Can dead hear?

[Zainalavudeen]

Assalamu Alaikkum Warah....

I have noticed that immediately after the Eid Al Fitr prayer, people rushed to a nearby grave yard. From the distance I have watched them that they might have greeted the dead.

The following two Qur’anic verses discourage such act.

“Verily, you cannot make the dead hear and you cannot make the deaf hear the call when they turn their backs and retreat.” - Qur’an 27:80

“The living and the dead are not alike. Allah makes whomever He wishes hear, but you cannot make those in their graves (buried) hear.” – Qur’an, 35:22

I remember sister Nzinga to have written (in the old site) that dead can hear and was well documented. I too read a hadith which says as follows:

"I used to forbid you from visiting graves, but (now) you should visit them, as surely they are reminders (of the next life)"
(Sahih Muslim, Vol.2, pp.463-4, No.2131)

I need more clarification on this please.

Wassalam!

Zain

[Munir]

Wa-alaikum-as-salaam.

Concerning visiting the grave is Sunnah, It is recomendable to visit at any time, not fixing a day or a night. It became a custom in some countries and communities to visit the graves during some special day and in some nights. It is not prohibitted.

“Verily, you cannot make the dead hear and you cannot make the deaf hear the call when they turn their backs and retreat.” - Qur’an 27:80
This verse has nothing to do with visiting the graves, it mentions the state of an unbeliever. Anyhow the uslub of the Qur'an is different from our books. Visiting the graves as a visitors and saying "Assalamu Alaikum yah ahlal qubur, yaghfiral lahu lana wa lakum wa anta salafna wa nahnu bil assar." "Peace be upon you o those who are in the grave, you have advanced we are the next" is Sunnah.

Wa-salaam,
Sh Munir

[Zainalavudeen]

Assalamu Alaikkum Warah....

Thank you Brother Munir.

I accept your views concerning the sayings in front of graves, but it is for our own conviction and not meant the dead to listen as they don't hear.

I am much concerned about muslims who in front of graves, particularly the graves of Awliyas, make supplications asking things to grant. This is very common in India.

Let us pray Allah to lead us in the right path.

Wassalam!

Zain

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum.

BismAllah Alrahmah Alrahim

The question has been raised as to whether or not the dead can hear. Since none of us have ever experienced death ourselves, we cannot strictly or truthfully vouch either way. However, there are some directives in the Quran and the Hadith which give us an idea as to what faculties the dead actually have.

There is evidence…that perhaps the dead are in or on a different plane of existence than what we acknowledge and realize. Since we have not experienced, we cannot be sure either way. However, there is evidence which points towards the reasoning or understanding that there is a type of existence…which we cannot comprehend. The following hadith tells us that perhaps the dead have a way of speaking, and not only hearing.

From the Quran:

‘And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive it not.’ S. 2, v.154.

This in itself indicates that there is a sense of feeling and perception of the dead amongst themselves, yet we cannot comprehend it. Following are some indications from the hadith which also point to this conclusion.

‘Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri :
Allah's Apostle said, When the funeral is ready and the men carry it on their shoulders, if the deceased was righteous it will say, 'Present me (hurriedly),' and if he was not righteous, it will say, 'Woe to it (me)! Where are they taking it (me)?' Its voice is heard by everything except man and if he heard it he would fall unconscious."

And the following hadith is even more evidence that the dead do hear:

‘Narrated Anas:
The Prophet said, "When a human being is laid in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their foot steps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask him: What did you use to say about this man, Muhammad ? He will say: I testify that he is Allah's slave and His Apostle. Then it will be said to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell-Fire. Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.' " The Prophet added, "The dead person will see both his places. But a non-believer or a hypocrite will say to the angels, 'I do not know, but I used to say what the people used to say! It will be said to him, 'Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran).' Then he will be hit with an iron hammer between his two ears, and he will cry and that cry will be heard by whatever approaches him except human beings and jinns."

Also, there will be movement in the grave, to an extent…to an extent where the dead will move accordingly to Allah’s will only…not to his own will.

‘Narrated Al-Bara' bin 'Azib :
The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "When a faithful believer is made to sit in his grave, then (the angels) come to him and he testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle. And that corresponds to Allah's statement: Allah will keep firm those who believe with the word that stands firm . . . (14.27).

Another indication that the dead can hear, but proof here that they cannot reply…or at least not at their own will…but only at the will of Allah…and in all truth…

‘Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
The Prophet looked at the people of the well (the well in which the bodies of the pagans killed in the Battle of Badr were thrown) and said, "Have you found true what your Lord promised you?" Somebody said to him, "You are addressing dead people." He replied, "You do not hear better than they but they cannot reply."

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet said, "They now realize that what I used to tell them was the truth. "And Allah said, 'Verily! You cannot make the dead to hear (i.e. benefit them, and similarly the disbelievers) nor can you make the deaf hear. (27.80).

There will also be a sense of feeling in the grave…perhaps not as we perceive it now, but a feeling none the less:

Narrated Masruq:
'Aisha said that a Jewess came to her and mentioned the punishment in the grave, saying to her, "May Allah protect you from the punishment of the grave." 'Aisha then asked Allah's Apostle about the punishment of the grave. He said, "Yes, (there is) punishment in the grave." 'Aisha added, "After that I never saw Allah's Apostle but seeking refuge with Allah from the punishment in the grave in every prayer he prayed."

