View Full Version : The Name Of God
Netcurtains
06-04-2002, 17:57
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-04-02 AT 06:00 PM (GMT)]Hi,
This topic was very interesting and it appears we have run out of "space" on the old thread.
I am not an expert on this topic but I do find it interesting. I hope you do not mind me putting a view over:
I've been reading "The New Lion Handbook to the Bible". It has been written by 75 academics.
On page 162 they have a section called "the names of God". This was written by Alec Motyer (a college lecturer).
The name he comes up with is "Yahweh". Apparently it has a meaning. It means "to be actively present". Of course Christians will say "haha - Jesus was actively present". A good point. Indeed the ancient Jews had an "actively present" god in a box (the ark of covenant) - or did he "hover" on top of it?
Is the word Yahweh related to the word Allah?
One thing that many non-Hebrew speaking Jews and Christians mistake about is the name of GOD Almighty in the Bible. Yahweh in Hebrew means The LORD or the The GOD. It is not a name. Let us look at the following quotations from Christian and Jewish resources:[/p]
Judaism teaches that while God's name exists in written form, it is too holy to be pronounced. The result has been that, over the last 2000 years, the correct pronunciation has been lost.
(Mankind's Search for GOD, p. 225).[/p]
Here we clearly see that the pronunciation for the original name for GOD Almighty had been lost, and the Jews have no idea what the exact pronunciation is from their Holy Scriptures and resources.[/p]
About 3,500 years ago, God spoke to Moses, saying: 'Thus shall you speak to the Israelites: The LORD [Hebrew: YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you: This shall be My name forever, this My appellation for all eternity.' (Exodus 3:15; Psalm 135:13) (Mankind's Search for GOD, p.225).[/p]
....the four Hebrew consonants YHWH (Yahweh) that in their Latinized form have come to be known over the centuries in English as JEHOVAH.(Mankind's Search for GOD, p.225).[/p]
So the word YHWH or Yahweh or Jehovah is not the ORIGINAL name, but the appellation (title) for the Almighty GOD. This is perfectly fine, because Jews, Christians and Muslims call on to GOD Almighty as The LORD or The GOD, which means Yahweh or Jehovah in Hebrew and Al-Rab in Arabic. Al-Rab in Arabic and Yahweh in Hebrew and the other translations in all other languages are indeed GOD Almighty's title. But they are NOT His original Name![/p]
Let us look at what Exodus 3:15 and Psalm 135:13 from the NIV Bible say: God also said to Moses, Say to the Israelites, `The LORD [Notice that they didn't write Jehovah. The LORD in only a title], the God of your fathers--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob--has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 3:15)[/p]
Your name, O LORD, endures forever, your renown, O LORD, through all generations. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 135:13) [/p]
So as we clearly see from the above Verses from the NIV Bible, the original name for GOD Almighty is not Yahweh. The title The LORD is only a title and a nick name (if you will) that we give to GOD Almighty. But Yahweh is definitely NOT THE ORIGINAL NAME for GOD Almighty.[/p]
Allah on the other hand is a name. It is the name of GOD Almighty. Below, you will see ample proofs from the Aramaic language that the name of GOD Almighty was indeed Allah. [/p]
[link:www.answering-christianity.com/allah2.htm|GOD in Arabic and Aramaic sound the same, and it is Allah.]
[link:www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_speak.htm|Jesus peace be upon him spoke Aramaic during his ministry.]
Bibliography:[/p]
1- Mankind's Search for GOD.
Publishers: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, INC.
International Bible Student Association.
Brooklyn, New York, U.S.A.[/p]
See:
http://www.bibleorigins.net/YahwehYawUgarit.html
Jazak Allah khair Jalal. I find this interesting.... learned a lot. Keep it up brother.
Netcurtains
06-04-2002, 20:43
Hi,
yes I agree with some of that. But if I go down the "historic root" and applied the same logic to Allah and the Koran I'll end up with a very similar link:
(blanked out for now)
Would you want me to post the links concerning the "roots" of Allahs name to debate them?
Do you see where this goes?
I am happy to debate history of bible names - are you willing to enter a debate about Allah?
Netcurtains
06-04-2002, 21:08
Hi,
on second thoughts I'll pass. I do not have enough expertise to discuss language roots. If you are interested in the "root" of Allah then of course you can put in google "root of allah" or some such phrase.
For arguments sake let us just assume you (and me) are right. Both Yahweh and Allah have an orgin earlier then the bible or Koran. So what? Where does that lead us? What is the next stage of your argument?
vancouver
06-04-2002, 22:31
Netcurtains, How are you today.
Hate to disagree but you cannot go further back than the history of the Bible. God has always wanted people to worship him using his name. Now that people have left him and forgotten to pronounce his name is the least of worries as over the last few hundred years which is long before the restoration of true religion God's name has been widely recognised as being pronounced JEHOVAH in english and I am certain God is entirely happy with that. He certainly does not wish to be addressed as 'Lord God'.
All the best
vancouver
vancouver... well what if we say that God wants to be called Allah!! What if i say this is God's personal name! So u can't call him Lord, or anything else! As a matter of fact, Arab Christians call God, Allah! Not Jahovah!
So, there we disagree.... what is the true name of God now?
vancouver
06-04-2002, 23:29
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-04-02 AT 11:30 PM (GMT)]>vancouver... well what if we say that God wants to be called
>Allah!! What if i say this is God's personal name! So u
>can't call him Lord, or anything else! As a matter of fact,
>Arab Christians call God, Allah! Not Jahovah!
>
>So, there we disagree.... what is the true name of God now?
Greetings Rasha
Thus, The Illustrated Bible Dictionary (Volume 1, page 572) states the following: "A study of the word 'name' in the O[ld] T[estament] reveals how much it means in Hebrew. The name is no mere label, but is significant of the real personality of him to whom it belongs."
The fact that God views names as important is seen in that, through an angel, he instructed the future parents of John the Baptist and Jesus as to what their sons' names should be. (Luke 1:13, 31) And at times he changed names, or he gave people additional names, to show the place they were to have in his purpose. For example, when God foretold that his servant Abram ("Father of Exaltation") would become father to many nations He changed his name to Abraham ("Father of a Multitude"). And he changed the name of Abraham's wife, Sarai ("Contentious"), to Sarah ("Princess"), since she would be the mother of Abraham's seed.-Genesis 17:5, 15, 16; compare Genesis 32:28; 2 Samuel 12:24, 25.
Jesus, too, recognized the importance of names and he referred to Peter's name in giving him a privilege of service. (Matthew 16:16-19) Even spirit creatures have names. Two mentioned in the Bible are Gabriel and Michael. (Luke 1:26; Jude 9) And when man gives names to inanimate things such as stars, planets, towns, mountains and rivers, he is merely imitating his Creator. For example, the Bible tells us that God calls all the stars by name.-Isaiah 40:26.
Yes, names are important in God's eyes, and he put in man the desire to identify people and things by means of names. Thus angels, people, animals, as well as stars and other inanimate things, have names. Would it be consistent for the Creator of all these things to leave himself nameless? Of course not, especially in view of the psalmist's words: "Let all flesh bless [God's] holy name to time indefinite, even forever."-Psalm 145:21.
The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Volume 2, page 649) says: "One of the most fundamental and essential features of the biblical revelation is the fact that God is not without a name: he has a personal name, by which he can, and is to be, invoked." Jesus certainly had that name in mind when he taught his followers to pray: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified."-Matthew 6:9.
In view of all of this, it is evidently important for us to know what God's name is. Do you know God's personal name?
What Is God's Name?
Surprisingly, the majority of the hundreds of millions of members of the churches of Christendom would probably find it difficult to answer that question. Some would say that God's name is Jesus Christ. Yet Jesus was praying to someone else when he said: "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world." (John 17:6) He was praying to God in heaven, as a son speaking to his father. (John 17:1) It was his heavenly Father's name that had to be "hallowed," or "sanctified."
