Islamophobic Incidents on Rise

[sure786]

Assalamu-alaikum:

The following article is a must read. Please read it and comment if you can.

Wa-salaam,
sure

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ISLAMOPHOBIC INCIDENTS RISE 15 PERCENT IN PAST YEAR
Denial of religious accommodation occurred most often in workplace, schools

(WASHINGTON, DC, 8/22/2001) - According to a national report released today by a prominent national Islamic advocacy group, incidents of anti-Muslim discrimination rose 15 percent in the past year. That report, titled "Accommodating Diversity" and published by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), details more than 360 incidents and experiences of anti-Muslim violence, discrimination, stereotyping, bias, and harassment.

(The report includes incidents reported to CAIR in the period from March 2000 to March 2001. It may be downloaded at http://www.cair-net.org/civilrights. SEE ALSO: "U.S. Muslims report increase in discrimination," by Reuters at http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010822/n20257813.html)

These incidents, many of which involved denial of religious accommodation in the workplace (48 percent) or schools (15 percent), included thirty Muslim employees in Minnesota who walked off the job because they were denied the right to pray, a correctional officer in New York who was denied the right to wear a beard, a woman in Illinois who was fired for wearing a religiously-mandated head scarf, Muslim students in Virginia who were told they could no longer hold obligatory Friday prayers in school, and even a shotgun attack on a mosque in Tennessee that left one worshiper wounded.

Some details of CAIR's findings:

* 75 percent of the incidents occurred in states with significant Muslim populations, including California, New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, Michigan, Ohio, Florida, Texas, Georgia, as well as the District of Columbia. Muslims in 30 other states reported the balance of the cases.

* While workplace complaints increased from 42 percent in 2000 to 48 percent in 2001, incidents in schools increased from 13 percent to 15 percent.

* Denial of religious accommodation comprised 37 percent of the complaints, an increase from 31 percent in the previous year.

* Religious attire or appearance (mainly head scarves or beards) was the major identifying factor (33 percent) that prompted discriminatory incidents.

"While there has been increased awareness about the discrimination issues involved, employers and schools continue to deal with incidents on a case-by-case basis. Even in places where there were established procedures to accommodate religious practices, enforcement is usually subjected to personal preferences or to economic and administrative needs," said Dr. Mohamed Nimer, CAIR research director and author of the report.

(Information contained in the report was obtained through investigations by CAIR staff. More than 200 incident reports were excluded due to insufficient evidence of discrimination.)

CAIR issued its first report, called "A Rush to Judgment," within a month of the attack on the Murrah Federal Building. It detailed more than 200 incidents of anti-Muslim threats, harassment, stereotyping, property damage and physical assaults resulting from unfounded links between Muslims and the terrorist attack on the Murrah Federal Building.

There are an estimated seven million Muslims in the United States and some 600,000 in Canada. Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in this country and worldwide.

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CONTACT: Ibrahim Hooper at 202-488-8787
E-Mail: cair1@ix.netcom.com

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CAIR
Council on American-Islamic Relations
453 New Jersey Avenue, S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20003
Tel: 202-488-8787
Fax: 202-488-0833
Page: 202-490-5653
E-mail: cair1@ix.netcom.com
URL: http://www.cair-net.org

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[Luque (Guest)]

Assalamualaikum Mr. Ibrahim.

Very good statistical analysis.

According to my opinion the Islamophobic is on the rise is very understandable. This is due to the image of Islam that has been portrayed.

Actually, today the interpretation of Islam are many. There are orthodox fanatics moslems who act extreme. There are many groups of these Orthodox moslems. There are also open minded moslems who would solve matters in a civilized way (not that many).

The way you are, Mr Ibrahim fall into the open minded one. If more Moslems would be able to rationalise and be very mature (baligh), definately there is no Islamophobic. Islam would be the most respectable.

Unfortunately very many Moslems today are very fanatics, arrogant and not so wise. They believe by hooks or by crook, they will go to heaven as promise by God. They feel they are the chosen people to represent God in fighting other people. This is the act of terrorism that bring shame to other moslems who falls into the open minded one.

I believe these are the people that God choose to close their mind.

In order to bring back the image of Islam as the respectable religion, we have to isolate between the moslems who can think and who cannot think. Those who cannot think wisely we wouldn't acknowledge them as Moslems. We have to make the rest of the world understand that those who cannot think wisely are not the moslems. They are just human without value.

The first requirement as to fulfill the Pillars of Islam must be somebody who is baligh. That means mature, wise, clever, smart, the one that can differentiate between right and wrong. It is not somebody who cannot think.

Qur'an was written in poetic way for us to interpret it to suit the requirement of human being at any place and any time. Once Qur'an is interpreted in the literary way, many of it will sound superstitious.

Magician never believes in magic but fools do. Miracle in Qur'an is not magic but logic. Logic is the nature. The nature is the greatest knowlegde of all. Even if the seven seas are the ink, we will dry up the ink to write the information. Nature never lies, but people do.

There is nothing is the Qur'an that cannot be understood by human mind poetically. But literally, a lot.

For example about the requirement of praying five times a day. Normal interpretation is to thank God. To bow to God. If not God will be angry. Why five times? They answer whatever is fixed, don't ask.

This sort of explanation sounds not right. First, there is no chareteristic of God as being angry or snobish or arrogant. Five times according to sun rise and sun set is the nature of any human being all over the world. Whatever faith.

The beginning of the day is dawn. We pray. In another word wake up in the morning promise to ourselve and God that we want to do the right thing for today. And then we go to work. In the midday (Zuhr), we will get tired and easily get irritated. We stop working and pray to remind ourself about doing the right thing. We continue working until Asr. One more time we pray before leaving the working place. Then when the sun goes down, we pray as we are at home. Later before going to bed after supper, we pray for us to sleep calmly.

This five times in a day, everybody does. Maybe non-moslems do not pray the way moslems do, but the process is the same.

No non-moslems disagree with it. The God is not rigid. The act of praying is not the only way to be in heaven. But any wise mind would choose the best way.

So as other pillars of Islam. All of it has logical explanation that the wise mind would be able to understand.

All stories in Qur'an is about guiding ourselve in living in daily lives. About living in the society. About respecting those who are different from ourselve. About reacting whenever we encountering problems.

I cannot see why anybody would be Islamophobic when there is none at all the teaching about going to bomb others.

See ya.

Luque32@hotmail.com

[sure786]

Assalamu-alaikum:

I would disagree with most of your understanding of problems related to Islamophobia.

The bad press is surely also due to who owns and controls the Media.

As far as "open minded" Muslims are concerend, I know that the majority are secular oriented and completely alienated from the majority Muslims that you call as "orthodox". These "open minded" Muslims are mostly non-practising Muslims who we don't see even for prayers.

Finally I find your message full of stereotypes on majority of Muslims. As you stated about the Americans elsewhere in this Forum, there are over 1 billion Muslims. Surely brother they aren't what you say!

Islamophobia runs hand to hand with rise of Racism and other many problems that affect USA and European countries. It has to be combated and denounced.

Wa-salaam,
sure

[Lulua]

LAST EDITED ON 29-08-01 AT 12:54 PM (GMT)[p]Assalaamu alaikum.

First of all, to make some basic corrections/comments.

