View Full Version : Tamarisk Tree
Netcurtains
16-04-2002, 21:55
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-04-02 AT 08:37 PM (GMT)]If you're interested you'll have to look it up yourself.
NetCurtains...
I do not think anyone here is interested in listening to Bible stories. Please do not keep posting them in here. If you have a question on Islam ask. otherwise, this is not a place to tel us what the bible says. If u wanted to ask About Ibrahim... u didn't need to tell us what the bible says.. u could simply say something like: "What does the quraan say on Ibarhim" Simple.. has no preaching...and nothing to do with bible.... and more interesting as a matter of fact...and shorter to read.
:) thanks
Netcurtains
16-04-2002, 22:42
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 18-04-02 AT 08:45 PM (GMT)]Ok thanks for the emails rasta.
With all the waffle stripped away this is what I want to say (in a nut shell).
The Tamarisk Tree.
In this story Abraham (to me) is kind of the 1st Jew in Palastine. Now he was talking to the Palastinians just before he planted the tree. This is what was agreed:
Torah: Genesis Ch21 v23:
The Palastinian general says:
"Now therefore, swear to me by God that you will
not deal falsely with me, with my offspring, or with my posterity; but that according to the kindness that I have done to you, you will do to me and to the land in which you have sojourned"
And Abraham said "I WILL SWEAR".
.... "And Abraham sojourned in the land of the Philistines many days".
In actuality (if you read the story) there are misunderstandings, armies and stuff.
:)
I'll try to respond another time Netty.... just not now :)
Om_Mohammed
19-04-2002, 02:39
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-04-02 AT 01:40 AM (GMT)]Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
SubhanAllah - walhamdulillah-wa laa ilaha illa Allah. Wa Allahu Akbar.
Surely the Quran has the right and true response to all false claims that the non-muslims would like to claim upon Allah, or His prophets or anything of that which He has revealed to us.
'Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.'s. 3, v. 67.
--Om Mohammed.
Hey Netty...
sorry didn't answer earlier... was a bit upset about the situation with my family back in palestine but anyways... here is what i found on trees for you:
Question:
As salaamo alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatahu
Could you please give me some Hadith references and Quranic references to the Following:
Tuba tree
Tree of Life
Tree of Knowledge
The Cosmic Tree
The Fartherest Tree of the Heavens
These trees are mentioned in muslim literature and I am looking for their credibility
Jazak Allah Khairun
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
A number of trees are mentioned in the Qur’aan and Sunnah, some of which will be discussed below:
The date palm tree
This is a good tree to which Allaah likened the word of Tawheed when it is established in the sincere heart, where it bears fruits of good deeds that strengthen eemaan (faith).
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): "See you not how Allaah sets forth a parable? – A goodly word is as a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the sky (i.e., very high)." [Ibraaheem 14:24]
This is the tree to which Allaah likens the believer because it is good in all aspects, it is lasting and it offers different kinds of benefit. Ibn ‘Umar reported: "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘There is a kind of tree whose leaves do not fall and it is like the Muslim. Tell me what it is.’ The people mentioned different kinds of desert trees … and I said to myself, ‘It is the date palm tree,’ but I felt too shy to speak up. Then the people said, ‘Tell us what it is, O Messenger of Allaah.’ He said: ‘It is the date palm tree.’" (al-Bukhaari, 60)
The blessed olive tree the purity of which Allaah set forth as a parable
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
"Allaah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as (if there were) a niche and within it a lamp, the lamp is in glass, the glass as it were a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east (i.e., it neither gets sun-rays only in the morning) nor of the west (i.e., nor does it get sun-rays only in the afternoon – but it is exposed to the sun all day long), whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself), though no fire touched it. Light upon Light! Allaah guides to His Light whom He wills. And Allaah sets forth parables for mankind, and Allaah is All-Knower of everything." [al-Noor 24:35]
In Soorat al-Mu’minoon, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): "And a tree (olive) that springs forth from Mount Sinai, that grows oil, and (it is a) relish for the eaters." [al-Mu’minoon 23:20]
Abu Aseed said: "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Eat the oil and use it on your hair and skin, for it comes from a blessed tree." (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1775; see also Saheeh al-Jaami’)
The tree which Allaah caused to grow for Yoonus (upon whom be peace) for food and healing.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
"And, verily, Yoonus was one of the Messengers … Then a (big) fish swallowed him and he had done an act worthy of blame. Had he not been of those who glorify Allaah, he would have indeed remained inside its belly until the Day of Resurrection. But We cast him forth on the naked shore while he was sick, and We caused a plant of gourd to grow over him." [al-Saaffaat 37:139, 142-146]
The mufassireen (commentators) said: The gourd (al-yaqteen) is a kind of pumpkin. Some of them described the benefits of the pumpkin, such as: it grows quickly, it provides shade, it has large, smooth leaves, it keeps flies away and its fruit provides good nourishment: it can be eaten raw or cooked, and its skin may be eaten too. It is known that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) liked this kind of pumpkin and used to look for it on the plate of food. (Tafseer Ibn Katheer).
