Let's Have a Little Talk [Archive]

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Lulua

01-09-2002, 18:42

Let's Have A Little Talk Son

Dad: Son, your mother and I are a little concerned about
something we found in your
room.

Son: Huh? Oh, man! You guys were snooping around in my room?

Dad: That's not important son. What is...is what I found.

Son: I swear to God its not mine! Um...What was it?

Dad: Well it was this son, and frankly it has us worried. I
thought we taught you to be
careful and responsible son. Needless to say, we were shocked.

Son: Gee Pop, it's just a Qur'aan.

Dad: Exactly! And what about this?

Son: Well, that's a pamphlet explaining the beliefs and practices
of Muslims.

Dad: Where'd you get your hands on something like this son? I
mean don't you realize
this was printed by an Islamic Charity based in Saudi Arabia?

Son: Uh, yeah. So? I thought you were against censorship and for
free expression of
ideas...?

Dad: Son, son, son. Haven't I warned you a million times about
this type of thing? Of
the dangers? Don't you know what's in this stuff? What it can do
to your mind? Have
you read what's in here? Haven't you read the papers about
Islamic charities especially
those connected with well...the Wahaabis?

Son: Well, yeah Pop, but they were available for free at our
school when a Muslim
came there to give talk and he invited us to the local mosque.

Dad: What? Oh my God! In the school? They let one talk at your
school? What in
blazes is going on down there!?

Son: Calm down Pop, it was cool. The dude was cool and he came at
the invitation of
the principal to help explain about the Muslims. You know, after
all that's happened. We
didn't have to go to the assembly. They even invited parents and
some came and I
brought the flyer home last week but you didn't pay it any
attention.

Dad: To spread their propaganda and influence the innocent little
kids...!

Son: Pop, I'm in High School!

Dad: Never mind. You don't know what's good for you. You see what
happened to
Taleban John!

Son: Pop c'mon, give me a little credit. I can think for myself.
You're the one who
taught me to make my own decisions and think things out and hear
both sides didn't
you? I thought that was why we went to school.

Dad: Well, yes but...

Son: Well the Muslim guy was just explaining what they believe
and how they look at
the situation, and what it's like to live in the West as a
Muslim, what life is like in Muslim
countries and clear up any questions people may have.

Dad: Son, they force religion down the people's throats and they
oppress their women
and believe in killing those who don't ...

Son: Pop! You sound just like Uncle Pete.

Dad: Don't "back-talk" me boy!

Son: The guy was barraged with questions and some people
reallylaid into him...

Dad: Ah hah! So he couldn't answer them could he? He dodged and
waffled didn't he?
He probably got all upset and cursed everyone to Hell right?

Son: No, Pop. He handled it really cool and made a lot of points
clear without arguing
or shouting. It kind of embarrassed the people who started
screaming at him and they
later apologized.

Dad: C'mon! Get out...!

Son: No, really Pop. And you know a lot of what he was saying
made sense..

Dad: Oh...my...God! Here we go! They got to you. Margaret! Come
talk to your son!

Son: Give me a break, chill out would ya? He just explained how
Muslims believed in God
and doing five prayers and giving charity and stuff. We had
already read about a lot of
it in Social Studies class but when they got to the questions and
answers is when it
got really interesting. For example, Buff Hardbody really tried
to give it to him for
Muslims spreading hatred by saying that Islam was the true
religion and America was a
big Satan and stuff.

Dad: I bet he choked on that one huh!?

Son: Well he pointed out that all religions believe they are true
and even the people
who don't believe in religion believe they are right not to and
they write books and do
TV shows and films about it.

Dad: Well that's different.

Son: That's what Chrissy McSwish's mom said too. So, he said
billions of dollars are
spent to spread culture and ideas all over the world to educate
people and to attract
them to it and see things their way and even admire and aspire to
it. Year after year
people are given images and messages to convince them that theirs
is the right and
best way of life and the best civilization and they help
countries that agree with them
and even fight against those that don't. A lot is done to
convince people of the
superiority of their system and to be like them. Newspapers and
magazines are filled
with their ideas and spread all over the world so everyone can
get a taste of it by
reading and seeing and they export their customs, foods, dress
everything until it kind
of dominates most other ideas...

Dad: See what did I tell you son!?

Son: He meant us.

Dad: Oh. But that's different son. We don't force anyone to
follow our way of life.

Son: Pauly Bookbinder said the same thing. So the guy made a
point that they don't
have a super army that can go around the world to force people to
be Muslims or follow
their policies or sophisticated technologies or satellites, but
the Muslim charities print
books and pamphlets, build schools, orphanages and clinics, build
wells and mosques
and send teachers and stuff.