Luque: you addressed your message to Br. Ibrahim. You will notice, that it was not Br. Ibrahim who posted the original message. It was 'sure786'. That is not really important.

You have made mention of orthodox muslims equating them as fanatics. If by their trying to implement islam into their daily lives you mean orthodox, then they are not fanatics, they are merely living lives as muslims, in accordance to direction from the Quran and the example of our prophet Mohammed (SAAW).

As for arrogance of thinking that one is superior, simply because of calling himself muslim, that has no basis in islam, nor has arrogance any place in islam.

You said, Luque:

'In order to bring back the image of Islam as the respectable religion, we have to isolate between the moslems who can think and who cannot think. Those who cannot think wisely we wouldn't acknowledge them as Moslems. We have to make the rest of the world understand that those who cannot think wisely are not the moslems. They are just human without value.'

First of all, to bring back the correct image of Islam, we should look to the example set for us by our predecessors, and try to imitate that example, i.e., LIVE islam as a daily life. There are guidances in islam for all aspects of daily life, if people would look and see and know. In the earlier days of Islam, when the crusades and the wars were over, it was more often than not, the example of the daily life of the muslims in the new lands which attracted the masses of converts to Islam.

Secondly...who are you to judge whom is deserving of the name or title 'muslim'? ...and for that matter, to determine who is a thinking person? And, for that matter, since when is thinking itself a pre-requesite for a muslim? Sure, it is better for the individual and society as a whole if the person does think and rationalize things...but basically, faith and action upon that faith is the determining factor of being a muslim. All persons have been gifted by Allah with differences between them, and not all people have the capacity nor the ability to think and rationalize as others do. That does not denounce the fact that they may have declared their belief in the shahada, the basic tenet of being a muslim, nor perhaps their humble yet sincere actions upon that faith.

Hmm...'human without value'??! Who are you to judge who is of value and who is not of value? We have been told from the hadiths that the best of men is he who has the strongest of faith...not the one with the best education, or the one with the most money or position of power, but the one with the strongest faith.

Seems to me...that there is an arrogance in your post here, Luque, which is unrepresentative of islamic values and teachings.

You said:

'The first requirement as to fulfill the Pillars of Islam must be somebody who is baligh. That means mature, wise, clever, smart, the one that can differentiate between right and wrong. It is not somebody who cannot think.'

Yes...that is a basic requirement of a muslim...to be 'baligh'...but the definitions you have given of baligh are not correct. It means mature to the extent that the person has reached the age of passing puberty...and it means that the person can differentiate between right and wrong. That is about the extent of it...wise, clever, and smart have little to do with this. They (wise, clever and smart) may or may not be an advantage(they may even prove to be a disadvantage...if the person does not use those gifts to his advantage and the advantage of islam)...but they are not requirements for a muslim.

'Qur'an was written in poetic way for us to interpret it to suit the requirement of human being at any place and any time. Once Qur'an is interpreted in the literary way, many of it will sound superstitious.'

You can have little idea as to why the Quran was presented to us in such a poetic manner...for that is for Allah alone to know. The poetic verse and the difficulty to copy it's style is one of it's miracles. It came during a time in history amongst a peoples in which poetry was rampant, and therefore it was fitting that it be presented in such a style for mankind. And, even in interpreting literally, there is no superstition about the Quran.

' Magician never believes in magic but fools do. Miracle in Qur'an is not magic but logic. Logic is the nature. The nature is the greatest knowlegde of all. Even if the seven seas are the ink, we will dry up the ink to write the information. Nature never lies, but people do.'

We have touched on this topic of magic in this forum before. Magic is something which is of the creation of Allah...and it does exist...the proof of which is in the Quran itself. We have even been given verses to protect against such magic, and warned against delving into it.

'For example about the requirement of praying five times a day. Normal interpretation is to thank God. To bow to God. If not God will be angry. Why five times? They answer whatever is fixed, don't ask.'

Why five times, you ask? Because it is something ordained upon us, that is why. It is a divine command...from Allah directly.

'This sort of explanation sounds not right. First, there is no chareteristic of God as being angry or snobish or arrogant. Five times according to sun rise and sun set is the nature of any human being all over the world. Whatever faith.'

Yes, to pray and turn to the Creator is the nature of all humans and all creation for that matter, but not humans do follow such instructions. Even some or many muslims. No characteristic of God being angry, you say? Shall I list the many verses which demonstrate to us his anger? Have you heard of the phrase (from the Quran) 'ghadhab Allah'? That is...the anger of Allah!

'This five times in a day, everybody does. Maybe non-moslems do not pray the way moslems do, but the process is the same.'

The regular five-times daiy prayer is something unique to Islam only. It is non-existent in other religions. I am speaking from experience. I come from a family of christians...was trained in the christian way of life. We were taught to pray at any time...no need to pray regular prayers, although it was suggested that those who did so would benefit...but no necessity to pray or requirement of prayer as it is required upon muslims. This is different.

The prayer in islam is a basic and most important element of faith and religion. It is a main tie between the worshipper and the Creator. We have been commanded to observe the prayers at certain times throughout the day, and in doing so, we not only fulfil this commandment, but we are helping ourselves as well. For, we all need Allah's guidance and mercy, and it is through humbling ourselves to Him in our prayers, asking of Him, returning to Him, and serving Him, that we are benefitted by those gifts He bestows upon us...most importantly His forgiveness and mercy. Without it, the prayer, we lose that important line of communication with our Creator, and we become alienated from Him, and therefore we become alienated from all that He may bestow upon us.

As for your last comment:

'I cannot see why anybody would be Islamophobic when there is none at all the teaching about going to bomb others.'

This is opening up a whole other can of beans. What is being done in Palestine today, the bombings, is nothing more than a type of self-defense in the face of oppression. If you would refer to the Quran, you would notice a verse in which we are told that 'oppression is the worst thing in the sight of Allah.' We have even been given the order for taking up Jihad in situations of oppression. Muslims are to fight oppression, and to fight the oppressors. It is the only means that these people have of returning and fighting on their own behalf. The rest of the muslims of the world have neglected them, turning their backs on them in their time of need, and this is their only way of striking out. Put yourself in their shoes for only one day...and see what extents that you would go to to protect yourself, your family, your children, your life, your home, your religion, your masjid, your faith, your very existence.

Perhaps it is time for the 'great nations' of the world to put aside their own racisms for a moment, and to examine what is going on with the muslim world, in order to understand their own 'islamaphobia'. But...racism being what it is...that examination in itself is a parady. For such a fear of islam is only a by-product of such racism.

Lulua.

[Luque (Guest)]

To Lulua and sure

Thanks for replying to my message.

Here clearly shown the different understanding between y'll and me. It also shown the existence of different type of faith about the Islam itself. Whether your kind of interpretation accepted by God or mine, actually today, I don't care. Let's find it out in hereafter.

I feel sorry to the way you guys interpret this holy faith. But I cannot do anything. We go back to surah Al-kafirun. "You are with your religion, and I am with mine". Unfortunately the name of religion is the same.

The value of human compare to other cratures including the animals is the ability to think and manipulating the mind for our development towards the easement of living, say heaven.

If you were interpret "baligh" is reaching puberty, I think even animal breed. I think animal also should be required to pray 5 times a day... (just a joke).

