View Full Version : Explanation of 3rinity?
Salam to all!
May i thank all of those who have improved this wonderful site to make it more wonderful. I hope everyone enters the polls and remember the red thing, when voting (:))...
I would just like to post this thread, which i posted quite a while back.. and someone tried to explain it to me, but they could not. Now as a certain member, posted an article 'explaining trinity'. I hope they help me with this statement, which i recieved by e-mail.
Now i dont want any, of those examples,..... you have the orange, the skin, but they are one. Its like saying, there are 3 planets but its called earth, confused, you should see me...
So i hope someone could explain it to me....(hope u dont mind the last few words on the paragraph, everyone is entitled to their opinonSS...)
"Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third. Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after. Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two. So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God. According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two. Nothing ever was, nothing ever can be more perfectly idiotic and absurd than the dogma of the Trinity."
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Sadiq
'Umar ibn al-Khattab, in one of his famous sayings said "Judge yourselves before you are judged, evaluate yourselves before you are evaluated and be ready for the greatest investigation (the Day of Judgement)"
:) good one akhee...
I too have tried over time to understand the concept... and these examples they tell me confuses me more than anything... the apple and egg and what not!!
hope we'll get some takers and someone who finally can. Sadly one person when i asked about the trinity said to me after trying to explain it...."The holy Ghost has not come upon you so you wont get it"
well too bad... I'm sure Allah or God if they want wouldn't send a religion that only some could understand.... it won't be fair anyways.
anyways this is off topic... good thread in my opinion.
salam
A very 3 rated thread...
Now as the sister said, i have also experienced such sayings, as ;
" You have to be a christian to experience it"
" You have live like a christian to see trinity" and many other statements as such..
Now this is ok, for them...but my answer to these christians, is that, you dont have to be a muslim to know allah, you dont have to be a muslim to know the great leader, teacher, fighter, father, muhammad, you dont have to be a intelligent person or a extra spiritual monk to understand the words of the prophet and the sahabahs, you dont have to be a rich or poor person to reflect upon the quran and many other things similar....
So i hope christians, try and explain the above paragraph and enlighten us to the third level, or is it that i have to be a christian for one day to experience it.?...
BinZiad
:)
no responce...like it though ;)
Netcurtains
13-03-2002, 22:59
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 13-03-02 AT 11:56 PM (GMT)]hi,
yes, amusing.
However, assuming you are slightly serious and would like some one to attempt to explain trinity to you logically; here is a bash at it.
My problem is, I know the Qu'ran says the Torah and Gospels contain the word of God what I don't know are the bits Qu'ranists accept as Gods word and the bits they do not. I guess the Torah is probably more to Muslims liking then the Gospels - just a guess.
Please Try and Go With the Logical Flow to the End:
================================================== =
First off, don't think of three aspects of God if this puts your head in a tis, think of just two.
From the Torah it is clear that God made people and he made people in his/her own image (genesis).
Point one arising from this is that God can look like a human being. Point two arising from point one is that a being that looks like a human being cannot be everywhere at once, this aspect of gods shape cannot be "almighty". This leads one into accepting that there must also be another aspect of God that is not of the human form.
So we have two aspects of God. The all powerful creator of everything and the other aspect of God that is of human form. This is the conclusion that Genesis seems to point to.
So God makes us and an aspect of God looks like us. It would seem LOGICAL that this 'human form' aspect of God would want to inter-relate with us from time to time. Indeed the human aspect of God would appear to like a WALK and have a chat with Adam and Eve from time to time (genesis).
So after man kinds fall from grace what is this 'human form' aspect of God going to do. He still will like a chat as its part of his nature. He still will like to walk in the cool of the morning as its in his nature.
The next we hear of a human aspect of god is someone called by the Jewish people as a messiah. Apparently the Messiah’s task was to reconcile the entire world to God. The Messiah was to be as a "light to the Gentiles" to open the eyes of those who dwelt in a land of spiritual darkness (Isaiah 9:1-3; 42:5-7; 60:1-3). Yep it seems logical that this god chap would want to interrelate with the entire planet - not just the Jewish people.
Is Jesus this Messiah? Well it is clear that he is the ONLY person in the entire history of the globe who has some claim to that role. I'm not saying Jesus is the Messiah but I am saying if there has been a Messiah then Jesus is the only realistic candidate. Logically if Jesus was not the Messiah then one would have to assume that god does not actually exist (at least the god of the Jews, Christians and Muslims).
The THIRD aspect of god is much more confusing but I'll leave you with two bible quotes:
"...and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. The God said "Let there be light!" Genesis Chapter 1 v1-v7
"Then Jesus, when he was baptised, came up immediately from the Water; and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
If Jesus is not the Messiah then there is no god - IMHO.
The Nicean Creed "Light From Light". There are Three Primary Colours that make all other human colours.
ohh Ta'ala Allah amma yasefoon!!
SubhanaAllah!!
this is sad.... u know what it sounded like to me.... its like saying... i'm a lady... but half of me is a man so... every now and then i feel like being a man so i be... then i go back to being a woman!! SubhanaAllah!!
Listen dear... God is the Almighty... he can't be like us in anyway. Just cause we are created in the form of God... doesn't mean God has an eye like our eye, or an ear like our ear... etc. God has a hand, how does his hand look like?? we don't know! When it says we are created in the form of God... it means, God had a hand, we have a hand too... etc. Not meaning we look like him .. i.e. his hands, ears, etc are not necesarily like ours.
Secondly... you make God seem very very very pathetic AstaghferoAllah!!
God doesn't get bored.... god doesn't need to walk or talk or whatever... he doesn't need us. PERIOD!
God might want to talk to the angels or whatever He wishes... but He is not as low as we are!! He doesn't have the stupid feelings we have. He doesn't get tired, he doesn't get bored... etc!!!!
the "human like" cannot be God in anyway....
Ta'ala Allah amma yasefoon. I feel seriously sad to know you worship a god who has half of him like you... if a third of god is like us.. then a third of God is sinful, half of god is "created in sin" as the bible claims!!
SubhanaAllah...
Alhamdulillah ala ne'emat al islam.