Dad: Yes son but they also have terror squads!

Son: That's what Mr. Betterman said. That's when he made a good
point that you can't
scare somebody into being a true believer and the Qur'aan says
you can't force anyone
to be a Muslim and it only gives Islam and Muslims a bad name. If
somebody takes it
into their hands to do that stuff it doesn't mean all Muslims are
like that or that Islam
says do it.

Dad: But they teach violence boy!

Son: That's what T.J. Readerson said. So, the speaker made a good
point that more
people have been killed by non-Muslims over the years than they
have by Muslims and
that in many places Muslims are killed the most. He even said
when Muslims fight other
Muslims nobody believes that the ones who oppress the others are
following Islam
correctly.

Dad: It's all propaganda son and they oppress their women.

Son: Yeah, that's exactly what Trixie Brown-Fox said, but the man
had a point when
he asked if putting women in sex mags and advertising and even
comic books filled with
cheesecake and Hollywood hotties to be ogled at in sex scenes on
TV and in the
movies wasn't exploitation and disrespecting women.

Dad: Well maybe, but..

Son: And when other people do bad stuff you don't usually hear
about their religion and
all kinds of crimes and acts of terror are committed around the
world and right here
every day. Nobody usually makes an issue of their religion but
they make a point to
relate violence to Islam if Muslims are involved as though every
Muslim is the same. He
also pointed out that in Muslim countries so far, even though
American forces have
bombed Afghanistan and foreign policy doesn't stop Israeli
excesses and a lot of Muslim
civilians and even children have been killed with our weapons or
died because of
sanctions, there still hasn't been any wave of attacks on
Westerners living in Muslim
countries.

Dad: That's because they have to stay indoors and aren't free...

Son: It's Muslims who have been getting beat up and harassed and
profiled and
deported from a lot of countries that are supposed to be free and
getting put in jail for
stuff like having a registered gun.

Dad: Well that's dangerous son. You never know what one of them
may do. I mean
they hate us...

Son: And they wear funny clothes!

Dad: Don't joke with me son.

Son: Well you have a registered gun right Pop?

Dad: Sure, but that's different I'm a responsible citizen.

Son: And do you hate 'em Pop?

Dad: Now don't you smart-mouth me boy, that's different, I have a
reason. They hate
people who don't follow their religion or way of life.

Son: They don't follow your religion or way of life and you say
they're wrong but they
get arrested and mistreated and called traitors for it right?

Dad: Don't argue with me son...and you had better be careful who
you listen to from
now on!

Son: You're right Dad.

www.alharamain.org

Bodacious

05-09-2002, 20:16

I'm curious, Lulua...what kind of conversation would take place between a Muslim father in Afghanistan if his son suddenly became interested in Christianity?

sure786

11-09-2002, 14:49

Hello Bodacious:

If you meant a Muslim's son wants to become a Christian and is informing his father his intention, surely that father has the duty to tell him, be it in Afghanistan or elsewhere in the World, that he'll become an unbeliever and an apostate. Unless his son is mentally retarded, he'll know that he will believe in a human being who ate and slept and lived in this World. He'll worship a human being, I mean Jesus, peace be upon him.

So really your hypothesis is very deem in perspectives. Anyone thinking logically won't worship a human being. Christianity may manage to win over Muslims only through offer of wealth or power, or as it happened so many times through brutality such as of Inquisition. Recently, we saw in Bosnia and in Kosova a new attempt of physical elimination of Muslims, and it have could have worked had these Muslims fought back with bows and arrows just like the American Natives did.

Bodacious

11-09-2002, 17:22

Christians believe Jesus to be the son of God, hardly a 'human being' as we understand. So, your point is refuted. If the son of the Muslim decides to become a Christian, he does NOT believe that Jesus is merely a man.

The question still stands.

sure786

11-09-2002, 20:52

Dear Bodacious:

No my point stands. A Muslim is brought up to believe that Allah or God cannot begotten nor begets, i.e. God is not like us. He doesn't eat or sleep, or for that matter die. Jesus was human he slept and ate. Christians start by saying he was son of god but end up with trinity, and call him actually god:

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs". Holy Qur'an 4:171

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary..." Holy Qur'an 5:17

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" Holy Qur'an 9:20

In case you want to know about 'Uzair (or Ezra) here's a link that explains all:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/ezra.html

Bodacious

11-09-2002, 20:58

Then by your logic, what Lulua wrote can not happen either...for someone raised a Christian believes that Jesus is the son of God and died for our sins.

sure786

11-09-2002, 21:13

Dear Bodacious:

Now you got me I didn't understand you at all. I was responding to you on your follow up of a Muslim becoming Christian and I tried to explain to you that's difficult unless there's something wrong with his brain for no man can be god.

