View Full Version : Can Salvation be reached through Christ?
The problem I have with Christian thought is the concept of 'original sin'. By this doctrine, a child is born sinful (& therefore punishable?). I cannot accept this. All children are born innocent. Does a 3-year-old go to hell? They may be mischevious at times but their intentions are nothing more than to experiment to find out the rules.
Without original sin there is no need for any idea of a great event to remove this burden from human beings. The idea that Jesus (peace be upon him) was crucified to take away the sin of man looses its meaning when sin enters and leaves life in the same way it has always done - through the actions of individuals; there is no need for 'salvation' except through repentance and forgiveness of God (as Adam did, as Abraham did and as all believers until the beginnings of Christianity did and they were not Christians.) ; there is then no reason to accept the divinity of Christ or that his mission was profoundly & essentially different from that of previous prophets.
Original sin makes the whole concept of sin confused in Christianity. How do I know if I did something wrong? I didn't someone else did and I get the blame for it!
Another thing I find confused is the idea of sacrifice. The Christian idea seems to be that "the innocent (such as a lamb) must die to save the sinful. (i.e. Christ must die to save man). This seems to miss the point that sacrifice is where people give up something they value highly. I might sacrifice my time, money etc.Who sacrificed what in the story of Christ's crucifixion? Certainly no human being. And how can God sacrifice something. - He owns everything & has absolute power over everything.
How can he give up anything?!
This is just one aspect of what to me seems the basic problem with Christianity: If Christ died to atone for our sins then this great act must have changed something about the way to salvation, i.e. that before the act people had a certain route to salvation and that after the act the route to salvation is profoundly different. Indeed this seems to be the claim at the heart of Christianity. But if God fundamentally changes the way he judges people in different times from being harsh to being easier, then this can hardly be justice! On the other hand, if there is no fundamental change in the route to salvation, then why all the fuss? - it doesn't really matter whether Jesus died on the cross or not.
Besides, what evidence do we have that Jesus actually died on the cross? We have no physical evidence, we have no accounts of eye witnesses, all we have is the hearsay evidence of 1 person. This sort of evidence would be inadmissable, even if the event
happened yesterday, in a court case to prosecute someone for any minor offence. Yet it is acceptance of this event which determines whether or not Christianity condemns 80% of the worlds population and which guarantees the remaining 20%
slavation! - For the (sinful?) disbelief in such a barely credible event there seems a huge price to pay.
The Story of Creation
There are several places where the Qur'an describes aspects of the creation.
The Bible describes the creation as having taken place in six days followed by a day of rest. In the Bible a 'day' is explicitly the interval between two successive sunrises or sunsets. There can be no question that this story is wrong. The very mechanism of the Earth rotating around its axis was not fixed in the earliest stages of creation described in the Bible.
In contrast to this the Qur'an while also describing creation as taking place in 6 'days' never connects this word with a set period. In fact, in the Qur'an a day in the sight of Allah (in this instance judgement day) is described as 50,000 human years. (Surah 70: Verse 4) The use of the word yawm in Arabic can equally well 'mean period of time' as it can mean 'day'.
A significant passage of the Qur'an is Surah 41, Verses 9 to 12:
(Muhammad Asad translation)
"Say: Would you indeed deny Him who has created the earth in two aeons? And do you claim that there is any
power that could rival Him, The sustainer of all the worlds?"
For He [it is who after creating the earth,] placed firm Mountains on it [towering] above its surface, and bestowed [so many] blessings on it, and equitably apportioned its means of subsistence to all who would seek it: [and all this He created] in four aeons.
And He [it is who] applied His design to the skies, which were [yet but] smoke; and He [it is who] said to them and
to the earth, "come willingly or unwillingly!" - to which both responded, We do come in obedience."
There are a few points I would like to highlight in these verses. First the use of the phrase "The sustainer of the worlds". Note that this uses the plural rather than the singular 'world'. This points to the strong possibility of other worlds like our own. This idea would have been well outside conventional thinking 1400 years ago, but these days it seems not just possible but very highly likely. A more speculative interpretation is that this refers to the many worlds of the 'many worlds cosmology' favoured by some physicists at the moment.
Another point is trying to understand what makes up the two aeons (periods). To me this is obviously a reference to the fact that we are in the second cycle of solar evolution. The earth is made up of material that resulted from the first life cycle of a sun and our sun is a 'second generation' sun- two periods. The last of the verses quoted above confirms this point by referring to the what the sky and earth was made from - smoke. A simple but absolutely accurate description of the remains of the burnt out first generation sun!
Greetings,
As to you questions pertaining your topic, I would try my best to answer them according to my knowledge.
Your statement:The problem I have with Christian thought is the concept of 'original sin'. By this doctrine, a child is born sinful (& therefore punishable?).
In this respect, after Adam ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, sin entered the human race. Death came to be upon us & it will remain until the second coming of Christ. As a child is borned into this world, he/she inherits the sinful nature that was resulted from Adam's deed. Besides that(in my opinion), a baby hasn't the capability of committing sins thus God being merciful & loving wouldn't condemned a baby to hell should the infant depart from this world. To illustrate my point on sinful nature, when a baby grows up, in the course of his/her upbringing, especially at early ages, they can be very playful & mischevious. In most circumstances, should they commit an error, they will most probably lie to their parents in hope that they will not be punished. This illustrations in 1 way or another proves that a child, though being young, are able to commit sin without being taught. This is the result of Adam's deed in the Garden of Eden.
Your statement:. The idea that Jesus (peace be upon him) was crucified to take away the sin of man looses its meaning when sin enters and leaves life in the same way it has always done - through the actions of individuals; there is no need for 'salvation' except through repentance and forgiveness of God (as Adam did, as Abraham did and as all believers until the beginnings of Christianity did and they were not Christians.)
God is just. For everything that is done, God judge impartially & when sin entered the human race, God cannot simply say, "Oh, my beloved children, I love you so I forgive you". As Christians, we believe that God being just has to do something in order to break the power of sins, thus the death of Christ on the cross is the "payment" for our sins.If what you claim was the case, then God wouldn't be just & Muslims wouldn't have to continue to do good works in order to attain salvation like what they believe in. The term Christians refer to the people who believe in the mission, purpose & authority of Jesus Christ according to the Bible. We believe that the OT & NT is the Word of God & that the NT is the fulfillment of the OT.
Your statement:there is then no reason to accept the divinity of Christ or that his mission was profoundly & essentially different from that of previous prophets.
Why not?? His mission on Earth was indeed different that previous prophets as previous prophets were here to guide the people before God's plan could be establish & to basically foretell the coming of the Messiah. Another reason why Jesus' mission on Earth was quite different than the others was because He came to die for our sins.
Your statement:Original sin makes the whole concept of sin confused in Christianity. How do I know if I did something wrong? I didn't someone else did and I get the blame for it!
Each an everyone of us have what the secular term calls it: conscience. If you are about to do something wrong, how would you not know it?? If you were about to hit your friend, wouldn't you know that you are doing something wrong? God judges you when you continue to do something wrong even when you are aware of it.
Your statement:Another thing I find confused is the idea of sacrifice. The Christian idea seems to be that "the innocent (such as a lamb) must die to save the sinful. (i.e. Christ must die to save man). This seems to miss the point that sacrifice is where people give up something they value highly. I might sacrifice my time, money etc.Who sacrificed what in the story of Christ's crucifixion? Certainly no human being. And how can God sacrifice something. - He owns everything & has absolute power over everything.
How can he give up anything?!
Ok, let me ask you. Why don't God just forgives us & take away temptation? Why don't God just let us be good children to him, never letting Him get angry & always obeying Him?? Isn't God' Son something very valuable? Jesus' sinless life & authority & by His death on the cross enabled the power of sin to be broken. This is testimony of God being just. God made the universe & set "rules". In my opinion, as a mere human being, I believe that God is above all & awesome & at the same time I believe that God is just & fair, thus rules set must be obeyed. That's why Jesus' death is the only way that the power of sin can be broken.
Your statement:This is just one aspect of what to me seems the basic problem with Christianity: If Christ died to atone for our sins then this great act must have changed something about the way to salvation, i.e. that before the act people had a certain route to salvation and that after the act the route to salvation is profoundly different. Indeed this seems to be the claim at the heart of Christianity. But if God fundamentally changes the way he judges people in different times from being harsh to being easier, then this can hardly be justice! On the other hand, if there is no fundamental change in the route to salvation, then why all the fuss? - it doesn't really matter whether Jesus died on the cross or not.
Being harsh?? Being easier?? Jesus' said,"Nobody goes through the Father, except through Me". This verse clearly states that those who doesn't believe in Him will not enter the Kingdom of God & those who doesn't belive in Him shall burn in the fire of hell. How would you define easier??
Your statement:Besides, what evidence do we have that Jesus actually died on the cross? We have no physical evidence, we have no accounts of eye witnesses, all we have is the hearsay evidence of 1 person. This sort of evidence would be inadmissable, even if the event
happened yesterday, in a court case to prosecute someone for any minor offence. Yet it is acceptance of this event which determines whether or not Christianity condemns 80% of the worlds population and which guarantees the remaining 20%
slavation! - For the (sinful?) disbelief in such a barely credible event there seems a huge price to pay.
They are numerous secular evidence of Jesus crucification. I am sure if you are a little open minded & searched adequately, you will find them. Testimony of Jesus crucification is too recorded in the 4 Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, all written by different people & at different places. At this point, you have to notice that the 4 Gospels compliment one another. On the other hand, let me ask you, since there are in fact no external evidence & witnesses to Muhammad's supposedly receiving his wahyu from God, how could you say his account is actually from God?? This is contrary to Christianity. Jesus' crucification was witnessed by a number of people & later 3 days after Jesus arised, He appeared to more than 500 people.
My theory: From what I have learned, Muhammad was an accomplished trader & living in times of dark ages(with mass murder & the lack of sound knowledge), logically speaking, it would be quite difficult surviving in such harsh environment at the same time successful. I take it that Muhammad has considerable knowledge & street-wise capability. The notion that Muhammad can't read or write(in hope to gain credibility of the Koran) is questionable at this point. The Hadith too, being part of Islam is used to explain certain revelation for God as claimed by Muslims. Yet, the Hadith contains numerous obvious contradictions.
Om_Mohammed
16-01-2001, 08:30
You say that the hadith has some contradictions...and I do not argue with that. The hadith is not...and has never been claimed to be...the word of God. What the hadith is...is the rendition from the companions of prophet Mohammed, and their successors, of the sayings, practices, and actual life and lifestyle of the prophet himself...giving us a picture of what life was like during that time, as well as giving us a better picture of how the prophet put into practice for himself, his household, and his companions, as well as mankind for ages to follow, the message which is embedded in the Quran.
The Quran only is the word of God...not the hadith itself. The hadith is the remembrance of the implementation of that word.
You say that you believe in the OT and NT of the bible...that is good...but have you seen or found or realized the many contradictions within that bible? There are many...and on many subjects...all within any one given version. It raises the question as to the validity of the truth of the remaining existence of the bible. Also...it is a well-known fact, that even the deacons of the churches, and the bishops, and those in the highest authority of the hierarchy of christianity...admit quite openly...that the bible was written...throughout the history of mankind...and at times other than during the lifetimes of the prophets...it was written by men. Perhaps good and well-intentioned men, but normal, everyday men, all the same. Neither were they authorized and true prophets, nor were they receptors of the message of the word of God. So...please tell me...how could it be that what you have today called the bible...is the word of God? It is the understanding, I believe, of all of mankind...that only those who are chosen and selected as prophets and messengers...who recieve the direct and divine inspiration of the word of God...to deliver to their peoples.
If you are going to judge the station of Jesus according to your bible...then please look at how many times did he say (even in today's versions) or admit that he is merely a man...and that God Almighty is the creator? And...if he was actually chosen for the 'sacrifice' as is the basis of the christian belief...then why...at the time of the event...would he ask for it to be taken away?
If you look to Jesus' words...he said: 'I am the way...'...You may notice that the term here is...the 'way'...and not the final destination. Therefore, indicating, that he who may follow him, follow his instruction, and follow his example, then he may also find that final destination of bliss in heaven. However, he never did say that he himself was the destination. There is a big difference.
I suggest that you read of the Quran...perhaps it may shed some light on this life, and the next, for you.
Om Mohammed.
as-salaamu aleikum,
Brother Asif has raised a very interesting point here, and one I have pondered on many times myself:
I might sacrifice my time, money etc.Who sacrificed what in the story of Christ's crucifixion? Certainly no human being. And how can God sacrifice something. - He owns everything & has absolute power over everything.
How can he give up anything?!
How can the Creator of all things sacrifice something? How is it anyhting for Him to give up a mere shell (as they claim the body of Christ was)? They claim Jesus is God, and that Jesus beat death, if you're God, then you don't cheat death, because you are beyond death. If you know that you can ressurect yourself and come back to life, then how is it cheating anything? I think something's been cheated here, but it isn't death. I think that after pondering this, most people will come to the conclusion that the Christian doctine is not on a very strong foundation.
Ibrahim.
as salaam alaikum
One of my issues with the original sin theory is that it makes man a Creator.. outside of God. The christian teaching is that man was created to be in the garden (unlike islam where man was created to be a khalifah on earth) and he was w/out the ability to sin (unlike islam where man is created w/ the ability to sin) so man is in essense a Creator of not only action.. but the creator of sin. This makes mankind gods in the sense of them being creators like God is a creator.
ma salaam
nzingha
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Greetings,
Your statement: I might sacrifice my time, money etc.Who sacrificed what in the story of Christ's crucifixion? Certainly no human being. And how can God sacrifice something. - He owns everything & has absolute power over everything.
How can he give up anything?!
-God came to Earth for a purpose...to show & lead us to follow him...this is prophesied long ago, even before the time of Jesus...Isaiah 7:14 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and shall call His name Immanuel" Further reading..Isaiah 7:18 "And it shall come to pass in that day, That the Lord will whistle for the fly" & in verse 20 "In the same day, the Lord will shave with a hired razor, with those from beyond the River, with the king of Assyria" this verses are clear evidence that the Lord God Himself will come in the flesh...& there is NO such thing as Christians believing in 3 gods...Malachi 3:6 " For I am the Lord, I do not change"..the present of God as a wholeness cannot be represented by numerical values for the mystery of God is uncomprehendable by us humans...any attempts to "understand" or "comprehend" God in comparison to worldly materials will no doubt bring forth confusion....
- Jesus' death on the cross was the ultimate price to pay for human sins...Jesus sacrificed His life...His resurrection, brought Him back alive BUT no longer as a permanent basis on form in the flesh...the temporary time when Jesus was seen on Earth after His ressurection was to fulfill His sayings before His crucification & evident of this was the transition from humanly flesh to that of heavenly body when He rose to be seated at the right hand of God....
On the other hand, consider Islam....where is the fairness in it all?? There is no salvation in Islam....
The OT was a preparation for things to come & to be completed...In Islam, the main focus is on your prophet Muhammad which is said to be the last prophet of God...What he did, merely was just the settings of some moral issues(any rational human being can do that) and he is automatically regarded as God's last prophet....what fulfillment did he bring that justified the Torah?? Nothing.... Even his claim that he was sent by God is a big question mark....meditating in a cave & then saying that an angel appeared before him & made him God last chosen servant??? No witness...No prove...
Jace Hildebrand
04-04-2001, 17:38
first of all, it never says in the bible that babies were born sinners.Jesus was born and Satan didn't poke him. i believe that babies-13 year olds don't go to hell, but when they are able to decide between God's will and their own, then they are accountable.
and another thing. in the bible about creation, you cannot fit God in the box of your mind. logic cannot contain him. if he said that he created the world in six days, then he did.
in THE TABLE 68 it says that. Would Allah direct us to a book of lies? No.
Sulaiman
07-04-2001, 13:23
Hello Firefly
If you could answer me only two things please:
1)You seem very fascinated by the idea that Christ died for our sins.Now could you please indicate a passage IN THE BIBLE where he ACTUALLY SAYS that he is here to DIE FOR OUR SINS, please?
2)Secondly, could you also indicate a passage IN THE BIBLE where Christ SAYS he is here to create a NEW religion other than the one that existed before his arrival i.e. Judaism ?
About the contradictory hadith, do not speak in a vacuum, bring the hadith here.
Thanks
Sulaiman
>first of all, it never says
>in the bible that babies
>were born sinners.Jesus was born
>and Satan didn't poke him.
Actually "buddy" the teaching of original sin is not that one is necessarily sinful, such as a new born baby. But that one has the ability *to* sin, contrary to mans original form of creation (according to the christian teachings) So it is not that a baby is born a sinner, but rather that a child is now born w/ an ability to sin thanks to Eve or Adam and Even depending which part of the bible you read.