So it seems very clear that we are having different faith only sharing the same name and the same name for God, Allah. As long as you are happy the way you believe and I am happy with the way I believe, it's okey.

Takdir, is the relationship of causes and consequences remain fixed. Nothing can change that. The non wise one will always be bullied is the facts of life. So face the facts to be bullied and ask God to help without you help yourself.

If you think you know how to bomb others, other people also know that because in fact the one that invent the bomb are others not you. May be for me to ask you to think is not that wise since your concern is reaching puberty. So reach puberty and God will help you.

Luque

[Asif]

Luque, you keep on saying that "our interpretations are different". I don't understand how you interpret the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, when Allah says that trinity is wrong how do you interpret that? The verses are so clear and understood. But still you twist and turn the verses to suit your desires. You want the Qur'an to be in conformity with your theories, which it isn't, as anyone who reads the Qur'an will know, so you say "it's a matter of interpretation". When actually, your interpretation is not even an interpretation. It's nothing.

Also, you say you feel pity on us. Wonderful, you feel sorry for 1.2 billion Muslims who follow the Qur'an and Sunnah. We (the 1.2 billion orthodox Muslims) feel pity on you (alone with your interpretation). Strange that 1.2 billion people interpreted the Qur'an wrongly, but you got it right. Strange that the Muslims of the past got it wrong, and you got it right. You should be given a medal of honour for being the first ever person to "interpret the Qur'an correctly". Our interpretation is closer to what is mentioned in the Qur'an, because our interpretation is based on the Qur'an and Sunnah. And we invite anyone to verify what i say.

Also, you use the final verse of Surah Kaafirun for us, when actually it was intended for Kuffar. So i assume you are declaring us, and the 1.2 billion Muslims who follow orthodox Islam, kaafir. Fine, we shall see in the Life Hereafter, as you said. And whoever was wrong, then he/she will see it. And Allah will deal with such a person severely, Insha Allah. As Allah Has mentioned in many places in the Qur'an that He gives the strictest of punishments to the evil doers (i believe you were the one who denied Allah gets angry or punishes people, i wonder what you have to say about the very verses in the Qur'an that talk about Allah's anger and His wrath and punishment? How do you interpret those verses? Do you believe they are in the Qur'an?)

You said: " If you were interpret "baligh" is reaching puberty, I think even animal breed. I think animal also should be required to pray 5 times a day... (just a joke)."

That's all you have been doing up till now, joking. Anyway, the definition of baligh is perfectly correct as mentioned by sis Lulua. "Baligh" means mature or adult. This word is even used in Urdu, and since i speak urdu, i know its meaning. Will you now say that the meaning of the word "baligh" in Arabic and Urdu is wrong? I wouldn't be surprised if you do so. If we take your meaning of "baligh", then that would mean that Islam can only be practised by people who have a high intellect, a high IQ, who are very intelligent. Since when did Islam become an exclusive club only for intellectual people? There are billions of people on this Earth today. Some are intelligent, some are not. But both types of people can accept Islam if they feel it is the truth. But as per your interpretation, only the intelligent ones should accept Islam. The flaw in your interpretation is proved right here, with your interpretation and meaning of the word "baligh". Even masters of the 2 languages of Arabic and Urdu, will accept our interpretation, because that is what it is.

Whether the name of our religion is the same or not, i don't know. My religion is Islam. The name of your religion, Allahu Alim.

Anyway, have a good day,
Asif.

[sure786]

Assalamu-alaikum:

I pray that Br Luque may open his eyes and stop calling the vast of majority implicitly as "kafirun".

Br Luque you drew a smile in my face :-) when I read in other postings in this very Forum "I have friends American Christians and also American Jews. They all agree about not doing the wrong thing. They all accept me as their friends may be with the way I understand Qur'an and with the image I portrayed.". The underlining is mine. You are aware why these Christians and Jews like you. Allah is Witness!

Wa-salaam,
sure

[Lulua]

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Good day to all others.

Luque...you have again misunderstood, misinterpreted, and even misquoted my given definition of the term 'baligh' or 'balugh'. I will remind you here of what I said in my previous post:

'Yes...that is a basic requirement of a muslim...to be 'baligh'...but the definitions you have given of baligh are not correct. It means mature to the extent that the person has reached the age of passing puberty...and it means that the person can differentiate between right and wrong. That is about the extent of it...'

You will note...please...that I mentioned the point that the term or consideration of passing thru the stage of 'baligh' does occur at the time of puberty...but that is not the only point of it...it does mean maturity that the individual can now determine and know for himself/herself right from wrong. It happens at this stage in life...it is not a sudden change but something that is a gradual learning process that takes that many years to develop until a person is determined responsible for his own self and his own actions. It is not the term of puberty itself...the physical passing into adulthood that counts...but the mentality that a person reaches at that stage.

It seems, Luque..that with your responses and misunderstandings here, you are yet to pass that stage in your mental life...regardless of your physical age.

Luque said:

'. Whether your kind of interpretation accepted by God or mine, actually today, I don't care. Let's find it out in hereafter.'

Hmm...that is a big difference between you and me here...you do not care whether or not your own interpretation of Islam is correct, whereas I myself am quite concerned of my own interpretation and understanding of Islam...for to do wrong in this life incurs much penalty to be found later on in the next life. Can you be so sure that you will not have such penalty and destruction upon you, because of your 'interpretation' and 'understanding' of Islam...let alone of the propagation that you are making of this understanding of yours? I warn you to not be so arrogant.

We are given instruction in the Quran to follow the prophet(SAAW), and that he is an exempler for us. How better to follow him than to know and follow his examples recorded and preserved for us in the hadiths?

To do so is not 'old-fashioned'...nor does Islam need reviving or modernization. Islam is THE religion selected by Allah for mankind...for all times. It is applicable today as it was in the time of it's revelation. The verses of the Quran are a guidance and directive and comfort for us today as they were in the days of the prophet(SAAW) and his companions.

May Allah guide us all.

Lulua.

[Luque (Guest)]

>Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
>
>Good day to all others.
>
>Luque...you have again misunderstood, misinterpreted, and
>even misquoted my given definition
>of the term 'baligh' or
>'balugh'. I will remind you
>here of what I said
>in my previous post:
>
>'Yes...that is a basic requirement of
>a muslim...to be 'baligh'...but the
>definitions you have given of
>baligh are not correct. It
>means mature to the extent
>that the person has reached
>the age of passing puberty...and
>it means that the person
>can differentiate between right and
>wrong. That is about the
>extent of it...'

This is what I mean as baligh in my previous post about being able to differentiate between right and wrong. How to differentiate right and wrong if the meaning of right and wrong we don't know.

Is it right to believe Allah created another group of human like Christian or Jews to be hated?

Is it right to believe something that doesn't make sense like magic or miracles? (Bare to remember that probability is also part of logic).

Is it right only to concern about moslems not other people with different faith?



>You will note...please...that I mentioned the
>point that the term or
>consideration of passing thru the
>stage of 'baligh' does occur
>at the time of puberty...but
>that is not the only
>point of it...it does mean
>maturity that the individual can
>now determine and know for
>himself/herself right from wrong.

Why don't you define the right and the wrong or any verse from Qur'an if you could quote? And my next question will be, is it right or wrong to drive a car or to log on into internet? If it is so, why?


