View Full Version : Bukhari's Book of Tawheed
Salaam alaikum,
I recently finished reading Bukhari's book 93 on tawheed and had a few general questions:
What is the womb that Allah talks to in number 593?
What Allah mean by saying, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord Who forgives sins and punishes for it I therefore have forgiven My slave (his sin), he can do whatever he likes." in number 598?
Why does Muhammad say, "So please forgive the sins which I have done in the past or I will do in the future, and also those (sins) which I did in secret or in public, and that which You know better than I"? Is there a web site with the transliterated Bukhari?
What in the world does number 539 mean?
What does "Shin" mean, used in 531?
I also wanted to make a comparison:
Muhammad said, Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of." 589
Paul said, No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. (First Corinthians 2.9)
Interesting?
JBJ
Dear JBJ
It will take me awhile to look up all these and explain them so i will try to do most of them today but we'll see and inshaAllah my brothers and sisters will help out and will get ur questions answered.
593:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Allah created the creation, and when He finished from His creation the Rahm (womb) got up, and Allah said (to it). "Stop! What do you want? It said; "At this place I seek refuge with You from all those who sever me (i.e. sever the ties of Kinship.)" Allah said: "Would you be pleased that I will keep good relation with the one who will keep good relation with you, and I will sever the relation with the one who will sever the relation with you. It said: 'Yes, 'O my Lord.' Allah said (to it), 'That is for you.'' And then Abu Huraira recited the Verse:-- "Would you then if you were given the authority, do mischief in the land, and sever your ties of kinship." (47.22)
I was actuall surprised they translated it like this... Rahim has two meanings and it certainly is not the womb (literally) here. Rahim can mean either the womb or kinship. This is the meaning intended here.
What the hadith is saying is the following: Kinship is personificated here to a person (as if it is a person and talkig to Allah) and it says: What would u do to those who break their kinship ties...and Allah's reply is that those who do not keep their kinship ties, Allah will not keep good relation with. Basically the hadith is asking us to be good to our relatives. I think the reason it sounds confusing is the literal translation from Arabic to English.
598:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard the Prophet saying, "If somebody commits a sin and then says, 'O my Lord! I have sinned, please forgive me!' and his Lord says, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for it, I therefore have forgiven my slave (his sins).' Then he remains without committing any sin for a while and then again commits another sin and says, 'O my Lord, I have committed another sin, please forgive me,' and Allah says, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord who forgives sins and punishes for it, I therefore have forgiven my slave (his sin). Then he remains without Committing any another sin for a while and then commits another sin (for the third time) and says, 'O my Lord, I have committed another sin, please forgive me,' and Allah says, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord Who forgives sins and punishes for it I therefore have forgiven My slave (his sin), he can do whatever he likes."
This hadith clearly is talking of repentance. It shows several things, first and foremost the fact that we sin... no matter what. U can see that in the fact that he snis, stops for awhile, sins, etc. This also tells u that person is a believer and has sincere wish to stop sinning!! How do u know that? 1. he seeks forgiveness, 2. he stops. But humans err all the time and he does go back to sins because we are not perfect.
It shows us that with sincere repentance we can actually have our sins erased. But what consistutes repentance?
1. Sincerity to Allah, realization we sinned, and that no one can forgive us beside Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala
2. Acknowledging the sin to our selves
3. Sincere wish to repent and stop the sin
4. Asking Allah to forgive and doing our best to stop from commiting it.
5. Telling ourselves that we shall never ever go back to sinning.
These are the key things that are involved when you say I repent! Its not just a word. Thus... if a slave does all this, then Allah says He will forgive him these sins that he keeps falling into by mistake.
Now the last statement, he can do what he wants.... obviously it doesn't mean he can go sin intentionally and say i repent because this becomes hypocrosy and not beleif. (remember we said this is a believer).
But it means, its ok to sin. We all do it. There is another hadith that says that Allah forgives us all sins which are done unintentionally or with no knowledge. For example if i do a sin and then realize its wrong!! This is a forgivable sin. But.. to actually sin while knowing its wrong.... then it will need lots of good and repentance and we have hope in the Most Merciful, the Most Forgiving, the Generous!