Some more evidence that the dead hear…and reply…yet only in full truth, as Allah wills, they testify for or against themselves:

‘Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah's Apostle said, "When (Allah's) slave is put in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask, 'What did you use to say about this man (i.e. Muhammad)?' The faithful Believer will say, 'I testify that he is Allah's slave and His Apostle.' Then they will say to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell Fire; Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.' So he will see both his places." (Qatada said, "We were informed that his grave would be made spacious." Then Qatada went back to the narration of Anas who said;) Whereas a hypocrite or a non-believer will be asked, "What did you use to say about this man." He will reply, "I do not know; but I used to say what the people used to say." So they will say to him, "Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran)." Then he will be hit with iron hammers once, that he will send such a cry as everything near to him will hear, except Jinns and human beings. (See Hadith No. 422).

Although it has been established and is accepted through the evidences of these hadiths, that there is an extent of feeling and perception of the dead, it is also recognized that they cannot do anything for themselves, much less for others. Perhaps they can hear, but they cannot reply to anything which they hear, other than what has been shown of their witnessing as to what was their belief and practice during their chance at life. In other words, they cannot intercede for those who pray to them, nor can they help them in any way.

We have also been told that the only one who has been given the priveledge and responsibility of intercession is prophet Mohammed, and that is not something which he can do while he is still in his grave, but something which will come into occurance at the resurrection…when all souls are brought to life in front of their creator.

The point made here by all of this is…that any one in their grave…regardless of their seeming or apparent piousness and goodness during their life…cannot help any living being. We can and are advised to ask our living brothers to remember us in their prayers, but any type of intercession beyond that is not acceptable in the understanding of Islam. And…remembering someone is not necessarily an intercession, but merely a remembering.

Allah knows best in all matters.

Om Mohammed

[Zainalavudeen]

Assalamu Alaikkum Warah…

Sister Om Mohamed,

Thank you for giving detailed explanation.

I have been given to understand that the dead can not hear according to the two Qur'anic verses I have mentioned above. Now you have quoted various hadiths to substantiate that they can hear. I am in confusion as to which I should believe.

>>‘And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive it not.’ S. 2, v.154.

This does not mean that they can hear. At the sight of Allah they are living in the minds and hearts of the true believers.

>‘Narrated Anas bin Malik:
>>Allah's Apostle said, "When (Allah's) slave is put in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask, 'What did you use to say about this man (i.e. Muhammad)?' The faithful Believer will say, 'I testify that he is Allah's slave and His Apostle.' Then they will say to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell Fire; Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.' So he will see both his places." (Qatada said, "We were informed that his grave would be made spacious." Then Qatada went back to the narration of Anas who said;) Whereas a hypocrite or a non-believer will be asked, "What did you use to say about this man." He will reply, "I do not know; but I used to say what the people used to say." So they will say to him, "Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran)." Then he will be hit with iron hammers once, that he will send such a cry as everything near to him will hear, except Jinns and human beings. (See Hadith No. 422).

I too have read this Hadith. This is with Allah’s Command, Angels Munkir & Nakir do their duties when the dead are placed in the graves after the death. Obviously the dead are made here to hear and answer.

As far the other hadiths, Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) might have encountered different experiences in such occasions with the dead, that was the privilege given to him by Allah.

My doubt is whether normally can they hear when someone stands in front of their graves.

>>The point made here by all of this is…that any one in their grave…regardless of their seeming or apparent piousness and goodness during their life…cannot help any living being. We can and are advised to ask our living brothers to remember us in their prayers, but any type of intercession beyond that is not acceptable in the understanding of Islam. And…remembering someone is not necessarily an intercession, but merely a remembering.

I agree and Thank you,

Allah knows best in all matters.

Wassalam!

Zain.

[Nzingha]

>
>I have been given to understand
>that the dead can not
>hear according to the two
>Qur'anic verses I have mentioned
>above. Now you have
>quoted various hadiths to substantiate
>that they can hear. I
>am in confusion as to
>which I should believe.
>
as salaam alaikum Zain

are we to understand those two ayat in the litteral sense? i mean about it being about the litteral dead not hearing?

cause when i look at the ayat.. i see something else..

when i look at the surrounding ayat. say like in surah 30 Ar Rum.. first Allah starts out by pointing out His signs and those who pointed them out before Muhammad pbuh 30:47.. winds that raise the clouds and how they break into fragemnts (30:48) how from the rain the earth is revived (30:50)

than aya 52

So verily you cannot make the dead to hear nor can you make the deaf to hear the call when they show their backs turning away

aya 53

And you cannot guide the blind from their straying: you can make to hear only those who believe in our ayat and have submitted to Allah in Islam


now what i'm seeing is not a litteral dead person not hearing.. but a figure of speech.. the dead of heart.. and not the litteral blind people.. but the blind of truth.. and not the litteral deaf.. but the deaf of the call of Allah..

these same verses (52 and 53) are repeated in surah 27 An Naml ayat 80 and 81 which I don't understand it to be a litteral dead either.

when i understand it in this sense.. the litteral dead hearing in ahadith is not contradictory. And when i recall when Muhamamd pbuh was given the choice of dying and living.. he went to the grave yard and spoke to those who inhabited it.. it doesnt come of as confusing.

what do you think?

ma salaam
nzingha

- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum.

Excellent enlightenment, Nzingha.

Also, according to this very verse which you interpret to mean that the dead cannot hear, Zainalavadeen:

'>>‘And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive it not.’ S. 2, v.154.

It is my understanding from this that what or whom we consider to be dead...as living...yet in another plane or state of existence which we understand. In other words, it is most possible that they CAN and DO hear...but we cannot comprehend how...not at this stage in our lives. (nor is it actually neccessary for us to comprehend how).

