Disputing the 'Divinity' of Jesus

[Om_Mohammed]

BismAllah Alrahman Alrahim

Let us please look to the following verse from the bible:

‘We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.’ John 1:14.

Also:

‘No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.’John 1: 18

According to the language of the bible, it is understood from these two verses that the phrase or title ‘the One and Only’ is referring to Jesus. It is by not only the description of the words ‘the One and Only’, but as well as the use of capitals in that title, which defer the impression of the divinity of the one being referred to, i.e., Jesus.

This practice is totally unacceptable to Islam, for in Islam, we are taught to eminate reverence of divinity to the One and Only, i.e., our Creator, i.e. God, i.e. Allah…and not to any of his creation. Jesus was a man, a product of mankind, through the grace and permission of his Creator. He was a man, the son of man (meaning ‘human’ and not ‘male’), and not a divinity, but of divine command. The similitude of Jesus is comparable to any of us today, or if you wish a more comparable comparison, to that of Adam. Jesus was born of a mother, with no biological father. Adam was born of no biological father nor mother. Eve was created from the rib of Adam, therefore the ‘father figure’, with no mother. All, Jesus, Adam, Eve, and even you and me were created and permitted to come into existence by the grace and permission of our Creator. The One and Only.

‘The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: and he was. The Truth (comes) from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt.’ S. 3, v.59-60.

The challenge for those refusing the knowledge and insight of such revelation:

‘If anyone disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge hath come to thee, say: ‘Come! Let us gather together,-our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: then let us earnestly pray. And invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie! This is the true accounts: There is no god except Allah; and Allah-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise. But if they turn back, Allah hath full knowledge of those who do mischief.’ S.3, v.61-63.

Om Mohammed

[luque66]

Would Allah do anything that he dislikes? Or waiting for the muslims fight for him?

Allah as the most powerful of all.

Luque66

[luque66]

Would brothers in Islam cares one another?

Whatabout the mankind, would they care? What do you think that Allah wants us to be?

Would Allah be able to do it himself for whatever he wants?

As Allah is the most merciful and the most powerful...

Luque66

[Luque66]

Brother Asif,

You are very emotional. A person with Imaan wouldn't act recklessly but rationally.

If Allah feel what I am writing is so wrong, let him banned me from this site. But don't you want to see in another perpective in order for us to learn more?

Do not think Islam as one of those religions of customs and formal practice. Islam is what you think as the best thing to be done in order to achieve the best thing in our lives which is the living free from being scared, harmed, and living in easy ways, happy, advance with pride and dignity.

This is what Islam should be, or in fact all religion should be.

Luque66

[satisfaction26]

Assalamualaikum to all the muslims.
I'm new here.I like to answer those questions asked by Luque66 and try to make them clear.Firstly, would Allah do anything that He dislike? or wait for the Muslims to fight for him?
Whatever Allah does have nothing to do with His liking.There are reasons.He created plants and trees not just to beautify the Earth.In fact the fruits can be the source of food human and animals,and the woods can be made for furnishing.Trees can also provide shades for us and medcine can be obtained from plants.Allah never create anything without a reason.It is up to us to find out the importances and to realize how much He has given us.Therefore submit to Him only.And obey Him and leave what He forbade.For those who don't are those who He dislikes.And if they go over the limit well just wait for the punishments, as we can now see and hear in some countries.There is a reason too for this, as it makes the rest of us realize our mistakes and repent.
Next,Muslims do fight for Him but as martyrs,only in some circumstances.We are told to spread His religion in lenian ways.This forum is one of the ways.
Would brothers in Islam cares one another?
Yes,we are taught to do so but just like other religions there are disobedients.
What about the mankind, would they care?
Yes we do care.In wars the Muslims killed to stop the wrongdoers for they can spread their teaching for generations.And usually we fight when suffering torments from the non-muslims.
What do you think that Allah wants us to be?
To be successful in this world and the hereafter

Would Allah be able to do it himself for whatever he wants?
Yes He can.Whatever He does is to show His power that no other mankind can do.Nobody can create humanbeings who can think which is right and which is wrong.The least we can do is invent robots which need some controls.

[Luque66 (Guest)]

The way of your writing you describe Allah (God) as again like the 'King' of human type who is also have super power (or magical power) like what has been described for "Pharoah".

What I understand Allah is not even a bit like that.

The best creation from Allah is the relationship of Causes and consequences which is always fixed. The human has mind to choose to have the cause that leads to good or bad consequences.

Disaster or miracle is only subject to interpretation of the natural event whether the event / happening / occurence is in favor you will call miracle or against the favor you will call it disaster.

