Jesus' divinity?

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Good day to all others.

A frequent claim by all christians, to the defense of their raising Jesus to a classification of divinity, is that they claim that Jesus is the son of God. Well, it is something that is frequent throughout the bible, speaking in reference to various peoples throughout the history of the world, as well as in reference even to the people who are reverent and pious in their devotion to God...that they are classified as the 'children of God'. What is so special that sets Jesus apart from the others of the world? Merely because of his courage and ability to speak out the message to those who were unreceptive of it? He was a prophet, a messenger, and that is what the prophets and messengers do...they relay the message that they are given charge to reveal.

His virgin birth, as well, does not in itself create cause to classify him to the level of divinity. For...if it does, then perhaps Adam's birth, or even Eve's, which perhaps were even more miraculous...should classify them in even higher level than Jesus. Adam was created only from a gathering of dust or clay, and Eve was created from Adam's rib...all without biological father or mother. They were created, much as you and I were created, although in totally different manner. It is merely a phenomenon and miracle that God declare something to be, and it becomes!!! Glory be to Him, who has created all that is in the heavens and the earth!!! Such it was with the creation and birth of Jesus...that he was created to become in his mother's womb...without the happening of any man physically touching her...the embryo was created within her womb...and he followed the remaining normal gestation period and natural delivery process. Subhan al-khaliq!!! Glory be to the Creator!!!

Following are some quotes...even from today's bible, of Jesus' reminding his followers of how to think of him, and how to classify him, in accordance with his Creator:

Om Mohammed

************************************************** ****

Jesus Said He Was God?

The following was sent to me by a Muslim Sister who decided to keep her name anonymous; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with her.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21)

“And the Father himself, which hath sent me, bore witness of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape” (John 5:37)

“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18)

“And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.” (John 8:50)

“ Jesus answered them and said, “my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me” (John 7:16)

“he who does not love me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent me” (John 14:24)

“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak” (John 12:49)

“Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work” (John 4:34)

“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 6:38)

“saying, ‘Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done” (Luke 22:42)

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:30)

“I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him” (John 13:16)

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)

“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me” (John 8:42)

“To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23)

“So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me” (John 7:16)

[alhamdliyesu]

************************************************** ****

Jesus Said He Was God?


“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21)
**************
This is explaining that there would be fakes.
***************
“And the Father himself, which hath sent me, bore witness of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape” (John 5:37)
****************
How does that even "take" away from Yeshua's divinity?
***************
“And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Mark 10:18)
***************
Exactly, he was calling Yeshua equal to God. Yeshua was asking if he was stating that Yeshua was God.
***************
“And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.” (John 8:50)
*****************
He glorified the Father, he and the Father are One.
*****************
“ Jesus answered them and said, “my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me” (John 7:16)
****************
Yeah, God sent him, so?
****************
“he who does not love me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent me” (John 14:24)
*****************
Yes, so?
******************
“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak” (John 12:49)
**************
Yeah, so?
**************
“Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work” (John 4:34)
***************
Okay, have you ever heard of the Trinity? God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? It's like a holy, spiritual marriage(but not like humans). They are united but separate.
***************
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me” (John 6:38)

“saying, ‘Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done” (Luke 22:42)

“I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I JUDGE; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:30)
**************
"I judge" isn't there no other judge but God?
*************
“I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him” (John 13:16)
*************
You can't be greater, but Yeshua was equal. God's greatness is the utmost goal that was and only will be achieved by Yeshua.
**************
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28)
***************
Yeshua was humble when he talked of the Father. Have you forgotten that some Jews were trying to make him the ruler by force?
****************
“Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me” (John 8:42)
*****************
Yes, it prooves the divinity of Yeshua.....proceeded and came forth from God.
******************
“To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father” (Matthew 20:23)
******************
Yes, explain why that's against Yeshua being divine.
*****************
“So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent
*****************

So if God sent him, it automatically makes Yeshua not God's son?
Can you send your son somewhere? or maybe you like the argument that says that there are many sons and daughters of God. Yeshua made that possible through his sacrifice. If you say that sacrifice is stupid, let me ask how you feel about martyrdom. Isn't martyrdom sacrifice? Isn't it holy in a sense?


As salaam alekum

Al hamd li yesua!