LivingforChrist
14-03-2002, 05:09
ok, i think some of you, based on some comments, are expecting me to respond and I am more than happy to.
NEtcurtains,
I am very very happy and somewhat surprised to read your very good udnerstanding of the trinity.
But i'll see if i can simplify and clarify a little bit for everyone else
God is not PART of a trinity, God is made up of the trinity.
Think of the trinity as three dimensions. Because all living things are three dimensional.
We all know that one dimensional and two dimensional objects cannot intereact with us beyond the point of us initiating contact with them.
This shows that God must be a trinity in order to interact with his creation and in order to be a living being.
The trinity itself is not 3 seperate parts that add together to make a God or God-head.
Instead it is kind of like 3 different CHARACTERISTICS of ONE God. Now The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not characteristics, but for the lack of a better word off of the top of my head characteristics will have to do.
My main point is that it is not three seperate entities but instead it is 3 dimensions of a living God.
If Allah is not a trinity, and therfore not 3 dimensional, how can he interact and influence his creation?
Very good replies from everyone...
Peacce too all memmberrrss...
Just want to comment that, jesus is god or part of god, in your religion, then did 'he' commit sucide for every person on earth?
You said, this is a way god comes to us, communicates with us, but how do you know? why?....god can communicate the way he wants, when he wants and how he wants, so to say beacause he wants to 'comfort' us, is something strange, how can you say god is this and that... just to please your mind...if god says he has hands, does not mean, he has five fingers...?
Now the three dimensions or anything of such is a way 'you' try to explain it, but the simple sayings such as, why would god be a man, god eating like us, how can the creater be inside the creation...just makes you 3 thingy go away
Got to go..getting late....i want others to reply too....
hmmm....
well....I guess that still doesn't make me understand how the trinity works..... cause...
take for example... if i say my computer is a device that plays music, picture, and does other things. So that means... my compute is made up of parts that do these functions. So if ur saying God is man, ghost and also God.... then ur saying God is made up of three parts.. each is different. So then ur saying God is one of the parts of trinity or whatever.
this is not logical. Cause God is unique..... because if he is not, then we need him not!! If i come to you and say...hey I'm god... I think it would be stupid for anyone to believe me.... cause... i'm just a human being. I sleep, i use the washroom, i eat, i drink, i go crazy somedays.... u never know!! This is why God cannot have any of our characteristics.
Like my brother said.... three dimentional explanation to me is just like apples and eggs and what not. gets me even more confused!! What if God is 4 dimentions. :D
See.... 2 dimentions are non living things (board, drawing, etc) and living things and also non living things are 3 dimentional (pen, computer, chair, toilet) thus just for argument sake...say God is above all that and is more than 3 dimentions. How do we Human beings with our limited brain capability understand that!! We can't! God is beyond the ability of our minds to understand his form or how he exactly looks.
The God I worship....is God beyond all bounds.... he does what he wants... even if its not natural for us. If he wants to be 1 dimention and wants to interact with us.. then so shall it be!! Allah can do what he wants whichever way he wants it. It might seem illogical to me.... but this doesn't make it wrong. Just because our minds can't understand it doesn't make it false. Look at science... there are topics that seem impossible... its all hypothesis.... do we say no its wrong? Then if Allah says I am God and beyond your thinking or understanding and nothing is like me... then we accept it. We are not told how God is.... or how many dimentions or whatever...who gives us rights to make hypothesis about God??!!
Peace to all!
Now I touched upon this issue, just wanting, ‘how’ or what stages you go to explain your belief.
Now we went to other levels here, and brother who started this, asked one of you, (i.e. those who follow such a thing) to explain it. I saw someone else try and explain it here, but they failed.
You can explain it using dimensions or such things, but again the question lies, why do you put jesus in such a position? There was once a scholar, who told me that, how can Christians have the picture of jesus? The Kodak camera came long after him, it is just a typical man with blonde hair with blue eyes, how did they do such a thing?
Now I have put the paragraph in sections, so those who love this thingy should be able to explain it…
1)
>
"Christ, according to the faith, is the second person in the Trinity, the Father being the first and the Holy Ghost third.
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2)
>
Each of these persons is God. Christ is his own father and his own son. The Holy Ghost is neither father nor son, but both. The son was begotten by the father, but existed before he was begotten--just the same before as after.
>
3)
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Christ is just as old as his father, and the father is just as young as his son.
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4)
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The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but was equal to the Father and Son before he proceeded, that is to say, before he existed, but he is of the same age as the other two.
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4)
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So it is declared that the Father is God, and the Son and the Holy Ghost God, and these three Gods make one God.
5)
>
According to the celestial multiplication table, once one is three, and three time one is one, and according to heavenly subtraction if we take two from three, three are left. The addition is equally peculiar: if we add two to one we have but one. Each one equal to himself and to the other two.
>
Now I have put the points into 5 sub-sections. Now I did this to help you make us ‘experience’ such a trinity thing. As many have said, we (muslims) don’t believe if there is three gods in one, or 3 things in one god. I hope you explain the above….enlighten us.
Netcurtains
15-03-2002, 00:41
Jesus - waht did he look like?
One day we might know. A telescope pointed to space. There will be a reflective substance 1,000 light years away. We will literally be able to see what happened on the earth 2,000 years ago. Jesus and Mohammed will both be visible to us.
Not sure why muslims get so confused by aspects of god. There are many aspects to me: I play soccer, I'm a dad, I'm an internet character, I was retail sport shop keeper for 7 years and now I'm a computer progammer. I have many aspects. Surely this is normal? What is the problem? Why can't god be the creator of the universe and also serve tea at Waterloo station? I don't see the problem?
Muslims don't get confused about aspects of God when its logical. IF you tell me... God is all powerful, God is the one who punishes...yet God is the most merciful... certainly these are characteristics... they don't confuse us... but when you try to make God into a human being that is not normal.
you said you can be a dad, a computer programer and play sports..yes.. all are human characteristics... but.. can you be a human, and be an ant at the same time???!!! If i come to you today and say... hey you know.. i'm a lady but at the same time.... during one stage of my life I was a dolphine! Would you believe me?? If you would... then this is sad...
