View Full Version : Translation of Surah 4.157
A quick question for Arabic speakers:
In Surah 4.157, Yusuf Ali translates but so it was made to appear to them, Pickthall translates, but it appeared so unto them, and Shakir also translates but it appeared to them so. The difference is that Ali uses "made," implying there a force doing the making, but the others imply there was no particular force, that is just kind of happened.
Is Yusuf Ali right, the others, or are both translation types possible? Thanks!
JBJ
Greetings...
I looked up the actual verse and Ibn kathir's explanation... but before i get to the actual verse I want to point out... Yusuf Ali or whatever translation u read is simply an attempt to translate the meaning for those who do not know arabic... but the quraan is only in its original form... ARABIC!
Anyways... when I read the arabic verse.. it seemed as clear as could be put... If i was to translate it i'd say... They did not kill him or crusify him but they thought it was him... i.e. they imagined it.
A very good translation which i find very clear and easy to understand in english is the Noble Quraan. If you wish to read it, check www.quraan.com
Regarding this verse they say: And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts.
This is exactly what ibn kathir explains except he goes into more details of the actual story of how the other man seemed to look like Jesus and how Jesus was raised etc.
hope this helps.... keep up the reading and please do ask more and more on what u read if it is not as clear.
Dr Qaisar
29-03-2002, 01:41
Greetings, JBJ
>A quick question for Arabic speakers:
>
>In Surah 4.157, Yusuf Ali translates but so it was made
>to appear to them, Pickthall translates, but it
>appeared so unto them, and Shakir also translates but
>it appeared to them so. The difference is that Ali uses
>"made," implying there a force doing the making, but the
>others imply there was no particular force, that is just
>kind of happened.
>
>Is Yusuf Ali right, the others, or are both translation
>types possible? Thanks!
>
>JBJ
Actually, JBJ, there is hardly any difference in the translation by the three translators. Usually, the choice of one or two different words does not alter the basic meaning as long as a faithful attempt is made to convey the meaning and context of a particular verse. In this case, whether one uses the phrase, "made to appear to them", or "it appeared to them", the general meaning or impression is very much the same! Anyway, the incident in question (as everything in general) occured by the Will and Command of God (Allah) and it was a test for the people concerned ie. whether they believed in Allah or not!! Thus, it was Allah only who 'made' it happen. I hope you really pay much attention and give a serious thought to the last part of that (translated) verse!!....... "Those who differ therein are full of doubts and follow nothing but conjecture"!!!! Conclusion: God (Allah) leaves to wander blindly or in doubt those who deliberately and wilfully disbelieve in or deny Him and His signs after God (Allah) has revealed His Revelations.
Dr.Qaisar
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 05:23 PM (GMT)]Greetings Dr.Qaisar and Rasha!
In the verse that JBJ was asking about, if I am reading it correctly, it seems to say (if I might paraphrase) that Allah was upset with the Jews, so he sent them Jesus, and the Jews thought they killed Jesus, but they didn't really. (Did I get it right?)
Then in verse 159, it says Jesus will judge the Jews.
I have a couple of questions:
1) Is this verse (v.159) where Islam might get the idea that Jesus is comming back (as indicated on another thread)?
2) Can the early faithful Jewish followers of Jesus (i.e. 12 apostles), really be faulted by Allah for believing that Jesus was crucified since Allah made it appear that way to everyone (faithful and unfaithful)?
3) In Islamic thought, did Jesus ever die, or was he ascended like Elijah and Enoch?
Peace and blessings!
jcecil3
Well.... I think you got it right....just incase i would like to just briefly mention how the story goes...
The jews were rebellious, they killed every prophet that came to them. After Moses, they rebelled again and distorted their religion and moved away from Allah, so again God sent him another warner, Jesus peace be upon him. However, the disbelieved and wanted to kill him, and thus as to protect his messenger, Allah made it seem to them as if its Jesus but it was not, because Jesus was taken to the sky.
Verse 159 is not where Islam knows that Jesus will come back, there are many more and it is specifically clear in the ahadith of the prophet peace be upon him where he speaks of the signs of day of judgement.
The Prophet (saws) said: "I swear by Allaah, 'Eesaa Ibn Maryam will indeed descend judging (mankind) with justice." This hadeeth is agreed upon.
"The Muslims have unanimously agreed upon his descent. He will descend by the white minaret in the east of Damascus, placing his hands upon the wings of two angels. Then it will not be possible for a disbeliever to perceive the scent of his breath, except that he will die. And his breath will extend as far his eyesight extends. He will search for the Dajjaal until he reaches him by the gate of Ludd, where he will kill him. He will break the cross and abolish the jizyah (taxation collected from subjected disbelievers). And the prostration (of worship) will be only one - for Allaah the Lord of the universe. He will also perform Hajj and 'Umrah. All of this is confirmed in Saheeh Muslim and some of it in both Saheehs"
Imaam Ahmad and Abu Dawood reported that "'Eesaa will remain for forty years after killing the Dajjaal. Then he will die and the Muslims will pray the funeral prayer (Janaazah) over him." Al-Bukhaaree mentioned in his At-Tareekh that he will be buried next to the Prophet (saws) and Allaah knows best.
So you see its not just this verse, there is I bet more, I can do a search for you... if you wish. It wouldn't be that hard.
The Jewish state (apostles) who followed Jesus, would they be judged? is it fair! Well when I was reading the explanation of ibn khathir regarding the verse, it says... When Jesus was rejected, and only very few accepted him, Jesus peace be upon him said to his apostles, who would like to be with me in heavens, but he has to be made to "look like me". One man rose, Jesus told him to sit down, he repeated the same question several times and only the same man got up and thus he was chosen. Jesus was taken to the sky, the man was made to look like Jesus, and was crusified. After that, the apostles didn't stay on the right track, some said Jesus was God, some said Jesus was the son of God, and some said Jesus was just a messenger, and thus they broke into groups. There was a fight between the three groups, the one group saying that he was simply a messenger was killed and thus no one had monotheism again except very very few.
Thus, you can see, the apostles who stayed on the truth will not be punished or judged, only those who went astray or disbelieved will be.
Jesus did not die yet, he was ascended. I do not know about Elijah and Enoch.
Thanks Rasha!
I don't know how to word this question in a way that might not sound insulting. Please understand that my intent is not to insult your faith. Rather, I want to understand -- because this is a key difference of opinion between Muslims and Christians (whether Jesus died on the cross or not).
Can you tell me why Allah played this elaborate hoax of making anyone believe that Jesus was crucified?
I mean, if Allah never lies, why didn't he just ascend Jesus in front of everyone so that everyone would know that he was a true prophet and that they were wrong?
It seems that the Qur'an is implying that Allah practiced deception and had an innocent man killed in the process so that he could save Jesus, and he performed this deception in such a way that the evil-doers who wanted to kill Jesus did not know they were wrong to want to kill him. And it still seems unfair that Jesus' followers really thought Jesus died on the cross, and are somehow at fault for believing a deception that Allah initiated....
I know that there must be an explanation for this that makes sense to Muslims, so please don't be offended that I am asking the question this way. To be honest, if you could really prove to me that the crucifiction of Jesus never happenned, I would abandon Christianity. But I can't believe it never happenned based only on the argument that the Qur'an says so. I need to understand why Allah would do such a deceptive thing and what other evidence there is that Allah did do such a deceptive thing.
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
>Greetings Dr.Qaisar and Rasha!
>
>In the verse that JBJ was asking about, if I am reading it
>correctly, it seems to say (if I might paraphrase) that
>Allah was upset with the Jews, so he sent them Jesus, and
>the Jews thought they killed Jesus, but they didn't really.
>(Did I get it right?)
Yes exactly, Isa(as) was sent to the lost sheeps of the children of Israel.
Remember his own words: 'I am not sent but unto the people of Israel.'
>1) Is this verse (v.159) where Islam might get the idea that
>Jesus is comming back (as indicated on another thread)?
>
>2) Can the early faithful Jewish followers of Jesus (i.e. 12
>apostles), really be faulted by Allah for believing that
>Jesus was crucified since Allah made it appear that way to
>everyone (faithful and unfaithful)?
>
>3) In Islamic thought, did Jesus ever die, or was he
>ascended like Elijah and Enoch?
The answer may be long but it is worth to read it--EVEN FOR MUSLIMS !
Read the following passages about the facts of the crucification !
Jesus Consoles his Disciples
Jesus, being in the house of Nicodemus; beyond the brook Cedron, comforted his disciples, saying: 'The hour is near that I must depart from the world; console yourselves and be not sad, seeing that where I go I shall not feel any tribulation. 'Now, shall you be my friends if you be sad at my welfare? No, assuredly, but rather enemies. When the world shall rejoice, be you sad, because the rejoicing of the world is turned into weeping; but your sadness shall be turned into joy and your joy shall no one take from you: for the rejoicing that the heart feels in God its creator not the whole world can take away. See that you forget not the words which God has spoken to you by my mouth. Be you my witnesses against every one that shall corrupt the witness that I have witnessed with my gospel; against the world, and against the lovers of the world.
Jesus Prays
Then lifting up his hands to the Lord, he prayed, saying: 'Lord our God, God of Abraham;, God of Ishmael ;and Isaac;, God of our fathers, have mercy upon them that you have given me, and save them from the world. I say not, take them from the world, because it is necessary that they shall bear witness against them that shall corrupt my gospel. But I pray you to keep them from evil, that on the day of your judgment they may come with me to bear witness against the world and against the House of Israel that has corrupted your testament.
Lord God, mighty and jealous, that take vengeance upon idolatry against the sons of idolatrous fathers even to the fourth generation, do you curse eternally every one that shall corrupt my gospel that you gave me, when they write that I am your son. For I, clay and dust, am servant of your servants, and never have I thought myself to be your good servant; for I cannot give you aught in return for that which you have given me, for all things are yours.
Lord God, the merciful, that shows mercy to a thousand generations upon them that fear you, have mercy upon them which believe my words that you have given me. For even as you are true God, so your word which I have spoken is true; for it is yours, seeing I have ever spoken as one that reads, who cannot read save that which is written in the book that he reads: even so have I spoken that which you have given me.
'Lord God the Saviour, save them whom you have given me, in order that Satan may not be able to do aught against them, and save not only them, but every one that shall believe in them. Lord, bountiful and rich in mercy, grant to your servant to be in the congregation of your Messenger; on the Day of Judgment: and not me only, but every one whom you have given me, with all them that shall believe on me through their preaching. And this do, Lord, for your own sake, that Satan boast not himself against you, Lord.
'Lord God, who by your providence provides all things necessary for your people Israel, be mindful of all the tribes of the earth, which you have promised to bless by your Messenger, for whom you did create the world. Have mercy on the world and send speedily your Messenger, that Satan your enemy may lose his empire.' And having said this, Jesus said three times: 'So be it, Lord, great and merciful!' And they answered, weeping: 'So be it," all save Judas, for he believed nothing.
Jesus Washes Disciples' Feet
The day having come for eating the lamb, Nicodemus sent the lamb secretly to the garden for Jesus and his disciples, announcing all that had been decreed by Herod ;with the governor and the high priest. Whereupon Jesus rejoiced in spirit, saying: 'Blessed be your holy name, O Lord, because you have not separated me from the number of your servants that have been persecuted by the world and slain. I thank you, my God, because I have fulfilled your work.' And turning to Judas, he said to him: 'Friend, wherefore do you tarry? My time is near, wherefore go and do that which you must do."
The disciples thought that Jesus was sending Judas to buy something for the day of the Passover;: but Jesus knew that Judas was betraying him, wherefore, desiring to depart from the world, he so spoke. Judas answered: 'Lord, suffer me to eat, and I will go.' 'Let us eat,' said Jesus, 'for I have greatly desired to eat this lamb before I am parted from you.'
And having arisen, he took a towel and girded his loins, and having put water in a basin, he set himself to wash his disciples' feet. Beginning from Judas, Jesus came to Peter. Said Peter;: 'Lord, would you wash my feet?' Jesus answered: 'That which I do you know not now, but you shall know hereafter.' Peter answered: 'You shall never wash my feet. Then Jesus rose up, and said: 'Neither shall you come in my company on the day of judgment.' Peter answered: 'Wash not only my feet, Lord, but my hands and my head.'
When the disciples were washed and were seated at table to eat, Jesus said: 'I have washed you, yet are you not all clean, for as much as all the water of the sea will not wash him that believes me not.' This said Jesus, because he knew who was betraying him. The disciples were sad at these words, when Jesus said again: 'Truly I say to you, that one of you shall betray me, insomuch that I shall be sold like a sheep; but woe to him, for he shall fulfil all that our father David said of such an one, that "he shall fall into the pit which he had prepared for others." '
Whereupon the disciples looked one upon another, saying with sorrow: 'Who shall be the traitor?' Judas then said: 'Shall it be I, O Master?' Jesus answered: 'You have told me who it shall be that shall betray me.' And the eleven apostles heard it not. When the lamb was eaten, the devil came upon the back of Judas;, and he went forth from the house, Jesus saying to him again: 'Do quickly that which you must do.'
Judas Betrays
Having gone forth from the house, Jesus retired into the garden to pray, according as his custom was to pray, bowing his knees an hundred times and prostrating himself upon his face. Judas, accordingly, knowing the place where Jesus was with his disciples, went to the high priest, and said: "If you will give me what was promised, this night will I give into your hand Jesus whom you seek; for he is alone with eleven companions." The high priest answered: "How much do you seek?" Judas said, "Thirty pieces of gold."
Then straightway the high priest counted to him the money, and sent a Pharisee to the governor to fetch soldiers, and to Herod, and they gave a legion of them, because they feared the people; wherefore they took their arms, and with torches and lanterns upon staves went out of Jerusalem.
Divine Rescue Of Jesus
When the soldiers with Judas drew near to the place where Jesus was, Jesus heard the approach of many people, wherefore in fear he withdrew into the house. And the eleven were sleeping. Then God, seeing the danger of his servant, commanded Gabriel;, Michael;, Rafael;, and Uriel, his ministers, to take Jesus out of the world. The holy angels came and took Jesus out by the window that looks toward the South. They bare him and placed him in the third heaven in the company of angels blessing God for evermore.
Judas Transformed
Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'
And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil.
Judas Scourged and Mocked
The soldiers took Judas ;and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: 'Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of Israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.' Judas answered: 'Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth;, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!'
Then the soldiers lost their patience, and with blows and kicks they began to flout Judas, and they led him with fury into Jerusalem. John ;and Peter ;followed the soldiers afar off; and they affirmed to him who writes that they saw all the examination that was made of Judas by the high priest, and by the council of the Pharisees, who were assembled to put Jesus to death. Whereupon Judas spoke many words of madness, insomuch that every one was filled with laughter, believing that he was really Jesus, and that for fear of death he was feigning madness. Whereupon the scribes bound his eyes with a bandage, and mocking him said: 'Jesus, prophet of the Nazarenes ;(for so they called them who believed in Jesus), 'tell us, who was it that smote you?' And they buffeted him and spat in his face.
When it was morning there assembled the great council of scribes and elders of the people; and the high priest with the Pharisees sought false witness against Judas, believing him to be Jesus: and they found not that which they sought. And why say I that the chief priests believed Judas to be Jesus? No all the disciples, with him who writes, believed it; and more, the poor Virgin mother of Jesus, with his kinsfolk and friends, believed it, insomuch that the sorrow of every one was incredible.
As God lives, he who writes forgot all that Jesus had said: how that he should be taken up from the world, and that he should suffer in a third person, and that he should not die until near the end of the world. Wherefore he went with the mother of Jesus and with John to the cross. The high priest caused Judas ;to be brought before him bound, and asked him of his disciples and his doctrine. Whereupon Judas, as though beside himself, answered nothing to the point. The high priest then adjured him by the living God of Israel that he would tell him the truth.
Judas answered: 'I have told you that I am Judas Iscariot, who promised to give into your hands Jesus the Nazarene; and you, by what are I know not, are beside yourselves, for you will have it by every means that I am Jesus.' The high priest answered: 'O perverse seducer, you have deceived all Israel, beginning from Galilee ;even to Jerusalem here, with your doctrine and false miracles: and now think you to flee the merited punishment that befits you by feigning to be mad?
As God lives,' you shall not escape it!' And having said this he commanded his servants to smite him with buffetings and kicks, so that his understanding might come back into his head. The derision which he then suffered at the hands of the high priest's servants is past belief. For they zealously devised new inventions to give pleasure to the council. So they attired him as a juggler, and so treated him with hands and feet that it would have moved the very Canaanites to compassion if they had beheld that sight. But the chief priests and Pharisees and elders of the people had their hearts so exasperated against Jesus that, believing Judas to be really Jesus, they took delight in seeing him so treated.
Afterwards they led him bound to the governor, who secretly loved Jesus. Whereupon he, thinking that Judas was Jesus, made him enter into his chamber, and spoke to him, asking him for what cause the chief priests and the people had given him into his hands. Judas answered: 'If I tell you the truth, you will not believe me; for perhaps you are deceived as the (chief) priests and the Pharisees are deceived.'
The governor answered (thinking that he wished to speak concerning the Law): 'Now know you not that I am not a Jew? but the (chief) priests and the elders of your people have given you into my hand; wherefore tell us the truth, wherefore I may do what is just. For I have power to set you free and to put you to death.' Judas answered: 'Sir, believe me, if you put me to death, you shall do a great wrong, for you shall slay an innocent person; seeing that I am Judas ;Iscariot, and not Jesus, who is a magician, and by his are has so transformed me.'
