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Hasan
07-10-2001, 17:55
Salaam

Don't let the title mislead you, this isn't the definitive answer to that question, but rather an open discussion of why many Muslim brothers may make that choice. Of course we know that it is permissible for a muslim man to marry a chaste woman "of the book", so I don't want to come across as degrading any muslim brother who does make that choice.

What I wanted to concentrate on, and what trend I have seen(particularly in the west) is why muslim men may be choosing to marry non-muslim women over muslim women. Again, a brother is well within his rights to do so, but this can be disheartening to muslim women seeing a good number of men that they are only allowed to wed, choose to do so with a non-muslim woman.

From my perspective of the issue (and I'm very interested in hearing others as well) the main reason for this isn't very complicated or as deviuos as it may sound to some, but rather a result of a religious and cultural collision of Islam and Western culture. In understanding this we need to look no further than the fundamental reasons for a relationship to start. And to me that is first by seeing, and then by communicating, which is the part I want to focus on.

Islamically the way we conduct ourselves between the sexes is to lower our gaze and not indulge in casual intermingling. Myself, I would feel quite awkward just chatting it up with a sister after Jumah, as I'm sure the sister would. Not that I think the sister doesn't have anything interesting to say, or that she doesn't want someone to talk to her, but we abstain from it to preserve our modesty toward one another as Allah commands us to. So obviously communication is in a way limited here, but not altogether forsaken.

On the western culture side we know things are not the same. In the business that I work at, and perhaps like you all as well, men and women are working together at the office conducting business and running a company. The idea in the west is that men and women are practically the same, so should be treated the same.
(Going to side track a bit)
Now that is partially true in Islam but not completely. Allah tells us that we are created from the same nufs(soul or being), but we are "assembled" so to speak, differently giving us different roles and responsibilities. Just like a hammer and a screw driver are both made from metal and wood, but since they are put together differently they serve a different purpose. But no one would say that a hammer is more important than a screw driver or vise versa. The same is the case with men and women, created slightly differently but both important.
(Back to the main issue)
So since they feel that men and women should be treated the same in the work place that means men and women shaking hands on deals, men and women looking at each other to discuss business, men and women working late hours away from their families to get the job done. So on this end we see that communication is obviously encouraged much more between men and women, almost a necessity.

So what I said earlier about muslim men choosing non-muslim women over muslim women was in a way misleading as the men aren't really making a choice, they're just seem to be going with the more visible and vocal option. Because if one is able to build good communications with someone from the opposite sex it's the first big step in starting a serious relationship. And due to this collision of Islamic belief and western culture in our lives it creates almost a disadvantage for many muslim women because not everyone is playing by the same rules.

But I do want to make the point that this shouldn't worry muslim women too much as there are many many muslim men who wouldn't settle for anything other than a muslimah to be their wife. And their faith allows them to look beyond what the eye can see and the ear and hear. So don't feel that non-muslim women are stealing all your men away, but as reasons stated above some brothers may opt to marry someone with whom they have established good communications with.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Please let me know what you feel about this.

Mardhiah
14-10-2001, 05:07
Assalamualaikum brother,
For your information, nobody(well not everyone) cares whether our Muslim brothers marry non-muslim or not.After all, there are advantages; like bringing their wives to right path.However what we see now are mostly disappointing.Those who marry non-muslims are usually not practicing Islamic ways.With that children are born not knowing what the real purpose of life is.What sadden more is that the wives embraced Islam themselves and becoming more religious while the husbands still with what they choose to be.
"And do not marry Al-Mushrikât (idolatresses, etc.) till they believe (worship Allâh Alone). And indeed a slave woman who believes is better than a (free) Mushrikah (idolatress, etc.), even though she pleases you. And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikûn till they believe (in Allâh Alone) and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater, etc.), even though he pleases you. Those (Al-Mushrikûn) invite you to the Fire, but Allâh invites (you) to Paradise and Forgiveness by His Leave, and makes His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to mankind that they may remember."(2:221)

From I read,there is no strong evidences showing the marriage to believing women is halal.A khilaf is going on between the 'ulama'.

