PDA

View Full Version : My Story


Lulua
21-04-2002, 19:29
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

Netcurtains has requested since a long time for my story of what impressed me to become a muslim. It has taken me some time to compose it, and I hope and pray that it shall prove to be even of the slightest inspiration either to him, or to others viewing, to better understand not only my own reasons for accepting Islam, but perhaps some insight into the special truthfulness and purity of Islam as a message.

Br. Asif has also requested the same of me once, impressing upon me that people need to know the reasons that has led others to Islam.

I did not honor that request, mainly because I hate attracting attention to myself in particular. And it is far from my intention to do so. I only present my story here in the hopes and prayers that others shall be impressed to see the truth of Islam, as I myself have come to understand it.

I try to get that across in my debates and discussions, but sometimes the anger shows through, or impatience for the misunderstandings of others. This is a great human fault of mine that I am slowly learning and attempting to overcome.

wa-salaam.
Lulua.

====================

BismAllah Alrahman Alrahim

I was raised a Christian, by parents who followed and were members of the Methodist Church, a branch of the Protestant preference within Christianity. Although my parents insisted that we younger children (my sister and myself) attended Church services and Church gatherings and activities regularly, and my parents themselves would attend the regular Church services as well as some of the extra activities from time to time, still they were moderate in their basic belief and the eminating of their belief. They were good people, but not outwardly religious people. They believed in the existence of God, but their lives did not revolve around that belief. Rather, their lives revolved around our daily lives and activities. A typically western and American way of life. The religious periods of our lives existed for and during those times of Church attendance.

I can remember as a young girl asking questions in Sunday School and in Bible Study groups and such, questions which the answers given did not satisfy me, but efficiently kept me quiet for a time for the comfort of all concerned-my elders and myself. But my quiet was not a satisfaction from receiving explicable answers, but a silence of receding into acceptance of what was said merely for the fact of it being said, and my ignorance of the world in that I did not realize that there existed anything beyond Christianity.

I realized that there were other religions, of course, but none seemed logically acceptable to investigate for real, even though my knowledge of those religions was admittedly limited. Bhuddism and Hinduism and some of the other ‘strange’ eastern religions seemed obviously unacceptable because of their own outright admittance to idolatry-worshipping many gods, or a ‘created’ god. Judaism was more well known to be closely related to Christianity and similar, in that the basic belief is belief in one God, yet it seemed completely out of the question because of it’s unacceptance of Jesus, something which I could not fathom. To enter into Judaism seemed like a step backwards, rather than a step forwards.

As a young girl, I began to ask questions of my elders in the Church, questions which no one could or would satisfactorily answer for me. When I noticed how in so many pictures depicting Mary or Jesus or the Apostles or other notary subjects of Christianity, the women dressed so modestly and even covering their heads, and asked admiringly of it, why do we not also follow suit, if we are followers of this Jesus? The answers that I got were replies like: ‘That was then, and this is now. Times have changed and fashions have changed’ or, laughing: ‘We are more modern and developed now. No need to wear that kind of coverings.’ These answers did not make sense to me, but I could sense and even see the surprise and even sometimes anger at my bringing up or noticing such things.

As I grew older and entered into my teen years, I began to ask more serious and deep questions, questions which would have no answer other than the truth, and questions which no one who intended to remain tied to the church could answer. My questions began to delve into the very heart of modern day Christianity, the question of the trinity. I would ask things like: ‘If God is one, then how can there be a trinity?’ and: ‘If God is truly one, then how is it that we can worship Jesus?’ and many other such questions. The answers were always rather round-about, and non-explanatory, and demanding that this is the way that it is, and that I must accept, and I will not be saved unless and until I accept blindly, without logical explanation. So, out of fear of being lost, I accepted, but it was an acceptance without true belief or conviction. I did not realize that there even existed anything beyond Christianity, and so I devoted myself to this religion, even though I felt that there was much in question and truly much wrong with it. And although I was not satisfied with it completely, still I did not devote myself to a search for anything else, because mainly my knowledge of the world and what was in it was very limited, and I thought that what little I knew of world religions was all that there was to be known. I just assumed that I was missing some important link of this Christianity, and that someday it would eventually come to me.

In my first year in college, I by chance met a young man on campus, who introduced himself to me, stating where he was from (which I later learned was some mysterious country in the middle east), and even telling me on that first meeting of his religious affiliation. His exact words were: ‘I am a Muslim.’ I said: ‘What is that? What country is that?’ (this is the extent of my ignorance of even the existence of Islam as a religion). He laughed at that response, and proceeded to explain that ‘Muslim’ is a word which designates someone who follows and practices the religion of Islam. Then I asked what is Islam? He proceeded to explain to me the basic tenets of Islam, stressing on the point of ‘tawheed’, i.e. the belief and eminating of that belief into practice of One God. Then I told him that as Christians, we too believed in one God. But he said that it is different. That the Christians also worshipped Jesus along with God, and so they were in fact idol-worshippers, or polytheists. At this comment, I became insulted and even a bit angry. I tried to explain, but he insisted on his stance that Christians today were in fact polytheists. He apparently sensed that this was going a bit in the wrong direction, and so he dropped it for now, and we merely became friends and sometimes studied together on campus.

He later introduced me to a friend of his, from the same country, who was married, and had his wife, also from the same country, with him. They were also very nice, and interested in helping me to better understand Islam. This couple were dedicated to insuring that I had correct information on Islam. Whether they themselves would sit and talk with me, explaining what they could of Islam, or providing for me books, booklets, and even a copy of the Quran translated into English. The extent of the books that they provided for me explained only the basic tenets of Islam, i.e. the ‘pillars’. But the Quran had much more, of course. The couple would frequently invite me to their apartment for a meal or for tea and sweets, or for an outing to the beach or countryside, etc., in order that they get to know me better, and by this method I would witness Islam in practice as well. I saw them during their times of fasting and breaking the fast in Ramadhan, and I witnessed their prayers. I can recall one time in particular when I was present for their prayer, and I had been sitting on the couch before their prayer commenced. By this time I realized that they would face a certain way (although I did not understand yet why). This time, it so happened that their prayer was to face in the direction of the couch upon which I was sitting. I felt self-conscious, that they were praying in a directing seeming to me as if it was directed towards me, and began to move to get out of the way. They all signaled to me to sit just where I was. So I obeyed, and sat still during the endurance of their prayer, patiently, yet quite self-conscious, and uncomfortable, that I was in the direction of their prayer, sitting in front of them, able to view their faces during the prayer. I noticed that they did not actually look at me, so their prayer was obviously not directed at me, yet I was quite uncomfortable that their prayer should be directed in a way that I was in the path of it. I could not understand this odd feeling, yet it was strong and quite uncomfortable.

It took me a period of approximately a year and a little more before I was convinced of Islam. I read all the books provided for me, which actually only told me of the aspects of the requirements of the Muslim. From time to time, the couple, in particular the woman, would press me, trying to insist or pressure me into becoming a Muslim. It was those pressures from her which would push me back a little further, when perhaps I would have become a Muslim at an earlier stage. I was rather rebellious, and although there was much about Christianity that I did not like and did not understand, still I did not like being pressured. Islam was strange to me, although everything that I learned made sense. Still it was strange and different, and that made it frightening. I did not know of any Muslims other than my friends which I had made at college, as well as the many other foreign students which I knew attended the college. I did not know of an American Muslim community, nor did I realize that Islam would and already was growing as it was in America. So the aspect of Islam seemed frightening to me, because I knew that these friends who had introduced me to Islam would soon be leaving for their home countries when their education was finished. And if I were to become a Muslim, then who would be companion and mentor for me in this new religion, if those who introduced me to it would leave? This was all playing on my mind frequently.

As I continued to read the Quran, it became to be more clear and made more sense, even though it was quite different in presentation than the Bible which I was more familiar with. Before reading it, I assumed that it would be similar to the Bible in text and presentation, and therefore as I began to read, it was confusing to me when it seemed non-consistent. A passage would mention one subject matter, and then there would be a passage of some remembrance of God, and then into another passage of another subject matter, followed again by a passage of remembrance of God. And so on and so on. But then I began to realize that such passages of remembrance of God were comparatively little in the Bible, and that this first-seemingly inconsistency was in fact a way of constantly reminding the reader of the true omnipotence of God, of God’s unending mercy and forgiveness, and of the need in us for that mercy and forgiveness. Such seeming inconsistency began to make sense and seem right.

