View Full Version : WHO GOD or ALLAH (SWT) REALLY IS
hassanalmuslim
07-12-2001, 12:42
WHO ALLAH (SWT) REALLY IS
One of the reasons – maybe the main reason – why the Holy Qur’an was sent down to mankind is to correct the Belief in ALLAH (SWT) and to destroy all false beliefs which people invented. The Christians came to a false belief by developing the trinity. I don´t know why they developed this trinity, maybe contiously, maybe they misunderstood the bible, however the trinity can´t be accepted by God or ALLAH (SWT), so He Has explained Himself in great detail in the Holy Qur’an.
In five locations ALLAH (SWT) Describes Himself. These are the following verses:
Cited Verse 1
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
ALLAH, there is no ALLAH but He, The Living, The Self-subsisting Eternal, no slumber
can seize Him nor sleep, His are all things in the heavens and in the earth, who is there
14 EXPLORING THE SCIENTIFIC MIRACLE OF THE HOLY QUR’AN M. WAGDI
can intercede in His presence except as He Permits, He Knows what before them and
what after them, they do not compass anything of His knowledge except what He Wills,
His Throne extends over the heavens and the earth, He Feels no fatigue in preserving
them, and He is The Most High, The Supreme.
(part 3, Surat Al Baqarah “The Heifer”)
Cited Verse 2
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
ALLAH is the light of the heavens and the earth, the parable of His light as if it is a lamp
within a chandelier, the lamp is inside a glass, the glass as if it is a brilliant planet lit from
a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, its oil is almost luminous
without being touched by fire, light upon light, ALLAH Guides to His Light whom He
Wills, and ALLAH Does set forth parables for the people and ALLAH Does Know
everything.
(part 18, Surat Al Noor “The Light”)
Cited Verses 3
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, He is ALLAH, the One and Only, ALLAH The Eternal, The Absolute, He begot not,
nor He is begotten, and none is equivalent to Him.
(part 30, Surat Al Ekhlaas “The Purity of Faith”)
Cited Verses 4
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Who Created me and it is He Who Guides me. And it is He Who Provides me with food
and drink. And if I get ill, it is He Who Cures me. And it is He Who Takes my life and
then Gives it back. And it is He Who I hope Forgives my sins on judgment day.
(part 19, Surat Al Shu’araa “The Poets”)
Cited Verse 5
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
The Originator of the heavens and the earth with tremendous power, He Has made for
you, from you pairs and from the domestic animals pairs to multiply, Nothing is similar
to Him, and He is the One Who Hears everything most and Sees everything most.
(part 25, Surat Al Shura “The Consultation”)
In five locations in the
Holy Qur’an, ALLAH (SWT) Describes Himself (Who is He). Those locations are, cited
verse 1, cited verse 2, cited verses 3, cited verses 4 and cited Verse 5. Several verses in the Holy Qur’an describe the characteristics of ALLAH (SWT), which are His Holy 99 Names.
Cited verse 1 gives a partial description of ALLAH (SWT) and some of His characteristics. The partial description of ALLAH (SWT) given in this verse is:-
. THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH (SWT).
. NO SLUMBER CAN SEIZE HIM NOR SLEEP.
. HE KNOWS WHAT WE DECLARE AND WHAT WE CONCEAL (that goes also
for all His creatures).
. HIS THRONE ENCOMPASSES THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.
. HE FEELS NO FATIGUE IN PRESERVING THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH..
Cited verse 2 gives the most comprehensive description of ALLAH (SWT) (Who
is He). It is the ONLY verse in the Holy Qur’an that gives such description of ALLAH
(SWT). In order to understand the correct meaning of this verse we have to pay great
attention to its wording. In this verse ALLAH (SWT) Describes His light as if it is a
chandelier, which represents BEAUTY. The lamp in the chandelier is put into a glass, as
if it is a brilliant PLANET. Notice here the word “PLANET”, NOT “star”. The light
emitted from a star (our sun is a star) is due to heat production by means of continuous
fusion reactions in its core. That is, the light emitted from a star is due to heat (fire). On
the other hand, the light emitted from a planet, is by reflection from other source of light.
In the verse, the assumed brilliant planet is lit by oil, which is almost luminous without
being touched by fire. This indicates that ALLAH’s light is not produced from heat
source and it is self-generating, that is, it does not come from other source. The
description of ALLAH (SWT) given in cited verse 2 is :-
. ALLAH (SWT) IS THE LIGHT OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH.
. ALLAH’s LIGHT IS EXTREMELY INTENSE (light upon light).
. ALLAH’s LIGHT IS EXTREMELY BEAUTIFUL (as if it is a chandelier).
The description of ALLAH (SWT) given in cited verses 3 and cited verse 5
is:-
. ALLAH IS ONE.
. ALLAH IS ETERNAL (nothing before Him and nothing after Him).
. ALLAH NEVER BEGOT NOR BEGOTTEN.
. THERE IS NO EQUIVALENT TO ALLAH (SWT).
. NOTHING IS SIMILAR TO ALLAH (SWT).
The above description of ALLAH (SWT) leads to one conclusion. ALLAH IS THE
ABSOLUTE ENERGY SOURCE THAT POWERS AND CONTROLS THE HEAVENS
AND THE EARTH AND EVERYTHING IN THEM.
One of the principle laws of physics [which is created by ALLAH (SWT)] is the law of
conservation of energy. It states that energy is neither created nor destroyed, it just
transforms from one form to another. Since ALLAH (SWT) is The Absolute energy
source, therefore He was never created and He is Eternal. As mentioned in the Holy
Qur’an, HE IS THE FIRST AND HE IS THE LAST. NOTHING BEFORE HIM AND
NOTHING AFTER HIM.
In cited verse 1, ALLAH (SWT) Says that everything in the heavens and the earth
belong to Him, and He Knows what any creature reveals or conceals. Now we understand
why. The basic element of anything in the heavens and the earth (whether it is solid,
liquid or gas) is the atom. Inside the atom there is a nucleus and electrons around it. The
electrons as well as the particles inside the nucleus are in continuous motion. Their
motions are powered by the energy contained within. Similarly, the cells of a living tissue
contain energy within. Therefore, the mere existence of anything requires the presence of
energy, which comes ONLY from ALLAH (SWT).
The compelling evidence that led to the above conclusion came from cited verse 2. ALLAH (SWT) Says that He is the light of the heavens and the earth. Light is energy.
Since ALLAH (SWT) is The Ultimate Energy Source, therefore, nothing is similar or equivalent to Him. He is The One in control of everything. He is The Creator, because without His energy nothing exists. His Throne encompasses the heavens and the earth, because the heavens and the earth can not exist and function without the constant supply of energy from ALLAH (SWT).
In our Muslim prayers to ALLAH (SWT), we repeatedly mention three expressions, ALLAH IS THE BIGGEST (Akbar), PRAISE AND GLORY TO MY LORD WHO IS THE HIGHEST (Al A’alaa), PRAISE AND GLORY TO MY LORD WHO IS THE GREATEST (Azeem). In fact, these expressions assert and complement the description of ALLAH
(SWT) given by the above cited verses. ALLAH’s Throne encompasses the heavens and
the earth, therefore, He is Bigger than the heavens and the earth, that is He is The
Biggest. ALLAH’s Throne is above the heavens,
therefore there is nothing above Him, that is, He is The Highest. None is equivalent or
similar to ALLAH (SWT), that is, He is The Greatest.
The life of all living creatures is sustained by the energy within their bodies. This
energy comes from the Ultimate Energy Source, ALLAH (SWT). That is, all the
activities of the living organs are controlled by ALLAH (SWT). Since ALLAH (SWT)
Controls everything in the heavens and the earth, therefore He Controls our sustenance as
well as our physical conditions. He Controls our existence in this world and He is The
One Who Has Pre-assigned the life time of each creature. He is The One Who Brings us
back from the dead and He is The one Who Rewards or Punishes on judgment day. In
that respect Prophet Ibraheem (Abraham) described ALLAH (SWT) with the most
elegant words and concise phrases in cited verses 4. ALLAH is the Creator, The One
Who Guides to the right path, The Provider, The Healer, Who Takes the life and then
Gives it back (on judgment day), and He is the One Who hopefully Forgives our sins on
judgment day. From these Holy verses, we learn the following :-
. ALLAH (SWT) Guides whomever He wills to the right path.
. ALLAH (SWT) is The Only Provider. He Causes things to happen to some people to
get rich and to others to become poor.
. ALLAH (SWT) is The Only One Who Cures the illness. Medicine is just an agent for
relieving pains.
. ALLAH (SWT) is The Only One Who Forgives our sins, if He Wants to, on
judgment day. It is foolish to ask humans for forgiveness.
Now, what is maybe the main principle of ALLAH’s Nature, is that He is ONE, He begot not, he was not begotten, NOTHING is in any aspect similar to Him. The words in the bible “begotten son” are obviously contrary to this. I know, Christians don´t believe that God has physically begotten a son, but that he is a kind of ever existing community of three natures, since eternity. That is, God comes in three different images, and these images together form ONE. The Qur’an makes clear that this is a False belief, by stating “Do not say “three””.