The great tree in heaven where our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw his father Ibraaheem (upon whom be peace)
Samurah ibn Jundub reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, describing his vision: "Then we went up until we reached a green garden, in which there was a great tree, with an old man and children at its base, and another man near the tree, trying to light a fire in front of him. They took me up to that tree and into a house; I have never seen any more beautiful than that house. In it there were men, old men, youths, women and children. Then they brought me out and took me up to the tree and into another house, even better than the first one. In this house there were old and young men. I said: ‘You have shown me around tonight; tell me about what I have seen.’ They said, ‘Yes… the old man at the foot of the tree was Ibraaheem (upon whom be peace), and the children around him were the children of mankind…" (al-Bukhaari, 1270).
Sidrat al-Muntaha, by which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw Jibreel when he was taken up into the heavens
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
"And indeed he (Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw him (Jibreel) at a second descent (i.e., another time), near Sidrat al-Muntaha (the lote tree of the utmost boundary, beyond which none can pass), near it is the Paradise of Abode, when that covered the lote-tree which did cover it! The sight (of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) turned not aside (right or left), nor did it transgress beyond (the) limit (ordained for it). Indeed, he did see of the Greatest Signs of his Lord (Allaah)." [al-Najm 53:13-18]
The phrase translated here as "when that covered the lote-tree which did cover it" is explained by the hadeeth narrated by Imaam al-Bukhaari from Abu Dharr, in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "It was covered in colours, I do not know what they are…" According to a hadeeth narrated by Abu Sa’eed and Ibn ‘Abbaas, he said: "It was covered by the angels." According to a report narrated by Muslim, he said: "When it was covered with whatever covered it by the command of Allaah, it changed, and none of the creation of Allaah could describe its beauty."
In the famous hadeeth about his Mi’raaj (ascent into heaven), the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that when Jibreel took him up into the heavens, he went through from one heaven to the next by the command of Allaah, until he reached the seventh heaven. He said: "Then I was taken to Sidrat al-Muntaha; its fruits were like the pitchers of Hajar and its leaves were like the ears of elephants. He said, ‘This is Sidrat al-Muntaha’…" (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3598).
The reason why it is called Sidrat al-Muntaha is stated in the hadeeth narrated from Ibn Mas’ood by Imaam Muslim: "There everything that comes up from earth stops (yantahee), and it is taken from there, and there everything that comes down stops, and it is taken from there." Al-Nawawi said: It is called Sidrat al-Muntaha because the knowledge of the angels stops at that point, and no one has gone beyond it except the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
It is the tree at which the knowledge of every Prophet who has been sent and every angel who is near to Allaah stops. What lies beyond it is unseen; no one knows it except Allaah or the one to whom He tells it. It was said that this is the ultimate destination of the souls of the martyrs.
The fruits described in the hadeeth are well known: they are the fruits of the lotus tree. Al-Khattaabi said that the phrase "like the pitchers of Hajar" meant that they were big like pitchers; this is something that was known to the first listeners, which is why this analogy was used. Hajar is a place-name. The phrase "its leaves were like the ears of elephants" is also indicative of huge size.
The Tree of Tooba in Paradise
Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "In Paradise there is a tree in whose shade a rider could travel for a hundred years without crossing it. Recite, if you wish: ‘In shade long-extended’ [al-Waaqi’ah 56:30]" (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 4502)
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Tooba is a tree in Paradise, one hundred years big. The clothes of the people of Paradise are made from its calyces (outer casing of its flowers)." (Reported by Ibn Hibbaan; see also Saheeh al-Jaami’, 3918)
‘Utbah ibn ‘Abdin al-Salami said: "A Bedouin came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and asked him about al-Hawd (the cistern). He mentioned Paradise, then the Bedouin asked him, ‘Is there fruit there?’ He said, ‘Yes, and there is a tree called Tooba.’ The Bedouin asked, ‘What tree of this world does it resemble?’ He said, ‘It does not resemble any tree of your land. Have you been to Syria?’ He said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘It resembles a tree in Syria called al-Jawzah (walnut) which grows on one trunk then spreads its branches higher up.’ The Bedouin asked, ‘How big is its trunk?’ He said, ‘If one of the camels of your people was to go around it, it would not complete one circuit before its neck broke of old age and exhaustion. The Bedouin asked, ‘Are there grapes there?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He asked, ‘How big is a bunch?’ He said, ‘The distance a crow could fly without stopping in a month.’ He asked, ‘How big is one grape?’ He said, ‘Does your father ever slaughter a he-goat from his flocks?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘And does he skin it and give the hide to your mother, and say, "Make me a bucket"?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ The Bedouin asked, ‘Is one grape big enough to satisfy me and my family?’ He said, ‘Yes, and your whole tribe.’" (Reported by Imaam Ahmad).