[jcecil3]

Christians do not claim that Jesus IS the Father. The verses you quote point to a clear distinction between the Father and the Son. As to the divinity of Christ, I have written about that elsewhere in my response to "Who Invented the Trinity" and "101 Bible Contradictions", and "A Concise Reply to Christianity". Jesus says in John's gospel, "Before Abraham was, IAM" (John 8:58), referring to Exodus 3:14 where God's name is "I AM Who AM.". The author of John's gospel makes his intend clear in his prologue: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,...and the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of a Father's only Son" (John 1:1 and 1:14). Many other Scriptures are offered in my other replies.

It is important to remember as well that we Christians do not deny the full humanity of Jesus. We acknowledge that he was born of a woman, was tempted (but never sinned), felt just anger, cried, grew tired, ate and drank, and even died. We believe that if God did not become fully human, then Jesus would have no significance or menaing to humanity. Yet, if he is not fully God, then this man's words and deeds would have no universal significance to everybody. He would just be another theologian or prophet stating his opinions (which is what we think of Mohammed).

[Om_Mohammed]

This is one point where we differ greatly, Muslims and Christians. I mean...you have mentioned that your understanding or prophets as stating their own opinions.

In Islam, we are taught that the prophets (the chosen ones) are not speaking of their own opinions and their own desires, but rather they are relaying a message given to them to deliver to their peoples (or to mankind as a whole, as in the case of Mohammed). All of them were great men, religious and pious, and received divine messages to be relayed to men. It is the finality of the message given to Mohammed that is to last for all of mankind for all ages.

And, a great difference between the Quran (the message that Mohammed was entrusted with to deliver) and todays' existing Bible is that it is a compilation of God's word, relayed by man to mankind, and not simply a collection of historical recollections, verses of prose and poetry, instructions or guidelines, and relations...written and admittedly composed by various individuals throughout the course of history, and having been up for revision after revision, as is the description of the existing Bible.

Read the Quran, compare with the Bible, and perhaps you will understand what I am trying to convey. Again...not intended as an insult upon ANYONE...merely truthful observations.

You will find of the Quran, quite explicit and amazing revelations of nature (on various topics), things which were revealed over 1400 years ago, relayed by an illiterate man, and things of which modern science is only now and very recently discovering (some of those things yet to be discovered)...proofs of the divinity of the revelation itself. Such knowledge, at the time of it's revelation particularly, could not have existed except with the divine source. As well, the mere language of the Quran (this, of course, is for those who have some knowledge of the Arabic language) is merely another proof of it's divine origin, for it is of such a high calibre of language and prose, as well as combining within it a beautiful and amazingly comprehensive cadence to follow. There is as well, within the Quran, challenges for those who wish to face them, to reproduce something of similar calibre, which no man nor combination of men has yet been able to do.

Seems to be getting off topic of the thread...but in all actuality, all points seem to lead one to another.

Om Mohammed

[jcecil3]

LAST EDITED ON 16-10-01 AT 05:13 PM (GMT)[p]Om Mohammed,

Thanks for your very gracious replies today. I just read your reply to my recent post on "Message For People of the Book". I wish to respond to your reply there later because there are 3 or 4 points you make that need comment that will take some time to address -- but I did want to acknowledge immediately the apology you made in there, and state that I completely understand, since I am extremely guilty of argumentiveness at times (just ask my wife). Enough said!

Regarding the above post where you state the difference between Islamic and Christian views of revelation, I agree with your assesment pretty much. I think you fairly accurately described my view of revelation, though I might have chosen slightly different words.

Now, you mention that the Qur'an foretells things to come which are being verified now. People say the same of Nostradamus, and Evengelical Christians say the same of Revelations, and people say the same Jean Dixon and others, etc....The human mind has a way of reinterpreting any texts to make it apply to the day. While this may be spiritually profitable sometimes, I am a believer in trying to read texts in their historical contexts. And there is a theological argument for this that I believe you would accept.

If the proof of the Qur'an lay solely in prophecy coming true, then how did people come to faith before the prophecy was fulfilled?

I ask the same question of the Bible.

Another question I ask when reading the Bible: What exactly did the author experience that caused him to write this?

Another question I ask: Am I interpreting the words written on the page the way the author intended? For example, if I wrote "It is raining cats and dogs outside.", most people in the USA would know that I don't mean there are cats and dogs falling out of the sky. However, if I said to my Latino friends, "Esta juviendo gatos y perros.", very few would know what I'm talking about.

Finally, a question I need to understand Islam's answer to: What is the test of a true prophet?