God has created everything, therefore He can´t be like His creation and His creation can´t be like Him. It is not correct, that God came in the form of a man to the earth (Jesus). God Has always known what comes in the future. ALLAH (SWT) isn´t subjected to time, but time was created by Him. In the Holy Quran ALLAH (SWT) Has told that He initiated the creation of the heavens and the earth by forcibly disintegrating an entity which joined the heavens and the earth. He then made and designed the earth and the heavens out of the instantly produced matter. ALLAH (SWT) Has told both in Quran and Bible, that these creation processes lasted six days (in His Holy sight). This clearly shows that –besides matter- also the dimension time was created by ALLAH (SWT) when disintegrating the entity which joined the heavens and the earth. Therefore, ALLAH(SWT) Knows everything what will ever happen inside His creation. As a guiding to the humans, He sent revelations.
He did NOT come Himself Into His creation in the form of a man!
He did not let people crucify Him, or the body he was Within!
There is no original sin, because this belief implies that ALLAH (SWT) Has created humans for nothing and no cause and that they have no duties in this life towards God, simply to believe that God was crucified!
Ruqayyah
08-12-2001, 14:18
Assalamualaikum my brother:
That is a very good post,a very good post indeed.It explains it all very clearly.I tried to explain about all these-but I realize my explanation is a little bit hard to be understood.So I hope from your post,it will help the non-believers to see how exactly true Islam is and how Allah is the God and the One and Only God.
No,Allah can't 'enter a woman's womb' and then come out in the form of a baby and all that.Of course that's impossible.That is so human and so dirty.Allah is free from all that.He is not similar to humans.
92. But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allâh) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children).
93. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) as a slave.
-Maryam
Wassalam
Ruqayyah Binti Ramli
Hi Ruqayyah
You said:
>No,Allah can't 'enter a woman's womb'
>and then come out in
>the form of a baby
>and all that.Of course that's
>impossible.That is so human and
>so dirty.Allah is free from
>all that.
I'm a little confused. First, how can something be impossible for Allah? Second, why is giving birth "dirty"? Why would Allah create something impure? And also, why is having a son derogatory? Just wondering.
JBJ
Greetings Hassanalmuslim,
You said that there is no original sin, and I know that's the common consensus among Muslims. I was wondering how you interpret this hadith in light of that idea:
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 430:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mus'ud:
Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do (good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man amongst you may do (evil) deeds till there is only a cubit between him and the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his behavior, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise."
You also said that Allah did not come in the form of a man. However, the Torah says:
So Jacob (Yaqub) was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. . . So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face."
Wasn't God in the form of a man here?
JBJ
Dr Qaisar
09-12-2001, 08:07
Greetings JBJ,
>
>You said that there is no
>original sin, and I know
>that's the common consensus among
>Muslims. I was wondering
>how you interpret this hadith
>in light of that idea:
>
>
>Volume 4, Book 54, Number 430:
>
> Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mus'ud:
>
> Allah's Apostle, the true
>and truly inspired said, "(The
>matter of the Creation of)
>a human being is put
>together in the womb of
>the mother in forty days,
>and then he becomes a
>clot of thick blood for
>a similar period, and then
>a piece of flesh for
>a similar period. Then Allah
>sends an angel who is
>ordered to write four things.
>He is ordered to write
>down his (i.e. the new
>creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his
>(date of) death, and whether
>he will be blessed or
>wretched (in religion). Then the
>soul is breathed into him.
>So, a man amongst you
>may do (good deeds till
>there is only a cubit
>between him and Paradise and
>then what has been written
>for him decides his behavior
>and he starts doing (evil)
>deeds characteristic of the people
>of the (Hell) Fire. And
>similarly a man amongst you
>may do (evil) deeds till
>there is only a cubit
>between him and the (Hell)
>Fire, and then what has
>been written for him
>decides his behavior, and he
>starts doing deeds characteristic of
>the people of Paradise."
>
>You also said that Allah did
>not come in the form
>of a man. However,
>the Torah says:
>
>So Jacob (Yaqub) was left alone,
>and a man wrestled with
>him till daybreak. . .
>So Jacob called the place
>Peniel, saying, "It is because
>I saw God face to
>face."
>
>Wasn't God in the form of
>a man here?
>
>JBJ
First of all I will take on your question above. I myself and others here have made it amply and very clearl in no uncertain terms that we Muslims are ONLY required to just believe in the original Revelations given to all the previous prophets by God (Allah) in times gone by; in this case it has been made evident to you that while the Qur'an "confirms" the previous Scriptures, it does so ONLY in the manner of affirming the basic message of Monotheism contained in the previous Scriptures and partly as relating to the similar stories of some of the commmon Prophets mentioned in the OT/NT and the Qur'an, say for example, the similar stories of Prophets Noah & the Flood, Moses & Pharoah, Lot (Lut), David, Solomon etc. (Peace be upon all of them). But each of the Books have significant differences in their respective accounts of these past stories eg. Prophet Noah (PBUH) & the Flood, but the basic message is similar and the moral lessons & warnings for mankind are the same. But having said that, it has also been made crystal clear repeatedly, by myself in my posts & by others here, that the Qur'an DOES NOT confirm word for word each & every passage contained in the Torah, OT or NT since their composition or compilation at any given point of time in history, specially those passages inthe OT/NT which shamelessly violate the Unity of God (Allah), and/or the Indivisibility of God's (Allah's) Names and Attributes. The reasons are specifically mentioned in the Qur'an that the previous Scriptures were NOT spared of alterations, whether they may be either physical, verbal, metaphorical changes etc. to the previous Revelations at the hands of their custodians (priests, rabbis, Church authorities etc.). The alterations could have assumed the shape of either additions, deletions, misinterpretation of passages, wilful misguidance or simply lax implementations of God's (Allah's) Law or disobedience.
Therefore, in the light of the above, it is completely futile bordering on abject stupidity in trying to elicit comments from us Muslims regarding Heretical passages taken from the Torah as you have done in your reply. Why do you want to waste our time? Such passages are from your Books, so you deal with them. It is, indeed, heretical, blasphemous and a pagan tradition to say that God came as a human being on earth or assumed a human shape for whatever reasons. SUBHAAN-ALLAH, (GLORY BE TO ALLAH), God (Allah) IS FAR ABOVE TO WHAT THEY (humans) ASCRIBE TO HIM, OR WRITE ABOUT HIM WHICH DOES NOT BEFIT HIS MAJESTY!!! It is derogatory to the Dignity & Majesty of the Most High that He came to the earth or anywhere as a human being or anything resembling His Creation!! This is the express reason why Muslims reject passages of the Bible that violate the Indivisibility & Unity of Allah Most High. So please stop quoting irrelevant passages from the Torah or anywhere else and asking for our comments. These are nothing but CRAP, plain and simple!!
It has been mentioned that the Angels of God (Allah), by the Will of Allah, have taken human forms to convey or carry out certain Commands or Decrees of Allah, like the guests of Prophets Abraham (PBUH) & to Prophet LOT (Lut,PBUH) or to Mary etc. They are servants of GOD carrying out specific Commands of God (Allah); there is no need for God to come to earth in any shape to carry out His Own Commands!
Now, to your quotation of the hadith above. It simply defies all logic and reasoning and baffles the mind that how could you have ever thought or imagined that there was ANY CONNECTION between the meaning of that hadith and the Christian concept of ‘Original Sin‘??? I feel like bashing my head against a wall when I hear or read such moronic allusions. But no, Alhamdulillah, I have been guided to the Straight Path (Islam) by Allah Most High!! Was it in Chinese that you could not understand the meaning of that Hadith?? In simple terms & briefly, that hadith deals with the fact that the account or record of a person's good or bad deeds, Faith or disbelief etc. are written beforehand because God (Allah) knows everything in the Universe, past, present, or future! Thus, the instruction by God to the angels to record the deeds of every human being. What remains to be carried out is only the occurance of an event which has been previously decreed or recorded by Allah. This is the concept of PRE-ORDAINMENT, one of the 6 cardinal articles of Islamic Faith. Haven't you heard of the Biblical expression: "So it was written, so shall it be done"? But this must NOT be confused in any way with the self-illusion that it is God (Allah) Himself who has Pre-ordained in a person's fate that he/she should commit evil deeds or sins in life!! Because God (Allah) does NOT Command anyone to commit sins or evil but ONLY to do good deeds for his/her spiritual benefit and to worship Him alone!! Human beings have been given the freedom to choose the right or wrong Path after Guidance from Allah has come to them making things clear to them!
If you want to read some of my addtional comments regarding the above hadith, you might find it a little interesting to read an article posted by Sis. Nzingha titled "questions about hadith reliability" in the "Holy Qur'an & Hadith" Forum and my replies to it way back in February this year (20-2-01). Anyway, once again briefly, the 3 periods consisting of 40 days each mentioned in the hadith, add upto 120 days or 4 months of intra-uterine life. After 3 months of embryonic life, the embryo becomes a true fetus wherein the fetus now has a definite human shape (morphogenesis) and has been clothed in skin & covered with muscles (flesh). Before this time of 1st 3 months the human embryo is rather unreognisable, especially in the 1st 40 days, where it exists no more than in the form of a mere "clot of blood" and later, as a "lump of flesh", though, the process of development is an ongoing & continous process!! Remarkable isn't it, that such fairly accurate descriptions of human embryogenesis are contained in not only the above Hadith but also in the Qur'an itself!!! 1400 years ago, no modern Biology, no microsopes tp peep thru!! Thus, I ask you & others humbly, from where could this information have come from??? Not from a human being certainly! Surely, it could not have come from other than the One who Knows All things, One who Sees All things, One who Creates All Creations, the Creator Supreme, Allah Most High. The God of Moses, the God of Jesus and the God of Mohammad. Peace be upom all of them. SUBHAAN-ALLAH!!