THAT is what you try to do with trinity... you try to make God into something lower than him.... now I know God can do what he wishes... But God won't come to a lower level!! HE doesn't need to.
Now that is the problem... hope it is clearer now :D
Salam to all!!
Mashallah alot of replies...
Netcurtains....try and explain the paragraph, plz to attempt it...
You can be what you want, how you want? will i be able to know you more than you know yourself? tell me, you have blue eyes? YOU have it...now i dont know you, i cant see you, you can only tell me, what colour eyes you have, right? so...read these verses and find out, the most merciful, the one and only, powerful, most wise. He is not same or equal to anyone or anything. Read what the sister wrote, makes sense...
Say, "Had there been _ as they assert _ other gods besides Him, then those gods would certainly have struggled to approach the Lord of the throne. Glorified is He! Exalted and far above what they assert. (17:42-43)
And Allah proclaimed, "Do not accept two gods! Indeed, He is the only One God! So fear Me alone!" (16:51)
"Indeed, He _ Exalted and Majestic as He is _ did not (ever) take a mate or a son." (72:3)
Isn’t it He Who created the heavens and the earth? Doesn’t He send water down from the sky, and with it, does He not produce splendid gardens? You do not make any of its trees grow! Are there gods besides Allah? Of course not! They are a nation ascribing other beings as equal (to Allah)! (27:60)
Isn’t it He who made the earth a stable place, ran rivers across its surface, caused immovable mountains to rise high and laid a barrier between the two seas? Are there gods besides Allah? Of course not! Most of them do not know! (27:61)
Isn’t it He Who launched the creation (the first time)? Then, He will do it all over again! Isn’t it He Who (attends to your needs and) provides from the earth (below) and from the sky (above)? Are there gods besides Allah? Say, "Present your proof, if you are truthful!" (27:64)
Please someone try and explain the paragraph, and if this issue cannot be explained, then i thought the truth is always simple and it does not effect reason, but encourages it and agrees with it, so you 'claim' this is the true path, yet the basic thing cannot be even reached without falling in the way....
Sadiq (busy, so waiting more good replies)
More verses that should help anyone, even you netcurtains...
...........
"He is God; there is no god but He, He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God, there is no God but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (59:22-24)
"There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, neither sleep; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth; the preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious." (2:255)
"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him - (He is) above having a son." (4:171
.......................
Go on, explain to us, the paragraph, if you may...
Sadiq
Jazak Allah khair akhee Sadiq for the verses :D
May Allah help us always be on the right path. :)
p.s. just wanted to say... to all Christians... most of us here (muslims) are not here to argue... we all have at some point studied some christian doctrines and.... well... it just increased our faith in Allah.. cause we see the difference...we are not here to argue.. but to help those who have a will to truly find God... I mean if ur not interested u wo'nt even bother come here.
I personally find Christianity very fasinating for one reason.. there are proofs in it that makes me say "SubhanaAllah" (praised be Allah) for there are tones of proof that the bible is from the same God.. the ONLY God of the universe...
it is amazing... and when i read the biblical verses.... :) then I go read my Quraan.... its just different.... I can't even describe the difference. There is a thread about favourite quranic verses... :) Muslims you should join in... and Christians.... give it a try!
Netcurtains
15-03-2002, 08:46
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-03-02 AT 07:48 AM (GMT)]lol - I've read the verses.
Now I'm not a Muslim so I can read them in the way that they seem to me.
To me it reads like a MAN explaining to another man why god can only do this or do that but can't do something else.
In the Torah there is a book called JOB. I suggest you read it can then compare it to those above passages.
God is the Father of Mankind. God is the Son of Mankind. This is a perfect cycle. Sounds Cool. Perhaps too neat for me - I like a mess. I'll have to see if I can mess that concept up a bit.
:)
well here u go.... u are wrong. The reason you misunderstood the verses is urlack of knowledge in Arabic.
The arabic language has a unique style. In arabic, I can say things like:
"I am here." to refer to myself. I can also say: "We are here." to also refer to myself. and I can say: "Rasha is here" to refer to myself...and I can say: "She Rasha is here" etc. I'm not very knowledgable in the core concepts in Arabic but I know the basics. Indeed this is from the basics. So now if u read the verses again they will make more sense. The reason they were not changed when translated to english is because the quraan cannot be changed to suit our needs. We must adapt.
hope this clears up some stuff
LivingforChrist
16-03-2002, 08:16
it is funny that you say that God is all powerful and can therfore do whatever he wants, and yet you turn around and in your next paragraph say that God cant possibly be a trinity.
You say that I cant understand what God is capable of but then you say he cant possibly have three sides.
Stop contradicting yourselves!
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Greetings and good day to all.
MashaAllah...great active thread!!!
Now...to address the last comment in particular (and in retrospect all comments and the whole thread in general)...'living for christ'...if you truly want contradictions...then you need not seek any further than your own Bible and your own religion of christianity.
On one hand...christianity claims to worship only one God...yet on the other hand ... it couples three persons, or three dimensions...or three entities into one God, by terming the trinity itself. The trinity, in fact, is not even mentioned one time in the bible. And yet...the belief in the trinity is an intrinsic part of christianty...so intrinisic that non-belief in this ideal results in non-acceptance into christianity!!
Need more contradictions? Look to the bible...do I need to spell out the many contradictions for you? There are too many to be exact...and even if there were only one...it would raise the question of the validity of the source of that literature.
Now...please do not come back on the defensive against this claim...for it is truly not meant to be an offensive against christianity nor against christians. More of a defense against your claim of the muslims' contradictionary behavior here.
As speaking from the voice of experience of once being a christian myself, and coming from the upbringing and teachings of christians, I can vouch for you that there is truly more truth and purity to islam than there is in christianity. I was truly dissatisfied, to say the least, with christianity before learning of islam...but not knowing nor comprehending that anything such as islam even existed for our benefit...I accepted and believed in christianity for that very reason...that it was the only thing that I knew that was comprehendably the only choice. Judaism did not fit the bill, nor did hinduism, nor bhuddism, nor the many other countless 'isms' of the world. But upon learning islam...the lights began to turn on at every corner...at every verse of the Quran that I read...and everything began to fit snugly into position, making sense now...out of the years of study and confusion that was presented to me on the platter of christianity.