The tree of Zaqqoom, which is the food of the people of Hell
This tree is described in the Qur’aan as (interpretation of the meaning): "… the accursed tree (mentioned) in the Qur’aan" [al-Israa’ 17:60].
Allaah also says about it (interpretation of the meaning):
"Then, moreover, verily, - you the erring-ones, the deniers (of Resurrection)! You verily will eat of the trees of Zaqqoom. Then you will fill your bellies therewith, and drink boiling water on top of it, so you will drink (that) like thirsty camels! That will be their entertainment on the Day of Recompense!" [al-Waaqi’ah 56:51-56]
"Verily, the tree of Zaqqoom, will be the food of the sinners, like boiling oil, it will boil in the bellies, like the boiling of scalding water. (It will be said): ‘Seize him and drag him into the midst of blazing Fire, then pour over his head the torment of boiling water, taste you (this)! Verily, you were (pretending to be the mighty, the generous! Verily! This is that whereof you used to doubt!’" [al-Dukhaan 44:43-50]
"Is that (Paradise) better entertainment or the tree of Zaqqoom (a horrible tree in Hell)? Truly We have made it (as) a trial for the Zaalimoon (polytheists, disbelievers, wrongdoers, etc.). Verily, it is a tree that springs out of the bottom of Hell-fire, the shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of shayaateen (devils); truly they will eat thereof and fill their bellies therewith. Then on the top of that they will be given boiling water to drink so that it becomes a mixture (of boiling water and Zaqqoom in their bellies). Then, thereafter, their return is to the flaming fire of Hell." [al-Saafaat 37:62-68]
The tree under which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted his Companions’ pledge of allegiance unto death and not to desert him.
This happened during the campaign of al-Hudaybiyah, when he heard of the betrayal of the mushrikeen. This tree is also mentioned in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning):
"Indeed, Allaah was pleased with the believers when they gave the Bay’ah (pledge) to you (O Muhammad) under the tree…" [al-Fath 48:18]
The tree next to which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to preach
Jaabir ibn ‘Abdullaah (may Allaah be pleased with him and his father) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to go and stand next to a tree or palm-tree on Fridays. A woman or a man of the Ansaar said: "O Messenger of Allaah, should we not make for you a minbar ("pulpit")?" He said, "If you wish." So they made a minbar for him, and when the next Friday came, he was shown to the minbar. The tree cried like a small child, then the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came down and hugged the crying tree until it calmed down." Jaabir said: "It was crying because of the dhikr (remembrance of Allaah) that it used to hear." (al-Bukhaari, 3319).
The tree from which Allaah spoke to Moosa (upon whom be peace) and sent him as a Prophet
Allaah says in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning):
"So when he reached it (the fire), he was called from the right side of the valley, in the blessed place from the tree: ‘O Moosa! Verily! I am Allaah, the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!" [al-Qasas 28:30]
The tree from which Allaah forbade our father and mother (Aadam and Hawwa) to eat
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
"And O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in Paradise, and eat thereof as you both wish, but approach not this tree, otherwise you both will be of the Zaalimoon (unjust and wrong-doers)." [al-A’raaf 7:19]
"Then Shaytaan whispered to him, saying: ‘O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that will never waste away?" [Ta-Ha 20:120]
"So He misled them with deception. Then when they tasted of the tree, that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifest to them and they began to stick together the leaves of Paradise over themselves (in order to cover their shame). And their Lord called out to them (saying): ‘Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you: Verily Shaytaan is an open enemy to you?’" [al-A’raaf 7:22]
The cedar tree to which Allaah likened the kaafir (disbeliever)
Abu Hurayrah said: "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The example of the believer is like that of a plant which is continually bent over by the wind; the believer is continually beset with afflictions. The example of a hypocrite is like that of the cedar tree, which does not yield until it is uprooted in one go." (Muslim, 5024)
The scholars of Arabic language said: the cedar (al-arz) is a tree similar to the stone pine tree, which grows in Syria and Armenia. According to another report, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The example of the kaafir is that of the firmly-rooted cedar which does not yield to anything until it is uprooted in one go."
The scholars said: The meaning of this hadeeth is that the believer suffers a great deal, in his physical health, with his family and with his wealth, but this is an expiation for his sins and will raise his status. The kaafir, however, suffers little, but even if something happens to him it will not expiate for his sins at all; he will come with a full burden of sin on the Day of Resurrection.