There were still points of Islam which were either confusing to me, or even unacceptable. Points in particular like: polygamy, to name only one. And even the point of the covering for the woman. Although I had admired it as a young girl, it was still something new, and something which I was not accustomed to. Then I became angry and even rebellious that I had been introduced to this Islam. I began to wish that I had never come to know of it. I began to feel a burden on myself, pulling me in two opposite directions. I knew that if I was to accept Islam and become a Muslim, that my family would never be supportive of me in such a decision. This was apparent to me from their response when I told them of my friends that I had met at college, and that they were Muslims, and that I was learning of Islam. I was not yet inclined to become a Muslim, yet I felt that I was being pulled in that direction. And my parent’s reaction when I told them of my friends, was a facial expression which showed it all. They were not surprised or ignorant of Islam itself. It was obvious that they not only knew that it existed, but they also knew what it was and what it entailed. Then why had they kept that knowledge from me all these years? They were angry and upset that I had not only met but made friends with Muslims, and was spending much of my time with them, learning of their religions and their lifestyles. In fact, they went so far as to order me to never see these people again, nor to accept any gifts from them (especially literature). I quietly agreed, to please them and reassure them that I was still their little girl and in their grips, but in my heart, I made a stronger conviction to see these people more often, and learn as much as I could of this religion which my own parents were so adamantly against. It was their anger and fear at this religion which enticed me to learn more.

I continued to read of the Quran, and there was one verse in particular which made a strong emphasis and impression upon my soul. As I continued to read through the Quran, and on various topics, this verse kept on playing on my mind, and bothering me to an extent that I needed to seek some guidance. The verse in question:

‘And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.’ S. 3, v. 85.

It bothered me, because, if it is true, then it meant that since I had come to know of this verse, then my adherence to Christianity was now invalid. I could no longer with any true sense of conscious continue in Christianity. I attended the Church and even Bible study sessions, yet it all seemed so wrong now, and even false. Even the minister and other elders of the church, in particular those in charge of the Bible study group, noticed my change of mind of blind acceptance to the explanation of Christianity, and in particular of the trinity. I returned to asking the disturbing questions of the basic tenet of Christianity, the trinity, and was angrily not satisfied with their explanations and declarations of the necessity for blind faith. I was no longer accepting of this, and it was showing in my angry questions and comments to their answers. I became unsatisfied with the Church, it’s members, and their attempts at answers, and I increasingly ceased even going. There was no longer any point in it. I began to seek guidance on my own, even angered and turned off at this point from Islam by the attempts of my friends who lovingly, yet wrongly at that time, tried to push me into becoming a Muslim. Their intents were perhaps good, yet their pressures they made on me at times to become a Muslim only served to push me further from Islam. I continued to read the Quran, but there were still many questions in my mind on Islam, which the Quran did not seem to answer for me at the time. It was that one verse which continued to impress upon me the importance of Islam, in particular since I had come to know of it.

I became angered even that I had learned of Islam. It seemed that I was going in a direction in which I needed to accept it, yet I was frightened. All was new, and I did not yet understand it all, nor did I truly like all that Islam offered and demanded of it’s adherents. Yet I was frightened that I should be left in abyss if I should reject it, because of the point that this particular verse got across.

Finally, I decided to hurl myself into prayer. I tried to wash as I had seen the Muslims wash, but realized that I did not really know exactly how or in what method or order. I ended up taking a complete shower. Then I commenced to face in a direction which I felt at the time was right. I firstly made sure that my bedroom door was locked, so that no one would enter and bother me in my time of devotion and seeking. I began by standing, contemplating on the supremacy of God, and my smallness and total need for Him, and also contemplating on the wonders of the world. Then I proceeded to bow for a time, also contemplating on the supremacy of God, and then returned to stand. Then I got down on the floor on my hands and knees, all the time copying the format to an extent of what I had seen of the Muslims’ prayers, and then prostrated my forehead on the floor, again contemplating on the supremacy of God, and the wonders of His creation, and asking God sincerely for forgiveness and guidance. Then I stood again, and proceeded on in the same format. I continued this alternating of positions for some time, as much as seemed right, and then my final position was a prostration on the floor, and then I remained in this position sitting on the floor, pleading to God, crying by now, even shaking from the crying, for some sign for some guidance of which way to go: i.e. to become a Muslim or to reject Islam.

I did not sleep all that night, only stayed awake contemplating and looking for a sign. Then next day I called my Muslim friends and told them that I needed to see them. When I met them, the woman asked me why was I not yet becoming a Muslim. She insisted with me that I knew enough of Islam by now, and that was when I told them that I felt that I would become a Muslim. But I also confided in them my fear that I would not be able to live and learn as a Muslim in my parent’s home. If I was to become a Muslim, I needed help. It was then that the man who had first introduced me to Islam suggested to me that we get married. It was not a surprise, yet it seemed rather questionable. Most generally American lifestyles today do not promote such an early marriage. I had only recently graduated from high school, and truly I did not yet know this man very well, particularly according to western and non-Muslim standards of dating and knowing another person. We agreed to marry, on the condition that I become a Muslim first, and then proceed to continue with the marriage. And so we did. My marriage to this man facilitated and helped me in my beginning as a Muslim, and facilitated my growth through the years as a Muslim.

On a later trip back to visit my parents, and after having experienced Islam, and learned the prayers more correctly now, and knowing of the direction of the prayer and the reason for it, I noticed that the direction that I inadvertently directed myself that night alone in my parents home was in fact the correct direction of the Muslim prayer, i.e. towards the designated direction of the Kaaba in Makkah.

When I later expressed to my parents my decision of entering into Islam, they rejected it with the fiercest of ferocity which was foreign to me to witness in my parents. The passive compliant parents that I had known for all my life had suddenly transformed into monsters of anger and hatred and even rejection. My loving parents had suddenly changed into hate-mongers who rejected even their own daughter. They threatened me with severing ties, claiming that if I shall proceed in this measure, that I could consider myself not their daughter any more. When they came to realize my conviction to Islam, my choice of accepting Allah’s message of Islam over them, they became angered to the point of declaring that which they had threatened, i.e. severed their ties with me, declared me no longer their daughter, and even told me to forget any possibility of inheritance from them. By this time, although it was a heartbreak to have them cut me off as their daughter, any inheritance from them was the furthest thing from my mind. Although I had no guarantee of job or income, I did not care about such an insignificant thing compared to eternal salvation. And who is to guarantee that perhaps I shall not die before them, and in turn never inherit them? I turned to Allah, seeking guidance and consolance in prayer, and truly felt safe and secure with the promise of Allah’s help. I meekly accepted their threats and declarations, without argument, let them take their course of anger and rejection. And I abided by their insistence that I not attempt to contact them. I would from time to time speak to one of my sisters or my brother, inquiring on the health and well-being of our parents, but they had insisted that I not contact them any more, and so I abided by their wishes. After a period of several months went by, perhaps six, my parents contacted me, with the wish to see me. I agreed with such a meeting, and they traveled to visit me in my own home with my husband, and they emotionally regretted their previous rejection of me as their daughter. It was needless to say that it was an emotional time for all concerned. But my patience and perseverance served well. For they came to realize that this was a true conviction of my heart, my entrance into Islam, and not merely a passing phase that could be affected by their anger or orders or pleadings. I was an adult now, and by all reasons of knowledge and understanding, I was capable of making my own decisions. And when they witnessed for themselves my own conviction to this religion, and my happiness in that decision, they accepted the fact for what it was: I was no longer a Christian, but a Muslim now. And no worldly threats could convince me otherwise.