This dalil can proof it is halal:
Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz:
Anas said, 'When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, 'Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.' He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, 'Muhammad (has come).' (Some of our companions added, "With his army.") We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Allah's Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.' So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her."
Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Anas added, "While on the way, Um Sulaim dressed her for marriage (ceremony) and at night she sent her as a bride to the Prophet . So the Prophet was a bridegroom and he said, 'Whoever has anything (food) should bring it.' He spread out a leather sheet (for the food) and some brought dates and others cooking butter. (I think he (Anas) mentioned As-SawTq). So they prepared a dish of Hais (a kind of meal). And that was Walrma (the marriage banquet) of Allah's Apostle ." (bukhari)
However, that is before the decent of the verse (5:3):
"This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allâh is Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful."

'and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion' shows that no other religion is accepted after this last verse.

Mardhiah Mansor

Dr Qaisar
21-10-2001, 02:44
As-salaamu-alaikum, Sr.Mardhiah

I would like to request a humble clarification from you with regard to your statement below contained in your reply:

> "From I read, there is no strong evidences showing > the marriage to believing women is halal. A khilaf is > going on between the ‘ulama‘.

> This dalil can prove it is halal."


I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that ,perhaps, you actually meant "unbelieving women" instead of "believing women" above and I assume it may be a typing error. That's the only way I see the logic of quoting the hadith mentioned in your reply ie. of the Prophet marrying Safia bint Huyai during the expedition to Khaibar. Otherwise, it would imply that the marriage of a non-muslim man to a believing women is halal or not, which obviously is not allowed, according to the Sharia. This being the case (ie. of a typing error), then, perhaps, it would make more sense and a much stronger daleel if the following verse (V.5:5) had been quoted instead of the hadith, whereby the marriage of a believing man is allowed with a women from the People of the Book:

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is made lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage ) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- When you give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness. Taking them as lovers. If anyone rejects faith, fruitless is his work, And in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)."


Wa-salaam,
Dr.Qaisar

Mardhiah
21-10-2001, 13:10
Waalaikumussalam,

There is no typing error in my reply.Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.What I was trying to say is that the hadiths I qouted and the verse(5:5),you gave, is before the decent of the last verse (5:3):"This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allâh is Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful."
This mean that the religions of books are still accepted before the completion of the Quran.Now it was already completed.Thus, marrying believing women other than Islam is not valid anymore.Sorry if I'm offending anyone.Just giving out my view.
By the way, Safia is a jew, can be considered a believing woman.

Mardhiah Mansor

Dr Qaisar
22-10-2001, 02:22
As-salaamu-alaikum, Sr. Mardhiah


>This mean that the religions of
>books are still accepted before
>the completion of the Quran.Now
>it was already completed.Thus, marrying
>believing women other than Islam
>is not valid anymore.Sorry if
>I'm offending anyone.Just giving out
>my view.
>By the way, Safia is a
>jew, can be considered a
>believing woman.


Thank you for the clarification that there was no error in your preceding post. Nevertheless, it must be pointed out that the last revealed verse (V.5:3) does not abrogate in any way the provision & permission contained in V.5:5 allowing the marriage of a Muslim man with a women from among the People of the Book. Though one is entitled to one's point of view, still he/she should be well-advised to exercise caution in expressing an opinion with regard to what is allowed or not allowed in Islam (‘halaal vs. haraam‘). At the same time I am not aware if any opinion to the contrary has been expressed or exists in the 4 schools of thought. If so, I would like to know.
Another point to note is that it is not as if all the provisions, practices or traditions of the People of the Book prevalent at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) were valid (from the point of Islam) till the revelation of the last verse (V.5:3); in fact most (if not, all) the personal & social laws governing the individual believer and the Ummat in general are contained in Sura Al-Baqarah revealed quite early after the hijrat to Medinah (eg. change of Qibla, fasting in Ramadhan etc.). These, as we know, made the ummat distinct & different in organisation from those of the People of the Book. And the Jews & Christians were obliged to accept the messengership of the Prophet (PBUH) and follow him only and discard their laws & customs according to the previous Revelations. This was even so before the completion of the Qur'an. One may note that we Muslims are asked by Allah only to believe in but not to follow the previous Books, as in V.2:4

