View Full Version : The Human Mind
Netcurtains
21-04-2002, 13:53
There are many theories about our brains but one of them
is Freudian.
Not sure what religion (if any) he had but he said the Human Brain was Trinitarian:
http://peace.saumag.edu/faculty/Kardas/Courses/GPWeiten/C12Personality/EgoIDSuper.html
I think Skinner (the other extreme of thinking) might be a witness for the other side (perhaps).
Does the way our brains are "wired" reflect the way we will see God?
Many Christians (especially Catholics) think becoming Christian is very similiar to madness - to having a nervous breakdown.
What are your views?
Salam to all!
Netty, as usual, discovering the world, nothing wrong with that..i thought about the human mind issue,..this article below might help..i think...quite old, i had it on my HD, so read and learn..
.................
The Commonality of the Human Condition
Sadek J. Sulaiman
Thank you Shaikh Taha for inviting me to participate in the summer series of lectures of the Graduate School of Islamic and Social Studies. I am also thankful to Alhewar Center and Ustaz Sobhi Ghandour for kindly co-hosting this event.
My presentation is about the Commonality of the Human Condition Versus the Diversity of Human Thought. It is adapted from an article I wrote recently in Arabic, entitled The Law of Change in the Human Condition. This presentation is of a general style; it skips over a lot of pertinent detail. However, in the discussion to follow, we may come back to focus on any particular areas of interest. At that point it will be your individual choice to interact in English or in Arabic. I shall gladly respond in kind.
Let me begin with the diversity of human thought. In the annals of human intellection over the past four millennia of recorded history, different social groups have given rise to different perspectives on the world and man’s place in the world, as a result of different ways of perceiving reality. Where the perspectives are religious, they derive from metaphysical insights. Where the perspectives are philosophical, they ensue from critical thought. Among religious traditions, theology, dogma, doctrines, and ritual vary considerably. Among philosophical systems notions about the universe and man vary no less.
Let us look at the religious setting first. Almost all early human thought is presented in religious context. Every major religion offers notions primarily about God, the Universe, Man, and Man’s destiny beyond this life. But their versions of reality vary. For example, in the traditions of Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam, the three major faiths of all time, we find remarkable divergence on the concept of divinity and man’s relationship with the divine. We also find marked differences in their perceptions of the universe and man’s station within it.
In Hinduism divinity is depicted in a multiplicity of semi-autonomous deities emanating from a single God. In Christianity, divinity is a coalescence of the godhead, the human intellect, and the nexus called the Holy Ghost. In Islam, the divine is absolute, ultimate, and transcendent. “There is nothing whatever like unto Him,” says the Qur’an in a categorical rejection of any and all anthropomorphic images. Divine transcendence, to be sure, is acknowledged in all three faiths; however, only in Islam is it conceived as absolutely unbridgeable.
In Hinduism, the universe, uncreated, has always been there, and man is not freed from his earthly confines before he has progressed far enough to ascend to a higher plane of existence; hence he goes through numerous rebirths until he finally washes away his bad karma and qualifies to move up. In Christianity, the universe was created, and the advent of man was stained with an original sin from which only by faith in Jesus Christ can man seek salvation. In Islam, too, the universe was created, but it was not an original sin but an act of disobedience that landed man on earth – an act for which man was forgiven, but told henceforth to make his own decisions. He would be saved by faith and good deeds alone. Beyond that, divine mercy may redeem anyone.
In their eschatological conceptions, both Christianity and Islam subscribe to the doctrine of a coming judgment, a resurrection of the dead, and everlasting rewards in heaven or punishments in hell. But their versions of those cataclysmic events do not coincide. On an entirely different track, Hinduism speaks of neither heaven nor hell, nor for that matter of purgatory, the interregnum Christianity and Islam posit between death and resurrection.
A general distinction of note between the religions of the Far East and those of the “Peoples of the Book” is that in the former nature is paramount and man is asked to abide by her dictates; in the latter, God is supreme, and man is encouraged to explore and exploit nature for his needs. Noting this distinction, Philosophy Professor Huston Smith of M.I.T. observes that it is no accident that modern science first jumped to life in the Western world. Preceding that, I might add, science thrived in the Muslim world; there, too, it was prompted by the Qur’an’s call to man to investigate nature and make good use of her resources.
Notice also the inter-faith variance in ritual and tradition. In Islam and Christianity cremation of a human corpse is sacrilegious, and only burial is proper, for the soul may need to wear her body again on some distant day of rising from the grave. In Hinduism, cremation is a deliberate act of eliminating a wasted body for which the soul has no further use. For worship, Christianity has ornate churches, Hinduism temples with adorned statutes of deities, and Islam plain mosques with mehrabs pointing in the direction of Makkah. In habits of food and drink, Christianity is omnivorous and indifferent to liquor. Islam is selectively omnivorous and averse to liquor. Hinduism is strictly vegetarian.