It
>happens at this stage in
>life...it is not a sudden
>change but something that is
>a gradual learning process that
>takes that many years to
>develop until a person is
>determined responsible for his own
>self and his own actions.

What happen if he / she is not aware of the consequences of his / her acts? What kind of "responsible" that you are talking about?

>It is not the term
>of puberty itself...the physical passing
>into adulthood that counts...but the
>mentality that a person reaches
>at that stage.
>
>It seems, Luque..that with your responses
>and misunderstandings here, you are
>yet to pass that stage
>in your mental life...regardless of
>your physical age.

You can say whatever you want to say. May be this is what you call right that Allah granted?

>
>Luque said:
>
>'. Whether your kind of interpretation
>accepted by God or mine,
>actually today, I don't care.
>Let's find it out in
>hereafter.'
>
>Hmm...that is a big difference between
>you and me here...you do
>not care whether or not
>your own interpretation of Islam
>is correct, whereas I myself
>am quite concerned of my
>own interpretation and understanding of
>Islam...

Do you? I guess may be out of your realizalion of the differences in understanding, that's why you stick to the way you think and I stick with mine.

for to do wrong in
>this life incurs much penalty
>to be found later on
>in the next life. Can
>you be so sure that
>you will not have such
>penalty and destruction upon you,
>because of your 'interpretation' and
>'understanding' of Islam...let alone of
>the propagation that you are
>making of this understanding of
>yours? I warn you to
>not be so arrogant.

What about you? Aren't you that arrogant to feel I am so much wrong? How can you also be sure that you will not have such penalty and destruction upon you, because of your 'interpretation' and 'understanding' of Islam? You sure you going to heaven is it? Still heaven for your kind wouldn't be the heaven for me.

>
>We are given instruction in the
>Quran to follow the prophet(SAAW),
>and that he is an
>exempler for us.

I always believe prophet Muhammad (SAW) is the exampler. Unfortunately he is not around today and the people who bring his words and his story are the people I don't believe. His words and his story happen nearly 1500 years ago. Even the meaning of word can differ. The habits of human : they will convey the message the way they understand. How much can I tell, you will understand my message? Maybe 70%. Then if you were to pass the message to next person, next person will understand may be only 70% from 70% of your understanding. Or maybe the interpretation already different. Point to ponder.



How better
>to follow him than to
>know and follow his examples
>recorded and preserved for us
>in the hadiths?

The one who preserve the hadiths is not himself. Can I believe those who preserved the hadiths as I believe in him? No way...

I remember the history about Umaiyah and Abbasiyah and those later on. Even these rulers cannot rule the country or Islamic empire the way Prophet Muhammad did. How can I believe his hadiths to be preserved by these people? During his time of ruling, Islam never invaded any of the neighbouring country but they voluntarily joining the Islamic way of life because Islamic country was the most advance in development economically and politically in the region. But later, after his time, Islam becoming more arrogant and invading other people until Baghdad invaded by the Tar Tar. The biggest library in Baghdad were burnt. How can I believe these people are the people who carry his words and his story?


>
>To do so is not 'old-fashioned'...nor
>does Islam need reviving or
>modernization. Islam is THE religion
>selected by Allah for mankind...for
>all times. It is applicable
>today as it was in
>the time of it's revelation.
>The verses of the Quran
>are a guidance and directive
>and comfort for us today
>as they were in the
>days of the prophet(SAAW) and
>his companions.

These words of yours only applicable if the Qur'an is interpreted poetically, not literally. Today we have cars, jets and internet. During his time we have none of the above. So the interpretation should suit the right and the wrong for today.



>May Allah guide us all.
>
Luque.

p/s: at least you are little bit open than your other 2 friends. That's why I reply yours. Still got to be mature to be able to differentiate between right and wrong. And then you will be able to fulfill the pillars of Islam. Definately to be baligh meant to have brain or mind and use it. I don't mean up to extent to be inteligent the way your friend understand. But this is the problem with communication. Tendency to misinterpret is high. Just imagine how hadith can be preserved?

see ya.

[Lulua]

Assalaamu alaikum.

Luque...you have asked many rhetorical questions here...and I will atempt to answer them, either in a general fashion or some of them in singular particularity. I hope and pray that my explanations shall help you and myself and others as well.

First of all...please refer to the Quran...the first 5 verses of surat-Al-Baqara:

'Alif Lam Mim.
This is the book; in it is guidance, sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
They are on (true guidance), from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.' s. 2, v.1-5.

You will notice, on reference to these verses, that belief or faith in the unseen is part of the basic tenets of faith in the Word of Allah, and is in fact a pre-requesite for final destination of prosperity.

You said:

'What about you? Aren't you that arrogant to feel I am so much wrong? How can you also be sure that you will not have such penalty and destruction upon you, because of your 'interpretation' and 'understanding' of Islam? You sure you going to heaven is it? Still heaven for your kind wouldn't be the heaven for me.'

I am not being arrogant in this...merely pointing out to you your own assumptions. Far be it from me to assume of my own salvation...I can only hope and pray for that...the rest is up to the mercy of Allah if He shall be so merciful to me. In the meantime, I gather directives from His Book of Directions...the Quran...take His advices and warnings, attempt my best to follow in accordance to His instructions and following the examples that I find in the prophet's (SAAW) life as recorded in the hadiths, and then continue to pray for His forgiveness and mercy upon me. I never did say that I am sure of my own salvation...just questioning you, that is all, because of the air that you have discussed this point in your previous posts. Oh...and btw...what is a heaven for 'my kind'..? Are we not all humans? Not all part of the creation? SubhanAllah. Heaven is heaven, and hell is hell.

Luque said:

'Is it right to believe Allah created another group of human like Christian or Jews to be hated?'

Basically, no one here at this forum has mentioned that these groups were created or any other groups of humans to be hated. All humans were created...to worship Allah. We are told that quite frankly in the Quran. It is what those humans do with their free will in their lives which will eventually contribute to their direction which they end up going. As for hating any group, I don't believe that anyone here at this forum has stated any such hate for any particular group of people merely for their association with religion or way of life. Also, when we do anything...or even feel any emotion...in order to receive reward for that, we should do so for Allah's sake. In other words, if we hate something or someone...or what that someone does...then it should be for the sake of Allah, because Allah hates that thing or that act.

Luque said:

'Is it right to believe something that doesn't make sense like magic or miracles? (Bare to remember that probability is also part of logic).'

Again...I will re-iterate, as I have many times before...magic is mentioned in the Quran...even to the extent that we are advised to keep away from it. For it is an act of evil, and leads to evil. Miracles are also mentioned in the Quran, and even descriptions of some of the miracles that were made possible for some of the prophets. Not only is it right to believe in these things...or aspects of life...but it is part of the essence of faith...for they are both (magic and miracles) part of the world of the 'unseen', as is mentioned in the first 5 verses of surat-al-baqarah. The results of both may or may not be available to common sight by people...but the force of it itself...the magic or the miracle is unseen, and many times generally unknown, until one receives some directives towards knowing it. Along this lines, there are many things of the world of the unseen...such as bacteria (although they can be seen by microscope, yet they are not to be seen with the naked eye)...yet the effects of them can be seen quite clearly most times; things far away in space (which again, can only be seen by the use of special optic devices such as the telescope, yet not seen by the naked eye); things of the past...which no one on earth has seen, yet they are known to have happened either by the evidence that they have left, or by recordings by those who have passed before us, or combination of both; as well as things to happen in the future; as well as things which we may hear of happening in places which we are not present to witness, yet know that they do happen either by the evidences physically of them, or by reports of others who do see them...etc., etc..etc.. as well as the world of the jinn, amongst other things of the unseen.