"And who believe in the Revelation sent to you, and sent before your time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter".


As to the question of the Prophet (PBUH) marrying Safia ( a Jewess) during the expedition to Khaibar, it is immaterial to dwell on the notion whether she had embraced Islam or not at the time of or after her marriage to the Prophet (PBUH); for in any case the marriage would have been deemed to be perfectly valid & legal according to the provisions contained in V.5:5.


Wa-salaam,
Dr Qaisar

Mardhiah
24-10-2001, 10:53
LAST EDITED ON 29-10-01 AT 06:11 AM (GMT)[p]Waalaikumussalam,
You know I attended a lecture talk and the ustaz said the same thing as you did.Maybe I should check back the source of my reading.But isn't it better to play safe? Let me point something out from the book 'Al-Umm';
It is allowed for Muslim brothers to marry believing women,because Allah Ta'alah has allowed so without any exceptions.I (imam Syafi'i) preferred if those women are not married to Muslim brothers.
Told to us by Abdul-Majid from Ibnu Juraij, from Abiz-Zubair,that he heard Jabir bin Abdullah was asked about the marriage of Muslims brothers with Jewish and Christian women.Thus, he replied:"We married those women in the opening(conquering) of Kofah with Sa'ad bin Abi Waqassh.We almost found out that Muslim women were very few.However we divorced them when we get back home."
Jabir bin abdullah said:"Those believing women cannot waris(what is this word in English? take over?) anything to the Muslims.And Muslims cannot 'take over' from them.Those women are halal to us but our women are not to them." I would search for a better translation for this Qaul.Insya' Allah.The meaning is there, it is for the best of the future children.
And you do have a point about Safia.There is no knowing whether she embraced Islam before or after the marriage.Only Allah knows best.Till then,thank you for sharing your view.May Allah be with you always.

Mardhiah Mansor

Lulua
28-10-2001, 15:48
Assalaamu alaikum.

The word you're questioning here, sr. Mardhiah...'waris'...can and should be spelt another way (not your mistake...probably the mistake of the originator of the literature)...and that is 'warith'. This is because many ppl...mainly of the Egyptian and nearby pronounce the 'th' sound of the arabic letter 'tha' as 's'...making that word which is truly 'warith' into 'waris'. 'Warith' means to inherit.

Anyways...the ulema are at a difference of opinion as to which is best...for muslim men to remain with strictly muslim women, or to perhaps marry those other women of their choice...who are chaste women from the 'people of the Book' (i.e. Christians and Jews). All people will naturally have their varrying opinions upon which is best...but the point remains...that Allah has made is permissable...and it is not for any man (or woman for that matter) to go back upon that and attempt to make a new legislation in prohibiting such a marriage. It is permissable. As for recommendable...that remains the choice of the individual, according to his own situation, family, etc.

One point to raise is that in many cases it has proven to be a catalyst for the woman concerned to become a muslim, (the concerned woman from other religion)...and therefore also a catalyst in spreading the message of Islam to her family as well. It is a great possibility and chance for dawah which a man who is presented with the chance should not pass up. However, no marriage should be entered into without concentrating well on the possible problems that may eventually arise due to their (the two partners) differing backgrounds, including and most importantly their religions. Particularly if the woman should never become a muslim. It can and many times is quite difficult for the resulting children.

Lulua.