Yet many modern Bibles do not contain the name, and it is rarely used in the churches. Hence, far from being "hallowed," it has been lost to millions of Bible readers. As an example of the way Bible translators have treated God's name, consider just one verse where it appears: Psalm 83:18. Here is how this scripture is rendered in four different Bibles:
"Let them know that thou alone, whose name is the LORD, art the Most High over all the earth." (Revised Standard Version of 1952)
"To teach them that thou, O Eternal, thou art God Most High o'er all the world." (A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt, of 1922)
"Let them know this: you alone bear the name Yahweh, Most High over the whole world." (Catholic Jerusalem Bible of 1966)
"That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth." (Authorized, or King James, Version of 1611)
Why does God's name look so different in these versions? Is his name LORD, the Eternal, Yahweh or Jehovah? Or are these all acceptable?
To answer this, we have to remember that the Bible was not originally written in English. The Bible writers were Hebrews, and they mostly wrote in the Hebrew and Greek languages of their day. Most of us do not speak those ancient languages. But the Bible has been translated into numerous modern tongues, and we can use these translations when we want to read God's Word.
Christians have a deep respect for the Bible and rightly believe that "all Scripture is inspired of God." (2 Timothy 3:16) Hence, translating the Bible is a weighty responsibility. If someone deliberately changes or omits part of the contents of the Bible, he is tampering with the inspired Word. To such a one the Scriptural warning would apply: "If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life."-Revelation 22:18, 19; see also Deuteronomy 4:2.
Most Bible translators doubtless respect the Bible and sincerely want to make it understandable in this modern age. But translators are not inspired. Most of them have strong opinions, too, on religious matters and may be influenced by personal ideas and preferences. They can also make human errors or mistakes in judgment.
Hence, we have the right to ask some important questions: What is God's real name? And why do different Bible translations have different names for God? Having established the answer to these questions, we can return to our original problem: Why is the sanctification of God's name so important?
"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour."-Isaiah 43:10, 11, American Standard Version.
Jehovah God had witnesses on earth during the thousands of years before Christ. After listing some of those men of faith in Hebrews chapter 11, Hebrews 12:1 says: "So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." Jesus said before Pontius Pilate: "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth." He is called "the faithful and true witness." (John 18:37; Revelation 3:14) Jesus told his disciples: "You will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you, and you will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth."-Acts 1:8.
Hence, the more than 6,000,000 persons today who are telling the good news of Jehovah's Kingdom by Christ Jesus in over 200 lands feel that they properly refer to themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses.
All the best
vancouver
Netcurtains
06-04-2002, 23:38
I have thought about this logically.
So far - to me personally - gods name is "ouch".
As in "that hurts".
I might expand one day.
Greetings Vancouver... so let me see if i get what u are saying right... and add few comments here and there.
First u said that names are important to god. Good, we agree. I mean Allah gave mohammad his name (inspired in a dream to his mother) - his name means the praised one. We believe that Allah is the personal name of God. Ilah in Arabic is God. Allah is derived from God, to indicate the word, THE GOD. Nothing in the world (in arabic) is called Allah. Even the non believers, when they refered to their Gods, they said Al-Ilah, or Al-Aleha (plural). Thus, even their god was not called Allah. the word Allah is only used to refer to the ONE TRUE GOD. The God of Jesus, Moses, Ibrahim, and all the creations.
Here is a unique word to refer to God. That to me is quite personal i believe.
So till now we agree... god HAS a name.
"Do you know God's personal name?" I do. The Quraan says Allah is the name of God.
Here are some example: (note when translated to English, the word used is Allah for names do not get translated or they become titles not names... I am sure the people who translated the bible must have known whether this is a name or a title). Does the bible say what God's name is???
Quraan: (these are just some verses. They are not consequent .. i just picked one chapter and looked up some of its verses.)
The revelation of the Book (this Qur'an) is from Allah the All-Mighty, the All-Knower. (40: 2)
None disputes in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah but those who disbelieve. (40: 4)
Allah knows the fraud of the eyes, and all that the breasts conceal. (40: 19)
Those who disbelieve will be addressed (at the time of entering into the Fire): "Allah's aversion was greater towards you (in the worldly life when you used to reject the Faith) than your aversion towards one another (now in the Fire of Hell, as you are now enemies to one another), when you were called to the Faith but you used to refuse." They will say: "Our Lord! You have made us to die twice (i.e. we were dead in the loins of our fathers and dead after our deaths in this world), and You have given us life twice (i.e. life when we were born and life when we are Resurrected)! Now we confess our sins, then is there any way to get out (of the Fire)?" (It will be said): "This is because, when Allah Alone was invoked (in worship, etc.) you disbelieved, but when partners were joined to Him, you believed! So the judgement is only with Allah, the Most High, the Most Great!" (40: 10 - 12)
Thanks to Allah, in Arabic, there are different words to mean Lord, god or to call on God with his personal name.
Rabb -
Ilah -
Allah -
I believe Ilah is God and Rabb is Lord. Allah is only referring to THE GOD.
I can give tones of more examples from Quraan if u wish, but I think these are enough to get my point across.
"Yet many modern Bibles do not contain the name, and it is rarely used in the churches."
Maybe they do not know the name?? or are not sure of it and do not want to lie about it?
It is very amazing that even some christian do know their bibles have been changed. It makes a big difference u know.. is God Over the Earth or over the whole world??!! Some say God's name is Yahweh, some say Jehovah, some say no name!!
"To answer this, we have to remember that the Bible was not originally written in English."
I do not think this is an acceptable excuse. If i was translating a story, and I read the name Sam, I would keep it the same and not call sam but his other titles like the student. This is called keeping originals!! If i change anything this brings other opinions... what if other things were changed too??
So what if the original bible had the word THE LORD, and then whoever translated (doing his best and acting upon his best knowledge) wrote YAHWAH thinking its ok cause he knows what the bible means??
I am not saying that christians changed their bible delibrately although its possible one had his own belief and wanted it to spread to everyone but i have no proof so i wo'nt accuse anyone of that. But.. they are doing their best aren't they??? Nothing done delibrately!
You even said it urself: "translators are not inspired. Most of them have strong opinions, too, on religious matters and may be influenced by personal ideas and preferences.They can also make human errors or mistakes in judgment."
Now I have a question on the verse u provided (Acts 1:8): You will have power, which power is Jesus talking about?? And the words Jerusalem, Judea, And Samaria (where are these currently. After Jesus, where the Christian strong in these lands??? Jerusalem i can tell u right now no.. because after that the Muslims were in control of Jerusalem and now its in fight between Jews and Muslims so the Christians have nothing to do with it now. Just asking cause this is a bit interesting.
Also u did lose me at the end when u starting concluding its Jahova's witnesses who were referred to or whatever. I do not see what does this have to do with the name of God!
Nutcurtains... if i didn't know the name of God (Allah) and I wanted to call him something... I'd personally call him something nice... maybe something with a beautiful meaning. I don't like this.. don't call him ouch... Nutcurtains u said u believe in God... and do u believe u will meet God one day??? If u do.. then what are u going to do when he says to u... why did u not look for me and find out about me??
vancouver
07-04-2002, 00:04
>I have thought about this logically.
>So far - to me personally - gods name is "ouch".
>As in "that hurts".
>I might expand one day.
Greetings Netcurtains
I can understand this point. When you look at the suffering in the world, the unjust wars, the hunger and all the seemingly needless pain. Many think of God as one who could right all these wrongs and maybe think 'ouch'.
God could have used his might and destroyed Adam and Eve on the spot together with the one who made himself 'resister' or Satan. What would that have proved? Yes, that God is stronger. But what about God's original purpose and the morality of rule by God? No it would not have proved the rightness of God's rule or the fact that people could be really happy serving the creator. So the best result was for God to allow them to have offspring and then to see if any would serve him despite Satan's threats that they would not. So Satan has does his utmost to make sure no one follows the creator and when some do he makes things extremely hard for them. But God showed a way forward by the first prophesy even before a child has been born. This prophesy paved the way for a messiah to come and eventually for all the world's suffering to stop and an end to wickedness was in sight.
Can you see the plot. Man had in the garden of eden decided he could make his own rules and manage without God. So since that time God has allowed dreadful conditions to continue and even worsen. But at the same time individuals have down through time continued to serve God despite Satan and the dreadful conditions. As the end of wickedness draws near more and more people are expected to turn to God in defiance of Satan and once God realises that all that can be saved are saved, then and only then will he sort it all out and his purpose can be fully realised and the earth will be a beautiful place to live in every way.