Also...as sis Nzingha has pointed out...that the whole mention of the deaf and the dead throughout the mentioned verses...is actually in reference to those on whose hearts are locks...who do not open their hearts and minds to know, listen to, and to understand and act upon Allah's message...nor commandments. They are the spiritually dead, spiritually deaf and blind. It is their own arrogance and refusal to understand and accept which puts a lock on their hearts and on their senses in reference to the message, amd therefore promotes to their eternal existence in death.

Allah knows best.

Om Mohammed

[Zainalavudeen]

Assalamu Alaikkum Warah....

Sister Nzinga

The Ayas you have quoted from Surah 30 Ar-Rum and the Aya I have quoted from Surah An-Namal 80-81 convey the same meaning and explanation you have given seems to be logical.

What about Aya 35:22 in which the very words grave and buried are mentioned. This of course gives the meaning of literal dead. Is it not?

Please give more details about when Prophet Mohamed Pbuh was given choice of dying and living.

Wassalam!

Zain

[Nzingha]

>Assalamu Alaikkum Warah....
>
wa alaikum salaam


>
>What about Aya 35:22 in which
>the very words grave and
>buried are mentioned. This of
>course gives the meaning of
>literal dead. Is it
>not?
>

well when i read the surrounding ayat again I am thinking it should not be literal. (i don't have my quran right here so this is off the top of my head) the ayat before it talk about how we are responsible for our own souls.. and we are to tell people about Allah but we can't basically force them into belief, that the seeing are not equal to the blind. the dark is not equal to light.. the one in the shaed is colder than one in the heat of sunlight.. and the living are not like the dead.. we can't make the ones in graves hear.. Allah continues to comfort muhammad pbuh in telling him his only duty it to tell people the message and he can't make them believe. This comes accross to me as a non litteral dead.. and a non litteral grave.. rather the grave being dark, cold, lonley one can't see the light of allah, one can't hear the message of allah.. one can't feel the life of Islam.. the warmth of the message of Allah and so on. I take this as a figure of speech..


>Please give more details about when
>Prophet Mohamed Pbuh was given
>choice of dying and living.
>
>
inshallah tonight i'll dig up exact references.. right now kids are awake from their naps :)

ma salaam
nzingha


- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

[umm_suhayb]

Bismillah
Assalamualaykum,
It seems that the wahabis have always used that ayah to prove a point that tawasul is not allowed in islam>
The dead can hear but they cannot response to the living! Al bukhari rahmatullah alayhi, transmitted from Anas radiyallahu anh,that the prophet sallallahu alayhis wassalam said:"When someone is placed in his grave, and his companions turn and go, and he CAN still HEAR the tread of their sandals, two angels come to him and make him sit up and say to him,"What do you say about this man, Muhammad sallallahu alayhis wassalam?"He will say,'I testify that he is the slave of Allah and HIS Messenger.'It will be said,'Look at your place in the Fire. Allah has given you in exchange for it, a place in the Garden." The prophet sallallahu alayhis wassalam said,"He will see both places."
"The unbelievers or the munafiq will say,"I do not know. I used to say what everyone else said." He will be told,"You neither understood nor follow the guidance." Then he will be hit between the ears with an iron hammer and will cry out with a cry which is heard by everything near him except men and jinn'.

Wassalam
Umm Suhayb

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum.

Umm Suhayb, you said: 'It seems that the wahabis have always used that ayah to prove a point that tawasul is not allowed in islam>'

Why does there have to be a classification on a person's understanding...if perhaps it is in agreement with some particular sect? I am not a wahabbi...yet I truly believe that the dead can hear, however they are in no position to help themselves, let alone others. Even our beloved prophet...has been given the priviledge and responsibility of 'shifaa'...a type of 'tawassul' if you will...yet that is only after the resurrection, and not to be during his time in 'barzak' (i.e. his time in the grave). It is something completely different. The dead...regardless of how pious or religious that they were are facing something tremendously awesome and frightening, and each individual's tongue, as well as other parts of the body, are to witness for or against him/her, regardless of his/her own free will. So...how could there possibly be tawassul? It is only something logical, in view of the hadith that you have quoted, Umm Suhayb. It is quite evident that this period in the grave until the day of resurrection, is a time in which no soul can benefit nor harm itself any more...what was done in the lifetime is ready to be counted and accounted for, and nothing more can be done...other than the prayers of the living for those who have passed, pleading with Allah to take mercy upon those who have already died, and to forgive them. That in itself is the reason and essence of the prayer for the dead.

It has been said (and this is from hadith, although not direct quote)...that a person leaves behind him three things which are a 'shifaa' (tawassul) for him...and those three things are: a continuous running charity (whether some sort of a charity organization, or perhaps even a masjid or islamic library..something continuous which people benefit from in their religion); something which he/she has recorded which people may benefit from (i.e. books, recordings whether video or audio about islam); or good pious children who pray for his forgiveness. This in itself is quite indication that the dead cannot help nor hinder themselves, so how could there possibly be any kind of tawassul of the dead to help those living? If they could help the living...surely they would first and foremost help themselves. For...surely what they have seen, in death and in the grave...is something quite awesome and frightening.