Dr.Qaisar
hassanalmuslim
10-12-2001, 00:06
HUMAN EMBRYONAL DEVELOPMENT
Salaam to all readers. Of course it is totally irrelevant to present verses from Torah to a Muslim, just as if the Muslim had to believe in every verse of the Torah, while the truth has been explained in the Holy Qur’an by ALLAH (SWT) Himself. Dr.Qaisar has explained the message of the hadith. So I think, no further discussion about the hadith is needed.
The Pre-Assignment of everything is a fundamental law. If it wouldn´t exist, this would mean that ALLAH (SWT) would not be perfect, that is, the ALL-KNOWING. Moreover this would mean that ALLAH (SWT) is subjected to time, which actually was created by Himself!
Dr.Qaisar has mentioned the miraculous scientific nature of the hadith. He also said that the Qur’an contains scientific knowledge concerning this topic (embryonal development), which could only be known to the Creator at the Revelation time of Al-Qur’an.
Let me just summarise this aspect of the scientific miracle of the Qur’an in the following .
There are three main verses which together give the complete image of the human formation:
Cited Verses 1
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
O human!, what has seduced you from thy LORD Most Generous. Who Created you then
fashioned you in due proportions, then Gave you the upright form. In whatever shape and
looks He Wills, Assembles you.
(part 30, Surat Al Enfitaar “The Cleaving Asunder”)
Cited Verses 2
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
For ALLAH, verily nothing in the earth or in the heaven is hidden from Him. It is He
Who Shapes you in the wombs as He Pleases, there is no GOD but He, The Exalted in
might, The Wise.
(part 3, Surat Aale Imraan “The Family of Imraan”)
Cited Verses 3
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And We Have Created the human from a quintessence of clay. Then We Made him a
drop of sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed. Then We Created the drop of sperm into a
clot of congealed blood, and Created that clot into a lump, and Created out of that lump,
bones, and clothed the bones with flesh, then We Developed out of it another creation, so
blessed be ALLAH, the Best of creators. After that you will indeed die. Then on the day
of judgment you will be resurrected.
(part 18, Surat Al Mo’menoon “The Believers”)
In second verse of cited verses 1 ALLAH (SWT) Says “It is He Who
Created you, then fashioned you in due proportions, then Gave you an upright form”.
These are the three major steps of human formation. The creation begins with the
fertilization process and the development of the fertilized egg to become an embryo. The
embryo then develops to become a fetus, where the organs with the right proportions are
formed. After birth and after the crawling period of the infant, the human starts to stand
up and to walk in the upright form. In the last of these verses, ALLAH (SWT) Says “In
whatever shape and looks He Wills, He Assembles you”. The word “assemble” indicates
that there are basic elements to be assembled in order to form the shape and the looks of
the human. That is, different combinations of these basic elements result in different
physical characteristics of the human. The so-called “blue print of life” was discovered
recently. It is a molecule that contains the combination of these basic elements which
characterizes the human. This molecule was given the scientific name “DeoxyriboNucleic
Acid” or for short “DNA”.
In the last verse of cited verses 2, ALLAH (SWT) Says “It is He Who Shapes
you in the wombs as He Pleases, there is no GOD but He, The Exalted in Might, The
Wise”. This verse together with cited verses 1 give the complete picture of the
shaping of the human. The general features and the characteristics of the human are
assembled by means of “genes”, which are the biological units of heredity. These genes
are contained in the DNA molecule. The general features and characteristics transfer
from the parents to the child. However, the specific shape, looks and physical
characteristics of the human is formed while the human is still an embryo then a fetus in
the womb of the mother. This indicates that the children do not necessarily have the exact
features of their parents. They might differ in shapes and in looks, and also in some
specific physical characteristics and fine details, such as the facial features and the finger
prints.
The creation verses in the holy Qur’an, where ALLAH (SWT) Describes His creation
are intended to demonstrate His absolute knowledge, power and authority. The creation
verses also are intended to give us some basic information about His creation. In cited
verses 2, ALLAH (SWT) Describes in great detail the creation and the formation of
the human, from conception to birth. At the beginning of these verses, ALLAH (SWT) Is
Emphasizing the fact that the human essence is clay, which is a mixture of a kind of dust
and water. In the next verse, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Made the human from a drop
of sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed. This describes the fertilization process where
only one sperm cell “spermatozoon” fertilizes an ovum “the female reproductive cell, an
egg cell”. Once such union is achieved, some changes in the surface of the ovum occur to
block the entry of other sperm cells. In the next verse, ALLAH (SWT) Says “Then We
Created the drop of sperm into a clot of congealed blood”. This describes the formation
of the “morula” (a solid mass of cells), which happens a few days after fertilization. Then
ALLAH (SWT) Says “and Created that clot into a lump”. This describes the development
of the “blastocyst” (a hollow ball of cells consists of internal cavity, outer cells and inner
cell mass), which occurs 7 to 8 days after fertilization. Then ALLAH (SWT) Says “and
Created out of that lump, bones”. This describes the development of the “embryo”, which
takes place during the first two months after fertilization. Then ALLAH (SWT) Says
“And Clothed the bones with flesh”. This describes the formation of the “fetus”. Which
occurs after the second month from fertilization. At that time, all the principle adult
organs have been developed. Then ALLAH (SWT) Says “then We Developed out of it
another creation, …”. This describes the completion and functioning of all the organs in
their final forms.
I ask you to use your human sense of logic. Could this be known to other than the Creator at a time when there didn´t even exist microscopes?
Dr. Quaisar
First, there's no need to get upset. I'm sorry that we don't see eye to eye on everything, but take it calmly. Now, step by step. You said:
I myself and others here have made it amply and very clearl in no uncertain terms that we Muslims are ONLY required to just believe in the original Revelations
I understand and completely agree. The Qur'an only mentions belief in the original Books.
The Qur'an "confirms" the previous Scriptures, it does so ONLY in the manner of affirming the basic message of Monotheism contained in the previous Scriptures and partly as relating to the similar stories of some of the commmon Prophets mentioned in the OT/NT and the Qur'an say for example, the similar stories of Prophets Noah & the Flood, Moses & Pharoah, Lot (Lut), David, Solomon etc. (Peace be upon all of them). But each of the Books have significant differences in their respective accounts of these past stories eg. Prophet Noah (PBUH) & the Flood, but the basic message is similar and the moral lessons & warnings for mankind are the same. But having said that, it has also been made crystal clear repeatedly, by myself in my posts & by others here, that the Qur'an DOES NOT confirm word for word each & every passage contained in the Torah, OT or NT since their composition or compilation at any given point of time in history, specially those passages inthe OT/NT which shamelessly violate the Unity of God (Allah), and/or the Indivisibility of God's (Allah's) Names and Attributes.
Again, I agree. I agree that ayat mentioning "confirming" are refering to monotheism, morality, etc. However, I think it a little offensive that you describe my belief as a shameless violation. If you want to disagree, then please do, but let's not get into bickering; that's what I've liked about this forum compared to others. The trinity agrees with God's unity. In fact, trinity is short for tri-unity. There is one God, we agree, and no separation of him or his names and attributes.
Now, why don't we let the Qur'an speak for itself? This ayah has become my favorite.
3:93 All food was lawful to the children of Israel except what Israel made unlawful for itself before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it if ye be men of truth"
Here we see that the Jews are told to read the Torah, something that could only happen if it was not changed. Please don't be mad with me. I only bring it up because I haven't had a good answer yet.
The reasons are specifically mentioned in the Qur'an that the previous Scriptures were NOT spared of alterations, whether they may be either physical, verbal, metaphorical changes etc. to the previous Revelations at the hands of their custodians (priests, rabbis, Church authorities etc.). The alterations could have assumed the shape of either additions, deletions, misinterpretation of passages, wilful misguidance or simply lax implementations of God's (Allah's) Law or disobedience.
Where does it say this? I'm very curious because I've seen a lot of ayat that Muslims say mean this, but really don't. (Such as Asif's quotations under "Forum Confusion.")
It is derogatory to the Dignity & Majesty of the Most High that He came to the earth or anywhere as a human being or anything resembling His Creation!!
Now we come to a simple difference of opinion. You feel that way, and I feel that in taking human form, the honor of God was shown like never before. By taking human form, God is willing to be one of us. Just think, one of us! King of the Universe, the Lord of Holiness wanted to mingle among men! It makes me happy just thinking about it. The love of God is so great, so awesome, so infinite, that he would come eat, sleep, talk, and live side by side with us. What greater love could there be?! This incredible show of love is also a great show of honor! But that's just my opinion.
It has been mentioned that the Angels of God (Allah), by the Will of Allah, have taken human forms to convey or carry out certain Commands or Decrees of Allah, like the guests of Prophets Abraham (PBUH) & to Prophet LOT (Lut,PBUH) or to Mary etc. They are servants of GOD carrying out specific Commands of God (Allah); there is no need for God to come to earth in any shape to carry out His Own Commands!
This is another silly difference. You believe that, and I believe that only God was worthy enough in his sinlessness to bear our sins.
