Circumcision and the Qu'ran

[Netcurtains]

Hi
As far as I can tell circumcision is not mentioned in the Qu'ran.
As far as I can tell Moses never circumcised anyone (Torah).

From science we get this:
"contribute to later aggressive, violent, and/or suicidal behaviour"
http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/

I'm confident that there is only a tiny tiny risk of the above.
This would not be important in societies where circumcision is not
usual but I think it is commonplace in the middle east?

Three questions:

Is circumcision in the qu'ran?
Is circumcision commonplace in the middle east?
Do you think the scientists have a point?

Netty.

[Huda]

Around a month ago i think I typed out this article from the newspaper... I hope you will find it relevant...(this is science i believe)

--------------------------------------------------------------


I found this article today in the Toronto Star Newspaper.... It caught my attention because circumcision is part of the things all muslims do to their kids at young age.... however, we get great resistance and people saying we are very harsh etc etc..... I thought this will amaze you. They said young men, who have more than 6 sex partners, are at high risk... no wonder Allah said no more than 4 wives!!!! Allah created us and he knows best what is beneficial to us!!

---------------------------------------------------------------

Sex with uncircumcised men increases cervical caner risk
More likely to spread virus responsible for genital wars: Study

By Karen Palmer
Health policy reporter

----------------------------------------------------------------


Sex with uncircumcised man puts female partners at greater risk for cervical cancer, a new study has found, fuelling debate about the medical worthiness of circumcision, a procedure that has increasingly come under criticism.

Spanish researches found uncircumcised men were more likely to spread the human papillomavirus, which leads to genital warts and can increase the risk of cervical caner. Their findings were published in today's edition of the New England Journal of Medicine.

The procedure is widely believed to be painful for a child, since it is sometimes performed without anesthetic, involves sensitive nerve endings and creates an open wound that is exposed to uric acid.

The Canadian Pediatric Society says circumcision isn't medically necessary.

This latest research isn't likely to convice new parents of the procedure's benefits, Dr. Margaret Somerville, a medical ethicist at Montreal's McGill University, says yesterday.

"What bothers me is we're researching for a medical justification for circumcision," she said. "I think we have to say for a lot of people this is a profound religious ceremony and we have to have a lot of respect for that.

"I don't think we should be putting a cloak of medical benefit on things that are not primarily medical."

Lead researcher Dr. Zavier Castellsague of the Catalan Institute for Oncology in Barcelona, said it would not make sense to promote circumcision in places where Pap smears are widely used.

However, he said circumcision could make a big difference in developing countries where there is no regular screening for cervical cancer.

"If it is shown in trials to be effective, it could be a relatively simple and safe procedure to prevent these lifethreatening infections," he said.

Researches studied the sexual habits of 1139 men from Brazil, Colombia, Thailand, Philippines and Spain. They found 166 of the 647 uncircumcised men ahd penile HPV, while only 16 of the 292 circumcised men carried the virus.

They then looked at nearly 3800 women, half of whom had cervical cancer and half of whom were cancer free, and found women whose high risk partners were not circumcised were five times more likely to get cancer than those whose partners were circumcised. High risk was defined as men who lost their virginity at 17 and had more than six sexual partners!!

Researches offered few explanations as to why a foreskin would encourage the transmission of HPV, but speculated that uncircumcised men may be more susceptible to infection because the foreskin folds back during sex, exposing the penis to vaginal secretions and offering the virus more access to the penis.

Circumcised men have "markedly decreased" areas that are vulnerable to HPV, the study says.

[Netcurtains]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-04-02 AT 09:33 PM (GMT)]Using google you get the total reverse:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=circumcision+hiv

I'm more interested in the violence side. the Freudian "ID" - sex and violence.

Can you answer some of my questions? Is it in the qu'ran?

Just seen this in todays news (note it was done by a "male circumcisor" - the girl could be Christian, Islam or Jew or nothing - it is not relevent as I think they all practice it in Etheopia )

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1959000/1959589.stm

[Nzingha]

>
>Is circumcision in the qu'ran?