I cannot force my opinion on anyone, nor do I care to. However, it seems to be a matter of logic, particularly in view of the many hadith's, as well as references from the Quran itself...that the dead cannot intercede for anyone...and that therefore there is no such thing as tawassul. Not only that...the essence and true meaning of Islam is based on the understanding and knowledge and realization that there is only ONE GOD...and only ONE who can help anyone in any circumstance, and that we are to direct all prayers directly to HIM. In tawassul...one is actually directing their prayers perhaps to Allah in the end, but through someone as an intercessor. This practice is really in essence no different than what the christians do in their prayers and their worship. It is a form of shirk...associating partners with Allah. Aoudhu billahi min dhalik!!

The basic creed and belief of Islam is quite simple, and that is the aqeedah of tawheed...and it is the distinctive separating feature between islam and all other religions. We should beware and be extremely careful not to entertain thoughts, ideas, and inclinations to things which lead us astray from that basic belief.

This practice and belief of tawassul did not really come into practice until much later in the history of Islam, and certainly not during the time of the prophet. Let us look at the example of the prophet himself. In all of his prayers, and his dua's, and his many forms of worship...was there ever any recording or remembrance of he performing tawassul? I think that you shall find no example from him of such practice. Then...why should we also invent such a practice?

Om Mohammed

[Nzingha]

as salaam alaikum

i'm with Om Muhammad..


- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

[umm_suhayb]

Bismillah,
Assalamualaikum warahmatullah,
Sister Om Muhammed, tawassul do not mean we specificly ask the dead for something,tawassul mean only using rasullullah or sahabahs names to ask Allah for something.Our nabi has taught us the dua by using tawassul and it had been practiced by the companions radiallahu anhum!InsyaAllah, i will post the daleel later!InsyaAllah!
Wassalam
Umm Suhayb

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum.

In all of the dua's that I have learned of or read, coming from the recordings of sahih hadith's, the rasool has himself demonstrated to ask for Allah only, from Allah only, and using the name of Allah only (or any of the names and attributes which are belonging ONLY to Allah). Never did he advise or demonstrate in his own dua's that he or any to follow him are to use his name as a 'tawassul' or intercession between us and Allah. This important point is the definition and meaning of tawheed, that there is none other than Allah who can harm or help. Also, this is a main and important difference between Islam, which is the religion of tawheed, and Chrisitianity and judaism and other religions, which all use a form of tawassul, or intercession between the worshipper and the worshipped(GOD). It matters little whether that intercessor is alive or dead...it is in fact a form of shirk...for it is asking a favour from a created being to help the worshipper...something which is in the realm of the Creator only.

What the prophet did advise and teach his companions and later followers to say in dua, was to remember to send blessings upon Mohammed, and to ask for his promised eventual intercession, of which is mentioned in the Quran and hadith. And this intercession will come only on the day of Resurrection, after the judgement has been passed...according to hadith. It is something which has been promised to him, to intercede for his (MOhammed's) nation (muslims). Other than this...there is no known intercession...by anyone living or dead...nor before that time.

It is something which should not be of such a question...for it is something of rather common sense...that it is something of the essence of the lesson of tawheed itself.

Allah knows best in all matters. May He bless us all, and help enlighten us all to the better knowledge.

balqees

[umm_suhayb]

Bismillah
Assalamualaikum warahmatullah wabarakatuh,
Ya ukhti, Umm Muhammed,please forgive me for the late reply> InshaAllah i'll give the daleel of the permissibility of Tawassul!
We have to first examined what the sahabahs and scholars of the past opinions/evidences about Tawassul before saying it is illegal. And if it's illegal we must also bring out evidence!InsyaAllah!

Definition of tawassul according to ibn Naqib al- Misri, a shafi'i scholar 'Supplicating Allah(tawassul) through a living or deceased intermediary is "not tawassul through a physical body or through a life or death, but rather through the positive meaning attached to the person in both life and death, for the body is but the vehicle that carries that signaificance"
(ref: the reliance of the traveller)

First of all there is no disagreement among Muslims(all 4 school of thoughts) in their concensus on the permissibility of three types of tawassul, supplicating Allah through an intermediary:
1) Tawassul through a living righteous person to Allah Most High as in the Hadith of blind man with the prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam .

2)The Tawassul of a living person to Allah Most High through his own good deeds, as in the hadith of the 3 people trapped in a cave by a great stone , a hadith related by Imam Bukhari in his 'Sahih';

3)And the Tawassul of a person to Allah Most High Through His Entity(dhat),names,attributes, and so forth.

The only disagreement is supplicating Allah through righteous dead person. The majority of the orthodox Sunni Community hold that it is lawful,and have supporting concrete hadith Evidence with the "Hadith of the Blind Man";

The Hadith of the Blind MAn:
Tirmidhi relates through the chain of narrators from Uthman ibn Hunayf, that a blind man came to the prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam and said,"I've been afflicted in my eyesight,so please pray to Allah for me" The Prophet sallallahu alayhis wassalam said:"Go make ablution( wudu), perform 2 raka'ah of prayer, and then say:
"O Allah, i ask You and turn to You through my prophet Muhammad,the prophet of mercy;O Muhammad(Ya Muhammad), iseek your intercession with my lord for the return of my eyesight(and in another version:"for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me")
The prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam added," And if there is some need, do the same."

According to the scholars this hadiths prove that tawassul through a living person(the prophet-sallallahu alayhi wassalam was alive at that time)is legal in Islam.

