Biblical Prophecies for the coming of Mohammed (SAAW)

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum.

I have found this article, and believe it to be a good beginning for this forum of comparative religion. I hope that the new moderator of this forum should like to continue in such manner, and also hope that some find it to be beneficial.

Om Mohammed


BIBLICAL PROPHECIES for the coming of prophet Muhammad (sas)

************************************************** **********

Note: The following is written in a language that is intended as an
`Invitation' (Daw'ah) to Christians, who have confused the
concept of "Spirit of Truth" (a Paraclete) with "Holy Spirit".

Moses and Isaiah PROPHESIED the coming of JESUS.
Did Jesus and Isaiah PROPHESY the coming of MUHAMMAD?
-------------------
To understand the prophecies made by Jesus on the subject, one
has to begin with the First Epistle of John, Chapter 2, Verse 1.
Here, Jesus Christ is called a "Paraclete" (Parakletos, Advocate,
Comforter, Helper) by apostle John. The same term "Paraclete" is
used by the apostle in his Gospel, in connection with a portentous
prophecy made by Jesus Christ, before the end of his ministry upon
this earth, for the coming of "another Paraclete". Prophet Moses
also made a similar prophecy, before the end of his ministry, for
the coming of his successor. Jesus Christ declared;

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another
Paraclete, that he may abide with you into the age (to come)."
John 14:16
Note: We often read the verse ending as; "with you for ever".
However; "into the age" is the literal translation of the Greek
phrase; `eis ton aiona', used by John.

These two verses by John clearly demonstrate that Jesus Christ, while
speaking of "another Paraclete", was speaking of the coming of "another male
figure" like himself, some time in the future, after his
departure. The passage quoted below also confirms that the original concept
among the noted Christian scholars and populace, for the "Paraclete" was for
the coming of a "male figure", but that concept
was later confused with the "Holy Spirit". Here is an extract
from the world renowned and distinguished Anchor Bible Volume 29A:

"The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the
Johnannine literature. In 1John ii1 Jesus is a parakletos (not a
title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father.
...Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as
the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch,
Sasse, Butlmann and Betz have doubted whether this identification
is true to the original picture and have suggested that the
Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused
with the Holy Spirit." (page 1135).

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ, besides being a "Messiah"
was also a prophet like Moses, by his own admission. Please
see John 5:46 and 9:17. Hence to say that the coming of "another
Paraclete" was similar to the coming of "another Prophet" like
Jesus and Moses, would not be inaccurate. OTOH, the concept of
"Holy Spirit" is unequivocally negated by the following verse:

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go
away; for if I do not go away, the Paraclete shall not come to
you; but if I go, I will send him to you." John 16:7

This verse clearly tells us that the coming of the Paraclete
was subject to the departure of Jesus. Whereas, the "Holy Spirit"
was already present. It was in existence since the day of the Creation
and was hovering upon the surface of the earth (Genesis 1:2). It was also
present with the prophets of the Old Testament. The "Holy Spirit" happened
to be present at River Jordan when Jesus Christ was being Baptised by John
the Baptist, in the early part of his ministry.
So, how could Jesus say; "but if I go, I will send Holy Spirit"?

"When the Paraclete comes, whom I will send to you from the
Father, that is the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the
Father, he will bear witness of me." John 15:26

This above verse clears the confusion. The Paraclete is called the
"Spirit of Truth" and not the "Holy Spirit". These are two separate terms
and two independent entities. The first takes the pronoun "he"
being a male figure, whereas, the second one takes the pronoun "it".

"But the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom the Father will send in
my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your
remembrance all that I said to you." John 14:26

Notes: 1. In the older MSS, Codex Syriacus discovered in 1812 on
Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of
John 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete,
the Holy Spirit". "The Spirit" is a reference to "the Spirit
of Truth" as in 15:26.
2. The word spirit, Greek. `pneu'ma', is of neutral gender and takes
pronoun "it". Whereas, in almost all the verses referring to Paraclete
quoted above and below, the pronoun used is "he".
3. In 1 John 4:6, the terms "the spirit of truth" and "the
spirit of error" are used for the human beings.
4. History records that prophet Muhammad was known for his
Truth and Honesty, long before he received the Revelations.

Jesus Christ did indicate what the Paraclete to come will do
in his time. Did prophet Muhammad do those things? Let's examine;

1. "But when he, the Spirit of Truth, comes, he will guide you
into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own
initiative, but whatever he hears, he will speak..." Jn.16:13

Note: The Quran is a compilation of the "Divine Revelations" that
were received by prophet Muhammad, over a period of 23 years,
through the arch angel Gabriel. The prophet used to recite whatever
he used to hear. Prophet's companions used to write down whatever
was recited. The Quran does not contain the writings or teachings
of or by Muhammad, as often mentioned by some misinformed authors.

2. "He shall glorify me." John 16:14

Note: The Quran glorifies the birth of Jesus through Virgin Mary.
The Quran also confirms, Jesus was a Messiah; a Messenger of God;
the Spirit from God; the Word of God and the Righteous Prophet.

3. "He shall take mine and shall disclose it to you." Jn.16:14

Note: Muhammad did declare himself a Messenger/Prophet of God
like Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

4. "He will teach you all things." John 14:26

Note: The Quran teaches a way of life. It guides mankind, how to
live a pious life socially, politically and spiritually.

5. "He will bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."
Jn.14:26

Note: The Quran speaks about the teaching of the righteous Jesus
and even quotes him.

6. "He will bear witness of me" John 15:26

Note: The Quran attests the miracles performed by Jesus the
Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing miracle performed by
Jesus that the Gospel writers have not recorded. The Quran
acknowledges that these miracles and signs were performed with the
leave of Allah, by His righteous Servant and Messiah Jesus. The same
is also attested in the Book of Acts 2:22; 3:13 (NASB).

Prophet Isaiah is considered to be one of the major prophets
of the Old Testament. In the Book of Isaiah there are several
prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. In chapter 42, Isaiah
begins with a prophecy for the coming of prophet Jesus. After verse
number nine, God declares through Isaiah, the "new things" that are
to "spring forth" in the Land of Kedar.

In the Bible there is only one personality called Kedar. He
was the grandson of prophet Abraham, through his son Ishmael (see
Gen.25:13). Kedar's descendants had settled in Paran (Syno-Arabian
dessert). In the Rabbinic literature Arabia is called the "Land of
Kedar". Prophet Muhammad was a descendant of Kedar.
God declares through Isaiah;

"Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new
things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of
them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the
end of the earth'. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof
lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit:
let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the
top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and
declare His praise in the inlands." Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.

God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad
- a direct descendant of Kedar, a "New Song" - The Qur'an (Koran).
This happens to be the only Scripture to be revealed in the
language of the Kedarites. The verses of the Qur'an are recited
like a poem. Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the
world, recite this "new song" and Glorify Allah, in their daily
prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to
prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca.
There are several mountains near Mecca. During the annual Islamic
Pilgrimage called "Hajj", Muslims from all over the world, assemble
in Mecca and shout Glory to the Lord from the top of Mount Arafat.
The pilgrims continuously give Glory to Allah on their ways, to and
from Mecca.

"The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up
jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall
prevail against his enemies." Verse 13.

In the Old Testament the God often speaks "I" will do this, or
"I" have done this; whereas, He has chosen human beings like us, to
do these jobs. (see 2 Samuel 12:7-12). Muhammad did go forth as a
mighty prophet of Allah, did stir up jealousy among the most
influential and dominating tribe of the pagan Arabs in Arabia.
Finally with a war cry and roar, Muhammad did prevail upon the
enemies of Lord - the idolaters, fulfilling the above prophecy.

"I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and
refrained myself, now will I cry like a travailing woman; I
will destroy and devour at once." Verse 14.

The prophets that came before Muhammad had all tried with
peaceful missions. But, the concept of sharing God's Glory
continued to surface again and again, in one way or other. It was
with the war cry, through the descendants of Kedar (Arabs), these
sinful practices were destroyed and devoured, inside and outside of
Arabia. The spread of Islam was swift, wide spread and at once.

"And I will bring the blind by a way they knew not; I will
lead them in paths that they have not known; I will make
darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These
things I will do unto them, and not forsake them." Verse 16.

It is an undeniable fact that before the advent of Islam, the
pagan Arabs were like the blinds. Their religious and social
concepts were crooked. The revelation of this "new song" brought
them out of that darkness. Earlier, God had not sent any prophet to
these people. By sending Muhammad, God fulfilled His above promise
and also the following promise to Abraham;

"And also of the son of the bondwoman I will make a nation,
because he is thy seed." Genesis 21:13.

Please note the word "also" in above promise. The nations of
Judaism and Christianity came out from the descendants of Abraham
and Sarah. The nation of Islam came out from the descendants of
Abraham and Hagar. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three
children of Abraham by God's Covenants with Abraham.

This also fulfils the following prophecy by Jesus;

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide
you into all truth; for he shall not speak of himself; but
what soever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will
show you thing to come." John 16:13

As explained earlier the "Paraclete" is also called the
"Spirit of Truth" in the New Testament.

"They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed,
that trust in graven images; they say to the molten images,
`Ye are our gods.'" Isaiah 42 Verse 17.

History records that Prophet Muhammad did put the pagan
idolaters to great shame when he demolished before them, their 365
idols that were installed in Ka'bah (Mecca), the most respected
place of pilgrimage in the whole of Arabia. Today, Ka'bah is the
Grand Mosque of Islam. Muslims from all over the world face towards
Ka'bah while reciting their daily ritual prayers.

Please send your comments directly to the author,
Akbarally Meherally <amedamne@trianon.worldtel.com>

The following are also the recommanded tools for doing the work
of `Dawah', published by the author.

`Understanding the Bible through Koranic Messsages'*
`Understanding Jesus, the factual perceptions'*
`Understanding Ismailism - a unique Tariqah of Islam'*
`A History of the Agakhani Ismailis'*

`A Brief History Of the Agakhans'x
`25 Answers to FAQ by Christians, from the BIBLE'x
`Biblical prophecies for prophet Muhammad (sas)'x
* These are books and available from:
A.M.TRUST, P.O.Box 81075, BURNABY B.C. V5H 4K2 Canada.

x These are articles. Copies can be obtained from the author.
The articles can be surfed on various Islamic WWW Home Pages:

http:/cville-srv.wam.umd.edu/~ibrahim/aga.html
http://web.syr.edu/~maalkadh/docs/agakhans_hist.txt
http://mothra.syr.edu:8080/~msa/docs/biblefaq.txt
http://www.ais.org/~maftab/akbar (for FAQ/BIBLE)
http://cswww2.essex.ac.uk/users/rafiam/profmuham.html
*********************************************
Dear WEBMASTERS; Have you linked your site with the above?
Would you like to receive a copy of any of the above
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[alhamdliyesu]

Do you know how unclear your logic is? Does it say any specific detail of Mohammad's life in the Bible? No. However it does prophecy specific details of Jesus' life in the Bible

[jcecil3]

I have to agree with Alhamdliyesu that the passages quoted must either refer to the Holy Spirit as Christians interpret the passages, OR they are so unclear that they can refer to any human being, and not Mohammed specifically.

If we interpret them to be a human being, a Roman Catholic could argue they refer to the Pope. (Roman Catholics don't say this, but the point is that they could if they used the texts the way you do). The point is that the logic that makes these passages refer to a human being is so weak and so vague as to be extremely inconclusive at best. They lack the clarity of the Old Testament prophecies unless they refer to the Holy Spirit.

Intepreting the passages as referring to the Holy Spirit makes more sense of the whole New Testament texts and is supported by Christian Tradition apart from the Bible.

[JaLaaL]

There is a lot of argument over the meaning of this word "Paraclete". For now we can leave that aside. What is a "Paraclete"? It does not matter. The first letter of John shows that Jesus was a "Paraclete". He is called a "Paraclete" and we have Jesus promising another "Paraclete" is going to be sent.
We lose a lot by this word "another" in English because it is ambiguous. If someone"s car breaks down, and it is a Toyota, and I say, "I'II go and get you another car," maybe I mean, "I'II go and get you another Toyota because this one you have is broken," or maybe I mean, "Forget Toyota, they're no good; I'II go and get you a Datsun." It is an ambiguous word.

But the Greeks had a word for it. When they meant "another" of the same kind, they said aloes. When they meant another of a different kind, they said heteroes. The important thing here is that, when Jesus, who was himself a Paraclete, said "God will send you another Paraclete" he used the word aloes, not heteroes.
Christians want to say that this other "Paraclete" that has been sent was different from Jesus. It was not a man, it was a spirit. What Jesus said was: "God will send you another one like me, another man." Muslims believe that Muhammad is the fulfilment of this prophecy by Jesus. The Qur'an says that this man is mentioned in the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians (see 7:157).