Even within the same religion, conceptions vary. Reminiscent of Christianity’s separation from Judaism, Buddhism separated from Hinduism, leaving behind Hindu deities, scriptures, rituals, and caste hierarchy, and carrying along the dual doctrines of reincarnation and karma. Like Judaism and Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism consist of multiple denominations, each offering a distinctive doctrinal brand.
So do Taoism and Confucianism, the two indigenous religions of China; in point of fact, neither one is so much a religion as a blueprint for a good life here on earth, with emphasis laid on morality, and with hardly a thought for the afterlife. Even so, the two approach morality from different angles. Confucianism stresses propriety of social conduct. Taoism focuses on the nurture of the inner self.
In Christianity, the sectarian multiplicity is evidence enough of doctrinal diversity. Even the Ten Commandments come in some fifteen versions, or more. A perennial point of controversy has been the integrity of the human mind itself. Can we grasp the truth without the aid of revelation? Must we subject every religious tenet to the adjudication of reason? Saint Thomas Aquinas, who had thoroughly absorbed Ibn Rushd, found no theological doctrine acceptable if it went against reason. But that does not coincide with the position of the Church at large, where faith comes first and reason a distant second. In Christian orthodoxy, man is a sinner; his reasoning cannot be trusted to arbitrate matters of right and wrong.
In Islam, the theologians, philosophers, and Sufis have offered diverse views on the sufficiency of reason. Ibn Rushd, preeminent among Muslim rationalist philosophers, gave equal validity to reason and revelation, arguing that both are necessary and essentially consistent. His critic, Abu Hamid Al Ghazali, inclining to mysticism, discredited reason; instead, he set out to reconcile Sufism with the orthodox tradition. Neither position is consistent with mainstream Islam; wherein mysticism is suspect, and reason is trusted only where she follows in tandem with divine revelation.
At another level, Sunni and Shiite doctrines diverge. To the three core principles of faith held in common, usul al din, namely, the Oneness of God, the Veracity of the Prophets, and the Certainty of an Afterlife Judgment, ÇáÊæÍíÏ¡ ÇáäÈæÉ¡ ÇáãÚÇÏ the Shia add two other core principles: Justice, meaning that God is inherently just, therefore inherently incapable of injustice, and Imamat, meaning that God, not the people, selects men for the task of leadership. While the Sunnis acknowledge Justice as a tenet of faith, though not as an Asl, they reject Imamat altogether as a divinely determined function.
Let us now turn to philosophy. Like religion, philosophy has offered varied and often contradictory perspectives. For example, the pre-Socratic philosophers, Heraclitus and Parmenides taught diametrically opposite views of the fundamental character of reality. Heraclitus saw it as change: nothing is permanent, he said. Parmenides saw it as permanence: nothing ever changes, he concluded. A century later, Plato applied Heraclitus’ thesis of change to the world of the senses, and Parmenides’ antithesis of no-change to the realm of the intellect. Plato thereby produced a synthesis that took his own philosophy a step further. Many centuries later, Friedrich Hegel found in similar philosophical triads a basis for his theory of dialectic.
We may note here two other examples of dialectic. The stoic thesis, which asserts that life’s hardships are best endured with equanimity, and the Epicurean antithesis, which deems the pursuit of pleasure as the highest good, synthesize in the concept of the golden mean, which suggests a middle course between two extremes as invariably the optimum choice. Similarly, the monist view that the soul is one with the body, and the dualistic counterview that the soul is a non-physical entity imprisoned in, but distinct from the body, find synthesis in the view originating with Aristotle and shared by most classical philosophers that the soul, though distinct, is essentially associated with the body, and that through the progress of the soul humanity develops morally and intellectually.
In modern times, France, England, and Germany have each revealed its own distinctive philosophical disposition. France inclined to world rationalism that emphasized the deductive process of thought. From certainty about his own existence Rene Descartes deduced the existence of everything else, including God. England preferred the inductive process, offered empiricism, and produced David Hume who took empiricism to the limit by denying that anything at all exists outside of man’s own perception. Germany developed idealism, and produced Hegel who upheld the authenticity of the human mind in understanding its cosmic environment. In direct opposition to Hume’s denial of the objective world Hegel said the universe is real, and man’s rational conception of the universe, though ever incomplete, is real as well. They present, as it were, the two sides of a coin. “The real is the rational, and the rational is the real,” are his famous words.
Then in the New World, notably with William James and John Dewey, American pragmatism came of age, focused, characteristically, on the practical and useful. Unlike Europe and Asia, who both had seen truth as something intrinsic to an idea, America saw truth as an evolving value, one that attaches to an idea in the process of its actualization in the real world. To find the meaning of an idea, to judge its utility we must examine the consequences to which it leads in action, otherwise dispute about it may be without end, and will surely be without fruit, so wrote Charles Pierce, an earlier pioneer of American pragmatism. Building on Pierce, James focused on the consequences of an idea as the real measure of its value, thereby turning America’s attention in the direction of action and the future. Dewey followed suit, laying emphasis on education as the most effective means of developing a better generation. ‘All the virtue in the world will not save us if we lack intelligence, he wrote. Ignorance is not bliss, it is unconsciousness and slavery. Only intelligence can make us sharers in the shaping of our fates. This, in a way, was young America distancing herself from European metaphysics and attempting to jump ahead of European science. To be herself, to go her own way, America needed a philosophy of her own. Pragmatism came along and provided the rationale for the dynamic, result-oriented thrust of the American experience.