There are many verses in the Quran refuting the christian claims of the trinity, as well as the acclaimed divinity of Jesus, as well as the false claims of Jesus being God's son. One such verse is as follows:
'For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.' s. 19, v. 92.
For a more comprehensive and complete understanding exactly of what this verse is in discussion of, refer to the previous as well as remaining verses to this verse, including s. 19, v. 88-96 or even further. It will give you more insight, inshaAllah as to what this particular verse is leading to.
Allah is the Almighty, truly...and surely, if need be...within His immense capacity to take a son...but as seen with this verse, not necessary, nor consistent with His immense omnipotence, nor within His need to take a son. We, as muslims, do not question His almighty power and ability to do anything...including to come into human form, if need be, on this earth...yet it is something unfitting for His very station in relation to us...for surely He is on higher ground and plane than we can ever imagine. It is truly unfitting to percieve that He has begotten a son...or that He would come in human form, as other humans, with the imperfections of the human form itself. He is far above that...truly the Almighty in every possible sense of the word.
I suggest to all the christians here at this site, and viewing these messages, that you research more...your own books (the bible) as well as the Quran...and see for yourself the many contradictions and questions raised by the bible itself...use some logic, as well as time counting and history in the process...to see for yourselves the truth that is not shown in the bible..but rather to find for yourselves the light shown to mankind by Islam. And this can only be found, inshaAllah, by using the original source for Islam, the Quran...not necessarily muslims themselves.
May Allah guide all to that which is best.
Lulua.
Netcurtains
16-03-2002, 10:49
Hi,
The Qu'ran says this: "'For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.' s. 19, v. 92"
Why?
It is consonant totally with my majesty (netcurtains) and my graciousness (netcurtains) to beget a son (in fact I have 2 and 1 daughter).
God (so Qu'ran and bible says) is in our image - whats wrong with Allah's graciousness and majesty - doesn't he like kids? Explain it to me - please?
I think the Qu'ran needs a final prophet to explain the explanation.
Netcurtains
16-03-2002, 17:01
so why are the Kings Of Saudi called Majesty and Gracious?
Come off it.
" His Majesty King Abdul Aziz" - put Majesty, Gracious and Saudi as search parms in google.
Om_Mohammed
16-03-2002, 17:06
Assalaamu alaikum warahmatAllahi wabarakaatu.
A great difference that I have noticed between muslims and christians is the extreme devotion that so many muslims have to their religion (more so than most christians who I have witnessed)...as well as a major inclination of the muslims to hold in great respect, as is demonstrated in the muslims' use of language in reference to God, as well as in reference to themselves in relation to God.
This is not intended as an insult, so please, my dear christian friends and visitors here, do not take it as so. If you are taking it as such, then you are mistaken in your interpretation of this as an observation from life experiences. It is also not intended as an all-round compliment upon muslims in general, for I will be the first to admit that there is much wrong with the muslims today, and that there are a great number of muslims in the world who are not practicing their religion in a daily manner as it should be.
However, I must raise an argument against Netcurtains here, something which has been brought to my attention by some of the members of this site, and some in complaint against some of the arrogant intonations implied by Netcurtains. As I am not the moderator of this forum, I am not taking it upon myself to take action against you as per say at this moment, Netcurtains. But consider yourself duly warned, that an action may very well be taken against you momentarily by the moderator of this particular forum, or perhaps the administration (which, by the way, consists of Br. Tayeb and myself).
The case is still pending within the group of the moderators and administration, but let me remind you that you have apparently exceeded your limits here, according to our rules, in that there will be no tolerance of insults to Islam, or muslim personalities, or towards Allah. Your latest posting in this thread is to that extent.
Om Mohammed
A terrible thing of arrogance it is to assume such qualities of one's self as are attributed to our Creator. Particularly majesty and graciousness. And in particular to assume it of one's self and comment on it to others as well.
Allah's attributes are something unique to Him...although they are used with comparison to that which we are familiar with, so as to bring into some light some understanding of Him, in order that we can obey Him and keep ourselves in awe of Him.
But any such comparison of His attributes and qualities as is described by words common to man...does not mean that man actually attains or holds such qualities himself.
An even worse thing of arrogance is for one to attain or seek a position of authority on his/her own...for himself...for the mere recognition of that position of authority. Particularly for the naming of one's self 'king'.
Taken from hadith sahih al-bukhari:
Narrated Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His right hand and say, 'I am theKing: where are the kings of the earth?" '
Also taken from sahih al-bukhari:
Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Samura
The Prophet said, "O 'Abdur-Rahman! Do not seek to be a ruler, for if you are given authority on your demand then you will be held responsible for it, but if you are given it without asking (for it), then you will be helped (by Allah) in it. If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, thenyou should expiate your oath and do what is better."
================================================== ====================
Surely Allah knows best, and surely He guided His messenger to revealing His message, and he did so with true eloquence and perfectness of completion.
I seek refuge myself from seeking any such position of authority, and I seek Allah's help if any such position should come my way in the form of invitation or request by those in the position to do so. I pray that muslims shall return to the source of Islam, and follow their religion in the daily manner which was demonstrated to us by the most excellent of exemplers, prophet Mohammed (SAAW), and I pray also that those seeking the truth and peace shall be guided to it, and not to be led astray.
Ameen.
Lulua.
Netcurtains
16-03-2002, 17:35
I was quite happy for the kids to visit mosques as part of their religious studies but I'm not so sure now. Are they going to be called evil and shouted at when they go and they ask the wrong sort of questions?
WHAT?? The king called Majesty!! ugh!!
First of all...who calls that man majesty...that's silly! First of all... if any man is worth being called Majesty that would be the prophet ... and since the prophet was not called by that name... no man is worthy of it. secondly... who calls him that?? the english reporters???
seems that everything to you is google.com... u love that site too much don't you!
