View Full Version : Martyr operations
Assalamu Alaykum to all the Muslims !
I know that on the Jihaad Web_BBS, this topic was discussed between sister Lulua and Brother Sadiq.
Sister Lulua holds the view that suicide bombings are haraam in Islam. Brother Sadiq holds the view that they are not suicide bombings, but martyr operations, and they are allowed.
I will state my view, i too, like brother Sadiq, believe that they are not suicide bombings, but martyr operations, and are allowed. And Allah knows best.
However, we all know that the Muslim scholars are divided on this issue, as sister Lulua had stated on the following thread:
http://www.aliasoft.com/htdocs/DCForumID12/27.html
"Yet...on the other hand there are just as many, if not more, fatawas by many respected scholars prohibiting and disclaiming such missions as not only wrong, but haram. " is what sister Lulua mentioned.
The truth of the matter is that, yes indeed, the Muslim scholars are divided on the issue. However, sister Lulua's message seems to suggest that the scholars who say that martyr operations are haraam, are equal in number to those who say it is halaal, if not more.
The truth is that the majority of Muslim scholars are of the opinion that martyr operations are halaal. It is only a minority which state that martyr operations are haraam.
One of the most well-known scholars who said that it is haraam is the present Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia. There are many more scholars who have stated a similar fatwaa, though i am unaware of their names.
Some of the most well-known scholars who said it is halaal include:
Shaikh Yousuf al Qaradawi, the Mufti of Qatar.
Shaykh Tantawi, the Grant Mufti of Al Azhar,
The Grand Mufti of Syria.
Mufti Ibrahim Desai.
However, amongst the scholars who say that martyr operations are allowed, there is a division of opinion.
One section of these scholars say that the targets should be military ones. Civilians should not be intentionally targetted. The intention should be to attack the military personnel only, and not civilians. If, however, civilians are killed in this attempt to attack the military target(s), then it will be collateral damage. The intention, however, should be to attack military targets only, no civilians. As, we know that Islam does not allow killing of innocent civilians. And Allah knows best.
To this school of thought, belongs the Grand Mufti of Al Azhar, Shaykh Tantawi.
As far as i am aware, and Allah knows best, Shaykh Tantawi is not against martyr operations against military targets, but civilian targets are not allowed to be attacked, according to him.
On the other hand, there is the school of thought, which believes that martyr operations can target both civlians and military personnel. You may read their reasoning on this issue over here:
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=46143
Egypt's Mufti Nasr Farid Wassel holds the same view, and Allah knows best.
Mufti Ibrahim Desai, holds the following view:
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=4480
Kuwait's top religious authority, Khaled al-Madhkur also holds the same view as Shaykh Qaradawi, and others.
I have always held the view that civilians cannot be targetted, as this is what i was taught when i was younger. And Allah knows best.
Nevertheless, i am of the opinion that 'suicide bombings' (the more correct term being martyr operations) are allowed. And Allah knows best.
Sister Lulua has said that she likes to refer to the history of Islam in making a decision on this matter. And the sister has quoted for us some examples in her post:
http://www.aliasoft.com/htdocs/DCForumID12/27.html
And on the same thread, in the end, brother Sadiq gave a response, quoting the opinion of some of the most well-respected and well-known scholars of the past, on this issue.
With regards to history, dear sister, we have the example of those Muslims who attacked Spain. Though i can't remember the name of the commander of that Muslim army (it began with a T, i think the name was Tariq).
Anyway, this Muslim army landed on Spain, reaching the coast of Spain using boats. When the Muslim army landed there, they saw that the army of the enemies was much more than their own, and, if i am correct, then much better equipped and prepared for the battle than themselves.
When the commander saw this, he ordered that the boats, on which they arrived, be burnt. He did this, because he did not want a single soldier of his army to escape, because he feared that they may end up doing this, looking at the strength of the army ahead.
He addressed his men, saying that they have only 2 options with them. They will either win the battle, or they will become Shaheed (martyrs). There was no option of escaping.
The Muslim army won the battle, with the help of Allah.
So you see dear sister, i have quoted an example from history for you, which does support the viewpoint which i hold.
You might say that none of them blew themselves up. First of all, there were no bombs then, to the best of my knowledge, to do such a thing. So, the opponents of our viewpoint, should not ask such questions in the first place.
Nevertheless, even if they didn't blow themselves up, they did not have a chance to escape, and save their lives, as their boats had been burnt. They didn't know whether they would win the battle or lose it. All they knew was that either they would win, with Allah's help, or they would become martyrs. And Allah knows best.
And as Mufti Ibrahim Desai says on this topic:
"This is similar to a person returning from the defeated army who bravely
approaches the enemy and is killed. Although there is a difference between
the two, in that, the former is killed by the enemy and the latter kills
himself but the person killed by the enemy virtually killed himself by
confronting his enemy in such a defenceless situation - thus allowed to be
killed."
Taken from :
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=306
And, i think what Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya, whom the Saudi Grand Mufti claims to follow, said should also be considered:
Ibn Taymiyyah says, in Majmu` al-Fatawa (28/540),
"Muslim has narrated in his Sahih the story of the people of the trenches, in which the boy ordered his own killing for the benefit of the religion, and hence the four imams have allowed a Muslim to immerse himself in the enemy ranks, even if he is reasonably certain that they will kill him, provided there is benefit in that for the Muslims. "
What Shaykh Ibn Abideen, one of the most well-known and respected Hanafi scholars, said was:
Ibn `Abideen says in his Hashiyah (4/303), "There is no objection to a man fighting alone, even if he thinks he will be killed, provided he achieves something such as killing, wounding or defeating , for this has been reported from a number of the Sahabah in the presence of the Messenger of Allah on the Day of Uhud, and he praised them for it. If, however, he knows he will not inflict any loss on them, it is not permissible for him to attack, for it would not contribute to the strengthening of the religion."
I do hope, dear sister Lulua, you change you point of view on this. Even if you don't, i hope you have understood our point of view better.
I would appreciate it, if other Muslims also gave their opinions on this issue.
Wassalam,
Asif.
Salam to all!!
Mashallah!
Brother gathering all the info together...but it would've been better if this post was posted somewhere else...as this is a place where 'new' muslims would come...this would make them more confused...but mashallah...carry on with your work..
I will 'add' more on our side...not saying to attack anyone or to show rudeness on my part.
This article should help people and my dear sister to understand the issue. This is for those who are in between the issue too.
Lets carry on..
.....................
In The Name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful
Are Fidayee Attacks Lawful (According to Quran and Sunnah)?
All Praise and All Thanks are for Allah (SWT) to whom we shall all return to be judged on The Last Day.
We praise Him and ask Him for help and forgiveness; and ask His protection from the mischief of our souls and the bad results of our deeds; whomsoever Allah guides, none can misguide; and whom He declares misguided, none can guide to the right path; and I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah: He is Alone, without partner. And I bear witness that Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is the Messenger and Servant of Allah (SWT)
What Are Fidayee Attacks?
Fidayee attacks are those where a Muslim - a Mujahid - attacks the enemy in such a way that the death of that Muslim is (should Allah (SWT) so will it) highly likely. These attacks are often called "martyrdom operations". The history of Islam is replete with heroes who have sacrificed their own life for the Way of Life which is Al-Islam.
In modern times, many Fidayee attacks involve the Mujahid detonating an explosive device (attached to themselves or in a vehicle they are driving) when close to, or among, the enemy. This was the case recently in Afghanistan when a Muslima, Umm Hafsah, killed two American soldiers while en route to Kabul.