Christians came to expect the return of Jesus because of a Jewish misunderstanding. "Messiah" and "Son of Man" have been given special significance by the Jews, even though many people were called by this same name as in the Bible. The Jews came to expect a victorious leader. When Jesus did not turn out to be quite what many expected, they hatched the idea that he would return some day and fulfill all these prophecies.


FOR EVERYONE, YOU MUST READ THIS:
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Muhame.htm

[jcecil3]

I think you're missing the point I am making -- but correct me if I am wrong.

I do not disagree that "paraclete" CAN be another person. What I am stating is that what is said of this person in the gospel of John is so vague that there is nothing that ties it to Mohammed in particular. That's why I say it could be just as easily argued that the person refered to is the Pope. For that matter, it could be Nostradamus, or Jean Dixon, etc.....

That being said, there is SOME indication that it COULD refer to the Spirit within the context of the text. Furthermore, Christians belive that the Holy Spirit is a person within the God-head. This interpretation makes more sense in the context of the WHOLE New Testament, including writings other than John's gospel. However, if you insist on looking at the gospel of John by itself, I agree that the evidence that it is the Holy Spirit is JUST as vague as the evidence that it is Mohammed, the Pope, Nostradamus, Jean Dixon, or anyone else....

In other words, all I am saying is that IF you reject the interpretation that says this is the Holy Spirit, and insist that it is a human being, there is so little information given about this human being that you cannot conclusively prove it is Mohammed or anybody else. The prophecy lacks the specificity of Isaiah and the Old Testament.

Does this make more sense now?

[JBJ]

It's as simple as this:

Jesus said in John 16.7: "I will send him (paraclete) to you." So was Muhammad sent by Jesus? Did Jesus have authority over Muhammad's unborn soul?

If he did, we must say that Jesus was more than "just a messenger" for he is showing power over the unliving.

If he didn't, then we must say that this passage cannot refer to Muhammad and end our arguement.

JBJ

[kkawohl]

The moral of this story is: Having tunnel-vision or being closed-minded, without compassion for the belief of others around you can be suicide to the soul.

The Scenario:
The souls of a Rabbi, a Christian minister, and a Islamic cleric appeared at the gates of heaven at the same time and they eye each other suspiciously. St. Peter (the gatekeeper) askes if there is a problem.

The Rabbi tells St. Peter , "Ours is the only true religion. We have the word of God that this is so and it is written in the Tora that God said that we are the chosen children of God, not the Christians or the Muslims. The Christians and the Muslims should not be in heaven".

The Christian minister says, "Jesus told us that he is God and that the only way to God is by following his teachings and that unless one is born again, one would not get into heaven. What Jesus said is the word of God and it is written in the holy Bible".

The Muslim cleric says, "God has told Muhammad that he was the last true prophet and that everything that God told him was written in the Koran and that those who did not follow what was written there, would not get into heaven.

Other souls appeared and some sided with and gathered around each of their leaders, while some other souls who sided with no one entered directly through the gates of heaven.

St. Peter told the souls who had gathered around the souls of threir clerics, "In heaven there can be no disagreement and until you all are in agreement, you have to move to the Purgatory area".

No agreement was reached and eventually the souls died (Hell) because souls who were not with God could not exist.

[jcecil3]

Kurt,

Cute story -- But the notion of Peter standing at the pearly gates is from Matthew 16:19 -- a verse Catholics maintain refers to Peter as the first Pope and guardian of the "keyes tot he kingdom". Also, "purgatory" is a particularly Catholic notion. In other words, the joke makes sense mostly only to Catholics, though I have no idea what your original background is.

Tell me, the people who walked by, how did they answer the question "Who is Jesus?" or "Who is Mohammed?" or "Who is the Bhuddha?"

Did they just shrug and say "I dunno and I don't care..."

So ignorance and apathy, stupidity and a lack of courage in your convictions is the way to heaven? Maybe the ability to parce and nuance words like Bill Clinton will get you into heaven, ey?

I am a Catholic. Yet, I do believe that Islamics, Jews, Bhuddists, and maybe even a few atheists and pantheists will make it to heaven.

However, on issues that we disagree on here on earth, there are only a limited number of options:

1) I am wrong, and others are right.
2) Others are wrong, and I am right.
3) We are both wrong.
4) We are both right, but expressing the truth differently.
5) We are both right, but talking about completely different things.
6) We are both part wrong, and part right.

As a believer in a particular religion, of course I believe that the views of that religion are more right than wrong. I expect Muslims to feel the same way, and we should be able to engage each other (even argue a point vigorously). Indeed, if we all agreed all the time, the world would be a boring place, and we would never learn.

I agree with the general IDEA that we need to find ways to peacefully disagree, and even enjoy the challenge of a good debate. Yet, I find the very notion that we all need to agree absolutely in order to get to heaven absurd, impossible, and simply a cop out if it is used to avoid discussion of our differences.....

Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3

[Tita]

Well, THIS should be very interesting . . .



-------------------
> To understand
>the prophecies made by Jesus
>on the subject, one
>has to begin with the First
>Epistle of John, Chapter 2,
>Verse 1.
>Here, Jesus Christ is called a
>"Paraclete" (Parakletos, Advocate,
>Comforter, Helper) by apostle John. The
>same term "Paraclete" is
>used by the apostle in his
>Gospel, in connection with a
>portentous
>prophecy made by Jesus Christ, before
>the end of his ministry
>upon
>this earth, for the coming of
>"another Paraclete". Prophet Moses
>also made a similar prophecy, before
>the end of his ministry,
>for
>the coming of his successor.

Does anyone know what passage this is referring to?

Jesus
>Christ declared;
>
> "And
>I will pray the Father,
>and He will give you
>another
> Paraclete,
>that he may abide with
>you into the age (to
>come)."
>
>
>
>
John
>14:16
>Note: We often read the verse
>ending as; "with you for
>ever".
>However; "into the age" is the
>literal translation of the Greek
>
>phrase; `eis ton aiona', used by
>John.

Let's accept for the moment that "into the age" is a more correct translation. Which age is being referred to? It's not very specific.

But considering that Jesus is addressing the apostles in particular, and He says that the Paracletos will be "with you", we must decide who "you" is. You in this context must mean both the apostles in particular and the believers in general. Thus, the Paracletos must be something that would come before the end of the lifetime of the disciples. Certainly not Mohammed.
>
> These
>two verses by John clearly
>demonstrate that Jesus Christ, while
>
>speaking of "another Paraclete", was speaking
>of the coming of "another
>male
>figure" like himself, some time in
>the future, after his
>departure. The passage quoted below also
>confirms that the original concept
>
>among the noted Christian scholars and
>populace, for the "Paraclete" was
>for
>the coming of a "male figure",
>but that concept
>was later confused with the "Holy
>Spirit". Here is an extract
>
>from the world renowned and distinguished
>Anchor Bible Volume 29A:

I have never heard of this world renowned and distinguished volume.
>
>
> "The word parakletos
>is peculiar in the NT
>to the
>Johnannine literature. In 1John ii1 Jesus
>is a parakletos (not a
>
>title), serving as a heavenly intercessor
>with the Father.
>...Christian tradition has identified this figure
>(Paraclete) as
>the Holy Spirit, but scholars like
>Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch,
>Sasse, Butlmann and Betz have doubted
>whether this identification
>is true to the original picture
>and have suggested that the
>
>Paraclete was once an independent salvific
>figure, later confused
>with the Holy Spirit." (page
>1135).

Are these the same German enlightenment scholars of the 19th century who also denied the miracles, the inspiration of the Bible, and a million other critical doctrines? I would hate to think that Muslims are relying on scholars who would deny not just the parts of Christian doctrine with which they would disagree, but also all with which they would agree.
>
> The
>Bible tells us that Jesus
>Christ, besides being a "Messiah"
>
>was also a prophet like Moses,
>by his own admission. Please
>
>see John 5:46 and 9:17.

Look up these references. In John 5:46, Jesus simply states that Moses wrote about Him. In John 9:17, a man whom Jesus healed refers to Jesus as a prophet--it is not Jesus speaking.

Hence
>to say that the coming
>of "another
>Paraclete" was similar to the coming
>of "another Prophet" like
>Jesus and Moses, would not be
>inaccurate. OTOH, the concept of
>
>"Holy Spirit" is unequivocally negated by
>the following verse:
>
> "But
>I tell you the truth,
>it is to your advantage
>that I go
> away;
>for if I do not
>go away, the Paraclete shall
>not come to
> you;
>but if I go, I
>will send him to you."
>
> John 16:7
>
>
> This verse clearly
>tells us that the coming
>of the Paraclete
>was subject to the departure of
>Jesus. Whereas, the "Holy Spirit"
>
>was already present. It was in
>existence since the day of
>the Creation
>and was hovering upon the surface
>of the earth (Genesis 1:2).
>It was also
>present with the prophets of the
>Old Testament. The "Holy Spirit"
>happened
>to be present at River Jordan
>when Jesus Christ was being
>Baptised by John
>the Baptist, in the early part
>of his ministry.
>So, how could Jesus say; "but
>if I go, I will
>send Holy Spirit"?

At the time of Jesus' baptism, the Holy Spirit descended from heaven in the form of a dove. Surely this does not mean that the Holy Spirit is a bird??? Of course not. In this passage, as in many others before Acts 2, the Holy Spirit is seen as a presence that comes and goes, not something that abides with believers permanently. The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not take place until Acts 2. (BTW, if that's not the Holy Spirit descending in Acts 2, what exactly is it?)
>
> "When
>the Paraclete comes, whom I
>will send to you from
>the
> Father,
>that is the Spirit of
>Truth, who proceeds from the
>
> Father,
>he will bear witness of
>me."
> John
>15:26
>
>
> This above verse
>clears the confusion. The Paraclete
>is called the
>"Spirit of Truth" and not the
>"Holy Spirit". These are two
>separate terms
>and two independent entities. The first
>takes the pronoun "he"
>being a male figure, whereas, the
>second one takes the pronoun
>"it".
>
> "But
>the Paraclete, the Spirit, whom
>the Father will send in
>
> my
>name, he will teach you
>all things, and bring to
>your
> remembrance
>all that I said to
>you."
> John
>14:26
>
>Notes: 1. In the older MSS,
>Codex Syriacus discovered in 1812
>on
>Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis
>(and Mrs. Bensley), the text
>of
>John 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit";
>and not "Paraclete,
>the Holy Spirit". "The Spirit" is
>a reference to "the Spirit
>
>of Truth" as in 15:26.
>
>2. The word spirit, Greek.
>`pneu'ma', is of neutral gender
>and takes
>pronoun "it". Whereas, in almost all
>the verses referring to Paraclete
>
>quoted above and below, the pronoun
>used is "he".
>
>3. In 1 John 4:6,
>the terms "the spirit of
>truth" and "the
>spirit of error" are used for
>the human beings.

That's one possible interpretation. Read this passage for yourself and see what you think the "spirit of error" and "spirit of truth" are referring to.
>
>4. History records that prophet
>Muhammad was known for his
>
>Truth and Honesty, long before he
>received the Revelations.
>
> Jesus
>Christ did indicate what the
>Paraclete to come will do
>
>in his time. Did prophet Muhammad
>do those things? Let's examine;
>
>
>1. "But when he,
>the Spirit of Truth, comes,
>he will guide you
> into
>all the truth; for he
>will not speak on his
>own
> initiative,
>but whatever he hears, he
>will speak..." Jn.16:13
>
>Note: The Quran is a compilation
>of the "Divine Revelations" that
>
>were received by prophet Muhammad, over
>a period of 23 years,
>
>through the arch angel Gabriel. The
>prophet used to recite whatever
>
>he used to hear. Prophet's companions
>used to write down whatever
>
>was recited. The Quran does not
>contain the writings or teachings
>
>of or by Muhammad, as often
>mentioned by some misinformed authors.