I don't think any true muslim would call anyone by these names except Allah!
Now, no one answered or explained the paragraph, is it something very 'hard' to explain or your belief is something very strange...
HERE IS SOME RESEARCH THAT I HAVE UNDERTAKEN, PLZ DO READ IT AND AND REFLECT...
Here are some scripture verses that show there is only one God and not three Gods:
Mark 12:29- And Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is, hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord:...
Eph 4:5-6- One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in you all.
1Tim 2:5- there is one God,..
James 2:19- Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:...
Deut 6:4- The Lord our God is one Lord.
Gal 3:20- God is one.
Mal 2:10- Have we not all one Father? hath not one God created us?
Mark 12:32- And the scribe said unto him, well, master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:...
1Cor 8:4- there is none other God but one.
1Cor 8:6- But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1John 17:3- And this is life eternal, that they might know thee(the Father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
JESUS IS THE WAY TO GET TO GOD
John 14:6- Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Eph 2:18- For through Christ we both have access by one spirit unto the Father.
Jesus is not God, but he is the only way to get to the Father, who is Almighty God!
JESUS WAS SENT INTO THE WORLD BY GOD
John 3:17- For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
1John 4:9- God sent his only begotten son into the world, that we might live through him.
1John 4:14- the Father sent the son to be the saviour of the world.
John 5:24- He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life.
John 6:38- For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 7:16- My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 8:42- If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceedeth forth and came FROM GOD; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 14:24- the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 17:3- And this is life eternal, that they might know thee THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ, who thou hast sent.
John 17:25- O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Jesus is not God, but he was sent into the world by the Father who is the only true God!
Take a good hard look at John 17:3 and you will see for yourselves that Jesus declared that the Father is the only true God!
NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD
Exo 33:20- And he said, thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
1John 4:12- No man hath seen God at any time.
John 1:18- No man hath seen God at any time.
John 5:37- And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Jesus cannot be God, because the scriptures teach that no man has seen God at any time.
JESUS IS THE IMAGE OF GOD
Col 1:14-15- In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God,...
2Cor 4:4- In whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them wich believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
John 14:9- he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
Phil 2:5-6- Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
Heb 1:1-3- God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the the brightness of his glory and THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON,...
Jesus is not God, but he is the splitting image of the Father, who is God!
CAN GOD DIE?
John 19:33- when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already,...
Mark 15:37- And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
How could he have died on the cross? Can God die? Of course God cannot die! It is so ludicrous for the trinitarians to teach that God the son died on the cross, because it is impossible for God to die.
CAN GOD FORSAKE HIMSELF?
Mark 15:34- My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
If Jesus is God, co-equal with the Father, then he was forsaken by himself on the cross!
CAN GOD BE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS?
These scripture verses show that Jesus was lower than the angels:
Heb 2:7- Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;..
Heb 2:9- But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death,...
Ps 8:5- For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,...
Can God be lower than the angels? Of course God cannot be lower than the angels! It is absolute lunacy for the trinitarians to teach that Jesus was 100% God when the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was lower than the angels.
> I will post more soon.....little time...and i hope words used by members are 'with' the rules put by IWC. netty, you havve been warned, at least remember ONE thing, you are at a islamic site, so obey the rules..
If you cant accept that your trinity 'dont' make sense then, who knows? Stay like that and inshallah allah will guide, the only one.
BinZiad
kids are different!!
In Islam kids are treated in a special manner.... they can ask.. if they have manners which most kids do!! I do not think ur kids would say to the people in the mosque... "I am the Majesty Monica!!" unless ur kids would...in which case i think u shouldn't take them to a mosque!!
If your kids are like the majority of kids...asking about hijab (head scarf), prayers, why we do certain things, why we pray certain way, why we eat specific types of food and not others.. i don't think anyone will find this offensive... besides kids shouldn't be yelled at for asking questions!
I deal with many kids as i do lots of work with educating the young.. i've been asked all sort of questions... that range from really innocent to really silly to questions that i won't answer simply cause they can't understand it!! I do not recal having to yell at any kid!!
you on the other hand is beyond childhood... ur an adult.. you should be able to speak with manners and ask ur questions without being sarcastic and making fun of other people's faith!!
This place is for those who wish to learn about islam... or ask questions not for those who are here to mock!
Just an addition to clarify the meaning of being a ruler in an islamic state...
Omar ibn al khattab, one of the best companions of the prophet, one who was told he shall enter paradise, known for his piety and fear of Allah...said once... to be a leader means to be in the service of the people!!
When Omar was the leader, he considered himself responsible for every person, every child, every visitor, and every animal that lives in the islamic nation!! ALL OF IT!!
He would go walk at night, see what the people are doing, cook for the poor... THAT was a leader!!
He refused to eat from anything that any muslim cannot eat either!! One of his friends brought him a gift once... and Omar refused and when asked why he said: "Do all the muslims eat this?" His friend said... the ones who have the money can afford it... and Omar replied..."I do not eat of anything that any muslim cannot eat!" He was so humble and didn't want to be better than anyone. He loved for his brothers what he loved for himself. THAT is a Muslim leader!!
A leader who was taught in the school of Mohammad peace be upon him!
If you want more on the biogoraphy of Omar I can translate more from the book i'm reading (inshaAllah). Just let me know if u are interested.
Netcurtains
16-03-2002, 19:24
Hi,
get yourself a dictionary. Look up words:
ASPECT: "a look, direction facing, appearance prsented".
HOLY TRINITY:"Triune God of Orthodox Christians".
TRIUNE:"Three In One".
You seem to love looking at Bible contradictions. Lets give it a rest for a while and lets put the Qu'ran under the light for a change? seems fair?
I have a list of some "possible" Qu'ran contradictions. I know this is boring but just for a change can you shed some light on them:
"Internal Contradictions:
Bad Arthmetic: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.
How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21.