I thank Allah everyday for having led me and guided me to Islam, and blessed me with the life of the Muslimah that I am. I only ask Allah that He continues to guide me daily, and enhances me with knowledge and wisdom to grow in Islam. My only regrets are that it took me so long to finally become a Muslim. As a young girl, I was searching, yet was discouraged from that search by the very lifestyle and habits of the religion of Christianity. I am ever grateful that the message of Islam was finally presented to me. I have also often regretted the beginning years of my entrance into Islam were taken up and busied by learning only the basics of Islam, and then keeping busy with married life and the beginning of a family, as well as keeping busy with learning a new language and way of life, after moving with my husband to his home country. I was caught up with the daily activities of daily life, and had little time nor energy for the books. I have never felt that it was wasted, for everything has a meaning in life. But it has only been the recent past in which my children have grown to a point of not needing that constant care and attention that they needed in their beginning years, that I have been able to devote to learning more of my own religion. It is an experience of delight with which I devote myself to acquiring knowledge for the sake of Allah, for the sake of helping Islam and spreading the word of Islam. Alhamdulillah, I have been a practicing Muslimah now for 24 years, and I pray that Allah shall guide me to continue in this path and increase until my last breath. And I still have so much more to learn. I hope now to help others as I was once helped.

Learning Islam, living Islam, and being a muslim, has given me a different aspect on life and religion. Coming from a Christian background, there is little that I do not know about Christianity. I have ‘experienced’ Christ, as the Christians like to say, and I have experienced Islam as well. I have experienced a truly special relationship with God in both religions. I am fortunate. Others are not. Many muslims have not experienced another religion and another life, and so they cannot understand Christianity to such an extent, nor do they have the patience with Christians when they preach their religion. They reject the preaching of the Christians not only with the knowledge of Islam, but as well with a measure of fear and unrest because of their ignorance of Christianity. I reject Christianity with a simple rejection of knowledge and faith and understanding. It is because of my past in Christianity, that I have more conviction and faith in the truth of Islam. And it is this truth and faith that I hope and pray to relate to others.

I realize that my knowledge in Islam is limited, and that I still have much to learn. But that is the joy and pleasure and intrigue of Islam, that it is a learning process till the time of our death. It is a religion based on logic, understanding, knowledge, comparison, and truth. Not blind faith as is in Christianity. Such as a love of fatuation to wither and die eventually, so the emotional roller-coaster of Christianity is bound to drop some time or another. The logic and truth of Islam is eternally appealing, and is the bond which not only attracts people to Islam, but as well bonds them to the belief and practice of the religion in all walks of life. Islam is truly a way of life, and not only a religion to be observed on particular days or during a worship service. It is a way of life, dictating acceptable behavior for all possible situations. It is truly the way to salvation.

For surely, no one is deserving of the title ‘Lord’ other than God. May we forever praise Him, and may He forgive us our sins and have mercy upon us.

Sadiq
25-04-2002, 12:58
A very interesting story. I hope the 'christian' background which you have sister, use this to help those on this IWC and on the net.

May allah reward you for your work and accept you and those who return to thier fitrah in jannah.

Any more stories?...any more members?..Mashallah!

Sadiq

Bukhoriy
21-05-2002, 09:31
I am very happy for you sister.
May Alloh give you more knowledge and sabr to become example for other people of the book.

Netcurtains
21-05-2002, 10:44
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-05-02 AT 11:19 AM (GMT)]Thankyou for your story.
I am amazed that any Christian can become a Muslim.
But obviously you are proof that some can.
I am stunned. Of course I know many muslims who become
christians but you are the first that seems to have
gone the other way. Although having said that (it was
Penacost on sunday) it does appear from your story that
you never accpeted Christianity to begin with. You
asked questions about the "trinity" which implies you
did not accept it. Was there a point in your life that
you seriously looked into Christianity? Have you been on
an ALPHA course and SERIOUSLY looked at the Christians
arguments as presented by Christians? Perhaps you should
before you reject it out of hand.

I mean take for example the Qu'ran. It says Trinitarians
think that Mary is part of the Trinty. This is clearly nonsense.
The Qu'ran says that Jews think the Prophet EZRA is God (in the same way as Christians see Jesus as god).
Surely this makes no sense to you? (edited out by me as could be considered rude - not meant to be though). No offence but I call it how I see it.

God Bless you and thankyou for your story - most thought provoking.
It will need very very very careful analysis.

Rasha
21-05-2002, 11:51
MashaAllah sis... wonderful story... loved it.

Netty.... there are many many many who converted from Christianity to islam... read their stories online... there are quite few in IWC itself.... and tones more.

We get around 3 - 5 converts every friday in my area!! There are tones of American/Canadian and many more European converts. Its just you don't know about them because you don't look to see them.

And a correction, the Quraan says that the Jews say Ozair is the SON of God not God. The Jews believe in one God....

Netcurtains
21-05-2002, 12:36
Rasha,

"
The Jews call cUzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth. [Qur'ân 9:30]"


Come on it is not part of the mainsteam Jewish faith to think Ezra is
the Son of God and it is not part of Mainsteam Christianity to think Mary is god. The Nicene Creed makes no mention of Mary. It is true some catholics think highly of Mary but if you consider that they think her god then you must think that these catholics are Quadratarians (not Trinitarians)?

I have read a few sections of the Qu'ran - It does not compute to me. Having said that vaste chunks of the Torah (old testament) do not compute to me either. The MIDDLE books (the Gospels) - well I'll not preach. I can see that St Pauls explanations of the Gospels might be wrong in that he is associated with killing someone. I find it hard to accept anything a killer says. He was a reformed killer, in that he joined the side he was persecuting. This helps me.
Having said that driving a car is killing people. Thousands die either from accidents or pollution. Perhaps we don't get great holy men now as we are all guilty of murder because we drive.

Netcurtains
21-05-2002, 12:43
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-05-02 AT 11:56 AM (GMT)]Is the OIL industry SATANIC?
It is the foundation stone of MODERN Western Civilisation. It is the driving force of the car. Pollution and cars kill. Oil kills.

Money should be spent on Public transport, bicycles and alternative fuels.

...and Rasta, if you had 5 new converts each week then after a year you would have 260 Canadians/Americans in your Mosque as well as the normal numbers of Arabic and other muslims. Are you saying you get 260 anglo-saxon canadians turning up to your mosque each Friday OR are you saying you get 5 people coming staying a week or so and then never coming back? The TWO are very different.

servant_of_Allah
21-05-2002, 14:13
Netcurtains, before you make any comments about Islam, i suggest you go and learn more about Islam.

Allah says in the Qur'an : ?And the Jews say: ?Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah?s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!? [al-Tawbah 9:30]

I found an interesting article on this topic. I shall copy-paste it here.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:

cUzayr, who was exalted by a community of Jews, is identified as Ezra by Muslim commentators. The Qur'?n says:

The Jews call cUzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth. [Qur'?n 9:30]

Before we take care of the origin of the issue of exalting Ezra to son of God by some Jews, let us first discuss the life of the man himself.

Ezra (5th-4th century BC, Babylon and Jerusalem) was a religious leader of the Jews who returned from exile in Babylon, and a reformer who reconstituted the Jewish community on the basis of the Torah (Law, or the regulations of the first five books of the Old Testament). This monumental work of Ezra helped to make Judaism a religion in which law was central, that enabled the Jews to survive as a community when they were dispersed all over the world. Ezra has with some justice been called the father of Judaism since his efforts did much to give Jewish religion the form that was to characterize it for centuries after the specific form the Jewish religion took after the Babylonian Exile. So important was he in the eyes of his people that later tradition regarded him as no less than a second Moses(P). Regarding the tomb of Ezra Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

There are number of traditions concerning the site of Ezra's tomb. According to Josephus it is in Jerusalem; other hold that he was buried in Urta or in Zunzumu on the Tigris; but the general accepted version is that his tomb is situated in Uzer, a village near Basra. This tradition is mentioned by Benjamin of Tuleda, Pethahiah of Regensburg, Judah Alharizi, and other travelers, Jewish and non-Jewish who visited Babylonia.[1]

It is to be kept in mind that the knowledge about Ezra is derived from the Biblical books of Ezra and Nehemiah, supplemented by the Apocryphal (not included in the Jewish and Protestant canons of the Old Testament but present in Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox Churchs' canon) book of I Esdras (Latin Vulgate form of the name Ezra), which preserves the Greek text of Ezra and a part of Nehemiah.