When he heard this the governor marvelled greatly, so that he sought to set him at liberty. The governor therefore went out, and smiling said: 'In the one case, at least, this man is not worthy of death, but rather of compassion.' 'This man says,' said the governor, 'that he is not Jesus, but a certain Judas who guided the soldiery to take Jesus, and he says that Jesus the Galilean has by his are magic so transformed him. Wherefore, if this be true, it were a great wrong to kill him, seeing that he were innocent. But if he is Jesus and denies that he is, assuredly he has lost his understanding, and it were impious to slay a madman.'
Then the chief priests and elders of the people, with the scribes and Pharisees, cried out with shouts, saying: 'He is Jesus of Nazareth;, for we know him; for if he were not the malefactor we would not have given him into your hands. Nor is he mad; but rather malignant, for with this device he seeks to escape from our hands, and the sedition that he would stir up if he should escape would be worse than the former.' Pilate (of such was the governor's name), in order to rid himself of such a case, said: 'He is a Galilean, and Herod is king of Galilee: wherefore it pertains not to me to judge such a case, so take you him to Herod.'
Accordingly they led Judas to Herod, who of a long time had desired that Jesus should go to his house. But Jesus had never been willing to go to his house, because Herod was a Gentile, and adored the false and lying gods, living after the manner of the unclean Gentiles. Now when Judas had been led thither, Herod asked him of many things, to which Judas gave answers not to the purpose, denying that he was Jesus. Then Herod mocked him, with all his court, and caused him to be clad in white as the fools are clad;, and sent him back to Pilate, saying to him, 'Do not fail in justice to the people of Israel!' * And this Herod wrote, because the chief priests and scribes and the Pharisees had given him a good quantity of money. The governor having heard that this was so from a servant of Herod, in order that he also might gain some money, feigned that he desired to set Judas at liberty.
Whereupon he caused him to be scourged by his slaves, who were paid by the scribes to slay him under the scourges. But God, who had decreed the issue, reserved Judas for the cross, in order that he might suffer that horrible death to which he had sold another. He did not suffer Judas to die under the scourges, notwithstanding that the soldiers scourged him so grievously that his body rained blood. Thereupon, in mockery they clad him in an old purple garment;, saying: 'It is fitting to our new king to clothe him and crown him': so they gathered thorns and made a crown, like those of gold and precious stones which kings wear on their heads. And this crown of thorns they placed upon Judas' head, putting in his hand a reed for sceptre;, and they made him sit in a high place.
And the soldiers came before him, bowing down in mockery, saluting him as King of the Jews. And they held out their hands to receive gifts, such as new kings are accustomed to give; and receiving nothing they smote Judas, saying: 'Now, how are you crowned, foolish king, if you will not pay your soldiers and servants?' *The chief priests with the scribes and Pharisees, seeing that Judas died not by the scourges, and fearing lest Pilate should set him at liberty, made a gift of money to the governor, who having received it gave Judas to the scribes and Pharisees as guilty to death. Whereupon they condemned two robbers with him to the death of the cross.
So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked;, for the greater ignominy. *Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world.
But they that stood firm in the doctrine of Jesus were so encompassed with sorrow, seeing him die who was entirely like to Jesus, that they remembered not what Jesus had said. And so in company with the mother of Jesus they went to Mount Calvary, and were not only present at the death of Judas, weeping continually, but by means of Nicodemus and Joseph of Abarimathia; they obtained from the governor the body of Judas to bury it. Whereupon, they took him down from the cross with such weeping as assuredly no one would believe, and buried him in the new sepulchre of Joseph; having wrapped him up in an hundred pounds of precious ointments.
Judas Crucified
Then returned each man to his house. He who writes, with John and James his brother, went with the mother of Jesus; to Nazareth.
Those disciples who did not fear God went by night [and] stole the body of Judas and hid it, spreading a report that Jesus was risen again; whence great confusion arose. The high priest then commanded, under pain of anathema;, that no one should talk of Jesus of Nazareth;. And so there arose a great persecution, and many were stoned and many beaten, and many banished from the land, because they could not hold their peace on such a matter.
The news reached Nazareth how that Jesus, their fellow citizen, having died on the cross was risen again. Whereupon, he that writes; prayed the mother of Jesus; that she would be pleased to leave off weeping, because her son was risen again. Hearing this, the Virgin Mary, weeping, said: 'Let us go to Jerusalem to find my son. I shall die content when I have seen him.'
Jesus appeareth to his Friends
The Virgin returned to Jerusalem with him who writes, and James and John, on that day on which the decree of the high priest went forth. Whereupon, the Virgin, who feared God, albeit she knew the decree of the high priest to be unjust, commanded those who dwelt with her to forget her son. Then how each one was affected! God who discerns the heart of men knows that between grief at the death of Judas whom we believed to be Jesus our master, and the desire to see him risen again, we, with the mother of Jesus, were consumed.
So the angels that were guardians of Mary ascended to the third heaven;, where Jesus was in the company of angels, and recounted all to him. Wherefore Jesus prayed God that he would give him power to see his mother and his disciples. Then the merciful God commanded his four favourite angels, who are Michael, Gabriel, Rafael;, and Uriel, to bear Jesus into his mother's house, and there keep watch over him for three days continually, suffering him only to be seen by them that believed in his doctrine.
Jesus came, surrounded with splendour, to the room where abode Mary the Virgin with her two sisters, and Martha and Mary Magdalen, and Lazarus, and him who writes, and John and James and Peter. Whereupon, through fear they fell as dead. And Jesus lifted up his mother and the others from the ground, saying: 'Fear not, for I am Jesus; and weep not, for I am alive and not dead.' They remained every one for a long time beside himself at the presence of Jesus, for they altogether believed that Jesus was dead. Then the Virgin, weeping, said: 'Tell me, my son, wherefore God, having given you power to raise the dead. suffered you to die, to the shame of your kinsfolk and friends, and to the shame of your doctrine? For every one that loves you has been as dead.'
Jesus and the Four Angels
Jesus replied, embracing his mother: 'Believe me, mother, for truly I say to you that I have not been dead at all; for God has reserved me till near the end of the world.' And having said this he prayed the four angels that they would manifest themselves, and give testimony how the matter had passed.
Thereupon the angels manifested themselves like four shining suns, insomuch that through fear every one again fell down as dead. Then Jesus gave four linen cloths to the angels that they might cover themselves, in order that they might be seen and heard to speak by his mother and her companions. And having lifted up each one, he comforted them, saying: 'These are the ministers of God: Gabriel, who announces God's secrets; Michael, who fights against God's enemies; Rafael, who receives the souls of them that die; and Uriel, who will call every one to the judgment of God at the last day. Then the four angels narrated to the Virgin how God had sent for Jesus, and had transformed Judas, that he might suffer the punishment to which he had sold another.
Then said he who writes: 'O Master, is it lawful for me to question you now, as it was lawful for me when you dwelt with us?' Jesus answered: 'Ask what you please, Barnabas, and I will answer you.' Then said he who writes: 'O Master, seeing that God is merciful, wherefore has he so tormented us, making us to believe that you were dead? and your mother has so wept for you that she has been near to death; and you, who are an holy one of God, on you has God suffered to fall the calumny that you were slain amongst robbers ;on the Mount Calvary?'
Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell.
And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'
Jesus Chargeth Barnabas to Write
Jesus turned himself to him who writes, and said: "Barnabas, see that by all means you write my gospel concerning all that has happened through my dwelling in the world. And write in a similar manner that which has befallen Judas, in order that the faithful may be undeceived, and every one may believe the truth." Then answered he who writes: "I will do so, if God wills, O Master; but I do not know what happened to Judas, for I did not see it."
Jesus answered: "Here are John and Peter who saw everything, and they will tell you all that has passed." And then Jesus commanded us to call his faithful disciples [so] that they might see him. So James and John called together the seven disciples with Nicodemus and Joseph, and many others of the seventy-two, and they ate with Jesus.
The third day Jesus said: "Go to the Mount of Olives with my mother, for there I will ascend again to heaven, and you will see who shall bear me up." So they all went there except twenty-five of the seventy-two disciples, who for fear had fled to Damascus. And as they all stood in prayer, at midday Jesus came with a great multitude of angels who were praising God: and the splendour of his face made them greatly afraid and they fell with their faces to the ground. But Jesus lifted them up, comforting them, and saying: "Do not be afraid, I am your master."
And he reproved many who believed that he had died and risen again, saying: "Do you hold me and God for liars? I said to you that God has granted to me to live almost to the end of the world. Truly I say to you, I did not die; it was Judas the traitor. Beware, for Satan will make every effort to deceive you. Be my witnesses in Israel, and throughout the world, of all things that you have heard and seen."
And having said this, he prayed God for the salvation of the faithful, and the conversion of sinners and [then], his prayer ended, he embraced his mother, saying: "Peace be to you, my mother. Rest in God who created you and me." And having said this, he turned to his disciples, saying: "May God's grace and mercy be with you." Then before their eyes the four angels carried him up into heaven.
Jesus Carried Up to Heaven
After Jesus had departed, the disciples scattered through the different parts of Israel and of the world, and the truth, hated of Satan, was persecuted, as it always is, by falsehood. For certain evil men, pretending to be disciples, preached that Jesus died and rose not again. Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached, and yet preach, that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived. But we - as much as I have written - we preach to those that fear God, that they may be saved in the last day of God's Judgment. Amen.
Gospel of Barnabas, ch. 211-22.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 09:41 PM (GMT)]Greetings!
The rather long post above still not answer the question of why Allah is deceiving people, instead of ascending Jesus for all to see.
I have a full copy of the so-called gospel of Barnabas published by A&B Publishers Group with a forward by Iman Muhammad Nu'Man. I find it quite interesting that the publishers do not indicate who performed this recent translation.
However, the anonymous introduction indicates that it is based on a translation of the Latin by "Mr. and Mrs. Ragg" for Clarendon Press in 1907. The introduction states that only a single verse has survived in the original Greek.
I have written elsewhere that there are problems with accepting the authenticity of this gospel. As I read through it, I have made hand written notes on almost every page of historical inaccuracies, anachronisms (putting medieval ideas into the mouths of first century people), and misquotes of Biblical passages, or quotes of passages written long after the New Testament. For some more info on this obvious forgery, go to the folowing site:
http://answering-islam.org/Barnabas/
You'll have to do better than that to prove the crucifiction did not happen to Jesus. More importantly, I need to understand why Allah deceived people.
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Hi Jcecil...
well... u ask hard questions... I'll answer to the best of my knowledge....
I do not take insults unless u mean it to be one... or u are making fun of my faith...and since ur doing neither... i am not insulted... after all this is why we have this forum... for learning.
Now why Allah did what He did..? Who are we to question the lord?? Muslims believe that Allah has knowledge that we do not have and thus there must be a wisdom that we can't see.
But I believe in the Quraan it says, when one is proud and refuses to worship God, then his punishment is that Allah will make him increase in sins until he dies so that his punishment will be more... because he knew the truth, but refused out of pride and wish to run away from the truth.
So, if Jesus was ascended in front of people.... this would have been another miracle right?? Would the disbelievers believe?? No. Jesus himself had other miracles, bringing back the dead to life, making birds (statues) come to life, heal the sick...etc... did these miracles make them believe?? No.
So if Jesus was descended, I do not believe this would have made a difference would it?
So there is really nothing else to prove... when Jesus delivered his message... the ones who were to believe, believed, the disbelievers disbelieved. That was that. No matter how many more miracles he brought forth.. it wouldn't make a difference....
Now why make them kill innocent man.... Allah knows best.. maybe that true follower of Jesus .. if he lived, he'd disbelieve?? Maybe Allah wanted him to die on the true religion of Jesus and not on wrong faith?? That would be a mercy to him!
Maybe this was a test for him.... to expiate his sins and forgive him.
Besides, the killing would be an honour... think of it.. if Jesus himself told you... if you die, you will be with me in heavens... I ask you... seriously, honestly... wouldn't you die!!!! If the prophet or even Jesus himself tell me to do anything to get to heavens... i'll do it... with no hesitation... with no care for what it will bring forth!
The killing i am sure was not to save Jesus, if Allah wanted... he could have just brought jesus to the sky... ppl will think he disappeared!!! Was Allah not able to do so? Sure he is able to do so. But he has a wisom beyond our understanding...one that we might be told of when Jesus comes back to tell us the truth once again.
"And it still seems unfair that Jesus' followers really thought Jesus died on the cross, and are somehow at fault for believing a deception that Allah initiated...."
I have explained to you... Jesus himself told them he will be raised to the sky and someone else will be killed.. so they should have known!! Why did they got misguided later on?? Maybe its the devil introducing ideas??? Maybe its people who try to make the religion more "superior" to other beliefs!!
I know of "so called muslims" who claim weird things to make islam sounds so cool or so whatever... personally i find islam good the way it is..i love it the way it is... i do not think we need their "favours" to make it nice or cool... what if these early followers of Jesus thought.. if we say he was God then ppl will believe. Maybe if we said that he's the son... ppl will believe! Afterall there was one sect that stayed on true monotheism... there are christians even today who believe Jesus is a prophet... (am i right??)
As a Muslim... once you see the truth of islam.. that's it. We do not question the will of Allah... in the quraan it says: "O you who believe, do not ask about things that if u were told about it will only harm you" (meaning not exact). So... once we see the truth of islam, for every command we are told, our reaction is: We heard and we shall obey.
When the prophet peace be upon him told us of the story of Jesus, we say, we heard it and shall believe it!
You must know, our human mind is so limited we cannot understand the abilities of God, we cannot understand how God thinks or plans! But.. we all make plans.. and Allah has his own plans.. and Allah is the best of planners!
I shall find u proof that crucifiction never happened... to me it just seems logical... we are all responsible for our sins.... so Jesus cannot take our sins.. and why Jesus??? I mean if Adam sinned? shouldn't he be punished... i mean one of the characteristics of God is that he is just!! Where is justice if i punish you for someone else's sin! I personally see no justice!! If Jesus is not here to forgive our sins... then he is here to show us the way... if he was here for a good cause, sent by God to show us the way... why would god abandon his beloved prophet and kill him in such a way!!
You might say well why kill that other man.... I don't know!
Regarding the crusification... The best person whom i have seen and whom have actually discussed these issues after deep studying and understanding (I believe he was a christian?? I'm not sure) is Ahmad Dedaat... here are some of his links... take the time to read it.. with an open heart... I cannot guide you.... only Allah guides whom ever he wishes... ALlah only guides those who come to him with an open heart... seeking God is the way... seeking truth...
I truly believe.. if you knock at the door of God with sincerity.. saying: "O God, whomever you are, guide me to you... show me the way to you... take my hand to you.. so that i might never live except to serve you". If you say this.. with deep sincerity... then I will say... rest assured, God will never leave you!
here are the links:
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Crucify.htm
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Debate.htm
As for general issues on islam and christianity.. this is the best site i have come across so far: http://sultan.org/ scroll down a bit to see the section on islam and christianity.
i am not trying to convert you... i believe that everyone must search for the truth.. for only when we put the effort to see and find truth, then will Allah guide us to truth...
I have my own experience.. i was born a "muslim" (by name) and now when i look back at my life i do not see how i was called one! I thank Allah who has showned me the truth... it was not as easy as it sounds however... i had to search long... it was not easy.. but was good... for now i know how precious is the jewel i have: its called Islam.
I studied the bible, considered to be a christian before i even open the quraan.... the bible made me read the quraan.... then quraan opened my eyes... just the night before i started this whole search... i sat on my knees, and i cried, from all my heart to God, I said... PLEASE!! Either take my soul... or guide me to truth... I guess God decided I shall live...and see the beauty of his mercy day after day.
I can keep on writing but this is way off topic... keep searching... you will see the truth if u search for it with a sincere heart! It might be easier to stick to what our parents, friends, spouces, etc, believe in... but it might not be the truth... and this is where we have to make decisions... to we live for god, or live for people!
the choice is yours!
sincerily,
Rasha
Salaam Jalaal,
How is it that you can quote Jesus out of the Bible ("lost sheep of Isreal") but not believe the rest of it? How do you know those are Jesus' words and not a forgery like the rest?
And G O Barnabas...can you give one good reason why this ms should be trusted? You quoted Osama Abdallah complaining that the NT was written hundreds of years after Jesus (though it wasn't) yet the earliest ms of Barnabas found or recorded is from the 15th century, that's almost 1500 years!
Here are some quick evidence from just what you quoted that give Barnabas suspect. (When I say Barnabas, I mean the writer, not the first century man.)
Mary called "Virgin." This is common among Catholics but not from Jesus' time. (Mary wasn't a virgin any more at the time Jesus taught.) If pseudo-Barnabas was a medieval Eurpean, he'd be likely to call Mary "Virgin" to fit in with everyone else.
Lord God, God of Abraham;, God of Ishmael ;and Isaac. Ishmael is never included in the common expression, but a Muslim writer would include him. Likewise, Jacob is never excluded in this line except here.
Barnabas said Jesus was betrayed on the main Passover night, when the lamb is eaten. Judas is then killed the next day. The author must know nothing about Judaism, for Jews take a Sabbath after the Passover meal! Thus, they would not do any work, especially put on trial and kill a man! This scene is impossible.