Further numerical discrepancies Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 human years (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 human years (Sura 70:4)? --- How many gardens are there in paradise? ONE [as stated in 39:73, 41:30, 57:21, 79:41] or MANY [18:31, 22:23, 35:33, 78:32]? --- According to Sura 56:7 there will be THREE distinct groups of people at the Last Judgement, but 90:18-19, 99:6-8, etc. mention only TWO groups. --- There are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11], THE angels (plural) [47:27] but also "It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death." [39:42]
Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]. But Gabriel had 600 wings. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455]
How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad? One day [54:19] or several days [41:16; 69:6,7]
Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.
Quick or Slow Creation? Allah creates the heavens and the earth in six days [7:54] and many Muslims want to be modern and scientific, and make that six eons, but then again, He creates instantaneously [2:117], "Be! And it is".
Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].
Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.
What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]
Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach reach him [32:5, 70:4].
The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?
How merciful is Allah's mercy? He has prescribed mercy for himself [6:12], yet he does not guide some, even though he could [6:35, 14:4].
Will there be inquiry in Paradise? "neither will they question one another" [23:101] but nevertheless they will be "engaging in mutual inquiry" [52:25], "and they will ... question one another" [37:27].
Are angels protectors? "NO protector besides Allah" [2:107, 29:22]. But in Sura 41:31 the angels themselves say: "We are your protectors in this life and the Hereafter." And also in other suras is their role described as guarding [13:11, 50:17-18] and protecting [82:10].
Is everything devoutly obedient to Allah? That is the claim in 30:26, but dozens of verses speak of the proud disobedience of Satan [7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74, 18:50] as well of many different human beings who reject His commands and His revelations.
Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur'an seems seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71]. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin.
The event of worship of the golden calf: The Israelites repented about worshipping the golden calf BEFORE Moses returned from the mountain [7:149], yet they refused to repent but rather continued to worship the calf until Moses came back [20:91]. Does Aaron share in their guilt? No [20:85-90], yes [20:92, 7:151].
Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? "Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick" [37:145] "Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate." [68:49]
Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].
Can slander of chaste women be forgiven? Yes [24:5], No [24:23].
How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].
Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: "And behold, we said to the ANGELS: 'Bow down to Adam'. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty." [2:34].
Three contradictions in 2:97 and 16:101-103 Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? The ANGEL Gabriel [297], or the Holy Spirit [16:102]? The new revelation confirms the old [2:97] or substitutes it [16:101]? The Qur'an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.
The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: "It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, ... in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets)." Now, the 'earlier writings' are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur'an be contained in books of other languages? Furthermore, it would have to contain this very passage of the Qur'an since the Qur'an is properly contained in them. Hence these earlier writings have to be contained in yet other earlier writings and we are in an infinite loop, which is absurd.
"An old woman" and God's character About the story of Lot: "So we delivered him and his family, - all exept an old woman who lingered behind." [Sura 26:170-171] And again: "But we saved him and his family, exept his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. [Sura 7:83]. Either this is a contradiction or if indeed Lot's wife is derogatorily called "an old woman" then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.
More problems with the story of Lot "And his people gave NO answer but this: They said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" [Sura 7:82 & 27:56]. Yet: "But his people gave NO answer but this: They said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." [Sura 29:29]. Obviously these answers are different.
The "pleasure" of Allah? Is God's action of punishment or mercy and guidance or misguidance arbitrary?
Did Abraham smash the idols? The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").
What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns.
Was Noah driven out? "Before them *the people of Noah* rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, 'Here is One possessed!' And he was driven out." [Sura 54:9] Now, if he is driven out [expelled from their country] how come they can scoff at him while he is buiding the ark since we read "Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of *his people* passed by him, they threw ridicule on him." [Sura 11:38] He cannot be both: Driven out and near enough that they can regularly pass by.
Pharaoh's repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented "in the sight of death" and was saved. But Sura 4:18 says that such a thing can't happen.
Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:65. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!
Guiding to truth? "Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed ...?" [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, ..." [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah's categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?
What is the punishment for adultery? Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2], "confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women) [4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16]. 24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4. And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?
Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say "Yes", Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say "No".
God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech." [16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah." [3:7]. Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]
Was Pharaoh Drowned or Saved when chasing Moses and the Israelites? Saved [10:92], drowned [28:40, 17:103, 43:55].
When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?
When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]
Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?
Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.
Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.
Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].
Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.
Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.
Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.
Did Jesus Die already? Surah 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).
One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.
"
LivingforChrist
17-03-2002, 02:32
Christians believe in ONE GOD. so all the verses you picked out mean nothing in contradicting the trinity at all. ONE GOD - THREE PARTS.
I have also noticed many false conseptions of Christianity here.
We dont believe ourselves to be mini-kings or whatever was said.
the only major differences between Islam and Christianity are the views on the Trinity, Jesus, the Bible, and how one gets to heaven.
everything else is either the same or extremely similar.
And to say that Islam, as a religion, is more devout than Christianity is simply not true. I think you will find in both religions, people who say they are "Christian" or "Muslim" but the religion means nothing to their lives but because they go to church or mosque once in a while and everyone else is that religion, they say they are too.
Netcurtains
17-03-2002, 10:20
WRONG WRONG WRONG.
lol (I hope you're not going to blow your stack on me too).
Read Revelations.
Chapter 1 V.5 to 6
"To him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and has made us Kings and priests to God and Father, to him be glory etc etc"
if you think I'm nuts then here is the links using google.http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&q=%22christians+are+kings%22&meta=
I bet you (unlike Servant_of_allah) have the good manners to apologise to me.
Your south london mate Netty (ps if you think us londoners are rude you're lucky no French Waiters or New York Cab drivers write here).
Netcurtains
17-03-2002, 14:25
I've asked a Jehovah's Witness mate of mine to put his case here against the Holy Trinity. He is no lover of the Catholic church either. I've noticed that some of you have put Jehovah's Witness links here and others of you have said its "a cool religion". So why not get the horses mounth so to speak?
I think many of you find it difficult to talk to me (perhaps its cultural). This man has some similiar hobbies to my own and comes from the same culture. His views are different my own.
We don't go around calling each other evil, bad mannered etc etc.
At present he is trying to get a log on but he has a super fast connection which appears to be giving problems linking to this site.
Netty.
vancouver
17-03-2002, 19:47
How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop? ***
How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?