The tree in the righteous vision that was narrated concerning the sajdah (prostration) to be performed when reciting certain aayaat of the Qur’aan
Ibn ‘Abbaas said: A man came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: "O Messenger of Allaah, last night I had a dream in which it was as if I was praying behind a tree. I prostrated and the tree prostrated after me. I heard it saying: ‘Allaahumma uktub li bihaa ‘indaka ajran wada’ ‘anni bihaa wizran waj’alhaa li ‘indaka dhukhran wa taqabbalha minni kamaa taqabbaltahaa min ‘abdika Daawood (O Allaah, record for me because of it (the sajdah) a reward, alleviate some of my burden, and make it an investment on my behalf with You. Accept it from me as You accepted it from Your slave Daawood).’" Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) recited an aayah where a sajdah is required, then he prostrated, and I heard him saying the same words that the man had reported that the tree had said. (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 528)
The two trees which came together to conceal the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he was answering the call of nature
This was recorded in the saheeh report narrated by Imaam Muslim, may Allaah have mercy on him, from Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him): "… We stopped in a fragrant valley, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) wanted to answer the call of nature. I followed him, bringing a bottle of water, but he could not find anywhere where he could conceal himself. There were two trees at the edge of the valley, so the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went to one of them, took hold of one of its branches, and said: ‘Follow me, by the permission of Allaah.’ So it followed him like a camel being led by a rope, until he came to the other tree. He took one of the other tree’s branches and said: ‘Follow me, by the permission of Allaah.’ So it followed him until he reached the halfway point between them, then he put them together and said: ‘Stay together and cover me, by the permission of Allaah.’ So they stayed together." Jaabir said: "I kept away, for fear that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) might feel my presence and move even further away. So I sat down, thinking to myself, and when I turned around, I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) coming towards me, and the two trees had separated and taken up their former positions." (Saheeh Muslim, 5328)
Trees (plants) with foul-smelling "fruits" after eating which the Muslims are forbidden to come to the mosque
Jaabir said: "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever eats of these vegetables (the first time he said ‘garlic,’ then ‘garlic, onions and leeks’), let him not come near us in our mosques, for the agels will be offended by whatever offends the people.’" (al-Nisaa’i, 700)
The trees (all except the gharqad) which will show the Jews to the Muslims so that they may kill them during the great battle at the end of time
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The Hour will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. The Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will say: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allaah! There is a Jews behind me, come and kill him!’ (All the trees will say this except for the gharqad (box-thorn), for it is one of the trees of the Jews.’" (Reported by Imaam Ahmad; it is a saheeh hadeeth).
These are a number of the trees mentioned in the Qur’aan and Sunnah, from which we may learn many lessons. We ask Allaah to help us benefit from these lessons. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad
Netcurtains
19-04-2002, 08:14
Hi,
I'm no scholar of religious texts.
But of human biology I might have some knowledge.
The philistines, arabs and the Jews are one and the same.
For sure religions do change and evolve from time
to time. Moses was not circumcised or his children (bible
references exist but I'm to lazy to look it up).
When circumcision restarted (after the 40 years in the desert)
so did all the killing. When circumcision died down (about time of Jesus) it restarted with a horrible vengence so that the Jews would looked very disfigured compared to the Greeks. It now is back in a milder form (since the 19th Century).
"Mohammed" said about the bible/Torah (this is why it must be studied
by anyone who conciders themselve Muslim):
the Quran, recommends the Bible, saying that the Quran is "confirming that which was revealed before it; for [God] had formerly sent down the law, and the gospel [the Bible] . . . God shall teach [them] the scripture, and wisdom, and the law, and the gospel." (The Quran, translation by G. Sale, pp. 86, 89).
Netcurtains
19-04-2002, 12:46
Hi Rasta,
thanks for the list.
i didn't really want a list (but interesting nevertheless).
what would be nice if for you to pick ONE of these trees and
write what the story means to YOU PERSONNALLY. This is what I
find interesting - what REAL PEOPLE think.
Thanks.
ps - I hope some of the 'admin' staff have a sense of humour - they 'sound' so cold and lifeless.
NetCurtains...
I do not personally have a relationship with "any tree" it really means little to me. I'm not a science person...i'm a people's person. hmm.... from all the trees... the first two that come to mind are olive tree and palm trees. I love dates so that's probably why i like palm trees. Olive trees reminds me of palesine. Palm Trees reminds me of Makkah and Kuwait where I was born and lived for few years.
I don't think they have more significance :)
Netcurtains
19-04-2002, 20:30
Hi,
I'll explain how it is in Christianity so that you can see where
I'm coming from.
A group of people come round an sit together and discuss the bible.
This is a typical example:
They read a Passage which has the Tamarisk Tree.
person one reads the bible passage.
person two says "this sounds similiar to the Tamarisk Tree in ancient Egyptian legends".
person three says "ah but I think it goes back to the Big Oak [elah]tree at Mamre.
person four says "I pruned some trees yesterday"
person five says " I went to Hebron a few years back"
person six says "perhaps it goes back to the Tree of Life or Knowledge in the Garden of Eden".
etc etc.