Jesus prostrates. It was not common practise for Jews to prostrate (though it happened occaisonally) but it would be for pseudo-Barnabas and his Jesus.
Raphael? Raphael and Uriel are an angels in the book of Tobit which was rejected by the Jews for its authenticity at Jesus' time. However, Barnabas with a Catholic background would respect them.
Bad chronology. Jesus is praying, but hearing the guards come, he retreats and ascends to heaven. Judas, leading the soldiers, goes into the house to sleep. Why does he sleep? Why do the guards wait outside the house to arrest Jesus? Don't they realize Jesus might see them and get away? Here's why:
In order to make his story work best, Barnabas needs Judas' body to be in a place where it can be transformed to look like Jesus and get the two mixed up. After all, if Judas just came in the house, the soldiers would have no one to arrest because Jesus was already ascended. Being a writer myself, I sympathize with Barnabas' problem, but it doesn't make his book believable.
Naked John. Why does Barnabas include John running from the guard naked? A variation of this event is done in Mark's gospel, but the naked man isn't named. It's implied the man is Mark, just so that Mark could be in his book, but reason does Barnabas have?
Anathema? The Catholic church began declaring anathema, that is, d*mnation. Again, we see Barnabas is Catholic, not Jewish.
Dying for the invisible. Barnabas says many believed Jesus' ressurection, but why? Why a dead corpse anyone? And why inspire so greatly that they would die for it?
Dying for a joke? Why did people steal Judas' corpse? Barnabas says they didn't fear Allah, so they weren't true followers of Jesus. Why then did risk their lives?
I've only gone through 11 chapters out of over 200 and there are great mistakes. If I looked at the excerpt with more than a passing glance as I have, or checked some other anti GOB resource there might be more found. But this is enough. Clearly GOB is a fraud and no honest Muslim should use it. I hope you'll include yourself in them.
JBJ
Hi Dr Quaisar,
Haven't heard from you in a while. I quite agree that Allah "wills" everything to happen in one sense. However, would you say Allah wills innocents to die and starve? If not, then we can agree there are different "levels" of what Allah allows. On one end He allows innocents to suffer for the sake of a greater good, on the other end he wants those who seek Him to be rewarded.
So which is it for the ayah? Did Allah make special actions so that "it appeared so to them" or was it the result of others. You could put it: did Allah make it happen directly or indirectly? But I'm only speaking of the translation of it, not so much the interpretation - though I'm interested in that too. Thanks, and salaam,
JBJ
:)
i think this is going now where... u guys are going in circles!! I think this is very simple! Allah just decided, who are we to question GOD??
its simple.. jesus was raised! That's it.
I'm not questioning Allah at all, just the translation.
Im really not gonna spend more time about this conversation because we are discussing about some scientifical established facts which are neglected by you and your comrades. And I personally dont care a d*mn about your accusations and arrogance.
Read and shiver:
http://www.aliasoft.com/htdocs/DCForumID4/160.html#4
Traditionally, the scrolls are viewed as the work of an ascetic Jewish sect, the Essenes, who lived in a monastery near the caves between about 200 B.C. and 100 A.D.
``But there is a school of thought that says that some of these scrolls - the Habakkuk in particular - refer to some Christian leader, maybe Christ or John the Baptist,'' said UA researcher A.J. Timothy Jull.
A commentary on the first two chapters of the biblical Book of Habakkuk was one of the 18 texts dated at the UA lab. The results, announced yesterday in Tucson and Jerusalem, have been submitted for publication in the journal Atiqot and elsewhere.
``The fact that this particular scroll (the Habakkuk commentary) dates to before the Christian era tends to eliminate the possibility that a follower of Christ could have written it,'' Jull said yesterday.
There is a 95 percent probability that the parchment from the Habakkuk commentary dates to between 150 B.C. and 5 B.C., Jull said.
>You'll have to do better than that to prove the crucifiction
>did not happen to Jesus. More importantly, I need to
>understand why Allah deceived people.
>
>Peace and Blessings!
>jcecil3
What a joker.
I dont have to do anything because I dont have to prove anything. If you say that something is not right than you have the burden to prove to opposite otherwise you are charged with contumely.
well haven't we all agreed, english translations are not 100% accurate!! We tried to explain the original text for you as simply as we can. U don't like the translation, learn arabic and read it. As a matter of fact, there is a group which i am working at which teaches Arabic online... a word a day or something like that. If you are interesed, i'll add ur email. then u'll learn arabic words, what's left is how to read arabic, then u can read quraan on ur own.
= )
that's the only solution i think
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 31-03-02 AT 08:44 PM (GMT)]Jalaal,
Why do you continue to rely on that article? Haven't you seen enough to show he's wrong? Has there been a single point in that chapter 7 that wasn't disproven?
Yes, the objector has to give the evidence. I've given evidence showing that author doesn't know what he's doing. Now you're obligated to give the proof that what I said is wrong. I've proved from just a tiny portion of GOB that false. If you still believe GOB is true, it is your burden to prove how my objections are unwarranted. For example: why did the Jews put Judas to death on the Sabbath? Why did Judas take a nap while his soldiers stood behind the walls waiting for him?
No one who trusts in lies can know Truth. You must either follow truth or lies, but you cannot follow both. A man cannot serve too masters. He will either hate one, and love the other, or hate the one and love the other.
JBJ
Yes, no translation can be perfect. It isn't that I don't like one translation or another, I can only know as much of Arabic as speakers tell me. The topic is going much deeper than I first intended. But like I said to Dr Qaisar, I only want to know:
Was the appearance a special act of Allah, like creating the earth? Or did he merely approve of it, like when Jesus raised the dead by His permission?
I'm only wondering.
JBJ
ok i don't know if i understand the question... are u asking... was the idea from Jesus himself and God just approved it? or was it the will of god??
if this is what u are asking.... then i believe it is what God planned. Jesus simply follows the command of Allah... and thus when people rejected him, he would have simply kept on preaching.
= )
Netcurtains
31-03-2002, 20:52
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 31-03-02 AT 09:15 PM (GMT)]"M.A. Rahim is wrong, which is proven by the fact that he cannot refer to where in Iranaeus's work he quotes The Gospel of Barnabas. Iranaeus did not quote from The Gospel of Barnabas and neither did any other Early Church Fathers. Thus there is no evidence that the early church used this book. "
There is no Dead Sea version of the Gospel of Barnabus.
Can anyone tell me why some islamic people deliberately lie to denounce the risen Christ - surely this is the reverse of true religion - religion is "truth" - even if it hurts? Doesn't this mean when 'muslims' lie about our religion we cannot trust them to tell the truth about their own? Can someone explain this "lying" stuff to me? It appears to be the same in the Islamic press - so much nonsense.
Am I missing something important? Is it lying or is it 'allowable deception' - as in warfare? Tell the "silly" christians something that will persuade them to become muslims - it doesn't matter if its total nonsense? This "lying" aspect to religion (perhaps all religion?) is fascinating.
Cheers Netty.
Ps - this is not me being deliberately insulting - this is me telling you all my HONEST opinion. I strongly believe there are aspects to what I read here that appear to me to be bear faced lies - almost as if the liars are laughing at my naivity.
Nut Curatins... I do not know what are u talking about... So if someone lied about Christianity what do we have to do with it anyways??? Did I lie about christianity??? Alhamdulillah i don't think i did.
So... what are u making a fuzz about??? What we explain here is our best understanding... we are not scholars...but merely trying our best to communicate our beliefs!!!! So if it is part of my belief that Christians are liers... what does this have to do with u... i can believe what i want... don't christians believe their own things??
Muslims believe Jesus was raised and not killed... what does this have to do with lies or anything...its a fact of something written in our book and taught by our messenger... i do not see what ur talking about!
p.s. don't mean to insult.. just my HONEST opinion!
Netcurtains
31-03-2002, 21:32
Hi,
I'm not getting at you or your belief. I'm getting at someone using a book called Gospel Of Barnabus to back up your belief. And then claiming that early christians used this book and that it has something to do with the dead sea scrolls. I'm sure christians lie as well (I know I do) but I don't expect to get lies on a religious BB.
Surely we should be beyond this?
ok...
I do not know about this Gospel.... I personally have read several bibles (different versions) and... I know it has (to me) confirmed my belief... so.. I do not think we need such a book to back up our beliefs!
Also.... u said the person is lying etc... what if the person is unaware that this gospel is not accepted by many christians???? I think we could have heard an opinion more nicely put like... we don't use that.
I know when we discussed with Joe about submitters... he has a quraan written by some weirdos.... we simply tell him its not reliable! No one got to him saying lies etc....
:) sorry do'nt mean to lecture you... but ur post seemed like an attack on all muslims....saying we are lyers or something...sorry i misunderstood!
Netcurtains
31-03-2002, 21:58
Hi,
Look on BBC now there is a program about Egypt and the Bible. It points out many of the Jewish Torah bible stories have earlier Egypian ones. Eg Isis placed her child in a reed boat - a kind of Moses.
There is also the concept of the eternal soul and heaven and hell.
The "one" god religion was also 'first' introduced in Egypt.
Interesting stuff - unlike Barnabus - There is plenty of stuff that knocks Christianity, why bother lying?
All this knocks my religion but I willing to investigate it.
Well... I am sure people before Jesus came knew about God! Muslims believe that All prophets which came had the same message... so obviously the would have same beliefs and same faith!
Netcurtains
31-03-2002, 22:11
Hi,
sorry - I did go too far. I apologise. I withdraw the above comment.
However lying is an impression I get. But I forget that I'm from a different culture and have read different books. What is obviously incorrect (scientifically/historically) to me might not be to others. You know books like: "Chariots of the Gods"? its about aliens. We all know its a joke - it should be the same for "the gospel of barnabus". I suspect people do get fooled - it might also be true for books about aliens. I expect too much. I am in my forties and a bit worldly wise - I forget that many who write here are in their twenties. There are many christians who foolishly believe all sorts of nonsense (no religion is immune).
"The jews were rebellious, they killed every prophet that came to them."
Who, exactly, did they kill? I know they killed *some* prophets, but all of them? Moses? David? Solomon? Amos? Jeremiah? Isaiah? Who, exactly, did they kill besides Jesus?
:)
are we picking on words....ok ... they killed almost all the prophets... :)
I do not know much of the history.... I am still new afterall to all islamic teachings so it will take me time to study all that...and i personally did not think history should come first... I believe i should study the teachings before the history and the many battles and who killed who. So maybe a more knowledgable brother or sister can tell u who they did kill!
I know in the Quraan it mentioned that they killed prophets... whether all or some.. i am not sure.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-04-02 AT 03:07 PM (GMT)]Greetings All!
I honestly don't wish to go 'round and 'round about the authenticity or falsehood of the gospel of Barnabas. I think it's a late medieval forgery, but so what?
My original question to the Muslims is why does Allah practice deception by having everyone believe that Jesus was crucified?
According to your own arguments, the faithful followers of Jesus, as well as unfaithful Jews and Romans -- everyone except a handful of insiders seemed to believe he died on the cross. This implies that Allah practiced deliberate deception, yet Allah cannot lie. Furthermore, Allah, who knows all, had to know that by making Jesus appear to die, that well intentioned people would come to the conclusion that he was resurrected! Why did Allah choose not to ascend Jesus in front of everyone to display his power? Why did Allah appear to lie to the human race?
Indeed, the great lengths gone to try to simply prove that it did happen that Allah made someone look like Jesus only serve as proof to me that the majority consensus of eyewitnesses (believer and non-believer alike) was that Jesus was crucified! The Islamic answer (whether true or not) is simply that Allah made it appear to be Jesus when it really wasn't. So why did Allah do this?
In other words, I don't care whether it actually occurred that way. Let's assume Muslims are correct. Assuming Allah did change someone's appearence to look Jesus, why do you believe that Allah did this? What were we supposed to learn from this?
Peace and blessings!
jcecil3
I suggest u read my answers to ur questinos above. Sorry dont feel like replying when ur saying it as an attack on our faith... people also asked exact same questions u asked...but i think they said it in a better way!
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 02-04-02 AT 02:57 AM (GMT)]Greetings Rasha,
I went back and re-read your answers above, and I still don't see the answer to my question. I apologize if I'm sounding impatient and insulting in my tone. That is not my intent.
You seem to be answering the question of how you know that Allah made someone look like Jesus on the cross. I am not asking how you know. I am asking why did Allah decieve people?
You seemed to a take brief stab at an answer the first time I asked it, though you focused more on why it was fair to the disciples. Then you took another stab with Netty, by saying Jesus just obeyed Allah, and we just have to take Allah at his word. That's still a bit weak as an answer. I read the arguments by Deedat, but I don't see the question addressed by him at all. Instead, he tries to argue why the Bible is not as reliable, which has nothing to do with the issue. I believe there must be an answer to such an obvious question...
Let me re-summarize as though I were new convert:
Question asked by new Muslim: How do we know that Jesus did not die on the cross?
Answer given to new Muslim: The Qur'an is trustworthy and it says so. The Hadith (sunnah) also say so. And the gospel of Barnabas seems to offer corraborating evidence.
Follow up question asked by new Muslim: I thought Allah never lies. Why did Allah deceive everyone into believing Jesus died on the cross?
Answer given to new Muslim: We know that Allah would never decieve the true believers. Regarding the disbelievers, we know Allah deceived them because the Qur'an says he did and who are you to question Allah or the Qur'an?
Can't you see that this latter answer is weak as an answer to the question?
I'm not trying to ask whether it is true or not that Allah made someone look like Jesus. I'm trying to say that even if I were a Hindu or something, and had never read the Bible, never believed Jesus was crucified, and even believed in the gospel of Barnabas because it was the only gospel I had ever read, I would still want to know why Allah, who never lies, deceived some people? I would want to know how I know that I am not one of those being deceived? I would want to know what I'm supposed to learn from this deception practiced by Allah himself (i.e. -- is lying morally good in certain circumstances)? I would want to know why Allah allows unbelievers to justify their unbelief, since they believed something he made them believe?
If you really feel that you answered this question, please re-phrase your answer, because I did not understand the answer you already provided. Or if another Muslim feels they can answer the question more adequately, please chime in...
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Then said he who writes: 'O Master, is it lawful for me to question you now, as it was lawful for me when you dwelt with us?' Jesus answered: 'Ask what you please, Barnabas, and I will answer you.'
Then said he who writes: 'O Master, seeing that God is merciful, wherefore has he so tormented us, making us to believe that you were dead? and your mother has so wept for you that she has been near to death; and you, who are an holy one of God, on you has God suffered to fall the calumny that you were slain amongst robbers ;on the Mount Calvary?'
Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell.
And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'
Jesus turned himself to him who writes, and said: "Barnabas, see that by all means you write my gospel concerning all that has happened through my dwelling in the world. And write in a similar manner that which has befallen Judas, in order that the faithful may be undeceived, and every one may believe the truth." Then answered he who writes: "I will do so, if God wills, O Master; but I do not know what happened to Judas, for I did not see it."
Jesus answered: "Here are John and Peter who saw everything, and they will tell you all that has passed." And then Jesus commanded us to call his faithful disciples [so] that they might see him. So James and John called together the seven disciples with Nicodemus and Joseph, and many others of the seventy-two, and they ate with Jesus.
wow! That's from a bible???!!
SubhanaAllah! I have never heard of this... what bible is that?
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 02-04-02 AT 10:59 PM (GMT)]Greetings!
>
>Then said he who writes: 'O Master, seeing that God is
>merciful, wherefore has he so tormented us, making us to
>believe that you were dead? and your mother has so wept for
>you that she has been near to death; and you, who are an
>holy one of God, on you has God suffered to fall the calumny
>that you were slain amongst robbers ;on the Mount Calvary?'
>
>Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin,
>however small it be, God punishes with great punishment,
>seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my
>mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me
>a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to
>punish this love with the present grief, in order that it
>may not be punished in the flames of hell.
>
>And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have
>called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be
>not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed
>that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of
>Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the
>cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of
>Muhammad, the Messenger of God, who, when he shall come,
>shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's
>Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord
>our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory
>without end.'
>
Well, I've already written that I do not trust this gospel of Barnabas and why I don't trust it. I've also written elsewhere that I don't understand the logic that would deny the 8 or more witness accounts in the NT in favor of Barnabas (who by the author's own testimony wasn't there).
But for the sake of trying to understand what you are saying, I will assume momentarily that the gospel of Barnabas is true.
Assuming this explanation from Barnabas is true, the logic of the verses cited seems to say that all who mourn over what they believe to be the death of Jesus are forgiven their sins. The "punishment" for their sins is the act of mourning.
Well, it has been my experience as a Christian that almost every Good Friday, I am moved to tears as I contemplate what I believe Jesus did on the cross. And since I never read the Qur'an in full prior to September 11, I was saved from my sins by this act mourning. Right?
Therefore, it would better for Muslims to leave Christians in ignorance of the Qur'an, so that Allah's deception can continue to save them. Right?
I'm sorry. I know that the way I am phrasing this question does not sound right...maybe it sounds too arrogant and insulting.
To be honest, when I read the entire Qur'an the first time after Sept 11, it was this verse more than any other verse that left me believing that Mohammed is not a true prophet.
