View Full Version : Polygamy
I confess to being very confused on the issue of polygamy in Islam. I understand that it is permitted, but if it is permitted, then why would Muslim women protest if their husband decides to take another wife? His obligation is to treat all of his wives equally, right? So as long as he fulfills that obligation, would she have any basis in Islam for protesting his action?
Peace to you,
Tita
Well, you know..... women!
I believe it is natural of any woman to object to her husband having another wife. This does not mean that her position is Islamically correct, but the husband has to care for his wife's feelings too.
And God knows best.
peace,
Hesham.
Are there some Muslims who believe that polygamy is not allowed?
>I confess to being very confused
>on the issue of polygamy
>in Islam. I understand
>that it is permitted, but
>if it is permitted, then
>why would Muslim women protest
>if their husband decides to
>take another wife? His
>obligation is to treat all
>of his wives equally, right?
> So as long as
>he fulfills that obligation, would
>she have any basis in
>Islam for protesting his action?
>
>
Marriage is a personal decision made between two people, sometimes more :). The same goes for a man who marries more than one woman. It can be that the woman simply does not want to have such a marriage. As men choose to marry more than one wife, women choose to marry such men and remain married to such men. Even the Prophets pbuh daughter Fatimah objected to her husband marrying another woman.. so it simply is a matter of choice on ones personal life.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
>Are there some Muslims who believe
>that polygamy is not allowed?
>
yes, although many would argue that such may not be true muslims. There are some who argue on the basis of Qur'an that polygyny was not the intent of marriage and that monogamy is preferred.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Greetings to all!!
After all that locking!!!> I wanted to help tita, a very good memeber similar to the sister who replied, and similar to most of the others.
About this issue, i will give you a link that should help you and i hope others here will also help.
This is the link>>
http://jamaat.net/ebooks/islaminfocus/Chapter5_2.html
DIRECT LINK TO BOOK; http://jamaat.net/ebooks/islaminfocus/
This is the article, from the book, 'Islam in Focus'.
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3. Polygamy (Plurality of Wives)
Strictly speaking, polygamy means the plurality of mates. More specifically, if a man has more than one wife at the same time, this is called polygyny. But since the average common reader makes no distinction between the two terms, they will be used here interchangeably. When we say polygamy in this context, it actually means polygyny in the proper sense of the term. On the other hand, if a woman has more than one mate, it is called polyandry. If it is a mixture of men and women, it is a group or communal marriage.
These three basic types of plural marriage have been more or less practiced by different societies in different ages under different circumstances. The most common pattern is polygyny; yet it is still necessarily limited to a very small minority of any given population for various reasons. This is the only pattern permitted by Islam. The other two, plurality of husbands (polyandry) and group marriages are absolutely forbidden in Islam.
However, it is not correct that Judaism and Christianity have always been monogamous or categorically opposed to polygyny, not even today. We are informed by some prominent Jewish scholars, e.g. Goitein (pp. 184-185), that polygynous Jewish immigrants cause the Israeli housing authorities a great deal of both difficulty and embarrassment. The position of the- Christian Mormons is well known. So is the view of Afro-Asian bishops who prefer polygyny to infidelity, fornication, and mate swapping. In the United States alone, mate swappers are estimated to number hundreds of thousands.
It will be revealing to examine the high correlation between strict formal monogamy and the frequency of prostitution, homosexuality, illegitimacy, infidelity, and general sexual laxity. The historical record of the Greek-Roman and the Jewish-Christian civilizations is even more revealing in this respect as any standard sociological history of the family will show.
Turning to the case of Islam we find many people in the Western world who think that a Muslim is a man who is possessed by physical passions and himself in possession of a number of wives and concubines, limited or unlimited. Many more among these people show a feeling of surprise when they see a Muslim with one wife or a Muslim who is unmarried. They believe that the Muslim is at full liberty to shift from one wife or a number of wives to another, and that this is as easy as shifting from one apartment to another, or even as changing one’s suit. This attitude is aggravated partly by sensational motion pictures and cheap paperback stories, and partly by the irresponsible behavior of some Muslim individuals. The inevitable result of this situation is that stationary barriers have cut off millions of people from seeing the brilliant lights of Islam and its social philosophy. And it is for such people that an attempt will be made to discuss the question from the Muslim point of view, after which anybody is free to draw his own conclusions.
Polygamy as such has been practiced throughout human history. It was practiced by prophets like Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon, etc.; by kings and governors; by common people of the East and the West in ancient and modern times alike. Even today, it is practiced among Muslims and non-Muslims of the East and the West in various forms, some of which are legal and some illegal and hypocritical, some in secret and some in public. It does not require much search to find out where and how a great number of married people maintain private mistresses, or stock spare sweethearts, or frequent their beloved ones, or simply go around with other women, protected by common law. Whether moralists like it or not, the point remains that polygamy is in practice and it can be seen everywhere and found in all ages of history.
During the time of Biblical revelations, polygamy was commonly accepted and practiced. It was accepted religiously, socially, and morally; and there was no objection to it. Perhaps this is why the Bible itself did not deal with the subject because it was then a matter of fact, a matter of course. The Bible does not forbid it or regulate it or even restrict it. Some people have interpreted the ten-virgin story of the Bible as a sanction for maintaining ten wives at a time. The stories of biblical prophets, kings, and patriarchs in this regard are incredible.
When Islam was re-presented by Muhammad the practice og polygamy was common and deeply-rooted in the social life. The Qur’an did not ignore the practice or discard it, nor did it let it continue unchecked or unrestricted. The Qur’an could not be indifferent to the question or tolerant of the chaos and irresponsibility associated with polygamy. As it did with other prevailing social customs and practices, the Qur’an stepped in to organize the institution and polish it in such a way as to eradicate its traditional evils and insure its benefits. The Qur’an interfered because it had to be realistic and could not condone any chaos in the family structure which is the very foundation of society. The benevolent intervention of the Qur’an introduced these regulations:
Polygamy is permissible with certain conditions and under certain circumstances. It is a conditional permission, and not an article of Faith or a matter of necessity.
This permission is valid with a maximum of four wives. Before Islam there were no limits or assurances of any kinds.
The second or third wife, if ever taken, enjoys the same rights and privileges as the first one. She is fully entitled to whatever is due to the first one. Equality between the wives in treatment, provisions and kindness is a prerequisite of polygany and a condition that Trust be fulfilled by anyone who maintains more than one wife. This equality depends largely on the inner conscience of the individual involved.
This permission is an exception to the ordinary course. It is the last resort, the final attempt to solve some social and moral problems, and to deal with inevitable difficulties. In short, it is an emergency measure, and it should be confined to that sense.
The Qur’anic passage relevant to the subject reads as follows:
If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans (whom you marry or whose mothers you take as wives for you), marry women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice (4:3).
The passage was revealed after the Battle of Uhud in which many Muslims were killed, leaving widows and orphans for whom due care was incumbent upon the Muslim survivors. Marriage was one way of protecting those widows and orphans. The Qur’an made this warning and gave that choice to protect the rights of the orphans and prevent the guardians from doing injustice to their dependents.
With this background it is apparent that Islam did not invent polygamy, and that by introducing the said regulations it does not encourage it as a rule. It did not abolish it because if it were abolished, that would have been in theory only, and people would have continued the practice as is observed today among other people whose constitutions and social standards do not approve polygamy, Islam came to be enforced, to be lived, to be practiced, and not to stay, in suspense or be considered a mere theory. It is realistic and its outlook on life is most practicable. And that is why it permits conditional and restricted polygamy; because had it been in the best interest of humanity as a whole to do without this institution, God would have certainly ordered its termination. But who knows better than He?
There is a variety of reasons for which Islam permits polygamy. One does not have to imagine such reasons or make hypotheses. They are real and can be seen every day everywhere. Let us examine some of these reasons.
1. In some societies women outnumber men: This is especially true of industrial and commercial regions, and also of countries that get involved in wars. Now if a Muslim society is in this category, and if Islam were to forbid polygamy and restrict legal marriage to one wife only, what would the unmarried ones do? Where and how would they find the naturally desirable companionship? Where and how would they find sympathy, understanding, support and protection? The implications of the problem are not simply physical; they are also moral, sentimental, social, emotional and natural. Every normal woman - whether she is in business or in foreign service or in the intelligence department - longs for a home, a family of her own. She needs some one to care for and some one to care for her. She desires to belong socially and familiarly. Even if we look at it from a strictly physical point of view, the implications are still very serious, and we cannot just ignore them; otherwise, psychological complexes, nervous breaks, social disgust and mental instability would develop as legitimate results of leaving the problem unsolved. Clinical evidence of this is overwhelming.
These natural desires and sentimental aspirations have to be realized. These needs to belong, and to care, and to be cared for, have to be satisfied somehow or other. Women in such a situation do not usually transform their nature or lead an angelic course of life. They feel that they have every right to enjoy life and obtain their share. If they cannot have it in a legal and decent way, they never fail to find other channels, although risky and temporary. Very few women can do without the permanent and assured companionship of men. The overwhelming majority of unmarried women in such a society find their way to meet men. They put up lavish parties, organize social cocktails, attend business conventions, pursue outgoing roads, and so on. The results of this desperate hunting is not always moral or decent. A certain married man may appeal to some woman, and she would try to win him legally or otherwise. Also, some woman may attract a certain man, who might be demoralized or depressed for some reason or other. Such a man will try to have some intimate relationship with her in the open or in secret, in a decent manner or otherwise, in a legal form or just by common law. This would certainly have serious effects on the family life of the married man involved, and would ruin from within the morale and social morality of society. Wives would be deserted or neglected; children would be forsaken; homes would be broken, and so on.
The Woman who meets a male companion under such circumstances has no security or dignity or rights of any kind. Her male companion or professional lover could be with her, maintain her and frequent her residence with gifts and readiness to shower on her all expressions of passionate romance. But what assurance has she got? How can she stop him from walking out on her or letting her down in times when he is most needed and his companionship is most desired? What will prevent him from calling off this secret romance? Morality? Conscience? The Law? Nothing will help; morality was given a death blow when they started this kind of intimacy; conscience was paralyzed when he indulged in this relationship against all regulations of God and man; the Law of society does not recognize any intimacy except with one’s only wife. So, the male can enjoy this easy companionship as long as he wishes, and once his feelings cool off he can go to meet another woman and repeat the same tragedy without regulated responsibilities or obligations on his part.
The woman who has had this experience may still be attractive and appealing, or desirous. She may even look for another man and give it a second trial. But will this give her any security or assurance or dignity or right? She will be running in the same vicious circle all the time hunting or hoping to be hunted. Her burden will grow heavier and heavier, especially if there are children involved. Yet in the end she will be forgotten. That does not befit human dignity of feminine delicacy. Any woman in this situation is bound to become either a nervous wreck or a rebellious revenger and destroyer of morality.
On the other hand, no one can pretend that all married men are happy, successful and satisfied with their marriages. Whether it is his own or his wife's fault, the unhappy husband will look for some other kind of companionship and consolation from somebody else. This is made easy for him when women outnumber men. If he can- not get it through honest channels, he will get it by other means with the result of immoral and indecent intimacies, which may involve illegitimacy, abortion and other endless troubles. These may be ugly and bitter facts, but they are real and acute problems. They have to be solved in a way that will secure the individual, male or female, and protect society.