This must be taken as an article of faith, not as an undeniable fact. I could "recite" something I said that I heard, but would that make it true? If you want to believe it, that's fine, but me saying that it's not my words being recited doesn't make it the truth. You either have to believe me or choose not to believe me--there's no way you can know for sure. Otherwise you have a neatly constructed little circular argument: "1.Tita always tells the truth. 2.Tita says she is reciting something she hears. 3. We know this is true because Tita always tells the truth."
>
>
>2. "He shall glorify
>me." John 16:14
>
>Note: The Quran glorifies the birth
>of Jesus through Virgin Mary.
>
>The Quran also confirms, Jesus was
>a Messiah; a Messenger of
>God;
>the Spirit from God; the Word
>of God and the Righteous
>Prophet.
>
>3. "He shall take
>mine and shall disclose it
>to you." Jn.16:14
>
>Note: Muhammad did declare himself a
>Messenger/Prophet of God
>like Abraham, Moses and Jesus.
>
>4. "He will teach you all
>things." John 14:26
>
>Note: The Quran teaches a way
>of life. It guides mankind,
>how to
>live a pious life socially, politically
>and spiritually.
>
>5. "He will bring to your
>remembrance all that I said
>to you."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jn.14:26
>
>
>Note: The Quran speaks about the
>teaching of the righteous Jesus
>
>and even quotes him.
>
>6. "He will bear witness of
>me" John 15:26
>
>Note: The Quran attests the miracles
>performed by Jesus the
>Messiah. It also mentions one astonishing
>miracle performed by
>Jesus that the Gospel writers have
>not recorded. The Quran
>acknowledges that these miracles and signs
>were performed with the
>leave of Allah, by His righteous
>Servant and Messiah Jesus. The
>same
>is also attested in the Book
>of Acts 2:22; 3:13 (NASB).
>
>
> Prophet
>Isaiah is considered to be
>one of the major prophets
>
>of the Old Testament. In the
>Book of Isaiah there are
>several
>prophecies about the coming of the
>Messiah. In chapter 42, Isaiah
>
>begins with a prophecy for the
>coming of prophet Jesus. After
>verse
>number nine, God declares through Isaiah,
>the "new things" that are
>
>to "spring forth" in the Land
>of Kedar.
>
> In
>the Bible there is only
>one personality called Kedar. He
>
>was the grandson of prophet Abraham,
>through his son Ishmael (see
>
>Gen.25:13). Kedar's descendants had settled in
>Paran (Syno-Arabian
>dessert). In the Rabbinic literature Arabia
>is called the "Land of
>
>Kedar". Prophet Muhammad was a descendant
>of Kedar.
>God declares through Isaiah;
>
> "Behold,
>the former things are come
>to pass, and the new
>
> things
>do I declare: before they
>spring forth I tell you
>of
> them.
>`Sing unto the Lord a
>new song, and his praise
>from the
> end
>of the earth'. Let the
>wilderness and the cities thereof
>
> lift
>up their voices, the villages
>that Kedar doth inhabit:
> let
>the inhabitants of the rock
>sing, let them shout from
>the
> top
>of the mountains. Let them
>give glory unto the Lord,
>and
> declare
>His praise in the inlands."
>Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.
>
> God
>did reveal in the Land
>of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad
>
>- a direct descendant of Kedar,
>a "New Song" - The
>Qur'an (Koran).
>This happens to be the only
>Scripture to be revealed in
>the
>language of the Kedarites. The verses
>of the Qur'an are recited
>
>like a poem. Nearly 1.2 billion
>Muslims, residing all over the
>
>world, recite this "new song" and
>Glorify Allah, in their daily
>
>prayers, five times in a day.
>The initial Revelation came to
>
>prophet Muhammad in a cave of
>Mount Hira near the city
>of Mecca.
>There are several mountains near Mecca.
>During the annual Islamic
>Pilgrimage called "Hajj", Muslims from all
>over the world, assemble
>in Mecca and shout Glory to
>the Lord from the top
>of Mount Arafat.
>The pilgrims continuously give Glory to
>Allah on their ways, to
>and
>from Mecca.
>
> "The
>Lord shall go forth as
>a mighty man, he shall
>stir up
> jealousy
>like a man of war:
>he shall cry, yea, roar;
>he shall
> prevail
>against his enemies."
> Verse 13.
>
>
> In
>the Old Testament the God
>often speaks "I" will do
>this, or
>"I" have done this; whereas, He
>has chosen human beings like
>us, to
>do these jobs. (see 2 Samuel
>12:7-12). Muhammad did go forth
>as a
>mighty prophet of Allah, did stir
>up jealousy among the most
>
>influential and dominating tribe of the
>pagan Arabs in Arabia.
>Finally with a war cry and
>roar, Muhammad did prevail upon
>the
>enemies of Lord - the idolaters,
>fulfilling the above prophecy.
>
> "I
>have long time holden my
>peace; I have been still,
>and
> refrained
>myself, now will I cry
>like a travailing woman; I
>
> will
>destroy and devour at once."
> Verse 14.
>
> The
>prophets that came before Muhammad
>had all tried with
>peaceful missions. But, the concept of
>sharing God's Glory
>continued to surface again and again,
>in one way or other.
>It was
>with the war cry, through the
>descendants of Kedar (Arabs), these
>
>sinful practices were destroyed and devoured,
>inside and outside of
>Arabia. The spread of Islam was
>swift, wide spread and at
>once.
>
> "And
>I will bring the blind
>by a way they knew
>not; I will
> lead
>them in paths that they
>have not known; I will
>make
> darkness
>light before them, and crooked
>things straight. These
> things
>I will do unto them,
>and not forsake them." Verse
>16.
>
> It
>is an undeniable fact that
>before the advent of Islam,
>the
>pagan Arabs were like the blinds.
>Their religious and social
>concepts were crooked. The revelation of
>this "new song" brought
>them out of that darkness. Earlier,
>God had not sent any
>prophet to
>these people. By sending Muhammad, God
>fulfilled His above promise
>and also the following promise to
>Abraham;
>
> "And
>also of the son of
>the bondwoman I will make
>a nation,
> because
>he is thy seed."
> Genesis
>21:13.
>
>Please note the word "also" in
>above promise. The nations of
>
>Judaism and Christianity came out from
>the descendants of Abraham
>and Sarah. The nation of Islam
>came out from the descendants
>of
>Abraham and Hagar. Judaism, Christianity and
>Islam are three
>children of Abraham by God's Covenants
>with Abraham.
>
>This also fulfils the following prophecy
>by Jesus;
>
> "Howbeit
>when he, the Spirit of
>Truth, is come, he will
>guide
> you
>into all truth; for he
>shall not speak of himself;
>but
> what
>soever he shall hear, that
>shall he speak: and he
>will
> show
>you thing to come."
>
> John
>16:13
>
>As explained earlier the "Paraclete" is
>also called the
>"Spirit of Truth" in the New
>Testament.
>
> "They
>shall be turned back, they
>shall be greatly ashamed,
> that
>trust in graven images; they
>say to the molten images,
>
> `Ye
>are our gods.'"
>Isaiah 42 Verse 17.
>
> History
>records that Prophet Muhammad did
>put the pagan
>idolaters to great shame when he
>demolished before them, their 365
>
>idols that were installed in Ka'bah
>(Mecca), the most respected
>place of pilgrimage in the whole
>of Arabia. Today, Ka'bah
>is the
>Grand Mosque of Islam. Muslims from
>all over the world face
>towards
>Ka'bah while reciting their daily ritual
>prayers.
>
>Please send your comments directly to
>the author,
>Akbarally Meherally <amedamne@trianon.worldtel.com>
>
>The following are also the recommanded
>tools for doing the work
>
>of `Dawah', published by the author.
>
>
>
> `Understanding the Bible
>through Koranic Messsages'*
>
> `Understanding Jesus, the
>factual perceptions'*
>
> `Understanding Ismailism -
>a unique Tariqah of Islam'*
>
>
> `A History of
>the Agakhani Ismailis'*
>
>
> `A Brief History
>Of the Agakhans'x
>
> `25 Answers to
>FAQ by Christians, from the
>BIBLE'x
>
> `Biblical prophecies for
>prophet Muhammad (sas)'x
>* These are books and available
>from:
>
> A.M.TRUST, P.O.Box 81075,
>BURNABY B.C. V5H 4K2 Canada.
>
>
>x These are articles. Copies can
>be obtained from the author.
>
>The articles can be surfed on
>various Islamic WWW Home Pages:
>
>
>http:/cville-srv.wam.umd.edu/~ibrahim/aga.html
>http://web.syr.edu/~maalkadh/docs/agakhans_hist.txt
>http://mothra.syr.edu:8080/~msa/docs/biblefaq.txt
>http://www.ais.org/~maftab/akbar (for FAQ/BIBLE)
>http://cswww2.essex.ac.uk/users/rafiam/profmuham.html
>*********************************************
>Dear WEBMASTERS; Have you linked your
>site with the above?
>
> Would you like
>to receive a copy of
>any of the above
>
> articles from me
>directly, for your WWW page?
>
>
> Please write. I
>will be happy to e-mail.
>*Akbar*

[Tita]

When Jesus said He would send another, you have to wonder first of all what--or Who--Jesus was. If you believe that He was a man like us, then the Paracletos could arguably be another man like Him, nothing more. But if you believe that He was God in human form, you must believe that the One to follow Him would also have to be divine, not human. So arguing about what "another" means is really missing the point--first you have to figure out Who He is.

[Rasha]

Assalamu alikom and peace to all

= )

Just thought will post few thought provoking things to those who are really searching for the truth:

is Jesus God??

Is Jesus all knowing??
Not really. The very proof is taken from the Bible itself. When speaking of the day of judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus, therefore, could not be God.

Is Jesus all-powerful??
Well, while Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgement is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me" St. John 5:30. But God is not only all powerful, he is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

Does Jesus have a God??
In the Bible, Jesus acknowleged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said,"I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonesense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? The praying and worshipping of Jesus to someone else, shows that Jesus is not God.

Was Jesus seen??
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, "No man hath seen God at any time." St. John 1:18. "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John 4:24.

Is there anyone greater than Jesus??
The greatest indication that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." Furthermore, in Matt 19:17 Jesus said "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." In these verses Jesus makes it clear his distinctions between himself and God. He gives clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather that his equality with god.

Beside all the above, in John 12:49 "For I speak not from myself but the father that sent me, he hath given me the commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak" If Jesus and God are one and the same, then this doesn't make sense...he shall speak not from himself!!

Jesus himself said that people will worship him although he is not God in Matthew 15:9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

So we can see that Jesus is not God, and that he said so himself. Which leaves us with one choice, the Islamic point of view, Allah is the only ONE GOD.

[Rasha]

= )

salam..its me again:

What does the Bible say about Muhammad?
I'm sure that every Christian would say without hesitation "Nothing". But the real question here is "Why Nothing??"

According to Christians, the Bible tells about many things that are to come in the future, but why does it have nothing about that man who was responsible for the bringing into being a world-wide community of millions of Believers who, on his authority, believe in Jesus as a very special Prophet of God.

Surely the Bible would have something to say about that great leader of men who spoke so well fo Jesus and his mother Mary.

Let's see if there is!

According to Christians, there are hundreds of prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament, but can anyone find only one prophecy where Jesus is mentioned by name??? And I'll bet you anything that there is NONE!!! Note: Christ is a title and not a name! No?? You can't find any?? Ok, find one where it says that his mother is Mary, his supposed father will be Joseph the Carpenter, that he is born in the reign of Herod the King, etc. Still nothing??? Then how do Christians know that those prophecies refer to Jesus and not someone else????

Christians base their believe on Prophecies in which they put two and two together. Let's see if the same implies to Prophet Muhammad.

Open Deuteronomy 18:18, doesn't it say "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."?
Christians would say this is refering to Jesus, but why Jesus? His name is not mentioned here? If we look closely, these verses are looking for someone who is like Moses. Is Jesus like Moses?? Ok they are both Jew, and both are Prophets but if this was the only criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy then many would fit: Solomon, Isaiah, Daniel, Joel, John the Baptist and many others. Why Jesus???

However, we can easily proof that Jesus is NOT like Moses. According to Christians, Jesus died for the sins of the world, but Moses did not. Jesus went to hell for three days, but Moses did not. Jesus is the son of God they say but Moses is not. Jesus had miraculous birth but Moses didn't. Jesus was violently killed on the cross, but Moses died naturally.

However, Muhammad was like Moses in all these. He had normal birth, normal death. Both Moses and Muhammad got married and they both brought new laws, Jesus didn't. In Matthew 5:17-18 "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets, I am not come to destroy but to fulfil..." They both had father and mother, Jesus had a "supposed" father as Christians say!

Therefore, Muhammad is a good candidate for this prophecy while Jesus is not!

Deuteronomy 18:18"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."?
But...what does putting words in the mouth me?? Is it like asking you to read?? I don't thinks so. However, if I asked you to repeat after me in some language that you don't understand, that would be putting words into your mouth.

History tells us that Muhammed was fory years of age, when Archangel Gabriel commands him: READ! or RECITE! Muhammed was terrified and he said "I AM NOT LEARNED". The angel commands him one more time and then continued:

"Read! In the name of thy lord and cherisher, who created --
He created man from a mere clot of congealed blood.
Read! And thy lord is most bountiful,
He who taught the use of the pen,
Taught man that which he knew not."
Now isn't that putting words into Muhammad's mouth?? Then Muhammed could be that prophet after all. He was like Moses in more ways that Jesus was, and words were put into his mouth!But just one proof from the Bible that Muhammed is the prophet we are waiting is not enough. We need more proof, and indeed the proof was there!

Look in the Bible in Isaiah 29:12 "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying read this, I pray thee and he saith I am not learned"

"THAT IS NOT LEARNED!!!" History revealed that Prophet Muhammed was not learned. He was Ummi, i.e. not learned in Arabic.

"AND HE SAITH I AM NOT LEARNED" The exact words that were uttered twice by Prophet Muhammed upon his encounter with the Archangel Gabriel.