Thus from the pre-Socratic thinkers of Greece to their more scientifically grounded posterity of the 20th Century, philosophers have produced myriad explanations of the natural world and man’s place and role in it. They have agreed, disagreed, synthesized, and quite so often offered contrary views. In fact, the reason why a new philosophy emerges at all is that its proponent finds the previous philosophies inaccurate, inadequate, incoherent, or unsatisfactory in some other way. Such is the nature of the human intellectual inquiry: ever in motion, never capturing a perfect understanding, yet ever striving towards one all the same.
So we see how fertile and innovative the human mind has been, how diverse the thought it has generated over the ages in its perennial quest for comprehending the universe and itself. From that great diversity, various religions, philosophies, theosophies, and mythologies have risen. If we add to that wide panoply of intellection differences of gender, race, culture, and personal temperament, we might think there is little left to point to in terms of commonality of the human condition.
But that would be looking at the trees and missing the forest, focusing on the variable and losing sight of the constant. Deep down what is common among humans is far greater than what is different about them on the surface. We are in essence one species, one genetic pool, one bundle of sentiments. We have come along together on the same evolutionary track - mammals of similar physical and mental constitution, engaged in an ongoing struggle for survival and growth. To prove that we are one humankind the fact suffices that a normal child can ever be born of union between any man and any woman: our reproductive biology will neither object nor impede, nor will it require licensing by culture, creed, race, or country. And a child born thus is every bit as preciously human as any other child.
Nor are we different in our basic human characteristics. We thrive on freedom, and atrophy in serfdom. We expand with knowledge, and contract with ignorance. We are nourished by the same foods, and sickened by the same toxins. We are attacked by the same diseases and cured by the same medicines. We laugh and cry for the same reasons. We invariably seek happiness, and wish misfortune would never knock at our door. Love enlivens us, apathy stifles us, and hatred poisons our days. We care for our families, and beyond that, we like to be of service to fellow humans. There is something intrinsically human about us all, and that is our common vital center.
Beyond the dynamic nature of human thought, which never ceases to produce new understandings and insights, lies that vital center. Religion and philosophy alike have felt its presence, and embodied its tenets in their teachings. Even mythologies have paid homage to it. As a result, remarkably enough, all thought systems, however divergent, point to the same ethical ideas for fashioning a good and enlightened life, on both the personal and societal planes. All view humanity as one, and make it, rather than any particular social or ethnic group, the object of their interest. Philosophy, as expounded variously by its several schools, and religion, as represented variously by its major faiths of Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Shintoism, Taoism, and Confucianism, all present themselves as universal systems. Each, in its own way, has tried its hand at globalization, and each has succeeded in some measure. Today they collectively belt the globe.
Thus, beyond the diversity of human thought, we discern the commonality of the human condition - evidenced not only by our shared qualities, sentiments, and needs, but also by our shared mathematics and science, and our pervasive love of learning. We reason alike, cooperate, strive for similar goals, and instinctively admit to the same moral code. We recognize in common the principles and practices that sustain and nurture us as individuals and societies, and we seek the same values that enhance us as humans and citizens. By the same token, we agree as to what degrades our lives, diminishes our worth, and impedes our progress. And we know by experience that accumulated negativism in thought, word, and action ultimately plunges us in conflict and chaos.
The ethical compass we collectively share is our ultimate guide in shaping a graceful and productive life. Moral good and enlightened self-interest, in the final analysis, are one and the same. The great teachers of mankind said as much, as they went about living ethically, and educating their contemporaries in doing likewise. From Hammurabi’s law of 18th Century B.C., to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the Twentieth Century, theirs has been one consistent effort to crystallize, codify, and maintain ethical standards in the human experience at large.
They realized, as we ought to realize, too, that any time we diminish ethical standards we diminish ourselves; any time we ignore morality, we do so at our own peril. There is no gain to be realized from an immoral act, only a negative return that strikes at the victim, society, and the perpetrator himself. By the same token, a moral act, intentioned and engineered to be good and right, benefits both the receiver and the giver; beyond that, it benefits society and posterity at large.
At the societal level, moral relapse results in collective degradation. Injustice leads to political and social turmoil; ultimately it destroys national cohesion. Inequality diminishes human worth; eventually it ignites class warfare. Factionalism undermines cooperative effort, impeding progress. Despotism begets corruption, which then undercuts public trust. Let a society with any religion, race, culture, or geography take to these social ills, and it will suffer and regress. Conversely, let a society with any religion, race, culture, or geography establish justice, equality, human dignity, and sound governance, and it will prosper and advance.
The Prophets and sages of all nations, ever conscious of humanity as a whole, transcending borders, have addressed their wisdom to humankind at large. They have told us: You may think differently, act differently, be different in as many ways as you like. But you must all conform to the one morality that springs up from the well of your common nature, your primordial fitrah - as the Quran calls it.