But now the evidence of legality of tawassul through a dead person(prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam)is in "The Hadith of the Man in Need".
The hadith Of the Man in Need:
Tabarani, in his "al-Mu'jam al saghir," reports a hadith from Uthman ibn hunayf that a man repeatedly visited Uthman ibn Affan radiallahu anh, concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him or his need. The man met Ibn Hunayf and complained to him about the matter- this being after the death(wisal)of the prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar- so Uthman ibn Hunayf, who was one of the companions who collected hadiths and was learned in the religion of Allah, said:" Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution(wudu), then come to the mosque, perform two raka'ah of prayer therein and say:
'O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through our prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy;O Muhammad(Ya Muhammad),I turn through you to my lord, that he may fulfill my need,' and mention your need. Then come so that i can go with you[to the caliph Uthman]." so the man left and did as he had been told, then went to the door of Uthman ibn Affan radiyallahu anh, and the doorman came, took him by the hand, brought him to Uthman ibn Affan, and seated him next to him on a cushion. "Uthman asked,"what do you need?" and the man mentioned what he wanted and Uthaman accomplished it for him, then he said, "I had'nt remembered your need until just now," adding, "Whenever you need something, just mentioned it".
Then, the man departed, met Uthman ibn Hunayf, and said to him, " May Allah reward you!He did'nt see to my need or pay any attention to me until you spoke with him."
Uthman ibn Hunayf replied, "BY Allah, i didn't speak to him, but i have seen a blind man come to the Messenger of Allah and complain to him of the loss of his eyesight. THe prophet sallallahu alayhis wassalam said,"Can you bear it?'and the man replied,"O Messenger of Allah, i do not have anyone to lead me around, and it is a great hardship for me'. The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam told him,'Go to the place of ablution and perform ablution, then pray two rakaah of prayer and make the supplications."Ibn Hunayf went on,"By Allah, we did'nt part company or speak long before the man returned to us as if nothing had ever wrong with him."

THis is an explicit, unequivocal text from pophetic Companion proving the legal validity of tawassul through the Dead. The account has been classified as rigously authenticated(SAHIH) by Baihaqi, Mundhiri and Haythami>

As for the permisibility of supplicating Allah(tawassul) through either a living or dead person, it follows by human reason, scholarship, and sentiment, that there is flexibility in the matter.Whoever wants to can either take tawassul or Leave it, without causing trouble or making accusations, since it has been thoroughly checked("Adilla Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama'a,79-83)
In the position of Shafi'i school of thought, it is recommended to do tawassul through the prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam and asking his intercession>
(ref:ibn Naqib Al-Misri,and Imam Nawawi in his "Al-Adhkar(281-282)" and "al-Majmu".)
Bsides these two hadith, there r numerous account of sahabah radiayallahu anhum ,making tawassul through the prophet salallahu alayhis wassalam, for eg Sayidina Bilal asking the prophet for rain when he visited the prophet's-sallallahu alayhi wassalam tomb in Madina>And Nabi Adam alayhis salam making tawassul through the name of Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wassalam which he alayhi salam saw written at the door of Jannah>
Fatwa by Ahmad Zayni Dahlan As shafi'i mufti of Makkah in the 19 century:"There is no harm in calling on and performing tawassul by someone unless he believes that someone other than Allah actually creates things. Hence, as long as one believes that only Allah creates them, there is no harm in performing tawassul. Likewise, attributing a certain doing other than Allah does not harm unless one believes this doer actually creates. So once it is established the person does not believe the creating is for other than Allah then attributing a doing to other than Allah is understood in it's proper context. when one says:"This medicine benefitted me" or This particular righteous Muslims benefited me," he is merely exposing the created reason of the benefit. These statements are also similar to when one says:This food satisfied my hunger," or "this water quenched my thirst," or "This medicine cured me." When Muslims say such statements, they understand them in their proper context,ie, food, water, and medicine are only reasons, And Allah is The CREATOR of their benefit."
Fi amanillah
Wassalam
Umm Suhayb

Reference: The reliance of the traveller by Ahmad Ibn Naqib Al Misri, the classic manual(fiqh) of shafi'i school of thoughts, english translation of the book is by Shaykh Nuh ha mim Keller. The book could be downloaded at http://www.muhaddith.org

[Nzingha]

as salaam alaikum

i wonder than what is the muslims problem with christians who pray in the name of Jesus.


funny.. thought shia and sunnis didn't have that much in common.. on this one they surely do.

I'll keep to calling on allah myself..

ma salaam
nzingha

- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum.

Interesting, Umm Suhayb...this practice of calling on Allah thru the names of the prophet, or even any of his companions, regardless of their piety, seems quite familiar and similar to the practice of the christians, in their practice of praying thru the name of Jesus, or the mother Mary, or any other of the various pious people whom they call saints. Really, there is no difference there, and it is appearing quite as shirk.

Where in the Quran does it say to pray to Allah thru the names of anyone...his prophet or anyone else for that matter? Throughout the Quran...we are told to call on Him...meaning Allah ONLY...that is the beauty of Islam, really, the direct and personal relationship and open line of communication between the worshipper and the Creator.

What u are referring to for people asking others to pray for them(i.e. those who are still living and active muslims)...is something really other than tawassul. It is merely a remembrance in your prayers for your brethren. That is well documented, as one of the types of prayers that is known to be accepted. Some examples of such: the prayer of the parents for their children, the prayer of the sick, the prayer of the wrongly accused, the prayer of the muslim for his brethren in his absence...all of this is done, of course, by living, breathing people...not those in their graves. This is not tawassul, it is remembrance of others in our prayers, and it is well documented in many hadiths that we do so, and ask others to do so for us. There is no question about that.

The question remains: the validity of tawassul of what other you are describing, and that is asking of those long dead...to help, and to intercede for you with Allah, as well as asking in their names. That in itself is quite contradictory to the many hadiths of the prophet, who said to pray using the names of Allah...that hadith is in agreement with the Quran.