The solution which Islam offers in this respect is a permission to the unhappy and dissatisfied husband to marry a second wife and live with her openly in a responsible way with equal fulfillment of all obligations to the first wife and to the second. Similarly, it helps unmarried women satisfy their needs, realize their longings and fulfill their legitimate aspiration and natural desires. It gives them a permission to associate with men by marriage and enjoy all the rights and privileges of legal wives. In this way Islam does not try to evade the question or ignore the problem. It is realistic and frank, straightforward and practical. The solution which Islam offers is legal, decent and benevolent. Islam suggests this solution because it can never tolerate hypocrisy in human relations. It cannot accept as legal and moral the attitude of a man who is by law married to one wife and in reality has unlimited scope of intimacies and secret relationships. On the other hand, it is deadly opposed to adultery and cannot condone it. The penalty of adulterers and adulteresses can be as severe as capital punishment, and that of fornicators can be as painful as flogging each of them with a hundred stripes. With hypocrisy, infidelity and adultery forbidden, there is no other alternative except to allow legal polygamy. And this is what Islam has done with the above-mentioned regulations and conditions.
If some people think it unacceptable, they have to resort to the other alternatives which Islam does not accept or particularly favor. And if some other people can control themselves and exercise self- discipline in every aspect, they do not need polygamy. The main concern of Islam is to maintain the dignity and security of the individual, and to protect the integrity and morale of society.
Now anybody can ask himself as to what is better for a society of this kind. Is it commendable to let chaos and irresponsible behavior ruin the very foundations of society, or to resort to and implement the Islamic resolution? Is it in the interest of society to ignore its acute problems, to tolerate hypocrisy and indecency, to condone adultery and secret intimacy? Is it healthy to suppress the legitimate desires and natural longings of man and woman for companionship, the suppression which cannot be effective in reality and which would only drive them to illegal and indecent outlets? Whether the question is considered from a social or moral or humanitarian or spiritual or any other point of view, it will be realized that it is far better for the society to permit its individuals to associate on a legal basis and in a responsible manner, with the protection of the - Law and under the supervision of the authorities concerned.
Even if we look at the matter from a feminine point of view, it will be clear that by this very resolution, Islam assures the woman of due respect, secures her rights and integrity, recognizes her legitimate desire for decent companionship, gives her room in society where she can belong , and provides her with opportunities to care for someone dear and to be cared for. This may sound unpleasant to a woman who already has a husband and resents seeing any other woman having access to his companionship and protection, or sharing with her his support and kindness. But what is the feeling of the other women who have no husbands or reliable companions? Should we just ignore their existence and believe that they have no right to any kind of security and satisfaction? And if we ignore them, will that solve their problem or give them any satisfaction? How would this very wife feel and react if she were in a position similar to that of the companionless women? Would she not desire to belong and to be respected and acknowledged? Would she not accept a half cup or a half husband, as it were, if she cannot have it full? Would she not be happier with some protection and security, instead of being deprived of it altogether? What will happen to her and her children, if the dear husband becomes attracted to or by one of those "surplus" women over a social cocktail or a dancing party? What will become of her if he deserts his family or neglects his responsibilities to make time and provision for the new attraction? How would she feel if she comes to know that the only man in her life is having some affairs with other women and maintaining another person in secret or frequenting another spare sweetheart? Such a man is not only a loss but also a menace. He is mean and wicked. Granted! But is this curse going to help anyone involved? It is the woman -- the legal wife as well as the illegal companion - who suffers from a state of affairs of this kind. But is it not better for both women involved to equally share the man's care and support, and have equal access to his companionship and be both equally protected by the law? Such a man is no longer, in reality, a husband of one wife. He is a mean hypocrite, but the harm is done, and the soul is injured. It is to protect all parties concerned, to combat unchastity, to prevent such harm and save souls from injuries that Islam benevolently interferes and allows the married man to remarry if there is good reason or justification.
2. In some instances of marriage the wife may not be, capable of having any children for some reason or other. To have a family life in the full sense of the word and contribute to the preservation of the human kind, the presence of children is fundamental. Besides, it is one of the major purposes of marriage, and man desires by nature to have children to preserve his name and strengthen the family bonds. In a situation like this a man has one of three ordinary.
alternatives:
(1) To forget it and suppress his natural desires for children; (2) to divorce his childless wife through a course of separation, adultery or otherwise; and (3) to adopt children and give them his name.
None of these alternatives fits the general outlook of Islam on life and nature. Islam does not encourage or approve suppression of anyone’s legitimate desires and natural aspirations. It helps to realize those aspirations and desires in a decent and legal way because suppression in such a case is not part of its system. Divorce under these circumstances is not justifiable, because it is not the wife's fault that she cannot have children. Besides, divorce is the most detestable thing in the sight of God and is permissible only when there is no other alternative. On the other hand, the wife may be in need of the support and companionship of her husband. It will be cruel to let her go when she is in need and desperate, and when she has nobody particularly interested in her, knowing that she is unable to give birth.
Adoption is also out of the question, because Islam ordains that every child must be called by his real father’s name, and if the name is unknown, he must be called a brother in faith (Qur’an, 33:4-5). This, of course, does not mean that a child who has no known father or supporter should suffer deprivation or lack of care. Far from it. It means that adoption as practiced today is not the way to give that child secure and prosperous life. No one can really and fully substitute for the actual father and mother. The daily course of events, the complicated procedures and cases in courts, and the disputes between families attest that adoption never solves a problem. How many cases are there in courts today where the real parents are demanding the return of their children who have been adopted by strange families and introduced to different environments? How long can a normal mother or father see his child in a strange home? How far can they trust artificial parents to bring tip their child in the proper way and give him due care? How will the child himself feel when he grows up to find that his real parents gave him away and that he has had artificial parenthood? How will he react when he discovers that his real parents are unknown, or that his mother gave him up because of fear or poverty or shame or insecurity? How much is the adopted child liked by other members of the adopting family? Do they like a strange child to take their name and inherit the properties to which they are potential heirs? How will the breeders feel when the real parents demand the return of their child, or when the child himself wishes to join his original parents? Many complications are involved. The institution is no doubt unhealthy and may cause much harm to the child, to the parents, artificial and real, to other relations of the adopting family, and to society at large. Adoption is one of the major reasons that encourage many people to indulge in irresponsible activities and intimacies. It is being commercialized nowadays. There are some people who put up their children for "sale" or trade as the news media show. That is not in the African or Asian jungles-, it is right here in Canada and American. Because of all that, Islam does not accept the institution or tolerate its practice among Muslims (See Qur’an, 33:4-6).
With these three alternatives discarded for the reasons mentioned, Islam offers its own solution. It permits a man in such a situation to remarry, to satisfy his natural needs and at the same time maintain his childless wife, who probably needs him now more than at any other time. This is, again, a permission, a course that a desperate man may take instead of adoption or divorce or unnatural suppression of his aspirations. It is another instance where remarriage is the best feasible choice, another way out of a difficult situation to help people to live a normal and secure life in every aspect.
3. There are cases and times where the wife is incapable of fulfilling her marital obligations. She may fail to be as pleasant a companion as she should be or even as she would like to be. She may be in a state where she cannot give the husband all the affection, satisfaction and attention he deserves and desires. All this can and does actually happen. It is not always the wife’s fault; it may be nature itself. It may be a long illness, or a period of confinement, or some of the regular periods. Here, again, not all men can endure or exercise self-control or adopt an angelic manner of behavior. Some men do fall into the pit of immorality, deception, hypocrisy and infidelity. There are actual cases where some husbands fall in passionate love with their sisters-in-law or their baby-sitters or house-keepers who come to look after the family during the illness of the wife or the period of confinement. It has happened many times that while the wives were undergoing the difficult operations of delivery or surgery, their husbands were experiencing fresh romance with other women. The sister or friend of the sick lady is the most frequent character in such a play. With all noble intentions, perhaps, she comes to help her sick sister or dear friend and look after the children or just after the house temporarily, and from there on things develop and get complicated. When there is a sick wife at home or in the hospital, the husband feels lonesome and depressed. The other woman around the house whether the wife’s sister or friend or anybody else, takes it as part of her help to show the husband some sympathy and a bit of understanding, which may be sincere and honest or may be otherwise. Some men and women exploit this simple start of sympathy and use it to the end. The result is a broken heart here or there, and probably a broken home too.
Problems of this kind are not imaginary or even rare. They are common among people. Newspapers deal from time to time with such problems. Court files also bear witness to this fact. The act of man in this respect may be called mean, immoral, indecent, vicious, etc. Granted! But does this help? Does it change the fact or alter human nature? The act is done, an offense is committed repeatedly, and an acute problem is calling for a practicable and decent solution. Should the lawmakers satisfy themselves with an outright condemnation of such a man and his acts? Should they let him ruin his own integrity and destroy the moral foundations of society? Should they allow hypocrisy and immorality to replace honesty and faithfulness? Outright prohibition and condemnation have not stopped some men from committing the offense or quickened their conscience. On the contrary, they have made room for hypocrisy, secret infidelity and irresponsibility in the face of which the law and lawmakers are helpless.
Now Islam cannot be helpless. It cannot compromise on moral standards or tolerate hypocrisy and infidelity. It cannot deceive itself or man by false and pretended satisfactions. Nor can Islam deny the existence of the problem or simply resort to outright condemnation and prohibition, because that does not even minimize the harm. To save a man of this kind from his own self, to protect the woman involved - whether she is the wife or the secret friend - against unnecessary complications, to maintain the moral integrity of society, and to minimize evil, Islam has allowed recourse to polygamy with the reservations and conditions mentioned above. This is to be applied as an emergency measure and is certainly much healthier than nominal monogamy and irresponsible relations between man and woman. Men and women, who find themselves in a desperate state or in a difficult entanglement, may resort to this solution. But if there is any fear of injustice and harm to any party, then monogamy is the rule.
4. Nature itself requires certain things and actions of man in particular. It is man who, as a rule, travels a lot on business trips and stays away from home for various periods of time, on long and short journeys, in his own country and abroad. No one can take the responsibility of ascertaining that all men under such circumstances remain faithful and pure. Experience shows that most men do fall and commit immoral offenses with strange women during the period of absence from home, which may be months or years. Some people are weak and cannot resist even the easily resistible temptations. As a result, they fall into sin, and that might cause a break in the family. This is another case where restricted polygamy may apply. It is much better for a man of this type to have a second home with a second legal wife than to be free in committing immoral and irresponsible offenses. This is even much better for the wife herself; when she knows that her man is bound by legal regulations and moral principles in his intimacy with another woman, she Is most likely to be less irritable than when he enjoys the same intimacy otherwise. Naturally she does not like her man to be shared by anybody else. But when she is confronted with a situation wherein the man has the choice to be either legally responsible and morally bound, or illegally and immorally associated with someone else, she would certainly choose the first alternative and accept the situation. However, if she is harmed or her rights are violated, she can always refer to the law or obtain a divorce if it be in her best interest.
By applying Islamic polygamy to this case, the man’s integrity, the second woman's dignity and the moral values of society would be more safeguarded. These cases need no elaboration. They are factual elements in daily life. They may be rare, but rarer is the practice of, polygamy among Muslims. Those Muslims who resort to polygamy are much rarer than the infidel husbands and wives who live in monogamous societies.