It is interesting to note that the Jews in Arabia, during the advent of Islam, were involved in mystical speculation as well as anthromorphizing and worshipping an angel that functions as the substitute creator of the universe. That angel is usually identified as Metatron[2]. Newby notes that:

...we can deduce that the inhabitants of Hijaz during Muhammad's time knew portions, at least, of 3 Enoch in association with the Jews. The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim, the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah, but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive. It is easy, then, to imagine that among the Jews of the Hijaz who were apparently involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'?n 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted.[3]

The Islamic exegetes have mentioned that there existed a community of Jews in Yemen who considered Ezra as son of God. Hirschberg says in Encyclopaedia Judaica:

H Z Hirschberg proposed another assumption, based on the words of Ibn Hazm, namely, that the 'righteous who live in Yemen believed that 'Uzayr was indeed the son of Allah.' According to other Muslim sources, there were some Yemenite Jews who had converted to Islam who believed that Ezra was the messiah. For Muhammad, Ezra, the apostle (!) of messiah, can be seen in the same light as the Christian saw Jesus, the messiah, the son of Allah.[4]

George Sale makes an interesting comment concerning the Muslim as well as Judeo-Christian opinion on this issue.

This grievous charge against the Jews, the commentators endeavour to support by telling us, that it is meant of some ancient heterdox Jews, or else of some Jews of Medina; who said so for no other reason, than for that the law being utterly lost and forgotten during the Babylonish captivity, Ezra having been raised to life after he had been dead one hundred years, dictated the whole anew unto the scribes, out of his own memory; at which they greatly marvelled, and declared that he could not have done it, unless he were the son of God. Al-Beidawi adds, that the imputation must be true, because this verse was read to the Jews and they did not contradict it; which they were ready enough to do in other instances.

That Ezra did restore not only the Pentateuch, but also the other books of the Old Testament, by divine revelation, was the opinion of several of the Christian fathers, who are quoted by Dr.Prideaux, and of some other writers; which they seem to have first borrowed from a passage in that very ancient apocryphal book, called in our English Bible, the second book of Esdras. Dr. Prideaux tells us, that herein the Fathers attributed more to Ezra, than the Jews themselves, which he laboured much in, and went a great way in the perfecting of it. It is not improbable however, that the fiction came originally from the Jews, though they be now of another opinion, and I cannot fix it upon them by any direct proof. For, not to insist upon the testimony of the Mohammedans (which yet I cannot but think of some little weight in a point of this nature,) it is allowed by the most sagacious critics, that the second book of Ezra was written by a Chrisitian indeed, but yet one who had been bred a Jew, and was intimately acquainted with the fables of the Rabbins; and the story itself is perfectly in the taste and was of thinking of those men.[5]

Last but not the least, a Christian writer also proposed that Muhammad(P) got the information of Jews exalting Ezra to son of God from the Samaritans who said the Ezra had acted presumptuously and had changed the old divine alphabetical character of the holy Books of the Law - a character still used and revered to this day by rapidly dwindling Samaritan community.[6] This author concludes in a rather unchristian way that:

But it is not at all unlikely that the source of Mohammed's indictment of the Jews is to be found among the Samaritans or amongst Arab tribesmen of Samaritan strain. If we found in Samaritan literature the opposite belief that Ezra (or Uzair) was the son of Satan, we would be well-nigh sure of having settled the matter.[7]

And Allah knows best!

References

[1] Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 6, Encylopedia Judaica Jerusalem, p. 1108.

[2] G D Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59.

[3] Ibid, p. 61.

[4] Encyclopaedia Judaica, Ibid., p. 1108.

[5] George Sale, The Koran: IX Edition of 1923, London, p. 152.

[6] J Walker, Who Is 'Uzair?, The Moslem World, Volume XIX, No. 3, 1939, pp. 305-306.

[7] Ibid, p. 306.

Taken from http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/ezra.html





________
hashish (http://trichomes.org/hashish/full-melt-hash)

servant_of_Allah
21-05-2002, 14:19
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-05-02 AT 01:24 PM (GMT)]Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:

The following verses in the Qur'?n say about Mary(P) being the part of Trinity.

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'?n 5:116]

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'?n 4:171]

Therefore, the Christian missionaries for quite sometime have been saying that Muhammad(P) 'misunderstood' the true concept of Trinity, i.e, which says the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit constitute the trinitarian godhead.

Rev. W. St. Clair Tisdall in his book The Original Sources Of The Qur'?n says under Muhammad's Misconception Of The Doctrine Of The Trinity.

...Muhammad heard certain Christians make that there are three Gods, that is to say God the Father, Mary, and Jesus. It is perfectly plain from these verses that Muhammad really did believe that the Christian doctrine inculcated belief in three separate Divine persons, Jesus and Mary being two of them. But our third quotation implies that Muhammad - probably from what he had seen of "Christian" worship - thought that the order was Jesus, Mary, God, or Mary, Jesus, God. No reasonable man will wonder at the indignation with which Muhammad in God's name abjures such blasphemy. We must all feel regret that the idolatrous worship offered to Mary led Muhammad to believe that people who called her "Queen of Heaven" and "Mother of God" really attributed to her Divine attributes.[1]

After a bit of Catholic-bashing, Tisdall laments:

Had he been taught that the doctrine of the Unity of God is the very foundation of the Christian faith, he might have become a Christian reformer. He can never have heard the true explanation of the doctrine of Trinity in Unity, otherwise he would have learnt that Christian theologians spoke of the Father not as "the Third of Three" but as the very "Fount of Deity".[2]

It is quite clear that Tisdall is pretty much aware of the famous heresies in Arabia during the advent of Islam. George Sale in the preliminary discourse to his translation of The Koran writes:

But, to be more particular as to the nation we are now writing of, Arabia was of old famous for heresies; which might be in some measure attributed to the liberty and independency of the tribes. Some of the Christians of that nation believed the soul died with the body, and was to be raised again with it at the last day: these Origen is said to have convinced. Among the Arabs it was that the heresies of Ebion, Beryllus, and the Nazareans, and also that of the Collyridians, were broached, or at least propagated; the latter introduced the Virgin Mary for God, or worshipped her as such offering her a sort of twisted cake called collyris, whence the sect had its name.

This notion of the divinity of the Virgin Mary was also believed by some at the Council of Nice, who said there were two gods besides the Father viz. Christ and the virgin Mary, and were thence named Mariamites. Others imagined her to be exempt from humanity, and deified; which goes but little beyond the popish superstition in calling her the complement of the Trinity, as if it were imperfect without her. This foolish imagination is justly condemned in the Koran as idolatrous, and gave a handle to Mohammed to attack the Trinity itself.[3]

Commenting on verse 4:171, George Sale says:

Namely, God, Jesus and Mary. For the eastern writers mention a sect of Christians which held the Trinity to be composed of those three; but it is allowed that this heresy has been long since extinct. The passage, however, is equally levelled against the Holy Trinity, according to the doctrine of the orthodox Christians, who, as Al Beidawi acknowledges, believe the divine nature to consist of three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; by the Father, understanding God's essence, by the Son, his knowledge, and by the Holy Ghost, his life.[4]

It is pretty clear that whether the 'Holy' Trinity composed of the Father, Jesus(P) and the Mary(P) or the Father, Jesus(P) and the Holy Spirit are equally condemned in the Qur'?n. Any association of partners with the God is unacceptable.

Further Edward Gibbon in his book The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire says:

The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.[5]

So, there existed a sect in Arabia which exalted Mary(P) to goddess and included her in the godhead along with the Father and Jesus(P).