To ask Allah in the names of others than His beautiful names, is paramount to shirk, and that is the greatest of sins, associating partners with Him. I truly seek refuge with Allah from such a fate. This is in fact the main driving factor that led me to Islam...it's simple purity, and sure and true form, and the fact that I could have direct communication with my Lord, other than having to go thru some dead person...who cannot even help himself now, much less me.

Om Mohammed

[Zainalavudeen]

Assalamu Alaikkum Warah....

when one supplicates something thru’ the dead and by chance or coincidence if it gets done, he may start believe in it and continue to do the same again and again whereas it is the work of satan to attract him to his way and he beautifies things in this way. It is a practice in other religion to give excess respect to some good people who in turn when they are dead, are given godly appearance and over a period of time they become deities. It happens in front of our eyes in India. To eradicate this practice from the root, it is incumbent from our part to DIRECTLY ASK ONLY ALLAH without any mediator in between whomever and whatever it is, since Allah is nearer than our Jugular vein.

This is why Allah to lead us in right path categorically says in the Qur’an that dead can’t hear.

And Allah know the best.

Wassalam!

Zain.

[umm_suhayb]

LAST EDITED ON 02-02-01 AT 04:11 AM (GMT)[p]Bismillah
>Assalaamu alaikum.
Wa alaykum salam warahmatullah,

>Interesting, Umm Suhayb...this practice of calling
>on Allah thru the names
>of the prophet, or even
>any of his companions, regardless
>of their piety, seems quite
>familiar and similar to the
>practice of the christians, in
>their practice of praying thru
>the name of Jesus, or
>the mother Mary, or any
>other of the various pious
>people whom they call saints.
>Really, there is no difference
>there, and it is appearing
>quite as shirk.
Ans: The difference is, in christianity, they actually worship Isa alayhis salam, believing Isa alayhis salam, has the power to cause things,independently excluding the Divine Creator!THat is shirk!. But the power only lies in Allah! In Islam, we do not worship prophets and awliya,we firmly believe Allah is the Creator of all things!
We must first know what is tawassul; tawassul means by seeking help with the prophets and pious persons and imploring Allah by means of them>Second, Allah is the true agent of favor or miracle which comes at their hand, not they themselves, just as the true doctrine asserts in the case of other actions: for the knife does not cut by itself but the cutter is Allah the Exalted,although the agent is the knife in the domain of the customary connection of events>It is Allah who creates the cutting!


>
>Where in the Quran does it
>say to pray to Allah
>thru the names of anyone...his
>prophet or anyone else for
>that matter? Throughout the Quran...we
>are told to call on
>Him...meaning Allah ONLY...that is the
>beauty of Islam, really, the
>direct and personal relationship and
>open line of communication between
>the worshipper and the Creator.

Ans:Allah said in the Quran:
"If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgivess, and then the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful"(4:64)
Here Allah has linked their seeking of forgiveness from Him with seeking forgiveness from the prophet.So in this verse from the Quran we have clear evidence of imploring Allah by means of the prophet and acceptance of the one implores Him in this fashion>Asking for forgiveness for his community, you should know, is not tied to his being alive . The verse is applicable to general description, the prophet's(sallallahu alayhi wassalam)being alive or dead!THe ayah do not say it otherwise specifically!
>
>What u are referring to for
>people asking others to pray
>for them(i.e. those who are
>still living and active muslims)...is
>something really other than tawassul.
>It is merely a remembrance
>in your prayers for your
>brethren. That is well documented,
>as one of the types
>of prayers that is known
>to be accepted. Some examples
>of such: the prayer of
>the parents for their children,
>the prayer of the sick,
>the prayer of the wrongly
>accused, the prayer of the
>muslim for his brethren in
>his absence...all of this is
>done, of course, by living,
>breathing people...not those in their
>graves. This is not tawassul,
>it is remembrance of others
>in our prayers, and it
>is well documented in many
>hadiths that we do so,
>and ask others to do
>so for us. There is
>no question about that.
Ans: If one says that the help being sought in these text is someone alive and who has the power over his actions, the reply is that attributing the power to him if it is held to issue from him in a independent Of Divine assistance is the same of kufr, that is disbelief.And if it is only Allah's power to be a cause and means, then there is no difference between living and dead> If seeking of aid is not related to Allah literally and to someone else firguratively,like those people in India giving offerings to the dead wali's shrines, then the seeking of help is forbidden in either case!It is shirk!What u've mentioned above is tawassul,(al Wasila) seeking help by means of them, imploring to Allah!We r also in the way of helping them thru our du'as to Allah the Exalted!

There is another evidence for tawassul in the Quranic verse:
"They do not possess intercession save those who have made a covenent with their Lord".(19:87)
Since what is meant by imploring Allah with the prophets, the auliya and the pious and by asking them for help is a request for their intercession, and since Allah has related that they posess intercession,then who can prevent anyone from seeking by permission of Allah what they posess by permission of Allah?The only forbidden is asking intercession from idols,or christian priests which do not possess anything at all!