Such attacks are often incorrectly called "suicide attacks" in the hope of discrediting them. In addition, some Muslims, and some Islamic scholars, have claimed that such "suicide attacks" are forbidden according to the Quran and Sunnah.
Are Martyrdom Operations Lawful?
To understand and answer this question, three things need to be understood:
(1) The criteria used to determine whether such operations are lawful and justified must and can only an Islamic one. That is, the judgement must be made according to Quran and Sunnah, and them alone. All other criteria or standards of judgement must be rejected. To do otherwise, is un-Islamic.
"And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn." [5:44 Interpretation of meaning]
(2) The intentions of the Mujahid who undertakes the attack is important, as is the fact that their is a likelihood of the attack harming or killing enemies.
(3) In a discussion of Islamic sources - Quran and Ahadith - it is important to refer to the meaning of the Arabic, and not to rely on interpretations of meaning which use modern, and often biased, terms and words such as the English word "suicide".
The Unlawful Nature of Killing Oneself:
There is no dispute, among scholars or among the Muslims, that it is forbidden for a person to take their own life, for personal reasons. That is, because one is overwhelmed with grief, or sorrow, or has abandoned all hope when faced with difficulties.
There are many Hadith and Quranic verses which make it clear that the Muslim who does such a deed will not enter Paradise because such a deed involves the abandonment of Islam: the belief that one should never totally despair; never be totally overwhelmed with misery, and never abandon trust in Allah (SWT).
The Islamic Judgement:
Those - Muslim and non-Muslim - who declare martyrdom operations unlawful, and un-Islamic, consider them to be acts of what they call "suicide", and justify such a declaration by quoting Quranic verses and Hadith which refer to a person killing themselves.
Quite often, those who denounce martyrdom operations use translations of Hadith, or interpretations of the Holy Quran which use the word "suicide". For instance, Ahadith similar to the following are often cited:
The Prophet (saw) said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire." (Sahih Bukhari)
However, as mentioned above, the use of English words such as "suicide" in such translations is often incorrect, for such modern English words often mean and imply different things than are meant and implied by the Arabic, even though, in the West, the term "suicide" is sometimes understood as an "act, malicious or otherwise, of self-murder". That is, as a basically selfish act done for personal reasons. (In origin the word suicide itself
derives from a term for "self".)
One Quranic verse which which is often cited by those who oppose Fidayee attacks is: laa taqtuluu anfusakum (4:29). This is often interpreted as meaning: "Do not kill yourselves..." However, considered in context, are more correct interpretation would be along the following lines:
"You who believe: do not unfairly squander your wealth on one another, save it be for some purpose mutually agreed upon among yourselves. Do not ruin yourself, or one another, for Allah is most Merciful toward you."
Thus, not only are the oft-quoted Ahadith and Quranic verses quoted, and translated or interpreted, incorrectly and out of context, but they are in fact not relevant. For what it is important to understand is that killing oneself because of some personal reason - what is often called committing suicide - is quite different and distinct from martyrdom operations.
The person who commits suicide acts out of despair, or for some personal reason, whereas the Mujahid acts out of love for Allah (SWT) and a desire to please Allah (SWT): to do what Allah (SWT) has commanded, which in the specific instance of martyrdom operations is confronting and attacking the enemies of Islam, even if this means one's own death.
The intention of the Mujahid is - or rather should be - a pure intention, and if this indeed the case then Allah (SWT) may well accept their martyrdom and so admit them into Paradise. A pure intention in this instance is to: (1) harm or kill the enemy; (2) to give strength and encouragement to Muslims; (3) to weaken the resolve of the enemy; (4) to seek the reward of martyrdom, which is Paradise.
It was narrated by Abu Baker Bin Abi Musa, who said: I heard Abu Huraira saying while facing the enemies: "the prophet (s.a.w.) said: 'The doors of Heaven are opened through Jihad'. A poor man asked: 'you heard the prophet (s.a.w.) saying that?' Abu Huraira said: 'yes'. The man went to his companions, and saying: peace be upon you, broke the sheath of his sword and fought to death". [Muslim]
As Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali wrote in Ahya-ul-Uloom ud Din:
There is no dispute that it is permissible for a single Muslim to launch an attack on a whole battalion of the enemy and fight with them even though he may be certain of his death in the attempt.
Many other scholars - such as Ibn Taimiyyah, Ibn Khuwaiz Mindad and Al-Qurtubi - have sanctioned those who, alone, take on the enemy even though they know they might die.
Furthermore, and of especial importance, is that the Mujahid who undertakes a Fidayee attack puts their trust entirely in Allah (SWT), for such attacks are not - as opponents of Fidayee attacks assume - guaranteed to result in the death of that Mujahid. That is, their death is not certain: they may be captured before the attack; they may be injured; their device may fail for one reason or another. The Mujahid is relying on Allah (SWT) alone because the Mujahid accepts that only Allah (SWT) can know when and where their own death occur, just as only Allah (SWT) will decide on how a person will die, and when. The intention of the Mujahid is to harm the enemies of Islam, to obey Allah's commands and so seek Paradise. Thus, the intentions of the Mujahid are pure, unselfish, and Muslim.
Conclusion:
Despite the attempts to discredit Fidayee attacks by the modernists, by those who seek to pacify and tame Islam, and by those who ally themselves with the infields, it is clear that martyrdom operations are justified and lawful, according to Islam.
"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allaah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (Shaitaan). So fight against the friends and allies of Shaitaan. " [ An-Nisa' 75 - 76.
Interpretation of Meaning.]
Allah (SWT) knows best.
......................
Salam to all!
I hope the article above helped members here.
As brother asif said, there are many opinions and differences with the issue of martyrdom operations around the world. I would like to say that, sometimes the thing might seem, bad or not correct in our eyes, but if we try and find the answer to those things, it only bring success to you and make it clear.
This issue of operations…., I have received this from many scholars, that ….it has been debated and debated, and scholars have agreed upon it, as halal. Now scholars have said and I WILL also state, that the conditions have to be met when embarking on the mission.
Below is something very interesting, it should, I think be ASKED before analysing this issue. Read on and find out!!…Remember scholars are those who guide us, the space with so many stars, who or what is the telescope to make us see the stars with the right line?….so scholars are there to help us.. and I will (personally) resort to classical scholars or scholars of the past…for they have explained the deen and they know more of it then we know it noW!!!!!
……………………
Firstly : If you did not know, could you not ask? It is not appropriate for someone who is unaware of a verdict to make sweeping statements accusing others of wrongdoing. If those who criticized us had only investigated the issue first, they would have found that the issue is, at worst, a disagreed issue among scholars, such that we cannot be criticized for following legitimate scholarship.
Secondly : We request our respected brothers, who seek the truth, not to criticize us for anything without backing the criticism with verdicts of scholars, and [especially] the understanding of the Pious Predecessors.
Thirdly : Dear brothers and sisters! Not every martyrdom operation is legitimate, nor is every martyrdom operation prohibited. Rather, the verdict differs based on factors such as the enemy's condition, the situation of the war, the potential martyr's personal circumstances, and the elements of the operation itself. Thus, one may not give a verdict on such operations without having an understanding of the actual situation, and this is obtained from the Mujahideen, and not the unbelievers. How, then, can you accuse us of ignorance when you are unaware of our situation, let alone the specific details of the operation in question?
…………………………
Sadiq! And take note of the hanafi scholar who many ulama agree upon.
Salam to all!
This article with explanation and the required verses have been used to explain the issue of suicide in Islam. Now…..i hope after reading this, members will have a ‘clear’ view of what is suicide and what is the martyrdom operations.
