View Full Version : Questions About Israel
Greetings All!
A couple of weeks ago, I heard a radio commentator on an Evangelical Protestant radio station in the United States say that there will never be peace in Israel. He claimed that it is Jewish and Christian belief that the Davidic kingdom will one day be restored, while it is Islamic belief that the entire Arabic penninsula, including Israel-Palestine will ultimately always be Islamic. He stated that the very existence of a state of Israel in the Middle East (even if it were a tiny little city state) creates a crisis in faith for all Muslims world-wide.
Is this guy correct in his interpretation of Islamic belief?
Also, I read in the newest copy of Newsweek that I received in the mail yesterday that a state sponsored Saudi newspaper ran an article that claimed that Jews drink human blood during the passover (which is completely untrue).
Any truth to the allegation that such an article ran in the Middle East?
Finally, I am curious to know -- who lived in Israel before the UN agreements in 1948 (Jews, Arabs, or a mixture of both)?
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
vancouver
26-03-2002, 22:39
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-03-02 AT 00:22 AM (GMT)]You may not want comments from me on this subject and my comments may not be correct. But I always thought that it was mostly Palestinians that inhabited Israel before the 'holocaust' in world war 2. Then afterwards the Jews decided to take back Isreal by force. I have always felt Israel were at fault for not respecting the people that were living there. As I said I only have personal opinions on this and stand to be corrected if there is more information on the subject.
The Jews would not eat any blood. It is against the Mosiac Law. I don't believe they are as strict as the early christians were on that point though. They would die rather than eat blood. The Romans used to starve them and then offer them blood sausages(black pudding)while imprisoned. They refused to eat them and many died as a result.
Peace to all members!
"It doesn't mean that I advocate violence, but at the same time,
I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don't call it
violence when it's self-defense, I call it intelligence."
"Power in defense of freedom is greater than power in
behalf of tyranny and oppression."
"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one
can be at peace unless he has his freedom."
"The zionist argument to justify Israel's present occupation of
Arab Palestine has no intelligent or legal basis in history."
BinZiad
vancouver
27-03-2002, 02:06
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-03-02 AT 01:08 AM (GMT)]Does that mean I was correct in my opinion about Israel taking Palestine by force and inhumanely treating the people who already lived there? Your reply did not make any sense to my post.
Greetings BinZiad!
I hope you did not think that my questions were meant rhetorically or sarcastically. If anyone read them that way, I apologize. That was not my intent. I really just don't know the answer to the three questions raised:
1) Is it Islamic religious belief that there will never be a permanent state of Israel (or any non-Muslim state) on the Arab penninsula, including current Israel-Palestine?
2) Are there currently state owned Saudi newspapers that print articles saying that Jews drink human blood?
3) Who lived in the region of Israel-Palestine prior to 1948? Were there large numbers of Jews there, even if there was no Jewish state?
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
greetings to everyone...
speaking as a palestinian, and a muslim woman... here is my understanding... We know that no matter what.... Israel wil never have the land. I think (not 100% sure) that the prophet said we will win the state at the end (muslims please do correct me if i'm mistaken).
Jews and Muslims lived together forever and ever. Palestine was an islamic state.... I was told by a political science student friend that Jordan took over.... and then I believe the Jews tried to make it their land. This is when the conflict started... Muslims will never (speaking ideally) be under the rule of a non muslim. Thus, when the land was under the rule of Jordan, I do not think there should be much problem.... the country is still islamic state... when the Jews try to take over and make it a jewish state... this is when problems arise and muslims will never agree.
Besides, one of the things the Jews want is to distroy the Masjid al aqsa to build some tomb or some i don't know what... well the masjid is a holy site for muslims... we wil never allow it even if they claim that its their right or whatever.
Long time ago, we all know that Islamic state extended from as far east as China to as far west in Africa too. This i believe includes Palestine. No one has the right to take it away!
The recent events increased the conflict because israel has crossed the boarders they agreed on since 1948 (am i right??)