Everyone puts their OWN THOUGHTS on top of the passage. Reading
it yourself in isolation means you lose 99% of the meaning.
I assumed the Qu'ran is like that - don't you read it and discuss it
together in small groups? How it interrelates with old tales and other religions or to modern day events?
Netcurtains
19-04-2002, 20:32
Yep double checked.
Jews were not circumcised while Moses was in charge.
It was not until his death that wars and circumcision started (with Joshua)
Not really Netty...
In islam, Quraan is above everything... its the word of God and no one will say anything without knowledge.
The way we do it is this... Sis A Muslimah (she's not on IWC but she's my best friend) used to get the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir in Arabic. Sis Randa would get another Tafsir in Arabic. I would get the english translation of the Quraan.... we'd sit... say a prayer.. then read the verses in Arabic then English. Then we read what the tafsir book says and understand what the verse is trying to say... only then do we say stories from ISLAMIC history which relate to this.
The only time I'd say what happened in my personal life is something like... hmm... this for example...
once I was on the bus and was reading Quraan... then a man who is not muslim came and said some annoying things i won't mention them anyways... another non muslim man started to defend me telling him its none of his business etc... anyways.. to get to the bottom line...as soon as that weirdo was quiet I went back to reading my Quraan... the first verse which my eyes caught was this:
And be patient with what they say, and keep away from them in a good way. And leave Me Alone to deal with the beliers (those who deny My Verses, etc.), and those who are in possession of good things of life. And give them respite for a little while. Verily, with Us are fetters (to bind them), and a raging Fire. And a food that chokes, and a painful torment. On the Day when the earth and the mountains will be in violent shake, and the mountains will be a heap of sand poured out and flowing down.
So when i read these... I smiled from deep inside.. it was like the Allah talking to me through the Quraan... but we only speak of relevant verses.... we dont usually talk about trees!! Nor stories like if the verse is speaking about Ibrahim there is nothing for me to add to it.... except if i read something about it in another book and wanted to teach it to the girls....
When we learn the Quraan its more like learn what God wants to tell us not what it reminds you off!
:)
Netcurtains
19-04-2002, 22:39
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-04-02 AT 09:40 PM (GMT)]The Tamarisk Tree was just an example. It was a passage at random. It could be anything. I think this high-lights a difference between the two religions.
One (Christian) - what is important in bible study groups is what other ORDINARY people think.
two (Muslim) - what is important in qu'ran study groups is what the scholars think.
If you look at the two approaches (from the way I have described them) you will note one system of study corresponds to child education and the other system of study corresponds to adult education.
Do you think this is fair comment - the christian version more adult and the Muslim version more child?
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-04-02 AT 10:14 PM (GMT)]No NetCurtains... its not what a scholar thinks in the case of the Quraan.. its what the prophet taught his companions who taught the scholars. I can't pick up the tafsir of any scholar and just learn.. it has to be one that has the qualification to speak about the quraan. its not anyone
So its not what a scholar thinks.. its what does God and his messenger tell us.. what do they want us to learn. That's what' is important..
about whether its adults way or child way... i think we do consider it important to grow up and mature.... we do think and ask questions... I don't accept everything I read... unless it says Allah said or the prophet said I question everything....
Not everyone who calls himself a scholar u accept from... i think islamic way is more adult type of thing.. u research, read opinions, and see who has strongest proof and understand why things are in this manner... you do not simply say.. oh the scholar such and such said this or that and ok i'll believe him...
There are many things which I do not agree with the Scholar of Saudi Arabia (Ibn Baaz). There are things I do not like for Ibn Taymeyya... i can name more ... it doesn't mean i don't read or learn from them... they are people of knowledge... but i read and see their proof.. sometimes i find someone else with stronger proof for such or such ruling.. sometimes i find more people agreeing on one thing.. it depends.
This is the real work... not u saying well i think its this or that... ohh yea?? and how does this make it right?
As I said before... Islamic studies means serious work... we do joke around and laugh and have fun... but it means commitment, loyalty, honesty and determination to purify ourselves and work to please the Lord of the Universe. Effort to learn and actually know what God really wanted to say.
Beside in Tafsir no scholar says his opinion.. they simply tell u the ahadith they collected on this topic... and what the companions said on such verses and comment on them. then they say they think this is the strongest proof or they say this is what the majority thinks. They do not tell u anything from their own minds!! or else i won't read tafsir... how do i know the author knows what he's talking about!!
Netcurtains
19-04-2002, 23:38
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-04-02 AT 10:49 PM (GMT)]I don't see God much in private study - it is an illusion.