Please Note that there were no Arabic Bibles in existence in the 6th Century of the Christian Era when Muhammed lived and preached!

In Deuteronomy 18:18, "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak IN MY NAME, I will require it of him" and in the Catholic Bible the ending words are "I will be he revenger"

Does this apply to Muhammed??? I guess it does. Every Chapter of the Holy Quran (the Muslims' Book) starts with the same formula "In the name of Allah, most Gracious, most Merciful"

Muslims begin every lawful act with the Holy formula, but Christians begin with "In the name of the Father, son and holy ghost"

Then Christians are not satisfying what the Bible -- their Holy Book -- is saying!

In Matthew 17:11-13 the jews asked John the Baptist three distinct questions:
1. Art thou the Christ?
2. Art thou Elias?
3. Art thou that prophet?
The same question is repeated in John 1:25 as well.

The Jews were looking for three distince people, the Christ (Jesus), Elias who is John the Baptist, but WHO IS THAT PROPHET???

It is clear the the Jews were looking for three distince persons: Jesus, John the Baptist and the Prophet like Moses!!

In the Bible John 16:7, Jesus tells about a comforter that will be sent to the people.
"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you but if I depart I will send him unto you"

Who is that comforter?? Many would claim it's the Holy Spirit? But is it??

In John 14:16: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for ever."

Let us take a second here to examine in the light of the Bible if this Comforter fits the character of Prophet Muhammad.
1. "another comforter" so many has come and another one was to come
2. "that he may abide with you forever" as there is no need for another one after him
3. "he will reprove the world of sin" (John 16:8). History tells us that Prophet Muhammed had erased the idolism, and ignorance from Arabia.
4. "the spirit of truth" since childhood Prophet Muhammad was called Al-ameen i.e. the Truthful, the honest!

In John 16:13 "He will guide you into all truth", has the Holy Ghost given anybody any new things in the past 2000 years??
Go ask the Holy Ghost to give us the solution for Alcohol, gambling, racism etc...!

We could add to this the Prophet like Moses arguement, and conclude that ideed the Comforter could be prophet Muhammed [PBUH].

[jcecil3]

Greetings Rasha!

There are many similarities between Moses and Jesus....

The life of Moses and of Jesus were threatened by jealous political leaders as they were babes.

Moses and Jesus came out from Egypt into what we now call Isreal-Palestine.

Moses and Jesus spent 40 days in fasting in prayer before public ministry.

Moses and Jesus presented their greatest teachings from the mount. Though Jesus said he came to fulfill/complete the Old Testament, he also said that he begins a new covenant between God and the People of God.

Moses delivered the Isrealites from political slavery. Jesus delivers all people from slavery to Satan and sin.

Moses delivered the Isrealites through the waters of the red sea. Jesus delivers his people through the waters of baptism.

Moses instituted the passover feast with the blessing of unleavened bread and wine. Jesus instituted the Eucharist with the consecration of unleavened bread and wine.

Both Moses and Jesus used the laying on of hands and annointing with oil for setting aside ministers of the Word.

Moses instituted the sacrificial system of offering the blood of lambs. Jesus offers himself as the lamb of God and the perfect blood sacrifice for all time.

Moses commanded the people to carry the ark with the tabernacle of the law and the shewbread as the sign of God's presence among the people. Christians keep the Bible and the tabernacle of the consecrated bread (the body of Christ) as the sign of God's presence.

The list of parrallels can go on and on. These are just a few examples.

Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3

[Tita]

>= )
>

>According to Christians, there are hundreds of prophecies
>regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament, but can
>anyone find only one prophecy where Jesus is mentioned by
>name??? And I'll bet you anything that there is NONE!!!
>Note: Christ is a title and not a name! No?? You can't find
>any?? Ok, find one where it says that his mother is Mary,
>his supposed father will be Joseph the Carpenter, that he is
>born in the reign of Herod the King, etc. Still nothing???
>Then how do Christians know that those prophecies refer to
>Jesus and not someone else????

Actually, the time period was specifically mentioned in Daniel, which would definitely place His birth as being under the reign of Herod. And there are dozens of other prophecies which you are not listing here, such as where he would be born and that he would be born to a virgin. We could go into all kinds of fulfilled prophecies about Jesus' birth,life, death and resurrection, but that's not the subject of this thread. Let me know if you're interested, as I am not trying to preach.
>
>Christians base their believe on Prophecies in which they
>put two and two together. Let's see if the same implies to
>Prophet Muhammad.
>
>Open Deuteronomy 18:18, doesn't it say "I will raise them up
>a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I
>will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them
>all that I shall command him."?
>Christians would say this is refering to Jesus, but why
>Jesus?

You are incorrect. This verse is not referring to Jesus--it's not referring to any specific prophet at all!! Read the next few verses in this passage. It's giving a test for how to tell if a "prophet" actually is speaking for God, and it tells what to do if a prophet's prophecies don't come true--kill him. V. 20: "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die." There's more, but I don't feel like copying it all down. You can look it up for yourself.

As JCG points out, you are ignoring the many ways in which they are alike. However, as stated above, it is a moot point.
>

>Look in the Bible in Isaiah 29:12 "And the book is delivered
>to him that is not learned, saying read this, I pray thee
>and he saith I am not learned"

Isaiah 29:11 "And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot: for it is sealed." Put this verse together with v. 12 and you will see that it is not referring to Mohammed, unless Mohammed complained about the words he received being sealed.

>Muslims begin every lawful act with the Holy formula, but
>Christians begin with "In the name of the Father, son and
>holy ghost"

What do we begin with that? The only time we use it at my church is during a baptism.
>
>Then Christians are not satisfying what the Bible -- their
>Holy Book -- is saying!

That's news to me.
>
>In Matthew 17:11-13 the jews asked John the Baptist three
>distinct questions:
>1. Art thou the Christ?
>2. Art thou Elias?
>3. Art thou that prophet?
>The same question is repeated in John 1:25 as well.

Are you reading the same Bible I am? These three questions do not appear in Mt. 17:11-13. Better go back and read them again.
>
>The Jews were looking for three distince people, the Christ
>(Jesus), Elias who is John the Baptist, but WHO IS THAT
>PROPHET???

Look at Matthew 17:1-4. I think they were looking for Moses himself to reappear.

>In the Bible John 16:7, Jesus tells about a comforter that
>will be sent to the people.
>"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you
>that I go away for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
>come unto you but if I depart I will send him unto you"
>
>Who is that comforter?? Many would claim it's the Holy
>Spirit? But is it??
>
>In John 14:16: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall
>give you another comforter, that he may abide with you for
>ever."
>
>Let us take a second here to examine in the light of the
>Bible if this Comforter fits the character of Prophet
>Muhammad.
>1. "another comforter" so many has come and another one was
>to come
>2. "that he may abide with you forever" as there is no need
>for another one after him

No, I think abide with you forever would mean that he would . . . be with you forever. Mohammed is not here now, so it can't be him. This is pretty simple, really.

>3. "he will reprove the world of sin" (John 16:8). History
>tells us that Prophet Muhammed had erased the idolism, and
>ignorance from Arabia.
>4. "the spirit of truth" since childhood Prophet Muhammad
>was called Al-ameen i.e. the Truthful, the honest!
>
>In John 16:13 "He will guide you into all truth", has the
>Holy Ghost given anybody any new things in the past 2000
>years??
>Go ask the Holy Ghost to give us the solution for Alcohol,
>gambling, racism etc...!

Those solutions are in the Bible, inspired by the Holy Ghost, whether they are specifically named or not. And Mohammed never addressed things like drug use, illegitimate pregnancies, or the Middle East conflict.

[Rasha]

:)

ok ok... first of all... Prophet Mohammad addressed EVERYTHING including rules that forbade drugs, alcohol, and rules that deal with every possible conflict that could arrise! Just cause you don't know they exist doesn't mean they don't. I can find u a ruling on illegal pregnancies if you want. I can find you a ruling on drugs, illegal sleeping around...etc. You name it!

Secondly, let me get the bible and see if these "three" questions are there again.

hmmm...since i'm reading now.. this verse is interesting:

10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[Alhamdulillah islam is a faith for the whole world...it says in the quraan that its a religion for all man kind!]

10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. [question... saved? I thought Jesus was killed on the cross... how is he saved?]

10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. [what son of man is coming?]

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [wow!! This really struck me... and they say islam is "violent"]

ok here is this back to topic:

11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

hmm....ok let me get my other bible :) see if i copied it right.
:) no wonder u didn't find it. I copied it wrong that's why.

Here you go:
Matthew
17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
[they are searching for truth]
then look at:

John 1:21
1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

I just wonder why John didn't say he is Elias??!!

Lets see what else you asked me to clarify....

ok I read the verse you mentioned (Matthew 17:1-4) and I do nto see them searching for Moses!!! It says they met Moses.... I do'nt think anyone is looking for Moses

Mohammad is not here... his teachings is here, and every single thing he did is here... this will stay with us. Can you honestly tell me how jesus ate, how he drank, how he used the washroom, what he taught you guys to do when u marry, when u sleep, when you walk, when you laugh??!!

Isaiah 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

all these quotations are taken from: http://www.genesis.net.au/~bible/kjv/isaiah/

in 29:11 it says "man delivers" The Quraan was not delivered to Mohammad by man!!! So since its ur religion, ur bible... can u tell me who is delivering the book to who?!

> What do we begin with that? The only time we use it at my church is during a baptism.

Well....I guess u dont' start with the name of the lord at all then. :) and besides.... i didn't talk only about ur church...i'm talking about christianity in general... go to other churches... i got some missionaries come to my house who even used it before they start preaching!!

That's it for now... time for me to go to school. see you later

salam
Rasha

[jcecil3]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-03-02 AT 11:51&nbsp;PM (GMT)]Greetings Rasha!

You ask some good questions in this last post that perplexed me at one time, even though I am a Christian.

Regarding why Jesus calls John the Baptist Elias (or Elijah), while John himself seems unaware of this designation: the prophecy is taken by Jesus to say that one will come in the spirit of Elijah. John and Elijah both felt compelled to prophetic mission by the one Holy Spirit. John had no conscious awareness of being literally another Elijah, so he answers those who ask that he is not Elijah. However, Jesus, who is God in the flesh, knows that both John and Elijah are similar personalities driven by one Holy Spirit.

In other words, Christ knows John better than John knows himself -- which is true of all of us.

Regarding the issue of rules for the washroom, examples how to laugh etc..., Christians believe that where the Spirit is, there is freedom. Christ did not leave us legalistic commands to rule every aspect of our life. Rather, he freed us from obsession with legalism by his atonement on the cross, and gave us an example of how to be a loving person.

Christ was good at summing up the whole law in simple sayings and stories. Rather than more rules and laws, he gave us principles that we can translate into every time, culture, and circumstance.

Thus, he says that whole law can be summed up in the two great commandments: love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neigbor as you love yourself. These are quoted from Deuteronomy and Numbers, but many first century Jews failed to see them as the highest principles that undergird all of the other laws of Moses.

The golden rule to treat others as you want to be treated sums up all important moral actions. The parables give us insight into how to love and forgive. Thus, Jesus teaches by example, and by simple precepts and principles that are easy to remember.

In other words, Jesus did not feel the need to leave precepts about how to wash your hands, or what to eat and what not to eat, or prayer postures, and so forth. For Jesus, a personal friendship and relationship with God through him is the way to salvation, and the moral demands of his gospel are to treat other human beings as sisters and brothers in the Lord. We can trust his Holy Spirt to guide us in the gray areas of life.

Regarding the "hard sayings" such as "I came not for peace, but to bring the sword", these verses need to be read in context, and they are important.

Jesus is telling us that his message will cause division, sometimes even within a family. He never tells his followers to actually use the sword, or even pick one up!

Rather, Jesus is warning us that divisions will be inevitable if our lives are transformed by him. I've experienced this in my life. Recently, I was beat up by a gang of a different ethnic background while doing ministry in a rough part of town. The assailants mocked me as I prayed for mercy on them and tried to share the gospel of Christ with them. I believe God's protection got me out alive and relatively uninjured.

It is not that Jesus wants us to harm anyone, nor that God wishes to harm us. Rather, Jesus is advising that if we are right with God, the forces of evil will seek to harm us.

I sense this when I have taken stands here in America to show Muslim Arabs respect immediately after Sept 11. I sense the sword when I speak out against abortion, divorce, and the contraceptive mentality. I sense a little of the sword of division if I refuse to drink to drunkeness with a business client, or take an ethical stand in the board-room. I sense the sword of division when people see me walking hand-in-hand with my wife, who is of a different race than I am. I sense the division of the sword when I confront my own church leadership over the issue of women's ordination (I am for it, my church is against it).

I imagine that devout Muslims know the veracity of Jesus saying about the sword as well. Anyone trying to do God's will knows that we all inevitably face argument, division, apathy, and even threats.