Although it is risky and contingent on many prerequisites, as explained earlier, polygamy is far better than negligence and infidelity, hypocrisy and insecurity, immorality and indecency. It helps men and women to solve their difficult problems on a realistic and responsible basis. It brings down to a minimum many psychological, natural and emotional complications of human life. It is a precautionary measure to be applied in the best interest of all parties concerned. Yet it is no article of Faith in Islam nor is it an injunction; it is merely a permission from God, a solution of some of the most difficult problems in human relations. The Muslims maintain that legal and conditional polygamy is preferable to the other courses that many people take nowadays, people who pride themselves on nominal marriage and superficial monogamy. The Muslim stand is this: under normal circumstances, monogamy is not only preferable but is the rule. Otherwise, polygamy may be considered and applied if necessary.
To complete the discussion one has to examine the marriages of Prophet Muhammad. These marriages are no problem for a Muslim who understands the ideal character of the Prophet and the circumstances under which his marriages were contracted. But quite often they stand as a stumbling block for non-Muslims to understand the personality of the Prophet, and cause irresponsible and premature conclusions, which are not to the credit of Islam or the Prophet. Here we shall not give any conclusions of our own or denounce the conclusions of others. We shall present certain facts and let the readers see for themselves.
The institution of marriage as such enjoys a very high status in Islam. It is highly commendable and essential for the sound survival of society.
Muhammad never said that he was immortal or divine. Time and again, he emphasized the fact that he was a mortal chosen by God, to deliver God’s message to mankind. Although unique and distinguished in his life, he lived like a man and died as a man. Marriage, therefore, was natural for him, and not a heresy or anathema.
He lived in an extremely hot climate where the physical desires press hard on man, where people develop physical maturity at an early age, and where easy satisfaction was a common thing among people of all classes. Nevertheless, Muhammad had never touched women until he was twenty-five years of age, when he married for the first time. In the whole of Arabia he was known by his unimpeachable character and called al-Ameen, a title which signified the highest standard of moral life.
His first marriage at this unusually late stage in that area was to Lady Khadeejah, an old twice-widowed lady-who was fifteen years senior to him. She herself initiated the contract, and he accepted the proposal in spite of her older age and in spite of her being twice- widowed. At the time he could have quite easily found many prettier girls and much younger wives, if he were passionate or after things physical.
With this lady alone, he lived until he was over fifty years of age, and by her he had all his children with the exception of Ibraheem. She lived with him until she passed the age of sixty-five, and in her life he never had any other marriage or any other intimacy with anybody besides his only wife.
Now he proclaimed the message of God, and was well over fifty and she over sixty-five years of age. Persecutions and perils were continually inflicted on him and his followers. In the middle of these troubles, his wife died. After her death, he stayed without any wife for some time. Then there was Sawdah, who had emigrated with her husband to Abyssinia in the early years of persecutions. On the way back, her husband died and she sought a shelter. The natural course for her was to turn to the Prophet himself for whose mission her husband had died. The Prophet extended his shelter and married her. She was not particularly young or pretty and pleasant. She was an ordinary widow with a quick and loose temper. Later in the same year, the Prophet proposed to a minor girl of seven years, Aishah, the daughter of his dear companion Abu Bakr. The marriage was not consummated till some time after the migration to Medina. The motives of these two marriages can be understood to be anything except passions and physical attractions. However, he lived with the two wives for five to six years, up to his fifty-sixth year of age, without taking any other wife.
From his fifty-sixth year up to the sixtieth year of his life, the Prophet contracted nine marriages in quick succession. In the last three years of his life he contracted no marriages at all. Most of his marriages were contracted in a period of about five years, when he was passing the most difficult and trying stage in his mission. It was at that time that Muslims were engaged in decisive battles and entangled in an endless circle of trouble from within as well as from without. It was at that time that the Islamic legislation was in the making, and the foundations of an Islamic society were being laid down. The fact that Muhammad was the most dominant figure in these events and the center around which they revolved, and that most of his marriages took place during this particular period is an extremely interesting phenomenon. It invites the serious attention of historians, sociologists, legislators, psychologists, etc. It cannot be interpreted simply in terms of physical attractions and lustful passions.
Muhammad lived a most simple, austere, and modest life. During the day he was the busiest man of his era as he was Head of State, Chief Justice, Commander-in-Chief, Instructor, etc., ail at once. At night he was the most devoted man. He used to stay one to two-thirds of every night vigilant in prayers and meditation (Qur’an, 73:20). His furniture consisted of mats, jugs, blankets and such simple things, although he was the king and sovereign of Arabia. His life was so severe and austere that his wives once pressed him for wordly comforts but they never had any (cf. Qur’an, 33:48). Obviously, that was not the life of a lustful and passionate man.
The wives he took were all widows or divorced with the exception of one minor girl, Aishah. None of these widowed and divorced wives was particularly known for physical charms or beauties. Some of them were senior to, him in age, and practically all of them sought his hand and shelter, or were presented to him as gifts but he took them as legal wives.
This is the general background of the Prophet’s marriages, and it can never give any impressions that these marriages were in response to physical needs or biological pressures. It is inconceivable to think that he maintained so large a number of wives because of personal designs or physical wants. Anyone, a friend or a foe, who doubts the moral integrity or the spiritual excellence of Muhammad on account of his marriages has to find satisfactory explanations of questions like these: Why did he start his first marriage at the age of 25 after having had no association with any female? Why did he choose a twice-widowed older lady who was 15 years senior to him? Why did he remain with her only until her death when he was over fifty? Why did he accept all those helpless widows and divorcees who possessed no particular appealing qualities? Why did he lead such an austere and hard life, when he could have had an easy and comfortable course? Why did he contract most of his marriages in the busiest five years in his life, when his mission and career were at stake? How could he manage to be what he was, if the haram life or passions overtook him? There are many other points that can be raised. The matter is not so simple as to be interpreted in terms of manly love and desire for women. It calls for a serious and honest consideration.
Reviewing the marriages of Muhammad individually one does not fail to find the actual reasons behind these marriages. They may be classified as follows:
The Prophet came to the world as an ideal model for mankind, and so he was in all aspects of his life. Marriage in particular is a striking illustration. He was the kindest husband, the most loving and cherishable partner. He had to undertake all stages of human experience and moral test, He lived with one wife and with more than one, with the old and the young, with the widow and the divorcee, with the pleasant, and the temperamental, with the renowned and the humble; but in all cases he was the pattern of kindness and consolation. He was designated to experience all these variant aspects of human behavior. For him this could not have been a physical pleasure; it was a moral trial as well as a human task, and a hard one, too.
The Prophet came to establish morality and assure every Muslim of security, protection, moral integrity and a decent life. His mission was put to the test in his life and did not stay in the stationary form of theory. As usual, he took the hardest part and did his share in the most inconvenient manner. Wars and persecutions burdened the Muslims with many widows, orphans and divorcees. They had to be protected and maintained by the surviving Muslim men. It was his practice to help these women get resettled by marriage to his companions. Some women were rejected by the companions and some others sought his personal patronage and protection. Realizing fully their conditions and sacrifices for the cause of Islam, he had to do something to relieve them. One course of relief was to take them as his own wives and accept the challenge of heavy liabilities. So he did and maintained more than one wife at a time which was no fun or easy course. He had to take part in the rehabilitation of those widows, orphans and divorcees because he could not ask his companions to do things which he himself was not prepared to do or participate in. These women were trusts of the Muslims and had to be kept jointly. What he did, then, was his share of responsibility, and as always his share was the largest and heaviest. That is why he had more than one wife, and had, more wives than any of his companions.
There were many war prisoners captured by the Muslims and entitled to security and protection. They were not killed or denied any right, human or physical. On the contrary, they were helped to settle down through legal marriages to Muslims, instead of being taken as concubines and common mistresses. That also was another moral burden on the Muslims and had to be shouldered jointly as a common responsibility. Here, again, Muhammad carried his share and took some responsibilities by marrying two of those captives.
The Prophet contracted some of his marriages for sociopolitical reasons. His principal concern was the future of Islam. He was most interested in strengthening the Muslims by all bonds. That is why he married the minor daughter of Abu Bakr, his First Successor, and the daughter of Umar, his Second Successor. It was by his marriage to Juwairiah that he gained the support for Islam of the whole clan of Bani al-Mustaliq and their allied tribes. It was through marriage to Safiyah that he neutralized a great section of the hostile Jews of Arabia. By accepting Mary the Copt from Egypt as his wife, he formed a political alliance with a king of great magnitude. It was also a gesture of friendship with a neighboring king that Muhammad married Zaynab who was presented to him by the Negus of Abyssinia in whose territory the early Muslims found safe refuge.
By contracting most of these marriages, the Prophet meant to eliminate the caste system, the racial and national vanities, and the religious prejudices. He married some of the humblest and poorest women. He married a Coptic girl from Egypt, a Jewess of a different religion and race, a negro girl from Abyssinia. He was not satisfied by merely teaching brotherhood and equality but he meant what he taught and put it into practice.
6. Some of the Prophet’s marriages were for legislative reasons and to abolish certain corrupt traditions. Such was his marriage to Zaynab, divorcee of the freed slave Zaid. Before Islam, the Arabs did not allow divorcees to remarry. Zaid was adopted by Muhammad and called his son as was the custom among the Arabs before Islam. But Islam abrogated this custom and disapproved its practice. Muhammad was the first man to express this disapproved in a practical way. So he married the divorcee of his "adopted" son to show that adoption does not really make the adopted child a real son of the adopting father and also to show that marriage Is lawful for divorcees, Incidentally, this very Zaynab was Muhammad’s cousin, and had been offered to him for marriage before she was
taken by Zaid. He refused her then, but after she was divorced he accepted her for the two legislative purposes: the lawful marriage of divorcees and the real status of adopted children. The story of this Zaynab has been associated in some minds with ridiculous fabrications as regards the moral integrity of Muhammad. The-se vicious fabrications are not even worth considering here (see Qur’an, 33:36, 37, 40).
These are the circumstances accompanying the Prophet’s marriages. For the Muslims there is no doubt whatsoever that Muhammad had the highest standards of morality and was the perfect model for man under all circumstances. To non-Muslims we appeal for a serious discussion of the matter. They, then, may be able to reach sound conclusions.
-----------------------------
I hope this helps in someway and i hope others here will also help you and help me too.
Sadiq!
-------------------------------
"Oh Allah, enrich me with knowledge, adorn me with gentleness, honour me with piety and beautify me with health", Aameen
So what happens if a Muslim woman marries a Muslim man, both of them expecting that this will be a monogamous marriage, and he decides for some arbitrary reason to go ahead and take another wife? If his first wife objects, does she have any recourse?
I've often told my husband that if he were ever to want to take another wife, divorce would not be a question because he would not be alive long enough for it to take place! :-) Of course, for us as Christians there is no possibility of polygamy anyway (unless we were fundamentalist Mormons).
Hi Sadiq!
I appreciate your taking the time to so thoroughly answer my question, and truly, your reply does bring information my way that I had never heard before. In particular, the circumstance of the rules about polygamy being laid down make some of the purpose of polygamy much more clear.