St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Constantia, in Cyprus, writing in the fourth century against the Collyridians, says:

"After this a heresy appeared, which we have already mentioned slightly by means of the letter written in Arabia about Mary. And this heresy was again made public in Arabia from Thrace and the upper parts of Scythia, and was brought to our ears, which to men of understanding will be found ridiculous and laughable. We will begin to trace it out, and to relate concerning it. It will be judged (to partake of) silliness rather than of sense, as is the case with other like it. For, as formerly, out of insolence towards Mary, those whose opinions were such sowed hurtful ideas in the reflexions of men, so otherwise these, leaning to the other side, fall into the utmost harm...... For the harm is equal in both these heresies, the one belittling the holy Virgin, the other again glorifying her over-much. For who should it be that teach thus but women? for the race of women is slippery, fallible, and humble-minded...... For some women deck out a koutrkon that is to say, a square stool, spreading upon it a linen cloth, on some solemn day of the year, for some days they lay out bread, and offer it in the name of Mary. All the women partake of the bread, as we related in the letter to Arabia, writing partly about that...... Yea, verily, the body of Mary was holy, but was surely not God. Verily, the Virgin was a virgin, and was honoured, but was not given to us to worship; but she worships Him who was born from her according to the flesh, having come from heaven out of the Father's bosom......" This offering and eating of cakes was probably derived from the worship of Artemis.[6]

Apart from the misogynist comments, St. Epiphanius makes quite clear basics of the Collyridian heresy. It is worthwhile adding that even to this day, the Catholic Christians consider Mary(P) as the Mother of God and prayers are sent to her.

Recently, it was heard from the Christian missionaries that the Qur'?n does not condemn the 'true' Trinity, i.e., which says the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit constitute the godhead. In fact, the Qur'?n itself condemns all sorts of shirk, i.e., associating partners with Allah. It would not matter if the Trinity was composed of any permutations and combinations of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit or the Mary or even Martin Luther King or Calvin or Pope. It would still be considered as associating partners with Allah. The above verse of the Qur'?n 4:171, For Allah is One God, is enough to refute any such bizarre argument. It is equally clear even in the Old Testament & The New Testament that the God is one God without any partners.

Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no savior." [Isaiah 43:10-11]

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD" [Deuteronomy 6:4]

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." [Mark 12:29-30]

The above verses speak of themselves.

W M Watt ponders in his book Muhammad At Medina:

One of the remarkable features of the relationship between Muslims and Christians is that neither Muhammad nor any of the Companions seems to have been aware of some of the fundamental Christian doctrines. Apart from the reference to the crucifixion (which is primarily a denial of Jewish claim), and the mention of the twelve apostles as the 'helpers' of Jesus, and of the miracles of healing and raising the dead, there is nothing in the Qur'?n about the adult life and teaching of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament. The early Muslims gave Jesus the title Messiah (Masih) but did not appreciate that it involved a claim to be 'God's anointed'. They did not understand the distinctive work of Jesus in redeeming the world and atoning for its sins. They did not realize that the Holy Spirit was regarded by Christians as the third person in the Godhead. It is indeed remarkable that there should have been among the Muslims over such a wide area this absence of knowledge of Christianity. The blame for this state of affairs probably rests on those Christians with whom Muhammad and his Companions were in contact, who may themselves have had little appreciation of the doctrines mentioned. Nevertheless the 'absence of knowledge' remains, and in the thirteen centuries since Muhammad's time few Muslims have done anything to fill the lacuna.[7]

It is amazing that even Orientalists like Watt cannot come out of the 'true' Trinitarian doctrine and think of the infamous Christian heresies which were in Arabia during the advent of Islam.

Finally, it is quite clear that the doctrine of Trinity evolved and took its final shape nearly 350 years of CE. But before that:

Christianity in the second and third centuries was in a remarkable state of flux. To be sure, at no point in its history has the religion constituted a monolith. But the diverse manifestations of its first three hundred years - whether in terms of social structures, religious practices, or ideologies - have never been replicated.

Nowhere is this seen more clearly than in the realm of theology. In the second and third centuries there were, of course, Christians who believed in only one God; others, however, claimed that there were two Gods; yet others subscribed to 30, or 365, or more. Some Christians accepted the Hebrew Scriptures as a revelation of the one true God, the sacred possession of all believers; others claimed that the scriptures had been inspired by an evil deity. Some Christians believed that God had created the world and was soon going to redeem it; others said that God neither had created the world nor had ever had any dealings with it. Some Christians believed that Christ was somehow both a man and God; others said that he was a man, but not God; others claimed that he was God but not a man; others insisted that he was a man who had been temporarily inhabited by God. Some Christians believed that Christ's death had brought about the salvation of the world; others claimed that his death had no bearing on salvation; yet others alleged that he had never even died.[8]

So, in conclusion, there is no point calling the modern day trinitarian Christianity as 'true' Christianity and all others as 'false' since the evolution of this doctrine itself is very late. The early Christianity had bizarre beliefs about their doctrine as well as their Scriptures. Moreover the Jesus(P) and early Church Fathers were utterly unaware of this doctrine and they never practiced it. Would then the modern day 'true' Christianity brand them as heretics?

Taken from http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/marytrin.html


Reference

[1] Rev. W. St. Clair Tisdall, The Original Sources Of The Qur'?n, 1905, Society For The Promotion Of Christian Knowledge, London, pp. 180-181.

[2] Ibid, p. 181.

[3] George Sale, The Koran, IX Edition of 1923, J B Lippincott Company, London, p. 25.

[4] Ibid, p. 81

[5] Edward Gibbon, The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire, 1994, Penguin Books, p. 177.

[6] Charles H H Wright & Charles Neil (Editors), A Protestant Dictionary, 1904, Hodder & Stoughton, London, p. 390 (Under Mary, The Virgin).

[7] W Montgomery Watt, Muhammad At Medina, Oxford At The Clarendon Press, 1956, p. 320.

[8] Bart D Ehrman, The Orthdox Corruption Of Scripture: The Effect Of Early Christological Controversies On The Text Of The New Testament, 1993, Oxford University Press, London & New York, p. 3.





________
Yamaha RD48 history (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Yamaha_RD48)

Netcurtains
21-05-2002, 14:32
Hi,
that is the web site I got my quote from.
My point is this - It is NOT mainstream Jewish thinking to think Ezra was the Son of God. EVEN THE WEB SITE YOU GAVE ACKNOWLEDGES THE SAME. The Qu'ran makes out (IMHO) that that it WAS MAINSTREAM JEWISH THINKING. This is also the case with Mary. It also makes out that Christians belief in three SEPERATE gods rather then 3 aspects of one god. I'm sure that Muslims understand the Qu'ran in a certain way that it makes sense to them (they would say the correct way) BUT I am free to interperate what it means as I am just an outside observer. If you want my honest opinion I'd say the Qu'ran is missing the word "SOME" - if it said "Some Jews believe this or Some Christians believe this" then it might make more sense. Some Christians for example do not believe in Trinty - eg some protestant churches think of the holy spirit as a force rather then an aspect of personality.

I guess the problem is it is part of the Qu'ran (inbuilt) that other religions are wrong and it particularly NAMES Christianity and Judasism. As a result of this it means Christians have to appear to "attack" the Qu'ran - but I guess this is more self defence then anything else - defending our belief from misrepresentation (although you are forced to say what you do by your own Holy Book).

Rasha
21-05-2002, 14:57
NetCurtains....

I read the Quranic verse, and I actually think I remember it in Arabic and it doesn't sound like the Quraan is saying it the main stream or not... it simply says... the Jews say this. Whether all or not this is not mentioned.

You cannot judge the quraan because you never read the arabic.... maybe the word "some" would be grammatically wrong... maybe something else would "imply" the "some". You cannot judge what words to be put where because Arabic is quite different from English. Keep that in mind.

I still do not see where the Quraan said that Christians believe Mary is God... it simply said that Jesus will be asked did u say this? He will say no. It implies that some Christians take jesus and Mary to be Gods.... well...what if in 10 years there become a new sect in christianity that does think Mary is a God.... you don't know. The Quraan again is not saying ALL CHRISTIANS say this...

"I guess the problem is it is part of the Qu'ran (inbuilt) that other religions are wrong and it particularly NAMES Christianity and Judasism."
The only reason Judaism and christianity are mentioned is that we do not consider any other religion as from God... only these three came from God and now they deviated. If you are talking about Hinduism and Buddism etc... we consider these Non believers. While the Christians and Jews are people of the book.