Conversly, if we never take a stand, we might avoid the sword. Yet, are we really acting as children of God if we do not know the sword?

Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3

[Rasha]

:) first time to meet a Christian who understands!!

Now.... fist let me talk about what you said in answer to these questions.... where did u get this answer from? Do you have proof to support it! Sorry i'm a typical Muslimah... I don't accept anything any man tells me. I need proof. In Islam, we need solid proof for everything we say. Not anyone has the right to make his own opinion in islam. Sadly this is happening and this is why the muslims are lost in this world. Some here might think i'm extremist... but I like to go back to authentic sources... Alhamdulillah I am blessed with having my family collect books that date back to 1000 years ago. If it was not for that, I'd really not know where i can learn my faith from. I need to have things that are as pure as they came from God. yes the books are falling apart... but they are the family's treasure!!

And I am so happy they are all in my room..... Allah loved me as to trust me with this much knowledge right beside me!

So.. yea pal.... you say these are the answers and explanations... can you please tell me where i can find it in an authentic Christian book.

please choose a book that all christians agree to. I know there are some things that Catholics don't like or whatever not... If u can find these answers in places that ALL christians agree to I'd be grateful.

regarding the issue of ruling.... well....ok I see ur point but.... humans need guidbooks!! Look at everything around you, we have "man made rules" for every single thing u can think of. "How to treate ur wife", "what to do on ur first date", "how to get a healthy diet", how how how how... i can go on and on. Why do we need these books?? Cause as Human beings, we need guidlines!! We can't have a chaotic life!! This is why God, who knows what we need more than ourselves, must send to us what to do. or else, we will make them. Why can't God tell us how things should be done! He created us, and he knows what is best for us more than we do. I might think that alcohol is good for me. I can think its right... then 1000 years from now... they can prove that it indeed was not good for me. Hasn't this happened before?? Well.... then if God loves me and wants to make my life good and easy, He would tell me what is good and what is bad.. what to do and what not to do!! Right??!

for that reason.. Jesus must have told you what to do. Indeed if he had time maybe he would have. Jesus came to complete what Moses has come to deliver. And so did Mohammad.. he came to compelete what Jesus himself came to complete! Why is this impossible for you to accept?

You know... I don't usually share too personal stories.. but there is a reason i feel i must. Three years ago, I was tempted to become a Christian. To me... it would have been a big step... my family have been muslims for generations... but I had a determination to find the truth no matter what.... and i was ready to fight for it. I studied the bible. Read it and stuff. Then, after it..... I didn't find satisfaction... I needed more.. something clearer, easier, more closer to the heart.... I read the Quraan... my family are not strict muslims... so up till that age.. i never really held and learned the quraan or anything.... but when i heard it recited.... my tears rolled down.... I knew i had finally found what i want. This is ofcourse a skeleton of what I went through... it took me awhile of course to study the bible and all that.... you know... seriously... All religions are from God... the same God... and that God has always sent us prophets.... to guide us and show us the way... if you really studied islam with an open mind.... away from fear that your friends will abandon you, away from fear that you shall be criticized or anything like that... but with a sincere wish to prove to yourself that you are either on the right or wrong path... I am sure you will find in it peace and satisfaction.

The problem is, the internet is not a trust worthy source. Islam is a very very very compelte religion with rules about every single thing. you just need to read the right book. In my journey, I have learned not to trust anyone who says anything. There are tones of "so called scholars" out there. Many claim to follow Allah and the messenger... me... as ignorant as I might be .... I can myself spot right away some of the things which are wrong which they claim is right. how do i know?? I refer to the books of the sayings of the prophet... the books of the oldest generations. These are the sources I can trust to tell me the truth!! You too should do that. I know of very few sites which have these authentic sources. If you wish, I can provide you with some

The bible is also the word of Allah.... however, the people have changed it around. I have talked to one of the missionaries, whom i feel sorry cause i annoyed to hell :P but... I said to him... why did they change the bible?? you know what he said, he said... to make it easier to understand and more up to date with today's life. My responce was, is not God able to send us something which is good for everytime and every place?? This is why muslims refuse to even change a letter in the quraan. It must be as it was revealed. Some islamic scholars and i can name few, try to modernize islam. Make it "fit" with the "wester and more modern" world. I really feel sick to the bones when i see that... cause islam is already fit with today's life. If you don't like it.... don't be a muslim!! who gave anyone the permission to speak on behalf of god.. to say what will be changed and what will not!!!! Who gave us the right to make assumptions and decisions in regards to the world of God!!!

I am sickened with this... trust me... please do urself a favour.. and read the quraan as you would read the bible for a second... put off the issue of who is Jesus for a minute...and read it... don't tell me... "yea its a really good book"... I'm saying..read it with an open heart... see the similarities... and its not a surprise... because its from the same source!!

"love ur neighbor as you love urself" this is what jesus peace be upon him said?? well prophet mohammad peace be upon him said.."non of you shall believe until you love to your brother what you love for yourself". Islam makes every muslim the brother and sister of the other muslim!! This is one similarities...and u will find millions not one or two!! Why??? it comes from the same God!!

Believe it or not, the devout Christians which i have met, those who are closest to the truth about god... believe in every single thing we muslims believe in excpet when it comes to Who is Jesus?? Who is God!!

This issue is the basic one....one you and only you can find out for urself!!

Don't follow what anyone says.. check things out!! not every word any muslim says is a word to be taken!! Don't follow man.. follow God!! Who is John, Matthew or anyone to write the word of God!! Who gave them the right.... it says in their chapters that they tried to write what they heard from the witnesses, then they were not witnesses, then who gave them the permission to write. Now why do you think people listen to both sides of any story?? cause one might say it from HIS point of view... if Matthew was writing what happened from the point of view of whoever the witness is... then it might be distorted... the truth might be missing!!

It might have some truths... but it will for sure have some mistakes too!!

you said: "the moral demands of his gospel are to treat other human beings as sisters and brothers in the Lord."

there we go...another similarity!! Muslims are brothers and sisters in islam!! We love each other for the sake of Allah...

regarding the saying of the sword stuff... why did you give urself the right to interpret it this way?? again where is the proof?? and why then do many not do the same for the quraan??? Why not read the quraan in context??? just cause some muslims say this is what the quraan means... doesn't mean its right!! Read things for urself, see what the quraan really says... and i personally have very few trusty sources for explanations of quraan.... maybe you should refer to these to see what the specific verses regarding actual fighting for the sake of Allah mean!!

Jesus is saying his message wil cause division you say, well let me tell you what prophet mohammad peace be upon him said: he said, "islam began as something strange and shall return to be something strange, so give glad tidings to the strangers" in the explanation of this saying, the scholars (and yes they are trust worhty sources) say: islam began as something new that people who lived in ignorance didn't see as normal, to worship one god etc... and so it will be in the end of time... to people, practicing islam will be strange and not easy.

people will see the followers of islam as weirdos!! you know... not only do Christians and jews and athiest see true muslims as strangers, but so do many muslims too. I personally can talk from experience.... you know what my family say.... i'm the crazy one!! So what can i do.. just cause i follow the way of Allah... just cause I stick to the rules and do not bend them not for anything in this world... i become extremist!! I think this is what you were talking about....

"I sense the sword when I speak out against abortion, divorce, and the contraceptive mentality." yes... this is how muslims feel everyday, every second and with every breath we take!!

I've not been so well lately, not physically, but emotionally, cause this "sword" has wounded me so much.... I hate this world where all hate, all fight, all kill, very few follow the way of Allah... the way of our beloved prophet.... I wish I can be with Allah... to his side... with the prophets... and the righteous.. away from this corrupt world...where all around us is evil!! I don't see much beauty left... maybe when i marry, and see life with children... with people that i am responsible to teach about Allah and how to be good muslims... maybe then i'll see joy... but today... right now.. i see the evil all around.... and my heart cries out!! I wish i can help the people see god.... see the way of god and the teachings of God.. but... sadly... my words fall on deaf ears!!

I pray that Allah will open your heart to truth...and will help you see truth...so that you can with Allah's willing, be a servant to God Alone!!

peace,
Rasha

[Tita]

>:)
>
>ok ok... first of all... Prophet Mohammad addressed
>EVERYTHING including rules that forbade drugs, alcohol, and
>rules that deal with every possible conflict that could
>arrise! Just cause you don't know they exist doesn't mean
>they don't. I can find u a ruling on illegal pregnancies if
>you want. I can find you a ruling on drugs, illegal sleeping
>around...etc. You name it!

OK, I'm game. Find me some rules on registering my car, for starters, or on how many emergency exits should be in a building. Nah, let's go for something more difficult . . . is it OK to own a computer with internet access? Or any computer at all? :-)

Hope I'm not being offensive in this, but I think you get the idea. There is NO WAY that any book could address every single situation we face on a daily basis. For one thing, that book would be so big nobody could ever find anything in it! :-) In this, I think you and I agree: there are *principles* in the Koran and the Bible that can be applied to every situation you can face. The principles are universal, but the actual situations vary with times, seasons, cultures, countries, etc. For instance, the Bible doesn't say much about labor unions or mandatory overtime, but it does say that the hired man is worthy of his hire. So it's easy to see that you must pay people for their work. Get it?
>
>Secondly, let me get the bible and see if these "three"
>questions are there again.
>
>hmmm...since i'm reading now.. this verse is interesting:
>

I'll let JCG handle most of these, as he has done so aptly already.

10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:
>but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
>[question... saved? I thought Jesus was killed on the
>cross... how is he saved?]

. . . but I will address this one. Jesus was not saved. He is the person talking in this verse, referring to those who continue in their faith in Him. He is not talking about Himself.
>
>10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into
>another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone
>over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
>[what son of man is coming?]

The son of man, as used in the Gospels, refers to Jesus.


>ok I read the verse you mentioned (Matthew 17:1-4) and I do
>nto see them searching for Moses!!! It says they met
>Moses.... I do'nt think anyone is looking for Moses

Whoops, I think *I* may have put down the wrong reference this time. :-) I'll come back to this.
>
>Mohammad is not here... his teachings is here, and every
>single thing he did is here... this will stay with us. Can
>you honestly tell me how jesus ate, how he drank, how he
>used the washroom, what he taught you guys to do when u
>marry, when u sleep, when you walk, when you laugh??!!

No, I could not, and I wouldn't be at all interested in these topics anyway. (Except that He did talk about marriage.) These sorts of topics were covered in the Old Testament, but we are not subject to those rules now.
>
>Isaiah 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not
>learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am
>not learned.
>
>all these quotations are taken from:
>http://www.genesis.net.au/~bible/kjv/isaiah/
>
>in 29:11 it says "man delivers" The Quraan was not delivered
>to Mohammad by man!!! So since its ur religion, ur bible...
>can u tell me who is delivering the book to who?!

Isaiah is predicting the destruction of those who fight against Israel, and saying that even their wise men will be as those who have no learning. You should probably start reading this chapter at v. 1 and see what I mean.
>
>> What do we begin with that? The only time we use it at my church is during a baptism.
>
>Well....I guess u dont' start with the name of the lord at
>all then. :)

We don't use that particular "formula", but we certainly use the Lord's name.

and besides.... i didn't talk only about ur
>church...i'm talking about christianity in general... go to
>other churches... i got some missionaries come to my house
>who even used it before they start preaching!!

Oh, I'm sure there are some Christians out there who do that. I read somewhere that there are 79 sects of Islam--don't know if that's true. But rest assured, that there are at least that many major denominations of Christianity, not to mention the multiple subgroups of each of the major denominations. And each group does things in their own way. Using "In the name of the Father . . . " etc., before starting multiple activities is one of literally hundreds of differences between the multiple denominations. I mean, I'm a preservationist Baptist, and I would never attend half the churches out there that call themselves Baptists. Then there are the Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, non-denominationals, Assemblies of God, Foursquare churches, Pentecostals, charismatics . . . etc. And that's just the biggest groups of the Protestants. That's not even touching the many subgroups within each of those groups, Catholics, or other groups like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses. (And Mormons have their own denominations, as well.)

Peace to you,
Tita

[Rasha]

first of all....

if we're here to play around... we can all do that. I'm not here to waste time... cars/internet bla bla bla.... here is the general rule anything that brings harm.. is not allowed!