Two observations:
1)The author of this article is incorrect when he says that The Bible does not restrict polygamy in any way. From the beginning, God created male and female, and verses in the first chapters of Genesis refer to a man and a woman cleaving together and becoming one. *A* man and *a* woman, not many of one or the other, or (heaven forbid) many of each. The patriarchs did, indeed, have more than one wife, but it invariably caused great problems. (See the story of Isaac, Rachel and Leah, for example.) Still later, the kings of Israel were specifically told not to marry women from other countries, which was the main reason for their polygamy. They disobeyed and brought great problems upon themselves. Finally, in the New Testament it is specifically stated that a man who assumes a leadership position in a church must be the husband of one woman. Taken altogether, the message of the Bible in regards to polygamy is that it was tolerated but not held up as the ideal in the Old Testament, and not tolerated at all in the New.
2)The article which you posted seems to assume that men are victims of their own unremitting passions for women, and that they will find female companionship, one way or another. I disagree with that. It takes no special skill or talent to avoid promiscuity--it just takes keeping your pants on (pardon my bluntness, please). It's not that hard, it just takes moral character. And if a man cannot be satisfied with one woman, why would he necessarily be satisfied with four? It's entirely possible for a man to have four wives and multiple mistresses, too, and I have heard of it happening.
The article also seems to imply that if a woman has one husband, that ought to be enough to satisfy her. I think a woman is just as likely to want more than one man as a man is to want more than one woman. In other words, being married is not necessarily going to keep her from being promiscuous, either.
Hmm. . . maybe I'd better go see what my husband is up to! :-)
Peace to you,
Tita
Netcurtains
25-02-2002, 09:15
I would like to look at it from the angle of children.
It is reasonably certain children need a good father figure - especially boys. It is also reasonably certain that small families bring big benefits to the children. Having multiply wifes is a cause of poverty, large families and thus a distant and more or less useless father figure. Polgamy and mistresses are (from a non-religious view) clearly to be avoided at all costs.
Keep your eye on the ball - the kids.
>Hi Sadiq!
> I appreciate
>your taking the time to
>so thoroughly answer my question,
>and truly, your reply does
>bring information my way that
>I had never heard before.
> In particular, the circumstance
>of the rules about polygamy
>being laid down make some
>of the purpose of polygamy
>much more clear.
> Two observations:
>
>1)The author of this article is
>incorrect when he says that
>The Bible does not restrict
>polygamy in any way.
>From the beginning, God created
>male and female, and verses
>in the first chapters of
>Genesis refer to a man
>and a woman cleaving together
>and becoming one. *A*
>man and *a* woman, not
>many of one or the
>other, or (heaven forbid) many
>of each. The patriarchs
>did, indeed, have more than
>one wife, but it invariably
>caused great problems. (See
>the story of Isaac, Rachel
>and Leah, for example.)
>Still later, the kings of
>Israel were specifically told not
>to marry women from other
>countries, which was the main
>reason for their polygamy.
>They disobeyed and brought great
>problems upon themselves. Finally,
>in the New Testament it
>is specifically stated that a
>man who assumes a leadership
>position in a church must
>be the husband of one
>woman. Taken altogether, the
>message of the Bible in
>regards to polygamy is that
>it was tolerated but not
>held up as the ideal
>in the Old Testament, and
>not tolerated at all in
>the New.
I hope the author corrects himself, if it was incorrect refering to the bible and the issues of polygamy in christianity.
>2)The article which you posted seems
>to assume that men are
>victims of their own unremitting
>passions for women, and that
>they will find female companionship,
>one way or another.
>I disagree with that.
Thats your opinon. yet it does happen? and it has been reported in may incidents, that men 'do' have a sense of emptyness and they might fufil this is illegal ways in regards to islam.
>It takes no special skill
>or talent to avoid promiscuity--it
>just takes keeping your pants
>on (pardon my bluntness, please).
:). But the flinging (if i may say this) of the hair 'does' cause some men to go running to thier false reward. So it does happen and not 'all' men can control thier desires.
> It's not that hard,
>it just takes moral character.
> And if a man
>cannot be satisfied with one
>woman, why would he necessarily
>be satisfied with four?
Not satifsy, he will not do illegal acts, in islam. Having illegal relationships. If he is satisfied or not, is one point, but that having more than one wife will save him from having 'extra' relationships (illegal).
>It's entirely possible for a
>man to have four wives
>and multiple mistresses, too, and
>I have heard of it
>happening.
>
>The article also seems to imply
>that if a woman has
>one husband, that ought to
>be enough to satisfy her.
I think.......
> I think a woman
>is just as likely to
>want more than one man
>as a man is to
>want more than one woman.
> In other words, being
>married is not necessarily going
>to keep her from being
>promiscuous, either.
Women might want more men, but islam does not allow that. simple. She will not be able to take care of all that cooking :)(just saying from my point).
>
>Hmm. . . maybe I'd better
>go see what my husband
>is up to! :-)
Tell him to join us too...
>Peace to you,
>Tita
Same to you too. And everyone here.
Sadiq!
-------------------------------
"Oh Allah, enrich me with knowledge, adorn me with gentleness, honour me with piety and beautify me with health", Aameen
Peace to all members!
Regarding this....
"..Even the Prophets pbuh daughter Fatimah objected to her husband marrying another woman..."
I just wanted to ask, i read somewhere that the husband does not require permission of the first wife, but he has to inform her, but dont need permission. Please clarify this issue.
-----------
BinZiad
The truth is not known by the men, the men are known by the truth.
------------
Hi Sadiq,
What was that about flinging the hair? *puzzled*
> And if a man
>cannot be satisfied with one
>woman, why would he necessarily
>be satisfied with four?
"Not satifsy, he will not do illegal acts, in islam. Having illegal relationships. If he is satisfied or not, is one point, but that having more than one wife will save him from having 'extra' relationships (illegal)."
But that's just my point. Just because a man has four wives instead of one, doesn't mean he isn't *still* going to seek out more relationships.
Netcurtains
26-02-2002, 09:10
Some clarification.
In the UK Polagamy is not allowed. You will be committing adultary. You and your "second" wife-let would be adultories. This clarifies it for a good percentage of the planet as Muslims have to keep the laws of the lands they are in. I hope this helps.
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Greetings and good day.
MashaAllah, see that you have finally attacked this very controversial topic, Tita.
There has been some good interaction on this discussion, but I would just like to put in my 2 cents' worth. hehe.
Would like to direct attention to several points on this topic:
1. In the Quran we find the basis of Islamic law and guidance for our lives as muslims. The polygamy (or polygany, as has been pointed out being more correct) issue is included. In the Quran, we find that it has been a direction or as some ppl have understood it to be...an order or command, to take more than one wife...2, or 3, or 4 (the upper limit being 4)...with the stipulation of treating them equally. And...if that cannot be met, then to retain only one. As has previously been pointed out, some have come to understand this stipulation being a leniency towards monogomy in marriage, rather than polygany. Depends on the individual, his desires, his circumstances, and his abilities to meet the stipulations set for him by Allah. There is great penalty for the man who cannot live up to those stipulations, yet retains more than one wife.
2. Also, along with the verses which are directing for polygany, there is no stipulation whatsoever on taking the permission or agreement of the first wife (or previous wives if 3rd or 4th is attained). However, knowing human nature, and taking into consideration simple kindness and concern of one partner of a marriage for the other, it is only logical that the husband should present his desire to his wife, in order that she not only know, but to be prepared in case that he shall ever take another wife.
3. As for the wife herself...there is truly no legitimate islamic ground that she object to her husband taking another wife. This is a blessing (some may not at this time be able to conceive that ideal) that God has bestowed upon muslims, and not for anyone, man or woman, to question it, or limit it any more than God Himself has already limited it. However, if the wife realizes that within her own nature she cannot accept to living in a life-style of having to share her husband with another wife if he should desire (for any reason)...then she is legitimate in requesting to be divorced. She does not have to live with the situation if she cannot psychologically handle it. However, she should consider the repercussions of such a division...not only in her immediate life, but as well for her eternal life. We are all faced at one time or another with tests to define and pronounce our dedication to Allah, and our determination in Islam. And, this life is only a passing one...and the pleasures that are in this life are only passing as well. We should all keep our concentration on the eternity...and what shall be our final abode. For a woman to have her husband marry another wife may merely be a test for her in her religion, to promote her to increase her faith and practice of the religion truly into daily life practice. As well for the man. It is truly a test for the man, for surely having one wife is a test...much less having more than one wife.
Many wrongly think that this issue of polygany is merely something of a physical aspect of immediate satisfaction of sexual desires. But it is more than that. It is an answer to many of the ills of society, where many times women outnumber men, and are left alone without mates. In this viewpoint, it is a means of ensuring or at least helping the woman to cope in a life with a part-time husband rather than having to live totally without a husband, and hopefully for her to achieve her goal of having children and a family of her own as well.
The responsibilities of a polygamous relationship far outweigh the advantages, and those responsibilities many times turn out to be disadvantages. There is of course extra expense incurred upon the man to provide for more than one wife, and many times more than one household. As well, there is the responsibility to evenly divide his time, and not only his money, between those wives and those households. A very difficult task to say the least. And if he eventually receives any pleasures from the excursion into such a life of polyganous relations, after successfully dividing himself, his time, his money, his efforts, then he deserves whatever pleasure that he may attain. And the best pleasure would be to receive the blessings and approval from Allah for having successfully carried out His directives by carrying on such a relationship, and truly caring for more than one woman.
This point about the muslim woman rejecting the permissability and possibility of her husband to take on another wife is a problem which has arised in the muslim community of recent past. It is something which I am finding quite common in many muslim and arab circles. And...it is truly a sad disgrace that such weakness in faith has arisen to cause this questioning among the muslims themselves. We cannot begin to understand the reasoning behind all that has been given to us in the guidance of the Quran. It is there for us to accept and to live by. Not necessarily to question it's validity or permissability. As for those countries of the world (which are, in fact most) which have illegalized polygany, the muslims living there find that they must abide by the 'laws of the land' to live in harmony with the non-muslims who are ruling those countries. That does not mean that polygany has been illegalized from Islam...just the opposite. That just means that in those areas the muslims do not marry more than one for the time that they abide in those lands.
No woman is truly happy nor encouraging for her husband to take on another wife. The natural resulting jealousy and anger at such a thought is only normal human feelings. However, as muslims, we need to review what has been given to us in the directives of the Quran, and it is not for us to either deny nor question. We cannot fathom the wisdom behind such a directive. There are and can be many reasons for a man to take another wife...and a major one is when the wife is barren. I have witnessed many such marriages where the wife is barren, and after many medical tests and procedures, it has been determined that the wife is barren and the man is fine. And after trying with test-tube incubation, still no results. And finally when the man may marry another wife...she becomes pregnant and has children. I have witnessed personally many such cases. And this is quite a valid and legitimate reason for marrying. Also, can physically go the other way...the man not able to reproduce, whereas the woman healthy and without complication. In this case, although the woman may not take on another husband, yet she has the option of divorce, and later re-marrying in search of children.
This was only one example of the many various reasons for marrying more than one wife. And the reasons can and are as vast as the difference in individuals themselves.