"Why does Muhammad say, "So please forgive the sins which I have done in the past or I will do in the future, and also those (sins) which I did in secret or in public, and that which You know better than I"? Is there a web site with the transliterated Bukhari?"
you asked and forgot to refer the hadith... but based on this bit i'll say... its a supplication. We talked on IWC before that sins do not mean major sins. But minor ones here in the case of prophets. This is simply saying God forgive me all sins whenever I did them, wherever. The prophet Mohammad is our teacher.... he taught us everything from the most basic to the most essential. So he was a real example... he did everything we should do. Even though he was always forgiven his sins.... he still seeked forgiveness so that we know we must do so too... and so we can learn the manners too. Now adays, if you bring up a tradition which the prophet didn't do... muslims will not follow and they will say to you this is bid'a! Thus, if the prophet didn't seek forgiveness this way, and someone comes up with it, no one will do it. But the prophet actually doing it sets it as a valid way to do things.
We have lots of compiled books on supplications and this is one of the very common ones. We use it lots and thus you can see the importance of the prophet using it so that it get transmitted and so we can follow it.
539: I will try to explain it bit by bit:
"The Prophet said, "Time has come back to its original state which it had when Allah created the Heavens and the Earth, the year is twelve months, of which four are sacred; (and out of these four) three are in succession, namely, Dhul-Qa'da, Dhul-Hijja and Muharram, and (the fourth one) Rajab Mudar which is between Jumad (Ath-Tham) and Sha'ban."
This bit is teaching them the islamic calindar. These are the names of the islamic months. He is saying, time is fixed for us now. There are twelve months in a year, four of them are sacred. Sacred months are months where more worship is done, no wars are allowed, and they are training months for good deeds. Ramadan is a special month, and the four sacred ones are: Dhul Qa'eda, Dhul-Hijja, Muharram, and Rajab. You can see three are consecutive and one is not.
"The Prophet then asked us, "Which month is this?" We said, "Allah and His Apostle know (it) better." He kept quiet so long that we thought he might call it by another name. Then he said, "Isn't it Dhul-Hijja?" We said, "Yes." He asked "What town is this?" We said, "Allah and His Apostle know (it) better.' Then he kept quiet so long that we thought he might call it by another name. He then said, "Isn't it the (forbidden) town (Mecca)?" We said, "Yes." He asked, "What is the day today?" We said, "Allah and His Apostle know (it) better. Then he kept quiet so long that we thought that he might call it by another name. Then he said, "Isn't it the Day of An-Nahr (slaughtering of sacrifices)?" We said, "Yes.""
Here, the prophet is trying to prove something to them. He asked what month is it, what town, what day of the month. First note the manner of speaking that they do not all start talking and stuff... they say Allah and his prophet know best. They do not start guessing and making assuption. They thought the prophet was going to tell them the names were changed. Aparently this is not the case.
When He asked them what is the month, day, and town, they said: Dhu-Hijja (the month we perform pilgrimage in), the twon was Makkah (The sacrid land - or as he called it forbidden land) and the day was al Nahr - sacrifice day.
You can tell from the hadith they are in the pilgrimage when the prophet said this.
Why is MAkkah called forbidden city,(I'm not 100% sure Muslims please correct me if i'm wrong) because it is forbidden for non believers, satan, and the anti christ to come into the city.
The day of slaughter is one of the last days of pilgrimage when the people performing hajj slaughter a sheep or something and give the poor. its one of the last rituals.
Thus, the prophet said, today we are in a sacred month, in a sacrid city, performing a sacrid ritual (hajj).
The reason it goes round and round in english is simply the language difference in style. Arabic is very elequent and poetry like (and i mean like most of the speech).
So what's the point of all this? Why teach them which months are sacred and then saying we are in a sacred month, sacred place and sacred time???! The rest of the hadith explains this.