>i believe that babies-13 year
>olds don't go to hell,
>but when they are able
>to decide between God's will
>and their own, then they
>are accountable.
>
This is in line with Islamic teachings, that a child is not held accountable for their actions in regards to punishments until they reach the age of majority.. there being no set age though.
>and another thing. in the bible
>about creation, you cannot fit
>God in the box of
>your mind. logic cannot contain
>him. if he said that
>he created the world in
>six days, then he did.
>
on that we agree.
Nzingha
alhamdliyesu
09-04-2001, 15:16
actually we were created with the ability to sin, because we were created with the power of choice. we could choose to reject God and sin, or choose not to.
thank you good sir for listening
Greetings to you Sulaiman,
First and foremost, I would like to state that nothing that I have said here is based on my own whims and fancy. I rely on evidence and sound reasoning as I am for the Truth and nothing more. The reason I participate in this forum is because I am dissapointed that many Muslims(in fact almost all) have so many misconceptions regarding Christianity to which I will try my best to clarify certain matters. This is with my assumption that you all here are interested in the Truth but if this forum is mainly about "defending" Islam and "trying to show Christianity is wrong" then my purpose being here is redundant.
1) Your answer can be found in Isaiah 53.
--> Matthew 23:34,"Therefore,indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes...."
--> Matthew 26:63, "But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him,"I put You under oath by the living God. Tell us if You are the Christ(note:the Messiah), the Son of God!"
--> Matthew 26:64," It is as you said..."
2) Regarding your second question, first of all, Jesus DID NOT come here to so-called CREATE a new religion.
--> Matthew 5:17,"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."
The OT is basically what I like to refer to as a "guideline" for things to come.It allows man to see that when Jesus came, it is with proof and not of mere allegation. The authority, power and purpose of Jesus is clearly stated and demonstrated in the NT. With this too, is also the fulfillment of the OT. Together, they are one and complete.
You see, Sulaiman, my sources regarding the contradictions in the hadith is based on Islamic resources. I found an Islamic website quite sometime ago which admits there are contradictions in the hadith but states that it requires "explaination" to justify it. I have read through the contradictions and "explainations" they put forth in their website and I have to say that those explainations are of a series of complicated reasoning and with a lot of assumptions. I would love to post the address for the website here but apparently when I tried to visit the site again, the page couldn't be found.
To Jace Hildebrand,
Would you be so kind as to read my first posting?? If you are still unable to understand what I have written or wish that I could clarify certain things, you could post again and let me know but please allow some time before I could reply them as I am facing my final exams in 2 months time, so I wouldn't be a frequent visitor here. Thanks.
Isaiah 6:9," And He said, "Go and tell this people:
Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.
Yours truely,
Firefly....
Hello,
Not that I want to speak for Sulaiman.. but he did ask for wording of Jesus which lays claim to him sacraficing himself for the sins of others. Isaiah 53 of course does not fit what he asked for. I'll post more on Isaiah 53 next.
>The reason I participate in
>this forum is because I
>am dissapointed that many Muslims(in
>fact almost all) have so
>many misconceptions regarding Christianity to
>which I will try my
>best to clarify certain matters.
actually there are some of us here who converted to islam from backgrounds of christianity (in one form or another) so this assumption that we have "misconceptions" is not accurate. It is simply we don't agree with the christian meassage.. nor do we agree with the "interpretation" of christians regarding the bible. this does not mean we have "misconceptions"
>1) Your answer can be found
>in Isaiah 53.
I'm a bit uneasy about the christian interpreation of Isaiah being a prhophecy about Jesus pbuh specifically about him being sacraficed for our sins.
For one i don't remember jesus pbuh having leprosy.. for this is the understanding of the hebrew word "stiken" in verse 3 is it not? What was Jesus pbuh afflicted with? I am refering to what disease.. for this is what is indicated in the verse.
Also it states quite clearly that this "lamb to the slaughter" didn't open his mouth. This being emphasised by repition.. but Jesus said quite alot to his oppresors didn't he?
According to verse ten this person lives a long life.. and has offspring. I dont recall the bible indicating either of this. Even Muslims and christians agree that Jesus was not married and had no children. So how does such a thing fit in the "prophecy"?
This "prophecy" doesn't appear to be a prophecy at all, rather just Isaiah relating about his times, rather than times to come.
>--> Matthew 23:34,"Therefore,indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes...."
what point are you trying to make with this verse?
>--> Matthew 26:63, "But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him,"I put You under oath by the living God. Tell us if You are the Christ(note:the Messiah), the Son of God!"
>--> Matthew 26:64," It is as you said..."
>
actually you get a better picture at the real intent of the writing when you compare translations.
New International Version (NIV)
Matthew 26:64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, ""<*1> You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, [1] hereafter you will see <*2> THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and <*3> COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.''
King James Version (KJV)
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
New King James Version (NKJV)
Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
NIV formatted (New Testament) (NIV-IBS)
Matthew 26
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Matthew 26
64
Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Darby Translation (DARBY)
Matthew 26
64
Jesus says to him, *Thou* hast said. Moreover, I say to you, From henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Matthew 26
64
Jesus saith to him, `Thou hast said; nevertheless I say to you, hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming upon the clouds, of the heaven.'
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
Matthew 26
64
Jesus answered him, `Yes, I am. Also I tell you that after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the One who has all power. You will see him coming on the clouds in the sky!'
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
Matthew 26
64
Jesus said unto him, "Thou hast said; nevertheless I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
So truly this "interpreation" you give is not so accurate. It should be understood as you have said it not me.. this was their whole basis of trying to kill off Jesus pbuh he tended to get in the way of their misconduct.. which you can find Jesus pbuh clearly stating in Matthew 23 which you referred to earlier. This was not a claim he made.. this is the claim the made on him. This was the claim they needed in make in order to be "justified" in having the ok of the law makers to kill him.. they needed to show that he was in some way saying that he was better than the law makers themselves.. even they didn't actually believe the claims of the Jews.
>2) Regarding your second question, first
>of all, Jesus DID NOT
>come here to so-called CREATE
>a new religion.
>--> Matthew 5:17,"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."
>The OT is basically what I
>like to refer to as
>a "guideline" for things to
>come.It allows man to see
>that when Jesus came, it
>is with proof and not
>of mere allegation. The authority,
>power and purpose of Jesus
>is clearly stated and demonstrated
>in the NT. With this
>too, is also the fulfillment
>of the OT. Together, they
>are one and complete.
>
However majority of christians negate the OT all together (unless it meets some purpose) they ignore the law.. they partake in things forbidden.. and basically do things which Jesus pbuh never taught. For as you said.. he came to fufill the law.. not abrogate it. But why do chrisitians understand it to be negated? Jesus pbuh problem w/ the jews of his time was that they a) adhered to some laws but negated the essense of the laws b) corrupted the laws .. Jesus pbuh was trying to show a way of balance.. but the Jews have gone to their extremes as the christians have gone to the other side of the extreme.
but this is a larger topic indeed
I'll address your other comments
> You see, Sulaiman,
>my sources regarding the contradictions
>in the hadith is based
>on Islamic resources. I found
>an Islamic website quite sometime
>ago which admits there are
>contradictions in the hadith but
>states that it requires "explaination"
>to justify it.
why not bring forth some of the contradictions.. although you are addressing "hadith" which is not the Word of Allah.. and each report must be verified on its own merits. But we can address some of the contradictions of hadith.. I do wonder do you know what hadith is?
I would like to address some of your other comments you made the last time you were here as well.
<<On the other hand, consider Islam....where is the fairness in it all?? There is no salvation in Islam....>>>
I don't know how much, if any, you know about Islam. But there is "salvation" in that we are told by Allah what is necessary for forgiveness and admitance into paradise. It is by belief and deeds (you should be familiar with such a concept considering this is in the NT as well) we are taught how to seek and recieve forgiveness from our Creator.. How more fairer can it be?
<<The OT was a preparation for things to come & to be completed...In Islam, the main focus is on your prophet Muhammad which is said to be the last prophet of God...What he did, merely was just the settings of some moral issues(any rational human being can do that) and he is automatically regarded as God's last prophet....what fulfillment did he bring that justified the Torah?? Nothing....>>>
A) your first remark about Muhammad pbuh leads me to believe you know littel about him as a man.. or anything else. First in Islam the MAIN focus is on our Creator.. Allah.. not a Prophet or a messenger.. be it Muhammad pbuh Jesus pbuh or Abraham. And we are told in the Qur'an not to make a distinction between any Prophet.. we accept them all on the same level.
As for "merely" setting some moral issues.. he did much more than that. While he did address moral issues, as well as legal and spiritual by the guidance of Allah. This total teaching has impacted billions of peoples over the years but don't just take my wod for it
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modem history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes This man moved not only armies, legislation, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then-inhabited world; and more than that he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls.... His forbearance in victory, his ambition which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire, his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death-all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold: the unity of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with the words. Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he? "
- Lamartine Histoire de la Turquie, Pans 1854, Vol. 11, pp. 276-77.
<<Even his claim that he was sent by God is a big question mark....meditating in a cave & then saying that an angel appeared before him & made him God last chosen servant??? No witness...No prove...>>
Actually the revelation was given over a period of twenty three yers.. it all didn't come in one day in the cave. There were many witnesses to the events of his life.. and documented as well. Here an illiterate man.. given such a thing as the Qur'an.. amazing in itself.
Nzingha
Greetings Nzingha,
Your statement: actually there are some of us here who converted to islam from backgrounds of christianity (in one form or another) so this assumption that we have "misconceptions" is not accurate. It is simply we don't agree with the christian meassage.. nor do we agree with the "interpretation" of christians regarding the bible. this does not mean we have "misconceptions
--> The Bible preaches about our Creator, the love that God has for us, the things that have been done in the past and things to come in order for us to love Him, how we should live our lives accordingly. May I ask you which message that you do not agree with?? The Bible is interpretated by many scholars over time and its accuracy in terms of interpretation have been proven over time. So, in what way, are your claims that our interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, justifiable??
--> The reason I mentioned the word misconception is due to the fact that at the point of infancy in my walk with Christ, I was confronted by a Muslim scholar. His views and ways of reasoning have gave me a valuable insight of how Muslims "rationalise" the theology of Christianity. Even though, I do not regard this as an isolated case, however, I noticed that this method of "rationalising" is some sort similar to that of many Muslims around the world. It is indeed quite sad as if only Muslims would understand what they are reading in the Bible, they will see how their "rationalising" can be corrected. An excellent example, would be you Nzingha.
Your statement: I'm a bit uneasy about the christian interpreation of Isaiah being a prhophecy about Jesus pbuh specifically about him being sacraficed for our sins.
For one i don't remember jesus pbuh having leprosy.. for this is the understanding of the hebrew word "stiken" in verse 3 is it not? What was Jesus pbuh afflicted with? I am refering to what disease.. for this is what is indicated in the verse.
Also it states quite clearly that this "lamb to the slaughter" didn't open his mouth. This being emphasised by repition.. but Jesus said quite alot to his oppresors didn't he?
According to verse ten this person lives a long life.. and has offspring. I dont recall the bible indicating either of this. Even Muslims and christians agree that Jesus was not married and had no children. So how does such a thing fit in the "prophecy"?
This "prophecy" doesn't appear to be a prophecy at all, rather just Isaiah relating about his times, rather than times to come.
-->It appears to me that what you are attempting to do is to make Isaiah 53 into a contradiction when it is not. Let's examine the chapter thoroughly. In relation to the word stricken, in the specific chapter refers to "struck or wounded".
Isaiah 53:4 "Surely He borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows
Yet we esteemed Him stricken
Smitten by God, and afflicted
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgement
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the trangressions of My people He was stricken
Thus, it does not refers to any sort of disease to the matter.
-->In chapter 7, it is said that "Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb of slaughter" Your statement, however, does not concide with the present situation. When Jesus was "led as a lamb of slaughter" it began with the capture of Jesus. The trial of Jesus clearly shows the Jesus did not show any retaliations toward His oppressors but only stated the Truth when been questioned by the governor presiding the trial.
Matthew 27:12 "And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.
Matthew 27:13-14 "Then Pilate said to Him," Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?"
-But He answered him not one word....
--> I have failed to see how you manage to conclude that as mentioned in Isaiah 53:8 that the term "His generation" refers to Jesus being married and having children. Aren't you aware that God refers us as His generation???
Zephaniah 3:10 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia
My worshippers,
the daughter of My dispersed ones,
Shall bring My offering.
This is just one of the many examples that God refers us as His generation. I am becoming really worried about the way you conclude things Nzingha.
--> Regarding verse 10, again you demonstrate your bizzare conclusion. Let me ask you, in what context does the prolonging of days in this specific verse God is refering to?? Days as in literally or years?? How did you reach your conclusion?? Let's observe verse 12, "Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors....." Hence, your conclusion doesn't make any sense. In your claim, the person "lives a long life", however, he poured out His soul unto death. It appears to me that you are making a few assumptions here.
--> Finally, how could this chapter be related to Isaiah about his times??? In chapter 7, Isaiah was told by God regarding the coming of a Messiah and in chapter 53, is the characteristics of the Messiah and of things that would occur.
--> Matthew 23:34,"Therefore,indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes...."
Your question: what point are you trying to make with this verse?
--> What I wanted to demonstrate to Sulaiman is that Jesus being God has said those very words in Isaiah 53 and 7.
Your statement: So truly this "interpreation" you give is not so accurate. It should be understood as you have said it not me.. this was their whole basis of trying to kill off Jesus pbuh he tended to get in the way of their misconduct.. which you can find Jesus pbuh clearly stating in Matthew 23 which you referred to earlier. This was not a claim he made.. this is the claim the made on him. This was the claim they needed in make in order to be "justified" in having the ok of the law makers to kill him.. they needed to show that he was in some way saying that he was better than the law makers themselves.. even they didn't actually believe the claims of the Jews.
--> Let's analyse the statement I have made that is Matthew 26:63-64. In order to get the picture, it is essential, you look at it wholely. Let's begin with Christ's missionary. The Pharisees were aware of the presence of Jesus and through Jesus' missionary, He preached about the fulfillment of the OT..which the Pharisees rejected. Along side, with their corrupted practises, they seek to terminate Jesus by using *Jesus preaching.
Matthew 21:23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said,"By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?"
Isn't it clear that the chief priests are against Jesus for they do not consider Him as the Messiah?? Now, let's look again at Matthew 26:63-64. In order to rid off Jesus, the chief priests use the preaching of Jesus against Him. Because they do not understand the Holy Trinity of God, they presume that Jesus spoke blasphemy, a crime which is punishable by death during those times. So, what you are speaking is only the partial truth. The chief priests wanted Jesus dead and to do so would be to "rationalise" Jesus preaching as mentioned in Matthew 26:64 as Jesus simply stated the Truth about His purpose and His power here on Earth. I would recommend that you read and understand the book of Matthew and not simply plucking a few verses and coming up with your own derived conclusion.
Your statement: However majority of christians negate the OT all together (unless it meets some purpose) they ignore the law.. they partake in things forbidden.. and basically do things which Jesus pbuh never taught. For as you said.. he came to fufill the law.. not abrogate it. But why do chrisitians understand it to be negated? Jesus pbuh problem w/ the jews of his time was that they a) adhered to some laws but negated the essense of the laws b) corrupted the laws .. Jesus pbuh was trying to show a way of balance.. but the Jews have gone to their extremes as the christians have gone to the other side of the extreme
--> Are you saying that you never broke the law?? If so, how do you justify your statement that Christians ignore the law?? Could you please enlighten me on the "forbidden things" Christians partake?? I would recommend the book of Romans for your reading. I feel that it is sufficient enough to explain your questions regarding the law. However, if you still have queries, you may post them & I will try my best to answer them.
Your statement: why not bring forth some of the contradictions.. although you are addressing "hadith" which is not the Word of Allah.. and each report must be verified on its own merits. But we can address some of the contradictions of hadith.. I do wonder do you know what hadith is?
--> Though I have read through the contradictions in the hadith, I don't have it with me now and I can't remember all of them. I am trying to find the website though and in time, no doubt I will post them here.
Your statement: I don't know how much, if any, you know about Islam. But there is "salvation" in that we are told by Allah what is necessary for forgiveness and admitance into paradise. It is by belief and deeds (you should be familiar with such a concept considering this is in the NT as well) we are taught how to seek and recieve forgiveness from our Creator.. How more fairer can it be?