Islam is about how to live..if u have internet...and u know that ur son uses it to watch porno... then its not allowed for u to have internet!!! simple...unless u can stop the bad thing... then and only then would it be allowed. Similarly, TV.... some say its not allowed... well what part of it is not allowed....not the actual owning of a Tv... not the watching of it... but watching specific things in it!!

regestering a car.... what do u do to register( sorry i have no car so i can't tell) but... depends on the actions u do... owning a car should be fine... unless u use a car to go to bad places...

you said: (No, I could not, and I wouldn't be at all interested in these topics anyway. (Except that He did talk about marriage.) These sorts of topics were covered in the Old Testament, but we are not subject to those rules now.)

what a shame!! You are not interested in knowing the perfect way in which your "lord" did things!! Aren't we supposed to be godly?? good and do things right... how else would we know if we didn't do it the way God wants us to do it.... I am personally interested in knowing how did the prophets do things cause I want to do things the way Allah loves it. Sadly, not everyone is like me.

you are not subject to these rules....hmm.... ok...!! I thought God's rules apply to all of us! I guess some think they are not. ok! as u wish... on day of judgement... you can sort it out with God yourself!

there are not 79 sects of islam... the prophet peace be upon him said... at the end of time, there shall be 71 sects of jews, 72 sects of christians and 73 sects of muslims.... all shall be lead astray except one sect... when asked who that sect is... he answered...the one who follows my way!

Well anyways.... i don't like to argue.. it takes us no where... if ur interested in learning or teaching, that would be different...

The prophet peace be upon him hated to argue and i shall do the same. I shall not argue!

peace to all
Rasha

[Rasha]

NutCurtains (a christian I believe) pasted this in another thread Tita.... just thought it might interest you


The phrase "son of man" is clearly delibrately ambiguous and thus could delibrately have many meanings. One such meaning (of many possible meanings) is clearly a reference to the future of mankind - the son of man.

I seriously think TRUE religion is to bring up your family as best as you can. If mankind has any real hope of heaven the most likely (if remote) candidate lies in the future.

Indeed Eziekel - son of Man - and what a strange "science fiction" type tale Eziekel is - to say the least! Perhaps you can see what I'm driving at.

Eziekel starts off with lots of weirdness and many references to "son of man". It ends with THREE words "YHWH (G_d) is there".

[Tita]

>first of all....
>
>if we're here to play around... we can all do that. I'm not
>here to waste time... cars/internet bla bla bla.... here is
>the general rule anything that brings harm.. is not allowed!
>
>Islam is about how to live..if u have internet...and u know
>that ur son uses it to watch porno... then its not allowed
>for u to have internet!!! simple...unless u can stop the bad
>thing... then and only then would it be allowed. Similarly,
>TV.... some say its not allowed... well what part of it is
>not allowed....not the actual owning of a Tv... not the
>watching of it... but watching specific things in it!!

Hey, I didn't mean to raise your hackles, so to speak. It's just that you said that ANYTHING that we face in daily life is specifically mentioned in the Koran, so I took you up on it. Now you see my point--the principles are there, even if the specific items are not.

>what a shame!! You are not interested in knowing the perfect
>way in which your "lord" did things!!

No, I'm not interested, because He 1)didn't tell us and 2)didn't command us to do those things just like He did them (such as washing ourselves, using the bathroom, sleeping, etc. If it were important, He would have told us.


>you are not subject to these rules....hmm.... ok...!! I
>thought God's rules apply to all of us!

Not the Old Testament rules. Do you follow them?

Well anyways.... i don't like to argue.. it takes us no
>where... if ur interested in learning or teaching, that
>would be different...

Arguing? Who is arguing? I thought we were discussing the Biblical prophecies for the coming of Mohammed. You are the one who has brought up a lot of extra stuff, which I did my best to answer, that's all. I suggest we get back to the topic of this thread.

Peace to you,
Tita

[Rasha]

"Not the Old Testament rules. Do you follow them?"

:) I follow them more than any christian :)

[Rasha]

:) here is what i said....

ok ok... first of all... Prophet Mohammad addressed EVERYTHING including rules that forbade drugs, alcohol, and rules that deal with every possible conflict that could arrise! Just cause you don't know they exist doesn't mean they don't. I can find u a ruling on illegal pregnancies if you want. I can find you a ruling on drugs, illegal sleeping around...etc. You name it!

I never even mentioned anything about "equipment or devices". I clearly talked about rules!

= )

hope this clarifies the conflict.

:) sorry if i don't see ur point... guess our brains are in different orientation.

[Tita]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 14-03-02 AT 05:15&nbsp;AM (GMT)]After thinking about it, I think I get what you were trying to say. You said you could get "rulings" on anything, right? Since we were talking about the Koran, I mistakenly took that to mean that you were saying that the Koran specifically mentions everything you can think of, which, of course, would be absurd. But rulings . . . that's a different matter. Of course you could get a ruling on any subject you want. I understand that.

This is a big difference between Islam and Protestant Christianity. We can go to whomever we want, such as a pastor, to get their opinion on a particular topic, but there is no formal system for having this done in the way that there is in Islam. And that person we go to is not considered to have any special authority. We are just as likely to research a topic on our own and use whatever tools we have--concordances, dictionaries, various commentaries, maps, varying translations--anything that might help us understand a particular topic or passage. In other denominations of Christianity, they do have a formal system where the head of a particular group (like the Pope, for example) will state the official church position on a topic.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand . . . nah, it's too late tonight. x(

Peace to you,
Tita

[BinZiad]

"..Koran specifically mentions everything you can think of, which, of course, would be absurd. But rulings ...."

What do mean here, tita?

The quran has laid down rules and regulations, which will stay with us until the end of time, and if one follows it, i.e. indivually or as a state, it will only bring benefits to that person or country or even the time where it is being established.

And as i should tell you, we in islam, rely on two sources to derive rules, the quran and the sunnah. Then if the matter is not found in both of these sources then we look into the qiyas, the sayings and commandments of the sahabahs (companions of the rasul). If the matter is still not found here, then we look into the ijma (the majority opinon held by the scholars of the past). If the matter is not found here also, then the scholar looking to find the answer for that specific situation will perform ijtihad, the person will independently collect judgment from the sources.

I hope this explains a little...there are many others here who will be able to answer it better...

BinZiad

[Rasha]

"This is a big difference between Islam and Protestant Christianity. We can go to whomever we want, such as a pastor, to get their opinion on a particular topic, but there is no formal system for having this done in the way that there is in Islam. And that person we go to is not considered to have any special authority. We are just as likely to research a topic on our own and use whatever tools we have--concordances, dictionaries, various commentaries, maps, varying translations--anything that might help us understand a particular topic or passage. In other denominations of Christianity, they do have a formal system where the head of a particular group (like the Pope, for example) will state the official church position on a topic."

:) man made rules :)

[Rasha]

Just to clarify a bit what my brother said....

Tita was not arguing that quraan has rules... she thought I was saying Quraan talks about everything (ex. cars, tv, etc) But What I meant is... using Quraan and sayings of the prophet we can find rules that should satisfy almost 99% of any situation we come to. The prophet peace be upon him said: There are things that Allah has made forbiden, so avoid them, things which he allowed, so enjoy them, and things he didn't make a ruling on them. so do not ask much about things which if u know will make ur life hard (or something along these lines).

If a person wants, he can use all the things in quraan and sunnah only and these should be sufficient. However, many are extra careful and want to know other things that deal with different aspects of life. This is why the companions of the prophet... when any situation that has come for first time, they would check if it has something similar, base their opinion on that. So did the previous generation. Not anyone is allowed to make a ruling in islam. Only specific scholars. This sadly today anyone who claims to be a scholar gives himself this authority. I personally hate to follow the new generation of scholars... they use little proof in their reasoning... and also very weak proof.

However, almost all issues have been discussed by the major islamic scholars that came before us. We do not need to wait for a scholar to give a ruling on what to do cause of "sept 11" for example!! Sadly some people would want... i don't see why we need it!!

my point is... yes we need scholars today... but the scholars should be following strict rules of Allah and the way of the companions and not making rules that make the people happy about islam. Sadly, today you can't take rules from anyone. may Allah guide all our scholars to the true islamic teachings.

This (what i talked about) is referring to Ijtihad. We should be careful who do we give authority to .. to do ijtihad. Sadly today almost anyone who studied islamic studies for few years thinks that qualifies him to do ijtihad. This is not the case!

:) the person who does ijtihad does research in islamic teachings and situations that seem similar.... then collectively scholars brings out a ruling... if the proofs they provide from quraan and hadith are strong... we take by it... if not... i personally will not accept it.

ne ways... time to go.

salam
Rasha

[BinZiad]

>Just to clarify a bit what my brother said....
>
>Tita was not arguing that quraan has rules... she thought I
>was saying Quraan talks about everything (ex. cars, tv, etc)
>But What I meant is... using Quraan and sayings of the
>prophet we can find rules that should satisfy almost 99% of
>any situation we come to. The prophet peace be upon him
>said: There are things that Allah has made forbiden, so
>avoid them, things which he allowed, so enjoy them, and
>things he didn't make a ruling on them. so do not ask much
>about things which if u know will make ur life hard (or
>something along these lines).

I agree with you here, most of the things in life have be answered by the quran.

>If a person wants, he can use all the things in quraan and
>sunnah only and these should be sufficient. However, many
>are extra careful and want to know other things that deal
>with different aspects of life. This is why the companions
>of the prophet... when any situation that has come for first
>time, they would check if it has something similar, base
>their opinion on that. So did the previous generation. Not
>anyone is allowed to make a ruling in islam. Only specific
>scholars.

Yes, very true, you are supps to look at the past to look into the future...makes sense..

This sadly today anyone who claims to be a scholar
>gives himself this authority. I personally hate to follow
>the new generation of scholars... they use little proof in
>their reasoning... and also very weak proof.

Not hate!! You are concerned with thier views. As i say, there are a lot of 'DIY' scholars, who read couple of books and then become muftis.


>However, almost all issues have been discussed by the major
>islamic scholars that came before us. We do not need to wait
>for a scholar to give a ruling on what to do cause of "sept
>11" for example!! Sadly some people would want... i don't
>see why we need it!!

Yes, most issues have been answered, yet new situations are needed to be dealt by scholars, (s), meaning if the issue is big, the scholars of the world should come together...and then deal with it..

>my point is... yes we need scholars today... but the
>scholars should be following strict rules of Allah and the
>way of the companions and not making rules that make the
>people happy about islam. Sadly, today you can't take rules
>from anyone. may Allah guide all our scholars to the true
>islamic teachings.

Yes, they should follow the quran and sunnah. There are rules also, put my great scholars and imams of the past.


>This (what i talked about) is referring to Ijtihad. We
>should be careful who do we give authority to .. to do
>ijtihad. Sadly today almost anyone who studied islamic
>studies for few years thinks that qualifies him to do
>ijtihad. This is not the case!

Now i will post some rules concerning ijtihad;

which serve as necessary conditions in the process of juristic reasoning (Ijtihad). Among them are the following:

1- Certainly, the Book (Qur'an) and the Prophet" tradition (sunnah) are two main sources in formulating Islamic laws.

2- No one has the right to give his own Ijtihad in any case whenever there is a legal law in the Book of Allah and the Prophet's sunnah.

"...And whatever 'he Messenger gives you accept it, and whateve he forbids you, abstain (there from);...)"

Holy Qur'an (59:7)

3- Only one judgement for one subject falling under the same circumstances and conditions, and which represents the pure legal opinion.

Therefore, in the process of juristic reasoning (Ijtihad), one should distinguish between aim and its result. The aim is to arrive at the truth and discover a true law. i.e. one law for the same subject but sometimes one finds the jurists having various laws for the same subject.

This does not mean the correctness of all ideas. Thus the truth of formulating of law depends on the soundness of the juristic reasoning or the system of Ijtihad and its sources. Therefore, not every source or method of reasoning is sound or has the capacity to formulate the right law.

4- The laws discovered by the faqih are only estimated but not final and should therefore be subjected to scientific discussion and strict legal scrutiny.

5- As a result of the previous point, we should understand that the process of juristic reasoning is a critical one in which discovered opinion undergoes a thorough accurate criticism, and evaluation in order to arrive at the correct law. No juristic reasoning could be considered sound if it is not subjected to criticism and scientific discussion.

6- Juristic reasoning should be pure and free from any fanaticism or internal and external factors such as political and sectarian tendencies and should be capable of withstanding scientific analysis and criticism. Therefore, Ijtihad is a scientific process based on research and inquiry.

--------------------------

Hope this helps too..



>:) the person who does ijtihad does research in islamic
>teachings and situations that seem similar.... then
>collectively scholars brings out a ruling... if the proofs
>they provide from quraan and hadith are strong... we take by
>it... if not... i personally will not accept it.

Not strong, but correct and it is agreed with other scholars of the world.


>ne ways... time to go.

Same here... you do know alot, keep it up..

>salam
>Rasha

Salam to you too and everyone..

[servant_of_Allah]

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

"And as i should tell you, we in islam, rely on two sources to derive rules, the quran and the sunnah. Then if the matter is not found in both of these sources then we look into the qiyas, the sayings and commandments of the sahabahs (companions of the rasul). If the matter is still not found here, then we look into the ijma (the majority opinon held by the scholars of the past). If the matter is not found here also, then the scholar looking to find the answer for that specific situation will perform ijtihad, the person will independently collect judgment from the sources."

I just wanted to correct the brother on one point.

The sources of Islamic Law are : the Qur'an, the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), Ijma and Qiyas.