It simply defies all logic and reasoning and baffles the mind that how could you have ever thought or imagined that there was ANY CONNECTION between the meaning of that hadith and the Christian concept of ‘Original Sin‘??? I feel like bashing my head against a wall when I hear or read such moronic allusions. But no, Alhamdulillah, I have been guided to the Straight Path (Islam) by Allah Most High!! Was it in Chinese that you could not understand the meaning of that Hadith??
I really have to admit you can be quite humorous at times. I wasn't refering to the Christian idea of original sin at all, I think you'll find no mention of it on this thread before your post. I was refering to the misconception about original sin that some Muslims think Christians believe. This hadith and Christian original sin are quite different, I agree.
In simple terms & briefly, that hadith deals with the fact that the account or record of a person's good or bad deeds, Faith or disbelief etc. are written beforehand because God (Allah) knows everything in the Universe, past, present, or future! Thus, the instruction by God to the angels to record the deeds of every human being. What remains to be carried out is only the occurance of an event which has been previously decreed or recorded by Allah. This is the concept of PRE-ORDAINMENT, one of the 6 cardinal articles of Islamic Faith. Haven't you heard of the Biblical expression: "So it was written, so shall it be done"? But this must NOT be confused in any way with the self-illusion that it is God (Allah) Himself who has Pre-ordained in a person's fate that he/she should commit evil deeds or sins in life!! Because God (Allah) does NOT Command anyone to commit sins or evil but ONLY to do good deeds for his/her spiritual benefit and to worship Him alone!! Human beings have been given the freedom to choose the right or wrong Path after Guidance from Allah has come to them making things clear to them!
First, I have heard of "So it is written..." but don't know the reference and can't find it. Could you give it to me so I could see the context. Thanks.
I understand your position, I really do. The problem is the wording of the hadith is "what has been written for him decides his behavior." If it were as you said, his behavior should decide what was written, not the other way around. I think the word is kasb. I'm really not sure how you can interpret it that God doesn't dictate our actions. Comment on this too please.
Bukhari, 9.641
Narrated 'Imran:
I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why should a doer (people) try to do good deeds?' The Prophet said, "Everybody will find easy to do such deeds as will lead him to his destined place for which he has been created.'
Don't be mad, just take it easy. :-) If you're right, then you'll be able to explain it, I'm sure. Peace!
JBJ
JBJ:
Nobody is being mad! You've been going on and on, on what you believe, and have implied that the Holy Qur'an may agrees with you, arguments which have been amply proved to be fallacious. In fact, the theme has exhausted itself, and perhaps the Moderator may have to intervene to put a stop to it.
About the word 'trinity' after reading in your message that it short for 'tri-unity' I went to check the Concise Oxford Dictionary (my copy is quite old 6th Edition edited by J. B. Sikes in 1976!) and it says "being three; group of three..." and goes on of course to justify Christian belief. Now, looking into original latin it's originated from word "trinitias" which means triad. Looking again in the dictionary "triad" means "the number of three; group of three;" from Greek "trias -ados" (treis three and suffix -ad). Now on suffix -ad the dictionary says "in collective numerals (myriad, triad)"
I live in a Catholic country, and my family's roots being in India where paganism still prevails, I find lots of similarities between Hinduism and actual Catholic Christianity. Knowing that the Christians took into their religion, many of former pagan celebrations and myths, why wouldn't the concept of "trinity" be an importation of pagan beliefs? In Hinduism there's also a "trinity" and if you like I can delve into.
Can we agree to disagree?
Tayeb
LAST EDITED ON 11-12-01 AT 02:28 AM (GMT)[p]Hello Tayeb,
If Dr. Quaisar wasn't mad, then I apologize for my mistake. I was under the impression that banging one's head against a wall is a sign of anger.
On the word "trinity," I agree with everything you found in the dictionary. I don't remember where I heard that trinity is short for tri-unity, maybe it was wrong, or maybe I'm remembering something wrongly. In any case, the point is that the trinity does hold to God's unity. It means tere is one eternal essence, with one power, one will, one holiness, one wisdome, and one love.
I know very little about Hinduism, I'd be glad to learn what you've learned about it. Please, delve! You said, "Can we agree to disagree?" and I'm not sure what you're refering to.
You also said that my conclusion has been proved wrong, I'm not sure where this is or who gave the explanation. Dr. Quaisar hasn't finished responding, Asif said, "i am not sure about this matter at all," Mardhiah said, "I do not know." and no one else has tried an explanation. If you're confused and don't see the problem, maybe this will help:
The original Torah was sent to Moses as Allah's message, agreed?
3:93 All food was lawful to the children of Israel except what Israel made unlawful for itself before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it if ye be men of truth
This aya says to bring the original Torah to read, agreed? If you agreed, then the original Torah was present at Muhammad's time. Therefore, the Torah was not changed before Muhammad. There are plenty of manuscripts of the Torah which date far far before Muhammad, and that means the Torah was not changed after Muhammad. Therefore, the Torah that Jews and Christians have today is wholly confirmed by God.
At which part is there disagreement? Kindly let me know. I think the subject is far from solved. I'm not trying to fool anyone into thinking the Qur'an is saying something it isn't. Jcecil and I have corrected people when things are tried to be brought of the Bible that aren't there, and I've been corrected several times myself. If the Qur'an isn't saying this, the truth will come out clear. "Truth stands out clear from error." (2.256)
JBJ
LAST EDITED ON 11-12-01 AT 01:22 AM (GMT)[p]Greetings All!
This thread seems to have become a bit hostile, and I apologize in advance to the administrators if I am simply adding fuel to the fire. There are some points above that I wish to comment upon though.
>
> First of all
>I will take on your
>question above. I myself and
>others here have made it
>amply and very clearl in
>no uncertain terms that we
>Muslims are ONLY required to
>just believe in the original
>Revelations given to all the
>previous prophets by God (Allah)
>in times gone by; in
>this case it has been
>made evident to you that
>while the Qur'an "confirms" the
>previous Scriptures, it does so
>ONLY in the manner of
>affirming the basic message of
>Monotheism contained in the previous
>Scriptures and partly as relating
>to the similar stories of
>some of the commmon Prophets
>mentioned in the OT/NT and
>the Qur'an, say for example,
>the similar stories of Prophets
>Noah & the Flood, Moses
>& Pharoah, Lot (Lut), David,
>Solomon etc. (Peace be upon
>all of them). But each
>of the Books have significant
>differences in their respective accounts
>of these past stories eg.
>Prophet Noah (PBUH) & the
>Flood, but the basic message
>is similar and the moral
>lessons & warnings for mankind
>are the same. But having
>said that, it has also
>been made crystal clear repeatedly,
>by myself in my posts
>& by others here, that
>the Qur'an DOES NOT confirm
>word for word each &
>every passage contained in the
>Torah, OT or NT since
>their composition or compilation at
>any given point of time
>in history, specially those passages
>inthe OT/NT which shamelessly violate
>the Unity of God (Allah),
>and/or the Indivisibility of God's
>(Allah's) Names and Attributes.
>The reasons are specifically mentioned
>in the Qur'an that the
>previous Scriptures were NOT spared
>of alterations, whether they may
>be either physical, verbal, metaphorical
>changes etc. to the previous
>Revelations at the hands of
>their custodians (priests, rabbis, Church
>authorities etc.). The alterations could
>have assumed the shape of
>either additions, deletions, misinterpretation of
>passages, wilful misguidance or simply
>lax implementations of God's (Allah's)
>Law or disobedience.
>
Dr Qaisar -- I have written elsewhere that I have come to accept the internal logic of your position that the Qur'an only affirms certain monotheistic portions of the Bible. Or, more precisely, I admit that I don't enough Arabic language and history to pursue the point any further.
JBJ has not accepted the internal logic of that position, or at least not fully. But aside from this, the quesion you are responding to, posted by JBJ, makes no reference to this particular question.
JBJ is asking a completely different question. He is asking how to interpret a particular hadith in regards to the question of original sin. I see absolutely no reference to his argument about the Qur'an confirming prior scriptures. And he seems to admit in the way he phrased his question that he knows you do not have the concept of 'original sin'.
> Therefore, in the
>light of the above, it
>is completely futile bordering on
>abject stupidity in trying to
>elicit comments from us Muslims
>regarding Heretical passages taken from
>the Torah as you have
>done in your reply. Why
>do you want to waste
>our time? Such passages are
>from your Books, so you
>deal with them.
In your original responses to me immediately after September 11, I found you to be respectful. Over the last couple of months, your responses, while infrequent, are growing increasingly hostile to both JBJ and myself. By the way, JBJ and I do NOT know each other, though we seem to have some common points of view.
At any rate, what did JBJ write that elicited the charge of "stupidity"? I have tried to re-read this, and though I am completely unfamiliar with the hadith traditions he quotes, there does not appear to be anything "stupid" about this question.
Indeed, though I do not have a copy of the Qur'an handy at this moment, I do remember reading a verse that would seem to indicate all human beings are sinners. Though I have never got around to asking the question on this site, I TOO wondered how to interpret this passage in light of the fact that Asif and others have said that Islam denies the doctrine of original sin.
What I am saying is that behind every question I have already actually posted, there are other questions I have about Islam.