AT THIS point you might ask: 'If the Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a doctrine of Christendom?' Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E.
That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.
Constantine's Role at Nicaea
FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.
Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians."
What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopaedia Britannica relates: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, 'of one substance with the Father' . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination."
Hence, Constantine's role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. "Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology," says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.
None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?
Further Development
AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.
That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom's Trinity began to come into focus.
Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: "The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology."
The Athanasian Creed
THE Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: "We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God."
Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. The New Encyclopaedia Britannica comments: "The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. . . . The creed's influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome."
So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: "The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics."
Apostasy Foretold
THIS disreputable history of the Trinity fits in with what Jesus and his apostles foretold would follow their time. They said that there would be an apostasy, a deviation, a falling away from true worship until Christ's return, when true worship would be restored before God's day of destruction of this system of things.
Regarding that "day," the apostle Paul said: "It will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed." (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7) Later, he foretold: "When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them." (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its 'lawless' clergy class.-See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4.
Paul also wrote: "The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths."-2 Timothy 4:3, 4, JB.
Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy, Satan, would oversow the field with weeds. So along with the first blades of wheat, the weeds appeared also. Thus, a deviation from pure Christianity was to be expected until the harvest, when Christ would set matters right. (Matthew 13:24-43) The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching." Where, then, did this deviation originate?-1 Timothy 1:6.
What Influenced It
THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.
Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."
Thus, in Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen of the late third and early fourth centuries, such as Athanasius, reflected this influence as they formulated ideas that led to the Trinity. Their own influence spread, so that Morenz considers "Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity."
In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."
A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith." And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan."
That is why, in the Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, James Hastings wrote: "In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahm"a, Siva, and Vi"s"nu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus . . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic view of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality," which is "triadically represented." What does the Greek philosopher Plato have to do with the Trinity?
Platonism
PLATO, it is thought, lived from 428 to 347 before Christ. While he did not teach the Trinity in its present form, his philosophies paved the way for it. Later, philosophical movements that included triadic beliefs sprang up, and these were influenced by Plato's ideas of God and nature.
The French Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel (New Universal Dictionary) says of Plato's influence: "The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher's conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions."
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge shows the influence of this Greek philosophy: "The doctrines of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who . . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied."
The Church of the First Three Centuries says: "The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; . . . it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; . . . it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers."
By the end of the third century C.E., "Christianity" and the new Platonic philosophies became inseparably united. As Adolf Harnack states in Outlines of the History of Dogma, church doctrine became "firmly rooted in the soil of Hellenism [pagan Greek thought]. Thereby it became a mystery to the great majority of Christians."
The church claimed that its new doctrines were based on the Bible. But Harnack says: "In reality it legitimized in its midst the Hellenic speculation, the superstitious views and customs of pagan mystery-worship."
In the book A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity: "We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy . . . The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists."
Thus, in the fourth century C.E., the apostasy foretold by Jesus and the apostles came into full bloom. Development of the Trinity was just one evidence of this. The apostate churches also began embracing other pagan ideas, such as hellfire, immortality of the soul, and idolatry. Spiritually speaking, Christendom had entered its foretold dark ages, dominated by a growing "man of lawlessness" clergy class.-2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7.
Why Did God's Prophets Not Teach It?
WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the latest, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to his servants for thousands of years, one that is an "inscrutable mystery" "beyond the grasp of human reason," one that admittedly had a pagan background and was "largely a matter of church politics"?
The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.
'Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.'-The Encyclopedia Americana
"The Triad of the Great Gods"
Many centuries before the time of Christ, there were triads, or trinities, of gods in ancient Babylonia and Assyria. The French "Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology" notes one such triad in that Mesopotamian area: "The universe was divided into three regions each of which became the domain of a god. Anu's share was the sky. The earth was given to Enlil. Ea became the ruler of the waters. Together they constituted the triad of the Great Gods."
[Box on page 12]
Hindu Trinity
The book "The Symbolism of Hindu Gods and Rituals" says regarding a Hindu trinity that existed centuries before Christ: "Siva is one of the gods of the Trinity. He is said to be the god of destruction. The other two gods are Brahma, the god of creation and Vishnu, the god of maintenance. . . . To indicate that these three processes are one and the same the three gods are combined in one form."-Published by A. Parthasarathy, Bombay.
"Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology."-A Short History of Christian Doctrine
Netcurtains
17-03-2002, 19:54
lol - I see you got your login then.
Well done.
Perhaps create a new thread with this information otherwise it will get lost.
Netty!
vancouver
17-03-2002, 20:04
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-03-02 AT 07:22 PM (GMT)]Jesus was God's Son in the sense that he was the first creation by God and became a master worker with God in the rest of the creation. See Proverbs chapter 8 :-
8 Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice? 2 On top of the heights, by the way, at the crossing of the roadways it has stationed itself. 3 At the side of the gates, at the mouth of the town, at the going in of the entrances it keeps crying loudly:
4 "To YOU, O men, I am calling, and my voice is to the sons of men. 5 O inexperienced ones, understand shrewdness; and YOU stupid ones, understand heart. 6 Listen, for it is about the foremost things that I speak, and the opening of my lips is about uprightness. 7 For my palate in low tones utters truth itself; and wickedness is something detestable to my lips. 8 All the sayings of my mouth are in righteousness. Among them there is nothing twisted or crooked. 9 All of them are straight to the discerning one, and upright to the ones finding knowledge. 10 TAKE my discipline and not silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than corals, and all other delights themselves cannot be made equal to it.
12 "I, wisdom, I have resided with shrewdness and I find even the knowledge of thinking abilities. 13 The fear of Jehovah means the hating of bad. Self-exaltation and pride and the bad way and the perverse mouth I have hated. 14 I have counsel and practical wisdom. I-understanding; I have mightiness. 15 By me kings themselves keep reigning, and high officials themselves keep decreeing righteousness. 16 By me princes themselves keep ruling as princes, and nobles are all judging in righteousness. 17 Those loving me I myself love, and those looking for me are the ones that find me. 18 Riches and glory are with me, hereditary values and righteousness. 19 My fruitage is better than gold, even than refined gold, and my produce than choice silver. 20 In the path of righteousness I walk, in the middle of the roadways of judgment, 21 to cause those loving me to take possession of substance; and their storehouses I keep filled.