I do not think any one has the right to treat us muslims in palestine as less than we deserve to be treated, as equals... for Allah created us all equal. The Jews believe they are the "chosen" people and thus are superior to many... i am sorry i wouldn't buy that!
To me, i believe it is a war there... and it is not a just war... everyone helps israel... no one is on the side of palestinian.... and israel has weapons... palestinians are not even allowed to get weapons... israel can get the ruler they wish... palestinians wish they could get rid of stupid yaser arafat...
it is very sad, unjust, and heart breaking.... muslims wake up!! We all need to stand up together, hand in hand... to help the palestinian.
just my thoughts... no one has to believe me.
vancouver
28-03-2002, 01:56
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-03-02 AT 00:56 AM (GMT)]It seems to me that there in Israel lies the heart of the problem of Sept 11th 2001. No one in the West(Governments I mean)wants to see a just solution in Palestine. They want the status-quo. The sad thing is that according to prophesy something much worse than Sept 11th is going to happen and after that we will all lose a great deal of our freedom in some kind of world totalitarian regime that is to receive its power from the western world in the form of a rejuvinated UN.
Assalamu Alaikum !
"I think (not 100% sure) that the prophet said we will win the state at the end (muslims please do correct me if i'm mistaken)."
It is true that there will be a war, Insha Allah. It is also true that we will win, Insha Allah. As far as i am aware, and Allah knows best, it will be under the leadership of Imam Mahdi.
Wassalam,
Asif.
:)
Jazak Allah khair..... we're all waiting for Mahdi inshaAllah... for many more things than winning palestine...
The following is in reply to jcecil3's messages.
"1) Is it Islamic religious belief that there will never be a permanent state of Israel (or any non-Muslim state) on the Arab penninsula, including current Israel-Palestine?" is what jcecil3 asked.
Go read the following article, plz.
http://www.islaam.com/Article.asp?id=402
A line from this article says:
"The flourishing of Jerusalem will happen by the hands of Muslims, by the will of Allah, after it will be retrieved from the Jews."
".....AFTER IT WILL BE RETRIEVED FROM THE JEWS."
This is an answer to your questions.
Also, Palestine is not in the Arabian Peninsula. The Arabian Peninsula consists of the following countries:
Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait.
Greetings All!
Thanks everyone! Most of my questions were answered.
It's disheartening to me over here in America to discover that there are such strong religious beliefs on both sides (Jews think the land was promised to them by YHWH, Arabs think the land was promised to them by Allah). I don't see any way to resolve the conflict so long as both sides keep appealing to these beliefs.
I'm not really sure what the majority consensus of Christian belief is, but it seems that many (if not the majority) agree with Vancouver that the very existence of Israel foreshadows the end times.
I, personally, am agnostic about the whole idea of prophecy being played out in the Middle East. I figure that whether the world is ending or not, I should always live as though I am ready to meet God face to face.
I've been praying for peace.
May God bless!
jcecil3
You can look over on the Current Events section of this board, under the thread "Did any of our Saudi friends see this?" for a discussion of the article in the Saudi newspaper. In short, yes, it did run.
What is your source for the information about the early Christians not eating blood?
>It's disheartening to me over here in America to discover
>that there are such strong religious beliefs on both sides
>(Jews think the land was promised to them by YHWH, Arabs
>think the land was promised to them by Allah). I don't see
>any way to resolve the conflict so long as both sides keep
>appealing to these beliefs.
I disagree with this. The problem is not everybody's beliefs, it's how they apply those beliefs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is nothing in either Islam or Judaism that would preclude *sharing* the land that they both believe to be theirs. Has anyone here ever read the Tom Clancy book that deals with this subject? I'll have to look up the exact title. It has a unique solution to the Palestine problem in it.
>
>I'm not really sure what the majority consensus of Christian
>belief is, but it seems that many (if not the majority)
>agree with Vancouver that the very existence of Israel
>foreshadows the end times.
I don't know about the whole "majority consensus of Christian belief", but I can tell you what most evangelical Christians believe.