"Then he said, "Your blood (lives), your properties," (the sub narrator Muhammad, said: I think he also said): "..and your honor) are as sacred to one another like the sanctity of this Day of yours, in this town of yours, in this month of yours."
Now he says, just like these are sacred times, and places to you, so is your blood meaning the blood of a muslim. This means, if a muslim is killed, it is a big thing and not just another person killed. your property, i.e. do not go stealing other's stuff!!! This is sacred. Your honour, this refers to men and women keeping their chastity, and men making sure women do not play around. This is why some kill their wives or sisters when they commit adultry cause they say i'm protecting my honour! Although I think the islamic punishment should be sufficient....
So the whole point is saying, do not kill each other, do not let anyone kill muslims and u stand watching, do not steal each other's things, and be chaste and good and clean society!
"You shall meet your Lord and He will ask you about your deeds. Beware! Don't go astray after me by striking the necks of one another. Lo! It is incumbent upon those who are present to inform it to those who are absent for perhaps the informed one might comprehend it (understand it) better than some of the present audience." Whenever the sub-narrator Muhammad mentioned that statement, he would say, "The Prophet said the truth.") And then the Prophet added, "No doubt! Haven't I conveyed Allah's Message to you! No doubt! Haven't I conveyed Allah's Message to you?"
So he is saying now, these are sacrid things, do not commit these sins, because you will meet ur Lord, and will be asked and accountable for all ur deeds. Do not go astray by killing each other.
Then he said for those present, its ur duty to preserve my sayings and give them for the generations to follow, so they too will understand the faith and the rules.
"What does "Shin" mean, used in 531?"
I found the arabic translation for it but i do not think i know how to answer this. will get back to you on that one.
"I also wanted to make a comparison:
Muhammad said, Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of." 589
Paul said, No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. (First Corinthians 2.9)
Interesting?"
The similarities between Islam and other religions come from the fact that all of them came from the right source, the same source. The similarities are the few "right" things left from the teachings of Jesus and Moses. Thus, it is not surprising to find some truth in the bible and Torah.
There are many more verses that when i read the bible they remind me of things in hadith or quraan. The only difference is that the bible is not literal word of God, but man's expression of the teachings which got changed over time. Some things stayed and these are the truths that muslims accept from the bible.
I hope this helps. Will try to find u the explanation of that last hadith and the meaning of the "shin"
peace
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-06-02 AT 10:57 PM (GMT)]Hi Huda,
Thanks for all your work, I appreciate. Still I have some questions about what you said:
There is another hadith that says that Allah forgives us all sins which are done unintentionally or with no knowledge.
Could you find this one for me, or tell me where I can look for it please.
We talked on IWC before that sins do not mean major sins. But minor ones here in the case of prophets.
I though Muslims believe that prophets (once in their prophethood) never sin at all?
Concerning, 539, about what city, day, month is this, it still sounds very strange to me. Bukhari repeats this hadith many times in other books, and it never made sense when I read it then either. But I'll trust the oddness is from the language difficulties.
The similarities between Islam and other religions come from the fact that all of them came from the right source, the same source. The similarities are the few "right" things left from the teachings of Jesus and Moses. Thus, it is not surprising to find some truth in the bible and Torah. There are many more verses that when i read the bible they remind me of things in hadith or quraan. The only difference is that the bible is not literal word of God, but man's expression of the teachings which got changed over time. Some things stayed and these are the truths that muslims accept from the bible.
Of course I won't agree that the Torah or anything else in the Bible was changed, but this isn't the place to go into it. How much do you read the Bible? I'd be interested to find other commonalities between verses and ahadith.
But I do think it's interesting in the difference between the two quotes. A Muslim could look at it in one of three ways: 1) it's only a coincidence, 2) Paul or someone Paul talked to repeated it wrong 3) God revealed it to Jesus differently than he did to Muhammad. If the difference comes from humans, it's interesting that they change "righteous slaves" to "those who love" God. One speaks of God as a slave/servant master, the other speaks of Him as wanting people's love. If God revealed it differently, then it's interesting in the same way: to the Christians Allah emphasized love, to Muslims he emphasizes servanthood. Either way, t seems like a nice little summary of one of the biggest differences between Islam and Christianity.