God is in the ORDINARY group of people who come
together to read the scriptures. If god exists then he will
guide the very ordinary group to come up with some
worth while discussions. The bible group does not trust
scholarship it trusts the "holy spirit" - as did Mohammed.
Put your trust in ordinary people discussing your religions
holy texts not scholars.
Of course scholarship is important (espeically as a resource)
but the ORDINARY group must be free to break through the
bounds of the thinking of scholars and have their own novel
ideas and thoughts.
This attitude is what changes religion Netty... just think of it.. each group of people will interpret the scripture the way they think... depending on their life, the time they live in etc...
this can't be the way God wants his religion interpretted... god sent us one set of rules for all times all people... this can't be achieved except if we have one set of rules for everyone... or else u don't have a stable religion!
Netcurtains
20-04-2002, 09:30
You said:
"this can't be the way God wants his religion interpretted... god sent us one set of rules for all times all people... this can't be achieved except if we have one set of rules for everyone... or else u don't have a stable religion!
"
I disagree - quite strongly. :-)
Netcurtains
20-04-2002, 11:26
An example for you. This is from 1630 - but it could have been written today:
http://www.dailytelegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2002%2F04%2F20%2Fnfem20.x ml
Medieval Ms was a pioneering feminist
By Nigel Bunyan
(Filed: 20/04/2002)
A 17TH-century manuscript which lay forgotten for years in a town hall vault has provided a new insight into the genesis of the women's movement.
The 182 pages of Womans Worth, believed to have been written between 1630 and 1640 in an English at odds with modern grammar and spelling, expound "a treatise proveinge by sundrie reasons that woemen do excell men".
Handwritten by an author who either declined, or was afraid, to disclose her name, the volume roundly criticises men and provides what it advances as Biblical proof of the pre-eminence of women.
In Chapter 1, headed "Eve more excellent than Adam", Ms X argues that the name of her feminine forebear signifies "life"; that Eve is the mother of all men and women living, and that Adam "signifieth nothing else but clay, or red earth".
She then goes on to expound her belief that Eve was less sinful than Adam, saying: "Women do excel men in virtues and rare endowments of the minde, and I think we shall finde that herein also women doe farre outstrip men."
Successive chapters then propose that women are more religious, more charitable, more valiant and wiser than men.
Towards the end of her treatise, Ms X expounds the view that "women bare rule over men".
But here, at least, she displays a sense of humour, writing: "I say that shee should have the preheminency and bare rule over men, but I have no sooner spoken of power and authoritie but mee thinkes I heare some man begin to interrupt mee and go about to stop my mouth with that punishment which was layd upon the women."
The unpublished manuscript was discovered by Alan Davies, the heritage officer of Wigan council, as he rooted through dusty boxes in the vaults of Leigh town hall, Greater Manchester.
Noticing the title of the volume, he became intrigued; not least because it pre-dates the modern women's movement by more than two centuries.
Mr Davies asserts that the Leigh manuscript is pre-dated by only one significant work on the feminist theme - Agrippa's De Nobilitate et Praecellentia Foeminei Sexus (On the Nobility and Pre-eminence of Women), written in 1529.
"It's an exciting find," said Mr Davies. "The book seems to have had a clasp or lock on it at one time to keep it secret, perhaps because it would have been very dangerous to let the men know what she was up to.
"We have no idea who the authoress was. We have dated the book from the binding and the style of the script."
He added: "If this private work had been widely published at the time, who knows how events might have been brought forward by at least a few generations."
Mr Davies's excitement is shared by Prof Kari McBride, from the Department of Women's Studies at Arizona University, who describes the manuscript as "this little treasure".
NetCurtains...
I guess we simply disagree on this issue.... Islam tells us that the religion of God was one religion from the time of Adam will the coming of prophet Mohammad. God wanted one thing... it is not a changing thing.... thus... God didn't leave anything forgotten, didn't leave anything hidden. With prophet mohammad, Allah the final revelation... before the death of the prophet peace be upon him Allah revealed the last verse which says: Today I have perfected your religion and accepted islam as a religion for you.
That was it... the end!!
by that time... religion was complete...nothing to add.. no place for ur opinion or mine.. .it was only God's opinion... God's way.
Muslims believe that because Christianity was not completed, thus is the case why opinion can be found... but when Allah sent after Jesus the prophet Mohammad peace be upon him, to correct what has gone wrong with christianity and to ADD what was not yet added from the commands of God and clarify things which are not 100% understood... by that... God perfected his religion.
Islam addresses everything from our daily shores to our day of judgement. We are taught what are the etiquites of eating drinking, useing washroom, walking down the street, being with ur wife or family... EVERYTHING. As for opinions about issues... we have rulings for everything.... the only place we have chioce is the places where God has not issued a command...in which case we are allowed to decide for our own... to give an example..