And as for the argument raised that polygany promotes poverty, that also is not necessarily true. I personally have witnessed many families of one man with 2 or more wives, and many children as well between all those wives, and they are living finely. Some of them are providing for each wife a separate home, and yet others are abiding the man and all the wives in the same home. Depending upon the ability of the husband in providing, as well as the willingness of the women to co-habitate. And, in many instances, believe it or not, I witness daily many of the co-wives who are truly like sisters or even better between one another, and the respective mothers of all the children as true mothers of the children of the other women.
Know this is rather long...sorry. But hope that this has helped to shed some basic light on this topic.
Please do keep on with the questions and discussion, Tita and others.
Lulua.
>Hi Sadiq,
Hi to you too.
>What was
>that about flinging the hair?
> *puzzled*
'flinging', i meant women do have a way to take men away. Whether the hair or makeup, just a comment many make to say that women do have some special power to take men away, but remembering not all men.
>
>> And if a man
>>cannot be satisfied with one
>>woman, why would he necessarily
>>be satisfied with four?
>
>"Not satifsy, he will not do
>illegal acts, in islam. Having
>illegal relationships. If he is
>satisfied or not, is one
>point, but that having more
>than one wife will save
>him from having 'extra' relationships
>(illegal)."
>
>But that's just my point.
>Just because a man has
>four wives instead of one,
>doesn't mean he isn't *still*
>going to seek out more
>relationships.
This is taken from the above article;
"....Such a man will try to have some intimate relationship with her in the open or in secret, in a decent manner or otherwise, in a legal form or just by common law. This would certainly have serious effects on the family life of the married man involved, and would ruin from within the morale and social morality of society. Wives would be deserted or neglected; children would be forsaken; homes would be broken, and so on...."
Now, in regards to islam, having other 'relationships' are not allowed, but islam has allowed but not encouraged (meaning many cannot give equal rights to all of them) having more wives.
What is better, treating a women, whether she is an widow or not, deserving all love and rights of a married women, then the men to search and have illegal relationships that cause more trouble and bring great shawdows to the society.
What is the option? > having relationships that only cause more friction, then to marry another wife, statisfying both the men and the current wife and ensuring a brighter future for the second wife. The main point is that of making the society better as women 'have' been become widows and they will outnumber men.
so what is the other option?
A very healthy disscussion, i am a bit busy, so this is for now and inshallah later i will share my typing skills the always shine :).!!
Take care all!!
Sadiq!
-------------------------------
"Oh Allah, enrich me with knowledge, adorn me with gentleness, honour me with piety and beautify me with health", Aameen
>
>Peace to all members!
>
>Regarding this....
>
>"..Even the Prophets pbuh daughter Fatimah
>objected to her husband marrying
>another woman..."
>
>I just wanted to ask, i
>read somewhere that the husband
>does not require permission of
>the first wife, but he
>has to inform her, but
>dont need permission. Please clarify
>this issue.
>
as salaam alaikum
no a man does not need to seek permission of his first wife to marry again. Unless of course there is some stipulation in the marriage contract which states just that. However a man who remarries would be smart enough to consider the feelings of his present wife. Fatimah objected to her father muhammad pbuh who told Ali basically that this was something that hurt his daughter. He never married anyone else until she died.
A woman is not forced in marriage.. nor is she to be held captive. If such a marriage arrangement is not to her choice.. she always has options no matter how many muslims want to limit her.
>
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
>I would like to look at
>it from the angle of
>children.
>It is reasonably certain children need
>a good father figure -
>especially boys. It is also
>reasonably certain that small families
>bring big benefits to the
>children. Having multiply wifes is
>a cause of poverty, large
>families and thus a distant
>and more or less useless
>father figure. Polgamy and mistresses
>are (from a non-religious view)
>clearly to be avoided at
>all costs.
actually many such marriages do work for the benefit of the children and for the women. The women have husbands they wouldn't who are able to care and provide for them and their chidlren. The children now have a father who is not a bad father or absantee father simply because he has another wife or two. Most of the families who do have such arrangements do live in very close proxemity to where the father is always available for the children. The children than have more family surrounding them to care for them, love them, befriend them ect ect. This is a great support system for many familys. I know quite a few families in such marriages that have worked for the good rather for the bad as you suppose.
Bad fathers will be absentee and bad because they are period.. not because they have more than one wife. btw with more people in the household you tend to have more goods available.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
>2)The article which you posted seems
>to assume that men are
>victims of their own unremitting
>passions for women, and that
>they will find female companionship,
>one way or another.
>I disagree with that.
And I agree with you here, I have never understood this reasoning of why men marry more than one woman. Well if he can't he will fornicate which is a major sin in Islam??? that doesn't speak much of righteous intent of this man to begin with. A man should marry with the hopes of doing right religiously and pleasing God not out of some sex needs. I don't find that muslim men as the majority are as weak and coniving as many unknowingly project them to be.
>
>The article also seems to imply
>that if a woman has
>one husband, that ought to
>be enough to satisfy her.
> I think a woman
>is just as likely to
>want more than one man
>as a man is to
>want more than one woman.
> In other words, being
>married is not necessarily going
>to keep her from being
>promiscuous, either.
you are right about that.. however after watching a show on polygamy and the differences between men and women regarding this issue. according to the study men tend to marry more women to have more children. and in communities were having more than one wife is a social status you'll see it more. Very rarely was women marrying more than one man an option.. except in one area they showed but than the woman was married to bothers (talka bout confusing leniage)
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Netcurtains
28-02-2002, 00:39
LAST EDITED ON 27-02-02 AT 11:45 PM (GMT)[p]Lets get a bit of science into the argument not "old wifes tales".
Pakistan and India both are similiar peoples ethnically and culturally. The only real difference is "religion".
This is what Hindu's say:
"
Present day Hindus consider both polygamy and polyandry primitive and archaic, remnants of an old society that still haunt the lives of a few unfortunate victims. In India Hindus acknowledge polygamy as both illegal and immoral.
"
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_polygamy.htm
Why debate something that is clearly causing poverty and hurting woman.
In the Bible Jesus wanted women to be women (lol) and express their femininity openly and freely: "a woman came to him having an alabaster flask of very costly fragrant oil, and she poured it on his head as he sat at the table". Neither Jesus nor Mary were married. When MEN complained Jesus said: "Assuredly, I say to you, WHEREVER the gospel is preached in the WHOLE WORLD, what this WOMAN has done WILL BE TOLD as a memorial to her".
Think about it - set your FEMININITY FREE.
Your assumption, and a wrong one, is that women in polygamous relationships are somehow captives and not in touch w/ their 'feminity'. I believe you underestimate women just a tad.
I don't think modern day hindus is a good source of "science" to support your position that polygyny is harmful to a woman nor to children. Just because they see it is archaic doesn't mean that it doesn't work for many families regardless of how others feel. It doesn't cause poverty in India you might want to check into what does.
There are many socities that benefit from such a marriage, you shouldn't be so limited in your cultural restrictions, doesn't make for good "science" especially a social science.
http://www.theperspective.org/polygyny.html
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Netcurtains
28-02-2002, 23:02
LAST EDITED ON 28-02-02 AT 10:09 PM (GMT)[p]Your assumptions about my assumptions are incorrect.
I can tell you if Polagamy is a selling point for Islam in the UK you will get perverts converting to Islam (seriously) and ordinary people staying well away. Is this what you want? To back up my statement a significant (by this I mean more then chance) of captured Islamic "terrorists" seem to have come from the UK and some of those seem to have previous criminal records.
Think of your kids. Think of your daughters - is this want you want for your daughter or do you want this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_1118000/1118281.stm
This is the religion that caused such great results (IMHO):
http://home.earthlink.net/~lifestream/Ascending/Feminine.htm
Hi Lulua,
>There has been some good interaction
>on this discussion, but I
>would just like to put
>in my 2 cents' worth.
>hehe.
Always worth WAY more than two cents, IMO.
>
>Would like to direct attention to
>several points on this topic:
>
>
>1. In the Quran we find
>the basis of Islamic law
>and guidance for our lives
>as muslims. The polygamy (or
>polygany, as has been pointed
>out being more correct) issue
>is included. In the Quran,
>we find that it has
>been a direction or as
>some ppl have understood it
>to be...an order or command,
>to take more than one
>wife...2, or 3, or 4
>(the upper limit being 4)...with
>the stipulation of treating them
>equally. And...if that cannot be
>met, then to retain only
>one. As has previously been
>pointed out, some have come
>to understand this stipulation being
>a leniency towards monogomy in
>marriage, rather than polygany.
Lulua, which do you believe? Is the Koran lenient towards polygany and only tolerant of monogamy, or the other way around?
>It
>is truly a test for
>the man, for surely having
>one wife is a test...much
>less having more than one
>wife.
Not to mention the test of having one husband! :-) Although mine is a sweet and considerate husband in every way.
>
>Many wrongly think that this issue
>of polygany is merely something
>of a physical aspect of
>immediate satisfaction of sexual desires.
>But it is more than
>that.
I'm sure it's supposed to be more than that, but let's be honest: for at least some men, it is about sex and having lots of kids.
It is an answer
>to many of the ills
>of society, where many times
>women outnumber men, and are
>left alone without mates.
This depends on the society, does it not? In our society, for example, the population balance between men and women is pretty equal, and some women don't want long term relationships with a man anyway.
>The responsibilities of a polygamous relationship
>far outweigh the advantages, and
>those responsibilities many times turn
>out to be disadvantages. There
>is of course extra expense
>incurred upon the man to
>provide for more than one
>wife, and many times more
>than one household. As well,
>there is the responsibility to
>evenly divide his time, and
>not only his money, between
>those wives and those households.
>A very difficult task to
>say the least.
I think polygany works best in societies where men are the hunter-gatherer types, where there are more women than men because the men tend to have a shorter life expectancy. It is not hard in such a society for a man to provide for all of his wives equally, since there is not a high standard of living anyway. Of course, somebody who is extremely wealthy would also be able to support all of his wives with no problem. It's only the middle class sort of people who would have a problem supporting this lifestyle (from a monetary standpoint).
And if
>he eventually receives any pleasures
>from the excursion into such
>a life of polyganous relations,
>after successfully dividing himself, his
>time, his money, his efforts,
>then he deserves whatever pleasure
>that he may attain.
If he can find happiness living with four women at once, and they with him, more power to them all.
There are
>and can be many reasons
>for a man to take
>another wife...and a major one
>is when the wife is
>barren. I have witnessed many
>such marriages where the wife
>is barren, and after many
>medical tests and procedures, it
>has been determined that the
>wife is barren and the
>man is fine. And after
>trying with test-tube incubation, still
>no results. And finally when
>the man may marry another
>wife...she becomes pregnant and has
>children. I have witnessed personally
>many such cases. And this
>is quite a valid and
>legitimate reason for marrying. Also,
>can physically go the other
>way...the man not able to
>reproduce, whereas the woman healthy
>and without complication. In this
>case, although the woman may
>not take on another husband,
>yet she has the option
>of divorce, and later re-marrying
>in search of children.
Oy vey! This is where, no disrespect to Islam intended, I am so glad to be a Christian. The idea of divorcing your spouse because they can't provide you with children is totally repulsive, and would not be allowed in Christianity. When we marry, our vows state that it is "for better or worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health." I cannot imagine the stress of trying to conceive, month after month, knowing that if you don't succeed your spouse may divorce you (if you are a man) or take another wife.