I still have unasked questions about the use of violence and terrorism by people claiming to be Muslims, prohibitions against pork, the role of women in Islam, polygamy, slavery, jihn (what are they), the crusades and jihad, original sin, predestination, evidence of Biblical corruption, divisions among Muslims, how prophecy occurs, some possible apparent contradictions in the Qur'an (which may be just my own lack of understanding), etc.... The list goes on and on.
These questions are not intended as attacks on your religion. They are simply things I want to know and appreciate better about your beliefs.
The fact that I have so many questions on such sensitive topics is the reason that I have asked elsewhere for a summary of what is beautiful to you all personally in Islam, rather than a bunch of Qur'anic quotes and rational arguments.
Perhaps you are finding it frustrating that your religion is not as "self-evident" to Christians as you had hoped, and it will take much longer to convince one of us that we are wrong than you had hoped. Nevertheless, if your religion is true, and ours is false, you should not need to resort to insults to make your point, and our many questions should be welcomed.
Ruqayya has suggested several times that I visit http://www.meccacentric.com. I did. However, unless I am willing to spend money on tapes I cannot preview, this site is about as helpful as looking up "Islam" in the Encyclopedia Britanica.
I come to this site precisely because it allows interaction. I really wish I could speak with an Iman somewhere in depth in a face to face conversation. I don't know one though. So I come here where I can post my questions and respond to your questions one by one as we hopefully grow in mutual understanding.
My point is simply that I feel that your reaction was uncalled for.
>It is,
>indeed, heretical, blasphemous and a
>pagan tradition to say that
>God came as a human
>being on earth or assumed
>a human shape for whatever
>reasons.
I accept that this is what Muslims believe. However, like JBJ, I wish I could understand WHY Muslims believe this.
Like JBJ, I fail to see how saying Allah became a man makes Allah "weak", "undignified" or "dirty".
Instead, I see the doctrine of incarnation and Trinity as Allah's way of revealing the dignity of humanity.
I also fail to see why it is logically necessary to believe that such a statement inherently means there is division in Allah.
I also fail to understand the logic of why this is automatically idolatry.
Simply quoting the Qur'an at me is not an argument either. All that proves is that you are not the only one who holds the opinion.
Every argument put forth explaining the Muslim position on this matter mis-states what Christians believe about the Trinity. You all seem to attack "straw-men".
Thus, there is a degree to which I wholeheartily agree with the Muslim critiques against Allah having partners, biological children, and so forth.... The trouble is that Christians do not say Allah has partners or biological children, yet you accuse us of irrationality and idolatry.
SUBHAAN-ALLAH, (GLORY BE TO
>ALLAH), God (Allah) IS FAR
>ABOVE TO WHAT THEY (humans)
>ASCRIBE TO HIM, OR WRITE
>ABOUT HIM WHICH DOES NOT
>BEFIT HIS MAJESTY!!! It is
>derogatory to the Dignity &
>Majesty of the Most High
>that He came to the
>earth or anywhere as a
>human being or anything resembling
>His Creation!!
Again, WHY is this beneath the dignity of Allah? Whatever Allah does is dignified by definition?
From the Christian perspective, the issue is not that Allah does something beneath dignity. Rather, in becoming a man, Allah reveals the great dignity of the human race!
To put it another way, how can we be sure that our own dignity is greater than that of a monkey, or a dolphin, or space aliens, or an angel or a jihn?
The Christian answer to these sorts of questions is that Allah, the Most Dignified One, loves us enough to become one of us.
>This is the
>express reason why Muslims reject
>passages of the Bible that
>violate the Indivisibility & Unity
>of Allah Most High. So
>please stop quoting irrelevant passages
>from the Torah or anywhere
>else and asking for our
>comments. These are nothing but
>CRAP, plain and simple!!
>
Such insulting language, but no real argument to back up what you say. Why is the Christian position "CRAP, plain and simple!!"??
If the only argument you can make is to quote the Qur'an, we could counter that your passages are irrelevant and heretical, just as you say of our texts.
If we are as irrational as you claim, can't you present an argumet using our very own words (not a rephrased misunderstanding of what you think we said) to show how we have made a logical error?
And regarding the charge of heresy, since our books were written earlier, the case that your text departs from the original tradition is stronger.
You'll probably counter that the Jews disregard the New Testament on these same grounds (the Torah was earlier). But then that means we should all be Jews rather than Muslims.
But if you wish to argue that the later text is higher because it comes later in time, than we should all be Mormons (followers of the prophet Joseph Smith who came in the nineteenth century, and teaches we all gods).
There is no logical content in what you wrote above. All there is is insults to Christians. Is this really the approach of the so-called religion of peace?
> It has been
>mentioned that the Angels of
>God (Allah), by the Will
>of Allah, have taken human
>forms to convey or carry
>out certain Commands or Decrees
>of Allah, like the guests
>of Prophets Abraham (PBUH) &
>to Prophet LOT (Lut,PBUH) or
>to Mary etc. They are
>servants of GOD carrying out
>specific Commands of God (Allah);
>there is no need for
>God to come to earth
>in any shape to carry
>out His Own Commands!
>
Christians do not teach that God (Allah) NEEDED to come to earth. Rather, we teach that he WISHED to come to earth to offer his very self to us in love.
> Now, to your
>quotation of the hadith above.
>It simply defies all logic
>and reasoning and baffles the
>mind that how could you
>have ever thought or imagined
>that there was ANY CONNECTION
>between the meaning of that
>hadith and the Christian concept
>of ‘Original Sin‘??? I feel
>like bashing my head against
>a wall when I hear
>or read such moronic allusions.
I sensed this frustration before in some of your responses to me, as well in this response to JBJ. I am sorry that it frustrates you that we see our own ideas in the words of some of your own hadith, or even in the Qur'an. However, I think JBJ was pretty clearly asking how you interpret the passage, with an awareness that he may have been reading something into the text that wasn't intended by the author. I do not think the "allusion" was "moronic".
Honestly, I don't know if it is clear in my writing, but I keep seeking for some common ground somewhere between Islam and Christianity. Maybe there is none, but that would seem odd to me. After all, we are all human beings, and therefore I would assume that there has to be some common human experience, or common human method of understanding, or common human ideas that we can use as a starting point to clarify to each other what we each believe. If there is no common ground, we probably should have no interaction whatsoever.
>But no, Alhamdulillah, I have
>been guided to the Straight
>Path (Islam) by Allah Most
>High!! Was it in Chinese
>that you could not understand
>the meaning of that Hadith??
>In simple terms & briefly,
>that hadith deals with the
>fact that the account or
>record of a person's good
>or bad deeds, Faith or
>disbelief etc. are written beforehand
>because God (Allah) knows everything
>in the Universe, past, present,
>or future! Thus, the instruction
>by God to the angels
>to record the deeds of
>every human being. What remains
>to be carried out is
>only the occurance of an
>event which has been previously
>decreed or recorded by Allah.
>This is the concept of
>PRE-ORDAINMENT, one of the 6
>cardinal articles of Islamic Faith.
>Haven't you heard of the
>Biblical expression: "So it was
>written, so shall it be
>done"? But this must NOT
>be confused in any way
>with the self-illusion that it
>is God (Allah) Himself who
>has Pre-ordained in a person's
>fate that he/she should commit
>evil deeds or sins in
>life!! Because God (Allah) does
>NOT Command anyone to commit
>sins or evil but ONLY
>to do good deeds for
>his/her spiritual benefit and to
>worship Him alone!! Human beings
>have been given the freedom
>to choose the right or
>wrong Path after Guidance from
>Allah has come to them
>making things clear to them!
>
I think the hadith is clear enough, and your explaination is adequate. The question that I think JBJ is asking, and one I ask myself, is why do good people still have some sins? Why does Allah not simply pre-ordain good people to be purely good? Why must ONLY the balance be towards good, with some evil mixed into every human life? Why isn't it just pure good against pure evil?
In Christianity, we have an explanaition for this called "original sin", and a resolution for this problem on the cross.
If Islam denies the crucifixion and the doctrine of original sin, then the question we Christians ask of Islam is "Why do good people do evil?"
>
> If you want
>to read some of my
>addtional comments regarding the above
>hadith, you might find it
>a little interesting to read
>an article posted by Sis.
>Nzingha titled "questions about hadith
>reliability" in the "Holy Qur'an
>& Hadith" Forum and my
>replies to it way back
>in February this year (20-2-01).
>Anyway, once again briefly, the
>3 periods consisting of 40
>days each mentioned in the
>hadith, add upto 120 days
>or 4 months of intra-uterine
>life. After 3 months of
>embryonic life, the embryo becomes
>a true fetus wherein the
>fetus now has a definite
>human shape (morphogenesis) and has
>been clothed in skin &
>covered with muscles (flesh). Before
>this time of 1st 3
>months the human embryo is
>rather unreognisable, especially in the
>1st 40 days, where it
>exists no more than in
>the form of a mere
>"clot of blood" and later,
>as a "lump of flesh",
>though, the process of development
>is an ongoing & continous
>process!! Remarkable isn't it, that
>such fairly accurate descriptions of
>human embryogenesis are contained in
>not only the above Hadith
>but also in the Qur'an
>itself!!! 1400 years ago, no
>modern Biology, no microsopes tp
>peep thru!! Thus, I ask
>you & others humbly, from
>where could this information have
>come from??? Not from a
>human being certainly! Surely, it
>could not have come from
>other than the One who
>Knows All things, One who
>Sees All things, One who
>Creates All Creations, the Creator
>Supreme, Allah Most High. The
>God of Moses, the God
>of Jesus and the God
>of Mohammad. Peace be upom
>all of them. SUBHAAN-ALLAH!!