Regards and best of health
vancouver
Netcurtains
07-04-2002, 10:38
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 07-04-02 AT 10:07 AM (GMT)]Hi,
ok ok - "ouch" - it was just a "light weight" point. Statistically (as far as I can tell from my personal observations) people either call on the name of god (or a rude name) when they see something horrible or they are in pain. The first part of Yahweh "Yah" sounds like a Yell and the second part of Yahweh sound like a soothing sound - weh - wow. Yell (pain) - wow (something nice). Take a look around you and see how non-religious people behave. Non-religious people invoke god in times of pain and sometimes when they see beauty they say "wow". Yahweh. But Allah or Fred or whatever - would god care? He might or might not - I get called lots of things (on this site nutcurtains or curtains etc) but it doesn't matter to me - why would it matter to god? We are meant to be fundamentally similiar?
Why would god care?
I could easily say Yahweh sounds like the "The Way Of Yes". Of course Yah is Yes in Posh English. Weh is pronounced Way (I think). The way of yes. Be positive. I could make up a zillion gods. Would god be upset or laugh?
It is DEFINITELY right to be academic in religion and to put the case as correct as you can. A some bishops and clergy in the UK don't really believe Jesus was god in any sense that ordinary christians think of god. They have come to this conclusion using academic research. This does not make them right but it does mean they have a point. About 10 years ago the Bishop Durham gave a speech saying the "virgin birth of Jesus" was Just a story. He might or might not be correct. About a week later a lightning bolt shot out from the sky and badly damages York Cathedral. It had been standing there for ONE THOUSAND YEARS. The Bishop was RIGHT to give his sermon. Was the reponse God or a coincidence?
I know some of you don't read links so here it is:
"1984 - NEW BISHOP
(County Durham)
David Jenkins becomes the new Bishop of Durham. He is noted for his outspoken and controversial beliefs, including doubts over the resurrection of Christ and the Virgin birth. He is consecrated at York Minster.
July 1984 - MINSTER FIRE
(York)
A major fire destroys parts of York Minster after it is hit by lightning.
"
http://clients.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/millennium/history/page95.htm
well....
the way i see it again relates to respect.... do u go to the queen and call her "Hey yo!" or do u say to her "Cinderella" or call her "Angie" or what not???? Have u done it? Would u do it?? What do u think will happen to u??
If you respect "the queen" so much that u do'nt say such things, I think u awe God more respect that's all.
In Islam (or maybe not just islam its more tradition) we are taught to never refer to our parents with their first names as it is not respectful. You do not call ur elders, or teachers with their first name. WHY?? Respect. Not that they are never called by first names.
so... I think you awe God to respect his name that He wishes to be called with. That's all. If you want to call him Yahwah (well at least u might really believe that's his name) so ok. U are doing ur best. But would u call ur teacher "funky" or "pinky" or whatever... no. You address him with what he told the class to address him with. So.. if God wants to be called such or such... i think we should at least obey that much!!
just my opinion. And please stop comparing urself to God. You are different. I am different. U can call me names... I'll ignore u ... ur not my son or brother (i mean like brother in same family). If my brother calls me something improper (they are allowed to call me few specific names) He'll be scolded. I am his older sister he better show respect.
So... u respect God too! At least in the presence of people who do value that respect. please.
Thank you.
Netcurtains
07-04-2002, 12:49
Hi,
I have to (and you) compare myself to god otherwise god is a meaningless concept. If god is not like us then how can god have any meaning? We christians see god as a human being - jesus. However even if we did not see god as jesus (but say allah) we would still have to compare god to ourselves otherwise god would be meaningless. We see jesus as so much better then ourselves. If we did not compare him to ourselves then how would we know if he was good or not? Surely I might be worshipping the Devil if I did not do a comparision. Surely you have not thought your argument through at all well.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 07-04-02 AT 12:59 PM (GMT)]Netcurtains:
>Hi,
>yes I agree with some of that. But if I go down the
>"historic root" and applied the same logic to Allah and the
>Koran I'll end up with a very similar link:
>
>(blanked out for now)
>
>Would you want me to post the links concerning the "roots"
>of Allahs name to debate them?
>
I am warning you that no disrespect towards Allah will be allowed. If you dare to you'll be immediatly banned and your message removed. Be sure that we know how to block you permanently from IWC!
Netcurtains
07-04-2002, 14:18
Hi,
Disrespect to God? what are you talking about? Get a grip.
Is historic research disrespect or research?
I'll not post it but I think you are not showing me any respect by saying that I would knowingly disrespect god.
Look at the TITLE of this thread - Am I upset by Muslims? No of course not.
COMPARE behaviours.
I think your site owes Christianity a slight apology - However there is no need as you are all forgiven even before you say it. If someone took out Yahweh and put in a name that Islam is familiar with I am sure you would forgive those people just as quickly.
Anyway it is your site and your money - you can behave how you want.
Well....
We can't compare ourselves to God because we are not like god! However, Allah - or god if u want to call him so - sent us messengers on this earth who are the MOST pious and those are the ones who are TAUGHT BY GOD how to behave, so that their manners are the best of manners. I know the Bible says a lot of things which are not always good about the prophets (adultry etc) but.. in islam... these prophets are described in the true and actual manner and they were the most perfect a human can get. They were not sinless but they attained the highest level of pleasure from Allah. These are the ones we look up to and compare ourselves with.
As a Muslim I look up at Jesus, Moses, Mohammad, Ibrahim... and I see their faith and how they conducted their lives, and then i learn how to behave. let me give examples... John (whom we call Yahya) was very good with his parents.... so when i always remember how Allah praised him in the Quraan and I remember him when i treate my parents. Ibrahim prayed to Allah to forgive his father... we all should remember that. Ibrahim also obeyed God even when he tested him by asking Ibrahim to kill his son... Ibrahim obeyed even though it is hard... this gives us motivation to follow the commands of God. I can go on and on... but will say simply... the companions and our pious ancestor has made sure they record everything of the life of Mohammad, how he ate how he drank and every incident... so that we may see example in his actions and behave like him.
God is above all that... and he cannot be like us... we cannot compare ourselves to him.
As br. Saddiq said...please do respect Allah... if u want to give examples... do not use Allah.. use the word God instead.
:)
Think of it Nutcurtains... God doesn't need to be like us to show us how to behave... instead he creates a being whom he knows is the best example to be followed... for the jews he sent Moses and Jesus, then he sent Mohammad to the whole world!
Nutcurtains....
well its just that u must know... to Muslims... Allah is above what u think of Jesus... he is more than that. HE is dearer to us than our souls and life... we'd die for God... and we do not allow anyone of letting god be in the level of human being or science.. for he is above that.
:)
keep learning... i hope u'll get there one day!
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 07-04-02 AT 07:46 PM (GMT)]Greetings All!
I nearly rolled on the floor as I read this thread. I do think the one true God who created the universe is so much bigger than any one of us that he can take a joke. And if humans are not offended by nicknames and pet names, neither is the one known variously to us as Allah-YHWH-Elohim-Adonia-Brahman-Tetzel-Zeus-Y'Shua-God-Deus-Jupiter-the Tao and so forth.
Praise be to "OUCH"!!!
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
!!
well.... i certainly will ask u please to leave Allah out of it... u can call ur god as u wish.... Praised is Allah above all they claim!
Subhana Allahi amma yasefoon!
peace!
Hi,
I don't know a whole lot about language, but YHWH is definitely the name of Allah in Judaism and Christianity. First look at Exodus 3.14, "God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I Am has sent me to you.'" In Hebrew, "I am" sounds very similar to YHWH. Look at Vancouver's quote, "Let them know that thou alone, whose name is the LORD, (YHWH) art the Most High over all the earth."
Jehovah
YHWH are the consonants for Allah's name. This is translated into English as Lord (or LORD) in Bibles. It is also translated as Jehovah in other places and the JW translation. Here's why:
J=Y
e
h=H
o
v=W
a
h=H
Linguistcally, J and Y are closerly related. Such as in Spanish where the J is pronounced as a Y. There is no J in Hebrew. Joshua is also translated from Y'shua, another example of the Hebrew Y turning into the English J.