>
>This was only one example of
>the many various reasons for
>marrying more than one wife.
>And the reasons can and
>are as vast as the
>difference in individuals themselves.
>
>And as for the argument raised
>that polygany promotes poverty, that
>also is not necessarily true.
>I personally have witnessed many
>families of one man with
>2 or more wives, and
>many children as well between
>all those wives, and they
>are living finely. Some of
>them are providing for each
>wife a separate home, and
>yet others are abiding the
>man and all the wives
>in the same home. Depending
>upon the ability of the
>husband in providing, as well
>as the willingness of the
>women to co-habitate.
In Utah, as you know, there are many communities made almost entirely of polygamous marriages. And most of those families are dirt poor and on welfare, in some cases committing massive welfare fraud to keep the money coming in. Maybe it's just a matter of a man knowing exactly how many people he can afford to support, and knowing when to stop!
And, in
>many instances, believe it or
>not, I witness daily many
>of the co-wives who are
>truly like sisters or even
>better between one another, and
>the respective mothers of all
>the children as true mothers
>of the children of the
>other women.
>
Yes, I have heard of this too.
Incidentally, in the United States I believe that polygamy should be legal, providing all the spouses involved are adults when they marry. Not that I, personally, would EVER consent to such an arrangement.
Tita
>In the Bible Jesus wanted women
>to be women (lol) and
>express their femininity openly and
>freely: "a woman came to
>him having an alabaster flask
>of very costly fragrant oil,
>and she poured it on
>his head as he sat
>at the table". Neither Jesus
>nor Mary were married. When
>MEN complained Jesus said: "Assuredly,
>I say to you, WHEREVER
>the gospel is preached in
>the WHOLE WORLD, what this
>WOMAN has done WILL BE
>TOLD as a memorial to
>her".
First of all, Mary poured the oil on Jesus' feet, not His head. And she poured it not because of an urge to express her femininity, but to show that Jesus was worth more than the most precious thing she owned. It's true that Jesus never married, but we don't know about Mary for sure. She apparently was not married at the time of the Gospels, but who knows if she had been married before or if she got married later.
Anyway, interpreting this story as an attempt for Mary to express her femininity requires a serious re-reading of the story. Mary was expressing her adoration of Jesus, nothing more.
>
>Think about it - set your
>FEMININITY FREE.
>>I would like to look at
>>it from the angle of
>>children.
>>It is reasonably certain children need
>>a good father figure -
>>especially boys. It is also
>>reasonably certain that small families
>>bring big benefits to the
>>children. Having multiply wifes is
>>a cause of poverty, large
>>families and thus a distant
>>and more or less useless
>>father figure. Polgamy and mistresses
>>are (from a non-religious view)
>>clearly to be avoided at
>>all costs.
>
>
>actually many such marriages do work
>for the benefit of the
>children and for the women.
>The women have husbands they
>wouldn't who are able to
>care and provide for them
>and their chidlren. The children
>now have a father who
>is not a bad father
>or absantee father simply because
>he has another wife or
>two. Most of the families
>who do have such arrangements
>do live in very close
>proxemity to where the father
>is always available for the
>children.
How can the father be "always available" for his children if he has dozens of them? The man in Utah who was just prosecuted for polygamy has five wives and 32 children. I doubt he even knows their birthdays, let alone has any time for one-on-one conversations with them.
The children than have
>more family surrounding them to
>care for them, love them,
>befriend them ect ect. This
>is a great support system
>for many familys. I know
>quite a few families in
>such marriages that have worked
>for the good rather for
>the bad as you suppose.
I hadn't thought of that side of it, but the fact remains that the father is going to be a rather distant figure in many of the children's lives, not a constant guiding presence.
>
>
btw with
>more people in the household
>you tend to have more
>goods available.
That depends on the ages and ability to work of the people in that household. If you have four wives and sixteen children, all under the age of ten (for example), the only thing in plenty of supply is going to be used clothing. But let's say some of those sixteen children are boys who get old enough to take part-time jobs, and some of the other kids are old enough to help raise animals or crops. Suddenly the picture is looking much better. But until those kids get old enough to really help out, the family is really going to struggle every day.
Tita
Netcurtains
01-03-2002, 08:36
LAST EDITED ON 01-03-02 AT 07:38 AM (GMT)[p]Matt Ch26. V7 "HEAD"
I did not say they were having a "relationship" I said femininity - you are putting more into my words then I said.
It was IMMEDIATELY after seeing this JUDAS betrayted Jesus - Ch26. v14.
Some men do not like empowered women.
I didn't say "relationship", either--you brought that up. I just said femininity. BTW, what makes you think this woman was Mary?
Netcurtains
01-03-2002, 20:02
LAST EDITED ON 01-03-02 AT 07:06 PM (GMT)[p]Mary Mag and and "another Mary" seemed to be the ones associated with the burial of Jesus. I assumed but it could be any woman - it does not not really matter who it was (I think). To my mind the MEN objected and one then went on to betray Jesus.
Another negative aspect of polygamy - having half sisters and half brothers might make incest more common. To avoid this some islamic families (apparently - so this might be an old wifes tale) do not allow brothers and sisters to play with each other after a certain age. Sad (if true). come on - get rid of this thread - its not right (IMHO).
Salam to alL
Just want add my 3 cents!!:)
Now i dont want to go on about this, the issues have been dealt by both super (if i may say so) sisters!
Now regarding this;
"....I'm sure it's supposed to be more than that, but let's be honest: for at least some men, it is about sex and having lots of kids...."
This comment does 'strike' me, kids, is something that i think everyone wants, isnt it? those nights? small clothes, crying? but they do bring a lot of money at the end or is it trouble? :)
Now this should help you tita; (from article i gave you)
"..Although it is risky and contingent on many prerequisites, as explained earlier, polygamy is far better than negligence and infidelity, hypocrisy and insecurity, immorality and indecency. It helps men and women to solve their difficult problems on a realistic and responsible basis. It brings down to a minimum many psychological, natural and emotional complications of human life. It is a precautionary measure to be applied in the best interest of all parties concerned. Yet it is no article of Faith in Islam nor is it an injunction; it is merely a permission from God, a solution of some of the most difficult problems in human relations. The Muslims maintain that legal and conditional polygamy is preferable to the other courses that many people take nowadays, people who pride themselves on nominal marriage and superficial monogamy. The Muslim stand is this: under normal circumstances, monogamy is not only preferable but is the rule. Otherwise, polygamy may be considered and applied if necessary....."
I hope others here also contribute thier knowledge.....
Sadiq!
-------------------------------
"Oh Allah, enrich me with knowledge, adorn me with gentleness, honour me with piety and beautify me with health", Aameen
Now reading this before i depart, i saw this netty!!
"...you will get perverts converting to Islam (seriously) and ordinary people staying well away. Is this what you want? To back up my statement ...."
Now isnt this against the rules....?
I post the rules again;
Rules of Forums:
1. The Forum provide discussion services free of charge to anyone who wishes to join.
2. Insults, harassment, threats, or inflicting any harm on anyone, including those who participate in the Forums, are not permitted.
3. Any insulting remarks on the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), his family, companions, or Muslim scholars means an expulsion from the Forums. The same rule applies to the Holy Qur'an and the traditions of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
Now i will call your comment 'pervert' insulting to islam and to muslim members here.
Now you see one way and i see another way, but somtimes what you are seeing is something that is black, but you keep on saying it is blue. But it is black, so your comment does not effect the increase of the muslims and non muslims coming to islam. So the truth is that every kind of country in the world is embracing islam and it is all written in black and they are converting. Rules are there to keep in shape.
Sadiq!
Please do continue tita and others...
Sadiq!
-------------------------------
"Oh Allah, enrich me with knowledge, adorn me with gentleness, honour me with piety and beautify me with health", Aameen
Netcurtains
02-03-2002, 11:21
LAST EDITED ON 02-03-02 AT 10:51 AM (GMT)[p]Hi,
it wasn't meant as an insult. It is just my belief (I did say UK).
I am a typical male man (lol) and of course men (especially teenagers) have day-dreams (and it has been on movies as well) of "islamic" harems of women. Boys that actually do have lots of girl friends (in the REAL western world) are normally trouble making 'alpha' males. An 'Alpha' male wants to be in charge and dominate his surroundings. He will want to dominate "his" women.
Many people in prison are probably 'alpha' males and people in prison are often drawn to Islam - Mike Tyson (is that an example)?
A 'normal' man/boy feels incredibly lucky when he has a girl friend. After about 10 years of marriage he (or she) might begin to day-dream of an affair. They might actually have an affair. The marriage will either carry on (recover after the 'fling') or they will split-up. I feel much happier with the concept of an "affair" then "poligamy". But I think both are wrong - just one more wrong then the other. Even with poligamy and death sentences for adultary 'affairs' still occur in Islamic countries.
Netty.
Netcurtains
02-03-2002, 23:26
LAST EDITED ON 03-03-02 AT 00:35 AM (GMT)[p]Hi Tita,
Apologies. I have now read the Luke account. So the story is in Matthew,
Mark and Luke.
As you might know I believe the bible sometimes has "hidden" codes and
messages. So, adding the TWO accounts of the stories together (which I feel
we should do (the words head/feet and leper/pharisee - I feel are codes -
IMHO)). The code, I feel is for us to COMPOUND the two accounts. Thus I get
this compounded account(which I grant you could be wrong):
A sensual woman (with no head covering) covered Jesus from HEAD to FOOT in
very expensive oil (possibly paid for from "church funds"). The woman
applied the oil in what could only be considered a very sensual manner (for
example she used her hair in part of the process). The male disciples were
upset, Judas, who looked after the "churches" money was apalled and at that
moment decided to betray Jesus.
Jesus and the early gospel writers considered this momement of EXTREME
IMPORTANCE as we are told to tell this story WHEN EVER the Gospel is told
(this is in both Matthew and Mark). This story, therefore is CENTRAL to
CHRISTIANITY. In the LUKE account Mary Magdalene was mentioned a couple of
verses later so some people assume she was the sensual lady - I agree with
them. A man called Simon was mentioned in both accounts (one as a leper and one as a pharisee). The excluded (leper) can be the real teachers (pharisee). Simon means
a ROCK and Magdalene means FORTRESS. The names might be part of a code. Are women the excluded teachers?
The joint "chief" witness to Jesus rising from the dead was Mary Magdalene.
At the time of the gospel a woman's word counted for little. Jesus makes
this woman CENTRAL to the Christian message. It was Marys account of Jesus
rising from the dead that we must believe (as christians).
2000 years later science proves women indeed to have BETTER MEMORIES then
men - they are possibly the BEST WITNESSES.
From a web site about Peter:
"
You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble. But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name—
"
interesting. Add that to this (simon Peters surname is Bar-Jonah which means:
"
‘Bar' means son. ‘Jonah' means ‘dove.' Combined, the surname of Simon means having the revelation of the Holy Spirit. . . . ‘Bar-Jonah' means son of the Holy Spirit.
"
So there you have it a FEMALE rock and HOLY SPIRIT-ish Surname - SIMON BAR-JONAH. I'm thinking the "real" first leaders of the christian church after Jesus died were Women.