"defending our belief from misrepresentation"
I think its only you guys who misinterpret things.... I mean I talked with many christians who tried to explain to me what they think... and I'd say yes... they'd say.. this is not what the quraan says and i say yes it is!! you just do not understand things... u read what the non believers say about the Quraan and their attacks on islam and then you build your beliefs based on it. Have you read the Quraan, comments made by muslims??? Why not built ur belief about islam from there??!

The Quraan did not say the word ALL, and it didn't say any where that we think Christians worship Marry. It simply says Allah will ask Jesus, did you say to your people to worship me and my mother.. and Jesus will say no. End of the story. Where in here does it say christians worship marry???!!! Why is it always "insert" this word her and "imply" this there to make it look wrong!

Glory to Allah .... who has sent us the truth through Mohammad and in the Quraan.

Netcurtains
21-05-2002, 15:14
Hi,
as I said you will see it another way.
god bless.

servant_of_Allah
21-05-2002, 18:35
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-05-02 AT 06:06 PM (GMT)]Hello Netcurtains !

The Qur'an cannot be interpreted according to one's whims and desires. That is why the general masses of the Muslims ask the Muslim scholars to interpret the meaning of ayahs in the Qur'an.
That is why we Muslims keep telling the non Muslims, which includes you, not to interpret the Qur'an according to your whims and desires. If you do not understand something, then ask us. Do not interpret the Qur'an according to your desires. You are not free to interpret the Qur'an according to your desires.

?And the Jews say: ?Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah?s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!?


It is the truth that a group from amongst the Jews did indeed believe that Uzair was the son of Allah, Nauzobillah.

The Qur'an was revealed to Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in Arabia. The Jews in Arabia, of that time, did indeed believe that Uzair was the son of Allah, Nauzobillah. So, when Allah says : ?And the Jews say: ?Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah?s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!? , it is absolutely correct.
The Jews being mentioned here are the Jews of that region and time.


And, this is known to Muslims. That is why we keep telling you not to interpret the Qur'an according to your desires, but you refuse to listen, and reject the truth.

It is you who does not understand the Qur'an, and it is you who interprets the Qur'an according to his whims and desires, and it is you who does not understand linguistic rules. Glory be to Allah, the All-Perfect. His Message is perfect, free of errors. It is you who are imperfect, and therefore have the inability to understand.

However, it is tragic that not only do you not understand, but more importantly, refuse to understand. When you're given an explanation, you dispute with the ones who explain to you, and you reject the truth. How you will regret this on the Last Day, if you do not change your ways and do not accept Islam.

As for the Christian belief in the Trinity, it is indeed a belief in three gods. Christians refuse to accept this, but the truth is that it is a belief in three gods, Nauzobillah.

And, i think Netcurtains, that deep down in your heart, you know this. You may not accept this openly over here, but i think that in your heart, you know that the Christian belief in the Trinity, is a belief in three Gods, Nauzobillah Wastagfarullah.

Remember what you once said : "The Islamic faith holds that christians are polytheistic (as do jehovahs witnesses and a few other groups). Logically we are I suppose - The Holy Trinity - two men (dad and son) and one woman (spirit). So yes we are monotheistic-ish but in a polytheistic way."
So, i think that deep down in your heart, you know that what Muslims are saying IS correct.

May Allah forgive me for any mistakes that i may have made, or for any sins that i may have committed, whether done knowingly or unknowingly, Ameen.

Bye,
servant of Allah.

________
cheap easy vape vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/easy-vape)

Netcurtains
21-05-2002, 20:13
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-05-02 AT 07:50 PM (GMT)]Hi,
we agree to disagree.

set theory in Maths. A Jew believes Ezra is a son of God.
Think of all the permetations using some venn diagrams to help.


Netty.

Nzingha
21-05-2002, 20:58
>Thankyou for your story.
>I am amazed that any Christian can become a Muslim.
>But obviously you are proof that some can.
>I am stunned. Of course I know many muslims who become
>christians but you are the first that seems to have
>gone the other way. Although having said that (it was
>Penacost on sunday) it does appear from your story that
>you never accpeted Christianity to begin with>>>

What I am amazed at is that if a Muslim states they were christian before coming to Islam, the response is "you were never really a christian"

I come from a christian background as well not that I was christian though, my mother was definately a christian.. just sitting for a moment I can count 20 + people I know that were once Christians who came to Islam. If I gave it alot more thought I could come up with many many more.

Netcurtains
21-05-2002, 21:26
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-05-02 AT 08:41 PM (GMT)]It is to do with Pentacost. You are right of course.
There are many Christians who come to believe all sorts
of things. In fact the bible says that this happens - even
from DAY ONE (the seed falling on all sorts of soil).

Many people swap religions as a result of marriage. and why not?
One of my great grandmothers married a man from Ireland. She
loved him dearly. When he died she got really annoyed if any of us did not go to church. She used to sit at the back and cry whenever the choir sang an Irish song. She loved him dearly. I'm not sure what religion she had (if any) - she was darkish and had a surname of Abrams. I think she was a gypsie. She loved her husband. That was all that mattered to her. And why not?

servant_of_Allah
22-05-2002, 00:00
Hello Netcurtains !

You seem to be a "Mathematics fan", which i am certainly not.

Anyway, do you want permutations or combinations? Permutations usually require a specific order, whereas combinations do not.

Also, the Venn Diagram should be that of Mutually Excluse Events, or Exhaustive Events or what?

Bye,
servant of Allah.

________
SYNus (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_SYNus)

Nzingha
22-05-2002, 10:05
>
>Many people swap religions as a result of marriage. and why
>not? >>

wrong assumption Net, which is to think that Muslims become so due to marriage, especially women.

of those people i thought of none became muslim due to marriage, for marriage, or for a marriage partner. All came to Islam on their own. I know a few, not alot, of women who became muslim after their marriage. And I know some women who have retained their christian relgion while married to a Muslim.

Many assume that muslim women who converted became muslim due to a marriage.. not the case. For instance i became Muslim 12 years ago, I was muslim 6 years before I married. I didn't learn about this religion from a man, or anything related to a man.

JaLaaL
26-05-2002, 15:17
Hello Netty,

When I was studying at Highschool my christian religion teacher told me how important Mary was in Christianity. Many Christians direct their prayers to her, so that she can ask forgiveness for them.

I think this is the point on which the Qoran mentions about. And this is (IMHO) equal to idolatry, because Mary is considered as a medium between man and God. Ow and another importing thing you'll have to keep in your mind is that you have to understand the meaning of tawheed in islam. Otherwise you will keep complaining about that the case with Mary is not equal to idolatry.

(Btw. there are some sects in the islam which have some similar habits. I think the Sufi's. But this has nothing to do with islam. Islam is very clear about worshipping or asking forgiveness someone else beside Allah(swt) ).


Another point I'd like to deposit is that you have accused sister Lulua that she had in fact never accepted christianity !!

Well Curtains.....How do you prescribe a good christain ? -You are definatelly not a rolemodel of a typical christian. SO who gave you the right to speak about someone else while you are not even certain about your own faith and full with doubts (I can remember that you have said this earlier) ?




Explain this.

Netcurtains
26-05-2002, 16:18
You ask "describe a good christian"?
Jesus says "no one is good - no one at all".
I agree with him. We are all sinners
and unworthy of anything.

However if by what you mean by "good christian" is
what makes someone a "typical" christian the answer is
often connected to something/someone we call the
Holy Spirit - we come into contact with God - personally
(or so we believe). I can assure you I have had some
spiritual events in my life (of minor importance so I'll
not go into it). Some people call it "Born Again" - Dyionysis -
If you are interested in "born again" - put "born again" and
"Christian" as search parms in google - you'll come up with
loads of info. Again some people (especially in the States) become
very Muslim like in that they suddenly become interested in Learning
LATIN and looking up old dusty history books or listening to old
Gregorian Chants - apparently American Catholics have just had TWO MILLION extra baptisms this year. Amazing! Americans are becoming interested in LATIN!!!

JaLaaL
26-05-2002, 20:54
Next question Curtains:

I dont know whether you have children or not, but what would you do when someday you child comes to you and:

(Situation)

a) he/she asks you to tell him/her about islam what would you tell him/her ?

b) he/she tells you that he/she has converted to islam. What would your reaction to him/her ?