Definition of Suicide
Suicide here refers to killing oneself on account of anger, pain or some other worldly motive, and scholars are unanimous that it is prohibited and moreover a major sin, making the offender deserving of Hell - either eternally if he legitimizes the act, or for a finite duration [if he did not legitimize it and died as a Muslim]. "Do not kill yourselves. Verily, Allah is merciful to you. And, whoever does that, out of animosity and , We shall burn him in a Fire. And that is easy for Allah." [Qur'an, 4:29-30]
"Among those before you, there was a man with a wound, and he was in anguish, so he took a knife and cut his hands, and the blood did not stop until he died. Allah said, "My servant has hastened the ending of his life, so I have prohibited Heaven to him." [Bukhari and Muslim]
"Whoever strangles himself will be strangling himself in the Fire, and whoever stabs himself will be stabbing himself in the Fire." [Bukhari and Muslim]
The authentic ahadith on this subject are many. In fact, we have been ordered not to even wish for death.
"Let not any of you wish for death on account of harm which has befallen him. But, if he must, he should pray, 'O Allah! Keep me alive as long as life is better for me, and take my life when death is better for me." [Bukhari and Muslim]
All of these texts prohibiting suicide related to killing oneself for worldly motives such as pain or anguish or lack of patience, and not for raising aloft the Word of Allah. It has been proven for a Mujahid to plunge into the enemy ranks without armour, and these exempt the Mujahid from the generality of the suicide texts.
Can one then say that one who kills himself in order to lift the Word of Allah - to inflict losses on the enemy, to frighten them, and with a sincere intention - can we describe him as one committing suicide? That is a grave slander. We say that the prohibition of suicide is on account of its resulting from weakness or lack of faith, whereas the Mujahid in a martyrdom operation is killing himself on account of the strength of his faith.
The boy in the account of the Trenches referred to in Surah al-Buruj effectively killed himself for such a reason, and his deed was praiseworthy. Similarly, the Prophet wished for death in the Path of Allah not once but thrice [the hadith was cited at the start of the article], and it was permissible because it was not on account of harm which had befallen him, but rather it emanated from strong faith.
So, when the rationale of the prohibition of suicide becomes clear, one arrives at the conclusion that martyrdom operations are permissible and praiseworthy when undertaken for some religious benefit.
……………………………
Again I post these words “…killing oneself for worldly motives…..” so those seeking worldly motives are the people who are in the wrong. The aim (operation) is to kill the enemy and to seek martyrdom, to encourage other fellow muslims too. So there is a BIG difference between suicide (as explained above) and martyrdom operations…. and if someone can explain them better…then please do…for everyone here (incl ME) want truth and nothing but the truth!!!
They are allowed BUT with conditions, simple!.
Sadiq!
Some more info I found…to help those who think, such an act is deemed as suicide. I will only use examples and explanation given by scholars regarding incidents of the past.
Read on..
…………………….
Ibn Abi Shaybah has narrated in his Musannaf (5/338) that Mu`adh ibn `Afra' asked the Messenger of Allah, "What makes Allah laugh upon His slave?" The reply: "[The servant] immersing himself into the enemy without armour." Mu`adh then took off his armour and fought until he was killed.
>This hadith is a clear evidence for the virtue of Jihad operations in which it is most likely that one will die, and it indicates that Jihad has some special rules which permit what may normally be prohibited.
………………………..
Muslim has narrated from Abu Hurayrah, "Among the best of lives for people is a man who clasps the reins of his horse in the path of Allah, rushing on its back; whenever he hears a cry [of battle] or advancement towards the enemy, he hurries to it, seeking death and being slain with eagerness."
>This indicates that seeking to be killed and pursuing martyrdom are legitimate and praiseworthy acts
…………………………….
Abu Dawud (3/27) and Tirmidhi (4/280) have narrated (and Tirmidhi graded it as sahih) that Aslam ibn `Imran narrated that when they were fighting a mighty army of the Romans, a man in the Muslim army attacked the Roman ranks until he penetrated them. People shouted, saying, "SubhanAllah! He has contributed to his own destruction." Thereupon, Abu Ayyub al-Ansari stood up, and said, "O people! You give this interpretation to this verse, whereas it was revealed concerning us, the Ansar, when Allah had given honour to Islam and its supporters had become many, whereupon some of us secretly said to one another … "Our wealth has been depleted, and Allah has given honour to Islam and its supporters have become many, so let us stay amidst our wealth and make up what has been depleted of it." Thereupon, Allah revealed to His Prophet [meaning] "And spend in the Path of Allah, and do not contribute to your own destruction" [Qur'an, 2:195] refuting what we had said. So, the destruction lay in staying with our wealth and repleting it, and abandoning combat." Abu Ayyub remained fixed until he [was killed and] was buried in Rome.
Al-Hakim authenticated it, saying it conforms to the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim, and Dhahabi corroborated him. Nasa'i and Ibn Hibban also narrated it. Bayhaqi included it, and other narrations in his Sunan in a chapter entitled, "Permissibility of a man or men fighting alone in the enemy land," thereby citing it as evidence for the permissibility of advancing against a group, even if the more likely result is that they will kill him.
>In this hadith, Abu Ayyub explained that the verse (Qur'an, 2:195) does not apply to one who plunges into the enemy ranks alone, even though it may seem to people that he is destroying himself. The Sahabah tacitly confirmed this explanation of his [by not objecting].
…………………………….
>This is one example used by a large number of scholars to prove such act is allowed.
In the hadith in Sahih Muslim, containing the account of the boy and the king in the story of the Trenches referred to by Surah al-Buruj, we find that the unbelieving king tried various means to kill the believing boy, failing each time. Eventually, the boy told him, "You will not be able to kill me until … you gather people on one plateau, hang me on a palm-trunk, take an arrow from my quiver, place it in the bow, say, "In the name of Allah, the Lord of the boy," and shoot me." The king did this, and thereby managed to kill the boy as predicted, but the people who had gathered began saying, "We believe in Allah, the Lord of the boy!" Thereupon, the king ordered trenches to be dug, and fires lit in them, and then for the people to be made to jump into them if they refused to give up their faith. This was done, and eventually a woman was brought with her infant, and she hesitated to jump on account of him, but he said, "O mother! Remain steadfast for you are upon the truth."
>The boy, in this hadith, ordered the king to kill him in the interest of the religion, and this indicates that such a deed is legitimate, and not considered suicide.
………………………..
These are some more info regarding the ‘plunging’ of a person to hurt and to kill the enemies. If suicide is something that is done for worldly motives, weak faith, lose of hope and despair…and it has been explained, then what do you call this act? Were the history has shown its examples, the verses have proven it and number of hadiths have ‘cleared’ the issue.
If I have any more input, then I will post, but I hope members here understand the issue, by FIRST understanding the issue of SUCIDE in Islam….and then…look into this issue (operations)…AND it will make it very clear for any ‘seeker’ of truth.!!
Sadiq!
Ibn `Abideen says in his Hashiyah (4/303), "There is no objection to a man fighting alone, even if he thinks he will be killed, provided he achieves something such as killing, wounding or defeating [the enemy], for this has been reported from a number of the Sahabah in the presence of the Messenger of Allah on the Day of Uhud, and he praised them for it. If, however, he knows he will not inflict any loss on them, it is not permissible for him to attack, for it would not contribute to the strengthening of the religion."
This should clear it!^^
I haven't read all the posts.... but i think that they are martyrdom operations... these people are not sick of life... they are standing up for oppression!!!
Assalaamu alaikum.
Before I continue reading what is here to be read, let me clarify a few points.