The fact that Israel did, indeed, become a nation again in 1948 is a direct fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, but it is not necessarily a sign that the end is near. In the end times there will be (among other things) wars and rumors of wars, so by that standard the current happenings in Israel could be a sign that the end times are here.
We also believe that the land will, ultimately, belong to Israel, but we do not know how that will happen. And that is not to say that stealing it would be OK if it fulfilled the prophecy. It's just saying that, ultimately, Israel will have her land again.
>I, personally, am agnostic about the whole idea of prophecy
>being played out in the Middle East. I figure that whether
>the world is ending or not, I should always live as though I
>am ready to meet God face to face.
I'm not an agnostic about the fulfillment of prophecy, but I agree with you that we should all be ready to meet the Lord at any time. Because, after all, we might.
What hurts me more than anything, jcecil3, is the fact that you said:
"Jews think the land was promised to them by YHWH, Arabs think the land was promised to them by Allah"
Arab Muslims constitute ONLY 20% of the 1 billion or more Muslims of the world. You made mention of the Arabs, but you forgot those 800 million non Arab Muslims, including myself, who feel very strongly about the just Palestinian cause. It's a shame that you, after such a long time on this website, still think that only the Arabs care about Palestine and Palestinians. And if this is not what you intended, then you certainly didn't say (or imply) that in your previous post(s).
I wish to declare to all my Arab Muslim brothers and sisters, on behalf of the non-Arab Muslim people, we will support in you in your just struggle, and we are with you, all of us.
With regards to your questions. I answered one of them.
As for the other 2, one of them asked about "2) Are there currently state owned Saudi newspapers that print articles saying that Jews drink human blood?"
I do not know. And, honestly, this is the last topic that will be on my mind.
"3) Who lived in the region of Israel-Palestine prior to 1948? Were there large numbers of Jews there, even if there was no Jewish state? "
Palestinians lived there. I do not know about the Jewish population.
Greetings Asif!
I stand correctly chastised. I'm sorry. Please forgive me.
Peace!
jcecil3
vancouver
29-03-2002, 01:32
Greetings Tita
This is the information you requested in regard to the early christians and blood.
Blood ***
Observed since apostolic times. The Jerusalem council sent its decision to the Christian congregations to be observed. (Ac 16:4) About seven years after the Jerusalem council issued the decree, Christians continued to comply with the "decision that they should keep themselves from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood and what is strangled and from fornication." (Ac 21:25) And more than a hundred years later, in 177 C.E., in Lyons (now in France), when religious enemies falsely accused Christians of eating children, a woman named Biblis said: "How would such men eat children, when they are not allowed to eat the blood even of irrational animals?"-The Ecclesiastical History, by Eusebius, V, I, 26.
Early Christians abstained from eating any sort of blood. In this regard Tertullian (c. 155-a. 220 C.E.) pointed out in his work Apology (IX, 13, 14): "Let your error blush before the Christians, for we do not include even animals' blood in our natural diet. We abstain on that account from things strangled or that die of themselves, that we may not in any way be polluted by blood, even if it is buried in the meat. Finally, when you are testing Christians, you offer them sausages full of blood; you are thoroughly well aware, of course, that among them it is forbidden; but you want to make them transgress." Minucius Felix, a Roman lawyer who lived until about 250 C.E., made the same point, writing: "For us it is not permissible either to see or to hear of human slaughter; we have such a shrinking from human blood that at our meals we avoid the blood of animals used for food."-Octavius, XXX, 6.
Integrity Involved. From the time that the new covenant was inaugurated over the blood of Jesus Christ, Christians have recognized the life-giving value of this blood through Jehovah's arrangement and through Jesus as the great High Priest who "entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance for us." Through faith in the blood of Christ, Christians have had their consciences cleansed from dead works so that they may render sacred service to the living God. They are concerned about their physical health, but they are primarily and far more seriously concerned with their spiritual health and their standing before the Creator. They want to maintain their integrity to the living God, not denying the sacrifice of Jesus, not counting it as of no value, and not trampling it underfoot. For they are seeking, not the life that is transitory, but everlasting life.-Heb 9:12, 14, 15; 10:28, 29.