-->Hmm...I gather you are familiar with this verses:
But as for those who believe and do good works, for them are the Gardens of Retreat-a welcome(in reward) for what they used to do. And as for those who do evil, their retreat is the Fire. Whenever they desire to issue forth from there thence, they are brought back thither. Unto them it is said, "Taste the torments of the Fire which ye used to deny(Sura al-Sajda 32:19,20)
However let's consider one Tradition in the Mishkat:
Abu Huraira reported that the Prophet of Islam said," No one of you will enter Paradise through his good works." They said,"Not even you, O Apostle of God?" "Not even I," he replied, "unless God cover me with His grace and mercy. Therefore be strong and morning and evening, nay every moment, try to do good."
Another Tradition:
Jabir reported that the Prophet of Islam said: "No good works of yours can ever secure heaven for you, nor can they save you from hell-- not even me, without the grace of God"
This clearly shows that according to Islam, no one can obtain salvation unless God's mercy rests upon him. So if God should forgive by his mercy alone, this would make Him unjust. A defect in being of God.
Your statement: Actually the revelation was given over a period of twenty three yers.. it all didn't come in one day in the cave. There were many witnesses to the events of his life.. and documented as well. Here an illiterate man.. given such a thing as the Qur'an.. amazing in itself.
--> In the Bible, the very beginning of Jesus missionary is the testimonial of Jesus' authority seen by so many people...
Matthew 3:5
and in Matthew 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying," This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
This was recorded in the open and seen by many. His disciples spoke a lot regarding the Gospel even though some of them were just fishermen. A testimonial of God's power.
2 Peter 1:16 For we did not cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty."
Firefly...
Hello
You stated>>> The Bible preaches about our Creator, the love that God has for us, the things that have been done in the past and things to come in order for us to love Him, how we should live our lives accordingly. May I ask you which message that you do not agree with?? The Bible is interpretated by many scholars over time and its accuracy in terms of interpretation have been proven over time. So, in what way, are your claims that our interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, justifiable??>>>
I'll give you a few examples of my disagreements with christian interpretations of the bible.
1. Jesus dying for the sins of all mankind.. that salvation is found through Jesus pbuh
2. the Inherited sin of Adam and Hawa (you know her as Eve)
3. The theory of a trinity.. god, jesu, holy spirit.. being one in the same yet three seperate beings
Many others but this is just a sample of my disagreement with the christian interpretations.
You stated>>>> however, I noticed that this method of "rationalising" is some sort similar to that of many Muslims around the world. It is indeed quite sad as if only Muslims would understand what they are reading in the Bible, they will see how their "rationalising" can be corrected. An excellent example, would be you Nzingha. >>>>
actually it is simply stating facts of the text which you chose to use in order to justify the teachings of Jesus pbuh dying for the sins of others and that salvation is through him and him alone. It is not "rationalizing" rather pointing out diffferences within the text to what your trying to make it to be in relation to.
You stated??>It appears to me that what you are attempting to do is to make Isaiah 53 into a contradiction when it is not. Let's examine the chapter thoroughly. In relation to the word stricken, in the specific chapter refers to "struck or wounded".
Isaiah 53:4 "Surely He borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows
Yet we esteemed Him stricken
Smitten by God, and afflicted
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgement
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the trangressions of My people He was stricken
Thus, it does not refers to any sort of disease to the matter. >>>>
actually it is you who is wrong. The hebrew word which is used is in relation to Leprosy.. was smitten by God..or "striken by God".. this is about leprosy.. which Jesus never had.
This same term is used in Le 13:3,9,20 and 2Ki 15:5
This would also explain why this suffering servant is not seen as having beauty, and is despised and rejected by the people. Not much beauty in lepors.. despised by people throughout time.
-->In chapter 7, it is said that "Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb of slaughter" Your statement, however, does not concide with the present situation. When Jesus was "led as a lamb of slaughter" it began with the capture of Jesus. The trial of Jesus clearly shows the Jesus did not show any retaliations toward His oppressors but only stated the Truth when been questioned by the governor presiding the trial.
Matthew 27:12 "And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.
Matthew 27:13-14 "Then Pilate said to Him," Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?"
-But He answered him not one word.... >>>
Your defeating yourself here.. for jesus pbuh did have much to say.. he was not lead away saying nothing not standing up for himself and against those who were trying (but unsuccessful) to kill him.
John 18 :33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? 35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
As we see Jesus pbuh did have some things to say.
You stated>>>> I have failed to see how you manage to conclude that as mentioned in Isaiah 53:8 that the term "His generation" refers to Jesus being married and having children. Aren't you aware that God refers us as His generation???
Zephaniah 3:10 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia
My worshippers,
the daughter of My dispersed ones,
Shall bring My offering.
This is just one of the many examples that God refers us as His generation. I am becoming really worried about the way you conclude things Nzingha. >>>
Don't worry about me i'm just fine.. but perhaps you should be more worried about yourself. The word here, from what I understand is "zera" and when applied to people always indicates actual decendents.. children.. not a figure of speech of some sort. Or used in the way in which you are implicating. so let us stick with the actual text itself.
You stated>>>> Regarding verse 10, again you demonstrate your bizzare conclusion. Let me ask you, in what context does the prolonging of days in this specific verse God is refering to?? Days as in literally or years?? How did you reach your conclusion?? Let's observe verse 12, "Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors....." Hence, your conclusion doesn't make any sense. In your claim, the person "lives a long life", however, he poured out His soul unto death. It appears to me that you are making a few assumptions here. >>>
Again in verse 10 there is mention of him seeing his offspring.. his children.. hence the prolonged days here would be the normal span of seeing ones children. Thsi leper.. having days prolonged by his Lord.. although the people choose to bypass the judgement and prison.. and chose to cut him off from the rest of the society.. and here the Lord allows him to see his offspring. this is about a man.. not Jesus pbuh.. for this man was afflicted by disease.. shunned by his people for this disease.. and cut off from society due to this disease. The people incured sins by doing this.. unlike the christian interpreation that this person is taking on the sins of the people.. and dying for their sins to save them.
How you come up with a problem w/ living a long life.. w/ pouring out ones soul until death i don't understand. this person was alone, cut off due to disease, but this did not detere his faith.. he still turned to his Lord.. he still turned to his Creator.. pouring out his soul.. in submission to his Lord. The problem lies in your initial understanding of the verse.. I don't come in with a preconcieved judgement of the verse.. I see what is there.. not what someone tells me what is there.. only what is there.
you stated>>> Finally, how could this chapter be related to Isaiah about his times??? In chapter 7, Isaiah was told by God regarding the coming of a Messiah and in chapter 53, is the characteristics of the Messiah and of things that would occur. >>>
You start all the way in chapter seven.. ignoring textual changes.. and than want to equate it to the messiah? than if this is so.. than Isaiah 52 must also be about jesus pbuh
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him -- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness--
15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Jesus pbuh is now so disfigured that many were appaled by him? and marred beyond human likeness..?? this is a description of Jesus pbuh as well? or a lepor?
You stated>>--> Matthew 23:34,"Therefore,indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes...."
Your question: what point are you trying to make with this verse?
What I wanted to demonstrate to Sulaiman is that Jesus being God has said those very words in Isaiah 53 and 7. >>
Here we will strongly disagree for I’ll never agree that Jesus pbuh is God.. nor did he ever make such rediculous claims.
->>>-> Let's analyse the statement I have made that is Matthew 26:63-64. In order to get the picture, it is essential, you look at it wholely. Let's begin with Christ's missionary. The Pharisees were aware of the presence of Jesus and through Jesus' missionary, He preached about the fulfillment of the OT..which the Pharisees rejected. Along side, with their corrupted practises, they seek to terminate Jesus by using *Jesus preaching.
Matthew 21:23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said,"By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?"
Isn't it clear that the chief priests are against Jesus for they do not consider Him as the Messiah?? >>>
What is clear is that the chief priests where peeved at this one who came and tried to change what they had going. Their corruption of the law, how they were hyprocrites and continually did wrong.. and all the while claiming some right because of their high status. They felt superiour to Jesus pbuh as well as others.. and here this one angers them because he bodly speaks out.. while others refer to retreat from their transgression.. Jesus pbuh takes the in your face approach.. their take of him being the messiah has no bearing on their disagreements with Jesus pbuh.
>>>Now, let's look again at Matthew 26:63-64. In order to rid off Jesus, the chief priests use the preaching of Jesus against Him. Because they do not understand the Holy Trinity of God, they presume that Jesus spoke blasphemy, a crime which is punishable by death during those times. So, what you are speaking is only the partial truth. The chief priests wanted Jesus dead and to do so would be to "rationalise" Jesus preaching as mentioned in Matthew 26:64 as Jesus simply stated the Truth about His purpose and His power here on Earth. I would recommend that you read and understand the book of Matthew and not simply plucking a few verses and coming up with your own derived conclusion. >>>
Actually I have read the book of Matthew.. and others.. and understand it..I just don’t agree with your interpreation of events. Their charge against Jesus pbuh was false.. they made claims on him that he never made on himself.. for if he did he would as you say.. by the law be guilty of blasphemy.. how does that work?? If he is guilty so much for the innocent lamb of slaughter. This is what they said of him. ..not what he claimed.
You stated>> Are you saying that you never broke the law?? If so, how do you justify your statement that Christians ignore the law?? Could you please enlighten me on the "forbidden things" Christians partake?? I would recommend the book of Romans for your reading. I feel that it is sufficient enough to explain your questions regarding the law. However, if you still have queries, you may post them & I will try my best to answer them. >>>
I’m not christian.. so if I have or have no broken the law is not at issue now is it? I justify my statement that the christians ignore the law.. by their own actions.. Christians eat pork don’t they? Against the law.. the christians do not uphold the sabbath.. I could go on for days how they do not uphold the law.. in their teachings they can’t even get down the major command.. not to worship others besides God.. how can things be right when the basic foundation is incorrect.
You stated>>>Hmm...I gather you are familiar with this verses:
But as for those who believe and do good works, for them are the Gardens of Retreat-a welcome(in reward) for what they used to do. And as for those who do evil, their retreat is the Fire. Whenever they desire to issue forth from there thence, they are brought back thither. Unto them it is said, "Taste the torments of the Fire which ye used to deny(Sura al-Sajda 32:19,20)
However let's consider one Tradition in the Mishkat:
Abu Huraira reported that the Prophet of Islam said," No one of you will enter Paradise through his good works." They said,"Not even you, O Apostle of God?" "Not even I," he replied, "unless God cover me with His grace and mercy. Therefore be strong and morning and evening, nay every moment, try to do good."
Another Tradition:
Jabir reported that the Prophet of Islam said: "No good works of yours can ever secure heaven for you, nor can they save you from hell-- not even me, without the grace of God"
This clearly shows that according to Islam, no one can obtain salvation unless God's mercy rests upon him. So if God should forgive by his mercy alone, this would make Him unjust. A defect in being of God. >>
Qur'an is quite clear that it is not works alone that one enters paradise.. as it is not belief alone in which one will enter. it is both.. belief and works.. of course everything we are blessed with is by the mercy and Grace of Our Creator.. . Allah has told us, sorry for repeating myself because you seemed to miss this part. HOW to obtain forgiveness.. there is no secret about it.. It is our decision to seek the forgiveness that Our Creator will give
so once again.. we are told how to seek forgiveness.. how to obtain paradise.. there is nothing unfair about this as you claimed. For what you originally said.. (and let us not forget this for it is important in order to understand my words) was that there is NO salvation in Islam.. thus you are totally wrong.
You stated>>> In the Bible, the very beginning of Jesus missionary is the testimonial of Jesus' authority seen by so many people...
Matthew 3:5
and in Matthew 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying," This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
This was recorded in the open and seen by many. His disciples spoke a lot regarding the Gospel even though some of them were just fishermen. A testimonial of God's power.
2 Peter 1:16 For we did not cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty.">>>
First this relates to the Message of Muhammad pbuh how? your statement was.. and I repeat.. "Nothing.... Even his claim that he was sent by God is a big question mark....meditating in a cave & then saying that an angel appeared before him & made him God last chosen servant??? No witness...No prove... "
Once again your totally wrong.. "no witness" and there is much proof for those who wish to accept it.
since you want to compare the life of Jesus pbuh to that of Muhammad pbuh there are some things for you to consider.
For one there is virtually nothing known about the life of Jesus pubh until he appeared on the scene at an age of thirty plus. He only dwelled with the people for an extremely short period of time. His message was carried on by very few. This unlike Muhammad pbuh we know about his birth. to his death. He was among the people long before the first revelation came to him. The people knew his character.. he was honest trustworthy and of a respectable family.. His prophethood consisted of 23 yrs.. of which it is recorded by large group of peoples.. both believers and non believers in his message. And unlike the message of Jesus pubh the message of Muhammad pbuh was recorded DURING his time and preserved.. in the hearts of men as well as written. The bible being an interpretation of events.. not even the word of God.. just an 'inspiration' of words.. some long after the time of Jesus pbuh.
Keep in mind that the christian understood teachings of Jesus pbuh is in contradiction to the previous message of which it is recorded that Jesus pbuh came to fulfill not to negate.. and yet muhammad's pbuh message was not. Makes one wonder a bit.
Sulaiman
25-04-2001, 20:16
Dear Firefly.....
I am still waiting for your response to my two simple questions. You never answered them, maybe its because you did not understand them.In that way I can not sipmlify them more than I did then.You seem to say everything BUT answering my question.
Thanx
Sulaiman
Sulaiman
25-04-2001, 20:22
Dear Firefly......
You seem to be flying very high now.I asked you two simple questions and you never answered them.You seem to tell us everything BUT answer my questions.I am still waiting........
Thanx
Sulaiman
Greetings to you Sulaiman,
Well, the reason why I couldn't reply any of the responce here is because I will be facing my finals in 1 month time. However, do not be despair, my finals will end at the end of June. After that, we can spend countless hours exchanging views. Until then, I will look forward to our next meet..:) Oh ya, Sulaiman, if you are really impatient for an answer, I would suggest the following website: www.answering-islam.org
Go the Questions & Answer page, your question I believe is Question number 1. There is your answer.
To Nzingha,
My friend, it has been great exchanging views with you. I hope the moderator would not delete this particular discussion thread. By July, I will be able to reply fully to your responce.
Be at peace...
Firefly
Joe Conaway
30-04-2001, 04:05
I see in life many evidences of Christ, his death, burial and ressurection. There were many witnesses. The guards that actually did the killing, the jews that wanted the killing and the disciples who witnessed the killing from a distance,not to mention his very own mother and the disciple Jesus loved at the very foot of the cross. To make an even clearer point, you dispute the creation as happening in 6 days, are you limiting God? Are you rationalizing God to fit your own perception of science. Twist or bend the rules as you wish, but the truth is more evident of creation than some silly notion the the world is billions of years old and we formed out of monkeys. If we came from monkeys than what are those things in the zoos. Personally I see your bias coming from a muslim perspective. You claim to be serving the same God, that you are tolerant of other religions. How can you be tolerant yet attack in such a manner. If you take away the atoning work of Christ, you take away the very foundation of our religion. I for one am not angry, I despise muslim belief, but please for decensy sake don't attack till you know all the facts. I have never studied the Quran, I heard that it is a moral book and that your god is a just god and a wrathful god. That to me is scarry. Not of your perception but your misperception of God. I believe that God is a just God in that he deals directly with his creation in the manner of their life style, in the manner of their choices. If they choose to be disobedient and never believe in Christ, God's wrath stays on that person, but to those who follow and believe, he is faithful and just to forgive us. God gave the greatest gift to mankind, that is his only begotten son to pay the price for our sins. THAT IS THE ONLY MEANS OF ATONEMENT AND RECONCILIATION WITH GOD!! NO GOOD WORKS, NOR HOLY WAR WILL WIN YOU GRACE. I appreciate your web site and the opportunity to share, I will pray for you in hopes that God will reach in and show you what I have learned and know to be true. Thank you and God Bless,
In His love, Joe
Sulaiman
30-04-2001, 09:18
Poor Joe
You know what Joe? You have said it all.I can not believe that you just wrote telling us that we must not attack Christianity until we know the FACTS and yet you just confessed you have never read the Quraan but you dislike Islam already. What does that make you..............? A pure HYPOCRAT.
Thanks.......forget about praying for us, pray for yourself rather.To tell you the truth it will take a lot of prayers to get rid of that hypocracy in you.
Good luck........you need it very much.
Sulaiman
alhamdliyesu
02-05-2001, 15:07
1.Last supper verse.
2.He came to fulfill Judaism.
When my friend Firefly says that Jesus came to destroy religion, he is saying that Jesus came to destroy the system of the Pharisees.
alhamdliyesu
02-05-2001, 15:21
you misspelled hypocrite(just kidding with you....)
So it takes works to earn favor?
Prayers will work by themselves?
Demons love to say not to pray for them.
Stop being two-faced my brother.