1. In my posting at the JWBBS on this topic, although perhaps I did refer to these operations as 'suicide missions', still I am in an agreement that they perhaps should better be termed as 'martyrdom missions'. Also, there is grave question as to their validity in Islam. Period.
2. In the reference in Br. Sadiq's mention that the prophet(SAAW) three times, not once, wished for death...it was not that he wished for death actually (because that can be refuted by other hadiths in which he direly advised all never to wish for death)...but that in the concerned hadith, he was mentioning that he wished for martyrdom. There is a difference, in wishing for martyrdom, and wishing for death. In this very hadith, by his wish for martyrdom, and then wishing to be given life again only in order to die in martyrdom and then so on and so on...he was demonstrating the great level of reward upon the martyrs. Not the great level of reward or pleasure in death itself. In fact, he most avidly advised against wishing for death, because 1-death is something of determintation to God, and nothing of dealing with our own free wishes and 2-we cannot know if perhaps if given a bit longer life perhaps we can do more to help ourselves in our future lives. Therefore, the advisability against wishing for death.
Let me also mention that no matter what you call it, killing one's self is just that...killing one's self. Suicide. There is no other way about it.
There are many instances of references pointing against it, including hadiths in which a companion who was wounded took his own life in his hands. His companions complimented him, claiming that he achieved reward of heaven, in that he died from the wounds of the battle. The prophet(SAAW) stoutly refuted their claim, telling them that he was impatient, and had inflicted upon himself a final wound, which expediated his death, and therefore would be committed to hell. Allah knows best. This is only one example of the dire seriousness of this topic in question.
As well, we are dealing here with a situation in Palestine and Israel in which civilians and innocents and children are wounded and killed by those who commit such acts. Are they to be counted among the valid fighters? Who knows? The dire question of it raises many doubts. I have always been under the impression and understanding that in situations of doubt, it is better to avoid that which is in question, rather than involving ones' self in something potentially haram. Particularly when dealing with one's own death.
Let me also mention and remind of the dire situation that the prophet(SAAW) and his companions found themselves in before the migration to Madinah. They were tortured, oppressed, and humiliated in every way imaginable and unimaginable. What the Palestinians have been going thru for half a century is surely torture and oppression and humiliation...but barely comparable to that which the prophet(SAAW) and his companions faced. There is no...repeat NO accounting of any of them attempting to take their lives...whether in reason of escape from such torture, or for reason of retaliation against those oppressors. Can you not imagine that perhaps the means were available to them at some time or another? But yet they did not resort to such methods. Then...why should we today either personally resort to such methods or even encourage others by our admission of permissability of such measures?
There was, around 10 days ago, a situation in Palestine, in which one lone Palestinian gun man somehow got hold of an old model rifle or machine gun, and took to a hill-top, and let loose of fire upon Israeli soldiers at a check-point. This is quite different. When he finished, he threw down his weapon, and escaped from the scene.
Can you imagine why there was not public rage at this endeavor and accomplishment? Because it is logical and legitimate type of fighting. It is facing the enemy with the same measures as they take, and it is going into the battle with the full possibility of being killed, yet not the guarantee of self-destruction as in the current methods of the martyrdom missions, or suicide missions, whatever you wish to call them. There is a great difference here. And this is what differentiates between validity and questionability.
May Allah lead us to that which is best.
Lulua.
Salam to all!
Quite busy now, can't reply to each point, but i will only post this fatwa to enlighten all, as it is from the scholars...
Martyrdom operations are legitimate
"The martyrdom operations executed by Mujahideen against the Zionist enemy are legitimate operations based on the Book of Allah and the Sunna of His prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and they are the highest form of martyrdom and a path to Allah's satisfaction and paradise. Mujahideen opting to martyrdom based on creed and belief chose that path with absolute awareness and free will. Such operations are one of the most important strategic weapons of resistance that enabled it to defeat the enemy morally and impose a new equation in the light of the existing unbalanced material forces."
From the Closing statement issued by the Muslim Ulama, following their Conference in Beirut during 25-26 Shawwal 1422 AH
So i hope this helps! Maybe i know the issue or not, but the scholars have dicussed this and this is the outcome. I stand by the scholars!
Sadiq!
Assalaamu alaikum.
If you will recall the history of so many of these martyr operations, you will notice that so many of the targets were civilians, in the middle of civilian areas. I.e. not designated military or government sites. That is a main point which raises the question of the validity of such operations, as well as the point that one going into such a situation is defiantly taking his/her own life into his own hands. Literally.
The past two days have witnessed two very different incidents, in which bombers (apparently martyr operations) set out upon military targets this time. One inside Jenin, amongst the Israeli incursion into their city, and the second a bus in Haifa, which was carrying mostly Israeli military personnel. These are extremely excellent targets, and are the kind of operations that do not raise such questions of validity.
May Allah help those who are struggling, and strengthen them in their fight, for His cause.
Lulua.
Sadiq,
Being a Westerner and not of the Islamic faith, I may be asking "stupid" questions .... but here goes.
From the preceeding posts, I think I'm hearing a discussion about whether a Muslim is commiting martyrdom when the taking of his/her own life involves non-combatants. My question is directed to the issue of whether the conflict is a religious or political struggle.
Is what's happening at present between Israel and the Palestinian people a conflict between political entities, or religious ideologies? Are all Palestinians, Muslims? Are all Israelies, Jews? Is Judiasm attacking Islam, or is it a matter of a group of people united by a territory and political system against another group of people united by a different territory and political system? Doesn't it make some difference with regard to martyrdom, whether the conflict is religious or political in nature?
Does a Palestinian who deliberately destroys him/herself and others in a crowd of non-combatants automatically deserve to be called a "martyr" for God's cause? It seems to me that is what is being suggested by your scholars. What's to say that the intent isn't revenge for the death of a loved one, or zealous political patriotism? And who but God knows what's in the heart of the bomber?
I'm not attempting to takes sides .... I have empathy for both, and compassion for all the innocent victims. I can also understand desperate measures in the face of superior weaponry; but my question is focused on the Palestinian who straps bombs to his/her person and attempts to take non-combatants lives with their own. How can anyone be certain that God or Mohammed would approve? And if there is any doubt, how can the badge of "martyr" be pinned on the person?
I'm not at all sure how the situation in Israel is viewed by Muslims who seriously study their faith, and I would be interested in your or anyone else's comments.
Joe...
I think the situation in palestine is viewed differently by different people. For instance.... few weeks ago i met a group of Palestinians at school... they spoke passionately about palestine - but only as their land.
To many non palestinian muslims and almost all palestinians... palestine is the place where prophet mohammad was taken to and then raised to the sky to recieve his first command to start the prayers 5 times a day. The Masjid Al Aqsa is the place where ALL prophets prayed... its the third holy site in islam.
So it is more islamic than simply "our land".
Now speaking as a palestinian muslim... seriously it means more islamic things to me than just a land... but also as a muslim we hate and stand up for oppression. Muslims do not put their head to the ground and watch their enemy mock them. We die with dignity better than living a life of oppression.
And thus the situation became not only islamic, but also a part of defending our humanity and dignity.
The Israeli's are a political group.... they claim to be jews.. many jews do not like what is going on.... the Israeli's however I believe is more political group. They know if Muslims were to unite.... they won't have as much power... so they must keep them weak. They want to distroy al masjid al aqsa to build the solomon temple or whatever they want to build.... we won't let people distroy a place which to us means A LOT.