The bible in both the hebrew and christian greek scriptures is very strict about not eating blood. It was discussed along with circumcision. It was decided that circumcision was no longer required but the not eating of blood was a strict commandment.
All the best
vancouver
vancouver
29-03-2002, 01:48
Greetings
The land was only promised to Israel on certain conditions. They failed to keep the conditions set them and God disowned them as a nation fully by 36 C.E. three and a half years after the death of Jesus and coinciding with the first Gentiles becoming christians. Then in 70 C.E. as predicted in the scriptures God allowed the Romans to destroy the temple and all the records of the Jews. Therefore today no Jew can prove that he/she is a descendant of the original Jews. Now it is God's purpose to have people living together in peace all over the earth. Before that happens however there is going to be the greatest tribulation this earth has ever witnessed.
Regards
vancouver
>Greetings BinZiad!
Greetings and peace to you and to everyOne!
>I hope you did not think that my questions were meant
>rhetorically or sarcastically. If anyone read them that way,
>I apologize. That was not my intent. I really just don't
>know the answer to the three questions raised:
I understand you postion, i just posted some words from brother shabbaz, as known as malcolm x, and i was thinking of the cause and effort of the people of palestine for thier freedom and thier right to thier OWN land.
Now i will help as much as i can...ok?
>1) Is it Islamic religious belief that there will never be a
>permanent state of Israel (or any non-Muslim state) on the
>Arab penninsula, including current Israel-Palestine?
"...The existence of a Jewish state in the heart of the Muslim World and the occupation of Masjid Al-Aqsa is symbolic of the weakness of the Muslim Ummah and Muslims' own straying from the path of Islam in embracing imported ideologies. Masjid Al-Aqsa, Baitul-Maqdis, and the Blessed Lands of Palestine do not belong to the Palestinians or Arabs alone but to all Muslims, and only when the Muslim's return to their faith and see the conflict in its real terms can they liberate Palestine as was done in the 12th Century by Salah al-Din Al-Ayyubi who, while not an Arab, knew his Islamic responsibility in undertaking the civilization struggle against the West and Islam..."
This quotation should help!!
"...The significance of Palestine in the Islamic faith is evident by the frequent references to it in both the Qur'an and the Ahadith of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The greatest significance of Palestine for the Muslims is that it contains Baitul-Maqdis, the holiest place in Islam outside of the Hijaz. Both Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock are built in the area of the Baitul-Maqdis.
Baitul-Maqdis in Palestine was the center of Isra' and Mi'raj of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).In the Qur'an Allah says: "Glory be to the One who took his servant on a journey by night from Al-Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca to Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa whose precincts we have blessed....." Holy Qur'an, Surah Isra', Verse 1.
Baitul-Maqdis in Palestine was the second Mosque established on earth after Al- Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca. In the hadith Abu Dhar said: "Once I asked Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) what was the first mosque established on the earth; he said Al- Masjid Al-Haram. Then I asked him: then, which mosque? He replied: Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa. I then asked him what was the time period between the establishment of the two mosque; and he said: forty years." Al-Bukhari
Baitul-Maqdis in Palestine was the first Qibla (direction in which Muslims face when praying). The Muslims faced towards Baitul-Maqdis when praying during the entire Meccan period of Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) life and for the first 16 months of the Medinian period, after which Allah ordered the Qibla to be changed towards the Kaaba in Mecca.