If I'm recalling the Hebrew I've learned, V and W are the same letter in Hebrew. The W only has a daghesh added to it, giving it a softer sound. I don't know if YHWH includes the daghesh or not, or if dagheshes weren't included.
The vowels, I believe, are taken from the Hebrew word adonai (translated Lord or Master) often used for God in the OT.
Thus you get Jehovah. Jehovah isn't the word Allah spoke in Exodus or that the Jews ever used. No one will ever know exactly what is, but Jehovah is used as something close. Yahweh is another guess at the pronunciation.
In a nutshell, Jehovah, YHWH, Yahweh, I Am, Lord, and LORD all mean the same thing.
HaShem
True, the vowels weren't added to the OT until long after it was written. We know the pronunciation of other words because the Jews spoke the words. So why not for YHWH?
You shall not misuse the name of YHWH your God. (Torah, Exodus 20.7)
The Jews became so devout to this law that they stopped speaking the name YHWH entirely. That way they would NEVER misuse it because they would never use it at all! There's a historical fact that the Jews believed YHWH was Allah's name.
In modern times, Jews call Him HaShem, meaning The Name. When translating, they replace YHWH with HaShem, showing once again that they know His name to be YHWH.
Elohim
I've heard some Muslims claim that Allah was called "Alah" in the OT proving that He is the same from both Books. (I'd read Jalaal's quoted article before.) This idea comes from the word Elohim, meaning "gods." The singular is elo. One person transliterated it into alah, but that implies an incorrect pronounciation to the word.
Nevertheless, Elohim is not Allah's name in the OT, it is more of a title. It is also used for pagan idols. It would translate as ilah into Arabic. No where in the Bible does it say "God's name is Elohim." Instead "my name is YHWH your elohim."
Another Definition For Name
Sometimes the OT mentions YHWH and Allah's name as though they were not the same. Your name, O LORD, endures forever, your renown, O LORD, through all generations. This has nothing to do with the name of Allah. Shem has another meaning for Jews, it is the identity behind the person.
For example, Jesus said the he, the Father, and the Spirit all had the same name. The name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Obviously he wasn't speaking linguistcally. He was refering to this idea that all three members have the same identity. They have the same power, same holiness, wisdom, knowledge, purpose, and love.
The Point?
I really don't see the point in all the discussion of names. Isn't is point what we mean, not the letters we pronounce? My main point in writing this is to show that Abdallah fails once again, and to shine a little linguistical light into the word confusion.
I especially find it irritating when people like Abdallah make a big deal of Jesus using the word Allah. (By the way, I don't know anything about Aramaic.) Weren't prophets sent to all nations in their own tongues? The Greeks too? So what about when a Greek Muslim prophet talked about Allah and used the word Theos? Does that make him false because he didn't use the word Allah like Jesus and Muhammad? What about Assyrian prophets? And Babylonian?
Are Muslims to assume that every prophet used words foreign to their native languages? And why? Does the Qur'an say this? To my knowledge, it doesn't. So why do Muslims like Abdallah make up their own truths that word use matters?
Concluding
In conclusion, Allah's name is YHWH, though the exact pronounciation has been lost. It is not a nick name or a title. No where does the OT say or imply this. It is instead his personal name. Just like my parents call me Jonathan, Allah is called Jehovah. (And yes, when I pray, I use His name.)
This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
Of course, none of this means that YHWH is Allah's true name, but this is the linguistically facts about it in the OT. If a Muslim thinks this contradicts what Islam says about Allah, that's fine. He should just say the OT was corrupted. But he shouldn't try to interpolate stuff which isn't there. That again is deception. (Not important deception, but white lies aren't good either.)
I have a question related to this. I've heard it said that Allah is the personal name of God. Where is the reference for that? Since Allah comes from al-ilah (I'm told) meaning the god, it's always seemed to me very formal. Like addressing someone as "the prime minister." Anyone know?
Salaam!
YBY
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-04-02 AT 05:35 AM (GMT)]Salaam,
I haven't researched the truth of this idea, but thought it was interesting and worth mentioning in this thread.
According to the Jewish Talmud, the Torah was given fifty years after their exit from Egypt. Supposedly, the first letter of Genesis (the first book of the Torah) is T. The 50th letter after that is O. The 50th after that is R. Then H in the same pattern. From that you get TORH, meaing Torah. (Remember, no vowels in the orginal Hebrew. I don't know what the O comes from.) In Exodus, the second book of the Torah, you can follow the same patter and get the same result, TORH.
However, in Leviticus, the third book of the Torah, the pattern doesn't work. In Numbers, the fourth book, you get HROT. That's the Torah backwards. In Deuteronomy, the fifth and last book, you get HROT again. Thus the first two Torahs point forward, and the second two point backwards. That means the Torah points to Leviticus, the middle book.
In Leviticus the first letter is Y. If you go 7 letters after that you find H. Seven is the number in Judaism and Christianity associated with holiness and Allah. Seven more letters and W. Seven more and there is . . . H!
So you have the Torah pointing forwards (TORH) and backwards (HROT) to YHWH! Another indication that Allah's name in the OT is YHWH.
But, I don't have the time or patience to sort through the Hebrew to check it myself, so I can't confirm it. But it's interesting, nonetheless.
JBJ
vancouver
08-04-2002, 11:06
Greetings Tayeb
On the subject of insulting the Creator of everything. He told Adam and Eve that they would die if eating the forbidden fruit. Satan called God(Allah) a liar when he(Satan) said to Eve that she would not die but her eyes would be open and she like God would be able to set her own standards of right and wrong. Since that time many humans have followed Satan and called God a liar by promoting life everlasting no matter what. The belief that the 'soul' is immortal and never dies is the original lie of Satan. Anyone believing this lie is insulting God(Allah). Adam and Eve did die and within the 'day'(1,000 years). Adam and Eve never got to exist again and never will. Satan is the one that was proved to be the liar and not God(Allah)as all those believing in everlasting life no matter what are liars and in agreement with Satan, the father of all liars. We need to think carefully and research diligently in order to find out what does offend God(Allah). We cannot decide what is right or what is wrong for ourselves. We need to have God's(Allah's)mind on the standards we should follow.
All the best
vancouver
Satan insulted God and this is why he is cursed.... Tell Nutcurtains to take heed or God might punish him!
JBJ....
wow! I did'nt know they went into all this difficulty to understand their religion!!!
I certainly love the ease of Islam.....things are straight up .. no numbering, no 50 words no nothing thanks to Allah.
Assalamu-alaikum ya Muslimeen and greetings to all others:
As I stated in the previous thread apparently the founders of "Jehovah's Witnesses" somehow misunderstood the word YHWH and assumed that was the name of "God"? To give one attribute to the Almighty is to limit His Infinite Power. The Jehova's Witnesses are fond to state that somehow they found God's secret name, but in fact the adoption of the word "Jehovah" stems from ignorance of its roots.
In fact all signs are that YHWH means "Oh He is", and it isn't a name, and reflects the fact that the Jews didn't know the name of God and said "He is". In fact biblically, when Moses asked, "What is his name" God said to Moses, "I am who I am" (Ex. 3:13). An interesting fact in the Old Testament (OT) is that the consonant YHWH appears also with attributes such as "YHWH-Jireh", (He will provide ), "YHWH-Nissi" (He is my Banner ), and "YHWH-Tsidkenu" (He is our Righteousness, ) and etc.
The Jehovah's Witness are fond in using a mysterious word "tetragrammaton" to describe "Y H W H!". "Tetra," in Greek means FOUR, and "grammaton," means LETTERS. It simply means "a four letter word." The word "tetragrammaton" aparently seems to have no explanation apart from the interpolation that Jehovah's Witnesses make that the four letters YHWH are "Jehovah". If we add the vowels YHWH becomes YeHoWaH and not Jehovah as it's made to sound in English. The old English imperialists loved to anglicise the names like Joseph, Jesus etc so one can forgive Jehovah's Wintesses to use the word "Jehovah" in English and make it popular repeating many times.