Martyrdom depends on the intention.... are u sick of life and just want to leave? This is suicide and Islam doesn't allow it. Are you trying to show off that u are brave? Again this is nto allowed. Are you trying to fight the best available way??? Then with God's permission it will be Martyrdom.
just my two cents
I haven't read the thread completely. However, i would like to give a short response to Joe.
Dear Joe,
In Islam, the killing of innocent civilians is not permitted.And Allah knows best.
Bye,
Asif.
>Sadiq,
Hi joe, I am very happy to see you reading up on the issues at the different forums at IWC!
>Being a Westerner and not of the Islamic faith, I may be >asking "stupid" questions .... but here goes.
Questions are never regarded as stupid to me, whether small or big, it is a question and it means you are not sure about a certain issue, so then you ask, as every human does…as a wise saying goes, who is afraid to ask, is afraid to learn…quite true…wouldn’t you say?!
>From the preceeding posts, I think I'm hearing a discussion about >whether a Muslim is commiting martyrdom when the taking of his/her >own life involves non-combatants. My question is directed to the >issue of whether the conflict is a religious or political struggle.
I ll see if I can help, for we are on a same boat, learning answers to the wholes in the boat..!
>Is what's happening at present between Israel and the Palestinian >people a conflict between political entities, or religious >ideologies?
Technically it is religious ideologies…but there are certain groups within both sides that are ‘fighting’ for political reasons, for land, for nationalism and others fighting for religion (which also includes the 3rd Holy mosque)…
>Are all Palestinians, Muslims?
Yes!
>Are all Israelies, Jews?
Yes!
>Is Judaism attacking Islam,
This is not entirely true, for not all Jews agree with the occupation of Israeli tanks on Palestine lands. There are some Jews who don’t even agree with the aspect of a ‘Israeli’ state..for they in exile for not obeying the rules of God, almighty….so Judaism is not attacking Islam….
>or is it a matter of a group of people united by a territory and >political system against another group of people united by a >different territory and political system?
This is not completely true, both sides have been fighting each other…within the sides are small groups who want to achieve something different to the other groups within the side….the case now is that, both sides want to eradicate each other, so basically its not just about territory…or a political system….it more about the temple and mosque…!
>Doesn't it make some difference with regard to martyrdom, whether >the conflict is religious or political in nature?
Yes, for martyrdom operations are carried out ‘for the sake of allah’, meaning for religion. That is why, many people have said, the Palestine’s are losing the battle, is resulting from fighting for the wrong reasons….so it makes a difference…!
>Does a Palestinian who deliberately destroys him/herself and others >in a crowd of non-combatants automatically deserve to be called >a "martyr" for God's cause?
Now this issue has been addressed…and as brother asif said, who’s comment I and most muslims will agree with…so the aim of the martyrdom operation is solely to defeat the enemy and to attack the enemy, and to be an enemy, you have to be the opposite of ‘non-combatants’…so this is true…they don’t deserve to be called a martyr!!!
But there are some ulama (scholars) who hold the view, that if the Israeli people are regarded as ‘reserved’ soldiers who have undergone military training and have the capabilities and the weapons, who will and can be called upon by the Israeli gov…they come to the conclusion that there is no distinction between the reserved solider and the solider with the uniform…so to there eyes they are soldiers and they can do the same as normal soldiers with uniform…
That is why, some scholars have said…they are allowed to carry out such missions…towards the uniformed soldiers or the reserved solider (i.e. being the Israeli citizens)
Joe, this is one issue, still being discussed….
Basically!… A martyrdom operation will not be accepted if it is carried out towards non combats, but there is an exception with regards to the issue of Palestine…to some scholars, not all! I hope this is understood…!
>It seems to me that is what is being suggested by your scholars. >What's to say that the intent isn't revenge for the death of a >loved one, or zealous political patriotism? And who but God knows >what's in the heart of the bomber?
This is true, the intention of the person carrying out such acts have to be considered and as there is one story about the heart....there was a sahaba (a companion of the prophet) who at the battle caught an enemy, and about to strike him…the enemy individual said to the sahaba, I believe in allah and the muhmmad as the last messenger..he declared his faith…but the sahabi, considered the kalimah (declaration of faith) of that certain individual under his sword assumed the person said it to save himself from death…and he stoke the person.
After hearing this incident and the blessed prophet, subhnallah a wonderful story…ill carry on…after hearing this story of what happened, the dear prophet said, ‘what will you do when his kalimah will come on the day of judgement?’, he repeated this 3 times to the companion who stroke that person.
The blessed prophet then said, so clearly and eloquently ‘ have you seen his heart, can you show me what was in his heart, whether he said it for just of saving himself or he submitted himself to allah , have you seen his heart,?’…to the nearest meaning…
Such a beautiful example the prophet showed his fellow companions and to those who follow him. You cannot see what the person is thinking or has recorded in their hearts.!
So those who embark upon such missions…should have a clear intention, doing it for the sake of allah…for if I pray to please my mother, will I get the reward? NO, for I have done an act with the intention to please my mother and allah…what about such an act of martyrdom? ….that is why intention is one aspect which needs to be conquered by each muslim. The missions have to be done with the correct intentions and allah knows best.
>I'm not attempting to takes sides .... I have empathy for both, and >compassion for all the innocent victims.
That is nice to hear!. Just to hear the word innocent…it should be protected. For we muslims are the people of justice…history has proved it, the future…yet unknown.
>I can also understand desperate measures in the face of superior >weaponry; but my question is focused on the Palestinian who straps >bombs to his/her person and attempts to take non-combatants lives >with their own.
Again I have addressed this issue before (above)! There is no question that a person who is performing martyrdom operations, it will ‘not’ be accepted if it is carried out towards non combatants…simple..! I hope you understand this.
The other side of the coin is that, there is a exception with the current situation of Palestine/Israel, for they are all soldiers…whether reserved or normal soldiers with tanks…both are the same and can and will do the same damage when in action.
Islam does not allow, killing of non combatants. It is only allowed to those who are the enemy and those who are ‘fighting’ you, so to ‘some’, remember this, some scholars have said, the enemy is Palestine/Israeli are the same whether on a tank or those who are called reserved soldiers.
>How can anyone be certain that God or Mohammed would approve? And if >there is any doubt, how can the badge of "martyr" be pinned on the >person?
The conditions have been addressed by the respected scholars of the past and present to embark upon martyrdom operations. If the conditions are met, then will be accepted in the sight of allah! I would you like you research it more, if you are interested, and get in touch with scholars, both sides of the issue.
>I'm not at all sure how the situation in Israel is viewed by Muslims >who seriously study their faith, and I would be interested in your >or anyone else's comments.
I hope I have helped in some way, little of what I know. The thing is Joe, as you are a person who by your words, have proven a person who has an open mind…I would suggest you to study the issue properly and look at both sides….and weight it on your mind with the respected evidence which you gather…and then the result will be clear and be happy with it.
This issue is still being discussed by scholars.
>Joe Marcheski
If you have any more questions, then ask, and I or the other knowledgeable brothers/sisters will be able to help…!
Sadiq!
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-04-02 AT 06:14 AM (GMT)]Sadiq,
Thank you for the thorough reply; I appreciate hearing things from your perspective, that is, one who seems to be informed and knowledgeable with regard to Islam. To me, the bottom line is that no one can be certain what is in the heart of the bomber except God, and therefore the label of "martyr" or "murderer" is merely a human judgement which may in fact contribute to further misunderstanding.
>Are all Palestinians, Muslims? ... Yes!<
I'm a bit surprised at this! Many in the world think that all US citizens are Christian, which is certainly not the case, and I had expected that not all people who identify themselves as Palestinians would profess to be Muslims. Would you mind expanding on this issue for me? What causes you to be so certain that all Palestinians are Muslims?