You are nice to me, but hateful to others.
It's pointless to argue with human logic.
God's reasoning is so much more than we will ever understand.
I don't like Islam either, and I don't read the Qu'ran.
Guess what, he wasn't specifically attacking Islam.
He was saying that he doesn't like it and that you shouldn't specifically attack Christianity's base belief until you research it.
He already knows truth and is complete, therefore he despises my definition of religion.
e-mail me if you don't understand.I miss talking to you my friend, where have you gone?
Shalom
Sulaiman
02-05-2001, 19:06
You and I have discussed this for a long time.What really irritates me with Joe is that he like coming across as an all-knowing character with impeccable morals!!! This really gets into me.Who is he to come and pontificate here?????Most of all he lacks the decency that the All-Mighty showered us with...common sense.If he had common sense, his common sense would have DEMANDED that he research about Islam.Like I told you Jace, I AM NOT A BLIND FOLLOWER.I UNDERSTAND my religion fully well and I am prepared to give whatever measure it takes to defend and uphold it.I have come a long way to get where I am right now, I have climbed the tallest of the tall mountains, there is no higher than where I am,I am at the HIGHEST position.Christianity has nothing to offer me....I have researched it over and over.....it is still as it was, CONFUSING,that is why Christians turn to be very angry when you question its makeup, they will tell you its impossible to comprehend.If that is so for whose benefit is it? How is it enriching ourselves?What is it doing here if its not comprehendable by a human mind?.The answer is negetive.Therefore its not capable of producing any good.....the only thing its good at is confuse its followers, even though they realise it does not make sense.....they love it still.That is the kind of DAMAGE it has done to its followers, irreparable damage.
By the way the reason why I spoke about prayers was because Joe was saying he was going to pray for us.If you bothered to read his mail thoroughly you would have seen that.I do not need Joe's prayers, nope, not now not ever.I offer my own prayers.....Joe is in no position to offer prayers on my behalf.....again who is he?
Nice chatting to you.
Sulaiman
Greetings to you Sulaiman,
I will answer your earlier question after my finals but as I was looking through the forum today, I felt compelled to reply your responce.
You see, a lot of Christians(including me), we didn't "decide" to believe in Christianity after we have gone through the Scriptures and compared it with other religions. As Christians, we are revealed by God, His love for & with that assurance, we know by faith that we are for the Truth. The reason why I don't want to bring in this point into my earlier discussions is that for I reason, should I do so, the next day, this forum will be filled with testimonies of converts to Islam & resulting in a non-ending debate on this matter.
Defending one's faith is something we all try to do. Nevertheless, do it in a humble way & with love. It is not for us to judge but for God. As for Joe, I think he is trying to speak his mind on this matter but I don't really agree to the way he presented it. Joe, this is a Muslim forum & we should respect them if we want to continue to have a dialogue with them.
When Joe said he knew of the evidences of work of Christ, he meant that as Christians, we grow in Christ day by day. We grew to be more like Him whether be it at work or at play. The person we are becoming reflects the true way of God.
As you have claimed you have climbed the tallest mountain, swam the deepest ocean, etc..etc, then I think you should reflect the way of your religion in the way you speak & act..etc..etc..but if you are really reflecting the way Islam should be...well, all I can say is..as what Joe has said...I'm scared.
Speaking a little on his mind,
Firefly...
alhamdliyesu
03-05-2001, 15:22
You are so arrogant!
You've climbed the highest mountain?
so what? It's so worthless.
We are all indeed equal. We have all sinned. You are nothing compared to Almighty God. You will never ascend the highest mountain until you understand that you are worthless. I know I'm worthless. WORKS CANNOT SAVE YOU!!!!!!!
Sulaiman
03-05-2001, 19:05
Coool it Jace
I think you missed the point about climbing the mountains.....go read the mail again.
Sulaiman
Sulaiman
03-05-2001, 19:31
> You see, a lot
>of Christians(including me), we didn't
>"decide" to believe in Christianity
>after we have gone through
>the Scriptures and compared it
>with other religions.
-That is precisely my point. How did you get to conclude that Christianity was the right religion?????You just woke up one day and decided so or the holy ghost told you so? What happened?
As Christians,
>we are revealed by God,
>His love for & with
>that assurance, we know by
>faith that we are for
>the Truth.
- First of all, what do you mean you Christians were revealed by God? What is that supposed to mean? Secondly, faith alone doesnot do it....it has to be coupled with good deeds.Have you heard that before?
The reason why
>I don't want to bring
>in this point into my
>earlier discussions is that for
>I reason, should I do
>so, the next day, this
>forum will be filled with
>testimonies of converts to Islam
>& resulting in a non-ending
>debate on this matter.
- What is wrong with debates? That is what this forum is for.We need debates.Bring whatever topic you want....lets debate it and stop being apologetic when there is no need to do so.
> Defending one's faith is
>something we all try to
>do. Nevertheless, do it in
>a humble way & with
>love. It is not for
>us to judge but for
>God.
- Believe it or not Firfly......it is love that makes me reply to your every statement.Had it not been for love, I would have been doing something else.The whole reason I am debating with you is to provide a point of view to you that you are not familiar with....I have nothing to gain here...it all out of concern for you.Please do not get me wrong, I am not judging you but debating with you.I am sure you know the difference between the two.
As for Joe, I
>think he is trying to
>speak his mind on this
>matter but I don't really
>agree to the way he
>presented it. Joe, this is
>a Muslim forum & we
>should respect them if we
>want to continue to have
>a dialogue with them.
-Do not worry about Joe he probably realised that what he was saying did not make enough sense,that is why he is not responding.
> When Joe said he
>knew of the evidences of
>work of Christ, he meant
>that as Christians, we grow
>in Christ day by day.
>We grew to be more
>like Him whether be it
>at work or at play.
-The thing is, unless you know Christ from some other sources, the bible tells us very little about the character of Christ himself.How you can end up growing in someone you know little about is a puzzle.
>The person we are becoming
>reflects the true way of
>God.
-What do you mean the true way of God? Who reflects the false way?Say more on this please.
> As you have claimed
>you have climbed the tallest
>mountain, swam the deepest ocean,
>etc..etc, then I think you
>should reflect the way of
>your religion in the way
>you speak & act..etc..etc..but if
>you are really reflecting the
>way Islam should be...well, all
>I can say is..as what
>Joe has said...I'm scared.
-My religion does not teach me to have a lamb-like character.It does teach good, a lot of it.I deal good with good people, I also deal bad with bad people.Its only natural...and that is what my religion enforces.Its a simple concept of justice......
Thanks for the talk...
Sulaiman
>Speaking a little on his mind,
>
>Firefly...
The question of salvation is one upon which we should accept no compromise, unless of course salvation is not necessary. Philosophically, we can debate this. We can weigh between one idea and another, one book and another. Shall we trust our own understanding? Do I need to be saved? Am I in such a position that even my purest ideals and intentions are suspect? I can perhaps answer this honestly for myself if I care to. Alas, life is so full of diversions, so full of opportunities to gratify my intellect and my flesh that although I start off searching for truth, I may end up finding only what I want, and neglect honesty.
It may be good to use reason and examine the Bible critically, but the question is what do you want? Do you want Truth, or are you content with opinions and ideas in themselves? To talk about Islam and Christianity is to talk about two entities that claim to bear, to follow, to teach,the absolute Truth. Now there can't be two absolute truths.
Certainly, within the realms of Christianity and Islam there are or have been certain teachers or proponents who held views that were in error in respect to the actual teachings of their faith or religion. This doesn't neccessarily impune the faith or religion itself.
Arguments about the trustworthiness of the Bible can be defended and there is an art to both argument and defense.
A lie can defended, and the truth can be obscured. However if the Bible were not trustworthy then its teachings would have no authority. My opinion would have authority over its teachings. Which teachings do I think are ligitimate? Which teachings do I think are tainted? If my search for truth ends with myself as the final authority then it is I who decide what it is true for me, and I must give up hope that there is any absolute Truth beyond myself that is true for all people, for all time. My truth can ony be relative truth, and if truth is only relative then right and wrong are relative.
If there is no absolute Truth then there is no hope. Hatred and love would weigh evenly in the balance because there would be nothing that could with any certainty lend more weight to one or the other.
So, do you hope that there is Absolute Truth?
There can be only one.
As for me, I can do nothing, I am a worm, destitute, naked, blind and wretched. My understanding is full of holes and selfishness. My heart is unrestrained in its vanity. I am a mystery to myself, what can I do? What can I say? I cannot deny the sorrow and the rage that are rooted within me. If I try to clean myself with water from my own well, my pride diverts me from my sickness, and I stand deluded.
I hope that there is One who can save me from this predicament or else I will surely die in bondage and deception, questioning the justice of God like a madman.
Yes, how can we ever see Jesus for who He really is unless we are hungry, unless we are thirsty.
Its true, Salvation is in Christ, for all people. How easy it is to humble ourselves and speak with Him, and let him Heal our being. How hard it is to compromise and live in limbo without demanding to find the absolute Truth.
alhamdliyesu
04-05-2001, 19:32
it really is a masterpiece Jared, truly inspired
Om_Mohammed
05-05-2001, 11:09
Assalaamu alaikum.
Hmmm...quite a discussion going on here, huh?
And...as you claim...brilliant, huh?
Well, let us all reflect a bit, before declaring anyone's comments brilliant. You are implying here...that you shall be saved on your faith alone...without benefit of any of your deeds, regardless if they are good or bad. Then... what brings you here in the first place? Or...why is it that you claim that you become more christ-like day to day...and implying that you become better with that? If goodness or badness has no weight in this equation at all (that as you claim, faith alone will be your salvation)...then why do anything good at all? Why not let your human inclination to do whatever you please take over? Why obey laws (regardless if they are God's laws or man's?)...if there will be no reward or punishment for those deeds?
All of you non-muslims here, although you are welcome to our site...have really no knowledge nor idea about Islam...other than what you have preconcieved...and you are even admitting so, by telling us that you have not read the Quran. To learn about Islam, you should not seek that knowledge from muslims...for muslims are humans, and like all humans, capable and liable to make mistakes, and not follow the religion to it's exactness. However, if you wish to examine and know Islam (mind you...I point out here for you to know Islam...not become muslims...there is a difference)...then you should resort to the source...and that is the Quran. Much like in buying any kind of an appliance for your home, like a dishwasher, or a washer/dryer for example...to know how to properly operate it...you should resort to the catelogue. I know this example is rather simple and common, but ... if you operate such machinery merely on your faith in yourself that you will know what to do by what it written simply on the buttons...somewhere down the line you may run into trouble and make a mistake, and cause a breakdown in the machinery. Perhaps you will not run into any problems, but perhaps also you will, because you did not consult the catalogue. So it is with the religion of Islam...the Quran is the similitude of the catalogue...to understand it properly...you must resort to the catalogue, and that is the Quran.
A warning for all of you...it is quite different from the Bible...both in language, presentation, as well as content and order of that content. It may not make too much sense to you, perhaps because of the order of the content, or the apparent repetition of some topics or reminders or warnings...but as you continue to read thru...it will eventually reveal itself, and reveal it's logic and common sense. I challenge you to read it, to read it with open minds. However, if you choose not to...then none of us here are the losers. It will be you who are the losers...who will have to answer some day as to why...when you were given both the opportunity and the challenge, did you pass it up.
I know much of the Bible...spent long years studying it...and it was exactly that study that led me to understanding Islam better, and realizing what the difference is in these religions, and why was Islam sent to mankind in the first place. Until you read the Quran, you will not understand yourselves, nor do you really have any ground to stand and argue with us here. Your arguments are baseless, and so is your debates. You have no knowledge of Islam. And until you gain some knowledge, then you should not attempt to attack it or to preach your religions here at this muslim forum.
Om Mohammed.
Greetings,
To Sulaiman: Sulaiman, in my post, what I have written is actually a personal experience of mine & which something I think Muslims like you can't understand, however as to not stray to far away from the original argument of this thread, you can write to me at my email add: runesword82@yahoo.com & when I have the time, I will reply your queries.
To Om Mohammed,
Your statement: Well, let us all reflect a bit, before declaring anyone's comments brilliant. You are implying here...that you shall be saved on your faith alone...without benefit of any of your deeds, regardless if they are good or bad. Then... what brings you here in the first place? Or...why is it that you claim that you become more christ-like day to day...and implying that you become better with that? If goodness or badness has no weight in this equation at all (that as you claim, faith alone will be your salvation)...then why do anything good at all? Why not let your human inclination to do whatever you please take over? Why obey laws (regardless if they are God's laws or man's?)...if there will be no reward or punishment for those deeds?
--> I think you are missing the point here. We are not saying that you shouldn't do good deeds! As I have posted earlier, good deeds will not save you. Salvation only comes through Christ. We have fallen short of God's grace & are influenced by worldly things & of humanly rationalisation. When we accept Christ as our Saviour, the Holy Spirit(acting as a spiritual guidance) will lead us in life that is of Christ. However, this is something one has to experience by themselves & can't be explained in black & white.
Your statement: All of you non-muslims here, although you are welcome to our site...have really no knowledge nor idea about Islam...other than what you have preconcieved...and you are even admitting so, by telling us that you have not read the Quran. To learn about Islam, you should not seek that knowledge from muslims...for muslims are humans, and like all humans, capable and liable to make mistakes, and not follow the religion to it's exactness. However, if you wish to examine and know Islam (mind you...I point out here for you to know Islam...not become muslims...there is a difference)...then you should resort to the source...and that is the Quran. Much like in buying any kind of an appliance for your home, like a dishwasher, or a washer/dryer for example...to know how to properly operate it...you should resort to the catelogue. I know this example is rather simple and common, but ... if you operate such machinery merely on your faith in yourself that you will know what to do by what it written simply on the buttons...somewhere down the line you may run into trouble and make a mistake, and cause a breakdown in the machinery. Perhaps you will not run into any problems, but perhaps also you will, because you did not consult the catalogue. So it is with the religion of Islam...the Quran is the similitude of the catalogue...to understand it properly...you must resort to the catalogue, and that is the Quran.
--> An interesting conclusion of yours, Mohammad..but as you can see & read for yourself, the main argument here is "Can salvation be reached through Christ?" I would truely understand that if I came here merely to mouth-bash Islam, then you have every right to ban me. Along with my defence of certain Scripture intrepretations, I made just but a few statements relating to Islam in which I would only like to see your responce, due to the fact that I have heard many conflicting accounts of the matter concerned. What you have said, I really have to say it back to you. Many of you here, even Nzingha, claims that he has read through over & over the Scriptures & understand them...but again pose fundamental questions that I feel are unnecessary IF you have already understand the Scriptures. Whether you have understand the Scriptures or don't want to believe the what the Scriptures says are 2 different things.
Your statement: A warning for all of you...it is quite different from the Bible...both in language, presentation, as well as content and order of that content. It may not make too much sense to you, perhaps because of the order of the content, or the apparent repetition of some topics or reminders or warnings...but as you continue to read thru...it will eventually reveal itself, and reveal it's logic and common sense. I challenge you to read it, to read it with open minds. However, if you choose not to...then none of us here are the losers. It will be you who are the losers...who will have to answer some day as to why...when you were given both the opportunity and the challenge, did you pass it up.
--> It's all about logic huh?? Christians believe in three gods..etc..etc.. I remember I saw somewhere that is written associating Jesus with God would be associating God with partners, therefore blasphemy..logic huh?? God is logic huh? For me, God is uncomprehendable by human minds, I believe God works in a way we can't never understand, His ways, His methods, His reasons..
I accept your challange & in time, when time permits I will examine the Quran. However, there can be only one absolute Truth & I know that Truth is in Christ.
Your statement: I know much of the Bible...spent long years studying it...and it was exactly that study that led me to understanding Islam better, and realizing what the difference is in these religions, and why was Islam sent to mankind in the first place. Until you read the Quran, you will not understand yourselves, nor do you really have any ground to stand and argue with us here. Your arguments are baseless, and so is your debates. You have no knowledge of Islam. And until you gain some knowledge, then you should not attempt to attack it or to preach your religions here at this muslim forum.
--> What are forums for?? I always term my meetings with my Muslims friends as an "understanding" ..basically, I think it is an opportunity for different people of different backgrounds & religions to share their thoughts regarding their faiths. If you are strong & sound in your faith, why should you worry about attempts of others to preach their religions?(this is a general statement, I fully understand the rules of this forum, just want to relate this to your statement)
Firefly...
NzinghaS
06-05-2001, 19:55
Hello,
I would suggest that you learn more about islam and Muslims before making accusations against our beliefs.. I would like to specifically address some of your comments.