What was the translation of "shin"? At first I just assumed "shin" was an Arabic word that even English speaking Muslims are familiar with, like "halal". Later it occured that the Bukhari translator might mean this as the English word shin as in body part. But that doesn't give the hadith any more clarity.
So I suppose there isn' a place with Bukhari transliterated? (I don't even remember why I asked anymore.)
Again, thanks for your time,
JBJ
servant_of_Allah
20-06-2002, 10:50
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-06-02 AT 10:54 AM (GMT)]Hello JBJ !
A scholar replied to your post as follows :
"I recently finished reading Bukhari's book 93 on tawheed and had a few general questions:
What is the womb that Allah talks to in number 593?"
From an external point of view, we can say that it is a metaphor, a personification of the faculty of begetting children which is proper to all the female animals and human beings. From a deeper point of view, one can say that what one considers as an "abstraction" in the physical world, is in reality a living being on the level of the psychic world (`alam al-mithal). So the prototype of the female faculty of begetting is really a creature of Allah, which does not exist in a corporeal, but rather in a psychic dimension .
"What Allah mean by saying, 'My slave has known that he has a Lord Who forgives sins and punishes for it I therefore have forgiven My slave (his sin), he can do whatever he likes." in number 598?"
It surely does not mean that he can freely commits sins. It means that, when certainty in Iman is reached, the creature becomes a Wali of Allah, and none of his actions will be sinful. He can do whatever he likes, since neither Shaytan, nor other living beings, nor his nafs will ever cause him to commit a sin.
"Why does Muhammad say, "So please forgive the sins which I have done in the past or I will do in the future, and also those (sins) which I did in secret or in public, and that which You know better than I"? Is there a web site with the transliterated Bukhari?"
This is a serious mistake of the translator. In Arabic one distinguish between "dhanb" and "ithm". "Dhanb is a violation of Allah's Law which can be voluntary or involuntary, while "ithm" means a violation which is voluntary. Sins in English means a violation which is voluntary, and so it translates "ithm". No "ithm" is attributed by Islam to the Prophets, who on the contrary are ma'sum (impeccable, i.e. unable to commit sins). When "dhanb" is attributed to a prophet (like in the related hadith) it can only refer to an involuntary "dhanb". Translating those "dhunub" as "sins" is a serious error. One should rather translate: "So please forgive the mistakes which I have made in the past or I will make in the future, and also those (mistakes) which I did in secret or in public, and that which You know better than I."
"What in the world does number 539 mean?"
Please, consider that numeration changes from edition to edition. In my edition number 539 of book 93 is the hadith starting with the words:
Narrated Abu Bakra:
The Prophet said, "Time has come back to its original state which it had when Allah created the Heavens and the Earth, the year is twelve months, of which four are sacred; (and out of these four) three are in succession, namely, Dhul-Qa'da, Dhul-Hijja and Muharram, and (the fourth one) Rajab Mudar which is between Jumad (Ath-Thani) and Sha'ban."
What does "Shin" mean, used in 531?
Translating the Arabic "saq" with the English "shin" only shows the incompetence of the translator. Remote from us the idea that Allah Ta`ala can have a shin to be uncovered, since this is surely the blindest form of anthropomorphism.
In Surah al-Qalam, ayah 42, Allah says what means,
"On the day when the 'saq' shall be laid bare, and they will be called upon to prostrate themselves, they will not be able to do so."