Of course the whole reason I'm pursuing this line of questioning is to be clear about the "martyr" issue. To my way of thinking, if Islam is being attacked I can understand how one can think in terms of martyrdom, but if the nation of Israel is at war with the Palestinian Authority, that is another matter. I suppose I have the notion that many Palestinians are fighting simply to claim or reclaim property without regard to a religious defense.
>... some scholars have said…they are allowed to carry out such missions…towards the uniformed soldiers or the reserved solider (i.e. being the Israeli citizens) <
My problem here is with the notion that *all* citizens are the enemy. One will never know how many Muslims were killed in the destruction of the Twin Towers in New York by their Muslim brothers, and it was just that kind of thinking that sent the airplanes into the buildings (all Americans are the enemy). It doesn't seem just or logical to include all people simply because the combatants cannot be clearly identified. This has been a problem in all wars and has never been properly solved by military experts, and it certainly doesn't seem like the religious scholars are doing much better. Scholarly judgement will not convince me that killing a pacificist just because you think he might be a reserve soldier is God's will.
>... there is a exception with the current situation of Palestine/Israel, for they are all soldiers…<
Do I understand you to be saying that *all* Israelies are "soldiers"?
Salam to all!
>Sadiq,
Good afternoon/morning/evening >Joe!
>Thank you for the thorough reply; I appreciate hearing
>things from your perspective, that is, one who seems to be
>informed and knowledgeable with regard to Islam.
Your welcome, and i am really happy to see and hear from different people from different countries...and knowledge..is something that i am running too...please do race with me...(lol)..
>To me, the
>bottom line is that no one can be certain what is in the
>heart of the bomber except God, and therefore the label of
>"martyr" or "murderer" is merely a human judgement which may
>in fact contribute to further misunderstanding.
You said to you! Fine...but there are certain conditions or called qualifications, needed to be a doctor, you cannot be a half doctor! Can you?
There are conditions needed to be regarded as a doctor or even a scientist..would'nt you say?...So there are condtions which have to be met..when embarking upon such missions...and as you said...intention is one thing God knows..
As one scholar told me, how do you 'check' or see someones iman,(meaning belief, high or low..etc)..you can observe the persons belief in allah and the last day by 'thier' actions.
From this we learn, if someone is performing good deeds..and we can see it, that would mean he has 'high'..so to say iman. The person who does not perform deeds, or is lacking in prayer or any other duty..will prove the person is lacking in iman.
Intention is one thing, and the action is what shows or reveals some of what the intention.
>>Are all Palestinians, Muslims? ... Yes!<
>
>I'm a bit surprised at this! Many in the world think that
>all US citizens are Christian, which is certainly not the
>case, and I had expected that not all people who identify
>themselves as Palestinians would profess to be Muslims.
>Would you mind expanding on this issue for me? What causes
>you to be so certain that all Palestinians are Muslims?
I answered your question in general sense, for there are a large amount of the population who are muslims. The US issue is different as, the land is a christian land, so 'some' result in labeling all the citizens as christians as you have said.
Maybe that is the case in palestine, who knows?..but from my knowledge, which is very small and research...most are muslims. Maybe wrong...if you have any links or info, please do provide it, i will be very thankful.
>Of course the whole reason I'm pursuing this line of
>questioning is to be clear about the "martyr" issue.
Nothing wrong with that!
>To my
>way of thinking, if Islam is being attacked I can understand
>how one can think in terms of martyrdom, but if the nation
>of Israel is at war with the Palestinian Authority, that is
>another matter. I suppose I have the notion that many
>Palestinians are fighting simply to claim or reclaim
>property without regard to a religious defense.
Again i stress, if the palestinian authority are muslims, then as a muslim who lives in china or who lives in india, they are equal muslims and if they are at 'war'..then it will result in a 'war against islam'. Whether it be the isreali nation or anyother nation.
Muslims make islam, so if the muslims are being attacked, it is the duty of them to fight back, and if the neseccary people/numbers cannot be met, the next country (i.e. muslim) is obliged to provide men/weapons...and this duty is carried on from east to the west until the muslims can help there fellow muslims and recapture lands or property which they own.
As one maulana the otherday said; ' if the azan has been called at that country or land, it will be fought if there are any 'opressors' or nations who try to take it over..'
>>... some scholars have said…they are allowed to carry out such missions…towards the uniformed soldiers or the reserved solider (i.e. being the Israeli citizens) <
>
>My problem here is with the notion that *all* citizens are
>the enemy.
I am still researching this issue for myself. I hope you do. There are certain condtions put by islam, so we are not allowed to kill or harm monks, women and most importantly innocent civilians.
>One will never know how many Muslims were killed
>in the destruction of the Twin Towers in New York by their
>Muslim brothers,
Again..joe not to get into a long debate or discussion about the incident at Sept11th. Was it really 'muslims', as you have said, who destroyed the building..? As certain info about the 'hijackers' has been found, quite a long back, as to say, 'some' of them were alive, in the middle east..and the usa said they were on the plane..who carried out such attacks..so the evidence is something that we 'both' need.
>and it was just that kind of thinking that
>sent the airplanes into the buildings (all Americans are the
>enemy).
I dont know what was the reason behind the attack, whether it was 'muslims' or a inside job. People are 'still' trying to find the invisible evidence. The 'americans' enemy slogan cannot be used here, for they are innocent civilians..and they have not got the training or the means to be regarded as soliders.
The act..was wrong..whether it was muslims or not. It is not part of our religion and any other religion. Simple.
>It doesn't seem just or logical to include all
>people simply because the combatants cannot be clearly
>identified. This has been a problem in all wars and has
>never been properly solved by military experts, and it
>certainly doesn't seem like the religious scholars are doing
>much better. Scholarly judgement will not convince me that
>killing a pacificist just because you think he might be a
>reserve soldier is God's will.
Again...this is being discussed. If the person is a non combatant, then in no explanation or scholar can say the opeartion has been successful or allowed. Islam does not allow killing of innocent civilians, simple.
The issue is here, about the reserved solider or solider, are they not the same?...one who is always a solider doing his job..the other..who can and will be called upon.
And as you have 'past' wars have shown how the instruction to attack a certain country..does damage or harm the wrong people..and sometimes resulting in killing the innocent.
>>... there is a exception with the current situation of Palestine/Israel, for they are all soldiers…<
>
>Do I understand you to be saying that *all* Israelies are
>"soldiers"?
Those who have said this, mean, they have been training and have the cabilities to 'do' the same as a normal solider. Both are the same and they have the methods to kill as soliders, that is why they are regarded as reserved soliders, they can and will be called to action...so to some...they are soliders who...will fight..
Joe, please to remember i am not stating my opinon, i am saying few statements from various sources..
But i will with utmost respect to you and to all members, repeat
Islam does not allow innocent civilians to be attacked.
Allah knows best.
>
I hope this has helped..and i am a bit busy with work and house work...it is one thing that the dear prophet did and encouraged too..so please do read all the articles on IWC and learn about this 'way of life'..which is present to you..!
Sadiq
Asif,
Thanks for your input. I would expect that to be the case.
Sadiq,
Again I'd like to thank you for taking the time to provide such a detailed reply.
>please do race with me<
I'd love to .... but I'm just now getting my shoes on :).