In fact YHWH occurs in the Hebrew (Jewish) Scriptures 6823 times, and it occurs in combination with the word "Elohim;" 156 times in the booklet called "Genesis" alone. This combination YHWH/ELOHIM has been consistently translated in English Bible as "Lord God". From the knowledge of Arabic, and interpolation with Hebrew one can state that "Huwa" means "He is". "Ya" means "Oh". So instead of "YHWH Elohim" we have "Oh He is Elohim". "Im" of "Elohim" is plural of respect in Hebrew. Hence "Eloh" + "im" = "Elohim". "Eloh" or "Elah" stand for the name "God".
On "Huwa" or "Hu" please see the following link for a scholarly analysis:
http://www.world-destiny.org/a46pron.htm
The significance of fallacy of the usage of the term "YHWH" is the first word "Yah" which means "Oh!" be it in old Hebrew or Arabic. Why would God want to be called "Oh He is"? It sounds strange! Like somebody said here if one was called "Oh Yee!" Very strange!
The prefix "Yah" in both Hebrew, and Arabic, is a vocative or exclamatory particle, mistakably understood by some as abridged name of God. Hence, both "YAH" and "YHWH" ( Isa. 12:2;26:4) were combined in this two verses, and therefore there is something more than that implication. "Yah" occurs 50 times in Hebrew scriptures. In Psalms 68:4, rendered "Yah" in KJV and American Translation.
"Yah" is an exclamation, or utterance of strong feeling in both Arabic and Hebrew, sometimes used to express the Mercy of God. The Biblical scholars, surely will not opposed that "Yah" is usually linked with moving emotion of praise and song, where generally found where the subject theme dwells upon a rejoicing over victory and deliverance, or where there is an acknowledgement of God's Mighty Hand and Power. In Arabic we say "Yah Allah!" "Yah Rahman!" etc. In other words, this is an exclamation utterance as " Oh!" in English equivalent. It is found in the poetic literature of the Bible. James Moffatt rendered YHWH "O Eternal" (Ps. 83:18) which Huwa as the Eternal and Yah is "O", hence "O He is". "Yah", is also found 24 times in the expression "Alleluyah," literally an expression of Praise of God.
vancouver
08-04-2002, 18:40
Greetings Tayeb
A little knowledge of a subject can be dangerous. You by your comments are showing that fact to be true. God's name has never been a secret. It just went missing for a few centuries that is all. If you were involved with the Dead Sea Scrolls you would have a more accurate knowledge and would stop embarrasing yourself on this subject of which you obviously know nothing.
Regards
vancouver
Tayeb,
That's all very interesting. I've never heard the translation "oh He is" and not knowing much Hebrew I'm certainly not qualified to bring up any confirmation or objection of any of it. Almost all the Hebrew I know was summarized in one of my messages here.
From the little I know I agree the JWs do put more importance on the name Jehovah than they should. "What is a name? A rose by any other name smell as sweet."
Though I do think it strange that I've heard the translations "I am" and "I will be" for it but not "he is," though it's pretty close of course. Perhaps I can ask someone.
Could you tell me what your sources are? I think I remember you saying you had a Catholic education, did that include some Hebrew?
By the way, isn't Eve's name in Arabic Huwa? Or am I mistaken. If it was, it would seem strange that her name means "he."
Salaam!
Greetings!
I once knew a Catholic Friar who has been living in a hermitage for years, where he prays the Psalms 8 times per day, participates in Mass daily, and spends two additional hours in meditation. When he is not praying, he does manual labor, and helps out in a parish next door. He also fasts twice a week, and sleeps in a 10x10 bedroom. He's been doing this for a good 20 years or so. He has a warm and welcoming smile, and is friendly to everyone. He's a pretty holy guy by anyone's standards....
But before he became a Friar, he spent 27 years in prison for murdering his wife with a shot-gun. At the time of the murder, he was an alcoholic who got in frequent brawls and once raped a woman.
His conversion to Catholicism occured while he was in prison. At first, he says he was trying to "con" the parole board to let him out. He says he was an athiest, who started going to Mass so that he fool the guards into thinking he had changed. But as he became more involved in the proson ministry, he underwent a real conversion.
This guy says he calls God by the name "Slick". He says he calls him that because he started out trying to con God, but God conned him into a genuine conversion.
When he left prison, he went and apologized to the people he had hurt, including the woman he had raped. She has forgiven him and visits him sometimes at the hermitage. He also gives talks to prisoners sometimes.
Jesus was likely the first to call God by the pet name "Abba", meaning something like "Daddy". I do not think God is offended that we give him pet names. The important thing is that we place our trust in him and seek to serve him in love.
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Vancouver, if God's name was missing for awhile... how did they find it again???
Hi Rasha,
Yes, can be complicated. Sometimes it's more like a nuclear physics book than an ancient scripture. Knowing something like that isn't at all important though. It wasn't even discovered until the last 20 years or so (if it's true). I heard some even crazier stuff related to it. But I couldn't even understand what they were trying to say the only time I heard it. All a Christian needs to know is that salvation is a free gift of Allah through Jesus.
JBJ
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-04-02 AT 05:51 PM (GMT)]LOL...
sorry that was cute... Eve's name in arabic is Hawwa'a which comes from the root Hayy (which means living)...here is more on Eve:
Ibn Abbas and a group of companions narrate that the following conversation took place between Adam and Hawwa: He asked her: "who are you?" She replied: "A woman/(in arabic imra2ah." He asked: "Why have you been created ?" She said: "So that you could find tranquility in me." Then, the angels asked Adam her name, and he said: "Hawwa/Eve." They asked: "Why was she so named?" He replied: "Because she was created from something living (the rib)" (The word Hawwa in arabic comes from the root "hay" meaning alive). (Ibn Katheer's Stories of the Prophets, 16-17)
The rest of the article is nice but it is on women and the explanation of the verse: "And among His signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect" (30:21)
this is another topic however. If interested (anyone) i'll post it inshaAllah.
later
vancouver
08-04-2002, 19:01
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-04-02 AT 06:02 PM (GMT)]>Vancouver, if God's name was missing for awhile... how did
>they find it again???
Greetings again Rasha
They found it in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Jews stopped using it for superstitious reasons not too many years before Christ. The early christians used it as did Jesus when reading from the scrolls at least. The english equivelant was widely used in Europe at least from the 16th century and maybe even before that. It has never been in question that God has a name. The Jews and Christendom accept and have always known that God has a name. The reason for its lack of use at times was fear of taking the name of God in vain. No one wants to insult God not even netcurtains if the truth be known. The dispute after they had stopped using it was what vowels to use as the hebrew is written without vowels and people put them in when reading.
Here is something directly from Strong's Concordance and Encyclopedia. There is no connection whatsoever with Jehovah's Witnesses. This is a direct comment on Psalms 83:18 :-
Jehovah = "the existing One"
1) the proper name of the one true God
1a) unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136.
You can look this up on the WEB. I just typed in 'strongs' and linked to the bible at psalms 83 :18 and then clicked on 'JEHOVAH' in that verse.
You will find that all serious scholars of the bible give similar comments.
Regards
vancouver
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-04-02 AT 08:41 PM (GMT)]Dear Vancouver:
>Greetings Tayeb
>
>A little knowledge of a subject can be dangerous. You by
>your comments are showing that fact to be true. God's name
>has never been a secret. It just went missing for a few
>centuries that is all. If you were involved with the Dead
>Sea Scrolls you would have a more accurate knowledge and
>would stop embarrasing yourself on this subject of which you
>obviously know nothing.
>
Yes? Until Judge Rutherford stumbled upon it? What I've been trying to prove is the ignorance of Semitic languages in using an attribute as a real name. I have given you linguistic arguments that you haven't refuted. I repeat my view: lack of knowledge of Semitic languages was the cause of belief that YHWH "Oh! He is" is the name of God. Why would God have such a strange name that limits Him?
On many "Jehovah's Wintesses" beliefs other Christians, namely the Catholics, find these to be wrong, and they rightly or wrongly state that these beliefs are out of ignorance. This isn't a matter of discussion here. The matter of discussion is the usage of Anglicised "Jehovah" for YHWH, and latter means something strange as it resumes Allah into one word which apparently doesn't seem to be His Name but of what human beings may have called Him.