That we are one at the base and diverse on the surface, that diversity is not adversity but a dynamic that brings out the best in us, and that righteousness is the true measure of our excellence as individuals and nations - these are vital truths of our common human condition – truths that we must never overlook.
The Glorious Qur’an illuminates: íÇ ÃíåÇ ÇáäÇÓ ÅäÇ ÎáÞäÇßã ãä ÐßÑ æÃäËì æÌÚáäÇßã ÔÚæÈÇ æÞÈÇÆá áÊÚÇÑÝæÇ¡ Åä ÃßÑãßã ÚäÏ Çááå ÃÊÞÇßã¡ Åä Çááå Úáíã ÎÈíÑ (ÇáÍÌÑÇÊ 13) O Mankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is he (who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
=============================================
Mr. Sulaiman presented this address on July 11, 2001 at Al-Hewar Center in metro Washington, D.C. The event was cosponsored by the Graduate School of Islamic and Social Sciences
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Complex stuff...the human mind...i hope we go round filling it with useful stuff...!
Sadiq!
Netcurtains
21-04-2002, 20:35
I wonder why the university (from the original link) is
called Magnolia? (A beautiful tree).
But anyway - I have been in contact with many people
who have had mental breakdowns. If you speak to hospital
staff and even keep your ears open you will soon note that
reams and reams of stuff comes out of these "ill" peoples
mouths and tons of it is of a religious nature. When our
brain has a "core dump" it often appears that religion is
deep within it - it seems to be at the core of our being.
Jesus crops up again and again (in my culture) even for
people who have no obvious religious inclination (before
they became ill).
When people have breakdowns in the Muslim world do doctors
and nurses note a similiar situation as the UK?
Netty i have seen your interest in science a very 'big' subject, with alot of info...explaing some issues of life..not all
I would direct you and those viewing this thread to this link..i was sent this by someone...quite appealing and correct..with the info.
Muslim Scientists, Muslim Astronomers!
Link> http://cyberistan.org/islamic/
"..Father of Chemistry...link> http://cyberistan.org/islamic/haiyan.html.."
"..for his famous Medical Encyclopedia...link> http://cyberistan.org/islamic/zahravi.html.."
"..the grand commentator on the philosophy of Aristotle, whose influence penetrated the minds of even the most conservative of Christian Ecclesiastes in the Middle Ages, including ...Link> http://cyberistan.org/islamic/rushd.html.."
VIEW the link and be in touch to the wealth of muslim scholars who have given such knowledge to the modern world...
Sadiq!
Netty i will reply with a short response...need to do some work..not free as you are...!
>I wonder why the university (from the original link) is
>called Magnolia? (A beautiful tree).
>
>But anyway - I have been in contact with many people
>who have had mental breakdowns. If you speak to hospital
>staff and even keep your ears open you will soon note that
>reams and reams of stuff comes out of these "ill" peoples
>mouths and tons of it is of a religious nature. When our
>brain has a "core dump" it often appears that religion is
>deep within it - it seems to be at the core of our being.
>Jesus crops up again and again (in my culture) even for
>people who have no obvious religious inclination (before
>they became ill).
>
>When people have breakdowns in the Muslim world do doctors
>and nurses note a similiar situation as the UK?
I dont think so, muslims are not 'ill' because of some religious reasons as you have stated. When people stop looking after them...UK USA..burgers and other food...then the result is illness.
'tons' of people...some try and drive a plane...before riding a bike..so people sometimes go into 'depth'..so to say..and they begin to speak 'relgious nature' or material.
You dont need to buy a ferrari to drive fast...any 'banger' isnt the word..any car will take you to A from B..or is it the other way round.
Those 'ill' or super religious people..sometimes go beyond the walls..so the result is that they feel they know something we dont know..
You experiencing some 'illnes'' netty? stay safe..! And hospital is full of different illness..be aware..
Sadiq!
Netcurtains
21-04-2002, 22:02
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 21-04-02 AT 10:15 PM (GMT)]lol - I'm ok but I used to help out a bit at some psyciatric hospitals. I do have a lot of free time because I'm a parent of young kids without a baby sitter. I'm quite happy to be on the net between playing games with the kids.
SALEM WITCHCRAFT
"The fourth type of schizophrenia is the paranoid type. It is characterized primarily by the presence of delusions of persecution or grandeur. Hallucinations are often present. Excessive religiosity is sometimes seen"
http://earlyamerica.com/review/2000_fall/salem_witch.html
ISLAMIC SCIENCE COMING BACK ONLINE
http://www.ssq.net/Media/Media_Articles/UPI_Iqubal/upi_iqubal.html
SCHIZOPHRENIA and RELGION
http://www.internetguides.com/cgi-bin/frameit.cgi?url=http://www.well.com/user/elliotts/smse_schizo.html
Joe (in his thread Sura 95) just made me look into a beautiful chapter which says..