The statement to the People of the Book to stop saying three did not really bother me (after all, if anyone really believed there are 3 separate gods, they are mistaken in their interpretation of the NT and Trinitarian theology). Other questions I raised prior to today were just intellectual curiosities. I have some problems with verses that seem to incite violence, but Muslims seem to be generally peaceful and many seem to have fairly reasonable answers for most of these verses. The belief in the Trinity within the One God and so forth rest entirely on the crucifixion and resurrection events. So if Jesus did not die on the cross, Christianity is not true. On the other hand, if Jesus did die on the cross, the Qur'an appears not to be infallible.
Surah 4.157 is the single verse that makes the entire notion that Mohammed is a true prophet of God in line with the Old Testament prophets difficult for me to me accept. This is THE key stumbling block for me. But it's not just the question of how we know whether the verse is true or not that I find problematic. It's the question of what the verse says about Allah that I find difficult to understand. It would make more sense if the verse said that Satan made someone appear like Jesus, but for Allah to create the deception that would last over 2,000 years and fool over a billion people, just seems wicked of Allah.
So, while my tone may not convey proper humility, I am trying to give to expression that this verse really needs a good explanation -- a better one than has provided so far. Can't you find something in your hadith, another verse of the Qur'an, or from a sheik you know, or somewhere in reason that explains why Allah would lie a little better than this?
Peace!
jcecil3
vancouver
02-04-2002, 16:18
Hello jcecil3
Yes, I agree with you the main point of the Messiah was that he had to die. Without his dying there would have been no hope for any of mankind. Even Abraham's resurrection depended on Christ faithfully giving up his earthly life in sacrifice. Anyone saying he did not die is misrepresenting God and his promise at Genesis 3:15 and calling God into question.
Greetings
vancouver
Jalaal,
Again, why are using GOB? It's logically false, the storyline of it is impossible. It's looks like you're accepting it based on blind faith, that you accept it because you want it to be true. Isn't this deceptive to yourself? Please respond,
JBJ
vancouver
02-04-2002, 16:53
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 02-04-02 AT 05:00 PM (GMT)]Greetings
I can see why none of this rubbish by so called Barnabas was cannonised. There are no flames in hell(common grave of mankind-no conscious feelings at all). God thankfully forgives the sin caused by human imperfection. The only way everlasting relief can be obtained from sin is the sacrifice of the Messiah although this by no means is any excuse for sin.
All the best
vancouver
>
>I don't know how to word this question in a way that might
>not sound insulting. Please understand that my intent is not
>to insult your faith. Rather, I want to understand --
>because this is a key difference of opinion between Muslims
>and Christians (whether Jesus died on the cross or not).
>
>Can you tell me why Allah played this elaborate hoax of
>making anyone believe that Jesus was crucified?
>
>I mean, if Allah never lies, why didn't he just ascend Jesus
>in front of everyone so that everyone would know that he was
>a true prophet and that they were wrong?
>
>It seems that the Qur'an is implying that Allah practiced
>deception and had an innocent man killed in the process so
>that he could save Jesus, and he performed this deception in
>such a way that the evil-doers who wanted to kill Jesus did
>not know they were wrong to want to kill him. And it still
>seems unfair that Jesus' followers really thought
>Jesus died on the cross, and are somehow at fault for
>believing a deception that Allah initiated....
>
Hello,
I'll try to help out a bit. But if you have further questions please ask and I'll answer the best I can.
1. There is nothing in the Qur'an that states that a man who looked like jesus pbuh was substituted and killed in his place. This is based on an interpretation, rather than Qur'an itself. There have been several explanations of what is meant by "it appeared to them" One of several explanations is that a man who looked like Jesus pbuh was substituted, and this is the one taken by Ibn Kathir and those who translated the Qur'an gave this interpretation, not that it is in the text.
What can be concluded w/ no differences is that in some way it was made to appear to those who were out to kill him that they suceeded. Why? to protect Jesus pbuh and allow him the time to finish his prophetic mission. It simply was not the time for Jesus pbuh to die, no matter how hard the corrupted jews who wanted to off him tried to do away with him. This was showing them God is a better planner than they. That even though the wicked plan against God.. you can't come over God in such a manner The believers of course would believe because their hearts where open to truth, and those without faith would reject.
A lie?? I wouldn't go that far. where they decieved into thinking one thing verses another.. yes.
Your question, why didn't Allah just cause him to ascend in front of everyone? this is like the pagan mekkans who asked why God didn't send and Angel to bring he message of Qur'an. God wants people to choose him out of 'belief' rather than undeniable miracles. Even the miracles that believers accept are not so in your fast that no one can deny it but the delusional. Take for instance the virgin birth, we, believers, accept that. However those who don't attribute foul conduct to Mary.
Interestingly enough, a form of deception was used to save Muhamma pubh and his companion Abu Bakr in the cave as they were fleeing mekkah from the threat of death by the Pagans. A spiders web was woven over the entrance of the cave. this deception caused the pagans to think no one could be in there because the web would have been broken.. this saved their lives.
This can also be said with the case of Moses pbuh, God told his mother to toss him in the river, his sister followed suit and suggested his own mother suckle him. Keeping them close w/out pharoah knowing it.. but protecting Moses pbuh to fulfill his prophetic mission.
Maybe you can think of other such examples w/in the bible.
Within Islamic thought you will also find that Jesus pbuh let his apostles know that he didn't die on the cross. From mary seeing him in the garden saying how he didn't go to his father yet.. to him actually bleeding when he was stabbed while he hung on the cross. dead men don't bleed. As for the deciples believing that he did in fact die, and did so to absolve their sins this is highly debatable. As muslims we believe that they believed no such thing.
I hope that helps.
Just a little question:
You say Isa(as) was crucified and died for the sins of the mankind.
Matthew 15:24 -But he answered and said, I am not sent BUT UNTO the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
How do you explain this verse ?
Second, maybe JBJ will remember this, I posted a while ago a story about Moses(pbuh). He asked God whether he could see him so that his faith will be stronger.
7:143 -When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon Thee."
Then Allah said:
"By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested Himself to the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."
You see, one of the holiest prophets of God asks God to see Him, but he is rejected. So my question is:
How is it possible then that God showed Himself to a disbelieving, ungrateful people on whom Isa(as) was sent to but not to Moses(pbuh)?
Doesnt this sound very ridiculous ?
And last point I'd like to comment is that lets say Isa(as) died voluntarily on the cross for the sins of the mankind.
Then why did he cried on the cross: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34).
vancouver
03-04-2002, 11:49
Greetings JaLaal
No one has ever seen God. It is impossible as the scriptures clearly say. It is the mind of God we need to 'see' and do our utmost to have this 'mind' ourselves.
Jesus began a very important ministry. He only had three and a half years to introduce it. He went specifically to the Israelites but informed his disciples that this work he had started was to be fully completed to the whole world. This was the commission he gave to his followers. Jesus the messiah was born from a line that started with Adam and followed through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob(Israel) and right through the Israelite nation. They had the opportunity to be the ones that would be kings and priests with him in his kingdom. But so few of them listened that others had to be eventually grafted into that ruling class from the gentile nations. So Israel as a nation were abandoned by Jehovah God and he allowed the Romans to destroy their Temple and all their records in Jerusalem in 70 C.E. That is why it is impossible for any Israelite to be able to prove their citenship. It was God's purpose that a great crowd would be subjects of that kingdom and would reside forever on the earth. These were from all nations and tribes of the earth. As it is the rulers of that kingdom are called 'spiritual Israel' made up of fleshly Israel and people of other nations. Not enough fleshly Israelites followed Jesus despite his 'visit' to them. Even in modern times the nation of Israel have hardened their hearts toward God in the majority of them.
So as I said earlier Jesus informed his disciples of the earthwide preaching and teaching work that had to be done.:-
"The Good News Has to Be Preached First"
"Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first."-MARK 13:10.
OF ALL those who claim to be Christian, only Jehovah's Witnesses take the preaching of the good news seriously. They form the only group in which every member feels a personal obligation to approach his neighbor on a regular basis in order to talk to him about God's purposes. Why is this? Because each Witness feels that, as a Christian, he must be a footstep follower of Christ. (1 Peter 2:21) What does this imply?
In the minds of many, Jesus Christ was merely a man who did good deeds. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, and showed love and kindness to those in need. But Jesus did much more. He was first of all a zealous preacher of the good news of God's Kingdom. A few months after his baptism in the river Jordan, Jesus began publicly preaching: "Repent, you people, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Matthew 4:17) Mark's account states: "Jesus went into Galilee, preaching the good news of God and saying: 'The appointed time has been fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near. Be repentant, you people, and have faith in the good news.'"-Mark 1:14, 15.
Jesus called Peter, Andrew, James, and John to follow him, and we read: "Then he went around throughout the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the kingdom and curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity among the people." When the crowds in Galilee tried to detain him, he said: "Also to other cities I must declare the good news of the kingdom of God, because for this I was sent forth." Then he went preaching in the synagogues of Judea.-Matthew 4:18-23; Luke 4:43, 44.
Returning again to Galilee, Jesus "went journeying from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the kingdom of God." (Luke 8:1) He likened his preaching work to harvesting and said: "The harvest is great, but the workers are few. Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest." (Matthew 9:35-38) Even when crowds gave him no rest, "he received them kindly and began to speak to them about the kingdom of God, and he healed those needing a cure."-Luke 9:11.
True, Jesus healed the sick and on occasion fed the hungry. But more than all else, he was busy telling people about the Kingdom of God. And he wanted his followers to do the same. Having trained his apostles, he sent them out two by two to preach, saying: "As you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.'" (Matthew 10:7) Luke states: "He sent them forth to preach the kingdom of God and to heal." (Luke 9:2) To the 70 disciples, Jesus also gave the command to 'cure the sick ones and go on telling them that the kingdom of God has come near.'-Luke 10:9.
Before ascending to heaven, Jesus commissioned his followers to continue the preaching work and even to expand it. He commanded them: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations . . . teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19, 20) Further, he said: "You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth." (Acts 1:8) Thus, both Jesus and his apostles gave first attention to the preaching of the good news of God's Kingdom.
The Kingdom to Be Preached in Our Time
In his prophecy about events to take place at "the conclusion of the system of things," Jesus said: "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:3, 14) Or, as stated at Mark 13:10: "Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first."-See also Revelation 14:6, 7.
In "the last days," the good news of the Kingdom involves more than it did when Jesus was on earth. Jesus preached that the Kingdom had drawn near, drawing attention to the fact that he was among the people as the Messiah and King. (2 Timothy 3:1; Matthew 4:17; Luke 17:21) The good news preached by the early Christians included the matter of Jesus' resurrection and ascension to heaven, and it encouraged meek ones to put faith in the coming Kingdom. (Acts 2:22-24, 32; 3:19-21; 17:2, 3; 26:23; 28:23, 31) Now that we have reached "the conclusion of the system of things," the preaching of the good news of the Kingdom includes the striking message that the Kingdom is established in the heavens.-Revelation 11:15-18; 12:10.
Who Will Preach the Good News?
Who, today, should share in the preaching work? Evidently, Christendom feels it is not an obligation for everyone, and it is true that when Jesus said that the good news would be preached, he did not specify who would do the work. Whom else, though, would Jehovah use for such a work but those who have put faith in his Word and begun to apply it in their lives? When Jehovah determined in the days of Noah to warn the wicked world of mankind of a coming destruction, he used a man who "walked with the true God." (Genesis 6:9, 13, 14; 2 Peter 2:5) When he wanted prophetic messages delivered to Israel, he sent 'his servants, the prophets.' (Jeremiah 7:25; Amos 3:7, 8) The dedicated nation of Israel was a nation of his witnesses. (Exodus 19:5, 6; Isaiah 43:10-12) Yes, Jehovah uses his dedicated servants as his witnesses.
Some have said that the command to make disciples, given at Matthew 28:19, 20, was given only to the apostles and therefore does not apply to Christians in general. But notice what Jesus said: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations . . . teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." Jesus' followers were to teach new disciples to observe all the things Jesus commanded. And one of the things he commanded was to 'go and make disciples.' Surely, all new disciples would have to be taught to observe this particular command too.
The Christian congregation of the first century was called 'God's people for special possession that they should declare abroad the excellencies of the one who called them out of darkness into his wonderful light.' (1 Peter 2:9) Its members zealously bore witness to the Kingdom of God. (Acts 8:4, 12) All the "holy ones," anointed Christians, in Rome were told that "with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation" and that "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." (Romans 1:7; 10:9, 10, 13) This public declaration for salvation, made at the time of one's baptism, also includes the public preaching of the good news of Jehovah's Kingdom.
The apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrew Christians: "Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised." (Hebrews 10:23) This public declaration is not limited to meetings of the congregation. (Psalm 40:9, 10) At Psalm 96:2, 3, 10 we clearly see a prophetic command to preach outside the congregation, to the nations, in these words: "From day to day tell the good news of salvation by him. Declare among the nations his glory, among all the peoples his wonderful works. Say among the nations: 'Jehovah himself has become king.'" Indeed, at Matthew 28:19, 20 and Acts 1:8, Jesus commanded Christians to preach to the nations.
This public preaching is referred to in Paul's further words to the anointed Hebrew Christians: "Through him let us always offer to God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of lips which make public declaration to his name." (Hebrews 13:15) In the book of Revelation, the "great crowd," gathered out of all nations, is also seen crying out with a loud voice: "Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb." (Revelation 7:9, 10) Thus, in this time of the conclusion of the system of things, the preaching of the good news is done by Jehovah's dedicated Witnesses, the remnant of Christ's spiritual brothers and their sheeplike companions who make up the "great crowd." But how should they actually do this work?
"Publicly and From House to House"
Jesus preached directly to the people. We read, for example, that he preached in the synagogues. Why? Because people assembled there on the Sabbath and listened to a reading and discussion of the Scriptures. (Matthew 4:23; Luke 4:15-21) Jesus also preached to people along the wayside, beside the sea, on a mountain slope, at a well outside a city, and in homes. Wherever there were people, Jesus preached to them.-Matthew 5:1, 2; Mark 1:29-34; 2:1-4, 13; 3:19; 4:1, 2; Luke 5:1-3; 9:57-60; John 4:4-26.
When Jesus sent out his disciples to preach, he also sent them directly to the people. This is seen in his instructions recorded at Matthew 10:1-15, 40-42. In <G<Ţ>G>Mt 10 <G<Ü>G>verse 11 he stated: "Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave." The Jerusalem Bible renders this verse: "Ask for someone trustworthy," as if the disciples were to ask some prominent or knowledgeable person in the village to find out who had a good reputation and was thus deserving of the message. (See also Weymouth and the King James Version.) And this is the explanation that some Bible commentators give of <G<Ţ>G>Mt 10 <G<Ü>G>verse 11.
It should be kept in mind, however, that for the most part, the theologians of Christendom do not go from house to house, and many Bible commentators tend to interpret the Scriptures in the context of their own experience. A more objective consideration of Jesus' instruction indicates that he was speaking about his disciples' searching out people individually, either from house to house or publicly, and presenting to them the message of the Kingdom. (Matthew 10:7) Their response would indicate whether they were deserving or not.-Matthew 10:12-15.
This is seen in Jesus' words at Matthew 10:14: "Wherever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off your feet." Jesus was speaking about his disciples' making uninvited calls on people to preach to them. True, they would ;also accept lodging with one of the households that responded to the message. (Matthew 10:11) But the main thing was the preaching work. At Luke 9:6 it is stated: "Then starting out they went through the territory from village to village, declaring the good news and performing cures everywhere." (See also Luke 10:8, 9.) Deserving ones who received the disciples into their homes as prophets, perhaps giving them "a cup of cold water" or even accommodations, would not lose their reward. They would hear the Kingdom message.-Matthew 10:40-42.
After the Christian congregation was founded, we read concerning the apostles: "And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus." (Acts 5:42; see Reference Bible, footnote.) The expression in the Greek translated "from house to house" is kat' oi'kon. Here ka·ta' is in the distributive sense. Hence, it might be said that the disciples' preaching was distributed from house to house. They were not making mere prearranged social calls. A similar use of ka·ta' is found at Luke 8:1 in the expression "from city to city and from village to village."
The same expression in the plural, kat' oi'kous, is used by the apostle Paul at Acts 20:20. There he stated: "I did not hold back from . . . teaching you publicly and from house to house." The expression "from house to house" is rendered "in your homes" in some translations. So some of Christendom's Bible commentators say that Paul is referring here to shepherding visits in the homes of believers. But Paul's next words show that he was speaking about a ministry to nonbelievers, for he states: "But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus."-Acts 20:21.
This method of reaching the people should therefore be used in our time when the "good news of the kingdom" must be "preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations." (Matthew 24:14) For more than 79 years, Jehovah's Witnesses have been zealously preaching the good news of God's established Kingdom publicly and from house to house-now in 210 lands. What a grand witness is being accomplished! And this despite the fact that most people today hear the message "without response," some even with annoyance. (Matthew 13:15) Why do Jehovah's Witnesses persist in preaching in locations where people refuse to listen or even oppose them?
Why Persist?