The brother put Qiyas before Ijmaa. To the best of my knowledge, Ijmaa comes before Qiyas.

And Allah knows best.

Wassalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah,
servant of Allah.



________
vaporizer help (http://vaporizer.org/forum/vaporizer-questions/)

[jcecil3]

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 14-03-02 AT 09:09&nbsp;PM (GMT)]Greetings Rasha,

I was away for one day, and so much has been said on this thread!

You ask for proof in the form of a book that all Christians agree to. The only book all Christians agree to is the Bible, so I'm not sure what other book you could mean. Besides, if such a book existed, it wouldn't be God's word would it?

In other words, the Biblical text in context seems to speak for itself to me, though I admit I was confused before I had read more of the Bible.

Regarding my personal interpretation of a Biblical passage, I may be incorrect. You are wise not to just trust what anyone says without examining the verses yourself. At the same time, if you disagree with the way I interpret a Biblical passage, I believe it would be reasonable for me to ask if you have an alternate explanation that makes more sense in context than mine.

Regarding some other issues....

I think Tita adequately answered the issue about so many rules to life. Any book that literally had a rule for every conceivable situation would be so thick, we could not find what we need.

While Islamic rules for washing and so forth may have a rich and beautiful symbolism worth incorporating into a personal spiritually, I find it hard to believe that Allah really judges all people on the manner in which they wash.

On the other hand, as you rightly point out, there are similarities between Jesus' teaching on the golden rule, and Mohammed's teaching. Indeed, the notion of treating others the way you wish to be treated finds parralels in Bhuddism, Confusionism, African tribal animism, secular Greek philosophy, etc....Thus, one could argue that the law of love is taught by all religions and it would seem conceivable that Allah does judge all people on the way they love other people. Jesus was quite explicit that he saw love of God and neigbor as the foundation of all other religious practice.

You raise some interesting questions about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. I have touched on these issues in other places. I am Roman Catholic, and many times, I find myself in long and sometimes heated discussions with my Protestant sisters and brothers. However, while we may disagree about things like the Pope, purgatory, the role of Mary in salvation history, tradition, etc... there are more essential things that we all agree upon.

All Christians believe that God is one and Trinity. All Christians believe that Jesus is true God and true man. All Christians believe that atonement was won for us by Christ on the cross. All Christians practice baptism and communion. All Christians believe that the Bible is inspired by God and inerrant in matters of faith and morals. I suppose a short extra-Biblical summary are the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed.

Regarding changes to the Bible, I'm not sure what you are referring to. Do you mean that the English translations were updated with more modern language? If so, that is because the English language changed. In other words, words do not mean the same thing today that they meant 400 years ago. For example, in 1611, "meat" meant any kind of food, and is used to translate the Greek word for bread in places. Today, in English, "Meat" always refers to food from animal flesh, and would be an incorrect translation of the original Greek.

I suppose that if you want extra-Biblical summaries of the common points that all Christians agree with, you could turn to the decrees of the first three Ecumenical Councils (Nicea, Constantinople I, and Ephesus). I am pretty certian that the decrees of these three councils are agreed upon by everyone, or by such a large majority, that the minority is insignificant. However, I would also point out that there is nothing in these councils that one could not have derived from the Bible alone.

You can view the Church councils at the following site: http://www.newadvent.org/directory/14388a_04423f.htm

Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3

[Rasha]

greetings...jcecil

Ok about the book i said all christian agree to.. I meant a book which explain the verses and one that all christians would go to for to find out what the verse actually means. Cause if you don't have one, then each person can interpret the verse as they wish. In islam, we have a book compiled by an islamic scholar who is hmm... really really really really long time ago (:)I can't tell you the date) but.. what they did is... they looked up the explanations that the prophet peace be upon him has given for various verses, and put it together in a book. This way, all muslims KNOW what each verse refers to, whom does it refer to, when and why was it revealed...etc.

We call that tafsir. So... does the bible have anything like that?? Something that all of you would look up to in order to know what each verse is talking about... or does each one make up the explanation they like?

It is certainly not the words of god... but the explanations given by the prophet of God :) in ur case it would either be the holy ghost i guess or something...or maybe john or matthew or whoever writes these things taht all christians believe in.

I don't agree that all biblical text speak for itself... some might not be 100% clear... well at least to me... so.. how do i know if what i think it means is right?? Also, you must admit the bible has been simplified over the years to suit the people...what if that has changed the meaning a bit??!! I would like to actually find the ORIGINAL source to see for myself what things mean.

regarding ur interpretation of the verse... i hope we are referring to the same verse (the sword issue)....

well... i don't know! I read the verses around it... i read from the beginning while i was looking for the verse i told u about.. .it just seems to come out of no where and has no relationship with what is being said around it. But if i wanted i could read it to mean that he said don't think i came to make u all sit and be peaceful but to fight till all believe, for example! Can you prove me wrong? No you can't! This is what i meant by is there a book? cause if it was carved in stones that this is the meaning of such and such verse... then I would take it. but again u can't go make a book now and make it a standard...these things should have been done in the time of JEsus so he can himself explain what he meant by everything.

As for the islamic ruling... these are nto rules for us to be judged... these are rules on how to live so we can get the benefit. There is a rule in islam that says, that if u do ur best.. then you will be rewarded. Allah only asks for us to offer our best effort in any situation. In the Quraan it says that Allah doesn't ask us for more than we can take. But Allah will judge us whether we offer our best effort in any rule which he has given us. The washing is healthy!! It is proven if u want it to be all scientific. All the islamic ruling now that i think of it... are of benefit to us.... some we are still discovering!

"All Christians believe that God is one and Trinity."
not true!! I have had christians come to my door (have no clue what sect they are) who said to me... that they do not believe Jesus is God. They said that to be saved I must believe in Jesus as the son and not god himself. They said that God is one!!

"All Christians believe that Jesus is true God and true man." again not true.

"Regarding changes to the Bible, I'm not sure what you are referring to. Do you mean that the English translations were updated with more modern language?"
yes...this is one issue.. but also the issue of... some bible uses the word "praise worthy" (just an example that just comes to mind now) while others say "the all together lovely". I think these are totally different things. The praise worthy in arabic translates to Mohammad.... :)

I do not think that they have the right to judge what has changed in the bible...by changing words they change meanings.. .they might have thought this is the best word that is "modern" but who gave them the right to make these decisions. IT was based on their way of interpretting things... what if i made a different interpretation??

You might be right about the meat thing.... but i do'nt think the word praise worthy has changed :) I am sure there are others.

thanks for the reference i'll check that out later as it is now time to break my fast :) take care you all....peace

[jcecil3]

Greetings Rasha!

I understand your question better now. Yeah -- you are right that a verse in the Bible by itself, even when read with two or three verses around it, can be confusing.

What I meant by context was the context of the entire Bible, and especially the New Testament. For example, how can one believe that the same Jesus who made the saying about the sword also said that we are to love our enemies, bless those who persecute us, forgive 7x77 times, and when we are struck on the right cheek, turn and offer the left cheek. Likewise, in garden of Gesthemene, when a desciple pulls a sword to defend Jesus from the soldiers, Jesus tells him to put the sword away.

So, by word and example, Jesus is telling us not to use the sword, yet he tells us that he came to bring the sword. How do we put it together. The only intepretation that makes sense in the context of the whole story of Jesus life is that he meant that persecution would come to us if we follow God's will, just as it came to him when he was crucified.

Again, this is my opinion of the verse, but I think it's an opinion that makes sense of the whole.

As far as a book: There is no one book that all Christians accept. Yet, there is a scholarly consensus on most major points that most Christians accept.

Catholics do accept what we call "Sacred Tradition". Thus, we accept the decrees of the Councils listed on the web site in my last post, as well as Papal interpretations of Scripture, and the writings of certain saints called "doctors and fathers of the Church" (which include two women). We also are encouraged to read commentaries by contemporary Bible scholars. For English speaking Catholics, a good line by line commentary that's easy to use is "The New Jerome Biblical Commentary". As far as other scholars, I personally like Raymond E. Brown, John Meier, and Joseph Fitzmayer, who are globally recognized even outside of Catholicism as good scholars of the Bible. For the Old testament, I like Lawrence Boadt. Furthermore, Catholics typically have footnotes in their Bibles that provide historical information that may be helpful in understanding the context of a given verse.

You can check out a Catholic Bible with its footnotes at: http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/index.htm

Protestants do not trust tradition as much as Catholics. Indeed, the very word "Protestant" comes from "Pro-Testament", meaning that the Protestants believed in the Testament of the Bible alone. They broke away form Catholic tradition precisely because they accepted a doctrine called "sola scriptura" (the Bible alone). For Protestants, the Bible is the sole authority and the sole court of arbitration in settling matters of doctrine. Many Protestants consider it almost blasphemous to add commentary to a Bible. True, some Protestant Bibles have footnotes, but they are added almost grudgingly by scholars who feel that some explanation is necessary in 2,000-4,000 year old texts. While Protestants do produce some very good commentaries, including Peake's Commentary (liberal) and the Anchor Bible Commentaries (conservative), all Protestants believe that the Bible can be understood without excessive commentary.

There is a saying that the main things are the plain, and the plain things are in the main. This means that when we read through the entire Bible, certain truths jump out over and over. As these sink in, they start helping us to intepret the more obscure passages, without use of a commentary.

There is also a saying that a text out of context is a pretext for heresy. In other words, we need to avoid taking the obscure passages to build a doctrine that is inconsistent withthe plain message of the rest of Scripture and inconsistent with the historic Christian faith.

Hope that helps...

Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3

[Rasha]

:)

glad it is clearer now.

Regarding the verse.... yea ok what u said makes sense.. but.. it could mean that Jesus didn't say Go kill the people... i'm sure He didn't want you to kill others just like that.. but what if he was referring to a specific thing. For example, in islam there are really specific situations when killing is allowed... there are conditions are rules, you can't just go kill anyone. Similarly, Jesus could have meant to kill in specific times not just feeling like killing ok go kill!

I'm not trying to say this verse means that or anything.... I'm not an expert on the bible... but what really caught my attention is the fact that... many christians now (we see it all over the news) say that Islam is such a horrible religion etc and they use specific Quranic verses without looking into when and why they were sent down. I could go around, take this verse and just say.. see.. Jesus meant to kill everyone!!

This is why it caught my attention so much... and what also was interesting the way you said that the bible is not saying that.. and when i explain that the quraan didn't say this but i say.. read the verses around it... they people usually refuse and say.. no no no.

Anyways... thanks for the explanation... :)

what you are doing with explaning the verses, is... putting two and two together, and also interpretting it to the best of ur understanding. Human minds are limited... :) we can't understand everything... and this is why I believe God himself must explain what is meant.. in islam... Allah told our beloved prophet Mohammad what to say to us... :)

ok now i get ya.. no united books kinda thing. ok.

:)

i guess not much to say on this.

[Tita]

Wow, jcecil, that was really good! You explained it all much better than I ever could.

One question: I thought the word Protestant was simply used to means "one who protests". Although your definition works quite well, also. :-)

Sola scriptura!
And peace to you,
Tita

[Tita]

>greetings...jcecil
>
>Ok about the book i said all christian agree to.. I meant a
>book which explain the verses and one that all christians
>would go to for to find out what the verse actually means.
>Cause if you don't have one, then each person can interpret
>the verse as they wish.

No, we don't have any one book that we all go to, and even if we did, we'd probably argue about what *that* meant, too. :-) As a Protestant, I believe that anyone who has the right tools has the ability to understand the Bible correctly, and need not rely on anyone else's judgment.

In islam, we have a book compiled by
>an islamic scholar who is hmm... really really really really
>long time ago (:)I can't tell you the date) but.. what they
>did is... they looked up the explanations that the prophet
>peace be upon him has given for various verses, and put it
>together in a book. This way, all muslims KNOW what each
>verse refers to, whom does it refer to, when and why was it
>revealed...etc.

But not even all Muslims agree on all these, do they?
>
>We call that tafsir. So... does the bible have anything like
>that?? Something that all of you would look up to in order
>to know what each verse is talking about... or does each one
>make up the explanation they like?

I wouldn't say it's an explanation that we "like", necessarily, but the explanation they believe is the correct one, after asking for the Lord's help and doing their best to learn all they can about it. Sometimes I don't at all like the conclusion that I may come to after studying and praying, because it convicts me of sin in my life or urges me to an action that I don't want to carry out. But whether I like it or not is irrelevant--I just have to obey.
>
>
>I don't agree that all biblical text speak for itself...
>some might not be 100% clear... well at least to me... so..
>how do i know if what i think it means is right?? Also, you
>must admit the bible has been simplified over the years to
>suit the people...what if that has changed the meaning a
>bit??!! I would like to actually find the ORIGINAL source to
>see for myself what things mean.