Luque said:

'Is it right only to concern about moslems not other people with different faith?'

Certainly no, it is not to be concerned only about muslims...for we should be concerned about the whole world...and all that is within it. We are responsible, as muslims, for the others of mankind, to present the word of Islam in the best possible manner that we can. Then, after that, as for who accepts and who denies, then we are to be blameless for we have at least spread the word. Then the responsibility of acceptance or denial lies upon those individuals, and no longer lies with us.

Luque said:

'Why don't you define the right and the wrong or any verse from Qur'an if you could quote? And my next question will be, is it right or wrong to drive a car or to log on into internet? If it is so, why?'

Basically, the Quran gives us many guidelines as to what is right and what is wrong. These are in the form of commandments or divine instruction (such as the prohibition of eating pork and drinking liquor, and the deduction from that that all intoxicants are in fact haram)...or even sublimer instructions such as to follow the prophet, of which there are many such instructions in the Quran.

'O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and make not vain your deeds!'s.47, v.33.

'Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).'s.24, v.54.

Another view point of right and wrong, is basically, that anything which serves to promote vice between humans and cause problems is generally wrong, and anything which promotes goodness and harmony is right. That is to an extent, in the viewpoint that no party is oppressed by the other...for we are also told in the Quran that oppression is something hated in the sight of Allah. In other words, this is not to say that, for instance, peace in Palestine/Israel is to be made at the cost of the lives and properties of those Palestinians who are being oppressed and having their lands and homes and lives taken over illegally. This is a completely different aspect and story.

Oh...and to answer your question about cars and internet, for example...it is not the device itself which would be unadvisable or perhaps haram or halal...but the way that it is put to use. For instance, if a car is used to transport illegal substances such as liquor or drugs, or even used for illegal sexual activities, such as a 'pimp car'...then that is most definitely haram and wrong. But...if the car is used, for instance, to go to school, or to work to make an honest living doing something which is not against the teachings of Islam, then there is no wrong in it...in fact it makes ease for the person in doing so, and is certainly right. About the internet...again...it depends upon the use and the user. If it is used merely for, say, pornography, either distributing it or viewing it, then it is wrong and haram. But...if it is used as a tool for dawa, or for education, or even for earning money in a good, halal manner, then that is good and right. In all cases, it boils down to the user and the manner in which the instrument is used.

Luque said:

'Still got to be mature to be able to differentiate between right and wrong. And then you will be able to fulfill the pillars of Islam. Definately to be baligh meant to have brain or mind and use it. I don't mean up to extent to be inteligent the way your friend understand. But this is the problem with communication. Tendency to misinterpret is high. Just imagine how hadith can be preserved?'

As for mature...it is an undisputed point in islam, that individuals are held and assumed to be mature at the age of puberty. That is when each individual is expected to be responsible for his/her own actions and inactions. That is when each individual is responsible for attending to prayers and other duties upon the muslim.

Thankyou for defining your explanation of this...for it was your original definition which began the opposition in the following messages. Not all individuals are blessed with the same capacity for thinking and for understanding. We are all different in that. However, we are all held responsible for our own actions and inactions, as well as our acceptance and denial of faith and the word of God.

You mentioned your question of hadith, and your inclination to not believing in the hadiths. Let me say this about hadiths: it is something quite unique only to islam, this system of the recorded hadiths. They are the accepted and known sayings, traditions, practices, and orders of the prophet(SAAW). It is rather a science in it's own rite. When you begin to study the hadiths, and by this I mean study the method in which these traditions and sayings were preserved, and by whom...then perhaps you will have more understanding and faith in them. This is to be coupled along with the many instructions in the Quran to follow the example of the prophet(SAAW). But then again...you yourself admitted that you do not take the Quran literally, but rather poetically. Well, then...there is not much that we can help you with in this matter here. It is something that you will have to work out for yourself.

'Those who reject Allah, hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and resist the Messenger, after Guidance has been clearly shown to them, will not injure Allah in the least, but He will make their deeds of no effect.'s. 47. v.32.

Remember, that, the Quran is something of guidance for all of mankind, and that the prophet(SAAW) was the universal prophet, the seal of all prophets, no prophet to come after him. This is all evident from verses of the Quran. I am sure that you are familiar with them. The directives, warnings, comforts, guidance, reminders, and all contained within the Quran is for all of mankind for all time to come. It is nothing particular only to the time of the prophet(SAAW)...but something for us to hold on to and to use as guidance and directive for our lives even now.

May Allah enlighten us all to that guidance, and to that knowledge, and to that wisdom and strength.

Lulua.

[Luque (Guest)]

Assalamualaikum bro. Lulua.

Thanks for fine elaboration. But still there is the different in our point of view about Islam.

What do you think about Islamic history? Why during prophet Islamic country was at the top and now, see what happen.

Do you think Islamic Country like Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Libya and etc, should be the model of Islamic country which congruen with the country used to be build by prophet Muhammad? The country and the people that we can be proud of as the model for the whole world..?.

During the reign of Prophet Muhammad, even the Kufr country at that time copy the technology invented. Today, we all with 1.2 billion Muslim who 'as if' follow the same teaching which was preserved "correctly" has gone no where moreover copying Kufr technology and live in the life so backward according to modern standard. Are we really following the same teaching of Islam as it was? I doubt that. Do you believe comfortability of life only belongs to Kufr and for us is hereafter? If so, why during the Islamic reign of Prophet Muhammad, the life was so comfortable?

Prophet Muhammad is the model of the human being whom we all should follow either as Moslems or non. If he was a person who just follow the tradition, would he be able to brought different faith at his time? This showed that he was a person who can think. Even he couldn't read at first, but he can think. Don't tell me we cannot follow him because he was chosen by Allah to be so. If that's the case, since we are not meant to be the chosen one, let's be the way we are then.

I still believe Muhammad (SAW) chose to be what he was due to what he experienced during the reign of Kufr in Mecca. And he felt something got to be done to brought the peace and harmony so as the modern living during his time. Definately if he was just follow tradition without having any logical explanation, he wouldn't be what he was.

This is why I believe Islam today is not the same as Islam during prophet Muhammad (SAW). Islam today has been distorted until the moslems so scared to learn and only way to know to claim is to go physical, like bombing, killing and etc. Prophet Muhammad never did all that.

Prophet Muhammad only fight to defence never to invade.

Political and economic, judicial also social system during Prophet Muhammad also has never been discussed by our Ulamak. They only concern about Fardhu Ain. What they claimed as Hudud law, only to cut the hands of the thief. According to Islamic Criminal Justice system, we have to have at least four independence witness in order to justify the act of crime.

As the Police Officer, I've never encounter such situation to apprehend the thief. We have never had eye witness who saw the act of stealing. What we do, we go to the stolen item and trace back the thief. Would Islamic Criminal Justice System work in this environment? No way. We can have more thief because they were not scared knowing the case would always be thrown out.