The Ulema of the Salaf explained that in the related ayah (and also in the related hadith) the correct meaning of "saq" is "hardship", "punishment" and the ayah to mean "a day of anguish and hardship." This explanation is known to have been given by Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Ibrahim an Nakh'i, Qatadah, Sa`id Ibn Jubayr, and a multiple of scholars. Both Imam al-Fakhr ar-Razi in his "Explanation of the Qur'an", Volume 30, page 94, and Imam al-Bayhaqi in his books, "Al-Asma' wa-s-Sifat", (page 245) and "Fath-al-Bari", (Volume;13, page 428) related this explanation from Ibn `Abbas. Ibn Qulayb also related that about Sa`id Ibn Jubayr who took his knowledge from `Abdullah Ibn `Abbas and Ibn `Umar. Yet, the Mushabbihah insist on taking the literal meaning and attributing "the shin" to Allah, by saying that "saq" literally means "shin", and that "On the Day of the judgment Allah will uncover His shin."
The correct meaning on the contrary is:
And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say: 'By his punishment' and so Allah will then uncover His punishment, whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but their backs will be rigid like one piece of a wood. Then the bridge will be laid across Hell." We, the companions of the Prophet said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the bridge?'
In other words, Allah will unveil for them the punishment of hellifire, and they will find it so terrific that they will immediately understand that none but Him can be able to produce such an affliction. It is the same meaning which is express by the ayah 6 and 7 of Surah at-Takathur: "Ye shall certainly see Hellfire, then ye shall see it with the eye of certainty."
I also wanted to make a comparison:
Muhammad said, Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of." 589
Paul said, No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. (First Corinthians 2.9)
Interesting? "
It is known that Paul was a student of Torah under Rabbi Gamaliel, one of the leading Torah scholar of the time. Exactly like the Ulema of today do not study Qur'an only, but Qur'an and hadith, including hadith qudsi, it is logical to suppose that the hadith qudsi "I have prepared for My righteous slaves as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of" was also known to the Prophets of the Bani Isra'il (Children of Israel), and that the Rabbis transmitted from them until it reached Paul, who echoed it is his letter. One should rather say "Paul or the author of the first letter to the Corinthians, since most of the contemporary Christian scholars agree that the letters which are traditionally attributed to Paul are so different from each other in the language and in the contents, that they must be attributed to different, unknown authors.
Bye,
servant of Allah.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-06-02 AT 03:04 PM (GMT) by Tayeb (admin)]First I want to say Jazak Allah khaira brother Servant of Allah for all ur efforts.
Now JBJ...
1. I will look for the hadith inshaAllah...
2. mistakes are not the same as sins. brother servant of Allah i believe explained this sin bit well.
3. As for Bible... I do not read it unless I am asked to look up something. I find the Quraan more than enough for me to read.
4. Muslims beleif on the bible: the verses were transmitted wrong, or changed over time with translations and so on.
I think what brother servant to Allah has should answer ur questions.
Netcurtains
20-06-2002, 22:59
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-06-02 AT 12:14 PM (GMT) by Rasha (moderator)]Hi,
Is this site correct?
Was Saint Paul going to take over the post as the chief rabbi (chief teacher) of the Jewish Nation?
http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/bethmiqlat/GoadsnGamaliel.html
<NetCurtains.... Could you please clarify how this has anything to do with Islam or the post plz?? :)>
Salam Servant of Allah,
Thanks for your help. Perhaps I should just go to Islamonline for my questions, but I don't want to take up too much of their time. One thing bothers me about the "shin" issue though, why was it mistranslated? I mean, I can understand confusing dhanb and ithm since they have similar meaning, but a body part and punishment are even close. And wouldn't the translator or someone reading his translation prior to publication pick up the extreme strangeness than Allah has a leg? I dunno, I'm not saying the scholar's answer was wrong, it just seems really strange.
And as for
most of the contemporary Christian scholars agree that the letters which are traditionally attributed to Paul are so different from each other in the language and in the contents, that they must be attributed to different, unknown authors.
Any Christian who believes in the Bible will deny that statement. As for people calling themselves Christians but not believing the Bible, well, that's not my business except those who are my own personal friends. But I find the writer of that a bit misleading as Muslims reading that may or may not realize it.
JBJ
servant_of_Allah
27-06-2002, 15:51
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-06-02 AT 04:55 PM (GMT)]Hello JBJ !