As an aside, you keep repeating that I should read the Bible and the Qur'an. I read the Bible everyday, and have read it straight through 4 times. I pray the Psalms daily. I have taken classes in Biblical Greek and Latin, and I have studied some Hebrew on my own. It's not that I don't ever see apparent contradictions, but just as you would do with the Qur'an or a confusing Hadith, I research these difficulties and find an answer. I don't claim to have an answer to every Biblical question, but I am satisfied that there are answers -- especially since I personally know many people who know more than I do!

Regarding the Qur'an, I bought a copy of N. J. Dawood's translation about 10 years ago, and read through it once. I was not particularly impressed. I am re-reading it now, and understanding Islam has become more important to me with the tragedy of September 11, 2001. I have to confess though that without the insights I have seen on this very web site, I would have thought that the Qur'an is being read correctly by Osoma Bin Laden! It does seem to me that there are passages that can be taken out of contexts to justify terrorism and killing of unbelievers.

[vancouver]

How would you class Angels? Would you say they were divine? Jesus was the first Angel that God created. Many think that Satan was an early creation(angel) as he was given the role of watching over Adam and Eve in the garden of eden. Satan, who would have had a nicer name before he changed, became jealous of God and wanted the worship for himself. We know that that was wrong and Jesus has never wanted to be worshipped or even bowed to. Because Jesus gave his life for mankind all prayers to God have to be given through him as a mediator. Previously Moses was the mediator through the Mosiac covenant. But Jesus was never to be worshipped or take the place of the Almighty God. But if you think of angels as being divine then Jesus was divine in that way. It depends how you understand the meaning of the word divine.

[JBJ]

Hi Vancouver,

Could you tell me what religion you're part of? Thank you,

JBJ

[vancouver]

Thanks for asking, but when I have mentioned my religion on this site up to now I have been met with slander of my faith and abuse. I believe that Abel was the first witness of God and that God has a name. He said he would take people out of all nations for his name. Some on this site think that just because hebrew was written without vowels we should not use the name of God. All names were written without vowels but we still use them. Many were afraid to take God's name in vain and eventually people became superstitious about using it. So the correct pronounciation was lost. That does not stop God's people from using it today though as for centuries now the name Jehovah has been widely recognised as the english equivelant for the tetogrammaton(YHWH). The name of God was originally in the scriptures about 7,000 times. It must be important. So my religion is a way of life for me. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. That is my honour to be counted as a witness of the greatest one in the universe.

[jcecil3]

Greetings All!

Welcome back JBJ -- long time.

Vancouver: I apologize if I seemed harsh to Jehovah's Witnesses or if I misrepresented your beliefs in any way. I get a little carried away sometimes. We can agree to disagree respectfully and in peace.

In the thread that I asked about scholars claiming the New World Translation is best, my intent is not really to beat up Jehovah's Witnesses, but to clarify whether that particular statement about the scholars is true.

Even if the majority of scholars reject the NWT, you may have your own valid reasons for accepting the NWT. Truth isn't subject to a scholarly vote. If it were, the world was flat at one time, and turned round when scholars became convinced otherwise.

I disagree with the statement that most scholars accept the NWT as best, even though it may be best in God's eyes. Maybe the scholars and I are wrong.

I guess I am saying that if you are correct that most scholars accept the NWT, point me to the article, because I'd really like to read it. This is new information to me, and if it is true that the majority of scholars prefer the NWT to other translations, I'd like to read those scholarly arguments so that I can understand Greek and Hebrew better and see where I am making mistakes in my own reading of the originals.

On the other hand, if you overstated your position, and you really don't care what scholars say, that's fine too -- you still may be right in God's (Jehovah's) eyes. Likewise, I don't really want to argue about the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton, unless you feel it is really a significant issue.

Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3

[vancouver]

Greetings jcecil3

I have some more information regarding the New World Translation. I'm sorry if you find this a little lenghthy.

A Milestone for Lovers of God's Word

In 1998 a significant milestone was reached for all lovers of God's Word. During that year, the 100 millionth copy of the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" came off the press. It has thus become one of the most widely distributed Bibles produced in this century!

THIS feat is particularly remarkable considering that upon its release, this translation was subjected to severe criticism. Yet, it has not only survived but thrived, making its way into millions of homes-and hearts-all over the world! What is the origin of this unique translation? Who is behind it? And how might you benefit from using it?