The ruling on music in islam is this... any instrument is not allowed. Any words which are a waste of time (love, passion...bla bla.. waste of time) and thus not allowed. However, Allah and the prophet has not spoke of the Duff (something like a drum) and has not said anything on islamic nashids (songs). Now here are two places for opinions and each can choose what makes more sense to him/her.
The examples are many... islam is not a religion where u have no choice...i can simply ignore the command and go on.... i'll be judged on whether I follow commands of god or not..its my choise... its my responsiblity to do things.
so... ur example on women movement thing is useless to me... I truly believe that God would tell us.. here is the way.. if u follow it.. u get there... Its very unfair that god would leave us to do things as we please then punish us for doing it a specific way. I think its just fair that God would tell us the rules...and then we play by the rules or we be punished.
Peace to all members!
So rightly said sister!
Imagine if you have a black and white TV, the only colours are what? black and white, quite simple. From the start of time, people have been the issue of either they are believers living with the laws of God, happy in this world and in the next, the other group being those who did not obey him or those who resorted to different colours...so to say..!
If you dont try the ice cream, who you know what it is? how it feels? or even how it tastes?
So read up on islam...read the quran and listen to the arabic recitation of the quran...it will be hard to understand with your mind and brain...but who knows about the heart?...your heart will understand.
Islam is the same 'way of life' from the start and it will be until the end...those who wise to 'ride' on it..will finish and recieve things which you have not seen, and those who dont, it is there choice and death is a very good friend...!
.........
:)
Bin Ziad dear...
there is really no such thing as death.... we all 'die' but start the life in the grave (or if u want to call it Barzakh) and then when that is over we get up to day of judgement... then we are either in hell or in heavens and there is no death there. :)
>:)
>
>Bin Ziad dear...
>
>there is really no such thing as death.... we all 'die' but
>start the life in the grave (or if u want to call it
>Barzakh) and then when that is over we get up to day of
>judgement... then we are either in hell or in heavens and
>there is no death there. :)
Yes, dear, thankyou for pointing that out!
I meant, that death or 'die' will be around to catch, so those who dont follow the way sent to them by almighty god will not be succesful..
Maybe Uni sisters dont understand that..who knows?
So those who want to run away from 'die' (dont make sense, but you seem to think it is die)...those who want to run from death...can! But it will be with you like oyur right/left hand..always there..so be aware..and try to gather good actions and deeds, for you cannot take your uni certificates or any mansions (if i have any) you cannot take anything, came to this world naked and will leave this world naked...deeds are the only currency in the herafter..!
So carry on about the tree...! Quite weird subject..but they do give us oxygen...!
..........
LOL!!
Assalamu alikom...
BinZiad ur post gave me a laugh... thanks :)
ok ok yea I know what u said just wanted to point out that there is no such thing as death after judgement day to those who might not know it :)
What do u mean university students don't understand it...LOL... yea maybe we just think beyond what is intended ;) [read between the lines.. that's what they teach us..lol]
But please don't remind me of university... I seriously hate it.. especially that i am doing my final exams now... so i hate it big time!
And thanks for the reminder... do u we have enough lagguage for our final trip...
here is an interesting article on this "luggage" thing and the "currency" in the hereafter...intersting stuff:
----
PERSONAL ID PASSPORT
Passenger Name: Human Being
Background: Of Mud; Dirt; Dust and clay
Address: Planet Earth
TRAVEL INFORMATION
Departing From: Life on Earth
Destination: The Hereafter
Time of Departure: "No soul knoweth what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul knoweth in what land it will die." (Surah Lukmaan, Ayah 34)
Time of Arrival: "And the stupor of death will come in truth; that is what you were trying to escape!" (Surah Qaaf, Ayah 19)
HAPPY TRIP!
Permitted Luggage on Trip: (The following is allowed for passengers to bring on the trip)
1- White Wrapping Cloth That's About Two Meters in Length
2- Good Doing and Deeds
3- A good child of the passenger who will pray for him/her when they have departed |
4- Islamic knowledge, which is beneficiary to passenger(s)
5- On-going Fund/Sadaqah (Money/food/charity constantly being given away on behalf of the traveler of which he/she will gain hasanat after his/her departure)
6- Other luggage/belongings may not be permitted nor will benefit passengers on this trip
Rules for your Trip:
It is required for all travelers participating in this trip to follow all instructions and information in Allah's book -The Holy Quran- and the Sunah of His Prophet and Messenger (Muhammad {SAW}).