22 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
32 "And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways. 33 Listen to discipline and become wise, and do not show any neglect. 34 Happy is the man that is listening to me by keeping awake at my doors day by day, by watching at the posts of my entrances. 35 For the one finding me will certainly find life, and gets goodwill from Jehovah. 36 But the one missing me is doing violence to his soul; all those intensely hating me are the ones that do love death."
Jesus there was personified by wisdom. It seems that Jesus volunteered as God's first creation and the one who would have had the most love for him to go to the earth as a human and give up his perfect life in exchange for the life that the first man Adam threw away. In fact he became a ransomer for the human race.
vancouver
17-03-2002, 20:11
Thanks netty. how does one go about doing that exactly. Guess you know who I am already.
vancouver
17-03-2002, 20:20
Regarding devotion. Most of those who admit to being Christian are in fact not Christian. The same holds true for Moslems also. Those who adhere to Christianity as Christ taught it are devoted as I am sure that those who adhere to the Islam faith are devoted. We must note that huge quantities of the world population profess Christianity or Islam but when we see the bloodshed and violent bahaviour on both sides we surely must realise that those who truly follow God(Allah) are clearly in the minority. This also holds true for Jews who also must share in the blame for a lot of inhuman behaviour in this modern world.
Netcurtains
17-03-2002, 21:02
I think you click the post button at the TOP of the BB. It doesn't always work - but I think because you have bought a WHOLE NEW dimension to this BB it is worth you creating a NEW THREAD. I know the trinity has been done to death but your thread will obviously be broader then just trinity (I guess).
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-03-02 AT 10:20 PM (GMT)]Dear vancouver:
Please read the rules of IWC. We don't allow preaching of other religions and it seems that's what you are doing with your post.
You may post and try to explain your thinking but the idea behind this Forum is the understanding between faiths, and not outright preaching of other faiths, but Islam. Are you trying to explain to Muslims saying that Jesus is god - Allah forbid?
The Moderators of this Forum should take up appropriate measures.
Netcurtains
17-03-2002, 23:28
lol - He is a Jehovahs Witness - you can't be more wrong!
Perhaps you should reread his mail before you start mouthing off (no offence but you have put your foot in it).
humour - such a hard thing to put over in typing -
Jehovahs Witness being accused of calling Jesus god - you've got to see the funny side of what you've just said.
;-)
vancouver
18-03-2002, 00:23
I cannot believe that I am being insulted already and by a person of a faith that I have the utmost respect for. I realise that one does not have to have a decent IQ to be in favour with God but one should realise that if they have such limitations in their brain power then they should make sure that they fully understand the person they intend to insult.
vancouver
18-03-2002, 00:39
I have just re-read post 37 again. All it says there is a brief explanation of a passage of scripture relating to Jesus' pre-human existence as an Angel in heaven and the fact that he was to be a ransom in exchange for Adam. The moslems I know have no problem at all with that. They know Jesus was the Messiah who came to give up his perfect human life. It clearly shows there that Jesus could never have been God. How could you have come to that conclusion. All I post are facts. I have never preached to anyone in my life and don't intend to start now. Everyone is entitled to live as they please but it is kinder to give them the facts and an insight to the probable consequenses of their actions.
Peace to all members!
As the sister said, about the creed and bible…., which one is correct?
So you say, you believe in the ‘three’ in one aspect, yet the bible, which is the ‘supps’ word of god, does not mention it?
So which one is correct, your book, or your ‘version’ of belief, or are they both wrong? You decide.
………………………
Now this is one verse that ‘you’ use or those who hold such a numbering belief use, which is John 5:7. I have produced some info, that should make you interested in your belief….read on..
“John 5:7- For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
You use John 5:7 as proof that God is a triune God, which is a very dishonest thing to do as John 5:7 has been proven to be incorrect and erroneous.
The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible:
(Vol 4...Pg. 711)
"The text about the three heavenly witnesses (John 5:7 KJV) is not an authentic part of the NT."
Eerdman's Bible Dictionary:
(Pg. 1020)
"John 5:7 in the Textus Receptus (represented in the KJV) makes it appear that John had arrived at the doctrine of the Trinity in explicit form ("the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost"), but this text is clearly AN INTERPOLATION since no genuine greek manuscript contains it."
So the thing that you use, cannot even help you, such a state to be in. The other thread cannot even help with an ‘atoms’ weight, so were to go, were to turn.
BinZiad
vancouver
19-03-2002, 15:40
The scripture you mention is actually 1John 5:7. The New world Translation gives the correct rendering:- "For there are three witness bearers". That is all verse 7 said. Now read it in context from verse 5 to verse 8 :-
5 Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three witness bearers, 8 the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.
The translations that mention three in one are guilty of allowing spurious additions that the Catholic church has admitted to in their encyclopedia. Jehovah's witnesses have adhered to the original translation which in no way suggests a trinity or that Jesus is equal to god.
This is a basic problem with translation of any piece of literature, and in particular religious literature...that much is lost, and even misinterpreted by the translation itself. Even any such termed 'original' translation. How 'original' can that actually be? Original 50 years ago? 500? just when and where was such an 'original' translation made...and by whom...with what credentials to back him/her (the translator) up?
This is a major difference between Islam and Christianity...Christianity...even Jehovah's Witnesses...are basing their religion and trust on translations...whereas Islam and muslims have within their daily reach...the original text of their Book of Guidance.
Lulua.
vancouver
20-03-2002, 11:57
We believe that the scriptures although written by about 40 men were inspired by God and as God wants people on the earth to know the truth he would make it accessible to as many as possible in the original meaning. We therefore have faith that the translaters have mostly been very careful . The dead sea scrolls have verified this and have shown that any discrepancies are so small(often just one letter occassionally)that it has been decided that the bible is virtually in its original state. This even applies to the King James Version which was one of the worst translations ever undertaken as it was rushed for the coronation of the King.
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