>
You assert that this knowledge in the Qur'an of embryology is proof it comes from Allah. As remarkable as it may seem that someone might know about embryology before the microscope, I do not believe it impossible that the source for this information could be human science. The Egyptians knew things about construction, architecture, and astronomy that were lost for millenia, and rediscovered at a later date. The same is true of Aztec tribes in the Americas. It is arrogant of modern people to ancestors knew less than us in all matters of science.
More importantly, it is also anachronistic to read modern meanings of words into ancient texts. The passages quoted were not used by seventh or eighth century Imans to suddenly invent the science of embryology. Modern embryology came much later. In other words, there was nothing so absolutely clear in these passages that a reader would naturally come to the conclusion this was intended to speak to embryology -- to say it does is to impose modern meanings into ancient texts.
My point is only that this so-called proof of the Qur'an, even if it's true, is not absolutely convincing to me.
From a purely rational perspective, you could be accused of anachronistic readings of vague ancient literature, OR evidence may surface that seventh century Arabs knew about human embryology prior to the composition of the Qur'an. I have addressed this issue in more depth elsewhere. Either way, there is enough room for doubt that this argument does not prove anything conclusively.
I apologize to everyone if I just seem obtuse in everything I am writing. That is not my intent. I have so many questions for all of you. I wish we could speak one-on-one and face-to-face with Bibles and Qur'ans in our hands.
Peace!
jcecil3
Greetings everyone,
I noticed that the tension in this thread is growing very quickly, and I want to break that up a little bit. Maybe this sounds stupid, and a little cliche too, but if everyone reading through this would stop a moment to take a deep breath, and clear their head, I think the passion could die down, at least a little. I find it very helpful to laugh at myself for getting so worked up over just a long page of words. :-)
But of course words have meaning, and these more meaning than most. But look at what's happening! We're moving off from the words we're supposed to be studying, of the Qur'an, hadith, and Bible, and looking at mere comments and pointless insults. I think that doing such is an insult to our dignity of humans beings. (Now would be the appropriate time to laugh. :7)
This might be a good time to state my position on working in this forum in general. Obviously I'm a Christian, but have a great respect for Islam. In my interaction with Muslim friends I see a great devotion to God, manifest especially through salat and right now through siyam. The respect for God is much greater than in many Christian friends. I truly wish that (at least in my own circle) the average Christian could be as devoted as the average Muslim.
Several people have implied (if not stated) that I've been attacking the Qur'an, and that simply isn't true. I've never argued a contradiction in the Qur'an or that it shouldn't be followed. What I've written about the Qur'an backing up the Torah and now about this hadith hasn't been to destroy what they say, it's been to impliment them.
A Muslim should not believe or follow merely what his imam or community says, but the words of the Noble Qur'an and Rasul Allah himself. If one says to believe in this or that, then I say to Muslims, believe in this or that. It is a great danger to be ignorant of one's own teachings, many have been destroyed because of it. I greatly admire the Islamic community's reliance on logical reasoning and sound arguements. Again, many Christians could learn from this, and many Christians need this.
I'll never tell a Muslim to convert to Christianity. If I do, promptly kick me out of the forum. It's not my place to force beliefs, so I won't do it. If a Muslim wants to convert, convert. If not, then he shouldn't! I merely try to show the truth, whether one chooses to follow everything in the Qur'an or hadith or anything, that is entirely their own choice. Truth is truth. Belief is choice.
Well. I don't know about everyone else, but I feel a lot better. But then I'm a writer, and expressing feelings always helps for me. Now, if we're calmer, can I get into some less lighthearted grounds without getting yelled at or causing a comotion? I sure hope so. Let's see.
Jcecil mentioned that Dr. Quaisar explained his position on the Qur'an-confirming-Bible quotes somewhere else. I haven't been here as long as either of them, so I haven't read everything. If someone could point me to that explanation I'd be grateful.
If Jcecil and I seem to have similar view points, or to know each other, it's only because we both believe the Bible to be God's accurate revelation, have some understanding of it, and are studying Islam. I think anyone else who had those things in common would act just as similar as we do.
However, I don't understand Dr. Quaisar's interpretation God's wisdom to fit in with what the hadith says. The text plainly says what is written decides behavior. God is the ultimate power of what's written, so isn't it God that decides behavior? I'm not trying to pull anything out of the text that isn't there, it's a simple or matter of what the point of the words are. I don't want to impress ideas that aren't in line with Muhammad's teachings, so if these are ideas are wrong, then just give the correct ones and what makes them correct.
I don't really understand Jcecil's question. After all, the Torah says Adam and Eve were once good, that is, perfect, and yet they did evil.
Jcecil makes some good points. Other civilization did have parts of their science that baffle historians now, does this prove their pantheons are real? Certainly not.
However, I think he's also a little mistaken on some parts. (Oh look! He disagrees with someone of his own kind! Just a little joke there.) Embryology has actually existed for some time. Galen, a Greek, did some influencial work with it around 150 AD. I've never heard of any books by Muslims written a thousand years ago because they were startled that someone had this knowledge, but we must still look at facts. Jcecil seems to accept the hadith as scientific, in which case the hadith must be given more attention. If it is accurate and totally out of place with 7th century Arab science, then it will be obvious that it has some extra-human influence.
But enough chitchat, let's look at the text!
A human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period.
Hmm. Not really much in this exerpt. Of course if we wanted to discuss embryology in the Qur'an, we'd have a lot more to talk about. Here we have this information on the chronology of the embyro:
Days 1-40 - put together
Days 41-80 - clot of blood
Days 81-120 - piece of flesh
I'm no embryologist. Before studying Islam I didn't know anything besides the sperm, the egg, and nine months later an infant. But just from that I already knew that at the beginning stage the embryo is "put together." And at some later point I would say that it becomes "flesh." But what does "piece of flesh" mean exactly? From the Arabic I mean, it seems important, but I've never read anything on it so I can't comment.
Why does it say the human is put together "in 40 days"? Does it mean that sperm takes 40 days to enter the egg? Or that some kind of bond is lasting between them for 40 days? I'm confused.
And what about "clot of blood"? That does seem strange. So we move from the union of sperm and egg, to blood, to person-like. Very curious. You're saying, Dr Quaisar, that you and I were once blood? You'll have to excuse me, but I find this a little hard to believe. What is the purpose of being turned into blood?
And what exactly is your position as a doctor, may I ask?
If I seem to be asking more questions than answering, it's because I really don't know what embryology says. I know what the Qur'an and hadith say about embryology but don't know how to link it with science.
It seems strange that you said, "After 3 months of embryonic life, the embryo becomes a true fetus wherein the fetus now has a definite human shape (morphogenesis) and has been clothed in skin & covered with muscles (flesh)." It would seem that a true fetus is when the embryo has a soul, but the hadith says the soul comes at 120 days, not 90. Also there is no new stage mentioned by the hadith at 90 days.
To conclude, the first stage is common sense. The second Dr Quaisar will have to explain. The third stage is either common sense also or will have to be explained. But "remarkable" is a long shot.
One last comment. Dr Quaisar asked where the scientific information could come from if not by a man. There are more in the world than man and God. I don't think it too wild to say a jinn or demon knows more science than the 7th century man.
Remember, stay cool. The truth will reveal itself. God bless our study!
JBJ
Hello Hassanalmuslim,
Don't take this offensively, but I disagree. First about the Torah. You may want to read the discussion in "Forum Confusion" or my short post responding to Tayeb in this thread.
Second, I assume you agree that Pre-Assignment isn't the same as predestination, but the hadith says that the writing decides a man's behavior.
Third, although not proven, it is possible jinn knew scientific knowledge concerning embryology, not only God with his angels.
Fourth, I don't think your quoted verses say anything about science. If I don't finish discussing I'll finish later.
82.7,8Who Created you then fashioned you in due proportions, then Gave you the upright form. In whatever shape and looks He Wills, Assembles you.
You mentioned embyryo, fetus, fertilization, egg, organs, molecules, and DNA, but I find none of these words in the verse, or even any words or phrases that resemble them. Let's pretend we didn't know any embryology for a momement and see what the verse looked like to the Muslims who first heard it.
Who (God) Created you
The Torah and Zabur said this before, nothing miraculous.
then fashioned you in due proportions,
Proportion: size, balance, ratio, part. Look at yourself, God fashioned you with a certain height and weight, the size of each side of your body is in balance, your appendages are in ratio with the rest of your body so that you don't fall as you walk or anything, and he fashioned each part. No mention of embryology. Nothing miraculous.
then Gave you the upright form.
Well obviously, we don't walk on all fours, we stand upright.
In whatever shape and looks He Wills, Assembles you.
So he makes us how he wills, no big deal. But very interesting, you said:
The word “assemble” indicates that there are basic elements to be assembled in order to form the shape and the looks of the human. That is, different combinations of these basic elements result in different physical characteristics of the human. The so-called “blue print of life” was discovered recently. It is a molecule that contains the combination of these basic elements which characterizes the human. This molecule was given the scientific name “DeoxyriboNucleic Acid” or for short “DNA”.