Man will be returned to lowest of the low except those who beleive... so i think those who are true believers do not have mental break downs... (something along these lines not exact quotation)
I certainly have not seen any religious muslim have a break down so far... Alhamdulillah
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-04-02 AT 05:38 AM (GMT)]Salaam,
I'm don't know that Netty meant physical breakdowns. Anyway, I've definitely had quite a few of the figurative breakdowns after searching for Allah. But unless you break, you can't be fixed! It's only after I've broke, after my pride was torn apart that there was room for Allah to fit into my life.
God is true to the proverb, you break it, you buy it. He broke me, He bought me!
JBJ
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-04-02 AT 01:26 PM (GMT)]JBJ...
First I want to say... since ur not a muslim... can u please not use the Word Allah when speaking about whoever you worship. The word Allah has specific assumptions coming with it as to the characteristics...
it is a bit misleading especially for those who are not muslims around here!!
If you had a breakdown after looking for God then u have not found him yet.... I searched.. had a break down... searched again... then found Allah... and islam... and have not had break downs yet... so.. i guess u need to search again... with a different attitude though.
as i said... if ur not muslim... Allah didn't fit in ur life.. its ur god whoever that god is...
so please do be careful when using islamic terminology ..
thanks
Salaam Rasha,
Our God and your God is One. (Surah 29.46)
But you misunderstood me! I didn't mean real breakdowns, I meant "figurative breakdowns." That is, I broke. In normal breakdowns you turn out for the worse, with God you go in for the better.
Someone might say, "because I was suffering before, I converted, and now I'm okay, therefore my religion must be the right one." If so, then all religions are true. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Wiccan, and more. Because someone can have the experience with any religion.
I once stood between religions. During and before that time I suffered from clinical depression, inherited from my mother's side. Then I had real breakdowns. God found me and I took Him, took the God who truly loves His people. Since that night, I haven't had a depressive episode, had a literal breakdown, or considered suicide.
Muhammad was told to "Recite in the Name of your Lord who created you." Later he attempted suicide.
God has never fit in my life. He's just too big. I try though, I tell Him, "God, Take all the space you want." He takes more space, but He never fits. There's still more love, more holiness, more wisdom, more majesty . . . it never ends! He never fits. God stretches me and stretches me.
Does it feel good? Sometimes, sometimes not. Sometimes God stretches so far I feel I'm going to tear, going to break. But I never really break, He doesn't let me. As both the Bible and Qur'an says, He never tests a person beyond their limits.
This is what the Lord God says: "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?" (Jeremiah 9.7)
Why? Because God must. Sin is death. Too much sin, you die. Sin is like a cancer, it attaches to you and grows. It sucks out your life. It takes a beautiful thing like the relationship between men and women, and turns into something perverted. Love into lust; food into gluttony; truth to lies; sustenance into greed; there is nothing in sin that isn't taken from something originally good. Can you simply destroy lust? Or banish greed? Not without destroying the sustenance and love they come from. Instead they must be ripped apart.
God will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. (Malachi 3.3)
Now, if my life was all good and happy, then there's something to worry about. Those who cry, "peace, peace," when there is no peace. Sin: giants roam the land today. And in our hearts. No man is righteous, no, not one. Do we ignore sin? No, we struggle. With no struggle is no growth. And what does sin want but to fool us into thinking we're okay?
We have sin in our lives, therefore we must move to get away. If we're just okay, if we say "peace, peace," we stay right where we are. Smack dab in the middle of sin. Right where sin wants us. The farthest from where Allah wants us.
Therefore, I move. I let myself be stretched. No pain, no gain. I let myself be broken. I don't break myself, I ask God, "Lord, break me, take my pieces apart and build them together again as something better." And it works. Every time. I break; I hurt. But in the end - I'm built! And nothing ever feels better.
God is treating you as children. And what child is not disciplined by his father? (Hebrews 12.7)
And it's so true. The words of God are alive, sharper than a sword, piercing the soul and spirit. Every time I break, I think, "yes, come Lord, come." Do it again. Break. Build. Refine. Purify. Love. I've seen it. I've felt it. And there's nothing in life I'm more sure of.
If you are not disciplined...then you are illegitimate children and not true children.
That's the test of the Bible. It says, if you're not disciplined, you're not a son nor daughter, and everything in the Bible - love and God being a father and everything - it's wrong. The Bible puts itself so vulnerable. How easy would it be to prove this false? And how much more glorious when the weak was proven strong! It was an amazing night.
God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Amin. I've been trained and I have recieved peace unparalleled. God passes the test. Come Lord, come.
JBJ
"Muhammad was told to "Recite in the Name of your Lord who created you." Later he attempted suicide."
SubhanaAllah!! JBJ... this is not true... this is a false statement!!!!!!!!!!
Where do u get these wrong things from??? who feeds u this garbage?? This is not true... the prophet never attempted suicide!!.
As for being tested... everyone is tested in life... good or bad. For a purpose God has. For the righeous... testing erases their sins, elevates their position and faith... the prophets were the most tested....
the righeous when tested is patient and understands this is temporary life.. it will pass... we will get to God's final abode one day!