>The question remains: the validity of
>tawassul of what other you
>are describing, and that is
>asking of those long dead...to
>help, and to intercede for
>you with Allah, as well
>as asking in their names.
>That in itself is quite
>contradictory to the many hadiths
>of the prophet, who said
>to pray using the names
>of Allah...that hadith is in
>agreement with the Quran.
Ans: The question should not be centered on the validity of tawassul bcause the sahabahs and the ulama of the past salaf and khalaf had ijma' consensus on permissibility of tawassul."My community will not come together on an error" a hadith mutawatir of Rasullullahu sallallahu alayhi wassalam> There r concrete evidence(sahih hadiths) on the practice. If it's shirk , the companions radiallahu anhum would be the first one to oppose on it after the death of nabi sallallahu alayhi wassalam! And our Nabi sallallahu alayhi wassalam would not have taught the du'a if it is shirk!
I believe the question should address on how we make duas by using tawassul to avoid sounding like shirk!. If one actually believe that the dead or anybody has the power to cause things independently then this is shirk, should be forbidden!
Yes i must admit,the general muslim should be reminded on the need to stress on tauhid. They r some of them beliving their dead walis can cause things by offering them food at the shrines to the dead,just like idols. this is clear shirk>
>To ask Allah in the names
>of others than His beautiful
>names, is paramount to shirk,
>and that is the greatest
>of sins, associating partners with
>Him. I truly seek refuge
>with Allah from such a
>fate. This is in fact
>the main driving factor that
>led me to Islam...it's simple
>purity, and sure and true
>form, and the fact that
>I could have direct communication
>with my Lord, other than
>having to go thru some
>dead person...who cannot even help
>himself now, much less me.
Sister, here we must stress that we muslims, do not believe that the creations have the attribute of Power of the Creator or even share in it! It's shirk to believe it otherwise ! Imploring Allah by means of names of Nabi HabibAllah, Allah's love,not just anybody!HE is our prophet and he will intecede us ,the ummah in the Day of Qiyamah!When we read surah al-mulk, insyaAllah, the surah will intercede us in the grave!When we have our children as huffaz Quran, they will intecede us in the Day of Qiyamah InsyAALLah!
if one imploring other than Allah's names and believing that that so and so is the main cause of things,then this is shirk. Just as one beliving that the medicine is the only thing that cured him independently of Allah, this is shirk!Then if according to your understanding, we just simply could not seek help on anybody, nor even doctors when we r sick,cos it is shirk according to you!
While it is true that we do not have to go through some dead person for help, but the question is not some ordinary dead person, but The prophet sallallahu alayhi wassalam.He is a mercy to all mankind, the Key of jannah of his ummah,loving him as a nabi Allah means loving Allah Himself.The jews and christians rejected him, that is why they falls into disbelief and kufr! It is said in the hadith that if we made dua's to Allah the Exalted and we do not include the darood of nabi sallallahu alayhi wassalam, the duas will be suspended!
Allah is the only One we worship! Ameen!
Laa Hawlawala quwwata illah billahil a'liyil adzim!
Fi amanillah
Wassalam
Umm Suhayb

Reference:by Al Shaykh Jamil effendi al-Zahawi's book "al fajr al-sadiq fi al radd 'ala munkiri al tawassul wa al-khwariq"(The true Dawn: A refutation of those who deny the Validity of Using Means to Allah and the Miracles of Saints")

[Nzingha]

as salaam alaikum

>Ans: The difference is, in christianity,
>they actually worship Isa alayhis
>salam, believing Isa alayhis salam,
>has the power to
>cause things,independently excluding the Divine
>Creator!THat is shirk!. But the
>power only lies in Allah!

not all christians believe that isa pbuh is god.. but that aside.. catholics pray through saints. they don't think they are gods.. others pray through mary and they don't believe she is god either. So this does amount to the same things.

also interesting to note.. going back to my whole magic question.. here you say that "power to cause things, independently excluding the divine Creator! that is Shirk!" magic is the same thing.. people believing that others have power to cause things.. independently of allah... how is this not shirk as well??


>
>We must first know what is tawassul; tawassul means by seeking help with the prophets and pious persons and imploring Allah by means of them>Second, Allah is the true agent of favor or miracle which comes at their hand, not they themselves, just as the true doctrine asserts in the case of other actions: for the knife does not cut by itself but the cutter is Allah the Exalted,although the agent is the knife in the domain of the customary connection of events>It is Allah who creates the cutting!
>
>

why even bother to "implure allah by the means" of others? what is the point? is it suppose to be some stronger bargening chip? Since allah is the true agent.. the one who grants.. the one who hears All.. why in the world even bother? what is the point? since these "prophets and pious persons" have no power.. can't help you what is the point?


>
>Ans:Allah said in the Quran:
>"If they had only, when they
>were unjust to themselves, come
>unto thee and asked Allah's
>forgivess, and then the Messenger
>had asked forgiveness for them,
>they would have found Allah
>indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful"(4:64)
>Here Allah has linked their seeking of forgiveness from Him with seeking forgiveness from the prophet.>>



How is praying in the name of someone else.. impluring allah in the name of a saint.. or prophet.. or pious person. the same as Muhammad pbuh praying for the forgivenss of others to Allah?



- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

[umm_suhayb]

>
>
>- Never do I argue with
>a man with a desire
>to hear him say what
>is wrong, or to expose
>him and win victory over
>him. Whenever I face an
>opponent in debate I silently
>pray - O Lord, help
>him so that truth may
>flow from his heart and
>on his tongue, and so
>that if truth is on
>my side, he may follow
>me; and if truth be
>on his side, I may
>follow him.
> al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

Why bother quoting imam shafi'i anyway, if u do'nt agree with ijma'?!He'd approved of tawassul!So were other ulama of salaf and khalaf! As for tawassul, u can Take it or leave it!

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum.