Where do you get all that from? Yes, "assemble" means there must be pieces that are combined to form the assembled human. How does that predict DNA? Why can't it mean body parts? 1 head + 1 abdomen + 2 legs + 2 arms = assembled person, right? Look at the Zabur:
139.13You knit me together in my mother's womb.
"Kniting" also means putting together from other parts, but I've never heard a Jew or Christian says a human is knit from his gene code.
3.6It is He Who Shapes you in the wombs as He Pleases, there is no GOD but He, The Exalted in might, The Wise.
It may surprise you, but my nine year old sister knows that babies are shaped in the womb. She's never read embryology, looked through a microscope, listened to lectures, etc, etc. Should we call her a prophet because of her God given miraculous knowledge?
23.12-14And We Have Created the human from a quintessence of clay. Then We Made him a drop of sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed. Then We Created the drop of sperm into a clot of congealed blood, and Created that clot into a lump, and Created out of that lump, bones, and clothed the bones with flesh, then We Developed out of it another creation, so blessed be ALLAH, the Best of creators.
Now we have some content! Finally! "Clay" could mean solid and water, sure, but that's nothing miraculous. Everyone knows humans are made of solids and liquids.
You mention the ovum, I don't see the ovum mentioned in the Qur'an, so why bring it up? Here's something very interesting you say:
ALLAH (SWT) Says “Then We Created the drop of sperm into a clot of congealed blood”. This describes the formation of the “morula” (a solid mass of cells), which happens a few days after fertilization.
Yet the hadith I mentioned, which you and Dr Quaisar say is accurage, says the blood clot stage takes place from about the 40th day to the 80th day, the first few days as you say. The hadith is the word of Rasul Allah, so part of the verse must not refer to the morula because the morula is formed far too early. Similarly, you go on to say:
Then ALLAH (SWT) Says “and Created that clot into a lump”. This describes the development of the “blastocyst” (a hollow ball of cells consists of internal cavity, outer cells and inner cell mass), which occurs 7 to 8 days after fertilization.
Again, the hadith tells us this time frame is around the 80th day, passing from a blood clot to a piece of flesh, or lump as is apparently translated here. So this must not refer to the blastocyst which is formed too early again.
Then ALLAH (SWT) Says “and Created out of that lump, bones”. This describes the development of the “embryo”, which takes place during the first two months after fertilization.
What you're describing happens two months, 60 days after fertilization, but our embryo is at between 80 and 120 days. So you must be mistaken.
Then ALLAH (SWT) Says “And Clothed the bones with flesh”. This describes the formation of the “fetus”. Which occurs after the second month from fertilization. At that time, all the principle adult organs have been developed. Then ALLAH (SWT) Says “then We Developed out of it another creation, …”. This describes the completion and functioning of all the organs in their final forms.
Again, we've lost our time frame, the 60th day instead of at leas the 80th.
[i]I ask you to use your human sense of logic. [i/]
Now, let's get one thing clear: I hate biology! I can't the difference between RNA or mRNA, let alone the blastocyst from the morula. I have logic. That's about it. I've used logic just as you asked, I haven't said a word about the science of embryology, I don't know any of it! You could have made all fertilization stuff up and I wouldn't have a clue!
But I know logic. I know that your first two verses need a great leap over a chasm of missing logic to get the conclusions that you did. I know what the hadith says, and know logically that 60 cannot equal 80, nor can 7 or 8 equal 80.
Now, I'm not disproving the Qur'an at all. I'm merely saying that your connections are wrong. Whether this verse does have proper connections with science will have to be found by someone who can scrawl through the plethora of pronounciations, certainly not me!
Best wishes and God bless!
JBJ
LAST EDITED ON 11-12-01 AT 02:57 PM (GMT)[p]Dear JBJ:
Our disagreement is on the essence of belief. We as Muslims don't associate anyone to Allah (God):
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah 112)
And we agree to disagree:
Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.
(Holy Qur'an Surah 109)
The whole essence of 'trinity' is contrary to Islam however hard you try to convince me, or any other Muslim.
Now on 'trinity' I have shown the origins of the word and that your meaning is incorrect.
About Hinduism having an inbuilt concept of 'trinity', Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are aligned as the transcendent godhead. If you want to find out more, you may find the information from the Hindus themselves. Here's an interesting link:
http://www.hindunet.org/god/trinity/index.htm
The whole concept of 'trinity' is older than Christianity and in Hinduism can be traced back to year 300 before Jesus.
:-)
Tayeb
Assalamu-alaikum:
I'd like to clarify to those who read his thread the Hindu concept of 'trinity'. The 'trinity' is called Sat-Tat-Aum, the "being", the "that ness" or "immanence" and the "word" or "holy spirit". This is much like the Christian trinity of the "father", "son" and "holy ghost". The "trinity" in Hinduism represents the "divine" in its threefold nature and function. Each aspect of the "trinity" contains and includes the others.
Tayeb
Hi Tayeb,
I agree, we can disagree. The seemingly endless explanations of the trinity in this forum have been to state the real belief, not tritheism which is so often mistaken for it. You seem to have a good grasp of what trinity means. There are parts of God that Islam and the trinity agree on, and parts where they disagree, and yes we agree on that.
I don't know why I thought trinity means tri-unity, in any case yes, I'm wrong.
Thanks for the reference site, I'll certainly check it out when I can. Thanks. God bless.
JBJ
Greetings JBJ!
Allow me to clarify the questions you asked of a fellow Christian. I obviously was not very clear.
>
>I don't really understand Jcecil's question.
> After all, the Torah
>says Adam and Eve were
>once good, that is, perfect,
>and yet they did evil.
>
Yes, according to Christianity, Adam and Eve were created in a state of perfection without the taint of original sin. Yet they chose freely to sin.
Once they made this choice, the doctrine of 'original sin' maintains that there was a consequence of their sin entering the world that effected all of creation. One of the effects of original sin is death. Another is bad things happenning to good people. Another consequence of original is "concupiscience". This latter consequence is an inclination to sin that is passed on to the entire human race.
The doctrine of original sin is an empirically verifiable religious truth. If there were no concupiscience, one would expect that SOME human beings would go through life without ever sinning. But this has only happenned with two people: Christ and his mother.
Protestants do not agree with Catholics about the part that Mary never sinned. Catholics believe that since God was to take flesh in the womb of the Virgin, his humanity would have been threatened with sin in her womb if she were a sinner. Thus, we believe that God granted a special grace to Mary to make her like Eve.
Furthermore, at the annunciation, Mary could have said no to God (she was a free person), and the incarnation would not have occurred (or at least not in her womb). The angel greeted Mary as "highly favored one", or "full of grace". The phrase "full of grace" is taken by Catholics to imply that Mary was full of God's grace from the moment of her conception (similar to Eve).
Thus, in Catholic belief, Mary is a perfect example of what I am trying to say. Eve and Mary were both untainted by original sin. Both Mary and Eve are human creatures who in no way are considered incarnations of God (like Jesus). Mary and Eve were both presented with choices to trustingly obey God or to trust in themselves. Eve chose to sin. Mary chose to put her trust in the Lord ("Be it done unto me according to your word." and, "My soul rejoices in God my savior.").
In other words, if 'original sin' is not a reality that is passed down to everyone who is not granted a special grace by God, then we would expect half of the human race to live lives like Mary.
I understand that you are probably a Protestant, JBJ. So forget about the argument of Mary for a moment. The point is that if something wasn't lost for the entire human race with original sin, then Christ's crucifixion is not necessary for our salvation.
Again, 'original sin' is an empirical religious truth. We know it is true because we see the effects of original sin in our own hearts, and we see its effects in other people.
>
>However, I think he's also a
>little mistaken on some parts.
> (Oh look! He
>disagrees with someone of his
>own kind! Just a
>little joke there.) Embryology
>has actually existed for some
>time. Galen, a Greek,
>did some influencial work with
>it around 150 AD.
>I've never heard of any
>books by Muslims written a
>thousand years ago because they
>were startled that someone had
>this knowledge, but we must
>still look at facts.
>Jcecil seems to accept the
>hadith as scientific, in which
>case the hadith must be
>given more attention. If
>it is accurate and totally
>out of place with 7th
>century Arab science, then it
>will be obvious that it
>has some extra-human influence.
>
You make a good point about Galen. I had forgotten this. I hadn't read Galen since about 1987, when I was more involved in the political debates on abortion.
You misunderstood me if you thought I were saying the hadith is scientific. What I said was very similar to your own arguments. I said the passages were so vague, that it could be argued that Muslims are reading modern scientific theories into the text, where the text does not clearly indicate the modern meaning. But I also was pointing out that IF a more clear hadith were produced that was not vague, there could have been human sources for this knowledge -- as you point out with the case of Galen.
Peace and blessing!
jcecil3
Dear JBJ:
I know where you read or may be the source of your understanding that trinity means "tri-unity" which in any case using the knowledge of origins of the word it is wrong. An early source is the famous "Creed of Nicea" in 325C.E. Among other things, it said:
"Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith. For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire he will undoubtedly be lost forever. This is what the Catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity. We distinguish among the persons, but we do not divide the substance. For the Father is a distinct person; the Son is a distinct person; and the Holy Spirit is a distinct person. Still the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty. What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal. Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being. Thus there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being. Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, and the Holy Spirit is omnipotent. Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But there are not three gods, but one God. The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. There as not three lords, but one Lord. For according to Christian truth, we must profess that each of the persons individually is God; and according to Christian religion we are forbidden to say that there are three gods or lords. But the entire three persons are coeternal and coequal with one another. So that, as we have said, we worship complete unity in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity. This, then, is what he who wishes to be saved must believe about the Trinity. This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved. Amen."