Definately during the reign of Prophet Muhammad, Political, Economic, Social and Judicial System was not the same as what we have today. Even in the "so called" Islamic country. I believe the system that give the most convenient and comfortable life to the citizen is the Islamic System. I believe "the best is the Islam, Not Islam is the best".
What do you think suggested in the Qur'an and Hadith?

The system for the society is not an illusion. We have to live everyday, breathing and moving. We cannot have an illusion pasted in our real life.

If we keep on talking about Fardhu Ain, we will not go anywhere but get angry to each other. I would suggest we talk about how to have a better societal system. It is our responsibility to bring happiness to our children and keep everyone safe and healthy. It is my responsibility to eradicate fright in living in the society as a cop. Just asking them to pray, they wouldn't be so sure they will have food for tomorrow or be able to pay the rent end of the month.

Luque.

[Lulua]

Assalaamu alaikum.

Basically, the reason that the turn-about in the state of the muslim ummah today is due to several factors, which can be traced down to this: poor and little true knowledge of Islam (including it's history) and weak faith in Allah and Islam.

The muslims have become lazy, after a golden period in which they were once strong. They became to rely upon that strength, took it for granted, and became lazy, depending only upon those with stronger faith and more ambition to work for life and for future.

It has happened over a long period of time, and the demise has been a generally all-encompassing thing.

Islam itself is the best possible solution to life...the best possible guide for mankind lies within the Quran. But sadly, muslims in general today, are not living examples themselves of that direction which is given in the Quran. There are rising a few who are attempting at it...but in general, they are a very few minority of muslims who are doing just that...living their lives in accordance with directives of the Quran and in light of the example provided for us by the prophet Mohammed (SAAW) in his sunnah.

As for country which is truly Islamic...there are many countries today, or several I should say, which each is implementing this or that aspect of Islam. Yet...sadly, there is no one country itself which is totally and fully implementing Islam in it's fullest and truest form. That has yet to happen.

As for sustenance or anything else that anyone should need in this life...or protection or deliverance from oppression...none should ever disregard the power of prayer...the effect of dua. Merely relate to the Quran...to receive evidences and reminders of those who came before us...those who were in dire situations, yet they remembered to turn to Allah in prayer, asking for His help and deliverance from the terror of the situation that they were in at the moment.

It is the human's own arrogance or perhaps forgetfulness of the power of the prayer and supplication...which many times puts him into a worse situation, finding actually no way out. When a person remembers and humbles himself to the point of asking for help, asking for deliverance, and remembering Allah, turning to Him in his time of need, and truly asking ONLY Him...then that is when the time of help is near.

Allah helps those who turn to Him...but He is waiting for the people to turn to Him, and to ask of Him, to seek their forgiveness, recognize their own faults, and to humbly seek forgiveness and help.

Lulua.

[Asif]

“I remember the history about Umaiyah and Abbasiyah and those later on. Even these rulers cannot rule the country or Islamic empire the way Prophet Muhammad did. How can I believe his hadiths to be preserved by these people? During his time of ruling, Islam never invaded any of the neighbouring country but they voluntarily joining the Islamic way of life because Islamic country was the most advance in development economically and politically in the region. But later, after his time, Islam becoming more arrogant and invading other people until Baghdad invaded by the Tar Tar. The biggest library in Baghdad were burnt. How can I believe these people are the people who carry his words and his story?”


Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh Ya Muslimeen !

Luque…you said you remember the history of Umaiyyads and Abbasids. You also mention brief epiodes of History, i.e. incidents that took place in History.

Luque, you say that you cannot trust Ahadith because they may have been corrupted by misguided souls. Then how did you come to believe the history of the Ummayads and Abbasids? How did you know the Tartars invaded Baghdad? Obviously Historians in those days heard incidents from people and then recorded these incidents (as all historians of the past used to do). You seem to trust Historians without any problem, none whatsoever. You believe every word of theirs. Although, the people they heard these incidents from may have lied, or exaggerated. Or these Historians may have lied. Or people from later generations may have corrupted History if they wised. But you have no problem with this History, as narrated to us by Historians. You do not even think about questioning that. But you want to question ahadith, why? I presume you do so because Ahadith are definitely against your vain desires, against your interpretations (which once again I presume you arrived at to appease Christians and Jews, since in one article you mentioned how proud you were of having Christian and Jewish friends). Luque, you should not trust history or historians if you cannot trust ahadith and muhaddithun. It would be hypocritical of you to not trust one thing, but trust another, although the methods are same.

Also, you mention that ‘you are a bit more open compared to your other 2 friends”. Well, yes, we’re not open minded because we choose to annihalate our Nafs, and choose to submit our wills to Allah. There is no such thing as “our will” for Muslims, there is only “Allah’s will”. This is one of the beauties of Islam. Anyway, the opinion we have presented to you is from the Qur’an and Sunnah. Wheras, the opinions you mention are neither from the Qur’an nor Sunnah, yet you say that your interpretations are correct, or the implications certainly seem this to me. (Subhan Allah, I wonder what proof you have).

When a verse from the Qur’an is mentioned to you, even if a non Muslim would have read that verse, would have understood the verse very easily. But in your case, you keep saying “This is not my interpretation”. Well, you do mention your interpretation, but have you ever backed it with ayahs from the Qur’an??

Then somewhere you mention that Allah Has abandoned the Muslims. Well, that is by far the most absurd thing I have heard in my life (this is my view, not necessarily yours or anyone else’s). Allah Has already mentioned to Muslims in the Qur’an that He will test us to differentiate between the true believers and the hypocrites. Muslims have already been told in the Qur’an and Sunnah that this world will be like a prison for the believer, whereas it will be a place of enjoyment for disbelievers (non Muslims). Allah Has said the non Muslims will have their fun on Earth, and only pain in the Life Hereafter for their rejection of belief in the Oneness of Allah. I am sure you must have read these ayahs in the Qur'’n many times. And if you have read ahadith, you will come across many on this subject. Muslims have also been told that if they, or anyone else, transgresses, then Allah will punish such a people, whoever it maybe. And i must say, most Muslims today are not practising Muslims, so perhaps, Wallahu Alim, Muslims are being punished for not implementing Islam completely, and not accepting Islam whole heartedly, and for trying to become like the non Muslims and disbelievers.

Then, in another place, you mention Lulua’s “arrogance”. Well, I do not think sis Lulua was bein arrogant there, it was only to tell you that since your interpretation has been rejected by the Muslims (the vast majority at least), it is time you check yourself out. The fact that your interpretations are being appreciated by Jews and Christians is another factor to be taken into account. Have you wondered why it is Christians and Jews accept your interpretations, whereas Muslims do not. It is because your interpretations are closer to their religions, than Islam and mainstream Islam.

Then, right at the end of the article you say ‘Just imagine hopw can ahadith be preserved?”

Answer: “Just imagine how History was preserved.”

Mutawattir reportings are a major sign of the authenticity of ahadith.

Then, in another place where you mention my name “as if” (btw, my name is Asif, not “as if”) and mention the 1.2 billion Muslims. You mention technology. Yes today Muslims are a backward people. And the reason is they stopped following orthodox Islam, and people sprang up with a million different interpretations of Islam (just like you). But the issue is not technology. If you think a religion is proved by its economic successes or its technological progress, then that is silly. A religion does not have as much to do with money or technology, as with belief and practise of the belief. I wonder what makes you think that the authenticity of a religion is proved by economics and technology? This is a very atheist approach to Islam. Be very careful.