Examples of Required Rules:
- Obedience, Love, Worship, and Fear of Allah
- The constant belief and remembrance of death
- The awareness that nothing awaits man at his/her destination (Hereafter) other than Heaven(Janna) or Hell (Jahanam)
- Respect, Good Treatment, and Obedience of Parents
- Make sure everything you ate, drank, or wore in your life was halal (permitted and allowed in Islam) , not haram
- For more information, please contact Allah's book- The Holy Quran- and follow the sunah of the Messenger(Peace be Upon Him)
NOTIFICATION:
Please note your call(contact) is free of charge, as you are always welcome to contact the two mentioned above. There is no need to reconfirm your registration. There is no limit as to the weight or how much of your good deeds or any other allowed luggage(listed above) for you to bring along with you on your final trip. Be supplied with as much good deeds for your trip as you wish. Enjoy Your Trip!
Brothers and Sisters, you must be aware that we will ALL go on this trip, be it tomorrow, in five minutes, or in 80 years, your departing day will come. So please, be prepared for it and help others prepare themselves for heir FINAL TRIP by kindly reminding them about it.
The very fact that you have been reminded of death is a sign of Allah's Mercy and Kindness on you.
----------
ok now we can go back to trees as Br. BinZiad said... yea i too thought its weird.... but... some parts interesting... :) made me look up all the trees in the quraan which are things i didn't know :)
They don't just give us oxygen... but they are a sign of Allah's mercy...
every time i come to this thread i get to flashbacks...one is of Saudi and Kuwait... and the second is of the Dead See in Jordan where there are tones of palm trees.... amazingly these are the only two places where trees really meant something to me... maybe because there aren't many trees there so they are special... here in canada there is a tree every meter (yes they keep the air clean Alhamdulillah) but.. it because a usual thing... nothing special about them any more :)
[this was for Netty since he likes to know what trees mean to people]
Ok NetCurtains listen...
I didn't mean to offend u or say christianity is incomplete... what I said is... if religion is to be decided by people... it is always changing and not settled.
I dont' care what happened in 1700s or whenever... I care of what Jesus brought...!! Did they use profanities? Is this what Jesus taught Christians?? Or did he say don't use it!?? Did Jesus tell women to go out simi naked???
These things are what matters to me not what people did!
We are talking now religion... i.e. what does God want when he sent us the Quraan, Bible or Torah! What did he want to tell us. This is religion!
As for Christian way of life... well maybe Jesus didn't get enough time to address "WAY OF LIFE". He came and was trying to teach the basics... he might have not had time to teach everything..... how long did Jesus stay on earth?? I'd be interested to know.
"If Christianity was incomplete don't you think some new religion would has taken its place by now?" how about ISlam??
Statistics done by mosques in the area I live say we have an average of 2 converts everyday. :)
After september 11 alone more than 5000 converted. Doesn't that seem interesting at all Netty?
Now as for what u mentioned about islamic religion and how it started.... ok. I don't know who gave u this "Bahlra" story.. I never heard of the name... Byzentine monasteries... where exactly was that.. (use modern day maps please i'm bad enough with geography).
At the time of the prophet, yes there were Christians... the most known story is of that monk who was waiting for "The prophet" mentioned in the Bible. When Prophet Mohammad got the first revelation and was scared because he didn't know what to think.... his wife (who happened to be that monk's relative) took the prophet to him... and the monk, upon hearing the story, said to him... By God the one who came to you is the same one who came to Moses and Jesus.
There are more stories if ur interested in Christians in Arabia I can locate few.
Netty... Christianity believe me doesn't address everything... simple thing like... hmm... what does the bible say on interest?? (was this there during time of Jesus??) What does the bible say on killing animals with electricity??? What does the bible say on dying ur hair?? What does the bible say on putting ur parents in retirement homes all by themselves???
I am not trying to tell u that ur religion is bad... Allah said there is no compulsion in religion... each of us has a right to choose what he thinks is right and be respected for his choise. I do not tell u ur bad or ur religion is bad... but.. what i'm saying is this... the reason i personally am not a christian (and i have actually considered christianity before studying islam if that is of any relevance) is this... christianity has basics but is not complete and by that i mean.. it doesn't have EVERYTHING in it. Like it or not! The fact that most of Christians debate whether Jesus is God or not is enough to make u wonder what religion is this that people don't know who is their God?!!
In islam, we have sects... but we all have ONE God and ONE book and ONE prophet. We may disagree on some practices and ways of worship which are minor things when compared to the belief itself.
Ok Netty....
I will discontinue the discussion as it is getting no where.. I wo'nt convince u... you won't convince me... it made me laugh when u said its easier to be a muslim than to be a christian.... my muslim converts would probably disagree.
Anyways.... since u believe Jesus is god sometimes... good for you... as for me.. I will end this discussion with this:
Say: "O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)! I worship not that which you worship, Nor will you worship that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. Nor will you worship that which I worship. To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)." [Quraan chapter 109]
The prophet peace be upon him highly praised those who stop arguing although they know they are right. This ends this discussion.
peace
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