>I see in life many evidences
>of Christ, his death, burial
>and ressurection. There were
>many witnesses. The guards
>that actually did the killing,
>the jews that wanted the
>killing and the disciples who
>witnessed the killing from a
>distance,not to mention his very
>own mother and the disciple
>Jesus loved at the very
>foot of the cross.
That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, The messener of Allah" but they killed him not Nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that was shown to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts. With no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for a surety They Killed him not Nay Allah raised him put unto himself and Allah is exalted in power wise: and there is none of the people of the book but must believe in him before his death and on the day of judgement He will be a witness against them. >Quran surah nisa (4) verses 157-159
As you see here Joe, as Muslims we do not believe that Jesus pbuh was actually killed that he was protected by Allah from such degredation. That it only appeared to those around him that he died but in all truth he was not dead. Personally I even find evidence of this in the bible, such as Jesus pbuh bleeding after he was supposed to be dead, Mary Magdeline being told by him that he had not yet gone to his father, that he came out of the cave hungry ready to eat.. showing that he is mortal.. and famished. One could also take into account the minor timing in which he was hung.. as well as other issues. So all of these "witnesses" from his mother to the guards.. yes they thought they saw him die.. but he did not die at all.
>To make an even clearer
>point, you dispute the creation
>as happening in 6 days,
>are you limiting God?
>Are you rationalizing God to
>fit your own perception of
>science. Twist or bend
>the rules as you wish,
>but the truth is more
>evident of creation than some
>silly notion the the world
>is billions of years old
>and we formed out of
>monkeys. If we came
>from monkeys than what are
>those things in the zoos.
First as muslims we believe that the earth heavans and all inbetween were created in six periods.. not necessarily litteral days.. and I'm not sure even all christians would agree on litteral days from the bible. However we don't believe that Allah "rested" on the seventh period.. Slumber does not overtake Him nor does He sleep. Allah Our Creator not being like any of his creation does not need rest.. we do believe that after the six periods of creating the earth heavens and all between that Allah established himself over the thrown.
also as Muslims we do believe in Adam pbuh and Eve.. we do believe that man was created from a single nafs (soul) from this single nafs came Adam pbuh and Eve.. from them scattered like seeds nations. We don't have any teaching of evolution such as we evolved from Monkeys.
> Personally I see your
>bias coming from a muslim
>perspective.
If your unsure of our perspective who's bias are you talking about? I see you only reacting to what you *think* we believe not what we actually do believe.
<You claim to
>be serving the same God,
>that you are tolerant of
>other religions. How can
>you be tolerant yet attack
>in such a manner.
We are tolerant of other religions, but this does not mean that we have to tolerate incorrect belief as we see it nor does it mean that we shouldn't point out problems and issues that we have with other belief systems. BTW i do question our "worshiping" the same "god" for one we do not worship Jesus pbuh we do not worship a created man.. nor do we worship an angel.. Gabriel. ie the holy spirit.. which many (not all) christians do. So if this is ones perception of God than yes you worship not what we worship.
>If you take away the
>atoning work of Christ, you
>take away the very foundation
>of our religion.
I think that this is the foundation of the argument.. that since Jesus pbuh is not a "savior" in what he is made to be.. than your religion is false.
> I for one am not angry,
>I despise muslim belief,
You come across extremely angry which is ok.. but how can you "despise" what you admitedly do not know?
>I have
>never studied the Quran, I
>heard that it is a
>moral book and that your
>god is a just god
>and a wrathful god.
>That to me is scarry.
> Not of your perception
>but your misperception of God.
I would suggest that you try to study the Qur'an see what it is that we believe.. what you claim to "despise".. find out what The Book is truly about instead of "hearing" what something might be. BTW.. Qur'an is the actual word of our Creator.. it is not "merely" a moral book.. but this is a long discussion indeed.
Second I would like to point out your inconsistencies.. or perhaps i'm just toally misunderstanding.. you say "your god is a just god and a wrathful god".. and that this is "scary" and that this is a "misperception of God".. but you go on to say.. and I'll qoute..
"I believe that God is a just God"
"If they choose to be disobedient and never believe in Christ, God's wrath stays on that person"
"But to those who follow and believe he is faithful and just to forgive us"
We (Muslims) have a misconception about God (not god) because God is Just and wrathful.. but what you have just shared.. is that as a christian your belief in God is that He is Just and Wrathful.. how is it not your misconception as well? according to what you just said.. "never believe in Christ" God's wrath stays on that person.. well no worries here Joe.. we believe in Jesus Christ pbuh
> I believe that God
>is a just God in
>that he deals directly with
>his creation in the manner
>of their life style, in
>the manner of their choices.
> If they choose to
>be disobedient and never believe
>in Christ, God's wrath stays
>on that person, but to
>those who follow and believe,
>he is faithful and just
>to forgive us.
>>God
>gave the greatest gift to
>mankind, that is his only
>begotten son to pay the
>price for our sins.
I explain to my children (who are going through some serious terrible twos) that they are responsible for their actions.. that they must be accountable for the bad things that they do. And if they do bad they will be punished (time out in their room) this is a very basic concept that even christians teach their children.. that we are all each accountable for our own actions. Here I with twins, teach my children if my son does something bad.. no matter how much his sister is unhappy when he is punished she can't take away his punishment.. she can't stand in his place.. for this is an INJUSTICE to both of them. He doesn't learn and she of course gets punished for something she didn't do. Again basic teachings for children.. even among christians. Yet here you want us to believe that we are NOT responsible for our actions.. that someone else will be punished for what we do.. that we can get away with everything because someone else is unjustly getting the blame. This is an INJUSTICE.. and goes against basic mores of all cultures.
>THAT IS THE ONLY MEANS
>OF ATONEMENT AND RECONCILIATION WITH
>GOD!! NO GOOD WORKS, NOR
>HOLY WAR WILL WIN YOU
>GRACE.
Well the bible doesn't think so.. is not Jesus pbuh to return to make war? is not Jesus pbuh in the bible related as saying that one must go by works as well?
Have a nice day
Nzingha
Many of you here, even Nzingha, claims that he has read through over & over the Scriptures & understand them...but again pose fundamental questions that I feel are unnecessary IF you have already understand the Scriptures. Whether you have understand the Scriptures or don't want to believe the what the Scriptures says are 2 different things. >>
Actually I have read the bible yes,, over and over.. no not that interesting to me :) However what is the issue is that I (and others) don't understand what is written as you do. hence your assumption is that we don't want to "believe" what they say.. what is in dispute is your INTERPRETATION at this point and not what is actually written. This, firefly *is* two different things.
I would like to see your questions about islam, i have delt w/ some of your comments already, very little about islam.
Nzingha
Om Mohammed,
Is this a public access forum on comparative religion? Is this a place where people sometimes discuss and cogitate over differing points of view? I apologize if I have overstepped what is allowable in any way.
You seem to have assumed that I have not read the Quran.
I have most certainly read it.
But my comments were not an argument about Islam or the Quran. They were imperfect and earnest words, expressions of my faith and convictions and they did not strive to give glory to idols, to myself or to any other, but God alone.
The Bible surely teaches us that :
Faith and sacrafice are inseperable (Luke 9:23)
Faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26)
The righteous have works (Matthew 25:34-36)
The Bible surely teaches us further that:
The righteous do not value their works highly (Matthew 25:37-39) (Luke 18:9-14)
The righteous let God humble their hearts, and entrust themselves soley to God's mercy and correction.
(Psalm 32:2)(Psalm 51:17) (Psalm 23) (Psalm 6)
They realize that they can do nothing to earn their salvation,
yet they do more works than any because they desire to do what is right in the eyes of God!
Sulaiman
07-05-2001, 14:41
Hi Jared
>Faith without works is dead (James
>2:14-26)
>The righteous have works (Matthew 25:34-36)
Do you mind explaining what is meant by 'works' in your quotations.
>The righteous let God humble their
>hearts, and entrust themselves soley
>to God's mercy and correction.
Now we are getting somewhere.If God humbles the hearts of the righteous and the righteous entrust themselves soley to God's mercy and correction.What does Jesus do then? Where does he fit in here?
Thanks
Sulaiman
Sulaiman
07-05-2001, 14:47
Hi Jared
Its a lovely introspective exposition of yourself you are giving here.Being where you are I am sure you do not fit all of us in your category.All you are saying is limited to yourself only.It has nothing to do with the next person.
Thanks
Sulaiman
Sulaiman,
Works are the actions that we take because of our obedience to God. Even our obedience to God would not be possible unless God makes it possible.
You say:
"Now we are getting somewhere.If God humbles the hearts of the righteous and the righteous entrust themselves soley to God's mercy and correction. What does Jesus do then? Where does he fit in here?
Perhaps you've just asked the most important question that one can ever ask. Jesus 'fits in here' because it is precisely in Him that God, Himself has for-ordained to work, to humble hearts, to cleanse our hearts, and to extend His grace to all humanity. (Matthew 11:25-30)
man o man
I gave you the scripture that says that Jesus died for sins, yet you still deny that he said.
What's up with you dude?
works can't save you!!!
the law shows how evil we are,that's it's purpose
the works he talks of are of the Law, which keeps us closer to God. it doesn't bring you to the Father, it brings you closer.
alhamduliyesu
07-05-2001, 17:25
i have to post under different names now...
sulaiman, he's saying that he's a worm and not worthy of God's grace.....this also means everyone isn't worthy....no one is!!
Sulaiman,
If I 've spoken introspectively about myself its to raise questions about what I have found and to bear witness to how God has dealt with me to this day.
I don't want or assume everyone to be in my 'catagory' as you put it, but as to whether all that I said is limited only to myself, or has nothing to do with 'the next person' that's not for you to decide for everyone else.
Sulaiman
08-05-2001, 10:13
Hi Jared
>Works are the actions that we
>take because of our
>obedience to God.
This is not a complete answer.HOW does God show to you the manner of obedience?
Even our
>obedience to God would not
>be possible unless God makes
>it possible.
This I do not remember asking for it,I know it very well but thanks for an input.
>Perhaps you've just asked the most
>important question that one can
>ever ask. Jesus 'fits in
>here' because it is precisely
>in Him that God, Himself
>has for-ordained to work, to
>humble hearts, to cleanse
>our hearts, and to extend
>His grace to all humanity.
> (Matthew 11:25-30)
As far as you are concerned is there any difference between Jesus and God..........just help me there? Please........ God has for-ordainede to work through all His messemgers.....His work was never limited to Jesus.
Sulaiman
Sulaiman
08-05-2001, 10:26
Hi tov
>man o man
>
>I gave you the scripture that
>says that Jesus died for
>sins, yet you still deny
>that he said.
Excuse me......where on earth did you give me that scripture? I never saw it.So please do show me.
>What's up with you dude?
>
>works can't save you!!!
Let me tell you something brother. Jesus was not the first being to introduce religion to mankind......and he certainly was not the first human here on earth.To tell me that works can not save me when history before Jesus, is filled with righteous people, is ridiculous, in fact its way flawed.When Jesus came here there was already religion here on earth, if he was such a crucial element here.How the hell did everybody before him manage religion before his arrival?Come on now you do not have to be rocket scientist to put that together.
>the law shows how evil we
>are,that's it's purpose
What did Jesus SAY about the LAW? Was this Jesus's attitude towards the law also?
>the works he talks of are
>of the Law, which keeps
>us closer to God. it
>doesn't bring you to the
>Father, it brings you closer.
You are not making sense here.Explain this further.........I can sense confusion coming.
Sulaiman
I told you that I had to assume names...I'm alhamdliyesu.
It's in Matthew remember? You know the scripture. People were saved by the grace of God through faith in the old days, and are saved by grace of God through faith now.
Jace=Tov
08-05-2001, 17:16
I'm=tov
jace=alhamdliyesu
alhamduliyesu=tov
Sulaiman
08-05-2001, 17:49
>If I 've spoken introspectively about
>myself its to raise
>questions about what I have
>found and to bear witness
>to how God has dealt
>with me to this day.
If that is how God dealt with you.....how does someone else benefit from this?
>I don't want or assume everyone
>to be in my 'catagory'
>as you put it, but
>as to whether all that
>I said is limited only
>to myself, or has nothing
>to do with 'the next
>person' that's not for you
>to decide for everyone else.
I am not deciding anything here.I asked you the simple question: You also admitted that its introspective, now my question is how can someone other than yourself benefit?
Thanks
Sulaiman
Sulaiman,
You write:
>I am not deciding anything here.I
>asked you the simple question:
>You also admitted that its
>introspective, now my question is
>how can someone other than
>yourself benefit?
Discussions in comparative religion sometimes work that way Sulaiman. One person expresses a point of view, a belief, an experience, an idea, a conviction, a question, introspective or not.
Another person in the discussion thinks about it and responds, and may or may not derive something beneficial from the whole process. This is one way someone could benefit.
Also, perhaps I say:
"God has strengthened my heart."
(one might say that this is introspective)
Someone else reads this and thinks:
"Ah, God has also strengthened my heart. Its good to know that He has strengthened this other mans' heart too!"
-Jared
Sulaiman
08-05-2001, 21:01
Hi Jared
Its obvious you are not getting my point here.My point is lets debate substance, belief systems not emotional huhaas.Do you get me now?
Thanks
Sulaiman
Sulaiman,
Ahh..... substance! ....belief systems... yes, I'll try my best to accomodate your request, and take your pointed advice to heart.
Thank-you,
Jared
Om_Mohammed
09-05-2001, 02:21
Hmmm...
OK,
Jared: You have stated way back, in an earlier post (in this thread) that you have not read the Quran...and then, now, in a reply to me...you are saying that you have read it, although perhaps not in it's entirety. Please clarify yourself.
For all: Yes, this is most definitely an open forum...for debate and discussion...and just that...debate and discussion, not for arguing, or for preaching a religion other than islam. This is an islamic site...and according to the rules of this site, there will be no preaching of other religions.
So, in a forum such as this...comparative religion...there is a fine line between comparing, discussing, and then...crossing over to preaching. Be careful...do not cross over that line.
Now...that over with...yes, I have studied the scriptures quite thoroughly for many years...and it was in part that study that led me to islam, and to the beliefs that I have come to. That does not mean that I have disrespect for the previous scriptures...they are commendable in their rite. However, please examine more closely. This is for you, not for me, or for this forum, even. Even within the scriptures of the bible...there are many contradictions. Look at the many contradictions about Jesus, even...or about some other topics...there are many...do i need to quote and list them? I will...if need be. Although I really dispise doing such a thing. They are there...if you will look to see. (perhaps in another post, i shall make some references for you to look at, inshaAllah). Such contradictions really make loose ground for a belief.
This whole item about religion...is a thing of faith, coupled with knowledge, and then enriched by good works, and made a possible goal by the mercy and grace of God. Without any of those components, we would be lost. Faith is the foundation...knowledge is the pillars...good words and good deeds are the closing walls, but then the grace and mercy of God to forgive us and clean us of our sins for entrance into heaven is the final touch of the roof top, and the final seal for our salvation. Without any of those...the house of ourselves is incomplete.
Again...do not waste your time to 'look into' the Quran...for it also is scripture...and it has it's own value. I cannot speak for others here (although I do know what many of them have claimed)...but I have read the other scriptures...and after reading the Quran, I have come to the conclusion that it is a finality of a natural and divine progression of messages thru time. As for you, Jared, Tov, alham...., and the many other names that any of you may be taking: can you declare the same? That you have read all the scriptures that are there to be read? Have you read the Quran? It really makes little difference to me if you have or you haven't. In fact, it really makes little difference even to God if you have or you haven't. However, you may be missing in on something quite important, if you do not. And...if you read, and you do not find what I and many others have found and learned...then at least you will not have lost anything, will you? Make time...for there may come a time when you wish that you had, but you can no more.
Om Mohammed.
Om_Mohammed
09-05-2001, 02:32
OH...as a later note in response to all that has been said.
We muslims...we do not disregard Jesus at all...we regard him in quite high light, as a prophet and messenger. He was a man...quite a miracle of a man, for sure...but a man, none the less. His birth...the miraculous birth from a virgin mother...was surely a miracle. But no more of a miracle than the existence of any other humans...even you and me. Also, if you are declaring his miraculous virgin birth such a miracle as to declare him the one and only son of God...then what about the miraculous birth of Adam? or Eve, for that matter? Adam was created from no father nor mother...he was created from a bit of dust, and God said 'Be' and he became. Similar for Eve...she was created from a rib of Adam's (i.e. the father figure, but no mother)...and God said 'Be' and she became. So...what about them? Are they not to be declared the children of God also, much like the declaration of Jesus? Or...what about the many references throughout the bible...OT and NT alike...which refer to various peoples or persons as the child or children of God? There is some inconsistency here.