Muslims consider prayers in Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa to be equivalent to 500 times the prayers in any other mosque except for Al-Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca and Al-Masjid An-Nabawi in Madina. In the Hadith Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "Prayers in Al-Masjid Al-Haram are equivalent to 100,000 prayers, and prayers in my Masjid (in Madina) are equivalent to 1000 prayers, and prayers in Baitul-Maqdis are equivalent to 500 prayers." Tabarani
In addition there are several verses in the Holy Qur'an and several Ahadith of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) that describe both the significance of Baitul-Maqdis in Islam and the fact that Allah has blessed the land around it. The various Qur'anic revelations and Prophetic statements concerning the blessed land of Palestine endeared the land to the companions (Sahaba) of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) to such an extent that when Umar ibn Al-Khattab entered the region for the first time he announced that all the lands of Palestine would be part of the Islamic Waqf for the Muslim generations to come. After studying the various Qur'anic revelations, Prophetic traditions and practices of the companions to the Prophet ,no rational mind could deny that Palestine as a blessed and holy land is of extreme importance and significance to every believer in Islam...."
This should also be noted;
"..The history of Palestine represents the history of Islam from the first prophet of Islam, Adam (PBUH), to the last prophet of Islam, Muhammad (PBUH). Palestine is the land of prophets who were sent with the message of Islam and hence should not be ruled by anyone other than those who uphold the message of Islam by implementing its laws and regulations.
Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa was the second mosque established on earth forty years after the establishment of Al-Masjid Al-Haram...."
I hope this helps...and i think the brother has answered it correctly!!
I do not wish to venture into the other two and i am a bit tight for time...so excuse me and i hope i have helped you in some way and dont take it the wrong way, but if someone comes and kicks you, batters you from your house, will you not be angry?...imagine, that your house is being destroyed and every jew has a option of shooting anyone they 'seem' to be a target, even a school kid?...so the real issue is very much worse, than any words or pictures can explain..
>Peace and Blessings!
>jcecil3
Same to you and to everyone here.
BinZiad!
What do you make of God's promises to restore the nation of Israel?
vancouver
02-04-2002, 10:04
Greetings
God will never restore the fleshly nation of Israel. Israel as a nation will never accept that the Messiah came and in fact most Israelites have little or no belief in God. As a nation they are terrorists and God will treat them as such when he destroys the Governments on this earth.
The Christian foundation was built on the original Israelites that accepted Jesus but others from the Gentiles were grafted in to complete the foundation and as a whole this 144,000 were called 'spiritual Israelites' where in fact only a small percentage of them were actually Israelites. The other sheep of christians also called 'the great crowd' are from all nations and tribes that are to be subjects of 'God's Kingdom' ruled by Christ and the 144,000 'spiritual Israelites'.
All the best
vancouver
May Allah distroy the Israeli's one by one.... by Palestinian freedom fighters!
vancouver
02-04-2002, 16:47
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-04-02 AT 10:40 PM (GMT)]Greetings
We all know that vengeance belongs to God and he will never use people to take vengeance on his behalf. God has his people all over the earth giving out his message including Palestine. God would not want his people involved in the bloodshed of this world which only results in more innocent victims. The only solution to world peace has to be the kingdom of God which needs no humans to physically fight for it. The power God has through his angelic forces that can direct death-dealing blows to the guilty without affecting the innocent is more than enough to solve all the worlds problems. God will do just that at the appointed time and not when we want it done. All he asks of his earthly servants is to pursue peace and to pray for their enemies so that they can have a change of heart and turn to God. He has never commanded us to retaliate to political or religious foes.
All the best
vancouver
vancouver
02-04-2002, 20:00
>Peace to all members!
>
>"It doesn't mean that I advocate violence, but at the same
>time,
>I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don't
>call it
>violence when it's self-defense, I call it intelligence."
Greetings
THE WAY OF LIFE
Now this is the way of life: first, "you shall love God, who made you"; second, "your neighbour as yourself" and "do to others what you would have them do to you". The teaching of these words is this: "Bless those who curse you", and "pray for your enemies", and "fast for those who persecute you". "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even "sinners" love those who love them. But "you must love those who hate you", and you will not have an enemy. Abstain from physical and bodily cravings "If someone hits you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also", and you will be perfect. If someone "forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles"; "if someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic also"; "if someone takes from you what belongs to you, do not demand it back", for you cannot do so. "Give to everyone who asks you, and do not demand it back"; for the Father wants something from his own gifts to be given to everyone. Blessed is the one who gives according to the command, for such a person is innocent. Woe to the one who receives: if, on the one hand, someone who is in need receives, this person is innocent, but the one who does not have need will have to explain why and for what purpose he received, and upon being imprisoned will be interrogated about what he has done, and will not get out until he has repaid the last cent. But it has also been said concerning this: "Let your gift sweat in your hands until you know to whom to give it".