When human with the capacity of mind is able to control the natural event, he will divert the event or re produce it for the benefit of human itself.

Example is the existence of the heavy storm.

Before human has enough knowledge about the coming and the weigh of the storm, human always suffer a lot of loss. Today, the number of loss or damage are elliviated due to preparation knowing the storm coming. And one day, we will be able to make use of the storm for its energy may be for our transportation or anything.

What can we call about that storm. When it come and due to our lacking of knowledge, we suffer a lot of loss and damage, we call it disaster, but when it comes with our preparation to make use of it, we call it miracle.

What do you think about the purpose of that occurence when Allah (God) first create it?? Is it to punish or to help??

If we live and care about each other as the whole of mankind with respect of the individual differences regardless religion, custom, formal practice, we will have peace. If we live and hate each other without respect the individual differences, we will have fight and we live in fright or scared.

These are also the relationship between causes and consequences that created by Allah (God)

Think.


Luque66

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Good day to all others.

First of all, Luque: I would like to pose a question to you, in which I am desiring a straightforward answer. You have given the impression that you are muslim, yet you do not greet with the greetings of the muslims, which we have been commanded to greet one another with. Are you muslim, or what is your belief? It matters little to us what your faith actually is, but it would help in future conversations, to know exactly. Please answer this.

Secondonly...although we are mere humans, mere creatures within this vast creation, we do have a certain capacity for understanding and comprehending to an extent the level and existence of our Creator. He has been merciful enough to give us such guidance in His Book, the Quran. Naturally, such words are rather insignificant in comparison to His actual being, yet it is what we are capable of understanding. An example of some of the description that we have been given to have a simplest idea of our relation to Him, is as follows:

'Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god; the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah! (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.' s. 59, v.23.

You speak about the causes and consequences, and the imminent laws of nature, yes, that is also part of the creation. As for the intent of our Creator upon His creation of such causes and consequences, we can never fathom that, nor is it meant for us to completely understand. Only when signs are explicitly given to us to understand, are we expected to understand. For instance, man has been given extreme ability to seek and attain knowledge. Can you explain the reasons that some find it easier to attain such knowledge than others? That is something which is God-given. Perhaps one person struggles and fights with himself and the books, studies and applies himself quite hard, yet only get's barely by, while another only listens in class, and receives full marks. That seems rather unnatural, but it is a God-given talent. Also, the achievements that have been made in medicine. You have mentioned man's ability to control such things of nature as a storm. Well, consider bacteria and viruses. At first, when it was discovered how to treat diseases with certain antibiotics, it was a seemingly miracle, that man had finally attained a level of understanding and knowledge to be able to contain and have 'power' over such unseen menaces. They (the bacteria and viruses) are a part of nature, the laws of nature, much as a severe storm. Yet, it has developed of recent years, that many of those same bacteria and viruses have developed an unforseen immunity to the 'miracle' drugs that limited their lives, and have now developed into what has been termed as 'super-bugs', not being affected at all by the various drugs which were developed to fight them. Now...what is this? A man-made disaster, or something of nature? Or a combination thereof? If man was actually so bright and thinking to begin with...why did he not foresee such a possibility to begin with? Something (the bacteria, for instance) was created for a certain purpose...man intervened with his attained knowledge, and turned it into something else..and in the long run, Allah's power and original creation has shown thru, returning it to that which it was created for.

As for man living in harmony with his fellow man, yes, that is an admirable and desirable existence. However, remember that, in so many cases, people only receive in return what they have dished out to others. If you are receiving hostility from people, try to examine your own broadcast...for perhaps and almost for certain...you are only receiving that which you have shown to others. Also, in cases of oppression, such as in Palestine/Israel at the moment, it is only natural that harmony cannot exist, nor peace, for it is unnatural and against Allah's command and desire that oppression exist. Regardless if that oppression is upon the muslims or anyone. Allah hates oppression. It is stated so in the Quran.

Thankyou for reminding us to think...most of us do.

Om Mohammed.

[satisfaction26]

Assalamualaikum Warahmatullahi wabarakhatu.
Thanks Om_Mohammed for elaborating and gave more details.I agree with you.I'm not so good in English and sometimes it's hard to express what I think and feel.And I hope anybody could help me cus I don't to be selfish with the knowledge I have.:-)

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum.

Satisfaction: Thankyou for your comments. Your English is quite well, and you have a good way of expressing things that many of us do not have. Please do continue to share here. I encourage others who are waiting in the wings, only viewing the discussions going on, to participate, as well.