First, our enduring faithfully in the preaching work should not depend upon whether people listen to us or not. Jeremiah preached for 40 years in Jerusalem even though very few listened and many violently opposed him. Why did he persist? Because he was doing a work that Jehovah had commanded and because his prophetic knowledge of what was going to happen to Jerusalem forced him to keep speaking. (Jeremiah 1:17-19) He said: "In my heart it proved to be like a burning fire shut up in my bones; and I got tired of holding in, and I was unable to endure it." (Jeremiah 20:7-10) Our situation is similar. It is Jehovah, through Jesus Christ, who commanded that the "good news" should be preached in all the inhabited earth. (Matthew 24:14) When people refuse to listen, this gives us an opportunity to show the depth of our love and devotion to Jehovah by persisting in doing what is right. (1 John 5:3) Besides, when we meditate on what the near future holds for mankind, how can we hold ourselves back from trying to warn our neighbors?-2 Timothy 4:2.
Moreover, Jeremiah's preaching was really a judgment work. In 607 B.C.E., none of those who suffered death or enslavement when Jerusalem fell could claim that they did not know why this was happening to them. For 40 years previously, Jeremiah had been warning them of exactly such an outcome if they continued being rebellious against Jehovah. (Compare Ezekiel 2:5.) Similarly today, the preaching of the good news as "a witness to all the nations" is a basis for judgment. The apostle Paul makes this clear when he states that Christ Jesus will bring vengeance upon "those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus." (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9) People will be judged by their response to the good news. Hence, the preaching work must continue loud and clear right to the end. (Revelation 14:6, 7) Nothing should hinder this vital message from being brought to the people as frequently as possible. This places a great responsibility on all of Jehovah's dedicated servants.
True, we may already have preached the good news quite extensively in our area. But there are so many things happening in the world that even though many people have heard our message, they would soon forget it if we ceased preaching. Think of the revolutions, terrorist actions, strikes, scandals, and other events that are extensively publicized. Then there are the many forms of popular entertainment and other distractions. We must continue preaching to keep our message before the people despite all these other claims on their attention.
When many try to ignore us, we should remember what kind of people the prophet Isaiah had to preach to. Jehovah told him: "For it is a rebellious people, untruthful sons, sons who have been unwilling to hear the law of Jehovah; who have said to the ones seeing, 'You must not see,' and to the ones having visions, 'You must not envision for us any straightforward things. Speak to us smooth things; envision deceptive things. Turn aside from the way; deviate from the path. Cause the Holy One of Israel to cease just on account of us.'" Nevertheless, Isaiah faithfully told the people: "Jehovah is a God of judgment. Happy are all those keeping in expectation of him." (Isaiah 30:9-11, 18) We should do the same. As long as we persist, our message will penetrate to some degree. Some will take heed and others will not. But all will have the opportunity to hear.
'How Will They Hear?'
Perhaps we feel that people in a certain territory have taken a definite stand and are determined to reject our message or even to oppose it. But remember, the situation in people's lives is constantly changing. They may face new problems or situations tomorrow, next week, or next month that will make them receptive to the truth. They may hear of disturbing events in the world or perhaps suffer economic reverses, illness, or death in the family. Such things may cause them to wake up and want to learn the reason for their distress. If we keep on preaching, they will know where to turn.
Our situation might be compared to that of rescue workers in a disaster area, such as after an earthquake. Some might be working in an area where fewer survivors were found, but the fact that their fellow workers were finding more survivors in another area would not cause them to slack off and quit. Rather, all rescue workers tirelessly persevere even when they feel there may be no more survivors in their assigned section. And, then, sometimes they find yet another survivor. The search is called off only when the time that has passed reveals that there is no more hope. Well, our search has not yet been called off, and we are still finding thousands upon thousands who want to be rescued from this old world and survive "the great tribulation." (Revelation 7:9, 14) Even in areas that have been worked thoroughly and where most people do not respond, there are still some results. And there are additional reasons for continuing to preach.
People need to be continually reminded that "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." However, as Paul continues in his letter to the Romans, "how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?" (Romans 10:13, 14) These words should impress on each of us the need to persist in preaching the good news of God's Kingdom.
As the time of the end has continued, children have been born and have grown up to adulthood or to an age of responsibility. Often these young people have not paid any attention to the truth. Their parents may have rejected the message and even spoken against it. But now these youths are old enough to think seriously for themselves about world conditions, about the future, and about their purpose in life. They too need to call on Jehovah's name if they will be saved. But "how . . . will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard?" (Romans 10:14) In many cases these teenagers and young adults are responsive to the truth, so we need to search them out and preach to them.
The fact that the way is still open for preaching is an expression of Jehovah's mercy. The apostle Peter writes: "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation." (2 Peter 3:9, 15) Jehovah's desire that all sorts of men be saved is expressed not only by his patiently allowing time before he executes judgment but also by his continually appealing to men to turn to him and get saved. (1 Timothy 2:4) As we continue to preach the good news, we highlight God's mercy, and in this way we praise him.
Avoiding Bloodguilt
The responsibility of Jehovah's dedicated Witnesses to warn people of God's coming judgment can be compared to that of Ezekiel in his time. He was designated a watchman to the house of Israel. His assignment was to warn the Israelites that execution was coming upon them if they did not turn away from their bad ways. If he as a watchman failed to sound the warning, execution would still come upon the wicked people, but their blood would be upon the head of the negligent watchman. In this Jehovah shows his attitude toward executing judgment: "I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why is it that you should die, O house of Israel?"-Ezekiel 33:1-11.
The apostle Paul acknowledged his responsibility as a watchman, stating to the elders from Ephesus: "Hence I call you to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men." Why could he say that? He continues: "For I have not held back from telling you all the counsel of God." (Acts 20:26, 27) So it is with the watchman class today, the remnant of anointed followers of Jesus Christ. All of these, together with more than three million of their companions who have the hope of surviving the end of this system of things and receiving everlasting life on earth, must never slack off from preaching the good news of God's Kingdom and warning of the coming execution of his judgment. In this way they avoid bloodguilt.
The preaching work today is prophetically described in Ezekiel chapter 9. Here, Jehovah's punishment was determined for the city of Jerusalem. Prior to the execution of that judgment, a man clothed with linen and with a secretary's inkhorn at his hips is told to go through the city and put a mark on the foreheads of all those who are sighing over the detestable things being done there. When this marking work is completed, all in the city except those marked for survival would be executed. At the successful completion of his marking work, the man reported: "I have done just as you have commanded me." (Ezekiel 9:11) He faithfully carried out his assignment to the finish.
The man clothed with linen pictures the anointed remnant of Christ's followers, and they are joined by the "great crowd" of "other sheep." The big issue today, as in Ezekiel's time, is the vindication of Jehovah's sovereignty. Concerning the end of this present wicked system of things at the war of the great day of God the Almighty, Jehovah says: "And the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah." (Revelation 7:9; John 10:16; Ezekiel 39:7) For the nations to know this, it is imperative that Jehovah's servants on earth continue preaching his name and purpose as a witness to all nations.
By keeping on preaching the good news of the Kingdom, we maintain our own vigilance. We keep aware of the importance of Jehovah's name and purpose. If we slack off, our Kingdom hope could weaken, and we could be carried away by the "anxieties and riches and pleasures of this life . . . and bring nothing to perfection." (Luke 8:14) By zealously persevering in declaring "the good news," we faithfully follow the commands of our Master, Jesus Christ: "Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is. But what I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch."-Mark 13:10, 33, 37.
Let all of us, then, persist in seeking out 'those who are sighing' as long as Jehovah allows the time for it. May all of us, whether of the anointed remnant or of the "other sheep," be faithful in carrying out our assignment to preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations. (Matthew 24:14) When Jehovah himself brings this work to its end by beginning "the great tribulation," may each of us be able to say to Jehovah, 'We have done just as you have commanded.'
All the best
vancouver
vancouver
03-04-2002, 12:06
Greetings
Some more information on Christ's death.
"Certainly This Was God's Son"
JESUS has not been on the stake long when, at midday, a mysterious, three-hour-long darkness occurs. A solar eclipse is not responsible, since these take place only at the time of the new moon and the moon is full at Passover time. Moreover, solar eclipses last only a few minutes. So the darkness is of divine origin! It probably gives pause to those mocking Jesus, even causing their taunts to cease.
If the eerie phenomenon occurs before the one evildoer chastises his companion and asks Jesus to remember him, it may be a factor in his repentance. Perhaps it is during the darkness that four women, namely, Jesus' mother and her sister Salome, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of the apostle James the Less, make their way close to the torture stake. John, Jesus' beloved apostle, is with them there.
How the heart of Jesus' mother is 'pierced through' as she watches the son she nursed and nurtured hanging there in agony! Yet Jesus thinks, not of his own pain, but of her welfare. With great effort, he nods toward John and says to his mother: "Woman, see! Your son!" Then, nodding toward Mary, he says to John: "See! Your mother!"
Jesus thereby entrusts the care of his mother, who is evidently now a widow, to his specially loved apostle. He does this because Mary's other sons have not as yet manifested faith in him. Thus he sets a fine example in making provision not only for his mother's physical needs but also for her spiritual ones.
At about three in the afternoon, Jesus says: "I am thirsty." Jesus senses that his Father has, as it were, withdrawn protection from him in order that his integrity might be tested to the limit. So he calls out with a loud voice: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" At hearing this, some who are standing nearby exclaim: "See! He is calling Elijah." Immediately one of them runs and, placing a sponge soaked with sour wine on the end of a hyssop stalk, gives him a drink. But others say: "Let him be! Let us see whether Elijah comes to take him down."
When Jesus receives the sour wine, he cries out: "It has been accomplished!" Yes, he has finished everything that his Father has sent him to earth to do. Finally, he says: "Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit." Jesus thereby commits to God his life-force in confidence that God will restore it to him again. Then he bows his head and dies.
The moment Jesus breathes his last, a violent earthquake occurs, splitting open the rock-masses. The quake is so powerful that the memorial tombs outside Jerusalem are broken open and corpses are thrown out of them. Passersby who see the dead bodies that have been exposed enter the city and report it.
Furthermore, at the moment Jesus dies, the huge curtain that divides the Holy from the Most Holy in God's temple is rent in two, from top to bottom. Apparently this beautifully ornamented curtain is some 60 feet [18 m] high and very heavy! The astonishing miracle not only manifests God's wrath against the killers of His Son but signifies that the way into the Most Holy, heaven itself, is now made possible by Jesus' death.
Well, when people feel the earthquake and see the things happening, they grow very much afraid. The army officer in charge at the execution gives glory to God. "Certainly this was God's Son," he proclaims. Likely he had been present when the claim of divine sonship was discussed at Jesus' trial before Pilate. And now he is convinced that Jesus is the Son of God, yes, that he is indeed the greatest man who ever lived.
Others too are overcome by these miraculous events, and they begin returning home beating their breasts as a gesture of their intense grief and shame. Observing the spectacle at a distance are many female disciples of Jesus who are deeply moved by these momentous events. The apostle John is also present. Matthew 27:45-56; Mark 15:33-41; Luke 23:44-49; 2:34, 35; John 19:25-30.
Also all nations of the earth have descended from Noah as well as Adam and thus all have the potential benefit of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ the messiah.
All the best
vancouver
Jazak Allah khair (May Allah reward you) for correcting me. I just checked it in Ibn kathir again... just want to add... the stories are related by early muslims who heard it form converts from Christianity in the time of prophet Mohammad (i.e. 1400 years ago) - these are the stories of a man coming in place of Jesus...etc.
sorry for not explaning it as such from the beginning.
Greetings Jalaal and Vancouver,
You both appear to be changing the subject.
I would be happy to take a stab at answering your questions, Jalaal, on another thread. For now, can we stick to the question at hand regarding Surah 4.157?
I still want to return to why does the Qur'an imply that Allah lies? How are we supposed to make sense of that?
Even if I declared myself Muslim, I think I would wonder in the back of my mind whether some of my personal beliefs were deceptions by Allah based on this verse. I would also wonder about the fairness of this deception to the so-called non-believers.
I'm sure that in the 1,400 year history of Islam, with over 1 billion current followers, someone has come up with a good explanation for this verse. I patiently await that response.
However, if possible, and if I am not stepping on the toes of anyone, I would like to avoid changing the subject on this thread so long as the question regarding Surah 4.157 remains open...
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Dr Qaisar
03-04-2002, 23:45
Greetings, JBJ
>I quite agree that Allah
>"wills" everything to happen in one sense. However, would
>you say Allah wills innocents to die and starve? If not,
>then we can agree there are different "levels" of what Allah
>allows. On one end He allows innocents to suffer for the
>sake of a greater good, on the other end he wants those who
>seek Him to be rewarded.
Well, Allah (God) is the one who gives life and death; whether innocent or sinful, good or bad, everyone must taste death and thus, return to his/her Creator one day. Whom we may perceive as innocent or guilty may not be so in the Eyes of your Lord. Yes, but God(Allah) does give happiness or suffering, loss or gain etc. to His servants in turn and in measured amounts so that they may turn to Him and recognise the Truth. Who are we judge the Wisdom of the Almighty??
>
>So which is it for the ayah? Did Allah make special actions
>so that "it appeared so to them" or was it the result of
>others. You could put it: did Allah make it happen directly
>or indirectly? But I'm only speaking of the translation of
>it, not so much the interpretation - though I'm interested
>in that too. Thanks, and salaam,
>
>JBJ
As mentioned before and also in that ayah, the event in question occured by the Will and Command of Allah (God) only to test the people. The Judgement or test of God (Allah) comes only after He has made things clear and has sent His Prophet or Revelation to certain people for Guidance. If people choose not to accept the Truth and continue to live in denial of God or His Commands and wilfully accept deception, then Allah will let such people live in the state they chose to be and will not Guide these people (though, He had already given Guidance before)!! In this case, the translation and interpretation of the ayah is the same.
Dr.Qaisar
Dr Quaisar,
Thanks for trying to help, I think you've been the only one sticking to the subject. My question wasn't about interpretation or Allah's reason for the events, it was only translation. Since no one has even mentioned any of the Arabic words in this ayat, it's been clear we've been talking about interpertation, not clear transatoin.
If no one knows, that's perfectly alright. It just would have been nice if someone would say they don't know Arabic well enough.
But to be honest, everything has gotten so long winded and deviated from the subject so much that i don't even remember why my question was important to me. So unless I can remember, I guess I'll stop bugging people about it.
JBJ
Some one asked this
"..How do we know that Jesus did not die on the cross?..."
Now i found this intersting article...i was just surfing this net...
...............
DELIVERANCE FROM THE CROSS
Proof life was not extinct upon Jesus' removal from the Cross
The statements made in this verse are clearly substantiated by the following facts narrated in the Gospels:
(1) Jesus had himself predicted his escape from death on the cross, saying:
"As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40).
Luke 11:29-30 "And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a {sign;} and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation."
The essence of the sign was not the period, for surely Friday evening to Sunday morning by no means equals three days and three nights, but rather 1 day and 2 nights and Luke makes no mention of the period, but only of the Sign of Jonas. Now it is an accepted fact that Jonah had entered the whale's belly alive and had come out alive. What was the sign of the Prophet Jonas? It is in fact agreed among all Muslim and Jewish scholars that Jonah was alive in the belly of the fish for the time that he remained therein. One would suspect that if a live person was to enter the belly of the fish alive, and be thereafter vomited out, he would most certainly be dead, but this was not the case with Jonah. This was indeed the grand miracle, that he miraculously survived near death in the belly of the fish for time he remained therein in those precarious circumstances. Thus, Jesus prophesized the same would be in his case.
It was that he entered the belly of the whale alive, and remained therein alive, and came out thereof alive. The miracle was that Jonah was alive. Thus Jesus prophesied that he would enter the heart of the earth alive, and remain there alive and come out of there alive. If then Jesus (on whom be peace) had died on the cross, what resemblance could there be between a dead man and the one who was alive, and how could a living one be compared with one dead? The design of his enemies would be frustrated and that they would not succeed in putting him to death on the cross.
Jesus never opted to willingly sacrifice himself on the accursed cross, as the Gospels present Jesus to take all precautions for his personal safety when announcing his claim as the Messiah. At one time he charged his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. Matthew 16:20 At another time when his opponents took counsel together to put him to death, he gave up walking openly among the Jews and went to a country near to the wilderness. John 11:53-54. He even hid himself from them. John 12:36. When he knew the determination of his opponents to stop his activities by force, even by killing him they could possibly do so, Jesus went with his disciples to a hiding place known to them. John 18:1-2 When he learned one of his disciples would betray him, Judas, he could see no escape then, and prayed to the Almighty God who could alone frustrate the plans of his enemies.
Discussion Forum: And what about other prophecies where Jesus says that he will be killed and raised after three days?
"You are referring to the sayings of Jesus such as: "and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day" (Matthew 17:23).
To those who study prophecies it seems very strange that a prophecy could be made in such specific terms. Therefore, it is quite possible that this has been written by the Gospel-writers in accordance with their belief that Jesus rose from the dead.
But even supposing that Jesus said this, "killing" need not imply that he would actually die on the cross. So far as his enemies were concerned, they had done everything to try to kill him, and he may be referring to their near-success and the outward appearance that he was killed.
There is a verse in the Quran about the Israelites: "When you killed a man..." (2:72) which we interpret as referring to Jesus, and "killed" as meaning "killed as far as they were concerned".
If Jesus really did make the prophecy quoted above, which appears to be so clear and unequivocal, then why should he also make the prophecy of the sign of Jonah, which doesn't add any extra information and moreover is ambiguous? Having said "third day" so clearly, why confuse matters by also saying "three days and three nights"?