Netty!
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Greetings and good day to all.
Hey, Netty...for your information, the issue of polygany in Islam, the permission as well as responsibility for a man to take on more than one wife...is something totally and entirely different than Hollywood's depiction of harem's...and certainly the harem depicted in Hollywood is as far from 'islamic' as it can possibly be. The harem's that you are referring to were depicted by Hollywood as large groups of women in waiting for their turn with their master/owner...yet the true islamic marriage...whether monogomous or polygamous...is a true man-woman relationship of love, caring, understanding, and mutual agreement between the parties involved. There is absolutely no comparison.
And...another thing that I would like to stress that Br. Sadiq touched upon...that this polygany issue is more of a responsibility than it is a pleasure issue...for it is a great responsibility of the man to obey the commands and directives of Allah, as well as a great responsibility to take care of the family (whether that be one wife or more, and the resulting children).
Thought that you were a journalist, Netty...at least that is what you once claimed in one of your posts. So..act as a responsible journalist, and explore and discover before you claim to know things. For...it is quite obvious that you know little, if anything, about what polygany entails.
Lulua.
>Your assumptions about my assumptions are
>incorrect.
I'm not making assumptions Im going w/ what your typing. Which you seem to jump from one thing to another.
>I can tell you if Polagamy
>is a selling point for
>Islam in the UK you
>will get perverts converting to
>Islam (seriously) and ordinary people
>staying well away. Is this
>what you want?>>
First Polygyny is not a "selling" point for islam. If someone wanted polygamy in all its forms they could simply have no religion. Islam does not equate to polygyny alone, it is simply a maritial CHOICE. And it does not repress female feminity nor deminish her role.
<< To back
>up my statement a significant
>(by this I mean more
>then chance) of captured Islamic
>"terrorists" seem to have come
>from the UK and some
>of those seem to have
>previous criminal records.
>
And?? we can say this about many 'terrorists' around the globe, who have similiar criminal backgrounds have similiar cultural backgrounds ect ect. Your equation somehow to polygyny on this point is rediculous.
>Think of your kids. Think of
>your daughters - is this
>want you want for your
>daughter or do you want
>this:
If my daughters and I have two, choose a polygynous marriage this is their choice. They always have a choice , the same for my son if he chooses this form of marriage his choice. As long as they are all happy it bothers me none.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
>
>
>Another negative aspect of polygamy -
>having half sisters and half
>brothers might make incest more
>common. To avoid this some
>islamic families (apparently - so
>this might be an old
>wifes tale) do not allow
>brothers and sisters to play
>with each other after a
>certain age. Sad (if true).
>come on - get rid
>of this thread - its
>not right (IMHO).
I don't know where you get your 'information' and i'm using that term loosely.
No "half" brother of rull brother and 'half' sister and full sister can marry. No milk siblings can even marry. This is not an issue since such marriages are prohibited in Islam to begin with.
and I dont know what "islamic" families who don't allow their brotehrs and sisters to play after a certain age, maybe you mean cousins??
As for this thread, it matters none if you think it is right or not.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
>How can the father be "always
>available" for his children if
>he has dozens of them?
> The man in Utah
>who was just prosecuted for
>polygamy has five wives and
>32 children. I doubt
>he even knows their birthdays,
>let alone has any time
>for one-on-one conversations with them.
>>>
The man in Utah I'll deal w/ him first, Most of his marriages would not be legal in islam. He married sisters, a no no mothers and daughters another no no and he provided for none of them He didn't work depended on welfare for his family. Another no no. However the man knew all his children spent every day w/ his children, having no job helped, could tell you all their names and days they were born. He prided himself on that.
Traditionally Muslims who have married multiple wives don't have dozens of children. Life expectancy was rather low until recently thorughout the world.. add in infant mortality.. well i'm sure you can get the picture.
In islam we are taught that not only do parents have duties and rughts upon their children, but children also have duties and rights upon their parents. Children are prized amoung most of Muslim families. So being there for thier children, even when they sometimes ranged in numbers to the teens (which I have seen on several occasions) the children are always close, and have very close relationships w/ their fathers. A father will be a father regardless.
>I hadn't thought of that side
>of it, but the fact
>remains that the father is
>going to be a rather
>distant figure in many of
>the children's lives, not a
>constant guiding presence.
>>
speaking personally from families that I know, this is not the norm. Again the family is very close especially between siblings and the father. Many times it is an aspect in their cultures, they eat together, pray together, celebrate different occasions together. Unlike many "modern american" families who eat on the run, and don't do many activities togther.. this was the norm when I grew up and it was just me and my brother :)
>
>That depends on the ages and
>ability to work of the
>people in that household.
>If you have four wives
>and sixteen children, all under
>the age of ten (for
>example), the only thing in
>plenty of supply is going
>to be used clothing. >>
:) and a need for alot of aspirin.
Generally speaking, although this will change from circumstance to circumstance. You'll find that men marry, have children w/ the first wife than marry at a latter date to another woman. When their finicially able to remarry this is a huge factor. And there is a wide range of ages. Children that are thirty w/ new born siblings.. it is something that has amazed me. And generally most Muslims from various regions have extended families living together or in the same area even today. But again this can change from culture to culture. I think part of it is we understand it w/ western concepts which isn't necessarily the case.
In "modern" western families such situations work out good as well. I know a few Americans who have such marriages and wouldn't want it any other way. There are always bonuses to their relationships of course this is not to assume it is always a bed of roses :)
Btw the utah guy got prison didn't he?? what happened to all his children?
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Netcurtains
03-03-2002, 10:17
Hi,
lol - no I'm no journalist.
I'm in IT.
Netcurtains
03-03-2002, 11:14
LAST EDITED ON 03-03-02 AT 12:56 PM (GMT)[p]Hi,
incest does not mean marry - it simply means sex between closely related people. I would say sex between a half-sister/brother is more likely then sex between a full-brother/sister and therefore polygamy is making incest more likely (IMHO). I have now studied a good range of web sites.
Polygamy will also cut down the gene pool in an area and this will lead to people marrying people who are genetically very closely related. This will lead to genetic disorders.
Marrying cousins will become common place (if poligamy is commonplace). Inbreding is scientifically provable to be bad.
Netcurtains
03-03-2002, 14:51
Weird.
I write "alpha males".
In todays Sunday Papers a big article on Alpha Females:
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/article/0,,178-224361,00.html
Hi Netty,
Well, I'm TOTALLY speechless. I could have many, many things to reply to this message (starting with, how on earth did this ever get into a discussion on polygamy???), but in deference to the purpose of this site I suggest we continue this via private email. This is just too weird.
Peace to you,
Tita
Netcurtains
03-03-2002, 19:20
LAST EDITED ON 03-03-02 AT 08:55 PM (GMT)[p]Hi,
We could make it a three way email.
I am in contact with one of the holy spirit web site owners.
He is an american with three girls (I have two boys and a girl).
My email address is steamship@zoom.co.uk
Please email me - I might sound nutty - and of course I am a little eccentric.
(in St John's version of events the woman is actually called Mary).
Netty!
LAST EDITED ON 03-03-02 AT 09:16 PM (GMT)[p]http://www.maghrebonline.nl/images/shahada.gif
http://www.maghrebonline.nl/versie3/archief/khotba/images/polygamie.gif
http://www.maghrebonline.nl/images/besmilah2.gif
I seek refuge in Allah against the cursed Shaitan,
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, we seek His help and ask for his pardon. We take refuge in Allah from our wrongs and bad deeds. Who ever been guided by Allah will not be misled, and who ever has been misled, he will never be guided. I bear witness that there is no God except Allah -no associates with Him- and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and messenger. God's peace and blessings be upon him and his family.
Dear brothers and sisters, assalamu 3alaikum,
There for a lot of people the ideas Islam and polygamy are being strong connected and since it is considered as something nasty, I shall try to enlighten the veil about this subject.
Polygamy is the situation wherein a person has more partners. Unfortunataly man often speaks somewhat negatively about this. And as long as muslims here know to take an apologetic position, without much knowledge about this subject, then the prejudice and the misunderstanding will stand for a longer time:
[li]Is polygamy typical something of the Islam ?
[li]Is polygamy per definition immoral ?
[li]What does the Islam actually say about polygamy(polygynie) ?
[li]Why no polyandrie ?
Is polygamy typical something (only) of the Islam ?
When we look at the Judaism and the Christianity, both worldreligions, than it seems that polygamy is certainly not unknown there. It is striking that the most prophets from the old testament were polygame. (Abraham had more than 1 wife, David had hundred and about Salamo it is even said that he had 700 wifes and 300 concubines). The amount of having wifes for kings was determinded on 18 later; for the normal man 4 (Dictionary of the Bible). Also the Talmudists hold themselves to these numbers for the jews (Encyclopedia Biblica).
Only at the beginning of the 11th century (four centuries after the arrival of the Islam!) polygamy was prohibitted in the Judaism. However, polygamy was still applied in the Middle Ages, and till today still by jews in islamic countries.
Also under christians polygamy did exist: Charlemagne had two wifes and a lot of concubines; Philip von Hessen and Frederick William II of Pruisen married two women with the blessing of the Lutheran church. Luther self spoke with great tolerance about polygamy, with refering to the patriarch Abraham.
Why is polygamy seen as something "typical islamic" then by some people ?
Just like the judaism and christianity, islam doesn't give a prohibition. But in contrast with the judaism, the christianity and perhaps some other religions too, the Islam treats this subject clearly and gives some legal rules and restrictions. This permission limits the number of wifes (4), so that it even meant a limitation to the Arabs and others at the time of the revelation of the verse, who sometimes married with 10 or more women at the same time:
[li]Being righteos towards all women is an obligation. This is applied to the accomodation, food, clothes and attention. The husband is totally responsible for this. When he doubts to satisfy this, the Qoran advises him: "then óne". Allah says:
If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (4:3).
[li]The demand for justice closes for the man the possibility that he can marry as much as women as he wants for pleasure. Also the concept of concubine or "second wife" is closed, because all women have the same status and thus can claim the same things from their husband and have identical rights. This means also that according to the islamic law, that when a man stays in shortcoming towards one of his wifes, that she can ask for this reason a divorse.
[li]The marriage in the Islam is a civil contact, that only acceptable is when both parties have given their permission. This means i.a. that a woman can never be forced to marry a man who already has a wife. Besides the woman can set in the contract a monogam marriage as a condition.
Polygamy as a sollution in some situations
Examples:
A man who finds out that his wife is infertile and wishes instinctively to have children and heirs can do two things:
[li]Suffer for the rest of his life under the fact that fathership is being deprived from him.
[li]Divorce from his infertile wife and marry another woman who is not infertile.
In lot of cases both solutions cannot be considered as the best alternative. Polygamy has as a advantage to keep up the
matrimonial relation without the man being denied about the fathership of his children.
A man whose wife became chronically ill could have one of the following alternatives:
[li]He can suppres his instinctive sexual needs for the rest of his life.
[li]He can divorce from his ill wife at the moment when she actually needs his sympathy the most and marry another woman so that he can satisfy his instinctive needs on a legal manner.
[li]He can make a compromise by keeping his wife and secretly take one or more illegal sexual partners for himself.