Indeed Allah has no partners nor He begets nor is He begotten. He's One and Alone.

Nobody can become a Muslim unless by the Will of Allah for He determinates our path. If the young man in Sr Lulua's post becomes a Muslim it's Allah's Will. That's how we Muslims believe.

Bodacious

11-09-2002, 21:16

It appears that Luluas post is meant to convey ignorance and intolerance on the part of Americans in regards to Islam. My question was trying to see what type of conversation would occur if the son of a Muslim man were to try and convert to Christianity. That question has not been addressed.

Rasha

12-09-2002, 12:04

I know of many families where this happened....

yes the parents get upset... yes they try their best to stop the boy... but this again is based on traditions and has nothing to do with islamic parenting.

In the time of the prophet, one sahabi (and one who was a qare'e i.e. knows the Quraan by heart) became christian. Nothing happened to him... his friends are sad.

like brother sure said.... it is next to impossible.

if you grow up muslim....and u do'nt like it...and then u convert.... i do not know how much muslim u were in the first place. to say you are a muslim means u are a submitter..indeed if ur forced u have not submitted yet...and.. i wonder how much muslim where u in the first place.

IF .... you did choose islam and suddenly changed.... I'd say you have a problem.... or u did a BIG SIN that Allah punished you by taking away the blessing of Islam from you.

Bodacious

13-09-2002, 17:33

You could say the same exact thing about the boy in Luluas post.

Lulua

14-09-2002, 05:39

Bodacious-The boy in the demonstrative conversation is experiencing that experience of walking out of the dark into the light. I.e.: he is seeing and understanding the light of the truth of Islam, after having experienced the darkness of current Christianity.

And as for the intolerance and ignorance of America/Americans as regards Islam...yes it is true...and evident daily. Even in messages such as your replies to this exemplary conversation.

I cannot verify for you if this conversation truly took place, or if it is fiction. But I CAN verify for you that something similar happens nearly everytime someone from a Christian family turns to Islam. This I say because of my own personal experience (to this day...even after over 20 years of being a muslim...still I am ridiculed and accused by my birth family)...as well as relations that other converts to Islam recall of their conversion times.

As I said, the young boy is walking out of the darkness into light. But then, bodacious...you would not understand that...because it is evident that you are still in that darkness.

I suggest that you read the following link: http://www.myiwc.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2618

It may help to shed some light, if you are interested in lightening up your path.

Lulua.

Bodacious

16-09-2002, 17:45

Lulua.

The arrogance displayed by Muslims is disheartening, to say the least. Why is it that only Muslims are ‘in the light’ and everyone else is ‘in the dark’? What makes you so much better than everyone else? The truth of the matter, is that Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus…you’re all the same. NONE of you know the truth about ‘God’, or what lays ahead after death. You may think you do, but you do not.

Sure, you can believe with all your heart that being a Muslim is the one true way…but what I think you and your friends fail to realize, is that the Christians, Jews, and Hindus all feel JUST as strongly about their beliefs as you do about yours.

You said above “And as for the intolerance and ignorance of America/Americans as regards Islam...yes it is true...and evident daily.” From where I sit, it appears that Muslims are the ones being intolerant and ignorance…what happened on 9/11/2001 is a prime example of that, is it not? We here in America, while not perfect and do not pretend to be, at least allow anyone in the world the ability to worship however they please in peace. No one here is denied the RIGHT to worship however they so choose.

Tell me, are Muslim countries as tolerant of other religions as America is?

Lulua

17-09-2002, 00:04

Lulua

17-09-2002, 00:11

Bodacious...you are not understanding...and perhaps part of the reason of that is my inadequacy of explaining.

It is not necessarily the muslims themselves who are 'in the light'...for there are admittedly so many muslims who do not properly understand nor implement Islam in their daily lives.

However, Islam...as the perfect religion, and the religion selected for us by God...IS the light.

For a person to 'think' that they are in the light, or have received the light is one thing, and for one to actually be recipient of that light, and eminating it is another thing altogether.

I understand full well that most Christians, Jews, and all others of all other religious beliefs (including atheists...which is non-belief altogether)...believe that they are in the light.

However, for those whose hearts truly desire the truth, when truths and proofs are brought forth for them, will not turn away from it, but will rather investigate and learn about that truth.