Ans:Allah said in the Quran:
>"If they had only, when they
>were unjust to themselves, come
>unto thee and asked Allah's
>forgivess, and then the Messenger
>had asked forgiveness for them,
>they would have found Allah
>indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful"(4:64)
>Here Allah has linked their seeking of forgiveness from Him with seeking forgiveness from the prophet.>>

**You will note, that in this verse, it says: '...asked Allah's forgiveness...' it does not say ask the forgiveness of the messenger. They asked the messenger to more or less 'intercede' for them by remembering them in his prayers, and to ask Allah to forgive them. They were not asking the messenger to forgive them on account of Allah, or as a representative, but to merely remember them in his prayers to Allah, much as we all do today...asking each other to remember us in their prayers. That is something entirely different than calling upon the prophet now in our prayers, asking for his intercession...for he has no such power to do so now. He is long since dead, and no longer praying, as in this case of this verse in which his companions asked for him to remember them in his prayers. Also, it has not come yet for the time for his promised intercession at the day of judgement. So...why call on him or anyone else? Calling on anyone...anyone's name in the prayer other than the name of Allah is going out of the belief of the tawheed, and leading to a path of deviation.

It is only Allah who can hear and respond to all of our prayers...so why mention the name of anyone else? In this there is absolutely no disrespect for the prophet, in fact, it is holding closer to his example of true worship to the ONE and ONLY GOD.

Om Mohammed

[Nzingha]

>Why bother quoting imam shafi'i anyway,
>if u do'nt agree with
>ijma'?!He'd approved of tawassul!So were
>other ulama of salaf and
>khalaf! As for tawassul, u
>can Take it or leave
>it!

Why would I have to agree with your view of Ijma in order to qoute anyone?

I will leave the tawassul.. i have this odd thing about calling on Allah only.. funny me

Ma salaam
nzingha


- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

[Nzingha]

>Assalaamu alaikum.
>

wa alaikum salaam


>**You will note, that in this
>verse, it says: '...asked Allah's
>forgiveness...' it does not say
>ask the forgiveness of the
>messenger. They asked the messenger
>to more or less 'intercede'
>for them by remembering them
>in his prayers, and to
>ask Allah to forgive them.


i would think it is important to remember that these ayat were about specific events to begin with.. and the prophet pbuh was ALIVE and these hyprocrites were able to walk up to him and ask him to pray for their forgiveness..


>They were not asking the
>messenger to forgive them on
>account of Allah, or as
>a representative, but to merely
>remember them in his prayers
>to Allah, much as we
>all do today...asking each other
>to remember us in their
>prayers. That is something entirely
>different than calling upon the
>prophet now in our prayers,
>asking for his intercession...for he
>has no such power to
>do so now.

totally agree sis :)



- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

[umm_suhayb]

Bismillah,
Wa alaykum salam,
Yes, that's exactly what tawssul does, we asked Allah first, . We do not seek anybody to forgives us on behalf of Allah>, then asked The prophet sallallahu alayhi wasalam made du'a for us and it's Allah who forgives us!
Wassalam

[umm_suhayb]

My point is , u r implying that as if those people who practiced tawassul call others beside Allah!We r free from shirk! Nau'zubillah!What's the point of quoting shafi'i, if u think it's shirk for he had approved of tawassul , so were othe sahabah radiyallahu anhum. They r free from those people who accuse them of shirk!
wassalam

[Nzingha]

as salaam alaikum

>My point is , u r
>implying that as if those
>people who practiced tawassul call
>others beside Allah!We r free
>from shirk! Nau'zubillah!


I'm not "implying" i am reading what you are writing.. You supplicate THROUGH another person.. this is what you stated.. is it not? this is no different from what christians do.



>What's the point
>of quoting shafi'i, if u
>think it's shirk for he
>had approved of tawassul ,

what you qouted was a Shafi'i scholar.. i do not know that Shafi'i approved praying through someone else..

but never the less.. i like the qoute. so i'll keep it.. even if your offended that others disagree with you.


>so were othe sahabah radiyallahu
>anhum. They r free from
>those people who accuse them
>of shirk!

I don't believe the sahaba actually prayed through anyone.. you give me one scanty report of "the blind man" and want us to beleive that the sahaba agreed with this practice as you understand it? it would take more than that





- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

[Munir]

Assalamu-alaikum warahmatul lahi wabarakatuhu.

First of all my appologies of not participating for a long time in this Forum and not answering the questions presented here.

Can dead hear?

The sharah given by different participants, were enough, but as a Moderator I will like to add something which will benefit all of us (insha-Allah).

When the ruh is out of the body, we know the body as a Mayyit, because it has no Ruh in it. So where is the Ruh? Why do we give the gussl to the body? Why praying,the janazah while the body is in front of us? These questions are mentioned so that we may reflect upon it. The questions made by the angels, are answered by us, "Who is your Lord? What is your Book? etc, etc." If dead can't hear so why these questions? When we say the Duah of Maghfirah, it reaches them and they are informed of it. A Muslim has a direct line to Allah. HE gave some special power to the chosen servants, it should not be forgatable. So please dear readers, before quoting verses and hadiths, try to read the tafsirs.

May Allah guide us.
Wassalam.
S.Munir

[Munir]

Assalamu-alaikum:

The Tawassul
Tawassul comes from the word Wasilah, which literally means "MEANS". Our prayer is the means to reach Allah, the charity is also the way to approach Allah. In the same way we ask Allah to accept our Duas with the wassilah of the chosens by Him. Shirk means to associate with Allah, and giving the same attributes and power as given to Allah. When peolple say "make dua" it means the person wants our means, so that we make a Duah.
Wassala.
S.Munir