"Thanks for your help. Perhaps I should just go to Islamonline for my questions, but I don't want to take up too much of their time."
You could go to IslamOnline if you want to. But i didn't get the above answer from IslamOnline.
I know alot of scholars, Alhamdulilah. I ask a few questions from one, and a few from another, and so on and so forth. IslamOnline takes two weeks to answer a question. And yes, they're very busy people.
"One thing bothers me about the "shin" issue though, why was it mistranslated? I mean, I can understand confusing dhanb and ithm since they have similar meaning, but a body part and punishment are even close. And wouldn't the translator or someone reading his translation prior to publication pick up the extreme strangeness than Allah has a leg? I dunno, I'm not saying the scholar's answer was wrong, it just seems really strange."
It seems obvious to me that so far you haven't come to realise that there are many sects and schools of thought (I mean within Muslims) nowadays.
I shall give you an example:
You asked Sister Huda about the topic of Prophets committing sins. There are indeed differences of opinion amongst scholars on this topic. I was not aware of this for quite a long time, and only recently did i become aware of this fact.
Similarly, there are differences of opinion with regards to the question you have asked.
My belief is this : "And there is none like unto Him" (Surah Al-Ikhlas, ayah 4)
"Any Christian who believes in the Bible will deny that statement. "
The scholar i contacted lives in Europe, and is indeed very much in touch with contemporary Christian scholars. You see JBJ, you will have to learn to accept the fact that not every Christian agrees with you. There are many Christian scholars who believe that Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) is infact mentioned in the Bible. These are Christian scholars.
Similarly, the majority of contemporary Christian scholars do infact agree "that the letters which are traditionally attributed to Paul are so different from each other in the language and in the contents, that they must be attributed to different, unknown authors."
You may say that they do not believe in the Bible, or that they're confused, but the fact is, you're the odd one out, not them. You're the one who has to think again.
I am sorry, but i have observed this absurd behaviour from you many times, and i chose to remain silent on many occassions, simply because i think it is pointless to say anything to you at times, because you will not be willing to accept it. But, i think that you've started believing that silence on our behalf means ignorance.
I do not want to launch a personal attack on you, because this is not my habit, and it is incorrect. It is for this reason i will stop myself here, before i present a list of complaints.
Anyway, back to the original point : The Muslim scholar i contacted is in touch with a lot of Christian scholars. I do not think that he made this statement without at least consulting them. He surely must have consulted them and asked them this question, heard what they had to say, and then made such a statement (which you object to). These are responsible people JBJ.
It is not he who is misleading Muslims, but you. Believe me, i have talked to some Christians about your beliefs (as well as jcecil3's), and they say that these (the questions i asked them about your beliefs or sayings) are not Christian beleifs. So perhaps it is time you check yourself out, before telling the Muslims that we're being misled by our scholars.
As for passing a judgement (or at least implying so) that the Christian scholars (or any Christian for that matter) who made such a comment do not believe in the Bible. I did not know you could see what is in the hearts of men. It could be, that they know more about the Bible than you do, and it is on this basis that they made such a comment.
I would like to remind you what you always say at the end of every article of yours : "Feelings change, but the truth does not".
Read that more closely JBJ and understand what it says. It is time you did so, because the truth does not change at all.
May Allah guide all of us to the truth, Ameen.
Bye,
servant of Allah.
Hi Servant of Allah
Hmm, an interesting post. First what does the shin thing have to do with sects? I'm not playing dumb or what not, I really don't follow your train of thought. If I don't realize that they are many sects and schools, it's probably because Muslims always emphasize to me that Muslims are divided like Christians, that's all. Are you saying there are differences of opinion of the shin issue? Or something else?
not every Christian agrees with you.
Oh, I'm quite aware. But anyone who doesn't believe Paul's books weren't written by him doesn't believe in the Bible. Every book Christians attribute to Paul the Bible says are written by Paul. Meaning, the first verse of the books say, written by Paul. (Except the book of Hebrews, depending on who you talk to.) A Christian saying those books are not by Paul is like a Muslim saying the Qur'an was written by Muhammad.