"Three days and three nights" only fulfil the time period (Friday evening to early Sunday morning) if we interpret this description loosely and approximately, whereas "third day", of course, fits exactly. So why should Jesus have referred to the sign of Jonah at all, if he really had also prophesied what would happen exactly?
It looks very likely that "killed" and "third day" were added to conform to the Christian belief." Dr Zahid Aziz
Jesus would never have said Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachtani, My God my God why hast thou forsaken me on the cross if he had said that he would be killed and rise again on the third day.
(2) Jesus prayed repeatedly in the Garden of Gethsemane and ever earnestly in agony prior the trial and the event of the crucifixion, displaying his agitation over the prospect of being condemned to death by crucifixion. If Jesus wanted to die to atone for the sins of mankind, he would have welcomed death on the cross, rather than seeking to be delivered from it. His supplications in the Garden of Gethsemane furnish a complete refutation of the fiction that he was a partner in the Godhead and had come into the world to become an atonement for the sins of mankind.
Matthew 26:36-44 "Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. He went away again the second time, and the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.”
And being in agony he prayed more earnestly: Luke 22:44 "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground."
The gist of his prayers was that he might be saved from death, not because he was afraid of laying down his life in the way of God, but in order that the will of God about his messenger might be fulfilled against the will of his enemies. This is the meaning of "Not what I wilt but what Thou wilt" If Jesus knew that it was his destiny to die for the sins of others and be resurrected after a few days, why would he pray in this way?
(3) The Gospels confirm the acceptance of Jesus’ supplications. He had full confidence that his prayer would be accepted, as he had himself told his disciples:
Matthew 21:22 "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive."
John 11:42 "And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."
Paul confirms that his supplications did not go unheard:
Hebrew 5:7 "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he {feared;}"
Indeed his prayer was accepted: Luke 22:43 "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him."
Jesus knew he would be delivered from death upon the cross, though he did not know how it would come about. His enemies had devised a plan for his ruin and God devised His plan for his deliverance, as is said in the Qur'an:
“And (the Jews) planned and Allah (also) planned. And Allah is the best of planners. When Allah said: O Jesus, I will cause thee to die and exalt thee in My presence and clear thee of those who disbelieve and make those who follow thee above those who disbelieve to the day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, so I shall decide between you concerning that wherein you differ. (Qur’an 3:55-56)
Four distinct promises have been made to him in this verse: (1) his being saved from death on the cross and dying thereafter a natural death; (2) his exaltation in God's presence; (3) his exoneration from the false charges of his enemies, and (4) the domination of his followers over his rejectors.
(4) Pilate's wife had seen a vision concerning the innocence of Jesus:
"When he (Pilate) was set down on the Judgement seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, 'Have thou nothing to do with that just man, for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him " (Matthew 27:19).
We know on the authority of the New Testament that Pilates’ wife was strongly averse to her husband passing judgment against Jesus because of the influence of a dream she had the night before Jesus’ trial. This was clearly divine intervention on behalf of Jesus and the first step in the divine plan to deliver him from death upon the cross. There is no instance in the history of religion where divine intervention, even through a dream, has ever been frustrated of its purpose.
When Herod sought to kill Jesus in childhood, Joseph also was warned against Herod’s evil intention, by way of a dream in order to save Jesus’ life and accordingly, Joseph took him and his mother to Egypt. Likewise God revealed His Will to Pilate through his wife.
That the dream of Pilate's wife was a true one and was inspired by God is clear from the fact that she was informed that Jesus was a just man, that is to say, he was righteous. This message must certainly have influenced Pilate, and his wife must have also done her best to save Jesus. The purpose of this dream was to persuade Pilate to adopt a favourable attitude towards Jesus whereby the divine purpose for his deliverance from death upon the cross might be facilitated and carried into effect.
"From the day of the creation of this world, never has it occurred that God should suggest to a person in a dream that a particular thing would happen in a certain way, and still that thing should fail to happen. For example, the gospel of Matthew says that an angel of the Lord came to Joseph in a dream and said, 'Arise and take the young child and the mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him'. Now, can anyone say that Jesus could be killed in Egypt? Similarly the dream which the wife of Pilate dreamt was a part of God's design, and it could never be that this design should fail in its object; and just as the possibility of Jesus being put to death during the Egyptian journey was against a specific promise of God, so here it is unthinkable that the angel of Almighty God should appear to the wife of Pilate and should direct her to say that if Jesus died on the Cross it would not be a happy thing for her, and yet the angel's appearance should go in vain, and Jesus should be allowed to suffer death on the Cross. Is there any example of this in the world? None. The pure conscience of all good men, when informed of the dream of Pilate's wife, will no doubt testify that it was a fact that the purpose of that dream was to lay the foundation for the rescue of Jesus. It is of course open to everybody to deny an out-and-out truth; out of prejudice born of his creed, he may refuse to accept it, but fairness would oblige us to believe that the dream of Pilate's wife is a piece of weighty evidence in support of Jesus' escape from the Cross. The first in rank among the gospels, i.e., Matthew, has recorded this evidence." - MGA
(5) The attitude of trying magistrate Pilate was affected in accordance with the divine intent (John 19:12).
Perhaps it was the urgent protestation by his wife that led Pilate to make a show of absolving himself of the responsibility of his condemnation of Jesus. He basically amounted to a confession on his part that Jesus was indeed innocent and the harsh judgment passed by him was under duress. It is quite clear from the NT that the powerful Jewish community had colluded against Jesus and was determined to have him punished.
Pilate also gave another attempt to save Jesus. He gave the enraged crowd an option either to save Jesus’ life or that of a notorious criminal called Barabbus. This provides us with a significant clue to the state of Pilate’s mind at that time.
This warning, given to Pilate by God through his wife, at the very commencement of the trial, was a clear revelation of the Will of God to Pilate who himself believe in Jesus’ innocence, and knew that for the ENVY the Jews had delivered him up. What was then the purpose of this dream which God showed to the Governor’s wife, if he did not intend to save Jesus from death?
Pilate believed Jesus to be innocent and, being sympathetic, was anxious to save his life (Matt. 27:17,18; Mark 15:9,10,14; Luke 23:4,14,15; John 18:38,39); and must have secretly tried to save him or at least connived at the attempt of others to do so:
John 19:12 "And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him"
Matthew 27:17-18 "So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, 'Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ? For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him."
Mark 15:14 "'Why? What crime has he committed?' asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, 'Crucify him!'"
Luke 23:4 "Then Pilate announced to the chief priests and the crowd, 'I find no basis for a charge against this man.'"
Luke 23:14-15 "and said to them, 'You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to {us;} as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death."
John 18:38-39 "'What is truth?' Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, 'I find no basis for a charge against him. But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release 'the king of the Jews'?'"
(6) Pilate held the killing of Jesus in such horror that he actually washed his hands with water, saying that he was innocent of the blood of that just man (Matt. 27:24).
Pilate did deliver Jesus to his enemies when they threatened to complain against him to Caesar, were he to release Jesus. John 19:12
Matthew 27:24 "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it."
(7) Pilate did all he could to help Jesus; and the soldiers in charge also treated Jesus with kindness, apparently under Pilate's directions. The following are some of the special favors shown to Jesus: (a) Every malefactor carried his own cross but another man was made to carry that of Jesus (Matthew 27:32, Mark 15:21).
Matthew 27:32 "As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross."
Mark 15:21 "A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross."
(b) As Jesus approached Golgotha, Jesus was offered a beverage which is variously described as "vinegar mingled with gall" (Matthew 27:34), and "wine mingled with myrrh." (Matthew 27:34) Whatever its constituents, this was reported to be a kind of anasthetic or narcotic, a stupefying draught, which, according to Rabbinical traditions, was prepared and offered to those facing execution, by Jewish women who considered such a gesture a pious deed.The object of the drink was, of course, to blunt the senses of the condemned man and reduce his susceptibility to pain. This beverage was offered to Jesus three times: on the way to Golgotha, then after he was nailed to the cross (this was given by the soldiers; it is reported that on that occasion it was vinegar but it may as well have been mixed with a narcotic, (Luke 23:26), and the third time, when after some time the effects of the drink were wearing off and Jesus cried with pain, " I thirst," the drink was administered again, to render him unconscious of pain (John 19:28-30). The two thieves who were crucified with him were not given this drink. It has also been said that mandrake, the root of the shrub with narcotic properties, was also used in the vinegar.
The vinegar was purposely brought to the crucifxion scene by the supporters of Jesus, particularly Joseph and Nicodemus, to serve two purposes: first, to act as a painkiller; second, to render Jesus unconscious.
(8) Following three doses of a drugged drink, and suffering excruciating pain, it is not to be wondered at that Jesus fell into unconsciousness and was taken for dead. The unconsciousness which followed the administration of vinegar was mistaken for death (John 19:30).
(9) Jesus was put on the cross in the afternoon of Friday and was in a hurry to be taken down from the cross before sunset, in accordance with the law of Moses, which the Jews were anxious to observe, as their failure to do so would bring upon them God’s displeasure. (Deut 21:23)
According to Jewish custom it was unlawful and a punishable crime to let anyone remain on the Cross on the Sabbath day, or during the night previous to it.
"So, on the one hand, there was this circumstance which arose out of earthly causes, and, on the other, Almighty God brought into existence heavenly circumstances, namely, that when it was the sixth hour, there was a severe dust-storm which darkened the earth for three hours. (Mark 15:33) This sixth hour was after twelve o'clock, i.e., close to the evening. Now, the Jews were afraid in this utter darkness, lest the night of the Sabbath should overtake them, and lest, having violated the sanctity of the Sabbath, they should deserve to be punished. Therefore, in all haste they took Jesus and the two thieves off their Crosses." - MGA
It was in this psychological state that Pilate fixed Friday afternoon to be the day and time of the execution. What actually happened was a clear indication that he did it on purpose because the Sabbath began by sunset, Jesus’ body would have to be taken down and that is exactly what happened.
Jesus remained on the cross for only about three hours (John 19:14, Matt. 27:46) and according to Mark only for six hours (Mark 16:25, 33), and either of these periods was by no means sufficient to kill a young man like Jesus on the cross when in fact death by crucifixion was always tardy. The peculiar cruelty of crucifixion was that a condemned man good hang for days on this instrument of torture before he finally died. This fact alone would cast grave doubts on Jesus' death on the cross, since the time he hung there was relatively short.
‘A fact of importance to be known, but which has not been sufficiently regarded, is the crucifixion was a very lingering punishment, and proved fatal not so much by loss of blood, since the wounds in the hands and feet did not lacerate any large vessel, and were nearly closed by the nails which produced them, as by the slow process of nervous irritation and exhaustion. This would of course be liable to variety, depending on differences of age, sex, constitution, and other circumstances; but for persons to live two or more days on the cross was a common occurrence, and there are even instances of some who, having been taken down in time and carefully treated, recovered and survived. In many cases death was partly induced by hunger and thirst, the vicissitudes of heat and cold, or the attacks of ravenous birds and beasts; and in others was designedly accelerated by burning, stoning, suffocation, breaking the bones, or piercing the vital organs.’ - Stroud, William, On the Physical Cause of Death of Christ page 55.
When all circumstancse and odds seemed to be in his opposition during this great trial he was enduring, Jesus uttered the words Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachtani, My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me. He said this in exhaustion and in his moment of despair. This statement needs to be taken and read in the context of what happened before the event of the trial and crucifixion when Jesus was praying in the Garden of Gethesmane. He would have only uttered those words if had an agreement with God not to die on the cross. Jesus had prayed to God that God should not forsake him, and upon the acceptance of his prayer, Jesus was thus expecting to be delivered from the cross, although he did not know how it would come about.
(10)In order to cause death, especially to expedite it, various methods were resorted to, one of which was crurifragium - the breaking of the legs of the crucified. The soldiers did not break the legs of Jesus, but the legs of the two malefactors who had been crucified with him wore broken (John 19:32,83), so that when he was taken down from the cross all his limbs were in good condition. The omission to break the legs of Jesus was obviously a divine plan to rescue Jesus from the accursed death which his enemies were to anxious to bring about. The omission to the break the legs would obviously only benefit a person who is alive.
The fulfillment of the prophecy of not breaking his legs was fulfilled, but one must now ask a very pertinent question. What was the purpose underlying the prophecy which could not be without meaning? Had Jesus already been dead, it would be immaterial to him whether or not the legs were broken, or any injury was inflicted on the corpse. A moment’s reflection makes it plain that the Divine purpose underlying the prophecy was to save the life of Jesus from the ignominy of the accursed death. This act of sparing Jesus would certainly have helped his revival from coma.
God had caused Jesus to merely swoon so that the sentries on guard could be misled to believe that he died and as such to release his body to Joseph of Arimathea, to be delievered to his kith and kin.
(11) The side of Jesus being pierced, blood rushed out and this was a certain sign of life. This is corroborated later when Jesus invited Thomas "reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side." (John 20:27) Dean Farar in his Life of Christ (p. 421) had to concede that when the Roman soldiers thrust the broad head of the spear into Jesus' side, "he might have only been in a syncope;" he only appeared to be dead but had in fact fallen into a comatose state. In the Encyclopedia Biblica, under the article "cross," column 960, that "Jesus was alive when the spear was thrust."
John 19:34: "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out."
If he was dead and his heart had stopped beating, such acute bleeding as would cause the blood to rush our gush out would be impossible. At most, coagulated blood and plasma could have passively seeped out. But that is not the picture which the NT presents. It says that blood and water rushed out.
As far as water being mentioned, it should not be surprising for Jesus to have developed pleurisy during the extremely exacting and punishing hours of trial that he spent on the cross. Also, the stress of the crucifixion could have resulted in exudates from the pleura to collect like bags of water, which is medically termed as wet pleurisy. This condition, which is otherwise dangerous and painful, seems to have turned out into an advantage for Jesus because when his side was pierced the swollen pleura could easily have played the role of cushion protecting the chest organs from being directly penetrated by the spear. Water mixed with blood rushed out because of an active heart beat.
Let us examine the issue of the lance that was 'thrust' into Jesus' side. Holger Kersten points out (p. 249, His Unknown Life Before And After The Crucifixion) that the original Greek word for the thrust by the soldier is nyssein. That word does not suggest a forceful thrust. The word means a light scratch, or light puncture of the skin. This word was considered a test designed to determine if the victim was actually dead. If the victim showed no reaction to this light stabbing, then it was assumed that the victim had died.
(12)When Joseph of Arimathaea, a secret disciple, came and craved the body of Jesus, Pilate "marveled if he were already dead," and calling to him the centurion asked him whether he had been any while dead (Mark 15:43-44).
Pilate marveled if Jesus had so quickly. Mark 15:4, which goes to show he must have had a long experience with crucifixion during his tenure as Governor of Judea and could not have expressed his surprise unless he was convinced that it is usual for death to overtake a crucified person within the short period of only a few hours. Yet he had to accept the plea to release the body under mysterious circumstances. That is why he is forever accused of conspiracy. It is alleged that under the influence of his wife he saw to it that the execution of Jesus took place at an hour very close to the Sabbath . This decision of Pilate caused grave concern among the Jews who petitioned him and expressed their doubts and suspicions regarding the death of Jesus. Matthew 27:62-66
Ahmad Deedat writes: "It stands to reason, that if a man faces a firing squad, and shots are fired into his body, and he dies, there would be nothing to "marvel" about. If a person is taken to the gallows and is
hanged, and he dies, there is nothing to "marvel" about. But should they survive, after our common knowledge expects them to die, then there is much to MARVEL about. Conversely, Pilate expects that Jesus should be ALIVE on the cross, and not dead as he is being told, therefore his marvelling is only but natural. He had no special reason for verifying whether Jesus was dead or alive. If he was ALIVE — so what? Had he not found Jesus innocent of the charges levelled against him by the Jews? Did his wife not warn him against doing any harm to "that just man"? Was he not blackmailed into surrendering to Jewish clamour? So if Jesus was alive — Good Luck to him. Pilate grants permission for Joseph to have the body."
"The pagan Romans were not hell-bound to fulfil any prophecy. Their reason was that they "SAW that he was dead already, they brake not his legs". — John 19:33
"For no modern-day stethoscope was used to verify death; nor did anyone touch his body or feel his pulse before concluding that "he was dead already". I see in the word "saw" another step in God's plan of rescue."
(13)Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus, an expert physician, took charge of the body of Jesus, brought him down from the cross, wrapped him in a linen cloth, which was impregnated with spices, and laid him in a sepulchre which had been recently hewn out of a rock. Not only spices, but also ointment was also used to anoint the body of Jesus containing ingredients which have properties of healing wounds and subduing pain etc. Luke 23:56, John 19:39-40. An ointment is used to heal the wounds of a person still alive, and to promote circulation of blood; if a person is dead, why should his body be anointed with ointment? Why was all this fuss about collecting twelve rare ingredients to prepare an ointment at all? The prescription used is recorded in many classical books such as the famous medical textbook Al-Qamn by Ba Ali Sina. So what was the need of applying ointment to a dead body? This could only make sense if this disciples had strong reason to believe that Jesus would be delivered alive from the cross and not dead.There can be no doubt that Joseph and Nicodemus must have continued to minister unto Jesus in the strong hope of reviving him. As nothing had happened that day which could persuade them to believe that Jesus had truly died. Jesus was a young man of 33, of good physique, enjoying good health right up to the moment of his apprehension and condemnation.