In the statement of Jesus...'I am the way, the light...etc...(till the end)...' he is stating that he is the WAY, not the DESTINATION. The way, as in to follow his examples and teachings...leads you to the destination. And...what is the destination? None other than to reach God, at heaven.
My main point here is to you all: Do not disregard the message that Mohammed delivered...the Quran. We do not disregard the message that Jesus delivered, nor the message that Moses delivered, nor the message that Abraham delivered. It behooves only you to explore.
Islam is not only a religion...it is more a way of life. It is a way of life which implements religion into daily lives on a day to day basis.
Om Mohammed
Om_Mohammed
09-05-2001, 02:49
Faith is believing in God...to the extent that you know that He is somewhere, but you do not know exactly where.
You know that He can and does see you...yet you cannot see Him.
You know that He can and does hear you...yet you cannot hear Him.
He is recording your every action, words, and even thoughts...yet you cannot see that record being accumulated.
God is the ultimate Lawmaker...it is His laws which should be and must be followed...to the letter. If one does not follow those laws, there is a terrible price to pay...unless one repents, and seriously and sincerely turns around in his ways.
It is our faith and belief in the mercy of God that He will forgive us, that leads us to do righteous and good deeds.
It is our fear and faith and belief that the judgement and vengence of God will provide for us punishment that leads us to abstain from doing bad deeds or going against His Laws.
It is for those bad deeds or having gone against His Laws which necessitates us asking for His Forgiveness and Mercy.
It is our faith and hope that He will have mercy upon us and forgive us, that maintains our sense of hope for everlasting life.
There are many attributes of God...the Creator, the Originator, the One, the Only, the Magnificent, the Merciful, the Beneficient, the Holy One, and many more.
We are told even in the Quran...that it is His mercy which preceeds His anger. Therefore...even if perhaps we incur His anger, that His mercy takes more precedence and power over that anger. In other words...even if and when we make mistakes (therefore incuring His anger)...we repent, and ask for forgiveness (therefore incuring His mercy, inshaAllah).
In all of this...it is throuhg God ONLY that we can find mercy, repentance, salvation, and finally...eternal life. To equate any other creature along that way as intercessor...is paramount to associating partners with Him. Glory be to Him!!!! He is in no need of any partners or intercessors!!! He is Absolute, Omnipotent, the Creator of the worlds and all that is in them!!! Ask of Him Alone...and you shall receive!!! Associate partners or intercessors with Him...and you shall be greatly deceived!!!
It is quite simple, quite logical, and quite relevant.
Om Mohammed.
Sulaiman
09-05-2001, 09:15
Hi Jared
Just for interest sake.Are you Unitarian or Trinitarian?
Thanks
Sulaiman
Om Mohammed,
You are mistaken sir, I have never said in any post that I have not read the Quran.
I said plainly in the 33rd post of this thread that I HAVE read the Quran. I may add that I have read it in its entirety and refer to it regularly.
Sincerely,
Jared
hamdliyesu
09-05-2001, 15:12
We cannot obey your request.....we will teach that Christ died for all and is salvation because it's a grand thing worth teaching. So what if this is an Islamic site? We are warriors against the minions that reject the one True God....hmmmm....Truth.......that's so wierd....we want to fight for Truth? Yes, we will live and die for the Truth. We will never give up, because we love YOU. We don't wish for anyone to die.
Shalom,
Jace
Hallelu et adonai
kol goyim
shabechu uchola umim
ki gavar alenu chasdo
ve emet adonai le'olam!
Hallelujah!
alhamdliyesu
09-05-2001, 15:29
You sir don't understand.
We cannot go before God, He will not have sin in his presence.
Isn't Allah plural in nature? Doesn't it mean great honor?
Why would God have put it in people's minds that plural means high honor? Three in one, kinda like neopolitan ice cream.
You are starting to sound like an Orthodox Jew.
As Christians, we have to accept that we cannot be worthy of any good thing. Why do you think that you are? You may be the best of all humans, but that isn't what God desires of you. Being good is good, but it doesn't earn you anything in heaven. We cannot earn a thing by our works....our works compared to God our filthy menstrual cloths. Our robes of righteousness on earth are like rags in heaven. Do you get it? To Him be the Glory! Our God doesn't keep us punished as we deserve! He fulfilled his promise to Abraham through Yeshua. God was obligated to fulfill his promise. He could have just said,"no, I don't want to do it for the filthy race of human kind." and he would have been just in doing so, but he is FAITHFUL, more than FAITHFUL.
Sulaiman
09-05-2001, 18:02
Jace
>We cannot obey your request.....we will
>teach that Christ died for
>all and is salvation because
>it's a grand thing worth
>teaching.
You are begining to sound like a parrot.You keep repeating the same thing over and over again without listening to yourself.
So what if
>this is an Islamic site?
> We are warriors against
>the minions that reject the
>one True God....hmmmm....Truth.......that's so wierd....we
>want to fight for Truth?
Who is rejecting One True God? Before you start fighting for the truth, you must first know it.
> Yes, we will
>live and die for the
>Truth. We will never
>give up, because we love
>YOU. We don't wish
>for anyone to die.
Everybody will die, there is not a sigle soul that is forever-living except God.What you wish is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is I am going to die just like you are.
Coool it!!!!!
Sulaiman
Sulaiman,
I believe that God is One.
What do you understand the terms Trinitarian and Unitarian to mean?
Sincerely,
Jared
Om_Mohammed
09-05-2001, 22:10
First of all...I am not a 'sir', but a 'ma'm'...the prefix on the name of 'om' indicates...'mother of...'. Therefore, the name 'om mohammed' is translated as meaning 'mother of mohammed'.
Secondly...I most distinctly remember reading in an earlier post that you stated that you had not yet had the time to read the Quran...indicating quite clearly that you have not read it. I cannot find that now to quote it for you...perhaps you or someone else has gone back to delete that portion. I apologize if I am wrong in that.
However, it was a suggestion to you...to read the Quran, in order to better understand Islam. If you would read it, you would understand that it is quite clear in the message of unity...the unity or oneness of ONE and ONLY ONE God. Period. There is no multiplicity...as is being implied in some of the latter posts (whether by you, or by Jace, or anyone else). That is the basic message of Islam...the belief in only ONE God...period. All else in the religion revolves around that basic and simple belief.
Now...you have addressed the works that we do...and with that address, you are implying that no matter what we do...it is not good enough. Please tell me...does it not tell you in your own bible to do good works?...to be kind to your neighbors?...to be kind to the orphans and the poor people?...to be kind to your family? If good works really do not matter, like you are trying to argue...then why bother with them at all? Sure, good works alone are not what will save us...you nor me. However, those good works in combination with faith, and of course with the grace and mercy of God which would forgive us of our sins and admit us into heaven...that is the winning combination. If you have merely good works, without faith and belief...those works are really worth nothing. And...if you have faith and believe...yet do not do good works, but do bad works, then that faith and belief is rather wiped out.
The main point here being: in Islam...there is no sense of or belief in any multiplicity of the understanding of God, but rather...the important and stressed belief and knowledge that there is only One God...with no associates with Him in any way, shape, or form.
You have tried to imply otherwise, also at the same time trying to imply that Christianity is based on the belief of One God. However, in christianity...you are recognizing and believing Jesus to have at least some, if not all...of the capabilities and qualities of God...the same God who created him (Jesus). It is illogical that that could actually be. God is a single figure...a single Master...a single God.
I am sorry...this 'debate' of yours is only going in circles, and really getting no where.
Thank you for your 'concerns' for us...but no thanx.
Your posts along this line of your preaching are no longer welcome here. Any more will need to be locked and/or removed, and perhaps resulting in your being banned.
The site rules are clear: No preaching of any religion other than islam. Debates are welcome, yet preaching of any other religion is not welcomed.
If you would like to continue in accordance with those rules, please do so. If you cannot control and contain yourselves from preaching your religion, then you are no longer welcome here.
Om mohammed.
Sulaiman
10-05-2001, 10:45
Hi Jared
Well from my readings I came to conclude that Trinitarians believe God is made up of three components: father, son and holy spirit.While Unitarians believe in an one undivisible God.
Thanks
Sulaiman
Ma'am,
I am truly sorry for referring to you as a 'sir'. I apologize.
You are absolutely mistaken that you ever read in any of my posts that I have not read the Quran, for the fourth time I HAVE read it. I certainly have not tampered with any of my posts.
Please consider my posts in themselves. Jared, Firefly, Alham, etc. may all indeed be Christian, but we have each made unique statements. Shouldn't they be treated individually? We are not an organized front of Christians here. I don't personally know anyone on this site and I haven't gone by any other name beside Jared.
I acknowledge that you have authority over this discussion site. I am perfectly willing and enthusiastic about having a civilized discussion. I think my posts don't indicate otherwise. If you choose to censure me, know that you will be censuring someone who was willing to abide by the rules of this forum. God knows that I am sincerely interested in your views and in discussing the substance of our differences, and in presenting my point of view to your response. I will try to avoid the pitfalls of 'preaching' and I hope that your moderation of this site continues to be as interesting and fair as it has been. I thank you for it ma'am.
Sincerely,
Jared
alhamdliyesu
10-05-2001, 14:48
when i say'we don't want any of you to die', I mean I don't want you to burn forever because you reject God's son
On the note of repetitiveness, yes I am sounding like a parrot.
It tells us in the Bible that Greeks want wisdom and Jews want a sign, but our message is Christ crucified.
What? A single most important message? oh my! Something must be wrong with me, I fight for Truth!
Pray that I not be sassy.
Jace
alhamdliyesu
10-05-2001, 14:52
fun!
Well, if you don't like it, sorry.
I have nothing to be sorry about though.
Why should I stop?
Yeshua continually defied the rules, and thus I will follow in his zeal.
You only think that I'm preaching pointless things, but you don't have any basis to criticize me.
Shalom
Jace
Your statement: Hi Jared
Well from my readings I came to conclude that Trinitarians believe God is made up of three components: father, son and holy spirit.While Unitarians believe in an one undivisible God.
--> I have been reading the progress of this debate with interest especially this last comment by you Sulaiman. It appears to me that one of Muslims approach towards Christianity is the idea surrounding God. I have had my share of experience regarding this issue. In most encounters, Muslims will dwell on the explaination given by Christians pertaining God in terms of questions such as/similar to: "Is Jesus God?" "Is the Holy Spirit God?" "Is the Father God?"
I gather that Muslims approaches this point from a human's rational point of view thus arriving to a conclusion such as: "So Christians believe that Jesus is God, the Father is God & the Holy Spirit is God, so Christians believe in 3 gods".
How do we sufficiently describe God?? I believe one Christian tried to explain it by using an apple for an example, commenting that God is in similar fashion, however, instead of clarifying matters, this gave Muslims even more ground to critise Christianity. As Christians, we believe in One Indivisible God.
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change"
You might ask,"So how do you explain the deity of Christ, the Holy Spirit & the Father as one when we obviously see it as three?" To this, in my opinion, language must be able to come up with some superior choice of words to explain this issue(to which, I know will never happen). To illustrate my point, let's discuss how God created the universe out of nothing from a scientific point of view. Could someone go ahead & start the discussion first??
In that same manner, God created the universe out of nothing, created Man out of the dust of the Earth. If you could believe that, wouldn't you think that God's issue of the Holy Trinity is but of a mere simplicity??
Om Mohammed,
You said in post #49:
(My main point here is to you all: Do not disregard the message that Mohammed delivered...the Quran. We do not disregard the message that Jesus delivered, nor the message that Moses delivered, nor the message that Abraham delivered. It behooves only you to explore.)
Would you say that you esteem the message of Jesus as highly as you esteem the message of Mohammed?
Thanks,
Jared
Hello Sulaiman,
From what I understand Unitarians believe in one indivisable God but they do not believe that Jesus is God.
Trinitarians, on the other hand believe in one indivisible God, and that He is eternally present in three Persons who share equally and fully His one indivisable essence.
So, the Trinitarian position is the position supported by the Holy Scripture and it is my position. However I do think that the words 'Trinity' and 'Persons' can sometimes be understood in ways that do not reflect the reality that they describe.
Suaiman, when I pray to God, I do not see three Gods. I do not know three Gods! I know only One. God is high above all creation, I cannot comprehend all the mystery of His being. Can you?
Sincerely,
Jared
Sulaiman
11-05-2001, 11:36
Nice to hear from you again
What you are saying really does not help the discussion.If this is what you are contending.Why is it that the Trinity concept of God came,I would argue after Jesus ? Why is it that people before Jesus never knew this? Why? Considering that Jesus did not start religion.
Thanks
Sulaiman
Sulaiman
11-05-2001, 11:41
Hi Jared,
>Trinitarians, on the other hand believe
>in one indivisible God, and
>that He is eternally present
>in three Persons who share
>equally and fully His
>one indivisable essence.
Excuse me, did not Jesus say that the Father is greater than him?
>Suaiman, when I pray to God,
>I do not see three
>Gods.
Correction, no one can see God.One of his qualities is that He is invisible.
I do not know
>three Gods! I know
>only One. God is high
>above all creation, I cannot
>comprehend all the mystery of
>His being. Can you?
Its true that God is above all creation.But does that entitle you to change His nature and make Him the way you want him to be?
Thanks
Sulaiman
Riyadh Telhaami
11-05-2001, 23:57
You're scared. My, my, my. The muslims should reflect their faith in the way they act? Ok, we're not perfect, but neither are christians. Christians preach peace and do what they want. The muslims conquer Spain, and allow christians and jews to continue to live in peace practicing their faiths as they will. The christians take it back and start the wholesale slaughter of their cousins in faith known as the inquisition. Christians in the united states teach their enlightened religion of peace to the "heathen slaves" brought over from africa to civilize them-then proceed to whip, rape and lynch them into acceptance of it.
Yeah, we make mistakes-but don't say you're scared like christians haven't. How many indigenous populations did peace teaching christian conquerers wipe out in the americas? Did the muslims wipe out the indigenous populations in the countries they conquered? Spain? Malaysia? Iran? India? Turkey? Are the albanian and bosnian muslims really ethnically turkish? Or when the muslims initially left the arabian peninsula did they wipe out the peoples they found in the lands they conquered? I mean the armies coming out of saudi arabia couldn't repopulate palestine, syria, lebanon, iraq, jordan, egypt, libya, tunisia, algeria, and morocco by themselves. Could they?
Man, you act like christians have never done anything but reflect their religious teachings through their actions. I'll never forget the image of christian conquerors slashing open the bellies of defenseless pregnant indigenous women in the americas-of the christian slavemaster lynching the african slave and raping his wife in the united states-or the christian conquerors cutting off the hands of the indigenous in the americas or africa when they brought back too little gold or silver from their mines.
You're scared of Sulaiman? Well Firefly, I'm terrified-shaking violently in fear-scared senseless of you.
Riyadh Telhaami
12-05-2001, 01:23
Om Muhammed, I'm not sure they'll understand the Qur'an no matter how many times they read it. Or that it will eventually reveal itself to them. Everyone is not granted Islam by God. Everyone the prophet Muhammed (p.b.u.h.) prayed for in his lifetime did not receive Islam. And the Sahaba would reflect on surahs for years at a time in order to try and understand them.
You know a lot of people debate the validity of the holy books with the christians asking them who wrote the Bible? Or you know...if the gospel is Jesus' word, why isn't there a manuscript of it from his time or at least in the language he spoke (since the oldest manuscripst they have are in greek)?
I mean they have great debators: Dr Jamaal al-Badawi, Ahmed Deedat...I don't know who else. And that's ok if that's how they want to approach it. But a great deal of the people who accepted Islam accepted it after being touched by the way the muslims they came in contact with conducted themselves and lived. What, are there about fifty million muslims in China?
And how many millions in Russia? And we can't forget the muslims in the Phillipines. Wasn't their primary contact with muslims with muslim traders? Who probably weren't native speakers of the local languages and able to give exact literal translations of the Qur'an-but who apparently lived Islam closely enough that people would leave their indigenous religions and accept Islam.
And I am told by Indian muslims (Sunnis) that many of the Indians that accepted Islam were first intrigued and impressed by the way the Sufis they met lived and conducted themselves (though Sunni Islam is the Islam predominately practiced there).
But still, not everyone in those countries accepted Islam. Islam is not given to everyone. And I personally don't have a problem with that. I covet my religion as a personal treasure, and am not quick to share it.
Some people are quick to answer when questioned by christians as to the tenets of Islam. I tell them that if they really want to know I can direct them to people more knowledgeable (at a mosque or college). But I know that they're just asking so they can tell me about their religion after they've been patient enough to listen to me talk about mine. But I'm not interested.