This is the best way to treat oppressors. With kindness and prayers rather than with the sword. If they want the land, let them have it. Life is much more important than possessions that don't really belong to us anyway. We cannot take any possessions with us when we die. Those that take what does not belong to them will be accountable to God.
All the best
vancouver
Greetings Once Again!
Netty drew me into a web site hosted by atheists. Under the humor thread, someone suggested we Christians convert the atheist to Christianity, and bring them here to be converted to Islam (lol).
Anyway, on these atheists sites, I ran accross the article in a link below by Muslims turned atheists. In light of the topic above, I'm curious how peaceful Muslims repsond:
http://www.secularislam.org/articles/call.htm
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Netcurtains
02-04-2002, 23:21
Hi,
Jcecil3 - got to remember atheists lie just like everyone else. Not everything on that site looks real. You might have been had. It gives loads of horrible stories but gives little evidence that any of them are actually true. Heresay is not the same as Thomas putting a hand in a wound.
And to think . . . other Muslims on this site told me that nobody is actually calling for Israel to be destroyed.
Greetings!
Netty -- I know that atheist lie and embellish truth like everyone else. What I found interesting in the article were the quotations from the Qur'an that seem to incite violence.
Of course, we Christians have the same "problem" with Old Testament passages (as you can see in my dialogue with the atheists). So, I really do not post this link under the assumption that it makes Islam somehow wrong or inferior to Christianity. We all have uncomfortable histories and verses of our holy books that can be misunderstood.
Rather, I post the link in the hopes of clearing up my own inherited prejudices about Islamic jihadists controlling the Islamic religion, and in the hope of allowing peaceful Muslims to provide Christians, Jews, and even atheists a way of speaking with the Bin Ladin's of the world on their own terms (i.e. how to correctly interpret the Qur'anic verses sited in the article in a peaceful way)...
Rasha: When you say you want Israel destroyed, is it the nation of Israel (the institution), or is it the people that you want destroyed?
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Netcurtains
03-04-2002, 19:19
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-04-02 AT 09:01 PM (GMT)]Hi,
It is a good working assumption that most people in all
religions are a certain percentage of the time totally
atheist but too scared or too crafty to be open about it.
Why do Xians believe that Jesus rose from the dead? There are
alternative views?
a) Some muslims think he had a stand in - a double.
b) Some jews think he had help from the Roman Centurian
so often mentioned in the bible (the one whose daughter
was cured).
c) Some think Mary and the other women keep a deep secret
(where did they go after penacost?).
d) some think all three of the above.
We say would the 12 apostles have died for their faith
if they did not know it was true? But in actuality there
is little evidence that they did in fact die for their faith.
If the evidence was clear cut I am relatively certain
it would be mentioned in the bible. There is more evidence of
Jesus dying for his faith then there is for the 12 apostles dying
for their faith (I'm not saying they didn't I'm just saying there is
little evidence).
So why do I believe in Jesus?
I believe in Jesus because if God exists then it makes rational
sense that he would want to interrelate with us in a meaningful
way and teach us something important about ourselves and god.
God is not in religion as He always seems to point out the short comings of religion and even called St Peter Satan at one point (is jesus having a dig at me and catholics).
God is not in loud roars, or in the thunder or lightning - she/he is in the small, almost silent whisper to be a decent human being. To
most of all love children and bring them up as best you can.
If God is real I am sure he/she would want to interrelate with us in a physical, real flesh and blood way. It is a logical conclusion. From the very first story in the bible, Adam and Eve, it appears "holy" men (the writers of these stories) all assume god likes to interrelate with us. Perhaps the most famous religious thinker, Mohammed, touched on this 'Holy Spirit' theme.