The author of John’s Gospel is the only one who has ventured to offer an explanation justifying the act of preparing and applying an ointment to Jesus’ body. This further supports the fact that the act of applying ointment to a dead body was considered extremely odd behavior, inexplicable to those who believed that Jesus was dead when ointment was applied. It is for this reason that the author of John’s Gospel had to offer an explanation. He suggests that is was done merely because it was a Jewish practice to apply some sort of balm or ointment to the bodies of their dead. Now it is a very important fact to note that ALL MODERN SCHOLARS who have researched into this are in the AGREEMENT that the author of the Gospel attributed to John was not of Jewish origin, and he proved it by this most ignorant and stupid statement of his. It is known for certain that Jews for the Children of Israel have NEVER applied any ointments whatsoever to the bodies of their dead.
As such the scholars contend that the author of John’s Gospel must have been of non Jewish origin otherwise he could not have been so ignorant of Jewish customs. So there must have been another reason for this.
For those who insist that ointment was used by Jews on the dead: It was asked: Have Jewish burial customs changed much in 2000 years? The Bible claims that Jesus was covered with some kind of ointment. Does the Biblical account actually fall in line with Jewish burial traditions? Because I thought I heard that it was forbidden to touch the body. Could you be so kind as to explain:
Response: According to the Shema Israel Torah Network International Burial Society: “Jewish Burial Law, along with the rest of TRADITIONAL JEWISH LAW has not changed in 2000 years, but more precisely, 3500 years. The body is not to be touched except by giving it a ritual bath called a TAHARA, standing for purity and then the body is put in the ground in the quickest most simple fashion available with only traditional BURIAL SHROUDS”
(14) It should be remembered that though the word burial has been applied to Jesus, there was no actual burial involved. The grave in which the body would be buried in case of death was not yet dug. The chamber in which he was placed was wide enough to permit people to enter into and move about in. Jesus was not buried in the earth with the two malefactors but was laid separately in a spacious sepulchre hewn out of a rock, "the neck and face of the body were doubtless left bare" (J.R. Dummelow, Commentary of the Holy Bible, 1917, p. 808) and situated in a garden which was private property to avoid the possibility of detection, contrary to normal Jewish practice. (Mark 15:46, John 19: 41, 42). Only a golal ("great stone") was rolled in front of the opening. It seems obvious the secret friends of Jesus wanted to avoid his suffocation. There was also another reason: to resuscitate Jesus they would have had to open the tomb at short intervals.
(15)The narrative of Matthew places beyound doubt that even the Jews doubted his death on the cross. The doubt that Jesus was alive and might, with the aid of his sympathizers, escape from the sepulchre rankled in the minds of the Jews. They remembered also the prophecy of Jesus that he would show them the miracle of Jonah and would come out of the heart of the earth alive. So, influenced by such misgivings, the chief priests and Pharisees went together to Pilate, saying:
"Now the NEXT DAY, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate. Sir, we remember that the deceiver said, while he was yet alive— ‘After three days I will rise again.'Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day....This LAST deception will be worse than the FIRST." Pilate told them to make their own arrangements; " so they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone and setting a watch " (Matthew 27: 62-66).
They wanted to make sure that, if he had been buried alive, he should remain in the sealed sepulchre long enough to die of suffocation, but they were a day late. 24 hours had elapsed by now.
(16)Matthew ALONE says the following the sepulchre was sealed and a watch placed before it. The chief priests waited until Saturday, to place guards at the tomb, as is claimed, but did anyone verify Jesus' body was in the tomb? How is that Mark, Luke and John do not mention these guards? Didn't they think it was an important fact, or didn't they know about it? Then follows a plainly absurd story of the appearance of an angel, and the guards (soldiers) fleeing in terror and reporting to the chief priest (when they should have reported to Pilate), and being bribed by the elders, who did not take the trouble to verify the truth of this highly suspicious report, to say Jesus' disciples had stolen his body during the night. This story was obviously invented to create evidence of the resurrection. "The sealing and watching of sepulchre is now very gradually given up even by those scholars who still hold by the resurrection narrative as a whole...The whole story is a very late production." Encyclopedia Biblica Ed. by Rev. T.K. Cheyne and J Sutherland Black.
(17) Jesus had left the sepulchre before the third day had dawned when Mary Magdalene and Mary, mother of James, came to see the sepulchre and found the stone already rolled away and the sepulchre empty (Mark 16:1-6) which would not have been the case if there had been a supernatural rising. Mark 16:1 also says Mary went to anoint the body of Jesus; one simply does not anoint rotting bodies after 3 days, neither Jews, Muslims, nor Christians, otherwise it woud have fallen to pieces.
We see the development taking place in the Gospels, from the earliest being Mark to Matthew, then Luke and John, in the order which they came about. For example, Matthew disagreed with all the other writers in many details concerning the resurrection: who exactly went to the tomb, the time that they went, what they found upon their arrival, when and where Jesus was first seen after his revivification, and a host of other conflicting details. In Mark, the stone was already moved yet in Matthew the story gets better and more fantastic. Suddenly there is an earthquake and the angel DESCENDS form heaven who moves it in contradiction to Mark who had the so called angel already inside the tomb. We see that this young man in the white robe in Mark evolved into an angel descending from heaven in Matthew.
An interpretation: Who were the men in white robes? To Christians they have always remained a mystery and, as a result, have been described as angels. But these men were helpers of Jesus , described in the Holy Qur'an as huwariyyun. The Holy Qur'an is very exact in terminology and it describes the helpers of Jesus by their distinctive dress -- white garments. "But when Jesus perceived disbelief on their part, he said: Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples* (Arabic word: Huwariyyun) said: We are Allah's helpers: we believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we are submitting ones." (Qur'an 3:52)
*Plural of hawari from the root hara , which means 'simple whiteness.' According to E.W. Lane, in his arabic-english lexicon, book 2 p. 666, hawari means "one who whitens his clothes or garments by washing and beating them." For this reason, the term is applied to the companions or helpers of Jesus, but not his disciples.
Some comentators, however, suggest that they may have been so called because of the purity of their hearts.
(18) After leaving the sepulchre Jesus moved about secretly, lest the Jews should have him arrested again (Mark 16:12, John 20:19,26, 21: 4).
(19) Mary Magdalene and other disciples actually saw Jesus in this body of clay (Mark 16:9,12).
(20) Jesus showed them his wounds to assure them that he was not a spirit but a man of flesh and blood and that the body they saw before them was the same physical body that had been nailed to the Cross (Luke 24:39,40; John 20:27). The wounds could not have been there if he had been given a new life and body.
Luke 24:39-40 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and {see;} for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet."
(21) After leaving the sepulchre Jesus felt hungry and partook of food with his disciples. (John 21:5, 13, Luke 24:41,42,43).
(22) Jesus undertook a journey to Galilee with two of his disciples walking side by side with him (Matthew 28:10), which shows that he was fleeing for refuge; a journey to Galilee was not necessary to rise to heaven.
(23) In all post-crucifixion appearances Jesus is found hiding himself as if he feared being discovered.
The above references among others make it abundantly clear that Jesus did not die on the cross, that he was alive when he was taken down from the cross, and also when he was laid in the sepulchre, and that he came out of it alive on the third day at early morn, as he had himself prophesied, and that later he appeared to his disciples in secret and assured them that he was not dead.
(24) John 10:16 makes it clear the sheep of Israel that Jesus dwelt amongst were not the only sheep that would hear his voice. Common knowledge tells us he never left the land of Judea up to the event of the crucifixion, and thus only preached to two of the tribes of Israel, and still had to account for the lost ten tribes of Israel. Jesus had said, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must I bring, and they shall hear my voice and there shall be one fold and one shepherd" (John 10:16). In these words he was obviously referring to the lost ten tribes of Israel of whom the Gospel had yet to reach.
Jesus Christ is said to have been called Messiah (Al Masih) because he used to travel much, or because he was anointed with a pure blessed ointment with which the prophets are anointed. It is, however, the first significance, viz., that Masih means one who travels much that finds the foremost acceptance with the commentators as well as the lexicologists, and this lends support to the evidence recently discovered which shows that Jesus traveled in the East after his unfortunate experience at the hands of the Syrian Jews, having recovered from the shock and the wounds of crucifixion, preached to the lost ten tribes of the Israelites who had settled in the East, in Afghanistan and Kashmir. In this connection, see also 23:50, where Jesus is spoken as having been afforded shelter in a hilly tract of land. “And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, and We gave them refuge on a lofty ground having meadows and springs.” Jerusalem, Egypt, Palestine or Damascus, which are the names suggested do not answer the description, which applies exactly to the valley of Kashmir.
And for their saying: We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah, and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such. And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for certain: (Qur’an 4:157)
This and the preceding verse mention two main objections of the Jews against Jesus: (1) his alleged, illegitimate birth, and (2) his supposed death on the cross which, according to Jewish Law, was an accursed death (Deut. 21:22-23).
Deut 21:22-23 "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that {day} (for he that is hanged is accursed of {God} that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
[Interestingly, Paul makes reference to this verse in Galatians 3:13 confirming the accursed death of Jesus, thereby implying that Jesus, God forbid, ‘committed a sin worthy of death.’
Galatians 3:13 "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"]
The words 'We did kill the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,' are spoken ironically and tauntingly, meaning, "we have killed Jesus who posed as the Messiah and a Messenger of God." The argument of the Jews was that because Jesus died on the cross, he could not be a true Prophet according to Jewish Law. The inference was based on their sacred scriptures; for, according to the Bible, he who is hanged is accursed of God, and a false Prophet shall meet with destruction. Says the Bible: "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for who that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance " (Deut. 21:23). Again: "My hand shall be upon false prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies " (Ezekial 13:9). Again: "Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that prophesy in My name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; by sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed" (Jet. 14:16).
On the strength of such verses of the Bible the Jews claimed that, as Jesus had been crucified and met with destruction, he could not be a true Prophet of God, but was a false claimant and an accursed one.
Regarding the charge about the alleged death of Jesus by crucifixion, the Qur’an says that the act of crucifixion having not been completed, and Jesus having been taken down alive from the Cross, the charge carries no weight. It should, however, be noted that the Qur’an does not deny the mere hanging of Jesus on the Cross; it only denies his death on it.
Two different views prevail among the Jews regarding Jesus' alleged death by crucifixion. Some of them hold that Jesus was first killed and then his dead body was hung on the cross, while others are of the view that he was put to death by being fixed to the Cross. The former view in reflected in Acts 5:30 where we read "which ye slew and hanged on a tree." The Qur’an refutes both these views by saying, they slew him not, nor crucified him. The words may also signify that the Quran first rejects the slaying of Jesus in any form, and then proceeds to deny the particular way of killing by hanging on the Cross.
The verb ~ (in the passive voice) means, he was made to appear like, or was made to resemble. Now the question arises, who is the person who was made to appear "like one crucified?" Clearly it was Jesus whom the Jews tried to crucify or slay. Nobody else can be meant here, for there is absolutely no reference to any other person in the context. Hence, the theory invented by certain Commentators that Judas or somebody else was made to appear like Jesus and was then crucified in his place is simply absurd. The context cannot be so twisted, as to make room for somebody else of whom no mention at all is made in the verse.
To what then was Jesus made like? The context provides a clear answer to that question. The Jews did not kill him by crucifixion, but he was made to appear to them like "one crucified ", and thus it was that they wrongly took him for dead. It was thus Jesus who was made to resemble "one crucified" The interpretation is not only in perfect harmony with the context but is also clearly borne out by all relevant facts of history.
The second meaning of the expression is, as explained under Important Words, that "the matter became confused to them". This interpretation is also clearly borne out by history; for, although the Jews asserted that they had put Jesus to death by suspending him on the Cross, they were not sure of it and the circumstances being obscure the matter had certainly become confused to them. The fact that the Jews themselves were not sure whether Jesus had actually died on the Cross is supported by the Bible and by all authentic historical facts.
............
Read!"
Sadiq!
vancouver
06-04-2002, 23:04
Greetings
Some information about the 'sign of Jonah':-
"The Sign of Jonah"
When scribes and Pharisees asked Jesus Christ for a sign, he said: "A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet." Jesus added: "For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Matthew 12:38-40) Jewish days began at sundown. Christ died on Friday afternoon, Nisan 14, 33 C.E. His body was placed in a tomb before sunset of that day. Nisan 15 began that evening and ran until sundown of Saturday, the seventh and last day of the week. At that time Nisan 16 began and ran its course until sunset of what we call Sunday. Consequently, Jesus was dead and in the tomb for at least a period of time on Nisan 14, was entombed throughout the entire day of Nisan 15, and spent the nighttime hours of Nisan 16 in the tomb. When certain women came to the tomb on Sunday morning, he had already been resurrected.-Matthew 27:57-61; 28:1-7.
Jesus was in the tomb for parts of three days. His foes thus got "the sign of Jonah," but Christ said: "Men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; because they repented at what Jonah preached, but, look! something more than Jonah is here." (Matthew 12:41) How true! The Jews had among them Jesus Christ-a prophet much greater than Jonah. Though Jonah was an adequate sign to the Ninevites, Jesus preached with far more authority and supporting proof than that prophet did. Yet, the Jews in general did not believe.-John 4:48.
As a nation the Jews did not humbly accept the Prophet greater than Jonah, and they did not exercise faith in Him. But what about their ancestors? They too lacked faith and a humble spirit. In fact, Jonah's preaching activity in Nineveh showed up the contrast between the repentant Ninevites and the stiff-necked Israelites, who were sorely lacking in faith and humility.-Compare Deuteronomy 9:6, 13.
What about Jonah himself? He learned how great God's mercy is. Moreover, Jehovah's reaction to Jonah's murmuring about the pity shown the repentant Ninevites should keep us from complaining when our heavenly Father extends mercy to people in our day. Indeed, let us rejoice that each year thousands turn to Jehovah in faith and with humble hearts.
All the best
vancouver
"the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights."
son of man not son of God! Is this from the bible??
= )
vancouver
07-04-2002, 00:32
Greetings Rasha
Some more info about 'Son of man'
Jesus Christ ***
His Birth on Earth. Prior to Jesus' birth on earth, angels had appeared on this planet in human form, apparently materializing suitable bodies for the occasion, then dematerializing them after completing such assignments. (Ge 19:1-3; Jg 6:20-22; 13:15-20) They thus remained spirit creatures, merely employing a physical body temporarily. This, however, was not the case with the coming of God's Son to earth to become the man Jesus. John 1:14 says that "the Word became flesh and resided among us." For that reason he could call himself "the Son of man." (Joh 1:51; 3:14, 15) Some draw attention to the expression "resided [literally, "tented"] among us" and claim this shows Jesus was, not a true human, but an incarnation. However, the apostle Peter uses a similar expression about himself, and Peter was obviously not an incarnation.-2Pe 1:13, 14.
The inspired Record says: "But the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way. During the time his mother Mary was promised in marriage to Joseph, she was found to be pregnant by holy spirit before they were united." (Mt 1:18) Prior to this, Jehovah's angelic messenger had informed the virgin girl Mary that she would 'conceive in her womb' as the result of God's holy spirit coming upon her and His power overshadowing her. (Lu 1:30, 31, 34, 35) Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum, or egg cell, in Mary's womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth. (Ga 4:4) Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the same person who had resided in heaven as the Word, and only in this way could he have been an actual son of Mary and hence a genuine descendant of her forefathers Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and King David and legitimate heir of the divine promises made to them. (Ge 22:15-18; 26:24; 28:10-14; 49:10; 2Sa 7:8, 11-16; Lu 3:23-34.) It is likely, therefore, that the child born resembled its Jewish mother in certain physical characteristics.
Mary was a descendant of the sinner Adam, hence herself imperfect and sinful. The question therefore is raised as to how Jesus, Mary's "firstborn" (Lu 2:7), could be perfect and free from sin in his physical organism. While modern geneticists have learned much about laws of heredity and about dominant and recessive characteristics, they have had no experience in learning the results of uniting perfection with imperfection, as was the case with Jesus' conception. From the results revealed in the Bible, it would appear that the perfect male life-force (causing the conception) canceled out any imperfection existent in Mary's ovum, thereby producing a genetic pattern (and embryonic development) that was perfect from its start. Whatever the case, the operation of God's holy spirit at the time guaranteed the success of God's purpose. As the angel Gabriel explained to Mary, "power of the Most High" overshadowed her so that what was born was holy, God's Son. God's holy spirit formed, as it were, a protective wall so that no imperfection or hurtful force could damage, or blemish, the developing embryo, from conception on.-Lu 1:35.
So Jesus was born holy. No other child can be said to be born holy.
Regards
vancouver
:)
ok. To you your faith and to me is mine! If u want me to tell u what islam teaches, I will do so. Otherwise, I think the discussion is closed Vancouver.
Dr Qaisar
08-04-2002, 01:19
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-04-02 AT 00:19 AM (GMT)]Greetings, Vancouver
With all due respect, Vancouver, please spare us your logic!!!
Dr.Qaisar
Dr. Qaisar... thanks for the smile...lol....
Hi Sadiq,
The verses from the Bible your source quoted say that false prophets will suffer, not that everyone who suffers is a false prophet.