Netcurtains
25-04-2002, 23:44
Hi,
Apparently (possibly a red herring):
"
Quoted from the Sahih (authentic) Hadith (traditions) of Bukhari, [2], Volume 9, number 111.
"
Bukhari? who is he?
Netcurtains
25-04-2002, 23:53
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-04-02 AT 10:56 PM (GMT)]Here is the suicide link:
http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/bukhari/087_sbt.html
"But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: 'He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)' (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night). "
Thanks NetCurtains.. I will be asking a few knowledgable people for an explanation :)
servant_of_Allah
26-04-2002, 05:12
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 26-04-02 AT 04:21 AM (GMT)]Assalamu Alaykum sister Rasha !
Dear sister, i had, some time back, asked sister Lulua to post a reply on this subject on my behalf, which she did.
Of'course, i am not surprised that both JBJ and Netcurtains mentioned what they did about Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), but both of them did not post the reply that was given by Muslims. I assume they just don't want you and the others to know the truth. They have come to preach falsehood, and i hope the authorities in charge look into this matter. Infact, you're a moderator, you can take action against them.
Here is the reply the Muslims scholars gave :
Question : Assalamu Alaykum ! I was having a debate with a Christian on various matters. One point the Christian raised was that Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) tried to commit suicide, or intended to do so. I did not believe him at first, but then he told me to read volume 9, book 87, hadith number 111 of Al Bukhari. Part of this hadith states: "But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down,...." The Christian further went on to say, and i shall quote him or his sources (Answering-islam.org is the site he got this from), verbatim. They said: "And what kind of action is this for a prophet of God?" Astagfarullah. Dear Ulema, plz reply to these enemies of Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Jazaakum Allah Khair in advance. Wassalamu Alaykum.
Answer : Wa`alykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Thanks for this serious question, which reflects your concern about Islam. We really commend your efforts in pursuit of truth. This is what is required of all people, to seek truth and not to give in to anything that may cloud their minds with fake ideas about Islam.
In response to your question, Sheikh `Abdul-Majeed Subh, a prominent Azharite scholar, states:
"Brother, to refute this distortion you are to consider the following three facts:
1. This incident took place before the Prophet's reception of the messengership. There is a great different between the prophethood and the messengership. When the revelation firstly came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, he was not sure that whether it's a Divine revelation or something else. Then, at the time of that incident the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, was not commanded to deliver a mission to his people and, accordingly, he was a Prophet, not a Messenger yet.
2. He just intended to do so, and one cannot be admitted as guilty because of his intention, as long as he does not translate his intention into practice.
3. This state reflected his anxiety to know the identity of what came to him, whether it's a Divine revelation or something else.
Those who say that this incident was a suicide trial, are distorting the facts. They quoted a part of the narration and concluded fake ideas from it."
Allah Almighty knows best.
Fatwa Editor:
W. Shihab
I got this reply from www.islamonline.net
Wassalamu Alaykum,
servant of Allah.
________
girlfriends pics (http://girlfriendpics.org)
I was not distorting the facts. If he did not intend suicide, what did he attempt?
I wasn't aware that a response was given elsewhere. I'll look for it.
JBJ
Netcurtains
26-04-2002, 07:56
Thanks Huda.
You seem a stand up sort of guy.
Cheers Netty
stand up... sit down... whatever u wish! I'm a female by the way.
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Greetings and good day.
I have an excellent message in relation to all this...but not posting it yet until I finish reading the rest of the replies, inshaAllah.
But have to say this one thing at this time...JBJ...and all others as well...God, Allah, or whatever you wish to call Him, does not break you in order to buy you, nor does HE need to buy you. In fact, He owns you to begin with.
There is a verse in the Quran...and as is consistent with all things in life...the Quran has an answer or a comment for all things.
Without giving the exact number of the verse (don't have my Quran search disc here with me)...it goes like this, in English:
'From Allah we come, and to Him shall we return'.
Quite potent...and indicating surely that He owns us all the time...whether or not we turn to Him or whether or not we worship Him...still he is the owner and master of every single thing of this creation. And surely He owns us. Doesn't buy us...nor does He need to buy us. It is us who are in need of Him...and not He that is in need of us.
Lulua.
Netcurtains
03-05-2002, 08:03
Whoops.
You have a male way of writing.
And there is nothing wrong with that.
Most places assume I'm a woman.
Neety.
A Muslimah
03-05-2002, 16:27
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-05-02 AT 03:37 PM (GMT)]Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatu Allahi wa Barakaatoh
Dear Brothers and Sisters
Others...
My Dear Sis Rasha has missed servant of Allah's post which has the answer...I re-quote inshaaAllah what the brother posted - may Allah reward him - Ameen.
>In response to your question, Sheikh `Abdul-Majeed Subh, a
>prominent Azharite scholar, states:
>
>"Brother, to refute this distortion you are to consider the
>following three facts:
>
>1. This incident took place before the Prophet's reception
>of the messengership. There is a great different between the
>prophethood and the messengership. When the revelation
>firstly came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon
>him, he was not sure that whether it's a Divine revelation
>or something else. Then, at the time of that incident the
>Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, was not commanded
>to deliver a mission to his people and, accordingly, he was
>a Prophet, not a Messenger yet.