I am sorry, but i have observed this absurd behaviour from you many times, and i chose to remain silent on many occassions, simply because i think it is pointless to say anything to you at times, because you will not be willing to accept it.
I read what the Bible says and use my head. That's absurd? What behaviour do you mean?
Okay, I'm going to try to be sincere as I can. If I'm missing myself something about myself, than apparently I'm blinded to it. In that case, I do ask you to show me where I'm being ignorant of myself.
Two years ago from this season I began a spiritual quest to find the true religion of God, or else find there wasn't one. I dedicated myself to being honest before myself and before God lest I find my soul be lost. Since then I became 100% sure that the Spirit of God was the way to salvation. For someone to suggest to men, as you did, that my thinking towards God and religion is lest than sincere means a lot to me. There are few things that mean more.
For that reason, I do ask that you give anything and everything that I've said on IWC that you think is ignorant, or self deceiving, or deceiving to others, stubborn, or anything else that would change my decision between religions.
If that means complaints, then please, list any complaints. If that means insults, then please insult me. If it means I'm offended, then I'm more than willing to take that in hope that I learn something if I need to.
Maybe it sounds like I'm being trite. Like I'm asking for this but don't have any intention on listening. Deep down, who knows? I think everyone's heart has the capacity to blind them, and who knows? Maybe that includes me. But I do want to be sincere as much as my heart will allow me. And if my heart does hold me back, then I pray to Almighty God that He'll rescue me from that. I said yesterday that it's never too late to recheck a person's work, and I'm always willing to check myself.
I'm just asking you, Servant of Allah, to bear with me, for at least as long as we see my heart has blinded itself from God and from honesty.
JBJ
You may want to email me instead of doing this on iwc
servant_of_Allah
29-06-2002, 14:36
Hello JBJ !
"If I don't realize that they are many sects and schools, it's probably because Muslims always emphasize to me that Muslims are divided like Christians, that's all. "
??
"Are you saying there are differences of opinion of the shin issue? Or something else?"
The question you have asked is a completely new topic in itself. There are differences of opinion between different sects, in these matters, and other matters. I do not indulge in such discussions. I am still learning, and i fear Allah.
"Oh, I'm quite aware. But anyone who doesn't believe Paul's books weren't written by him doesn't believe in the Bible. Every book Christians attribute to Paul the Bible says are written by Paul. Meaning, the first verse of the books say, written by Paul. (Except the book of Hebrews, depending on who you talk to.)
The New Jerusalem Bible 1 answers this as follows : "The best explanation may be that the Pastoral Epistles are letters written by a follower of Paul, conscious of inheriting his mantle and seeking to give advice and instruction for the administration of local churches. THIS ADOPTION OF A REVERED NAME IN SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES WAS A LITERARY CONVENTION OF THE TIMES."
Fr. Raymond E. Brown, a member of the Vatican's Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission, expressed his beliefs concerning the authorship of these epistles, saying, that in his opinion, of the thirteen epistles which say that they were written by Paul, critical scholars have reached a near consensus that seven are Paul's: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans. He says there is agreement that he did not write 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus (90% agreement on this), Ephesians (agreement is about 80%), Colossians (agreement is about 60%), 2 Thessalonians (a slight majority agrees).
"A Christian saying those books are not by Paul is like a Muslim saying the Qur'an was written by Muhammad."
I do not think this comparison is correct.
I don't care what you believe or don't believe, the simple fact is that there are Christian scholars (and Christians in general) who hold this view (and their numbers are growing). This is exactly what the Muslim scholar said. You said the Muslim scholar was misleading people, and this is a lie on your behalf, because what the Muslim scholar said is true, and i have already proved it.
"I read what the Bible says and use my head. That's absurd? What behaviour do you mean?"
Right, i do not think you will be able to notice the absurd behaviour, or simply that you do not want to notice it. Whatever be, i am not going to be repeating myself.