Thewn you mention “we’re not to be the chosen one…..”. But Allah Has already mentioned that the Muslims are the chosen race when He says in the Qur’an that “You are the best of people” which can be referred to the Sahabah as well as to the Muslims of all ages, Wa Allahu Alim.

Insha Allah, I shall try to reply later on to other articles of yours.

Wassalamu Alaykum ya Muslimeen !

[Luque (Guest)]

>
>Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh
>Ya Muslimeen !
>
>Luque…you said you remember the history
>of Umaiyyads and Abbasids. You
>also mention brief epiodes of
>History, i.e. incidents that took
>place in History.

Brother Asif said.

">Luque, you say that you cannot
>trust Ahadith because they may
>have been corrupted by misguided
>souls. Then how did you
>come to believe the history
>of the Ummayads and Abbasids?
>How did you know the
>Tartars invaded Baghdad? Obviously Historians
>in those days heard incidents
>from people and then recorded
>these incidents (as all historians
>of the past used to
>do). You seem to trust
>Historians without any problem, none
>whatsoever. You believe every word
>of theirs. Although, the people
>they heard these incidents from
>may have lied, or exaggerated.
>Or these Historians may have
>lied. Or people from later
>generations may have corrupted History
>if they wised. But you
>have no problem with this
>History, as narrated to us
>by Historians. You do not
>even think about questioning that.
>But you want to question
>ahadith, why?"

Let me answer this part first.

You see for yourself Islam today. Doesn't it congruen with the history. Maybe the word Tar Tar could be somebody else. But the fact that Islam fall due to what then?

During Prophet Muhammad (SAW) Islam was the strongest and full of pride. Never invaded. (Do you want to believe in this?) The technology was the first class for his time. Social system created the justice in the society. Economically, fair distribution of wealth. Tolerance very high among the citizens. This is the development he brought.

Today. You look for yourself and find what and where is wrong?.

"I presume you
>do so because Ahadith are
>definitely against your vain desires,
>against your interpretations (which once
>again I presume you arrived
>at to appease Christians and
>Jews, since in one article
>you mentioned how proud you
>were of having Christian and
>Jewish friends). Luque, you should
>not trust history or historians
>if you cannot trust ahadith
>and muhaddithun. It would be
>hypocritical of you to not
>trust one thing, but trust
>another, although the methods are
>same. "

I am not talking about the method of gathering information, I am talking about what you see it today. Then what about you? Don't you trust the historians the way you trust hadith.

>Also, you mention that ‘you are
>a bit more open compared
>to your other 2 friends”.
>Well, yes, we’re not open
>minded because we choose to
>annihalate our Nafs, and choose
>to submit our wills to
>Allah. There is no such
>thing as “our will” for
>Muslims, there is only “Allah’s
>will”. This is one of
>the beauties of Islam. Anyway,
>the opinion we have presented
>to you is from the
>Qur’an and Sunnah. Wheras, the
>opinions you mention are neither
>from the Qur’an nor Sunnah,
>yet you say that your
>interpretations are correct, or the
>implications certainly seem this to
>me. (Subhan Allah, I wonder
>what proof you have).
>
>When a verse from the Qur’an
>is mentioned to you, even
>if a non Muslim would
>have read that verse, would
>have understood the verse very
>easily. But in your case,
>you keep saying “This is
>not my interpretation”. Well, you
>do mention your interpretation, but
>have you ever backed it
>with ayahs from the Qur’an??
>
The interpretation is poetic. You will never understand it. It has to go thru your own experience of life everyday.

>
>Then somewhere you mention that Allah
>Has abandoned the Muslims. Well,
>that is by far the
>most absurd thing I have
>heard in my life (this
>is my view, not necessarily
>yours or anyone else’s). Allah
>Has already mentioned to Muslims
>in the Qur’an that He
>will test us to differentiate
>between the true believers and
>the hypocrites. Muslims have already
>been told in the Qur’an
>and Sunnah that this world
>will be like a prison
>for the believer, whereas it
>will be a place of
>enjoyment for disbelievers (non Muslims).

If so, why did Prophet Muhamad wanted to free the Moslems slaves. Why you bother about Palestinian been oppressed, since the life today is not for the moslems?

>Allah Has said the non
>Muslims will have their fun
>on Earth, and only pain
>in the Life Hereafter for
>their rejection of belief in
>the Oneness of Allah.

So don't complian to live in pain when there is injustice. Because you believe is should be so. As if the act of God.

>I am sure you must
>have read these ayahs in
>the Qur'’n many times. And
>if you have read ahadith,
>you will come across many
>on this subject. Muslims have
>also been told that if
>they, or anyone else, transgresses,
>then Allah will punish such
>a people, whoever it maybe.
>And i must say, most
>Muslims today are not practising
>Muslims, so perhaps, Wallahu Alim,
>Muslims are being punished for
>not implementing Islam completely, and
>not accepting Islam whole heartedly,
>and for trying to become
>like the non Muslims and
>disbelievers.
>
>Then, in another place, you mention
>Lulua’s “arrogance”. Well, I do
>not think sis Lulua was
>bein arrogant there, it was
>only to tell you that
>since your interpretation has been
>rejected by the Muslims (the
>vast majority at least), it
>is time you check yourself
>out. The fact that your
>interpretations are being appreciated by
>Jews and Christians is another
>factor to be taken into
>account. Have you wondered why
>it is Christians and Jews
>accept your interpretations, whereas Muslims
>do not.

They are also human like us creted by Allah only to be borned from different wound at different places. The feeling of human being is the same.

It is because
>your interpretations are closer to
>their religions, than Islam and
>mainstream Islam.
>
>Then, right at the end of
>the article you say ‘Just
>imagine hopw can ahadith be
>preserved?”
>
>Answer: “Just imagine how History was
>preserved.”

You answer to you own question. If you believe it that way, do you also believe human coming from monkey?


>Mutawattir reportings are a major sign
>of the authenticity of ahadith.
>
>
>Then, in another place where you
>mention my name “as if”
>(btw, my name is Asif,
>not “as if”)

When I say "as if" I have never meant you Asif.. It is as if...

and mention
>the 1.2 billion Muslims. You
>mention technology. Yes today Muslims
>are a backward people. And
>the reason is they stopped
>following orthodox Islam, and people
>sprang up with a million
>different interpretations of Islam (just
>like you).

The way I think not the cause of the backward. But the way you think.

But the issue
>is not technology. If you
>think a religion is proved
>by its economic successes or
>its technological progress, then that
>is silly. A religion does
>not have as much to
>do with money or technology,
>as with belief and practise
>of the belief. I wonder
>what makes you think that
>the authenticity of a religion
>is proved by economics and
>technology? This is a very
>atheist approach to Islam. Be
>very careful.
>
>Thewn you mention “we’re not to
>be the chosen one…..”. But
>Allah Has already mentioned that
>the Muslims are the chosen
>race when He says in
>the Qur’an that “You are
>the best of people” which
>can be referred to the
>Sahabah as well as to
>the Muslims of all ages,
>Wa Allahu Alim.
>
>Insha Allah, I shall try to
>reply later on to other
>articles of yours.
>
>Wassalamu Alaykum ya Muslimeen !