>
>2. He just intended to do so, and one cannot be admitted as
>guilty because of his intention, as long as he does not
>translate his intention into practice.
>
>3. This state reflected his anxiety to know the identity of
>what came to him, whether it's a Divine revelation or
>something else.
>
>Those who say that this incident was a suicide trial, are
>distorting the facts. They quoted a part of the narration
>and concluded fake ideas from it."
>
>Allah Almighty knows best.
>
>Fatwa Editor:
>
>W. Shihab
>
>I got this reply from www.islamonline.net
>
>Wassalamu Alaykum,
>servant of Allah.
Now, before I came on the board and read all this, I have asked as well and alhamduliAllah I've been given the same answer (in a harsher tone):
People lack reading comprehension skills. You do not need a PHD scholar to tell u that this hadith occured BEFORE the Prophet(saw) embraced Islam. It specifically states that when Jibreel came to him he did not know who he was and thought Jabreel was a jinn and thought that he was losing his mind and YES he comtemplated suciCide.. THE PROPHET(SAW) HAD NO YET RECEIVED THE REVELATION.
As People we need to develope our reading comprehension skills so then we can read a simple excerpt of something and not Miss the esence of it.
So basically...JBJ and Nutcurtains (excuse the spelling if I spelled wrong)...you're missing the point!
The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had NOT received the revelation and the message YET! He merely had the Angel Jibreel (Gabriel) come to him and hold him so tight...it obviously was NEW and scary and confusing!! He didn't know what to think of it! After Waraqa had told him that he is to be a Prophet - as all evidence indicated - and after realizing that no revelations came...it was a shock as well...could it be wrong? Could I have missed the revelations? What now?
You must understand that AFTER he got the message, he NEVER attempted suicide. Search all you want...you will not find ONE evidence to support that. So after finding God...you indeed do find peace.
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance of Allah.
A Muslimah.
Assalamu alikom...
Jazaky Allah khair sis A Muslimah for ur help.... I wanted to personally apologize for brother Servant of Allah because I missed his post, I guess I was too caught up with managing the board here and my other shores.... So sorry brother.
I was going to translate my findings from arabic but when i spoke to sis A Muslimah, and then she pointed out brother servant of Allah's post... I thought... there is exactly what i wanted to say.. no need for repetition.
As for Netcurtains and JBJ, Well... what I noticed most of the time is that the info they paste regarding islam is always either misquoted, misunderstood or something like that. Netcurtains I think is too western and doesn't yet know the true teachings of islam and thus has his own weird assumptions... JBJ... I do not know if you intentionally want to make islam look bad and mislead others or if u really are confused... either way... both of u please be careful what u post... and i do not mean do not ask... it was good to ask... but JBJ said it as if he is 100% sure he knows what he is talking about...when in fact he doesn't.
Again Jazak Allah brother Servant of Allah and sis A Muslimah...and peace to all.
wassalamu alikom.
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Greetings and good day to all.
The following article was sent to me via email. I found it rather interesting, and relevant to the questions and topic of this discussion.
I do not know of the source of this article, but do know that it has come from some media source-i.e. newspaper, etc. But the exact source, cannot verify. And the article is not my own, so please do not ask me to clarify any more than what you see here.
As for the healing qualities of remembrance of Allah, and reciting the Quran and listening to recitations, I can vouch for that not only by evidences of this from both the Quran and ahadith, but from personal experience as well. It is something that for some ppl is rather difficult to believe or to understand unless or until you personally experience it. But there is a strong healing quality, and there are many recorded proofs of this healing from the time of the prophet(SAAW) himself, up until today.
Surely, Allah knows best.
please do read on.
Lulua.
--------------
Vander Hoven, a psychologist from Netherlands, announced his new
discovery about the effect of reading the Quran and repeating the word ALLAH both on patients and on normal persons.
The Dutch professor confirms his discovery with studies and research applied on many patients over a period of three years. Some of his patients were non-Muslims, others do not speak Arabic and were trained to pronounce the word "ALLAH" clearly; the result was great, particularly on those who suffer from dejection and tension.
Al Watan, a Saudi daily reported that the psychologist was quoted to say that Muslims who can read Arabic and who read the Quran regularly can protect themselves from psychological diseases.
The psychologist explained how each letter in the word "ALLAH" affects healing of psychological diseases. He pointed out in his research that pronouncing the first letter in the word "ALLAH" which is the letter (A),released from the respiratory system, controls breathing.
He added that pronouncing the velar consonant (L) in the Arabic way, with the tongue touching slightly the upper part of the jaw producing a short pause and then repeating the same pause constantly, relaxes the aspiration. Also,pronouncing the last letter which is the letter (H) makes a contact between the lungs and the heart and in turn this contact controls the heart beat.
What is exciting in the study is that this psychologist is a non-Muslim, but interested in Islamic sciences and searching for the secrets of the Holy Quran.