Not explicitly, however there are interpretations in reference to Ibrahim pbuh who was 'tested by God' to be in reference to circumcision


>Is circumcision commonplace in the middle east? >>

yes

>Do you think the scientists have a point?
>

No

[Netcurtains]

It is a fact that about 85% of Amercian Men are circumcised.
Arabs are circumcised.
Jews are circumcised.
They are all killing each other.

Europeans, Australians and Japanese are not.
We're just getting on with life.

circumstanial evidence - true, but not conclusive.

Netty.

[Lulua]

Killing each other? How is that?

Have never heard of(although I assume that it is possible) of anyone dying of circumcision.

It is a simple procedure, if performed in clean environment and by a knowledgeable person of the procedure, which is common-place and relatively low-danger.

And, as many doctors and scientists are coming to know, it is something which is only promoting cleanliness. As proved by the previously recorded article.

As for it's presence in the Quran, perhaps it is not necessarily mentioned by name. But, as we muslims take the Quran and Hadith hand in hand for guidance and direction, we find that it is included perse in the hadith, and therefore because of the mention in the Quran that we are to follow and take that which the prophet (SAAW) gives us and directs us to, then we abide by the practice of circumcision.

Let me clarify one point that is of question to many non-muslims (both those seeking to enter into Islam as well as those who are merely discovering and exploring Islam for whatever reason). Although it is common practice among muslims to circucise their young boys (mostly at a very early age, many times soon after birth), yet it is something not necessarily required for an adult man who desires to enter into Islam to do. The circumcision, although widely practised and observed, is something of a 'sunnah', meaning that it is a tradition of the prophet (SAAW) which we follow, and not 'wajib', or required by statement of the Quran. It is best for ppl to have their sons circumcised...but not totally necessary. And...as a source of mercy and common sense and understanding, it is not a requirement for an adult man who is intending upon entering into Islam (i.e. become a muslim) who had not previously been circumcised to now do so. This is because of the great discomfort and pain that he would need to go through at this age. For the young new-born, the pain or discomfort is marginably and remarkably less, even to the extent of nearly non-existent. I say this from experience of what I have witnessed of my own children, and those of the community surrounding me.

Lulua.

[Nzingha]

>It is a fact that about 85% of Amercian Men are circumcised.
>Arabs are circumcised.
>Jews are circumcised.
>They are all killing each other.
>
>Europeans, Australians and Japanese are not.
>We're just getting on with life.
>
>circumstanial evidence - true, but not conclusive.
>


This is the weirdest thing that you supposed so far.

Europeans have a history of violence.. how do you account for that? so do Japanese.

considering that not all in america are circumcised can you prove that it is the circumcised only that is prone to violence?

[Dr Qaisar]

Hi Netty,


>It is a fact that about 85% of Amercian Men are circumcised.
>Arabs are circumcised.
>Jews are circumcised.
>They are all killing each other.
>
>Europeans, Australians and Japanese are not.
>We're just getting on with life.
>
>circumstanial evidence - true, but not conclusive.


No, its Nutty!! And nowhere even close to anything resembling circumstanstial evidence. Crap, actually. The 'docile' Europeans of today were responsible for the worst mass killing of humankind in the two World Wars!! We know about the Japanese war crime atrocities in 2nd World War. The Australian almost exterminated the Aborigines before 'civilising' Australia. Were they circumcised?? Most of them were not. So what's your nutty point, Netty?? Your "analogy" is like trying to find a probable cause for the behaviour of a serial killer or rapist by pulling his pants down and observing if he is circumcised or not!!!! Would that be circumstantial evidence for you??
Get real for a change.

Regarding the article in your link, its content are quite nonsense, to say the least. For instance, associating Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder with circumcision!!


Dr.Qaisar

[Netcurtains]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-05-02 AT 09:05 PM (GMT)]Hi,
Well just to clarify - I am not a doctor and I have no
special medical knowledge.

However I do think sex, violence and religion are interwoven.
I will not say more on this topic in this forum
as people do actually get upset by some of
my more wild thoughts and claims.

whoops sorry - just leave it at that.
Netty.

[Lulua]

Well, naturally, sex, violence, and religion are interwoven...but the same thing can be said for intellect, eating, sleeping, and the many other common activities of mankind. The underlying common link would be humanity. Since all of these are having to do with humanity.

Lulua.