So how can anyone remain happy with mispronouncing God's name? How would God respond to you if you insist on using a name which you realize is a mispronunciation? Would Tom be happy if you call him Tim? Would Jane be happy if you call her June? Would Harry be happy if you call him Hurry? In each case the use of incorrect vowels result in a pronunciation that is either someone else's name or a ridiculous name.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 09-04-02 AT 12:09 PM (GMT)]Dear JBJ:
How are you? Hope all is well with you. We haven't discussed directly for a while.
>Tayeb,
>
>That's all very interesting. I've never heard the
>translation "oh He is" and not knowing much Hebrew I'm
>certainly not qualified to bring up any confirmation or
>objection of any of it. Almost all the Hebrew I know was
>summarized in one of my messages here.
>
>From the little I know I agree the JWs do put more
>importance on the name Jehovah than they should. "What is a
>name? A rose by any other name smell as sweet."
>
It isn't only the matter of the name "Jehovah" that JWs give importance. It's all their worldview and their approach to other Christians beliefs that are somehow distorted. Many of their dogmas have been proven wrong. They called them "mistakes".
>Though I do think it strange that I've heard the
>translations "I am" and "I will be" for it but not "he is,"
>though it's pretty close of course. Perhaps I can ask
>someone.
>Could you tell me what your sources are?
How about the word "Yah"? "Yah" or "Ya" is a vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Hebrew and Arabic, meaning Oh! I've presented some studies of the word "Huwa" and "Hu" which indicate that the pronoun cannot be in the first person. The third person pronouns have remained steadfastly same in both Semitic and Indo-European languages as shown in:
http://www.world-destiny.org/a46pron.htm
My mother tongue "Katchi" a dialect of Sindhi ( a language in India and Pakistan with Indo-European roots) uses also the same third person pronoun (pronounced a bit differently). In fact we use the same grammatical structure as in other Indo-European languages. We are talking of a language with over 4000 years roots!
> I think I remember you saying you had a Catholic education,
No I didn't have a Catholic education. I did my secular education in a Catholic school in Mozambique.
> did that include some Hebrew?
No I didn't learn Hebrew, only some Greek. I learnt Madrassah's (Islamic School) Arabic and this is the only close and live language to the original Biblical language.
>By the way, isn't Eve's name in Arabic Huwa? Or am I
>mistaken. If it was, it would seem strange that her name
>means "he."
>
Wrong! ;-) it has been responded already here.
Salaams - Peace!
vancouver
10-04-2002, 11:46
Greetings Tayeb
It is really important to pray to God using his name. All his prophets did that and his Son Jesus Christ. Here is sme further information about his name and what happened to it for a while.
Identifying the Only True God ***
An Identifying Name
It would be reasonable that any god who has personality would need a personal name to distinguish him from other gods with names of their own. It would preferably be a name designated by the god himself, rather than a name coined by his worshipers.
In this regard, however, a very puzzling fact emerges. While most well-established religions ascribe personal names to their gods, Jews and mainstream churches of Christendom have failed to identify by a distinctive personal name the god that they worship. Instead, they resort to such titles as Lord, God, Almighty, and Father.
Writing in the publication Theology, author David Clines stated the following: "Somewhere between the fifth and the second centuries B.C. a tragic accident befell God: he lost his name. More exactly, Jews gave up using God's personal name Yahweh, and began to refer to Yahweh by various periphrases: God, the Lord, the Name, the Holy One, the Presence, even the Place. Even where Yahweh was written in the Biblical text, readers pronounced the name as Adonai. With the final fall of the temple, even the rare liturgical occasions when the name was used ceased, and even the knowledge of the pronunciation of the name was forgotten." However, no one can say for sure exactly when orthodox Jews ceased to pronounce God's name out loud and instead substituted the Hebrew words for God and Sovereign Lord.
It seems, then, that the very first essential in any quest to identify "the only true God" would be to get to know him by name. Such a search is not at all difficult, for the name of Almighty God, the Creator, is clearly and simply stated at Psalm 83:18: "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."-King James Version.
Jehovah or Yahweh?
Whereas the name Jehovah appears in the King James Version and other Bible translations, some prefer to use the name Yahweh instead of Jehovah. Which name is correct?
The most ancient Bible manuscripts were written in the Hebrew language. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the divine name occurs almost 7,000 times and is spelled with four consonants-YHWH or JHVH. These four-consonant words are commonly called the Tetragrammaton, or Tetragram, derived from two Greek words meaning "four letters." Now the question of accurate pronunciation arises because early Hebrew writing consisted of consonants with no vowels to guide the reader. So whether the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton becomes Yahweh or Jehovah depends on which vowels the reader supplies to the four consonants. Today many Hebrew scholars prefer Yahweh as the true pronunciation.
However, consistency favors Jehovah. In what way? The pronunciation Jehovah has been accepted in English for centuries. Those who object to using this pronunciation should also object to the use of the accepted pronunciation Jeremiah and even Jesus. Jeremiah would need to be changed to Yirˇmeyah' or Yirˇmeya'hu, the original Hebrew pronunciations, and Jesus would become Yeˇshu'a' (Hebrew) or Iˇeˇsous' (Greek). Hence, many Bible students, including Jehovah's Witnesses, feel that consistency favors the use of the already well-known English-language "Jehovah" and its equivalent in other languages.
Does It Really Matter?
Some may argue that it does not really matter whether you address Almighty God by a personal name or not, and they are content to speak of and address God as Father or simply as God. Both these terms, however, are titles rather than names and are neither personal nor distinctive. In Bible times the word for God (´Eloˇhim', Hebrew) was used to describe any god-even the pagan Philistine god named Dagon. (Judges 16:23, 24) So for a Hebrew to tell a Philistine that he, the Hebrew, worshiped "God" would not have identified the true God whom he worshiped.
Of interest is a comment in The Imperial Bible-Dictionary of 1874: "[Jehovah] is everywhere a proper name, denoting the personal God and him only; whereas Elohim partakes more of the character of a common noun, denoting usually, indeed, but not necessarily nor uniformly, the Supreme. . . . The Hebrew may say the Elohim, the true God, in opposition to all false gods; but he never says the Jehovah, for Jehovah is the name of the true God only. He says again and again my God . . . ; but never my Jehovah, for when he says my God, he means Jehovah. He speaks of the God of Israel, but never of the Jehovah of Israel, for there is no other Jehovah. He speaks of the living God, but never of the living Jehovah, for he cannot conceive of Jehovah as other than living."
The True God's Qualities
Just knowing someone's name, of course, does not mean that we know him or her in any depth. The majority of us know the names of leading politicians. Even prominent men and women in other countries may have names that are well-known to us. But simply knowing their names-even how to pronounce them correctly-does not in itself mean that we know these people personally or know what kind of people they are. Similarly, to know the only true God, we need to get to know and admire his qualities.
Though it is true that humans will never be able to see the true God, he has kindly had recorded for us in the Bible many details about his personality. (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18) Certain Hebrew prophets were given inspired visions of Almighty God's heavenly courts. What they describe portrays not only great dignity and awesome majesty and power but also serenity, order, beauty, and pleasantness.-Exodus 24:9-11; Isaiah 6:1; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9; Revelation 4:1-3.
Jehovah God outlined some of his attractive and appealing qualities to Moses, as recorded at Exodus 34:6, 7: "Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin." Don't you agree that getting to know about these qualities of God draws us to him and makes us want to know more about him as a person?
While no human will ever be able to see Jehovah God in his resplendent glory, it is recorded that when Jesus Christ was a man on earth, he actually reflected the type of person that Jehovah God, his heavenly Father, is. On one occasion Jesus said: "The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner."-John 5:19.
So we can deduce from this that Jesus' kindness, compassion, mildness, and warmth as well as his strong love for righteousness and hatred of wickedness are all qualities that Jesus observed in his Father, Jehovah God, while Jesus was with him in the heavenly courts before becoming a man on earth. Thus, when we truly come to know with understanding the full meaning of the name Jehovah, we surely have every reason to love and bless that sacred name, to praise and exalt it, and to trust in it.
Getting to know the only true God in this way is really a never-ending process, as is brought out clearly in the rendering of John 17:3 in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Here the correct tense of the verb "to know" helps greatly, for the present continuous tense is used rather than the simple present tense. Hence, we read: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." Yes, continuing to take in knowledge of the only true God, Jehovah, and of his Son, Jesus Christ, is a process that should never end.