Allah, The Great and Glorious, says, We will show them Our signs in the universe and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (Quran) is the truth. (Holy Quran 42:53)
Thank you for sharing.... You article reminds me of another article which I read, Here it is:
The Medicine of Koran
Taken from http://www.islamicmessage.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(We will show them Our signs in countries and themselves, until it becomes clear to them, that this is true.) (Surah "Elucidated"; 53)
One of Swiss pharmaceutical companies has started producing a newest medicine called "Medicine of Koran", which allows the treatment of cataract that leads to partial or total blindness without surgery and during one hour.
As the newspaper "Ar-Raya", published in Qatar, writes this drug, which was synthesized by an Egyptian doctor Abdulbasit Muhammad from the secretions of human sweat glands and has an effectiveness of 99% with complete absence of side effects, was registered in Europe and USA. It is also reported that one of the Swiss companies produces the new drug in
the form of liquid and eye drops.
The source of inspiration is Surah "Yousuf": According to the newspaper, Dr. Abdulbasit Muhammad, who emphasized that he obtained his inspiration from the Surah "Yousuf" told the following about the medicine named "Drug of Koran": "Once in the morning I was busy reading the Surah "Yousuf". My attention lingered over the eighty-fourth and successive ayahs. They tell that prophet Yakub, who was mourning his son Yousuf (Peace be
upon both of them!) in sadness and grief, got his eyes turned white and later, when people cast over the sorrow-stricken father's face the shirt of his son Yousuf, vision returned to him and he could see like before. Here, I started pondering. What could be there in the shirt of Yousuf? Finaly I reached the decision that nothing except sweat could be on it. I concentrated my thoughts over the sweat and its composition. Then, I proceeded to laboratory research. I carried out a series of experiments on rabbits. The results turned out to be rather positive. Later, I performed treatment on 250 volunteer patients by administering the drug twice a day during two weeks. Finally, I achieved a 99% success and told, "This is the miracle of Koran!".
The doctor's condition:
A. Muhammad also remarked that he presented the results of his research to appropriate instances in Europe and USA dealing with patenting of new discoveries for consideration and after the confrimation that came once tests and research were performed he concluded a contract with an apirant Swiss company on the medicine's production with one condition: place the name "Medicine of Koran" on the package. In the words of the Egyptian scientist, the company accepted his condotion and started producing the newest drug.
SubhuhaanAllah! Glory be to Allah!
and also this article (I do not have the source however, i have saved it for a while and can't tell where i got it from)
The Sounds of the Quran
The sounds produced by the Arabic words are most unique. No other language in the world uses so many varied combinations of sounds.
Research has shown that certain sounds are beneficial to health. Natural sounds made by nature like the flow of water, birds singing etc has therapeutic value. The recitation of the Quran produces sounds that are most unique and beautiful. It goes without saying that there can be nothing more beneficial then to read and/or listen to the Quran.
The rhyming nature of the verses and the varied rhythm also contribute to its beauty and therapeutic value.
So feast your ears on the beautiful sounds of the recitation of the Quran. Work towards learning how to read the Quran as the Qari’s do.
A pregnant mother should read the Quran often as well as listen to the recitation. The unborn child will be conditioned to be familiar with the Arabic sounds. When I was pregnant I would constantly play a special recording of the Al Fatiha and the Azan. After the child is born the recitation from the cassette player should be used to further familiarize the child with the Arabic sounds. Playing the same surah constantly will enable the child to eventually start repeating the words when his vocal cords are ready.
Assalaamu alaikum.
Ah, yes, sister...I do remember reading that very same article a while back...good that you have been able to reproduce it here. MashaAllah...it is excellent.
SubhanAllah...we have within the Quran so much...in the form of guidance, reminders, comforts, and even healing. If only we will take heed and use it as Allah has intended it to be taken.
Alhamdulillah...surely He has given us a great gift in the Quran.
And...from a voice of experience...it works.
Lulua.
:)
Yes you are right... it does work and the amazing part is that even kids who do not know much about religion at least can sense that. My youngest sister is only 6.... but whenever she is sooo sick or soo tired... she'd say.. I feel bad can u put on some Quran. NO ONE has ever told her Quraan heals... we simply put Quran on every now and then... but she just knows it has the power.. its the word of God.
My brothers all can't go to sleep without Quraan in the room.. they ask me to turn it off before i sleep because they love to sleep on Quraan. The examples are numerous.... Quraan has a power which we do not realize.... one which we will never fully understand... but its enough to know its the word of Allah... what else would we want.
Assalaamu alaikum.
Interesting and so true. What your brothers and sister have mentioned is a result of experience, if not knowledge. For they have experienced the effect of the soothing and comforting aspect of the recitation of the Quran. And they were comforted by it, and so they request it again.
This is one of the miracles of the Quran.
SubhanAllah.
MashaAllah.
Wal-hamdulillah.
Lulua.
Salam to all!
So many kind words and advice from everyone, i think the sisters should write a book or something, lol.
Read and listen to the quran and it will make your heart understand. I give some links later, to wonderful recitation by respected ulama.
Sadiq!
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