(It doesnt have to be necessarily your child maybe same situation to your wife, mother, father, brother etc. )




Ajuus !

Netcurtains
26-05-2002, 21:32
Hi,
very good questions.

I have three kids.

I am a bigot. I freely admit this. I am not a very nice person.
This being said I suspect I am not as bigoted as many other people.

I am a catholic.

If my kids became athiests i'd not be too happy but not up-set either.
If my kids became protestants I'd be very happy.
If my kids became catholic I'd be very happy.
If my kids became buddhist (as the preach non-violence) I'd have a similair view to them becoming athiest.

This is where my bigotry kicks in:
If my kids became muslim I would be concerned as I don't support violence in the legal sysem (I am against the death penalty, cutting limbs off or stoning people for adultary) and I am worried by aspects of Jihad (it sounds to similiar to crusade). I am against divorce and I am against multiple wifes so I would not be happy about that aspect. I am sorry I would be upset but I could deal with it - it is their choice.

On the positive side I would be happyish if they think God is one not trinity, if they gave up pork, if my girl wore a veil - all these things cause me no offence at all. I hope that helps.

Netcurtains
26-05-2002, 22:27
I should have said.
What would you do it you were a dad and your kids wanted to become Christian or Athiest or Buddhist etc?

JaLaaL
26-05-2002, 22:49
Same as what Noach did to his son and same as what Abraham did to his father.

Netcurtains
26-05-2002, 23:13
Sorry - I have not read the Qu'ran.

In the Bible Noah? (if that is who you mean) and Abraham did nothing to either their dads or sons (as far as I can see). Abraham's dad was called Terah and he took Abraham away from Ur to live in Canaan and then he died. Noah had three sons of which one appeared to possibly be a homosexual (possibly not - not very clearly written - nakedness and wine mentioned).
Can you tell me what YOU would do or not?

If you don't want to say just say "I don't want to say".

Netty.

JaLaaL
27-05-2002, 11:01
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-05-02 AT 10:11 AM (GMT)]Noach(P) and his son:

40. At length, behold! there came Our command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two, male and female, and your family - except those against whom the Word has already gone forth,- and the Believers." but only a few believed with him.

41. So he said: "Embark ye on the Ark, In the name of Allah, whether it move or be at rest! For my Lord is, be sure, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful!"

42. So the Ark sailed with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!"

43. The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the Command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy! "And the waves came between them, and the son was among those who were drowned.





Abraham(P) and his father:

114. And Abraham prayed for his father's forgiveness only because of a promise he had made to him. But when it became clear to him that he was an enemy to Allah, he dissociated himself from him: for Abraham was most tender-hearted, forbearing.

115. And Allah will not mislead a people after He hath guided them, until He makes clear to them as to what they should avoid, for Allah hath knowledge of all things.



From these ayat it becomes clear that forcing someone to believe is not allowed in islam. Also another aya in the Qoran is very clear about this:

2:256. Let there be no compulsion in religion...

But it is hardly imaginable that a healthy person who is muslim would become an apostate and turn into a christian, hindu etc. But let's say that "my son" becomes a christian (or whatever) than I would question him about his new belief, what the reason was why he left islam.

If I notice that he's really lost, then he his own way and me my own way. This doesnt include that he's not welcome anymore in my house.

Lulua
27-05-2002, 14:23
Hello, Netcurtains.

I have viewed and re-viewed this message several times, and have opted to refrain from responding until I have read all of the replies on this thread.

First off...where do you possibly get the nerve and the right to accuse me of not 'truly being a Christian'...as I have claimed that I once was? Is this merely because of your unability to accept that Christians can and do turn to other religions, and in particular Islam?

Or is it merely your bigotry against Islam and muslims showing through? **Please do note...that I am not resorting and lowering myself to name calling and shallow accusations as you have, netcurtains, but rather taking into quote your own admission, see reply #21 of this thread. You have made it QUITE evident by way of exact wording, and not inference, that your bigotry is towards Islam and muslims. And it is your own words this time...not our understandings from your way of speech..***.

Now...I first stated on my original posting of this thread...that I was making this post in part for your benefit, netcurtains...and now I am making some clarifications. For your benefit, if you choose to take it. If you choose to reject it as well, then that is your own problem. But let it remain clear that I am making such clarifications mainly and foremostly for those who will take heed from such examples, and benefit from them. As for you, I am in sincere question as to your sincerity at all at these forums.

You once asked me time and time again for my personal story, and now that I have revealed it, you accuse me of not truly being a Christian in the first place.

Perhaps you are not truly interested, yourself.

----------------------------------

As for my religious beliefs...I was once a Christian myself...as I previously stated. Not only from a family of devoted Christians, but a VERY devoted Christian myself. In fact, it was myself and my closest sister who were the most 'into' the Christian religion from amongst our family members. Although my parents were Christians themselves, they were never so active in the Church nor seeming so dedicated as my sister and myself. My eldest sister and brother, they were a little bit mysterious about their beliefs, even to this day. But as for myself and my one sister...we were always quite active and devoted.

In fact, it was my devotion to Christianity which in part led me to Islam. I always seemed to be searching for something more. But...through the years, not realizing that there was anything else to be had as far as religion goes, I never made that search a daily activity. But my heart was always searching and wondering...and asking questions that no one could answer. No one, that is, until I found the Quran.

And...it was the Quran in the end...which spoke to me in a way which no one could nor can. Even the translation of the meanings in English. Many muslims, from my time of first coming into contact with them, attempted time and time again, to convince me of Islam, to no success. In fact, they only served to drive me further from Islam. But it was the Quran which eventually drove me to accepting Islam.

That is why I always suggest to ppl to read the source of Islam...the Quran. For as I am a human, and regardless of how I may try to describe and explain Islam to others...I will enevitably make mistakes along the way, and even possibly drive ppl away from Islam, as I once was. But the Quran is something else entirely.

If you should decide to accept Islam or not...that is a personal preference which no one has any right to influence in any way.

But if you intend or wish to know the truth of Islam, then I strongly suggest that you attain for yourself a copy of the Quran...translated in the language that you find easiest to read. That way, and only that way, shall you find the truth of Islam. InshaAllah.

----------------------------------------

One more major and important note to netcurtains....


Never...I repeat...NEVER...accuse someone of this or that belief....but rather accept them for what they say about themselves. If they are lying, then their fate lies with God. And if they are telling the truth, then the same applies.

As I am sure that you would not like others to make accusations and assumptions about your own beliefs, and accusing them of something which is not true.

I personally have no reason to reveal to you of my inner beliefs and personal feelings...yet I had the need to clarify my own stance as relates to the accusations you have thrown about according to my beliefs-whether they be present or previous.

Just simple fact that such accusations of persons, their beliefs or their practices...is not nice. You need some strong lessons in good behaviour.

Lulua.

Netcurtains
27-05-2002, 20:14
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-05-02 AT 07:17 PM (GMT)]Hi,
You say the fault lies with me but I have reread your original letter three times now and it still reads the same eg:
1) Small child:
"
I can remember as a young girl asking questions in Sunday School and in Bible Study groups and such, questions which the answers given did not satisfy me, but efficiently kept me quiet for a time for the comfort of all concerned-my elders and myself. But my quiet was not a satisfaction from receiving explicable answers, but a silence of receding into acceptance of what was said merely for the fact of it being said, and my ignorance of the world in that I did not realize that there existed anything beyond Christianity. "

I'd say as a small child you did not accept the replies given to you. Either you received the incorrect teachings or you rejected them. These are your words not mine.

2)
your words as a slightly older child:
"
As a young girl, I began to ask questions of my elders in the Church, questions which no one could or would satisfactorily answer for me. When I noticed how in so many pictures depicting Mary or Jesus or the Apostles or other notary subjects of Christianity, the women dressed so modestly and even covering their heads, and asked admiringly of it, why do we not also follow suit, if we are followers of this Jesus? The answers that I got were replies like: ‘That was then, and this is now. Times have changed and fashions have changed’ or, laughing: ‘We are more modern and developed now. No need to wear that kind of coverings.’ These answers did not make sense to me, but I could sense and even see the surprise and even sometimes anger at my bringing up or noticing such things.
"

You again only talk of rejection.