Who in the past 2 million years is the charecter that has the most evidence and personality to fit the bill? The BIGGEST LOUDEST TOUGHEST or a two bit carpenter in a two bit town in a two bit country (no offence)?
That is why I believe. If I believe in God then it has to be Jesus. Could I believe in a different God if Jesus was proved by Scientists not to be god? What religion or religious leader can compare? did Mohammed have a virgin birth? Will Mohammed come back to the earth again? Am I holy enough to start my own religion? no of course not. I have no alternative to Jesus - I am stuck by my own rationality.
Protestants and Muslims often say to us Catholics: "why do you need a priest when you can go to god direct - he/she has no intermediary and needs no intermediary and wants no intermediary". Do you see my logic? All Holy men/women agree "God goes direct - there is no need for a intermediary". This logic leads a rational mind into thinking god PERSONALLY must deliver his OWN message. Was Jesus the message or not - that is the question?
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You hit the nail on the head with that one Netty. I am Christian for the same reasons.
So, though I find it fascinating that there is some evidence in our favor, and we can explain away inconsistencies, etc...It is really the power of the story that keeps my faith going, even if there were no evidence and too many contraditctions to explain.
It is the story of this radical, wine drinking, story telling, humorous and rancourous Jewish carpenter turned preacher of love and inclusivity....who was killed in the manner of a slave and proclaimed risen three days later...,and the mind-blowing idea that this is the human face of God....WOW
Oooops. Sorry if I'm preaching. Got a little excited and carried away. I meant to only confirm what I've been saying elswhere -- that beauty is the test of religious truth.
Netcurtains
03-04-2002, 22:12
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-04-02 AT 10:14 PM (GMT)]The downside to thoughts like that are:
If no religious people see it apart from
those already in that religion it makes the argument weak.
Scientific proof is generally accepted by most scientists.
If a religious argument is presented to religious people
and is not accepted by them it could be that there is something
wrong with the argument. There either must be flaws in our
argument or there is something wrong with the religious world.
Lets assume we are correct - our argument is correct. This means the flaw is in the religious establishment. What "improvements" can be made to the religious establishment?
Should there be something like "the Royal academy of science" - "a Royal Academy of Religion" - a body of learned theologians from all faiths that decide whether a certain religious argument has merit or has flaws? Would we, as individuals, be able to give up 'aspects' of our faith (as we would expect others to do) if the religious "experts" pointed out flaws? Who would get on such an "academy" - would they be scholars or people who have done "great deeds of goodness" or both?
It was only in the 18-19th Century Science pulled itself out of the mire of rubbish.
Its time Religion got in on the act. Followers - such as myself and my kids deserve some effort to be made by all these clerics. Look at this web site - full of Christian and Muslim FOLLOWERS. Does anyone convince anyone of anything - of course not. None of us are experts, we're just mouthing out stuff that has been past on to us. Come on Clerics get your act in gear. What are you all afraid of?
vancouver
03-04-2002, 22:48
Hello netcurtains
Science still has a lot of catching up to do. It has only scratched the surface of what is yet to be discovered and many theories have yet to be changed again and again. As far as knowing what God has in store for us, that too is vast in comparrison to what he has done for us thus far.
All the best
vancouver
Netcurtains
04-04-2002, 07:16
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-04-02 AT 05:18 PM (GMT)]When you ask questions to god sometimes you get a reply.
This is an email I received this morning from an excited friend:
"You have a beautiful web site imbued with the Divine Mother's love and wisdom. I am most appreciative of your work to bring this into a form where many people can experience it. Since, I am producing a 3-part series for television on topics which integrate ideas which you are already familiar with, perhaps we will have an opportunity to
communicate further in the process of bringing a greater balance and
understanding to this world."
(the site is not mine, but I have been influenced by it and other sites since I started writing here - the female aspect of god - something I did not think about before at all).
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