Why a New Translation?

For over a hundred years, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, the legal agency representing Jehovah's Witnesses, has distributed Bibles. Why, though, did Jehovah's Witnesses see the need to produce another version of God's Word? The book So Many Versions?, by Sakae Kubo and Walter Specht, observes: "No translation of the Bible can ever be considered final. Translations must keep pace with the growth in biblical scholarship and the changes in language."

This century has seen considerable growth in the understanding of Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic-the languages in which the Bible was originally penned. Also, Bible manuscripts have been discovered that are older and more accurate than those used by previous generations of Bible translators. God's Word can thus be rendered more accurately today than ever before! It was for good reason, then, that the New World Bible Translation Committee was formed to undertake the translation of the Bible into modern-day languages.

In 1950 the English-language version of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures was published. The title itself was a bold departure from tradition, rejecting the designation of the Bible as made up of "Old" and "New" testaments. During the next decade, portions of the Hebrew Scriptures were published in installments. In 1961 the complete Bible in English was released in one volume.

Just who translated this remarkable Bible? The Watchtower of September 15, 1950, said: "The men who compose the translation committee have indicated their desire . . . to remain anonymous, and specifically do not want their names to be published while they are in life or after death. The purpose of the translation is to exalt the name of the living, true God." Some critics charged that the work should be summarily dismissed as the product of amateurs, but not all took such an unreasonable stance. Writes Alan S. Duthie: "If we know who the translators or the publishers of a particular Bible translation are, does it help us to decide whether that translation is good or bad? Not directly. There is no substitute for examining the characteristics of each translation itself."

Unique Features

Millions of readers have done just that and have discovered the New World Translation to be not only readable but scrupulously accurate. Its translators worked from the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek languages, using the best texts available. Unusual care was also exercised to render the ancient text as literally as possible but in language that would readily be understood. Accordingly, some scholars praised this translation for its integrity and accuracy. For example, the Andover Newton Quarterly of January 1963 said: "The translation of the New Testament is evidence of the presence in the movement of scholars qualified to deal intelligently with the many problems of Biblical translation."

The translators opened up a new world of Biblical understanding. Bible texts that had previously been only dimly understood became dramatically clear. For example, the perplexing text at Matthew 5:3, "blessed are the poor in spirit" (King James Version), was rendered in a way that made sense: "Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need." The New World Translation is also quite consistent and uniform in its rendering of key terms. The Greek word psy·khe', for example, was translated "soul" in each of its occurrences. As a result, readers can quickly discern that contrary to religious theories, the soul is not immortal!-Matthew 2:20; Mark 3:4; Luke 6:9; 17:33.

Restoring God's Name

An outstanding feature of the New World Translation involved the restoration of God's name, Jehovah. In ancient copies of the Hebrew Bible, the divine name is represented by four consonants that may be transliterated as YHWH or JHVH. This distinctive name appears nearly 7,000 times in the so-called Old Testament alone. (Exodus 3:15; Psalm 83:18) Clearly, our Creator intended his worshipers both to know and to use that name!

However, superstitious fears caused the Jewish people to cease using the divine name. Following the death of Jesus' apostles, copyists of the Greek Scriptures began replacing God's personal name with the Greek words Ky'ri·os (Lord) or The·os' (God). Sad to say, modern translators have perpetuated this God-dishonoring tradition, eliminating God's name from most Bibles and even concealing that God has a name. For example, at John 17:6 are Jesus' words: "I have made your name manifest." Today's English Version, however, renders this: "I have made you known."

Some scholars defend the elimination of the divine name because its exact pronunciation is unknown. However, such familiar Bible names as Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Jesus are routinely rendered in ways that bear little resemblance to their original Hebrew pronunciation. Since the form Jehovah is a legitimate way of rendering the divine name-and one familiar to many people-objections to using it ring hollow.

The New World Bible Translation Committee took the bold step of using the name Jehovah in both the Hebrew and Greek portions of Scripture. They had a precedent for this in early missionary translations for people in Central America, the South Pacific, and the Orient. Such use of God's name is not merely of academic interest, however. Knowing God's name is critical to coming to know him as a person. (Exodus 34:6, 7) The New World Translation has encouraged millions of readers to use his name!