3) Adult:
again you only talk about rejection:
"
As I grew older and entered into my teen years, I began to ask more serious and deep questions, questions which would have no answer other than the truth, and questions which no one who intended to remain tied to the church could answer. My questions began to delve into the very heart of modern day Christianity, the question of the trinity. I would ask things like: ‘If God is one, then how can there be a trinity?’ and: ‘If God is truly one, then how is it that we can worship Jesus?’ and many other such questions. The answers were always rather round-about, and non-explanatory, and demanding that this is the way that it is, and that I must accept, and I will not be saved unless and until I accept blindly, without logical explanation. So, out of fear of being lost, I accepted, but it was an acceptance without true belief or conviction. I did not realize that there even existed anything beyond Christianity, and so I devoted myself to this religion, even though I felt that there was much in question and truly much wrong with it. And although I was not satisfied with it completely, still I did not devote myself to a search for anything else, because mainly my knowledge of the world and what was in it was very limited, and I thought that what little I knew of world religions was all that there was to be known. I just assumed that I was missing some important link of this Christianity, and that someday it would eventually come to me.
"

You STRONGLY stated that you were NEVER HAPPY with Christianity - right from the time you were a small child. Come on give me a break.
lol.

Netty.

PS - I'm not saying committed Christians cannot become something else (the bible clearly says they can) - I'm saying you never said you were anything else apart from someone who felt Christianity was not 100% correct. A "born again" christian actually feels (for moments in time) that Christianity is 100% correct. You never gave me the impression that you had these moments. I apologise for your upsetness but I feel you seriously did not make yourself clear (if you were a "born again" christian).

Lulua
29-05-2002, 01:09
Hi, netcurtains.

Have you ever heard of the expression 'hindsight is better or wiser than foresight'??

When explaining my feelings and understandings and uncontentness with Christianity as a youth, it is with the hindsight of a more-enlightened and fulfilled person as a Muslim now. I have had more experiences, been priveleged to more knowledge and insight as a Muslim, which I was not as a Christian.

During those young and formative years, as I have explained in my original statement, I did not realize that there even existed anything beyond Christianity. I realized fully that there were other religions...but it was my full understanding and comprehension of those other religions...that they were merely extras, and not something truly beyond, as I have found Islam to be. By 'beyond' I mean encompassing Christianity, and it's teachings, and yet improving upon it to the extent that it is a necessity and a rationality of progression that one move on to Islam.

**Note...no intention upon trying to 'force' or 'coerce' you or anyone else into Islam...I still feel and realize that religion is a highly personal matter.

Now...back to the clarification of my standpoint:: As I said...sure, I was not totally satisfied with Christianity, and had many questions. Some were vocalized, and others I suppressed...mainly because of the terrible and stifling response I would get when I did ask questions.

But that did not prevent me from throwing myself full-force into Christianity while I was a Christian. I am well-familiar with the phrase 'born again'...and I was surely one of those. And I was truly a devoted Christian while I was a Christian. I was quite active in the church, and in youth groups, and quite often went to summer camps for Christians. In fact, I was not active in any other types of camps for the youth...none other than Christian camps. And I was a catalyst for many projects including preaching and propagation. It was even under this heading that I reached out to my own family members, expressing my concern for them when I would view them to be rather passive and not active as Christians.

Perhaps I should have made this clear to you to begin with. My fault for not having done so. I still do not feel it necessary to clarify myself to you or others...but perhaps this will help you to realize even slightly that a true Christian can and many do...enter into Islam.

And it is not a case of being 'wishy-washy' or easy to change minds or hearts...changing from one religion to another. But rather a transition from darkness into light, and a realization of the truth.

Perhaps some day you, too, netcurtains, will come to realize the truth, and the curtain of darkness shall be released from upon your eyes.

Lulua.

servant_of_Allah
03-10-2002, 11:00
Question (asked by a follower of the Jewish faith) :

Quran 9:30 says the following:

"The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, while the
Christians say the Messiah is the son of God."

It is well-known that normative Judaism, like Islam,
does not attribute any offspring to God and regards
such as blasphemous. I've heard of the explanation
that this verse may refer to a heterodox Arabian sect
of Jews, however it says "The Jews" along with "The
Christians," the use of the definite article implying
a generality, i.e. Christians (in general) say Jesus
is the Son of God (which we know is true) and Jews (in
general and in like fashion) say Ezra ('Uzayr) is the
Son of God (and this point I'm confused about). I'm
sure this question must have come up before and quite
early on in the composition of Tafsir, so what does it
have to say?


Answer (given by a scholar) :
Concerning ayah 30 of Surah at-Tawbah, one point must be clarified from the beginning. In English and European languages in general we use the definite or indefinite article to specify the general or particular significance of a certain sentence. One says "some X do Y" to mean that the action Y is related to a part of X, and we say "the X do Y" to mean that the action Y is related to all of X". In classical Arabic, however, the idea of particularity (or of conditionality) can be expressed by the verbal or syntactic construction, giving a particular or conditional meaning to some sentences in which the subject is nevertheless preceded by the determinative article. To show how relevant (and how different from European languages) the construction can be in classical Arabic, there even exist cases when even the word "kull" (whose ordinary meaning is "all/every") can precede a subject in a sense of simple prevalence, and not of totality.

Take the classical example is in the hadith "kullu `aynu zaniyyah". If one translates the sentence literally, he will say that the meaning is "every eye is incline to commit adultery". That translation is theoretically exact, but nevertheless betrays the real meaning, since the eye of a child who is not aware of sex is surely not adulterous, and so is the eye of a prophet. Classical grammarians say that this is a case of "`amm makhsus", i.e. a general form whose real meaning is nevertheless particular. If one wants to translate taking the intended meaning, and not at the letter, into consideration, he must not translate "every eye is incline to commit adultery", but rather "most of eyes are adulterous". Imam an-Nawawi deals into details about this theme of `amm makhsus in his commentary to Sahih Muslim. Were one on the contrary willing to mean "all the eyes/every eye", he would not say "kullu `aynu zaniyyah", but rather "al-`aynu kulluha zaniyyah."

In the same way, expressions like "wa qalati-l-Yahud..." and "wa qalati-n-Nasara..." in Surah at-Tawbah 30 have a general form implying a particular meaning, i.e. meaning "some of the Jews say..."and "some of the Nazarenes say...". Were one willing to express in lughat al-fushah the concept "all the Jews say...", or "all the Nazarenes say...", he would use a syntactic construction which is not particularized in meaning, by saying "innama-l-Yahud qalu..." and "innama an-Nasara qalu...". Since in English the form of `amm makhsus does not exist, translating "the Jews say..", "the Nazarenes say..." although literally correct, gives the wrong impression that the Qur'an attributes to all the Jews the belief in the "Divine sonship of Ezra" and to all the Christians the belief in the "Divine sonship of Jesus", which is far from the Qur'anic truth and also far from historical knowledge.

On the contrary, we know that the first doctrine was typical of a small Jewish school in Arabia, while the second doctrine was typical of those Christian schools which afterwards became prevalent. Even so, there existed Jewish schools which never believed in the "Divine sonship of Ezra" (and historically the represent the majority of Judaism), and there also existed Christian schools which never believed in the "Divine sonship of Jesus", and although they represent a small minority within contemporary Christianity, they still exist until today.

Wassalamu Alaykum,
servant of Allah.
________
extreme vaporizer (http://extremevaporizer.net/)

amlhabibi2000
09-04-2005, 22:10
Welcome to Islam Lulua!

Your story is inspires maybe one day I will write my story, Inshallah.

May Allah be ever at your side sister.

May Allah bless all that you do.

May you never have a sorrow without someone to comfort you.

Asalam Aliakoam

Anne Marie

Lulua
10-04-2005, 10:56
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day.

Thanku for the kind words, Anne.

May Allah also guide you and be with you.

And protect you from all harm.

Lulua.

amlhabibi2000
10-04-2005, 18:03
Massallah

Thank you Lulua

The journey is challenging may Allah guide us well.

Thank you

Anne Marie