Each individual has been endowed with varrying insight than others. Perhaps I myself or others will show you something or explain something in a way that you never thought of, or perhaps it is something that you were thinking of, but did not know how to express it. I am sure that the same in the opposite is true...that there are many who are not yet participating with us, whom, if they would share with us, would enlighten us to a new viewpoint, and fresh outlook to the situation at hand.

So, everyone, satisfaction included, please do enrich us with your posts and your viewpoints, and your understanding of the issues at hand, and your understanding of Islam.

Om Mohammed.

[Arshad]

>Assalamualaikum Warahmatullahi wabarakhatu.
>Thanks Om_Mohammed for elaborating and gave
>more details.I agree with you.I'm
>not so good in English
>and sometimes it's hard to
>express what I think and
>feel.And I hope anybody could
>help me cus I don't
>to be selfish with the
>knowledge I have.:-)

Salam Satisfaction....

Your English is good, don't worry. And you know, the fact that you are actually posting here and reading this message, shows that you can express yourself. There are many people who come to the site and just read, without posting anything. And Om Mohd has invited them to participate, I invite them also. It is best when many people are involved in a broad-minded discussion, so that the maximum appeal can be reached and people may learn much more.

Please continue your postings, they are very beneficial.

Best regards,
Sameer Arshad

[satisfaction26]

Thank you all of you.I do feel welcomed now.I'll try to post as many as I can.Well if I have the time.

[jcecil3]

Om Mohammed,

As a Christian, I am pleased that you correctly quote our Bible to show the divinity of Christ, rather than taking verses out of context to try to prove that our own Bible does not say that Jesus is divine. Thank you for respecting our belief enough to take our Scripture in context.

Christians do believe that Jesus became a man, as do Muslims. However, we do not believe that Jesus was created, like Adam. We believe that Christ is co-eternal and one in being with the Father. If you want a more detailed description of Trinitarian belief, see my response to "Who Invented the Trinity?" on this site. I do hope that my zealousness to try to explain this doctrine will not have me banned from the site, or have my writings deleted. I write in the hope of promoting mutual understanding.

I have a question for you, and it is the question that lead me to come to this site. You quote something that implies Muslims should pray for curses on Christians. Elsewhere on this site, and in my own reading of the Koran, there seems to be justification for hating or killing Christians. Yet, other vereses of the Koran demand respect for the people of the Book and command no compulsion in religion.

As one who would pray a curse on Christians who believe in the divinity of Jesus, do you feel the events of September 11, 2001 were justified? If so, how?

I admit that Christians have committed acts of violence in the past (the inquisitions, witch burnings, and the crusades). These actions involved sin, and many of those who participated were morally wrong.

However, I believe that our own Scripture and Traditions provide the argument against fundamentalist Christians or traditionalist Catholics who might believe that violence is permitted in the name of religion. Violence was not permitted by Jesus as a means of expanding the gospel.

I am aware that there are moderate and even liberal Muslims who believe that violence against Christians is not warranted by the Koran or the Prophet (peace upon him).

Yet, you chose to quote a prayer for a curse upon us. Thus, I am very interested in your point of view about this. In your understanding of Islam, does Allah permit the killing of civilians (which even the crusaders considered morally offensive)? Does Allah permit suicide in his name (which I am not aware of any Christian practicing)? If so, can you explain why you think he permits this without simply appealing to verses of the Koran? Feel free to quote the Koran, but please offer your opinion as to what Allah is trying to say (for I can read the Koran myself (in English), and it has not yet convinced me).

I understand that your opinion cannot be taken for Allah's, or for all of Islam. Yet, I am very interested in your personal opinion, since you, personally, chose to quote a curse against Christians, and therefore, you may have more insight into what happened on September 11 than anyone else I can communicate with....Because without an explanaition, the act just strikes us Christians as pure evil, even if our (USA) military has done some wrongs. For us, it is always and everywhere wrong to commit suicide, and always and everywhere wrong to intentionally and willfully and purposefully kill civilians. In any war or sanction, civilians will likely die, but Christians believe it is wrong to aim a weapon excusively at civilians. We admit we were wrong and sinned when we have done that. What do you think about suicide raids on civilians?

[vancouver]

I am surprised that your well set out post has not been replied to. Did you try to go through the email arrangement for an answer.

God has always wanted us to pray for our enemies and for those that persecute us. A God of Love would not want any of us to have bad feelings about others to the extent of wishing evil upon them. Prayers are for positive comments about others and the only negative comments would be our own dissapointments in falling short of pleasing God.