The first solution is against the human nature. Islam acknowledges sex and sexual needs and foresees in legal means for their satisfaction.
The second solution is obviously less sympathic, especially when there is talk of love between two sides. Besides, divorcing is prescribed by the Prophet of the Islam as "something what is permitted but most hated by Allah (under the permitted cases)".
The last solution is obviously against the islamic doctrine, which forbids illegal sexual relations of any form.
Why no polyandrie ?
Polyandrie is the situation wherein a woman has more husbands. It would be a impossible case for a woman to share her attention to more husbands while she is pregnant or suckles a baby. Besides, in such a case the question about the fathership, and thus of idendity and law of succesion, would stand for loose screws.
A man can, in a manner of speaking, beget children by more women and still have his hands free, whether for work or battle. A woman is for 9 months pregnant and still after that connected for a long time for looking after her child. It is then also precisly for this reason that she has the right for protection and subsistence, and even for that she doesn't have to care for. Without that supply her position would be unjust.
(Translated from Dutch; excusez moi for the grammar errors).
Subhnallah! Thannkyou for that article above...
Now i also have a article, i was just browsing my HD and i found this ariticle i saved some year ago...
......
Question: Why is a man allowed to have more than one wife in Islam? i.e. why is polygamy allowed in Islam?
Answer:
1. Definition of Polygamy Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygamy where a man marries more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted; whereas polyandry is completely prohibited.
Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than one wife?
2. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says," marry only one". The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible does one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had several wives.
In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (960 C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife.
3. Hindus are more polygynous than Muslims The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages between the years 1951 and 1961 was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims. According to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to Muslims. Earlier, there was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the Hindu scriptures.
Let us now analyze why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife.
4. Qur’an permits limited polygyny As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an:
"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one." [Al-Qur’an 4:3]
Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them.
In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says:
"Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women...." [Al-Qur’an 4:129]
Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to have more than one wife.
Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Dont's:
i. ‘Fard’ i.e. compulsory or obligatory
ii. ‘Mustahab’ i.e. recommended or encouraged
iii. ‘Mubah’ i.e. permissible or allowed
iv. ‘Makruh’ i.e. not recommended or discouraged
v. ‘Haraam’ i.e. prohibited or forbidden
Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.
5. Average life span of females is more than that of males By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the females.
During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers.
6. India has more male population than female due to female feticide and infanticide India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighboring countries, in which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one million female fetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have more females as compared to males.
7. World female population is more than male population In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are ***s i.e. sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million ***s. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.
8. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has
twenty five million ***s). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.
Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first.
In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honorable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life.
Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become public property. Islam prefers giving women the honorable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second.
There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.
............
Question: If a man is allowed to have more than one wife, then why does Islam prohibit a woman from having more than one husband?
Answer:
A lot of people, including some Muslims, question the logic of allowing Muslim men to have more than one spouse while denying the same ‘right’ to women.
Let me first state emphatically, that the foundation of an Islamic society is justice and equity. Allah has created men and women as equal, but with different capabilities and different responsibilities. Men and women are different, physiologically and psychologically. Their roles and responsibilities are different. Men and women are equal in Islam, but not identical.
Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verses 22 to 24 gives the list of women with who you can not marry and it is further mentions in Surah Nisa’ Chapter 4 verse 24 "Also (prohibited are) women already married"
The following points enumerate the reasons why polyandry is prohibited in Islam:
1. If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present.
2. Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman.
3. Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle.
4. A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex.
The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry.
.............
I hope this helps you members here and discuss.!
--------------
BinZiad
The truth is not known by the men, the men are known by the truth.
---------------
Well, that's surely been a good discussion so far! Now, in light of the responses above, a question for the Muslim women on this board:
If your husband were to come to you and state that he wants to take another wife, what would your response be? Would it depend on why he wanted another wife, or any other circumstances? Of course, for all I know, some of you may already be plural wives, in which case I would love to hear how the transition from a monogamous marriage to a polygamous marriage took place.
And to the men (we must be fair! :-)
Under what circumstances would you consider taking another wife, and how would you approach it with your current wife? Or, if you have already taken this step, why did you do it and how did you handle it?
Peace to all,
Tita
>Well, that's surely been a good
>discussion so far! Now,
>in light of the responses
>above, a question for the
>Muslim women on this board:
I will not answer this, for i am not a Wuman (:) )!! Ill let the sisters do this.
>
>If your husband were to come
>to you and state
>that he wants to take
>another wife, what would your
>response be? Would it
>depend on why he wanted
>another wife, or any other
>circumstances? Of course, for
>all I know, some of
>you may already be plural
>wives, in which case I
>would love to hear how
>the transition from a monogamous
>marriage to a polygamous marriage
>took place.
>
>
>And to the men (we must
>be fair! :-)
Of course!!
>Under what circumstances would you consider
>taking another wife, and how
>would you approach it with
>your current wife?
Now i will answer this, based on what i 'think' i will do. I am not married yet, but i approach this question, subhanallah. I hope brothers who are married help this issue too.
Bascially i will take another wife, if the sitaution is worse, meaning there are too many widows in that certain country and if it will improve thier lifes. I might consider a wife, if she has a number of children and she has lot her husband, then it might be option for me. BUT for now, i am looking for my first wife the inshallah i will get married, if it is requred of me. cappich!
Or,
>if you have already taken
>this step, why did you
>do it and how did
>you handle it?
I hope others here handle this issue, come on brothers..
>Peace to all,
>Tita
Same to you and everyone...
Sadiq!
-------------------------------
"Oh Allah, enrich me with knowledge, adorn me with gentleness, honour me with piety and beautify me with health", Aameen
Forget marrying 2 or 3 women...Handling one alone is already difficult enough. :)
(No I dont think I will ever marry with more than 1 woman).
>Hi,
>incest does not mean marry -
> it simply means sex
>between closely related people. I
>would say sex between a
>half-sister/brother is more likely then
>sex between a full-brother/sister and
>therefore polygamy is making incest
>more likely (IMHO). I have
>now studied a good range
>of web sites.
>
This is rediculous. Your assumption because one is not a "full" relation that they will be more apt to have sex w/ a 'half' relation is based on nothing. If this is the case than much of the world should be diseased by incest because half siblings can and do occur w/ our w/out polygyny. your grasping at straws here.
>Polygamy will also cut down the
>gene pool in an area
>and this will lead to
>people marrying people who are
>genetically very closely related. This
>will lead to genetic disorders.
>
>
Your grabbing at thin air trying to support your opposition w/ some "science" People marry close relations w/ our w/out polygamy.. it is a cultural practice that is not dependent on polygamy. And even in areas that have high practices of polygamy marrying such close relations are taboo.
>Marrying cousins will become common place
>(if poligamy is commonplace). Inbreding
>is scientifically provable to be
>bad.
bolderdash.. you have no evidence to back up this claim. Polygamy in all its forms has been common for centuries.. but "inbreeding" (btw we aren't animals we don't inbreed or mixbreed) has no higher rates due to polygamy.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
I wouldn't mind a polygamous relationship as long as the circumstances were correct. I would of course fist question is my husband able to care for another woman, why is he looking for another wife, and who is this other wife.
My husband comes from a polygamous family, and believe me he has enough dealing w/ me, three growing children, and a demanding job to look for another one at this point in his life :)
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Netcurtains
05-03-2002, 21:37
http://www.world-federation.org/MAB/Articles/cousin_marriage2.asp?dept=MAB&subcat=Articles
This one lists many sources of information:
Some sources for "scientific" articles (I'm not sure as I have not read them all):
http://www.consang.net/Global_Prevalence/content/01AHBWeb2.pdf
>http://www.world-federation.org/MAB/Articles/cousin_marriage2.asp?dept=MAB&subcat=Articles
>
1. this is a shia article, not that i mind but youd should learn to distinguish valid sources amoung muslims as you continue discussing issues with them
2. this article does not link any increase of marriage between cousins due to polygamy. Which was the suggestion you made
>This one lists many sources of
>information:
>Some sources for "scientific" articles (I'm
>not sure as I have
>not read them all):
>http://www.consang.net/Global_Prevalence/content/01AHBWeb2.pdf
besides many references for information on marriages w/in a family.. you stil have not established any proof that due to polygamy one is more apt to marry a cousin. This was your assertion it is on you to back it up or admit that it is based on assumptions rather than fact.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Polygamy IS allowed by Allah.....
However it has conditions. Not anyone can marry for just like this... I mean there are rules.
first the wife MUST KNOW. Its better than many westerns sleeping around behind the wife's back.
second, the man is allowed to marry so that things are legal and if any kids are born, they are born in marriage not in sin.
thirdly, many times, there are women who need help and support... there are more women in this world than there are men... this is a known fact.
so in order to support all women, men must marry more.
whether women agree or not...this is not my problem. We women are emotional and so on. However, there are many women who are able to deal with it and live happily. so if they have no problem.... why should we have a problem!
vancouver
19-03-2002, 16:13
Many are missing the all important point on this thread. It should not depend on what society allows but on what God's mindset is. We are supposed to strive to have the mind of God and God has always totally disapproved of sexual relations with more than one partner(wife/husband). He even gave guidance to those who wished to divorce the wife of their youth and marry another to the effect that one should stay married until death(sexual relations with another could also break the marriage vows). God married Adam and Eve and it was his will that a man would leave his father and mother and take a wife(not several). A true Christian or Moslem would never be in a situation of having more than one wife. Even Abraham was wrong to take the servant girl of his wife and have a child through her. This was shown to be disapproved by God through the problems that ensued because of Abrahams wrong action. But God forgave him and gave him an heir in the form of Isaac who came to be in the Messianic line.
first of all.... Prophets do not do things out of their will...they follow the rules of God... so did Ibrahim... I am sure he was allowed to take another wife... this is not a sin!
Secondly, christians generally say its a sin to take another wife... according to their faith.... according to islamic religion... a man is allowed to marry if he keeps certain conditions... and thus... it is not a sin...!!
The prophet peace be upon him was married to more than one woman... this is not a sin! So please get over it! If you personally don't like it... there is no rule that says u have to marry again... whether ur muslim or not... if u like to have more than one lady.. and the ladies don't mind... why should anyone stop you??? Now the only thing that would stop you is God.. and Allah said men can marry up to four wives!! Here is the limit!
So... if a man wishes to marry one, two, three, or four.. keeping in mind what re marrying means... then he is free to do so!
peace to all
vancouver
20-03-2002, 01:46
Family ***
Monogamy was the original standard Jehovah God set for the family. Although polygamy was later practiced, polygamy was always against the original principle that God laid down. However, he tolerated it until his due time to restore his original standard, which he has done in the Christian congregation. (1Ti 3:2; Ro 7:2, 3) Under the Law covenant he recognized the existence of polygamy and regulated it so that the family unit was still kept intact and operative. But it was Jehovah himself who said: "That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh." And it was his Son who quoted these words and went on to say: "So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together let no man put apart." (Ge 2:24; Mt 19:4-6) The record indicates that Adam had only one wife, who became "the mother of everyone living." (Ge 3:20) Noah's three sons, who began the repopulation of the earth after the global Flood, were all sons of one father and one mother, and each son passed through the Flood with but one wife.-Ge 8:18; 9:1; 1Pe 3:20.
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