The True God Revealed
Thus, the true God is readily distinguishable from the many false gods. He is the almighty Creator of the universe, including planet Earth and mankind upon it. He has a unique personal name-Jehovah, or Yahweh. He is no part of a mysterious triune god, or Trinity. He is a God of love, and he wishes only the best for his human creation. But he is also a God of justice, and he will not forever tolerate those who insist on ruining the earth and fomenting wars and violence.
Jehovah has revealed his determination not only to rid the earth of wickedness and suffering but also to make it a paradise where honesthearted people can live forever in happiness. (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29, 34) Almighty God has now installed his Son, Jesus, as the heavenly King of God's Kingdom, and soon Jesus will usher in that new world of righteousness and restore Paradise conditions to our earth.-Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10.
We hope that you are now more easily able to answer the question, Does God really exist? and to identify the true God.
Regards
vancouver
Dear Vancouver:
You keep on giving us quotations that don't disprove what I've said.
"Yah" or "Ya" is a vocative and an exclamatory particle in both Hebrew and Arabic, meaning Oh! The word "Huwa" and "Hu" which indicate that the pronoun cannot be in the first person. As I also stated the third person pronouns have remained steadfastly same in both Semitic and Indo-European languages as shown in:
http://www.world-destiny.org/a46pron.htm
So "Yahuwa" can be translated as "Oh! He's" and even if you want to apply another verb there, the pronoun sticks stubornly in third person. So why would God call himself "Oh! He's"? It's quite strange.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 14-04-02 AT 09:10 AM (GMT)]Hi Tayeb,
Yes it has been a while. Let me try to respond with my little bit of Hebrew: First, why do say that "ya" means "oh"? You keep repeating that it does but never give a source like I asked earlier. I couldn't find anything like this in my Hebrew dictionary.
Jehovah (or however you transliterate as) is made from YHWH, or YHVH. Really it's HVHY because Hebrew goes right to left. But to simplify things, I'm going to reverse all the Hebrew and put it left to right. I'm also leaving the Hebrew vowels out most the time for simplification too.
You say that the correct translation is, "Oh he is." I say it is closer to "I am." First off we agree the last part is the same, "is" or "am" or "to be" or "exist" or "to become." It all comes from the word HYH (haw-yaw') or the similar word HVH (hav-aw'). I don't know much of the difference between them. But it's obvious that YHWH must be using HVH because HYH can't be found inside YHVH. And of course YHVH - HVH = Y so all we have left to translate is the Y. (It would have saved me a lot of time if I'd figured that out first.)
You say that Y means "oh." However, then our translation would be "oh, to exist." Now perhaps that's right. Like I said, I can't find any evidence that Y means "oh" or that it doesn't. But right or wrong, it's not what you said, "oh he is." What you said about HW' is true, it means "he" and cannot be used in the first person. But it doesn't matter what the word means because it isn't here. If it was here, it would over lap HVH and force H to somehow mean "to exist" all by itself.
* The character transliterated as (') is an aleph and has no direct crossover into English. The aleph is eliminated when put into a contraction.
JBJ
Hi JBJ:
>Hi Tayeb,
>
>Yes it has been a while. Let me try to respond with my
>little bit of Hebrew: First, why do say that "ya" means
>"oh"? You keep repeating that it does but never give a
>source like I asked earlier. I couldn't find anything like
>this in my Hebrew dictionary.
>
I'd like to know the author's name and other details. You may want to know that James Moffatt rendered YHWH "O Eternal" (Ps. 83:18) which added to Huwa as expalined becomes "O He is".
>Jehovah (or however you transliterate as) is made from YHWH,
>or YHVH. Really it's HVHY because Hebrew goes right to
>left. But to simplify things, I'm going to reverse all the
>Hebrew and put it left to right. I'm also leaving the
>Hebrew vowels out most the time for simplification too.
>
You have to interpret and understand the term using the rule left to right if rendered into Indo-European languages. In fact in original Hebrew it's right to left.
>You say that the correct translation is, "Oh he is." I say
>it is closer to "I am." First off we agree the last part is
>the same, "is" or "am" or "to be" or "exist" or "to become."
> It all comes from the word HYH (haw-yaw') or the similar
>word HVH (hav-aw'). I don't know much of the difference
>between them. But it's obvious that YHWH must be using HVH
>because HYH can't be found inside YHVH. And of course YHVH
>- HVH = Y so all we have left to translate is the Y. (It
>would have saved me a lot of time if I'd figured that out
>first.)
>
My argument and of many others is that there's a third person pronoun that fixed the whole word.
>You say that Y means "oh." However, then our translation
>would be "oh, to exist." Now perhaps that's right. Like I
>said, I can't find any evidence that Y means "oh" or that it
>doesn't. But right or wrong, it's not what you said, "oh he
>is." What you said about HW' is true, it means "he" and
>cannot be used in the first person. But it doesn't matter
>what the word means because it isn't here. If it was here,
>it would over lap HVH and force H to somehow mean "to exist"
>all by itself.
>
No it can't be in infinitive if you know Hebrew. I don't know the a language but I take even JW's word that Arabic can be a good source to understand OT.
Salaams - Peace!
To Netcurtains and other Catholics:
A Catholic friend gave me the following link and it's quite interesting on JWs including the term "Jehovah":
http://www.webshowplace.com/question/home.htm
Salaams - Peace!
Netcurtains
14-04-2002, 15:48
Hi,
Vancouver is a fellow investor in shares from the UK. We are mates.
Indeed many many protestants think to some extent that the Catholic church is in some way anti-christ and satanic (to some extent). We debate this in a more or less friendly way. We don't delete each others messages.
For example I posted on here recently a link to a web site that said the burning down of York Minster was an act of God. On the same web site the man said (or words to this affect) "The Catholic Church during the end times will be controlled by athiests and basically the catholic church is very very bad". But when we discuss by email I get this:
"Dear Netty,
We were pleased to hear from you, and to know that at least some things on our web site found a ready response from you. I know that in this life none of us can agree about everything all the time, and in fact life would become rather boring if that were the case. But it is always nice to receive a word of encouragement. Thank you.
I have today visited the "Feminine" web site you gave me, and realised that there are other people about, who seem to have hit on the identity of the Holy Spirit. I wonder how you feel about this?
Please express your thoughts about your RC persuasion. We don't mind at all. Sorry if I have said anything in an unkind manner. Let me say that we feel unable to join anything that takes away the individual response of a human being directly to the Saviour, whether it be Pope, Archbishop, or any other title. We do not belong to any denominational organisation, and haven't done so for several decades. Our fellowship meets in the various homes of members of our family, and we all take turns to lead the meeting, and share our thoughts with each other. But we have several friends who are committed RCs.
With our kind regards, and our love in the Lord Jesus,
"
Hello JBJ, you are wrong and brother Tayeb is right.
----------------------------------------------------
What does YHWH mean ?
These 4 letters exist since Moses(pbuh). The Greeks have translated these letters with the word "Tetragramaton" (the word of 4 letters). Also they didnt know how this word should be pronounced. Just like the Jews, they haven't dared to add consonants to these 4 letters. They were namely afraid to mispronounce the name of God.
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. -Exodus 20:7
Because man had no consonants in the past, the jewish priests forbad to pronounce the letters Y.H.W.H with consonants. The priests considered mis- or false pronouncing the name of God as blasphemy and declared the death to everyone who dared to do this:
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death. -Leviticus 24:16
The letter 'Y' in Hebrew is an exclamation mark, such as the letter 'O' in English (and in some other languages too) is used as an exclamation mark.
The letters H.W.H. stand for HuWaH what means: 'He is'. It is known that Jesus(pbuh) addressed God with the name Eli. In Arabic Eli is not used but Ilahi. You see that there is a little difference. The 'im' of Elohim is an indication for God's Majesty, when we drop 'im', then Eloh remains (in fact Elah).
When you hear a jew pronouncing Elah, then you will hear 'Alah'. When we put all this together, then we get the following sentence:
'Ya Huwah Alah', what means: "O, He is Allah'.