"Okay, I'm going to try to be sincere as I can. If I'm missing myself something about myself, than apparently I'm blinded to it. In that case, I do ask you to show me where I'm being ignorant of myself."
That's not my job, JBJ.
"Two years ago from this season I began a spiritual quest to find the true religion of God, or else find there wasn't one. I dedicated myself to being honest before myself and before God lest I find my soul be lost. Since then I became 100% sure that the Spirit of God was the way to salvation. For someone to suggest to men, as you did, that my thinking towards God and religion is lest than sincere means a lot to me. There are few things that mean more."
What are you worried about? Are you worried about what i think about your beliefs? Or is it that you're worried about what other Christians think of your beliefs?
With regards to behaviour and attitude, are you worried about what i think of it, or what other Christians think?
"For that reason, I do ask that you give anything and everything that I've said on IWC that you think is ignorant, or self deceiving, or deceiving to others, stubborn, or anything else that would change my decision between religions."
Always remember, JBJ, that Allah guides whom He Wills.
"If that means complaints, then please, list any complaints. If that means insults, then please insult me. If it means I'm offended, then I'm more than willing to take that in hope that I learn something if I need to."
I do have complaints about you, but i do not like to insult. If i have indulged in insulting, then may Allah forgive me, Ameen.
As for passing on a list of complaints to you, then i will not be doing that. In my personal opinion, you should review your behaviour on your own, and see where and how you've gone wrong.
"Maybe it sounds like I'm being trite. Like I'm asking for this but don't have any intention on listening. Deep down, who knows? I think everyone's heart has the capacity to blind them, and who knows? Maybe that includes me. But I do want to be sincere as much as my heart will allow me. And if my heart does hold me back, then I pray to Almighty God that He'll rescue me from that. I said yesterday that it's never too late to recheck a person's work, and I'm always willing to check myself."
May Allah guide you, and me, and all of mankind, Ameen.
"I'm just asking you, Servant of Allah, to bear with me, for at least as long as we see my heart has blinded itself from God and from honesty."
JBJ, i do not know whether to believe you or not (in this particular matter). I do not know what is in your heart, nor do i know your intentions. I have been observing you for a long time, and after quite a long and careful (as much as possible) analysis (and also consultation with other Muslims), i do not think you have sincere intentions in asking any question.
You once asked me for the benefit of the doubt (in a particular matter, perhaps you still remember it), and i had given it to you. After that, i remained silent (along with i think many other Muslims) for a very long time. But i think that there is a limit.
As for bearing with you, i cannot answer that. There are alot of people i have been bearing for a long time, including you.
I don't even know why you have come to this Muslim Discussion Forum. I remember very clearly you stating in the past that you never said you came here to learn about Islam. If you've not come to learn about Islam, then what have you come here to do? Teach us Christianity?
Anyway, i do not think i want to continue.
Bye,
servant of Allah.
Hi Servant of Allah,
I don't have a lot of time now, but if you don't want to critique anything I've said, then that's fine. It's certainly your right and you have no obligation to me in that matter. As for not knowing whether I'm really being sincere, I can't say any more than you can. Like I said, I think people can blind themselves, and it's possible that's what I've done.
For Paul, if the Jeru Bible is right about using others names being a common thing, then I take back my statement. I am still quite young and have much to learn. There are still many ideas I haven't heard yet. The same about the Muslim scholar misleading people. I apologize.
Do I care what other's think of my beliefs? In a sense yes, and in a sense, no. I do in the sense that other people's objections to what I believe can be an indicator that I'm not being rational. But no in the sense that I don't go along with the majority for the sake of being in the majority. Several prophets alluded to the idea of a remnant of God's people, the minority at odds with the indifferent majority.
The same goes for behavior and attitude. If a lot of people object, there's a good chance they're right in doing so.
I agree, Allah guides whom He wills.
Oh, and the first bit you quoted me on, the "are" is supposed to be "aren't." Just a typo on my part.
When I get back from camp, I will review what I've said in the past. When I start that, do have any suggestions on where I should start?
JBJ
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