And that is available for all in the Quran. Easy to access...and easy to read. For those who desire the truth.

But for those who wish to arrogantly refuse, then that is their choice.

But let it be known that the opportunity has come their way, and it has been those individuals who have abruptly and purposefully turned themselves away.

This is not arrogance, my friend...but rather a warning and reminder to you and all others...that the truth is there for you, if you will investigate. I am sorry, but I do not know exactly how else to better express it. I wish that I was more eloquent in words to help you to better understand. It pains me much.

And as for the Arab and/or muslim countries of the world...there is no compulsion in religion. This is in fact a verse in the Quran...indicating the tolerance of Islam. And, as for the history of Islam, there is great and many records of tolerance in Islamic countries throughout the history of mankind where non-muslims existed under the legislature or rulings of muslims...and were free to worship as they saw fit. Same thing goes today...there is freedom of religion in all muslim countries...allowing non-muslims to carry on in their desired manner and worship as they please, as long as it does not go against major Islamic mannerisms.

I can vouch for you first hand that in the following countries many non-muslims live, work, study, and are free to worship according to their personally preferred religion:

Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Kuwait, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Qatar, Bahrain, Sudan, Nigeria, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, India and many other countries as well.

As for those countries that I have not listed...I have not listed them only because I have either never been there or have no personal contacts through which I can vouch the validity of this claim. But for those countries which I listed as being tolerant of non-muslims to live and worship as the please, I can personally vouch on the grounds that I have either been there and witnessed it first hand, or I have personal contacts through whom I have learned of the true condition of living in those regions.

Can you...Bodacious...vouch by personal experience of those countries listed...that there is no religious tolerance as you are claiming???

Lulua.

Bodacious

17-09-2002, 00:24

I can not vouch for their intolerance of other religions, but I CAN completely refute your claim that Americans are ignorant and intolerant of Islam. In fact, America is the most tolerant nation in the world when it comes to diverse religions living amongst each other.

Furthermore, for ANYONE to claim that thier religion is the one true religion of the world is 100% arrogance. Islam is no more the one true religion than Christianity, or Judaism. No one knows for sure what the truth is…well, the dead do, of course…and yet I see so many people, Muslims included, condemning anyone that believes differently.

Doesn’t the mere existence of so many different religions dictate the possibility that you, a Muslim, are incorrect?

Lulua

17-09-2002, 00:54

Bodacious...I am an American by birth, and have experienced as well first hand the great intolerance of Americans for muslims. As well as the great relations today of the high level of intolerance of Americans for Islam and/or muslims. So...whatever claims you may make of tolerance of Americans for Islam...I know for a fact...by personal experience as well as relations from the many muslims and the media...of the great level of intolerance of Americans for Islam and/or muslims. That is not, of course, to say that all Americans are intolerant of Islam and muslims...but there is...a great level of intolerance in America for Islam and muslims. Anything you say otherwise only goes to show your own inability to come to terms with the truth of the facts.

'Doesn’t the mere existence of so many different religions dictate the possibility that you, a Muslim, are incorrect?'

NO...not at all. In fact, the existence of so many different religions...indicates the progression throughout time of the religion of mankind...into the final and true religion of Islam. As far as Islam is concerned, it (Islam) is merely a finalization and culmination of the previous divinely revealed religions (i.e. Judaism and Christianity). In other words, it is a continuance of that original message...and a completion of it in the finality of the message of Islam through the Holy Quran.

Sorry to dissapoint you, Bodacious. But the truth is there for those who will seek. If you would like, explore the Quran. If you do not like, then no one is forcing you. But please do recognize that you have had the opportunity to explore and learn...and if you do not...then that responsibility of your ignoring it and refusing it will lie upon you...and not us muslims.

As for Islam, if you desire to know more about it, as I have said many times...the truth is there in the Quran for those who will seek. If you need help along the way...please do feel free to ask questions...I and many others will be most happy to oblige to the best of our abilities. But of course...we will not force anything upon you. As it is stated in the Quran...there is no compulsion in religion.

As well...throughout the Quran...you may someday notice, if you ever do explore it...many times reference at the completion of examples and truths of nature and other things brought forth...the phrase: 'for those who think'. The Quran appeals in logical explanation and scientific proofs to the logic of human thinking. In this explanation, it appeals to man to think...and to explore...and to discover for himself/herself...the truths available.

But again...it is there for those who will seek. For those who do not seek...then the loss is there own.

Take care, Bodacious. I think that we have rather exhausted this.

Lulua.