When I was younger, christians would often approach me and ask if they could discuss Christianity with me. I would discuss it with them for an hour or so, and when I wasn't moved to convert- they would politely excuse themselves for a moment and return with a companion or two. We'd continue for another hour and they'd bring someone else over. It'd continue like this till the evening came and it was time for them to get back on their church's bus and go back home. But you know, exposing the faults in their reasoning, the lack of authenticity of the book they currently call the Bible, the incomprehensibility of their explanation of salvation...it gets old after a while. You talk to one and he avoids you every time he sees you from then on...but there's always a new one tomorrow or next week or two weeks from now-and they're always hitting you with the same illogical dialogue.
I worry about my own Islam. If I practice it correctly, my life example will be my da'wa. I don't have to prove Islam's veracity to anyone. I don't have to prove the Qur'an's authenticity. If we practice Islam as we are supposed to, our lives will be our da'wa. And as we live our lives, conduct business with more new clients, continue to meet and interact with more people-more people will be exposed to Islam. More people will want to know what it's about. Then we can show them the Qur'an, explain Islam-and they can decide for themselves. But everyone isn't given the gift of Islam.
Your statement: What you are saying really does not help the discussion.If this is what you are contending.Why is it that the Trinity concept of God came,I would argue after Jesus ? Why is it that people before Jesus never knew this? Why? Considering that Jesus did not start religion.
--> How did you conclude that the concept of the Trinity came only after Jesus???
Jesus' authority & purpose is clearly underlined in the Scriptures & testimonial to His teachings are His disciples as you can find in the Scriptures..
Firefly...
Your statement: You're scared. My, my, my. The muslims should reflect their faith in the way they act? Ok, we're not perfect, but neither are christians. Christians preach peace and do what they want. The muslims conquer Spain, and allow christians and jews to continue to live in peace practicing their faiths as they will. The christians take it back and start the wholesale slaughter of their cousins in faith known as the inquisition. Christians in the united states teach their enlightened religion of peace to the "heathen slaves" brought over from africa to civilize them-then proceed to whip, rape and lynch them into acceptance of it
--> First of all, I am not going to justify the deeds of the past. As far as I know, what the Bible teaches should be how Christians live their lives. You speak in volume in terms of the injustice of "Christians" in the past & you even quote a few "good" deeds Muslims have done in the past. It appears to me you are living in an ideal world. Like you have said, we are not perfect..Yes, I agree! The Pope has publicly asked for forgiveness for the Crusade done in the past. Yes, it does not justify the wrongdoings but isn't it the first step towards a more peaceful & understanding situation? On the other hands, it appears that all the deeds of Muslims are justified either with the excuses of "self-defense" or "reclaiming certain property", not to mention by the use of Jihad..yet you fail to dwell on the deeds conducted during wars. Christians have realised their wrongdoings in the past but what about Muslims? I, personally know there are quite alot of Muslims groups around the world, using violence to achieve their goals(which are absurd when I read about them)..& if you are going to tell me that those people aren't really Muslims, who gives you the right to say that all of the injustice(mentioned above) are done by real Christians??
Your statement: Yeah, we make mistakes-but don't say you're scared like christians haven't. How many indigenous populations did peace teaching christian conquerers wipe out in the americas? Did the muslims wipe out the indigenous populations in the countries they conquered? Spain? Malaysia? Iran? India? Turkey? Are the albanian and bosnian muslims really ethnically turkish? Or when the muslims initially left the arabian peninsula did they wipe out the peoples they found in the lands they conquered? I mean the armies coming out of saudi arabia couldn't repopulate palestine, syria, lebanon, iraq, jordan, egypt, libya, tunisia, algeria, and morocco by themselves. Could they?
Man, you act like christians have never done anything but reflect their religious teachings through their actions. I'll never forget the image of christian conquerors slashing open the bellies of defenseless pregnant indigenous women in the americas-of the christian slavemaster lynching the african slave and raping his wife in the united states-or the christian conquerors cutting off the hands of the indigenous in the americas or africa when they brought back too little gold or silver from their mines.
--> Ok, I agree with you that some Islamic government do not massacre their citizen of other faiths but have you realised the imposition of restrictions imposed unto us?? I am living in a Islamic country & so I know exactly what I am talking about..& thank God, it is just a moderate Islamic country. I really pity those Christians living in real Islamic countries(as said by their government that they are trying to follow the exact same way as the time of Muhammad), Christians have to form underground churches to avoid the Islamic secret police..like I have said, you are living in some fantastic, ideal world. So, I would clearly suggest you think before you speak & not simply accuse Christians of "injustice"
Your statement: You're scared of Sulaiman? Well Firefly, I'm terrified-shaking violently in fear-scared senseless of you.
--> I have actually wrote something before this but decided against posting it. Anyway, be afraid if u must..I will still be doing my stuff peacefully that is if I don't get showered by bullets or grenades...:)
Be at peace,
Firefly
Hello Sulaiman,
I never claimed to see God, just trying to tell you that I'm not a polytheist.
Jesus, who is absolutely one with the Father in essence, freely and willfully condescended to His subordinate position, even unto His death on the cross. This is how He can say "The Father is greater than I.".
Jesus can say without any contradiction that the Father is greater, and yet at the same time He can also say, to see Him(Jesus) is to see the Father.(John 14:9) When Jesus says the Father is greater he in no way diminishes Himself, rather, all the Father’s glory belongs to Him.
John 16:15 "All that belongs to the Father is mine."
Even in earthly terms one can imagine a man making himself subordinate to another man who is his equal.
Yet this example only goes so far. I think that you are insisting on thinking in human terms about the Christian understanding of God. This is why you dwell on apparent contradictions.
Ponder Phil. 2:6-11
Riyadh Telhaami said in post # 68 :
(.....the Sahaba would reflect on surahs for years at a time in order to try and understand them.)
Sulaiman, would you agree that there are things difficult to understand? The nature of Jesus Christ is a mystery, difficult to understand perhaps. You insist on contradiction.
You accuse me of making God the way I want him to be. I don't want God to be this way or that. I have taken God at His word, even when it hurts, because I want, above all things to serve God alone. I think your only argument for me is that the words I have cherished are perverted. Do you believe that the Scriptures have been perverted with lies?
alhamdliyesu
15-05-2001, 15:13
Human logic will lead you away from the Holy One.
alhamdliyesu
15-05-2001, 15:18
You know what, think about this in a logical manner.
If Satan really wanted to wipe out a the Truth, wouldn't he try do destroy the Church from the inside? Those people who call themselves Christians aren't really Christian, they wanted it for the honor and the glory that it would give them in the old days. Do you take the responsibility of your Muslim brothers who defy the Qu'ran and kill? No, certainly not. I am a God-fearing man, no man can take my soul so I will not fear man.
Sulaiman
15-05-2001, 17:16
Hello
>--> How did you conclude that the concept of the Trinity came only after Jesus???
I knew this question was coming.Very easy actually.Which human race had the Holy scriptures with them before the arrival of Jesus? The Jews.What is the Jew's concept of God? One INDIVISIBLE BEING.Got it?
Jesus' authority &
>purpose is clearly underlined in
>the Scriptures & testimonial to
>His teachings are His disciples
>as you can find in
>the Scriptures..
This has nothing to do with the nature of God.
Thanks
Sulaiman
Sulaiman
15-05-2001, 17:44
>Hello Jared,
>
>I never claimed to see God,
>just trying to tell you
>that I'm not a polytheist.
Well you did.Read your post before this one and see.You said when you are praying you see one God!!!!!!!There are many ways of telling me you are not polytheist, which I doubt, without telling me the above lies.
>Jesus, who is absolutely one with
>the Father in essence, freely
>and willfully condescended to His
>subordinate position, even unto His
>death on the cross.
Wait a minute.Who told you this?This is getting out of hand, way out of hand.The Bible I have does not tell me this.Where did you get it from?
>This is how He can
>say "The Father is
>greater than I.".
Did Jesus SAY this?
>Jesus can say without any contradiction
>that the Father is greater,
>and yet at the same
>time He can also say,
>to see Him(Jesus) is to
>see the Father.(John 14:9) When
>Jesus says the Father is
>greater he in no way
>diminishes Himself, rather, all the
>Father’s glory belongs to Him.
You know what.This is all in your mind, its a figment of your imagination.You are like a parrot, its useless to have the God-given gift called the brains.
>John 16:15 "All that belongs to
>the Father is mine."
Jesus said this because he was a BELIEVER in GOD not because he was God himself.You know you Christians are outsmarting everyone else when it comes to believing the IMPOSSIBLE.
>Even in earthly terms one can
>imagine a man making himself
>subordinate to another man who
>is his equal.
I thought we are talking about God, not man. There is NOTHING that can be compared to God, nothing.
>Yet this example only goes
>so far. I think
>that you are insisting on
>thinking in human terms about
>the Christian understanding of God.
>This is why you dwell
>on apparent contradictions.
You know what.God is way smarter than you and I.He knows what will confuse and what will not confuse us.There is no other way I can think except in human terms, I am human.Are you telling me you can not see these contradictions?I forgot, you can only see these if you read scriptures with an OPEN mind.You can not see them,of course if you are reciting them, like a parrot.
> Riyadh Telhaami said in post
># 68 :
>(.....the Sahaba would reflect on surahs
>for years at a time
>in order to try and
>understand them.)
This is true, but none of the Surahs say Jesus is God.I do not know how this helps your arguement.Besides you can not place the Quraan with the Bible on the same level, its preposterous.
>Sulaiman, would you agree that
>there are things difficult
>to understand? The nature
>of Jesus Christ is a
>mystery, difficult to understand perhaps.
>You insist on contradiction.
The nature of Jesus is no mystery.The nature of God is no mystery either.There is nothing hard to understand between the two.
>You accuse me of making God
>the way I want him
>to be. I don't want
>God to be this way
>or that. I have taken
>God at His word, even
>when it hurts, because I
>want, above all things to
>serve God alone.
How can you say you serve God alone when you put partners next to Him?What did Jesus say was the GREATEST commandment?
I think
>your only argument for me
>is that the words I
>have cherished are perverted. Do
>you believe that the Scriptures
>have been perverted with lies?
Please Jared.Its not the question of whether I believe the scriptures have been corrupted or not.All you have to do is read the history of the Church to find out the truth.Its not dependent on me, its what happened long ago.Do not bother trying to justify it, the mess was made long before you were born, I even doubt your greatest of your great grand parents were around.
Thanks
Sulaiman
Sulaiman,
This is the exact qoute from my post:
"Suaiman, when I pray to God, I do not see three Gods. I do not know three Gods! I know only One. God is high above all creation, I cannot comprehend all the mystery of His being. Can you?"
You should read more carefully before you accuse someone of lying!
You said in your post and I qoute:
"Well you did.Read your post before this one and see.You said when you are praying you see one God!!!!!!!"
I said that I KNOW only one God, not that I SEE only one God!
All that I said about seeing was that I do not SEE three Gods. In no way was I implying anything else. Please, I would never claim to have seen God, because I haven't.
I also said that:
"Jesus, who is absolutely one with
the Father in essence, freely
and willfully condescended to His
subordinate position, even unto His
death on the cross."
To which you replied:
"Wait a minute.Who told you this?This is getting out of hand, way out of hand.The Bible I have does not tell me this.Where did you get it from?"
What Bible are you reading Sulaiman?
Read Philippians 2:3-11 to find just one place where I 'got it from'.
I don't put any partners beside God! God has no peer! You think that by my saying God has a Son, I am putting another god next to God but I'm not.
Jesus said to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart with all thy soul with all thy might and with all thy strength.
Sulaiman I do believe, as far as this discussion goes it is substantially a question as to wether or not you believe that the sriptures I have believed upon have been perverted with lies. I understand that you present verses from the Bible about Christ that in your estimation prove that He was simply a prophet but there are many many verses that indicate His Sonship, His equality with God. I ask you again, do you believe that the Scriptures which I have believed upon have been perverted with lies?
I did not want Christianity to be true. I found it to be true. I read the Bible and believed what it said. I wasn't under the influence of any church or mentors at the time of my conversion. I simply read it , considering its claims, and prayed to God to guide me.
My question to you is:
Do you think that I am in error simply because I misinterpret
the Scripture out of some blindness, or do you believe that the Bible itself is misleading people?
Thanks,
Jared
Sulaiman
16-05-2001, 09:27
Hi Jared
>"Suaiman, when I pray to God,
>I do not see three
>Gods. I do not know
>three Gods! I know only
>One.
Jared, lets analyse this.You say when you pray you do not SEE three Gods.From this I get the idea that you have the capacity of seeing the Invisible.After that you say you do not know three Gods.From reading this, I get the impression that the reason why you do not KNOW three Gods its because you have not SEEN them as you said before.Thereafter you say I KNOW only One.Since you do not KNOW three Gods because you have not SEEN them, its safe for me to conclude that because you KNOW only One, you have SEEN only One. Does that make sense to you?
>"Jesus, who is absolutely one with
>the Father in essence, freely
>and willfully condescended to His
>subordinate position, even unto His
>death on the cross."
>
>To which you replied:
>
>"Wait a minute.Who told you this?This
>is getting out of hand,
>way out of hand.The Bible
>I have does not tell
>me this.Where did you get
>it from?"
>
>What Bible are you reading Sulaiman?
I am reading King James Version
>Read Philippians 2:3-11 to find just
>one place where I 'got
>it from'.
I will do that.Inshalaah( God willing)
>I don't put any partners beside
>God! God has no peer!
> You think that by
>my saying God has a
>Son, I am putting another
>god next to God but
>I'm not.
All you are telling me is what you are NOT doing.Now tell me what you are DOING.
>Jesus said to love the Lord
>thy God with all thy
>heart with all thy soul
>with all thy might and
>with all thy strength.
No. Tell me what Jesus said before saying this.He said this SECOND, tell me what he said FIRST.
>Sulaiman I do believe, as far
>as this discussion goes it
>is substantially a question as
>to wether or not you
>believe that the sriptures I
>have believed upon have been
>perverted with lies.
Again.The purity or impurity of the Bible doesnot hinge on what I believe.The tempering with the Bible is a HISTORICAL FACT. It has nothing to do with me.Therefore yes the Bilble has BEEN tempered with, not because of mine belief BUT because its what HAPPENED.Anymore questions?
I understand
>that you present verses
>from the Bible about Christ
>that in your estimation prove
>that He was simply a
>prophet but there are many
>many verses that indicate His
>Sonship, His equality with God.
>I ask you again, do
>you believe that the Scriptures
>which I have believed upon
>have been perverted with lies?
Tell me, what do you make of these different views from the Bible.Do not tell me they exist because I know, but tell me what you make of it.
>I did not want Christianity to
>be true. I found it
>to be true.
What yardstick did you use to measure its TRUTHFULNESS?
I read
>the Bible and believed what
>it said. I wasn't under
>the influence of any church
>or mentors at the time
>of my conversion.
You should have done more than just reading it.You should have considered its authenticity also.
I simply
>read it , considering its
>claims, and prayed to God
>to guide me.
You 'simply' read it. Do you know how much weight what you believe in carry as far as Hereafter is concerned?Do you?If you knew you should have done more than 'simply' reading.God is just, He does not give someone MORE measure than he deserves.You do little, He gives you little.You do more, He gives you more.
>Do you think that I am
>in error simply because I
>misinterpret
>the Scripture out of some blindness,
>or do you believe that
>the Bible itself is misleading
>people?
I beleive that the Bible was taken out of course long ago.It bears proof of the fallible craft,mankind.Its devinity was impurified.Its obvious that if you drink from an impure stream you become impure yourself.
>Thanks,
Sulaiman
Your statement: Jared, lets analyse this.You say when you pray you do not SEE three Gods.From this I get the idea that you have the capacity of seeing the Invisible.After that you say you do not know three Gods.From reading this, I get the impression that the reason why you do not KNOW three Gods its because you have not SEEN them as you said before.Thereafter you say I KNOW only One.Since you do not KNOW three Gods because you have not SEEN them, its safe for me to conclude that because you KNOW only One, you have SEEN only One. Does that make sense to you?
--> Sulaiman, as I have posted before quite a number of times, there is a certain limitation in language that we can use in the circumstances relating to God. What you are doing here is what I would call word-playing. In certain circumstances, when direct reference is not possible, an alternative, in the form of figuratively or a distant relative point is use. For example, look at the description of logo of the KJ Bible. Do you think that description sufficiently describes God??? I don't think so. It said "..three distinct yet equal Persons..." So why is it there?? People have tried over time(without success) to plainly describe the Holy Trinity of God. If you are still confused as to what Christians believe, let me tell you. We believe in One God & that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for our sins. This is the very pillars of the Christian faith.
Statement: >I don't put any partners beside
>God! God has no peer!
> You think that by
>my saying God has a
>Son, I am putting another
>god next to God but
>I'm not.