Reaching Non-English Readers

Between 1963 and 1989, the New World Translation became available, in whole or in part, in ten additional languages. However, the work of translation was laborious, with some projects lasting 20 years or more. Then, in 1989 the Translation Services Department was established at the world headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses. Under the direction of the Writing Committee of the Governing Body, this department set out to speed up Bible translation. A method of translation was developed that combined Biblical word study with computer technology. How does this system work?

Once the Writing Committee has approved the translation of the Bible into a new language, it appoints a group of dedicated Christians to serve as a translating team. Teams can produce more balanced translations than can an individual working alone. (Compare Proverbs 11:14.) Generally, each team member has had experience in translating the Society's publications. The team then receives thorough training in the principles of Bible translation and in the use of specially developed computer programs. A computer does not do actual translation work, but it can give a team access to important information and help them to keep track of their decisions.

A Bible translation project has two stages. During the first stage, the translators are given a list of words and expressions used in the English New World Translation. Related English terms, such as "atone," "atonement," and "propitiation," are grouped together, alerting the translators to subtle shades of meaning. They compile a list of vernacular equivalents. At times, though, a translator may have difficulty rendering a verse. The computer research system provides the translator with information on Greek and Hebrew terms and gives access to Watch Tower publications.

When the project moves into its second stage, the selected vernacular terms are automatically inserted into the Bible text. This builds considerable accuracy and consistency into the translation. However, the text resulting from this "search and replace" operation is hardly readable. Considerable work must be done to edit and rephrase Bible verses so that they read smoothly.

This translation system has proved to be remarkably effective. One group was able to translate the entire Hebrew Scriptures in just two years. Compare this to a group that worked on a related language without computer support. It took them 16 years. To date, the Christian Greek Scriptures have been printed in 18 additional languages since 1989. The New World Translation is now available, in whole or in part, in 34 languages. Thus over 80 percent of Jehovah's Witnesses have at least the Christian Greek Scriptures available in their mother tongue.

The United Bible Societies reports that of the world's 6,500 languages, portions of the Bible are available in only 2,212. Hence, some 100 translators are working to produce the New World Translation of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures in 11 and 8 languages respectively. God's will is "that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth." (1 Timothy 2:4) The New World Translation will no doubt continue to play a major role in this regard.

We therefore rejoice that this translation has passed the milestone of 100 million copies, and we pray that many more millions will be produced in the future. We encourage you to examine it for yourself. You will enjoy numerous special features: clear type, page headings, an index that can help you to locate familiar verses, detailed maps, and fascinating appendix material. More important, you can read this Bible with confidence that it accurately transmits the very sayings of God in your language.

[Footnotes]

Interestingly, the jacket of the 1971 Reference Edition of the New American Standard Bible similarly stated: "We have not used any scholar's name for reference or recommendations because it is our belief God's Word should stand on its merits."

The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Westcott and Hort, served as the basic Greek text. R. Kittel's Biblia Hebraica was the basic text for the Hebrew Scriptures.

Since many people are bilingual, it is believed that the Bible, in whole or in part, is translated in enough languages to be read by over 90 percent of the earth's population.

"The translation of the New Testament is evidence of the presence in the movement of scholars qualified to deal intelligently with the many problems of Biblical translation."-ANDOVER NEWTON QUARTERLY, JANUARY 1963

"Translations must keep pace with the growth in biblical scholarship and the changes in language"

SCHOLARS PRAISE THE NEW WORLD TRANSLATION

REGARDING the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Edgar J. Goodspeed, translator of the Greek "New Testament" in An American Translation, wrote in a letter dated December 8, 1950: "I am interested in the mission work of your people, and its world wide scope, and much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I can testify."

Hebrew and Greek scholar Alexander Thomson wrote: "The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars, who have sought to bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek text as the English language is capable of expressing."-The Differentiator, April 1952, pages 52-7.

Professor Benjamin Kedar, a Hebrew scholar in Israel, said in 1989: "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible."

I have noted that those with a full understanding of the original languages and who have also took time out to carefully consider the New World Translation have praised the translators of it.

Talking aside. I watched a TV programme over the easter week-end that cast doubt over Jesus' being born in Bethlehem.

The programmer was not aware that there were two census's around the time of Jesus'birth. One was 2 B.C when Jesus was born and the other one which caused the revolt was in 6 C.E. We now understand that Herod died at about the same time as he ordered the killing of the male babies under two years of age in 1 B.C. when Jesus was one year old plus or minus a month or two.

All the best

vancouver