Bodacious

17-09-2002, 01:37

Lulua, 9/11 shows just how far certain Islamic followers will take their intolerance. There IS a slight amount of intolerance towards Muslims in America...of course, it's hard to blame them since 9/11. Of course there is intolerance on a small degree towards ALL religions.

I suffer intolerance from most religious people because I choose NOT to believe in one 'God'. However, as I said above, 9/11 proves that intolerance of Americans DOES exist on an extreme level around the world. At least in America, Lulua, there are laws that protect us from such intolerance. Does it always work? Well, unfortunately, no. But then again, at least such laws exist!

And finally, on religion, what most religious followers of today forget, is that at one time, their religion never existed either. People today laugh at the Greeks and Egyptians for believing in so many different Gods. I highly suspect that one day, we too will be laughed at for such beliefs.

Rasha

17-09-2002, 11:42

Bodacious...

you said: "We here in America, while not perfect and do not pretend to be, at least allow anyone in the world the ability to worship however they please in peace. No one here is denied the RIGHT to worship however they so choose. "

and I will tell you this is a total nonesense... the best example is Rose... a member on IWC, an American new Muslim. Where is Tolerance???

another example... a friend of my studying in US.... he is now not allowed to finish his med school because "they no longer accept Arabs" where he is.

more examples???

these are just two that came to my mind .... i am sure there are tones more.

There might be SOME Americans that are tolerant of Islam.... but the majority either hold their anger and hatred and try to show tolerance... or are not tolerant at all.

Bodacious

17-09-2002, 17:16

Rasha, I hate to burst your bubble, but anyone that tells you that a school is not accepting anyone based on race or religion, is lying. That is racial descrimination, and it's illegal. If a school were caught practicing such descrimination, they would be heavily fined, and forced to adhere to federal law prohibiting such actions.

In the future, please do not post blatant untruths about America.

Lulua

18-09-2002, 01:05

Bodacious...I know very well the laws of America...and I also know very well of the injustice and discrimination that occurs daily in many areas of America.

Just because you like to think the best of America does not mean that sometimes the worst is not happening.

Discrimination happens much in many places in America.

Perhaps you should lower yourself once in a while to realizing some of the ills of America...rather than boasting about your dreams of what you perceive America to be.

Lulua.

Lulua

18-09-2002, 01:05

Lulua

18-09-2002, 01:05

Bodacious

18-09-2002, 01:11

Lulua,

Yes, discrimination occurs, but primarily on a personal level...educational establishments can NOT discriminate based on sex or race. That is a fact. IF such a school were caught practicing such illegal acts they would be heavily fined and/or shut down/forced to allow the student into the school.

Just because you are told something by someone does not make it a fact. The fact is, there are laws that prevent such things from happening...and if they DO happen, then the laws are invoked.

I have read many of your posts here Lulua, and I mean this as no insult, but you are extremely misinformed when it comes to what is reality vs fiction in America.

Rasha

18-09-2002, 11:46

Bodacious...

I was simply saying the truth...and I will ask the brother to come here HIMSELF to tell exactly what the story is!

If you think there is no discrimination in US... think again!

and think about, going into a law case for discrimination... what are the chances that the judge will be "indiscriminant"?? :rolleyes:

I live in Canada... and we have the say things.... so... I am not trying to make US look bad... but.. i want you not to be fooled to think that its heavens! its not! maybe for u... a white, blond, American... sure is. But for everyone else... it is not... and specially not to Muslims.

Lulua is American.. she knows what i'm talking about. Rose is American and LIVES in US currently... she knows what i'm talking about... I have tones of friends in US.... they too know what i'm talking about...

if you however is always in the "heavenly" part... it doesn't mean hell doesn't exist....and yes it does exist.. in America!

Bodacious

18-09-2002, 18:12

I never said that discrimination doesn’t exist in America. It DOES…but not to the degree that you folks think it does. Furthermore, if a judge happens to discriminate based on race or religion, well, there’s little we can do about…but he/she is going to have to be VERY secretive in his method of it. Most courts/judges are VERY impartial and listen to both sides of arguments.

By the way, I’m not blond…yes, I’m white, but with brown hair. ;-)

In regards to schools discriminating against people based upon race, it can’t happen. No school will ever come out and publicly deny someone an education based upon their skin color. If a school did such a thing, it would be plastered all over the news and, like I said previously, they’d find themselves in court so fast it’d make their head spin.

As much as you folks would like to find such discrimination in America, and again, it does exist (though there are countries where discrimination is far more prevalent), it does not exist to the degree you think it does…ESPECIALLY not in the educational system.