I don't think it's been simplified at all--it's the same now as it was in the first century A.D. As for whether it's clear or not, that's undoubtedly a matter of perspective. I have read a lot of the Koran, and parts of it were absolutely incomprehensible to me at first. Some of it still is. But I found that after re-reading certain passages, and by listening to people on this site, some of it started to come together a little bit more. It is the same with the Bible, I'm sure, with the additional idea that as a Christian, the Holy Spirit helps you to understand it in a way that non-Christians do not.
>

>"All Christians believe that God is one and Trinity."
>not true!! I have had christians come to my door (have no
>clue what sect they are) who said to me... that they do not
>believe Jesus is God. They said that to be saved I must
>believe in Jesus as the son and not god himself. They said
>that God is one!!

It sounds like you were visited by Jehovah's Witnesses. In my belief, they are not true Christians. It's also worth noting that they use their own peculiar translation of the Bible, unrecognized by any other group of scholars.
>
>"All Christians believe that Jesus is true God and true
>man." again not true.
>
>"Regarding changes to the Bible, I'm not sure what you are
>referring to. Do you mean that the English translations were
>updated with more modern language?"
>yes...this is one issue.. but also the issue of... some
>bible uses the word "praise worthy" (just an example that
>just comes to mind now) while others say "the all together
>lovely". I think these are totally different things. The
>praise worthy in arabic translates to Mohammad.... :)

Were you reading translations or paraphrases? Translations actually "translate" the text, while paraphrases like the Living Bible actually try to put the text in an easier-to-understand way. They are useful for comparison, but not as accurate.
>
>I do not think that they have the right to judge what has
>changed in the bible...by changing words they change
>meanings.. .they might have thought this is the best word
>that is "modern" but who gave them the right to make these
>decisions. IT was based on their way of interpretting
>things... what if i made a different interpretation??

They're not changing the Bible. They're simply translating it more accurately, considering the times. I generally use the King James Translation, which was done in 1611, but if you try to read it as it was in 1611, it is incomprehensible. Many Christians who think they're reading the actual 1611 KJV don't even realize . . . the one we use today is actually from 1793. Asking English-speaking people today to read 1611 KJV makes as much sense as asking them to read it in the original Greek or Hebrew. New translations have always come along and always will come along, which leads to your next question (a good one): how do we know if a translation is correct? Well, how do you know if a particular translation of the Koran is correct? Either you learn the original language yourself (not a bad idea), or you rely on someone you trust, and compare their work with that of others as much as you can.

Peace to you,
Tita

[Rasha]

First

"But not even all Muslims agree on all these, do they?"

Anyone who follows the prophet's way accepts these books. (for muslims i'm referring to Sahih Muslim, Sahih Bukhari and Ibn Katheer) just to name some.

secondly, as i said... i have no clue what jahova's witnesses are. I had a friend who was with jahova's witnesses and she seemed cool.

anyways...thanks for letting me know that.

as for the translation being in accurate etc. ... i do'nt think u can say that with Quraan :)

I personally am blessed to speak the arabic langauge. Thus I can judge. I read english alot as I need it when i teach my new muslim friends or even muslim friends who don't speak arabic.

hmm.... i do'nt believe simplifying the word of God is a good choice...i'd much rather have God send it in a simple form from the beginning!

but then this is just my preferrence!

[Tita]

Do you mean that all translations of the Koran are equally correct?

[Rasha]

yes the quraan is just written in Arabic.... and the translations are all the same cause they put the exact explanation of each word if there is not a single word in that language which translates exactly to what the arabic means. Besides, because the other languages (English for example) has a bit lack in terms of Arabic grammer and words, you notice the clarifications made in brackets to show what is meant. In Arabic, we do not need so many words to say things. i.e. i can say something in arabic in 10 words and might need 20 to explain it in english. Got it?

You can check it urself. If you know more than one language, go check the quraan. Let us know if u find any differences. I have checked Arabic and english... both are same. The most trust worthy source is the Arabic Quraan because only that one is the exact word of God. The rest are just a way to explain to the non Arab muslims what the words they read in Arabic are trying to say. and Allah knows best.

[vancouver]

What Is God's Holy Spirit? ***
"Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: 'You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.'"-Luke 3:21, 22.

IN A speech to a group of philosophers in ancient Greece, the apostle Paul called God the "Lord of heaven and earth." It is this God, Paul stated, who "made the world and all the things in it" and who "gives to all persons life and breath and all things." (Acts 17:24-28) How does God accomplish all of this? It is by means of his holy spirit, or active force.

The Bible also explains that God has an "abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power." (Isaiah 40:26) Yes, God created the entire universe, which manifests his dynamic energy and power.

Power in Action

It would not be quite accurate to say that the holy spirit is God's power. This is because power can be latent, or inactively resident, in someone or something, such as power stored in a charged but unused battery. The Scriptures, however, present God's spirit in the context of being in motion, somewhat like the electric current that flows from a battery in use. (Genesis 1:2) Hence, God's holy spirit is his projected energy, his active force.

The Bible sometimes speaks of the holy spirit as accomplishing a certain task or of its being in a different location from God. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Luke 3:21, 22; Acts 8:39; 13:4; 15:28, 29) Some who have read such passages assume that the holy spirit has its own identity apart from God. Why is this language used in the Scriptures? Is the holy spirit an entity separate from God?

Almighty God exists on a plane completely beyond that of his material creation. He is a spirit, invisible to our limited senses. (John 4:24) The Bible says that Jehovah God dwells in the heavens and that from there he gazes on mankind. (Psalm 33:13, 14) This is understandable. The Creator must be greater than the elements he is working with. He masters them, manipulates them, forms them, and controls them.-Genesis 1:1.

From his invisible dwelling place, God can cause things to happen anytime and anywhere. Hence, he does not need to be at the location at which his active force operates. He can send his spirit to accomplish a task. (Psalm 104:30) This may be easily understood by people in modern times who operate household appliances by means of wireless remote control. Today we recognize the power of invisible forces such as electricity or infrared waves. Likewise, with his invisible holy force, or spirit, God can accomplish whatever he sets out to do, without transferring himself from one place to another.-Isaiah 55:11.

In Bible times this concept may have been difficult to grasp. Speaking of the holy spirit as a separate force undoubtedly helped readers to comprehend how God exercises his power even though he does not personally place himself at the location of its operation. When the Bible refers to the holy spirit as having done this or that, it is in effect saying that God himself has projected or exerted his power on persons or things to accomplish his will.

The Various Operations of the Holy Spirit

Jehovah made use of holy spirit in the creation of all animate and inanimate things. (Psalm 33:6) God also used it to destroy a violent and unrepentant generation of people by means of a deluge. (Genesis 6:1-22) It was this same active force that God used to transfer the precious life of his Son to the womb of the Jewish virgin Mary.-Luke 1:35.

At times, the spirit energized men to speak the truth boldly and courageously before enemies, often at the risk of their lives. (Micah 3:8) And there are many instances in the Bible, especially involving prophecy, when men and women were given special insight or understanding by means of this force. Since no human can foretell with accuracy what the future holds, this is an outstanding operation of the spirit.-2 Peter 1:20, 21.

The spirit can also give individuals miraculous powers. For example, by means of this force, Jesus could control the forces of nature, heal sicknesses, and even raise the dead. (Luke 4:18-21; 8:22-26, 49-56; 9:11) The spirit was instrumental in organizing and energizing the early Christians to serve as God's witnesses to all the earth.-Acts 1:8; 2:1-47; Romans 15:18, 19; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11.

God's Power Exerted in Our Behalf

Is it possible for God's human servants today to tap this unlimited source of energy? Yes! God grants a measure of holy spirit to his people to help them understand and accomplish his will. He grants his spirit to those who make a sincere, prayerful request, who have the right heart motivation, and who conform to his requirements. (1 Corinthians 2:10-16) That spirit can equip imperfect humans with "power beyond what is normal," enabling them to serve God faithfully despite obstacles. Certainly, then, it is the desire of all God-fearing people to receive and retain God's spirit.-2 Corinthians 4:7; Luke 11:13; Acts 15:8; Ephesians 4:30.

Soon God will use this dynamic force to stop the injustice and suffering in this wicked world, thereby sanctifying his great and holy name. Holy spirit will affect the whole world for good, and its fruitage will be evident for all to see, giving glory to its Originator.-Galatians 5:22, 23; Revelation 21:3, 4.

[JBJ]

Hi Rasha,

I've been told shia Muslims do not accept Bukhari. True?

JBJ

[JBJ]

This has gotten very long. Do the readers here all agree that John does not talk about Muhammad?

By the way, NEVER quote Meherally. He refuses to change his articles and site even when he's proven wrong. Is that not deceptive?

JBJ

[Rasha]

I have no clue what the Shia believe!! Shia are a sect not the main stream of muslims... I do not like to study their weird customs much. I do not think this is true though....

I know shia are sects too... so.. well my only contact with a shia was during highschool and she i think accepted most of the hadith.. i'm not sure if it is from Bukhari or not!

Allah knows best... I do not like to study weird sects as they are just a headache... i love the prophet and stick to his way to best of my knowledge and ability!

[Sadiq]

>
>This has gotten very long.

This is what i was about to say....

>Do the readers here all agree
>that John does not talk about Muhammad?

ill let the readers decide...

>By the way, NEVER quote Meherally. He refuses to change his
>articles and site even when he's proven wrong. Is that not
>deceptive?
>
>JBJ

Regarding the 'shia' acpect, here are some links that should help you, am in a hurry, so excuse me for any wrong or not working links;

>http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/shia.htm

>http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/shia_rule.htm

This is for now, maybe later. This is locked for the number of replies.

Sadiq

[Muntazir]

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Rahim

As salaamun 'aleykum

Sister Rasha:

"all religions are from God... the same God..."
"if you really studies islam with an open mind..."
"I am sure you will find in it peace and satisfaction."

Sister, you have a great speech, a gift from Allah (s.w.a), no doubt! But you have mistaken somewhere which you seriously need to correct yourself.

JBJ writes:

Hi Rasha,

I've been told shia Muslims do not accept Bukhari. True?

Rasha replies:

I have no clue what the Shia believe!! Shia are a sect not the main stream of muslims... I do not like to study their weird customs much. I do not think this is true though....

I know shia are sects too... so.. well my only contact with a shia was during highschool and she i think accepted most of the hadith.. i'm not sure if it is from Bukhari or not!

Allah knows best... I do not like to study weird sects as they are just a headache... i love the prophet and stick to his way to best of my knowledge and ability!

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Rahim

If you have no clue to what Shi'a believe, then why don't you study them so that you could get to know a little truth about a sect which is the 2nd most largest sect in Islam? Sunni being the largest doesn't make them the main stream, does it? I'm not pointing at oneone here, I'm just asking you to study about Shi'as so that you could get the truth about the followers of Imam Ali (a.s) who was the cousin of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.w). Or is it that you don't have any books on Shi'as? You could find them anywhere these days.

Shia's don't have weird costums, they are based on proper authentic traditions of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.w), Imam Ali (a.s) who was chosen to be the first leader by the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.w) on various occassions in Ghadir e Khum, and the Ahlal Bayt. If you have any problems with these topics, I suggest you read some authentic books written by great Shi'a scholars as non of the Sunni scholars would want to accept the truth even though the proofs are there in all the Sunni books.

As for the authencity of the Hadithes, not all Sunni hadithes are true, and according to some Scholars, not all Shi'a hadithes are true as well. However, Ayatullah Allamah Tabatabai (Author of Tafseer ul al-Mizan) said all the hadithes collected in Bihaar ul Anwar are perfectly fine! He was a great scholar (may Allah (s.w.a) reward him for all that he has done for the Muslims) and a person like him, it could be impossible for us to compare the knowledge of understanding the hadithes.

If you have a headache in studying other sects (weird sects as you say), then how can you love the holy Prophet (s.a.w.w) and follow him? You are completely wrong my dear! The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.w) knew and studies all types of different sects, languages, etc. And mind you, Shi'a is not a weird sect, it's a sect of Imam Ali (a.s) Sunni's fourth khalifa. Most importantly, the Prophet's (s.a.w.w) cousin.

Bukhari states, the prophet was with some of his companions when Ali passed by, he then said, see that man, his shi'as are going to occupy a great place in the heaven and are going to be successful.

Now, do you still ignore?

Sheikh Abdul Baset, a hafize Qur'an and a great reciter after his death came to his son's dream and said, "Go to Ali and obtain his successorship". Why? Why did he say that? What was so bad in Sunnism that he asked him to accept Shi'a? Think...!

At the end of the day, we are nobody to judge, but what is given to us as a proof, is the reality.

Was salaamun 'aleykum warahmatullah

[Muntazir]

Sorry for the spelling mistakes.

[Netcurtains3]

I think she means weird in the sense that
so many Iranians live here because they
are afraid to go back home.

[tbahrain]

Should have stayed back and die a true patriot like President Saddam.

Have a local proverb, translated it means "It rains gold in other country and hail stones in our country but our country is still better."

tbahrain