The jewish priests have never used consonants for the letters Y.H.W.H. The Greeks have tranlated it as Tetragramaton. Many years later, in the year 1878, Rutherford and his succesor Russel Charles have added consonants to these letters. They made Jehovah of Y.H.W.h. and founded a religion of this.
Netcurtains
14-04-2002, 21:17
Oh no he's not!
Sorry this thread makes me laugh - it reads like a kids pantamine.
The Islamic Prophet Jesus said "he who is without sin cast the first stone". No one threw a stone because all sin. We all die for blasphemy because we all sin - its called old age.
No man has the right to take another mans life - especially for blasphemy. Jesus or his "double" was killed by the authorities for blasphemy. This means if a human kills a blasphemer he is attempting to kill Jesus or his look-a-like.
No one must die by the hand of another.
NutCurtains...
sometimes I really dislike ur use of words... if what do u know about what Muslims believe about Jesus.
When u say things like... the Islamic Prophet Jesus.. it sounds like ur quoting from an islamic book or something... is that what u are doing? If u are.. i'd be interested in knowing where u read that!!
If you want to speak of What u think jesus said... then do not use the word islamic.
We believe in Jesus as a prophet... however, you or me cannot quote Jesus except by that which the prophet Mohammad has quoted him with. So.. please be careful of what u say. We do not want the wrong information posted here.
Netcurtains
14-04-2002, 22:00
Interesting.
Did Mohammed say Jesus said "He who is without sin cast the first stone" or is that only in the Gospel?
Hi Jalaal,
What are you talking about? YHWH isn't translated tetragramation, it's translated kyrios. Second, people didn't add vowels, not consonants. Y, H, and W are all consonants. THe vowels are missing. Why do you think the Jews were afraid to mispronuounce YHWH. It had nothing to do with pronounciation, they didn't want to pronounce it right or wrong. There is no punctuation in Hebrew, including Y as an exclamation mark. It may be in other languages, but not Hebrew. HWH (hawah)doesn't mean he is, it means only "is." Check a dictionary.
Please research the facts before claiming they're correct.
JBJ
Hi Tayeb,
I know Hebrew's right to left. I said that before.
You may want to know that James Moffatt rendered YHWH "O Eternal" (Ps. 83:18) which added to Huwa as expalined becomes "O He is".
I used James Strong as my source. So just because one guy translated something one way, the entire history of Judaisma and Christianity is based on stupidity? Isn't that a little far fetched? And I ask again, who is your source for Y meaning oh?
My argument and of many others is that there's a third person pronoun that fixed the whole word.
My arguement is that the third person pronoun idea doesn't work because it doesn't leave room for HWH, to exist. If what you say is true, it would have to be translated "oh, he."
I don't know the a language but I take even JW's word that Arabic can be a good source to understand OT.
If you don't know Hebrew, then why are you debating entymology? Sure Hebrew and Arabic are similar, but just because they are doesn't mean you're qualified to discuss word origin.
I don't know Hebrew either, but I know logic. I also know that the vast majority of scholars say YHVH came from "I am." And I take their word to be good as well. Since neither of us know the language, I suggest we leave entymology to the scholars and move on to things we can both fully understand.
By the way, V and B are the same letter with the daghesh. All this time YHWH is really YHVH. So again, it can't include huwa because there's isn't a W at all.
JBJ
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-04-02 AT 01:07 PM (GMT)]Dear JBJ:
Since the Jews did not add vowels and Bible scholars did us the favour of adding them, my argument holds, and there's no use in mixing up and saying that there's a V instead of W.
On my defence of Arabic, as the only living language similar to the Old Hebrew of OT, comes Rev. H.S. Miller who says: "The Arabic belongs to the branch of the Semitic language, preserving original Semitic form. It is a rich, simple flexible language and render valuable help in the light given sounds, grammatical forms, and words with their meaning in connection with the Old Testament study. It is the language of the Koran.. one of the principal language of the world." P. 162 General Biblical Introduction.
In addition, the Watchtower, the official organ of JWs admitted: "The language of the peoples of Arabia is a member of the South Semitic group and has remained more stable than the other Semitic language. It has therefore, proved helpful in improving the understanding of many expression and words of the ancient Hebrew of the Bible". Insight Vol. 1 p. 141.
Arabic speaking Jews and Christians use the word "Allah". I can state that you don't know any of these Semitic languages, nor can you deny the fixing pronoun. In this case I'd go back to you and ask you where is the first person?
You cannot defend youself using Judaism as this religion is purely monotheistic. The interesting and fascinating endeavour of Allah is that He has kept signs everywhere, including in OT, that He's no partners. The Jews will come in defence of what I am stating as they believe exactly same as we the Muslims do - neither He Begets, nor He's Begotten.
Salaams - Peace!
Netcurtains
16-04-2002, 21:33
Tayeb,
You are quoting from the Jehovahs Witness website but the Jehovahs Witness (Vancouver) who used to write here still cannot reply (so he says). You apparently said to him just 24 hours (as a result of the Jihad thread). So that means that aspect of your argument has to be ignored until a Jehovahs witness can respond. If this is a mistake could you email him and tell him what to do?
It is true Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah but they do nevertheless believe in a Messiah and they use very similiar bible references to back up their version of a Messiah that Christians use for their Messiah.
Someone said "there is no special numbers" so I went to the book of Numbers to check. This is what it says:
Numbers Ch23. v19
"God is not a man, that he should deceive,
Nor a son of man,
that he should repent"
They possibly use this phrase to defend their faith against
Christians and Muslims in one fell swoop. I take no offence -
it is their right to see it how they want.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-04-02 AT 02:46 PM (GMT)]Dear all:
> You are quoting from the Jehovahs Witness website but the Jehovahs
> Witness (Vancouver) who used to write here still cannot reply (so
> he says). You apparently said to him just 24 hours (as a result of
> the Jihad thread). So that means that aspect of your argument has
> to be ignored until a Jehovahs witness can respond. If this is a
> mistake could you email him and tell him what to do?
On vancouver I warned him more than twice that he was violating the rules. He was to be suspended for 24 hours but I allowed him to continue to post, then came the Jihad thread... He can be reinstated if he contacts the Admin. Nevertheless there are other Christians here apparently agreeing with vancouver.
> It is true Jews do not accept that Jesus was the Messiah but they
> do nevertheless believe in a Messiah and they use very similiar
> bible references to back up their version of a Messiah that
> Christians use for their Messiah.
They don't accept Jesus (pbuh), invent stories about his parenthood and even deny he ever existed. Whilst, we Muslims, believe he was a Prophet of Allah, and regard with high respect his mother Mary. In fact, the Holy Qur'an has a whole chapter dedicated to Jesus' mother. We believe Jesus was born of a virgin mother without any relationship with any man.
> Someone said "there is no special numbers" so I went to the book of > Numbers to check. This is what it says:
> Numbers Ch23. v19
> "God is not a man, that he should deceive,
> Nor a son of man,
> that he should repent"
> They possibly use this phrase to defend their faith against
> Christians and Muslims in one fell swoop. I take no offence -
> it is their right to see it how they want.
I'd say they defend their faith against Christians and I would as a Muslim accept these words. Let me respond the JWs on Allah's Attibutes:
Allah. there is no god but He! To Him belong the most Beautiful Names. (The Holy Qur'an 20:8)
He is Allah, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colours). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (The Holy Qur'an 59:24)
The most beautiful names belong to Allah. so call on Him by them; but shun such men as use profanity in His Names: for what they do, they will soon be requited. (The Holy Qur'an 7:180)
Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names." (The Holy Qur'an 17:110)
Finally for the Christians in general:
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
(The Holy Qur'an 112:1-4)
Netcurtains
20-04-2002, 12:02
What we need is a few Buddhist, Jews, Hindus and others to write here.
Its getting a bit stale just having us go round and round.
Have you thought how to expand your readership?
Ruqayyah
20-04-2002, 13:25
Jews,Muslims and Christians are basically people whom Allah sent His books to through his prophets.I don't think Buddhist or Hindus have much common with us.
vancouver
21-04-2002, 02:42
Greetings
He sent his message to the whole world but the whole world did not respond.
Thankfully people communicate with one another and this is how the message gets to everyone. All have the opportunity of finding truth.
All the best and goodnight
vancouver
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