:-)
Tayeb
Hi Tayeb,
I think you're right, I have read that before and my memory probably turned the facts around. Many thanks.
JBJ
Ruqayyah
21-12-2001, 18:18
Bismillahirrahim
First we would like to answer the question on why it is not impossible for God to 'enter a woman's womb'.Yes,of course,God may do everything He wills.But...
Sister Mardhiah had already answered that question somewhere in this forum, actually.Let's take her example-because I think it is logical enough.
A president,of course,may do everything he wants to.But ask him to sweep the floor in public.He can do it,of course.However of course he won't do that.He is a president.
I do hope you will get the picture.
Second is about Jesus.Why do you say Jesus is God?Okay,so he was born without a father.But look at Adam.I'm sure Christians believe in Adam as the first human created by God.HE was created WITHOUT a father AND a mother.
God is Great.And He is Allah S.W.T. and Him only.You can't see Him.You haven't even see this world throughly.You haven't even see ALL of the fishes in the sea,ALL the beasts in the jungle,ALL of the different creatures Allah created.So how are you going to see GOD???
Third is The Quran.It is the MOST truthful Book of all-sent by Allah to his Prophet Muhammad PBUH, to all the people in this world.
016.089: One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
God had promised to protect it-and Insya'Allah (by God's will),it will be protected.To prove on how true The Quran is,try to make one similar to it.Try to gather the finest poets in the world-and create verses similar to the Quran.
Plus just try to read and understand it.EVERYTHING is written in there.Everything including the world.
The formation of a human being,the stars,the trees...everything.And it is already written of course,BEFORE all the scientists were born.This shows that the One who writes it knows all about the world.He is the Creator of the world.He is...Allah S.W.T.
The Quran is not a poetry,
069.041 It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!
It is not the word of Muhammad PBUH,
053.003 Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
Prophet Muhammad PBUH,of course,didnt know how to read...neither he could write...so the idea of The Quran..written by him,is unacceptable.
That is all.Wassalam.
Ruqayyah & Fadhilah Ramli
LAST EDITED ON 21-12-01 AT 08:25 PM (GMT)[p]Greetings All!
Regarding the analogy of the President sweeping the floor, in my day to day life, I am a Manager -- a boss with many people reporting to me. From time to time, I go out and do the most menial jobs. I do it for three reasons:
1) To show the team that I am with them -- to build morale.
2) To show the team that I can do their jobs as well or better than them, so that they will listen when I tell them how to do their jobs.
3) To get certain tasks done efficiently that cannot be done by anyone else at that time.
So why would God become a man?
1) To show that he is with us and loves us -- to build the morale of the human race.
2) To show us how to be human better than we have done on our own.
3) To accomplish tasks (salvation) that we cannot do on our own.
As a manager, do I do the grunt work ALL the time? Of course not. My main responsibilities are different than my direct reports. But there is no loss of dignity or respect from my employees when I do their task. Indeed, it gains respect. So it is with God when he joins us. Christians accept this as good news, not a sign of weakness in God.
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
vancouver
20-03-2002, 14:30
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 20-03-02 AT 01:34 PM (GMT)]Three main religions:-
Judaism, Christendom, Islam.
One God, One Religion
1 If we really wish to surrender ourselves to God, we have to settle in our mind an important problem regarding religion. Is it God's will that there are so many religions in the world? Is he content to see people trying to worship him in many different organizations, with different beliefs, religious rituals and even different moral standards?
2 The answer has to be No. God is a God of harmony. But the different religions of mankind are not in harmony with each other. They fight one another, persecute one another and contradict one another. Imagine that you were lost, and you asked four different people how you could get home. What would you think, if one told you to travel north, another said to travel south, the third said you had to go eastward, and the fourth, westward, in order to arrive back home? Could they all be right? Of course not. And similarly, all the religions of this world cannot be right, either, when they give contradictory instructions as to what we should do to submit to God.
3 It is interesting, however, that the three main religions mentioned earlier, although they disagree about many things, all agree on one point: there is only one God. True, Christendom confuses this with her doctrine of the Trinity, teaching that there is one God made up of three persons. But the Bible, which Christendom accepts as holy, does not teach the Trinity. The Bible teaches the oneness of God.
4 Thus it is that in the Hebrew Bible we read: "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4) In the Christian Scriptures we read: "There is . . . one God and Father [Life-Giver or Creator] of all persons, who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:4, 6) In the Qur´an (also spelled Koran), it is written in the Unity (Al-Ikhlas) chapter, in the first verse: "Say: Allah is One."
5 However, these three religions all describe God differently. It is as if you wished to learn about a certain important official, and you asked three different neighbors what kind of man he was. One said he was tall and blond, the other said he was small and dark, and the third one said he was of average height and gray-haired. While all your three neighbors would thus show that they believed this official existed, it would be obvious that at least two of them did not really know him personally.
6 In the same way, when different religions describe God in contradictory ways, we have to ask ourselves: 'Which one is true, and which ones are mistaken?' If we really wish to submit ourselves to God, we will be anxious to find the answer to that question. The most important subject we can ever study is the truth about God.
The Need to Search for the Truth
1 Actually, we need to know the truth about everything we have dealings with. A businessman wants to know the truth when he is settling accounts. He does not let sentiment or prejudice blind him, otherwise he is likely to lose money. When we get married, we want to know the truth about our future partner. If we allow ourselves to be deceived, we will likely be unhappy later on. Yes, if we do not know the truth about a matter, we invariably lose out in one way or another. This is also true with respect to religion. The problem is, many people for one reason or another are not inclined to discuss religious matters.
2 Here someone may say: 'But I have a religion. I belong to the same religion my parents and my grandparents belonged to. How can that be wrong?' Yes, at birth most of us received some religious faith as a heritage from our parents. Often, the name of that religion is put on our identity papers without our even being asked.
3 But do we deserve honor or credit for belonging to a religion that we received from our parents, if we have never done anything to check whether that religion is right or wrong? A man born in Italy would likely be born into a Catholic family, and he would grow up a Catholic. A man born in Burma would likely be of the Buddhist religion. If a man is born in a Muslim family, he will likely grow up as a Muslim.
4 Surely all of this means nothing as to his submitting himself to God. It is purely an accident. The man who truly surrenders himself to God is the one who carefully examines all aspects of the religion he was born into. If he finds it is true, he remains with it. But if he finds it is false, he sets out to find the true religion.
5 Some find it hard to reason on the subject of religion. They are strongly convinced theirs is the right religion and no more discussion is needed. In this, we may be a little like a fanatical supporter of a certain sports team. As you know, when a fanatical supporter watches his own team play another one, he supports his own, however badly it plays. If the opponents win, he may say that they cheated, or the referee was on their side, or something else happened. He thus ignores the good qualities of the other team, and all the bad qualities of his own.
6 However, to see the true facts in a sports engagement, you have to be impartial. And this is even more so in the case of religion. If our mind is captive to prejudice, we will never see the truth. Is it reasonable to say whether something is right or wrong before you have looked into it, or before you have even thought about it?
7 Yes, we may have received our religion from our parents, and we respect our parents. We owe them much, and many of the things they have given us are very good. But that does not mean we have to accept everything they say without thinking. Our parents are human, as we are. They make mistakes, as we do. In fact, many of the problems that we have to live with today are because of things that our parents' generation did. They did not do them deliberately to make things hard for us. They just made mistakes, because of being human.
8 Hence, a wise man will examine the things he has received from his parents, including his religion. He will keep the good things and reject those things that are not good. This is essential if he is to find the truth about religion.
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Greetings and good day to all.
If you study Islam even slightly, you will find that Islam...the name given to this religion by God, by the way...and not something named by people...is not something new, but in fact the continuance and ongoing confirmation of the previous religions (i.e. Judaism and Christianity).
In fact, it is not the religions themselves which are in conflict with one another...for they are very much in harmony. Each one in succession completing upon the previous one. A logical transformation of progression.
It is, however, sadly, the followers of the religions which are creating the non-harmony in the world, the so-called religious wars, and the many disputes, in the name of religion...whether or not that is truly the case of the situations...but still...it is the humans who are mistaken, and causing the strife in the world, and not the religion itself.
The religion is something from God...and unmistakable source, a divine source of infinite wisdom and insight...quite different from the humans themselves who many times...more often than not...misinterpret the religions, or put them into the wrong practice at the wrong time, therefore presenting the religion in a light other than which it truly is.
To know Islam better, one should surely devote himself/herself to studying the source, and not necessary the people...and that means going to the Quran and Hadith for guidance, as well as and more importantly...seeking guidance from the ONLY ONE who can give that guidance...God.
Lulua.
vancouver
24-03-2002, 01:10
We could not get to know God properly without the Bible. The Bible is very extensive and shows God's dealings with people over thousands of years and was written over a long period of time. The Quran with only 6000 verses and 114 chapters written over 23 years could not contain enough about God and how he deals with people to give us adequate information. Islam need the Bible as well for without it they would be lost as regards knowing God is concerned. Many have tried to discredit the bible over many centuries but the bible always wins out. No one can disprove anything in it. Although written over such a long period of time with 40 writers there seems to be only one author.
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