Then the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah son of Jehoiada the priest. He stood before the people and said, "This is what God says: 'Why do you disobey the Lord 's commands? You will not prosper. Because you have forsaken the Lord , he has forsaken you.' "
21 But they plotted against him, and by order of the king they stoned him to death in the courtyard of the Lord 's temple. King Joash did not remember the kindness Zechariah's father Jehoiada had shown him but killed his son, who said as he lay dying, "May the Lord see this and call you to account." At the turn of the year, the army of Aram marched against Joash; it invaded Judah and Jerusalem and killed all the leaders of the people. They sent all the plunder to their king in Damascus. (2 Chronicles 24.20-23)
This shows that righteous prophets were put to death. John the Baptist was also put to death buy a king.
JBJ
Dr Qaisar
11-04-2002, 02:35
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-04-02 AT 00:38 AM (GMT)]Greetings, JBJ
Here's another translation of V.4:157 from al-Hilali and Muhsin Khan (The Noble Qur'an).....
4:157. And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)
Dr.Qaisar
Muslihah
13-04-2002, 17:24
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 13-04-02 AT 04:27 PM (GMT)]As-Salamu-Alaikum Wr Wb, and greeting everyone,
I haven't read all the threads for this post here, but Jcecil's question has caught my attention and I will try my best to answer it.
The question is something like 'Why did Allah decieve those people by making someone else looked like Jesus in order to save the real Jesus(or Isa alaihis salam)? '
Well Allah would and will never deceive his servants in any way.He sent down messengers and prophets to guide mankind to the right path by correcting whatever wrong deeds done.Those who accept his prophets and follow what they bought will be rewarded and instantly the sins atempted in the past is forgiven.However, as we all know, each prophet was going to have rebels.This did not stop the prophets from spread the words of Allah and they were given 'mukjizat' to strenghten their message.
Now, lets go back to the history of Jesus alaihis-salam, he was appointed to be a messenger of Allah after receiving revelation and he was taught the content of Torah and Bible.He began to call upon his people towards the truth.He had clarified things on prohibition and legal laws too.
Sad to say, his sermon was interrupted by the rebellious jews who could not believe in the hereafter.At the same time, he had to face diversions from the french, book organizers and medicine men( I can't find a proper word for this).With the help of Allah, he was able to overcome all those and 'mukjizat' given to him had strenghten his preach,like creating a bird from mud and revived it to life, put back a dead person to live by calling his name, bring sight to a blind and many more.All the miracles he made would not happened without Allah's permission.
After the right was proven, the jews were still annoyed by Jesus.They tried to stop the others from hearing his speach, but it was useless.Then they came out with a lie, saying that Jesus alaihis-salam was only trying to take over the king of Rome(kaisar).So a punishment concluded by the judges that he had to die on a cross.
As you can see, the people was shown the truth but did not want it.They felt uneasy with such sermon.Message had been sent to them but the turned back.It is not just that, they plotted on killing their prophet or leader!How can you say they were deceived?
I relate this with what happened during prophet Muhammad s.a.w period.Taken from the Quran, 2:6-20 :
[6] Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
[7] Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allâh's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.
[8] And of mankind, there are some (hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allâh and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.
[9] They (think to) deceive Allâh and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!
[10] In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allâh has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies.
[11] And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peace-makers."
[12] Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.
[13] And when it is said to them (hypocrites): "Believe as the people (followers of Muhammad (peace be upon him) Al-Ansâr and Al-Muhajirűn) have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not.
14] And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their Shayâtin (devils - polytheists, hypocrites), they say: "Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking."
[15] Allâh mocks at them and gives them increase in their wrong-doings to wander blindly.
[16] These are they who have purchased error for guidance, so their commerce was profitless. And they were not guided.
[17] Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindled a fire; then, when it lighted all around him, Allâh took away their light and left them in darkness. (So) they could not see.
[18] They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path).
[19] Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder, and lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunder-clap for fear of death. But Allâh ever encompasses the disbelievers (i.e. Allâh will gather them all together).
[20] The lightning almost snatches away their sight, whenever it flashes for them, they walk therein, and when darkness covers them, they stand still. And if Allâh willed, He could have taken away their hearing and their sight. Certainly, Allâh has power over all things.
Muslihah
:)
Beautifully put sis... I liked it. Jazaky Allah khair... just one correction...
mukjizat in arabic it is supposed to be Mo'jezaat. there is no k in there.
for those who don't know.. mo'jezaat are miracles. :)
Hi Nzingha,
Basically I just want to ask a lot of "why" questions about why you said things and where you got the info from, the source and so on.
allow him the time to finish his prophetic mission.
Why and how do you know that?
you can't come over God in such a manner
Weren't there other prophets who were killed?
Within Islamic thought you will also find that Jesus pbuh let his apostles know that he didn't die on the cross. From mary seeing him in the garden saying how he didn't go to his father yet
Again, where? This account is included in the Injil right after Mary and other women find Jesus' tomb to be empty. It's true, he didn't go to his Father yet. After dying on the cross, the Bible says, Jesus went to the place of dead souls, not to heaven. He didn’t go to his Father until he ascended from earth.
to him actually bleeding when he was stabbed while he hung on the cross. dead men don't bleed.
What do you mean dead men don’t bleed? Does the blood disappear? If you chop a freshly dead body in half, it bleeds. (Or pours, whichever terminology you prefer.) This event is also in the Bible, in fact, it has gotten the attention of quite a few doctors. And Jesus wasn't just stabbed, a spear was jabbed into his torso, then twisted around to mesh some internal organs. Ouch! Could you live through that?
Doctors are pretty much agreed that the blood was pericardial fluid, a mixture of watery fluid and clotted blood. Pericardial fluid comes from the heart and comes in excess when the heart is ruptured, like, say, if a spear was thrown into it. Where else would it come from?
There's something very interesting about this topic: Of course the human torso is mostly a bunch or organs, blood vessels, muscles, and bones packed together. For this pericardial fluid to get from the heart to the entry wound, one of two things would have to happen:
1 A channel or "tube" was created by the spear for the fluid to flow through, or
2 the torso was filled with the fluid and overflowed.
The chances of #1 happening are about zilch, for as we know, there's no such channel in the torso, just a bunch of organs and stuff. But the only way #2 could happen was if the heart was ruptured and there's around 25 times more of this fluid. Of course John, the guy who wrote about the spear and water-blood, didn't know any of this. Anatomy was barely invented back then. John just wrote down what he saw.
Another interesting thing: the man with the spear. He was a Roman soldier who had gone to make sure Jesus was dead. (And the men crucified on Jesus' left and right too.) This was his job. He was paid to do it. And if he did it wrong - he was killed! Just like that. The Romans were tough. The Jews didn't kill Jesus, the Romans did. And if someone got away from Roman execution, the executioner didn't get a second chance.
So how did the Roman soldiers avoid getting killed for letting their prisoners die? They broke their legs. That way Jesus wouldn't be able to breath, he'd suffocate. But that didn't happen. You know why? Because this Roman, the one with the spear, he KNEW Jesus was dead already. He looked at Jesus and thought, "This man is dead." Now this was big. He was willing to bet his life (and he did) that Jesus was dead. He was 100% sure.
And you know what else? He wasn't alone. There were three more Romans, one, two, three, who went with him. That's not in the Bible, that's historical fact. The Romans always checked four times to make sure their dead men died. Yeah, they were tough. So that's another man risking his life saying that Jesus was dead. And another. And another. That's four. Did they have to? They didn't, one knock and they could have broken his legs and boom! Dead Jesus. They didn't even bother. They were 100% sure.
Am I saying that Jesus died because of that? I'm not. Maybe the Bible is lying. Maybe there was a shabih and the Romans broke his legs. It's possible, all things are possible with Allah. What I'm saying is that if John was even a tiny bit a reliable writer (or whoever wrote John's book) the Jesus was dead. And if not, the guy on the cross died, because when the Romans wanted a guy dead, he was as good as dead. No question.
But again, you can believe in the shabih, and that's logical. But be sure, whoever was on the cross, that man died that day. That's historical fact.
JBJ
>Basically I just want to ask a lot of "why" questions about why you
>said things and where you got the info from, the source and so on.
I start asking myself, what the reason is why you ask something. Is it pure of curiosity or just hoping that you can get some answers were you can show some christian believe against ?
If it is curiosity, then it is good, because curiosity leads to truth, otherwise I doubt about the intention of your questions.
>allow him the time to finish his prophetic mission.
>
>Why and how do you know that?
>
Because he didn't die, if his prophetic mission was over he could have died.
>you can't come over God in such a manner
>
>Weren't there other prophets who were killed?
>
Yes, but this was following the plan of God. One can't over come God it is He who determines death.
>
>This account is included in the Injil right
>after Mary and other women find Jesus' tomb to be empty.
>It's true, he didn't go to his Father yet. After dying on
>the cross, the Bible says, Jesus went to the place of dead
>souls, not to heaven. He didn’t go to his Father until he
>ascended from earth. >>
Than how can Jesus be a trinity? in this thought your saying that God went where dead souls go?
>What do you mean dead men don’t bleed? Does the blood
>disappear? If you chop a freshly dead body in half, it
>bleeds. (Or pours, whichever terminology you prefer.) This
>event is also in the Bible, in fact, it has gotten the
>attention of quite a few doctors. And Jesus wasn't just
>stabbed, a spear was jabbed into his torso, then twisted
>around to mesh some internal organs. Ouch! Could you live
>through that? >>
Blood doesn't flow, it is the heart which causes the blood to flow, if I stabbed you while you were dead you wouldn't bleed.
And yes someone can live through that. There is a reason why they would break the legs normally, because if they aren't dead they will bleed to death. What is described as happening to jesus.. he can easily live through that. There are ahadith which record men severing their own limbs in battle, after the enemy failed to make a clean break of an arm. They lived to tell the tale.
Keep in mind that there were those who took the body of Jesus pbuh and could have easily tended to his wounds.
>
>Doctors are pretty much agreed that the blood was
>pericardial fluid, a mixture of watery fluid and clotted
>blood. Pericardial fluid comes from the heart and comes in
>excess when the heart is ruptured, like, say, if a spear was
>thrown into it. Where else would it come from? >>
Lung which would give a mixture of water and blood. Not necessarily coming from the heart at all.
>
>Another interesting thing: the man with the spear. He was a
>Roman soldier who had gone to make sure Jesus was dead.
>(And the men crucified on Jesus' left and right too.) This
>was his job. He was paid to do it. And if he did it wrong
>- he was killed! Just like that. The Romans were tough.
>The Jews didn't kill Jesus, the Romans did. And if someone
>got away from Roman execution, the executioner didn't get a
>second chance. >>
Actually it was the Jews who wanted jesus pbuh dead, the only one who Jesus was bothering were the Jews it was them who made the decision for even the NT attests to the fact that the Romans basically had nothing on Jesus pbuh at all.
And this soilder mind you, didn't break the legs which guaranteed bleading to death. A major artery runs through the thigh and injury to that causes death by bleeding out. And evidently not all belived that Jesus pbuh was dead either, if word got round that Jesus pbuh rose from the dead, you'd be hard pressed not to get anyone to view this as a miracle. Evidently it was known that he wasn't actually dead.
>
>So how did the Roman soldiers avoid getting killed for
>letting their prisoners die? They broke their legs. That
>way Jesus wouldn't be able to breath, he'd suffocate.>>
actually he would have suffucated if they had left him on the cross. The way that the body is pinned and all the pressure of the body is hung in that way.. it causes suffication.. or fluid to build up in the lungs causing one to drowned. Which is the reason why you got that fluid from the puncture in the chest.. this actually freed his lungs to breath again. Nice of them to do that unwittingly huh.
<<Because this Roman, the
>one with the spear, he KNEW Jesus was dead already. He
>looked at Jesus and thought, "This man is dead." Now this
>was big. He was willing to bet his life (and he did) that
>Jesus was dead. He was 100% sure.
>
Or God's intervention.. it appeared to him that Jesus pbuh was dead when in fact he was not.. and than more intervention that made the roman stab him in the torso hence releasing fluid from his lungs and allowing Jesus to breath.. God is Great :)
>
>Am I saying that Jesus died because of that? I'm not.
>Maybe the Bible is lying.>>
or maybe the bible is holding some truth but you can't weed through what is plain to me :)
>> Maybe there was a shabih and the
>Romans broke his legs.>>
far fetched if you ask me
vancouver
03-05-2002, 01:18
Greetings
Jesus was the first to go from the earth into heaven. Lazurus for instance died and was resurrected back to the earth by Jesus after 4 days. When he died he went to the grave(Hades in Greek). Jesus when he died went also to the grave like everyone else. People like Noah, Job, Abraham all went to the grave and are still waiting for the resurrection to life on this earth when it will become a paradise again.
Regards
vancouver
sipraomer
27-12-2008, 21:32
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-03-02 AT 09:41 PM (GMT)]Greetings!
The rather long post above still not answer the question of why Allah is deceiving people, instead of ascending Jesus for all to see.
I have a full copy of the so-called gospel of Barnabas published by A&B Publishers Group with a forward by Iman Muhammad Nu'Man. I find it quite interesting that the publishers do not indicate who performed this recent translation.
However, the anonymous introduction indicates that it is based on a translation of the Latin by "Mr. and Mrs. Ragg" for Clarendon Press in 1907. The introduction states that only a single verse has survived in the original Greek.
I have written elsewhere that there are problems with accepting the authenticity of this gospel. As I read through it, I have made hand written notes on almost every page of historical inaccuracies, anachronisms (putting medieval ideas into the mouths of first century people), and misquotes of Biblical passages, or quotes of passages written long after the New Testament. For some more info on this obvious forgery, go to the folowing site:
http://answering-islam.org/Barnabas/
You'll have to do better than that to prove the crucifiction did not happen to Jesus. More importantly, I need to understand why Allah deceived people.
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
First of all I would like to ask which edition of bible is correct. As there are 24000 bibles. Now let me clear one thing. Allah revealed one bible on Jesus. He didn't reveal 24000 bibles on him. It is the humans who altered it. Now what authority does the church has to say that out of 24000 bibles 30 are correct? Amongst those 30 there are also contradictions and dis agreements. Our of those 30 each bible has dis agreements within itself? Third what rules the CHurch has implied to judge which translation is right or which edition is right? Can't we say 40 editions of the bible are right. OR only one edition is right. Or 256 editions of certain bibles are right. Allah has shown the truth. And the people who have sense see that truth and accept it. Those who seeing the truth deny it out of their ego or for worldly benefits choose the wrong path. After the right path is showed to them again and again and still they deny it , ALlah punishes them by sealing their hearts so that they could be punsihed severely in hell.
sipraomer
27-12-2008, 21:39
Why Allah raised Jesus upwards to heaven?
Jesus as a prophet was told about Muhammad by Allah. He was told that the true followers of Muhammad will get more rewards in paradise than the previous followers of previous prophets. He prayed to Allah that make me the disciple of Muhammad. Or one of the Ummah of Muhammad. Allah accepted his prayer and raised him up. He will send Jesus down who will help the muslims to fight the WAR of ARMAGADDON with Jews. He will break the cross and all the Christians will become MUSLIMS. Jesus will pray behind Imam Mehdi which will clearly show that Jesus has not come as a prophet for the second time neither he will discontinue the Shariah of Muhammad. He will come as a follower of Muhammad.
tbahrain
28-12-2008, 02:48
s3, dear br sipraomer
I note that your last two posts on this thread though very valid are however responding to a posting dated 30.03.2002. I doubt very much the poster jcecil3 is still with us.
I have been reading your postings and am glad that you have joined and participated in this forum.
May Allah bless you, brother.
tbahrain
Netcurtains3
29-12-2008, 12:29
If he was still here he probabily would
have said words to this effect:
"cobblers".
John
tbahrain
31-12-2008, 05:11
Ah, John. Glad you still have your sense of humour.
tbahrain
sipraomer
07-01-2009, 06:11
s3, dear br sipraomer
I note that your last two posts on this thread though very valid are however responding to a posting dated 30.03.2002. I doubt very much the poster jcecil3 is still with us.
I have been reading your postings and am glad that you have joined and participated in this forum.
May Allah bless you, brother.
tbahrain
Well shukran Tbahrain. I am also glad for this forum to exist. And people like you contributing in it.
sipraomer
07-01-2009, 06:13
If he was still here he probabily would
have said words to this effect:
"cobblers".
John
Shalom Alaikum John according to Jesus Peace be upon him.
Asalamo Alaikum John, the arabic translation of Shalom Alaikum
God bless us all.
sipraomer
07-01-2009, 06:22
Posted by Zurioc
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070724072102AAIYt1f
Does " As Salaam Alaikum " mean the same as " Peace be with you " ?
The Bible Luke 24:36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them,
" Peace be with you."
The Bible John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, " Peace be with you ! "
The Bible John 20:21 Again Jesus said,
" Peace be with you ! "As the Father has sent me,I am sending you."
The Bible John 20:26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said,
" Peace be with you ! "
Seems Yashua ( Isa / Jesus) said that often. When he spoke such, it probably sounded closer to " As Salaam Alaikum " then it did to the English " Peace be with you ", as Jesus was not a European in the classical usage of the word.
As Salaam Alaikum, Shalom Alayka, Peace be with you.
Either God is one or God does not exist
* 1 year ago
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