>Intention is one thing, and the action is what shows or reveals some of what the intention.<
Many times, it seems to me, we only have one or a few actions from which to make judgements and they can lead to wrong conclusions about intention. My concern is the impression made upon non-Muslim people when they hear that a bomber who has killed innocent civilians is given the label of "martyr" by representatives of Islam. Since no one can really know the heart of that person, it seems a bit irresponsible to immediately judge the bomber as being a martyr just because they blew themselves to pieces. This, in my opinion, makes Islam look like it approves of such actions, no matter what was in the heart of the person. From my inquiries here, I realize that many Muslims do not approve of this kind of action; however, it seems that some do, or cannot bring themselves to voice disapproval. Suicide of this kind is, in my opinion, an action that does not lend itself to an immediate judgement.
>The US issue is different as, the land is a christian land...<
I would like to (lol) if it would not be offensive .... I do not wish to make you feel foolish as this is also the notion of some citizens here. The US is far from being a Christian land; in fact, we have laws that prevent this from ever happening. If you were a Christian in the US, you might feel that the nation is in many ways anti-Christian.
>if you have any links or info, please do provide it<
No, I do not have data which shows the number of non-Muslim to Muslim in Palestine. I was just assuming that there would be some, and was surprised that you said *all* were Muslim. It made me wonder if it was a requirement of citizenship to be Muslim, but then I'm not sure what it takes to be labeled "Palestinian".
>... if the palestinian authority are muslims<
This is really at the heart of my inquiry. I am having a difficult time separating religion from state. As I mentioned earlier, as a US citizen I have a separation of church and state. When this country is attacked or declares war, I do not consider my faith as being under attack .... it is my nation ... people of all faiths united under a secular government ....this is what requires military action. My faith dictates my personal response, but it is not the object of defense. And this, at least to me, seems to be different with Muslims. It sounds like church and state are the same. An offense to the state is an offense to the religion. Of course, at this point in my study of Islam, I could be wrong, and if so would appreciate correction.
>... not to get into a long debate or discussion about the incident at Sept11th<
I also do not wish to discuss this as an issue here, however it might be instructive to us both if we exchanged impressions and individual knowledge of the event through email. If you have the time and inclination to do so, please feel free to email me and we can discuss it.
>... i am not stating my opinon, i am saying few statements from various sources.. <
I appreciate that information. It's helpful to know if I am hearing a personal opinion or merely getting reference material. My main interest is in knowing what "ordinary" Muslims think, but at the same time I would like to know what the "official" doctrine states. As in all religions, it seems to me, there are often difference between the two.
>I hope this has helped<
It certainly has! Again, my thanks.
>i am a bit busy with work and house work<
Glad to hear it! Hope I have not caused interference .... family first, then inquiring Christians :).
Salam to all
>Sadiq,
Joe i will give a small response, for the shortage of time...alot of work..u know how it is..!!
>Again I'd like to thank you for taking the time to provide
>such a detailed reply.
No problem, now i will give a short response...be happy.
>>please do race with me<
>
>I'd love to .... but I'm just now getting my shoes on :).
What kind of trainers are they? that is the question!
>>Intention is one thing, and the action is what shows or reveals some of what the intention.<
>
>Many times, it seems to me, we only have one or a few
>actions from which to make judgements and they can lead to
>wrong conclusions about intention. My concern is the
>impression made upon non-Muslim people when they hear that a
>bomber who has killed innocent civilians is given the label
>of "martyr" by representatives of Islam.
Again i stress, if the person who is doing such a mission, if the result is killing innocent people, then they cannot be labelled marytr. Simple. Just remember that and you'll be safe.
>Since no one can
>really know the heart of that person, it seems a bit
>irresponsible to immediately judge the bomber as being a
>martyr just because they blew themselves to pieces.
If the conditions are met..then they have fufiled the mission and they are martyr's. The example i can think of now is, salat, now the person praying salat, he is praying..meeting the condtions and postures to be regarded as a 'salat'. And the intention is one thing the person knows and allah knows. So i dont think, it is 'irresponsible' but the intention is something that the person who is doing 'whatever' the act, knows! But we judge or witness the person performing salat..as performing...with the requirements.
A person praying with the correct..prayer words...movements..will be known as praying to us, wouldnt he?,,but the intention is something different..but for us...what we see and know...the person is praying salat...similar to the opeartion...there are conditions and if they are met...then it will only be accepted..resulting in being a marytr.
>This, in
>my opinion, makes Islam look like it approves of such
>actions, no matter what was in the heart of the person. From
>my inquiries here, I realize that many Muslims do not
>approve of this kind of action; however, it seems that some
>do, or cannot bring themselves to voice disapproval. Suicide
>of this kind is, in my opinion, an action that does not lend
>itself to an immediate judgement.
You have your opinon and i have mine...nothing wrong with that. But remember, suicide is something and martyr opeartions is something else. Quite different.
>>The US issue is different as, the land is a christian land...<
>
>I would like to (lol) if it would not be offensive .... I do
>not wish to make you feel foolish as this is also the notion
>of some citizens here. The US is far from being a Christian
>land; in fact, we have laws that prevent this from ever
>happening. If you were a Christian in the US, you might feel
>that the nation is in many ways anti-Christian.
Thankyou for that. Yes, the 'freemasons', i dont know if you have heard of them...they are 'trying' to take over usa...so i was wrong...a lot to learn.!
>>if you have any links or info, please do provide it<
>
>No, I do not have data which shows the number of non-Muslim
>to Muslim in Palestine. I was just assuming that there would
>be some, and was surprised that you said *all* were Muslim.
>It made me wonder if it was a requirement of citizenship to
>be Muslim, but then I'm not sure what it takes to be labeled
>"Palestinian".
I ll try and get some info on this..
>>... if the palestinian authority are muslims<
>
>This is really at the heart of my inquiry. I am having a
>difficult time separating religion from state. As I
>mentioned earlier, as a US citizen I have a separation of
>church and state. When this country is attacked or declares
>war, I do not consider my faith as being under attack ....
>it is my nation ... people of all faiths united under a
>secular government ....this is what requires military
>action. My faith dictates my personal response, but it is
>not the object of defense. And this, at least to me, seems
>to be different with Muslims. It sounds like church and
>state are the same. An offense to the state is an offense to
>the religion. Of course, at this point in my study of Islam,
>I could be wrong, and if so would appreciate correction.
You have said it. As one saying of the prophet is that...one drop of a muslim blood is more precious than the kaaba and the whole area around it.
So if a muslim is attacked, it is a duty to all to defend them.
>>... not to get into a long debate or discussion about the incident at Sept11th<
>
>I also do not wish to discuss this as an issue here, however
>it might be instructive to us both if we exchanged
>impressions and individual knowledge of the event through
>email. If you have the time and inclination to do so, please
>feel free to email me and we can discuss it.
I might take you on that offer..but basically..alot of work down my 'yard' as they say it in harlem...maybe in the near future..!
>>... i am not stating my opinon, i am saying few statements from various sources.. <
>
>I appreciate that information. It's helpful to know if I am
>hearing a personal opinion or merely getting reference
>material. My main interest is in knowing what "ordinary"
>Muslims think, but at the same time I would like to know
>what the "official" doctrine states.
Very good for any one..!
>As in all religions, it
>seems to me, there are often difference between the two.
>
>>I hope this has helped<
>
>It certainly has! Again, my thanks.
>
>>i am a bit busy with work and house work<
>
>Glad to hear it! Hope I have not caused interference ....
>family first, then inquiring Christians :).
Not that true...but family with a little brother, does sometimes..cause trouble..or is it called ..growing 'love' between the family.
I am always helping people 'when' i can..and i hope you read up on islam..and as brother asif has said..take note of that..and the conditions which i have pasted on this thread..please do take note of that too.
See you soon...busy with work..maybe next time..but dont forget to tie your laces..before you run..!