Thanks for your reply.

[Luque (Guest)]

>Assalaamu alaikum.

Sister Lulua said.
">Basically, the reason that the turn-about
>in the state of the
>muslim ummah today is due
>to several factors, which can
>be traced down to this:
>poor and little true knowledge
>of Islam (including it's history)
>and weak faith in Allah
>and Islam.
>
>The muslims have become lazy, after
>a golden period in which
>they were once strong. They
>became to rely upon that
>strength, took it for granted,
>and became lazy, depending only
>upon those with stronger faith
>and more ambition to work
>for life and for future."

Don't you think these are 1.2 billion Moslems today who believe the same way you guys do? I guess somebody said about the only one who believe the way I do is just "me"? I'm not surprise.

Sister Lulua said

">Islam itself is the best possible
>solution to life...the best possible
>guide for mankind lies within
>the Quran."

Like I said before, " Islam is not the best, but the best is Islam".

That means, as time goes by, places changed, we have to live and choose the best solution. The moment we picked the best, that's Islamic way. This is what I believe.

Sister Lulua said,

"But sadly, muslims
>in general today, are not
>living examples themselves of that
>direction which is given in
>the Quran."

Why don't you find the method of distribution of wealth in Qur'an so we can practice in everyday' s life. How one going to put price of production according to Qur'an and Sunnah? What is the best policy to increase productivity in society? What is the administrative policy should be played by any government so that there is check and balance? What should be government structure in order to maintain public life safe and peace?

Do you have any of these answer in the Qur'an and Hadith? There are many more questions, actually. But when people or authority made any policy or rules which always have the weaknesses, you claimed they do not follow Qur'an and Hadith. But what or where can you find these solutions in the Qur'an and Hadith?

Do you have the solutions in the Qur'an and/or Hadith about Palestine and Israel?

Please be realistic. I am talking about living everyday. Everybody needs to survive. You are talking about living in hereafter. Actually, I don't care about hereafter. I will deal with it later in hereafter. I want to get the solution of how everybody can live everyday happily and peacefully in the world. Another thing I've never believe Allah will punish anyone who is putting the effort to free everyone from fright. "Like Islamophobia"

Sister Lulua said,

"There are rising
>a few who are attempting
>at it...but in general, they
>are a very few minority
>of muslims who are doing
>just that...living their lives in
>accordance with directives of the
>Quran and in light of
>the example provided for us
>by the prophet Mohammed (SAAW)
>in his sunnah.

This is what I call illusion. Do you believe that you live according to directive of the Qur'an or Sunnah? What is the different from what you do everyday and what I do? You wake up from sleeping, you take your bath, brush your teeth, pray, eat breakfast, walk, work, pray again, eat again, use the bathroom, drive a car maybe, playing computer log on into internet, and later you sleep again. How many people don't do that? What is recommended in the Qur'an and Hadith?

What else we should do then. Praying all the time, begging Allah all the time and less work for production? Is this you call what Qur'an want people to do?

If any of these or all of them are wrong, tell me how should we live everyday according to Qur'an and Sunnah. Or at least the way you live "as if" you are the true followers of Qur'an and Hadith?

>As for country which is truly
>Islamic...there are many countries today,
>or several I should say,
>which each is implementing this
>or that aspect of Islam.
>Yet...sadly, there is no one
>country itself which is totally
>and fully implementing Islam in
>it's fullest and truest form.
>That has yet to happen.

This is a point to discuss. What sort of Policy, Socially, Politically, economically, financially, Judiacially in order for it to be claimed as Islamic in fullest and truest form the way you claim?

Sister Lulua said,

">As for sustenance or anything else
>that anyone should need in
>this life...or protection or deliverance
>from oppression...none should ever disregard
>the power of prayer...the effect
>of dua."

Keep on praying and doa then. Definately the food would not be on the table just by doing that. But even not doing that, you will have food on the table by work for it. This is the fact.

Praying and doa are the psychological approach for moslems not easily be despair. Work and learn. Keep on finding the best solution for any problem. Not for having solution that create another major problem.

Sister Lulua said,

"Merely relate to
>the Quran...to receive evidences and
>reminders of those who came
>before us...those who were in
>dire situations, yet they remembered
>to turn to Allah in
>prayer, asking for His help
>and deliverance from the terror
>of the situation that they
>were in at the moment.

This is what I mean. Allah is stronger than any problem maker. So don't be afraid. Allah is in us. When we are right, even the sea will open the path for us. ( Moses and pharoah). You want to understand this literally or poetically? Allah will only help us in the form of we are helping ourselve.


Sister lulua said,

">It is the human's own arrogance
>or perhaps forgetfulness of the
>power of the prayer and
>supplication...which many times puts him
>into a worse situation, finding
>actually no way out. When
>a person remembers and humbles
>himself to the point of
>asking for help, asking for
>deliverance, and remembering Allah, turning
>to Him in his time
>of need, and truly asking
>ONLY Him...then that is when
>the time of help is
>near. "

Don't you think how many people praying about saving Palestinian from Israelites. Do you think Palestinian don't pray for Allah to help them? Now people pray for USA to help and condemn them when they don't help. Something is not correct somewhere.

Whatabout some other country that someone call backward? Don't they pray too? Afghanistan or Iraq. You still believe illusion answer for the reality problem. This is very sad and I feel so sorry.


Sister Lulua said,

">Allah helps those who turn to
>Him...but He is waiting for
>the people to turn to
>Him, and to ask of
>Him, to seek their forgiveness,
>recognize their own faults, and
>to humbly seek forgiveness and
>help.

Sister, how should Palestenian feel reading this comment from you. This shows "as if" either Allah do not want to help them or They do not pray good enough? What kind of fault should these Palestenians recognize?

Sister Please wake up. Live in reality. Stop dreaming and living in illusion. If 1.2 billion moslems realy wakes up and stop living in illusion, and stop blaming others for their sufferings, Moslems will become the most respectful religion and respectful ummah. There will be no more Islamophobic Incidents.


Islamic history showed how the slaves who were oppresed before at the time of Prophet Muhammad was just a boy stand behind him when he started fought for their freedom. These oppresed slaves were non moslems later when they saw Prophet Muhammad personality and with his ideology were very fair and just, they follow him. This ideology was what we call Islam.

But If you want to interpret it in the form of magical explanation, like he was chosen by Allah, Allah already decided that way, or Allah create miracle, it will be you with your magical explanation and I am with my logical explanation.

Once again logic means repeatable incidence, occurance or events.

Luque.


p/s. Lulua, you have got mind. But Please put it in the right path and you can see the light. The light of answer of how or what can be done to have life where people are free from fright, and live in harmony, peacefully, and happy.

Yes in the Qur'an does mention but not in the literal meaning, it is in the poetic meaning.

Qur'an is meant for each of us to understand it whenever we encounter problems in our lives. The moment it is read out in the form of literal meaning, you will have .......

Qur'an is individuals' faith. Qur'an was in you even before you read it. Allah already planted Qur'an in each soul even before one was borned. That Qur'an has never been distorted. Trust that one. Whatever faith one has, Qur'an is inside him. I think you can help me finding that verse for me.

See ya Sis.

You are very interesting and intelligent. Only too much illusion.