Sadiq
Sadiq,
>suicide is something and martyr opeartions is something else. Quite different.<
Exactly .... but I'm not sure how you define "suicide"? My dictionary says, "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself." And for martyr it says, "One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles."
Anyone who intentionally kills themselves, for whatever reason, has committed suicide. I have always thought of a martyr as one who dies at the hand of others, not his own; although I would conceed the term to one who deliberately puts himself in harms way for the defense of his faith.
You used the term "martyr mission", and I assume it to mean that the person is sent, or sends himself, on a mission of destruction, including his own. Is this not suicide? No matter what the intent, or whether innocent lives are spared or taken, the self destruction qualifies for the term "suicide", does it not?
I suppose the bottom line for me regarding these bombers is ... they can all be immediately labeled "suicide", but not "marytr" until the intent is known, and that cannot be determined by other than God. The best anyone can do is "presume" the intent.
Again, my only concern is the impression given by immediately labeling them "marytr", is one of approval.
>if the person who is doing such a mission, if the result is killing innocent people, then they cannot be labelled marytr<
I just wish I could hear this more from Islamic representatives in our news reports. What is your impression of this message from what you hear? Do you think those who speak for Islam convey this message to the Western or Israeli world?
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Greetings and good day.
If I may, I would like to add my 'two cents' to all this here.
Let me first reflect a bit and remember the points touched upon.
1. Although the majority of Palestinians are muslims, there is a population of indigenous Palestinians who are not muslims, most of those being Christians. Even if you do not have any personal contact with Palestinians to know that, and if you do not have access to census records, the mere existence of churches in Palestine is evident of that. Churches in which people, mainly Palestinians, attend for worship. Muslims will not build and maintain churches.
2. Although the majority of Israelis are Jews, there is still a populace of Israel which are not Jews. Vancouver at this site is witness of that...that there is a populace of Jehovah's Witnesses (a division of Christianity) who are citizens of Israel. As well, a frequently mentioned term describing a section of the Israeli population in the media services is 'Israeli Arab' which indicates Palestinians who perhaps did not move out of the invaded areas which Israel claimed throughout it's various invasions and wars in Palestine, and who chose to remain under the rule of the new governing Israelis, and they are not as yet received into the mainstream of the Israeli populace to be known simply as 'Israelis', but rather the identifying name-tag of 'Israeli Arab' is applied to them to indicate their Palestinian origin, and therefore their affinity to either Islam or Christianity, and not Judaism.
3. Martyrs and their missions: I still remain on my original stance of questioning it's validity to Islam, because of the air of questionability because of it's definition of suicide. There is a great difference between going into a battle field equipped to the hilt for fighting, and expecting to perhaps be killed by the enemy (and very well possibly so)...and on the other hand taking matters into your own hands and pulling the trigger on yourself, even if the intention is to inflict danger or harm on the enemy.
I have fair support from valid fatawas from religious scholars. I will post that later in another thread, inshaAllah.
That said, I would like to also clarify my stance on these missions:
I understand full well that the desperate situation of the Palestinians has forced them into this terrible corner in which many see the only way out or the only way to eventual freedom for their country-brethren is this road. And I fully understand that for the most part, they are probably intending only that...martyrdom for the sake of fighting oppression, which Allah has commanded and advised us to do. And it is because of this belief, that I truly pray for their acceptance as martyrs...but still question the validity of such. I do not necessarily hold it against them, but on the other hand...I would not be one to advise ppl to take this route. I believe that there are other and better methods. And this begins with turning to Allah in prayer for guidance and deliverance. I am sure that the Palestinians have done so...not necessarily questioning that. But as well...I am talking about their supporters around the world...who have to this date done nothing solid to help them. As well, to have our prayers for such help and deliverance from Allah accepted, we need to first of all answer to His call: i.e. follow His commands and abide by His guidance. Therefore, a great responsibility for the plight of our brethren lies with the rest of us...in that we, the muslim populace of the world...are weak in our iman and either 1. not asking enough of Allah, 2. -not having full faith that He will answer, being impatient to wait for the result, and 3. not following the guidance set for us in the Quran of commandments and directives.
This is a topic touched upon recently by a 'khateeb' (imam and preacher) in a mosque in Dubai...'Ali Jaffrey'. He was reminding and warning and reproaching the whole muslim community for their share in the responsibility for the carnage and torment that our Palestinian brethren are continuously suffering at the hands of the Israelis, in that we have slipped greatly in our responsibilities to Allah, and therefore the ummah as a whole is being punished. The Palestinians are the ones living the torment daily and nightly, and the rest of the ummah are the ones having to witness it. We need to take more faith in the dua of the prayers, remember to concentrate on the dua at the time and position of the sujood, for it is the closest position that we have to Allah, and have faith truly that in the proper time Allah will respond and deliver them from their torment. As we are reassured in the Quran, surely help will come. Do not be impatient and ask 'when?'.
Lulua.
Joe!
Now suicide is when you kill yourself for worldly motives, taking your life for loss of money or work or anything to the similar line..
Now martyrdom operations are those were muslims who embark upon missions knowing they might become shaheed (martyr) and they are pursing a path to encourage others and to defeat or cause harm to the enemy.
Those scholar who explain theses operations use the example of the sahabahs. Were they went into the middle of the army or war or the enemy ranks, who knew they will die and they pursed with the intention to kill as many as they can. After being defeated or not, they faced the enemy army, with knowing that they will die for their efforts, but that was not termed as suicide yet approved by the prophet.
Now many might say, that they are ‘taking their lives’, but this is not the case, if one looks at the history . and an act which the prophet praised and did not provoke. As one who faces the enemy knows very well they will die or as it goes ‘running’ to death. But this is not suicide as many might view it .
Now to this present situation.
The people who go into such missions are going into enemy ranks (not innocent civilians) with the intention to be shaheed and to cause damage to the other side. The issue which many raise is about ‘strapping’ yourself. Now the odds against them is one aspect..the other thing is about the actual incident.
The sahabahs (companions of the prophet) knew they will die, as the jumping with their swords or their weaponry into enemy ranks for they surely knew their result will be death. They knew that and no one regarded that as suicide, and their aim was to encourage others and to cause damage to the enemy.
Similar to the Palestine’s, the mission is called a martyrdom operation, meaning the mission with all its other conditions and outcomes to be reached, one of them is martyrdom.
So the people will be shaheed with the fulfilment of conditions set by the scholars, which I have stated and posted earler.
Now the above incident with the sahabahs, is not suicide or termed as it, they ( may allah be pleased with them) knew they will die and they were prepared for it for the benefit of the muslim community in large. Similar to the issue here, not exactly the conditions of ‘desert ring’ or equal number of machinery,… but the mission is to seek martyrdom and to defeat or cause harm to the other side. From the missions which many have and are witnessing, the aim is being fulfilled and the target are being located. The other question is about the reserved solider or not, and that is another issue..!
I hope this helps..i think there is a fatwa (Islamic ruling) posted on the jihad forum..about this, a large number of fatwas.
Maybe I am wrong with this may be I a correct, may allah accept my efforts and make me find the truth with the help from the ulama. Ameen.!
Sadiq!
Salam to all!
"..Therefore, a great responsibility for the plight of our brethren lies with the rest of us...in that we, the muslim populace of the world...are weak in our iman and either 1. not asking enough of Allah, 2. -not having full faith that He will answer, being impatient to wait for the result, and 3. not following the guidance set for us in the Quran of commandments and directives...."
Very true sis! A problem...which needs to be resolved!!
vBulletin® v3.6.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.