All you are telling me is what you are NOT doing.Now tell me what you are DOING.
--> Again this dwells on the concept of the Holy Trinity. Many Muslims I have encounter will quote the commandment," You shall have no other gods before Me" then accuse Christians of breaking the commandment. God is One, the Son is the Father & the Father, the Son. At this point of writing, I am not sure of how to put it to you, Sulaiman.
Your statement: Again.The purity or impurity of the Bible doesnot hinge on what I believe.The tempering with the Bible is a HISTORICAL FACT. It has nothing to do with me.Therefore yes the Bilble has BEEN tempered with, not because of mine belief BUT because its what HAPPENED.Anymore questions?
--> Tempering isn't an accurate word, Sulaiman. I indeed have come across articles that suggest some changes in the Bible(but please remember, changes in the form of different word pronunciations & not the form of adding/extracting verses). Likewise, I have come across articles that suggest that the Quran wasn't perserved as thought.
Your statement: Tell me, what do you make of these different views from the Bible.Do not tell me they exist because I know, but tell me what you make of it.
--> Different views?? Ok, tell me what different views? Are there any Bibles that say Jesus isn't the Son of God??(if you are talking about the Muslims intrepretation of the Bible, that is another story) Are there any Bibles that say Jesus didn't died on the cross??
Your statement: What yardstick did you use to measure its TRUTHFULNESS?
My statement: God
Your statement: You 'simply' read it. Do you know how much weight what you believe in carry as far as Hereafter is concerned?Do you?If you knew you should have done more than 'simply' reading.God is just, He does not give someone MORE measure than he deserves.You do little, He gives you little.You do more, He gives you more.
--> Reading the Bible(with God's guidance) allows you to truely understand what He is saying. The two main important elements here are reading & UNDERSTANDING. I have no comments on your last two sentences. I perceive it as an arrogant remark made by a person who claims he "climbed the tallest mountain" in his faith.
Your statement: I beleive that the Bible was taken out of course long ago.It bears proof of the fallible craft,mankind.Its devinity was impurified.Its obvious that if you drink from an impure stream you become impure yourself.
--> I disagree. Islam is impure, it represents not that of God but of other impure elements.. <-- See where these kind of statements(& yours) bring us?? NO WHERE!! What I am trying to say is that such statements of yours is meaningless. It does not forge whatsoever understanding between Christians & Muslims.
Om_Mohammed
17-05-2001, 00:33
Dear Jared:
Apologies accepted (about the sir/ma'm matter)...it is an understandable and easy mistake...particularly for those not accustomed to the customs of the manner of names of muslims.
And...I offer to you my apologies for appearing to be lumping you into a group atmosphere with some others in responding here in this thread. Yes, you are right...each one is individual...not only evident from the names signed to the messages, but as well in the mannerism of language of their messages. Each one deserves individual attention.
Please do continue in the spirit of learning and sharing, without preaching.
I have mentioned several times as reminders that this is an islamic site...yet although that is true...we are not 'preaching' islam here...but rather discussing issues, and attempting to reach the truth of all matters.
Thankyou for your input, and your participation, and let's all continue in the spirit of learning and sharing. If you truly seek guidance from only Him who can Guide...then surely He will not lead you astray.
Om Mohammed.
>Sulaiman,
You say:
>
>Jared, lets analyse this.You say when
>you pray you do not
>SEE three Gods.From this I
>get the idea that you
>have the capacity of seeing
>the Invisible.After that you say
>you do not know three
>Gods.From reading this, I get
>the impression that the reason
>why you do not KNOW
>three Gods its because you
>have not SEEN them as
>you said before.
That isn't what I meant. I did not mean that my knowledge came from seeing, or that my lack of knowledge came from not seeing. My statements about not seeing and not knowing three Gods were two independant statements.
Thereafter you say
>I KNOW only One.Since you
>do not KNOW three Gods
>because you have not SEEN
>them, its safe for me
>to conclude that because you
>KNOW only One, you have
>SEEN only One. Does that
>make sense to you?
>
I understand how you mistook my meaning, but the point is I didn't say that I saw God and I did not mean that I saw God. You accused me of literally saying I had seen God, when I never ever said that. If you thought that my words implied that you should have asked, "Are you saying that you have seen God?" to which I would have replied "No!!" and you would have avoided making an untruthfull allegation.
>
>
>>I don't put any partners beside
>>God! God has no peer!
>> You think that by
>>my saying God has a
>>Son, I am putting another
>>god next to God but
>>I'm not.
>
>All you are telling me is
>what you are NOT doing.Now
>tell me what you are
>DOING.
I worship God alone.
>>Jesus said to love the Lord
>>thy God with all thy
>>heart with all thy soul
>>with all thy might and
>>with all thy strength.
>
>No. Tell me what Jesus said
>before saying this.He said this
>SECOND, tell me what he
>said FIRST.
(Mark 12:29) "Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One."
This is what Jesus said first. Praise be to God.
>Tell me, what do you make
>of these different views from
>the Bible.Do not tell me
>they exist because I know,
>but tell me what you
>make of it.
The different views within the Bible are different aspects of one view that seem contradictory to those who reject the Truth of God's Word.
>
>>I did not want Christianity to
>>be true. I found it
>>to be true.
>
>What yardstick did you use to
>measure its TRUTHFULNESS?
God's Word is the 'yardstick'.
> I read
>>the Bible and believed what
>>it said. I wasn't under
>>the influence of any church
>>or mentors at the time
>>of my conversion.
>
>You should have done more than
>just reading it.You should have
>considered its authenticity also.
Of course I did consider its authenticity and it is not the only book I have read.
>
>I simply
>>read it , considering its
>>claims, and prayed to God
>>to guide me.
>
>You 'simply' read it. Do you
>know how much weight what
>you believe in carry as
>far as Hereafter is concerned?Do
>you?If you knew you should
>have done more than 'simply'
>reading.God is just, He does
>not give someone MORE measure
>than he deserves.You do little,
>He gives you little.You do
>more, He gives you more.
If I would have said I read it and read it and read it, and prayed and prayed for long hours, and read other religious texts, and that I tested its teachings, and experienced their fruit, perhaps this would be a helpful supplement for you to understand what the context of my 'simple' reading was.
>I beleive that the Bible was
>taken out of course long
>ago.It bears proof of the
>fallible craft,mankind.Its devinity was impurified.Its
>obvious that if you drink
>from an impure stream you
>become impure yourself.
If you would have seen where I was heading before I believed on God's Word, compared to where I am now, you would not be able to say that the stream I drank from made me impure. Please, before you face the Judgement day, make sure that your accusations are not false.
Do you really believe that the Bible was taken out of course, and if so, do you believe it was taken out of course before the Quran was written or after?
Thanks,
Jared
Sulaiman
17-05-2001, 13:07
Hi Jared
>That isn't what I meant. I
>did not mean that my
>knowledge came from seeing, or
>that my lack of knowledge
>came from not seeing. My
>statements about not seeing and
>not knowing three Gods were
>two independant statements.
Okay Jared.Let me make it easy for you.You said when you pray you do not SEE three Gods, right? Now tell me what you can SEE when you pray.
You know to me you sound like someone who has a very incoherent conception of God.You have no idea of the God you are worshiping.It looks like you do not understand the meaning of the word 'ONE GOD'.
>I worship God alone.
You know to me you sound like someone who has a very incoherent conception of God.You have no idea of the God you are worshipping.It looks like you do not understand the meaning of the words 'ONE GOD'.
>(Mark 12:29) "Hear O Israel, the
>Lord thy God is One."
>This is what Jesus said first.
> Praise be to God.
Good.Now tell me.Is this statement inclusive or exclusive of Jesus? In other words when he said this did he mean he was God himself or not?
>The different views within the Bible
>are different aspects of one
>view that seem contradictory to
>those who reject the Truth
>of God's Word.>
Goodness!!!! Are you listening to yourself.How on earth can you have DIFFERENT views of ONE thing?Jared, if I have to tell you the sky is not blue but pink what would you say to me?
>God's Word is the 'yardstick'.
You are confused.God's Word can not be a yardstick, is your CONCLUSION.Do you get the difference? There must be some TEST you use in a word before you conclude that its God's Word.Now I want to know the TEST not the RESULTS.
>Of course I did consider its
>authenticity and it is not
>the only book I have
>read.
Now we are getting somewhere.Tell me what mechanism you used to authenticate it.
>If I would have said I
>read it and read it
>and read it, and prayed
>and prayed for long
>hours, and read other religious
>texts, and that I tested
>its teachings, and experienced their
>fruit, perhaps this would be
>a helpful supplement for you
>to understand what the context
>of my 'simple' reading was.
What I mean here is did you consider the HISTORY of the Church?This is the question you are avoiding.
>If you would have seen where
>I was heading before I
>believed on God's Word, compared
>to where I am now,
>you would not be able
>to say that the stream
>I drank from made me
>impure. Please, before you face
>the Judgement day, make sure
>that your accusations are
>not false.
Jared, what difference does it make? The stream you are drinking from is STILL impure.You are worried about where you have BEEN, I am worried about where you are NOW.I can not comment on where you have been because I do not have a clue of it but I do know where you are now. Before you worry about me and Judgement Day, you should worry about YOURSELF and Judgement Day.
>Do you really believe that the
>Bible was taken out of
>course, and if so, do
>you believe it was taken
>out of course before the
>Quran was written or after?
What difference will this make? Those who took it out of course did not use the Quraan,neither did they know it, so what has the Quraan got to do with this? But just to give you a chance, I will tell you what Bishop Ignatius said.He was the Bishop in the city called Antioch, died in 100AC.In a letter he wrote to his friend he said:'The idea of making Jesus God was well established within 100 years after his departure'.So what do you make of this? The Quraan was revealed just over 600AC.
Thanks
Sulaiman
Sulaiman
17-05-2001, 13:37
Hi
>--> Sulaiman, as I have posted before quite a number of times, there is a certain limitation in language that we can use in the circumstances relating to God. What you are doing here is what I would call word-playing. In certain circumstances, when direct reference is not possible, an alternative, in the form of figuratively or a distant relative point is use. For example, look at the description of logo of the KJ Bible. Do you think that description sufficiently describes God??? I don't think so. It said "..three distinct yet equal Persons..." So why is it there?? People have tried over time(without success) to plainly describe the Holy Trinity of God. If you are still confused as to what Christians believe, let me tell you. We believe in One God & that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ to die for our sins. This is the very pillars of the Christian faith.
Let me tell you something you never heard before.The reason why you can not explain Trinity is because its LIES.
>--> Again this dwells on the concept of the Holy Trinity. Many Muslims I have encounter will quote the commandment," You shall have no other gods before Me" then accuse Christians of breaking the commandment. God is One, the Son is the Father & the Father, the Son. At this point of writing, I am not sure of how to put it to you, Sulaiman.
>
Do not bother putting anything to me, I do not listen to lies.
--> Tempering isn't an accurate word, Sulaiman. I indeed have come across articles that suggest some changes in the Bible(but please remember, changes in the form of different word pronunciations & not the form of adding/extracting verses). Likewise, I have come across articles that suggest that the Quran wasn't perserved as thought.
Firefly, were you there when this took place? How do you know this is what happened?
>>--> Different views?? Ok, tell me what different views? Are there any Bibles that say Jesus isn't the Son of God??(if you are talking about the Muslims intrepretation of the Bible, that is another story) Are there any Bibles that say Jesus didn't died on the cross??
Have you heard of Christians called Unitarians? These are not Muslims but they do not believe in Trinity.
>Your statement: What yardstick did you
>use to measure its TRUTHFULNESS?
>
>My statement: God
Go read what I said to Jared regarding this.
>Your statement: I beleive that the
>Bible was taken out of
>course long ago.It bears proof
>of the fallible craft,mankind.Its devinity
>was impurified.Its obvious that if
>you drink from an impure
>stream you become impure yourself.
>
>--> I disagree. Islam is impure, it represents not that of God but of other impure elements.. <-- See where these kind of statements(& yours) bring us?? NO WHERE!! What I am trying to say is that such statements of yours is meaningless. It does not forge whatsoever understanding between Christians & Muslims.
Do not tell me Islam is impure without telling me what is impure about it.The Bible is impurified by men, whether you agree with that or not is a different story altogether.I will not reprimand you for saying Islam is impure, provided you show me how this is.Can you say the same to me about Christianity?
Thanks
Sulaiman
>Hi Sulaiman
You wrote:
>Okay Jared.Let me make it easy
>for you.You said when you
>pray you do not SEE
>three Gods, right? Now tell
>me what you can SEE
>when you pray.
What are you making easy for me? I see what God lets me see. What are you after with this question? I made a simple statement to illustrate that I do not worship three Gods. Now where are you going with this?
>
>You know to me you sound
>like someone who has a
>very incoherent conception of God.You
>have no idea of the
>God you are worshiping.It looks
>like you do not understand
>the meaning of the word
>'ONE GOD'.
It doesn't suprise me that you feel this way. What I believe is very simple but you don't believe that Jesus is one with God, so that makes things seem very complicated to you. You think that I believe a lie and that I won't face the facts. But I've read the same facts as you. I know every verse that you use to argue against Christianity. I have studied the history of Christianity. I'm not trying to hide my face from the truth. I am willing to let the truth be what it is.
>
>
>>(Mark 12:29) "Hear O Israel, the
>>Lord thy God is One."
>
>>This is what Jesus said first.
>> Praise be to God.
>
>Good.Now tell me.Is this statement inclusive
>or exclusive of Jesus? In
>other words when he said
>this did he mean he
>was God himself or not?
Of course I believe that it is inclusive of Jesus. Have you read Phi. 2:4-11, but since you believe like many others that the Bible is corrupt and foul, will reading this convince you?
>
>
>>The different views within the Bible
>>are different aspects of one
>>view that seem contradictory to
>>those who reject the Truth
>>of God's Word.>
>
>Goodness!!!! Are you listening to yourself.How
>on earth can you have
>DIFFERENT views of ONE thing?Jared,
>if I have to tell
>you the sky is not
>blue but pink what would
>you say to me?
>
Easy, look at one aspect then look at another aspect of anything, and you will have different views of one thing. The views do not contradict, they add up, they contribute to your understanding of the thing being viewed.
>>God's Word is the 'yardstick'.
>
>You are confused.God's Word can not
>be a yardstick, is your
>CONCLUSION.Do you get the difference?
>There must be some TEST
>you use in a word
>before you conclude that its
>God's Word.Now I want to
>know the TEST not the
>RESULTS.
Sulaiman, God's Word IS what measures everything. Is a man’s logic supreme to God’s Word?
The atheists test God’s Word with their own logic too.
>>Of course I did consider its
>>authenticity and it is not
>>the only book I have
>>read.
>
>Now we are getting somewhere.Tell me
>what mechanism you used to
>authenticate it.
I believe in the Integrity of God’s Word. That’s where I start, with belief. I haven’t looked for something to authenticate it but all that I have read about the history of manuscripts, the blood of the martyrs , the history of Churches, affirms the integrity of God’s Word.
>
>>If I would have said I
>>read it and read it
>>and read it, and prayed
>>and prayed for long
>>hours, and read other religious
>>texts, and that I tested
>>its teachings, and experienced their
>>fruit, perhaps this would be
>>a helpful supplement for you
>>to understand what the context
>>of my 'simple' reading was.
>
>What I mean here is did
>you consider the HISTORY of
>the Church?This is the question
>you are avoiding.
Are you talking about the sins committed in the name of Christianity?
Sulaiman, If a person claims to be a Christian while rejecting God and disobeying God, won’t God see that justice is done? Why would you use the sins of man to strengthen your case against Christianity?
>
>>If you would have seen where
>>I was heading before I
>>believed on God's Word, compared
>>to where I am now,
>>you would not be able
>>to say that the stream
>>I drank from made me
>>impure. Please, before you face
>>the Judgement day, make sure
>>that your accusations are
>>not false.
>
>Jared, what difference does it make?
>The stream you are drinking
>from is STILL impure.You are
>worried about where you have
>BEEN, I am worried about
>where you are NOW.I can
>not comment on where you
>have been because I do
>not have a clue of
>it but I do know
>where you are now. Before
>you worry about me and
>Judgement Day, you should worry
>about YOURSELF and Judgement Day.
The salvation of my soul is truly worthy of my fear and trembling.
This does concern me before my concern for you.
>>Do you really believe that the
>>Bible was taken out of
>>course, and if so, do
>>you believe it was taken
>>out of course before the
>>Quran was written or after?
>
>What difference will this make? Those
>who took it out of
>course did not use the
>Quraan,neither did they know it,
>so what has the Quraan
>got to do with this?
>But just to give you
>a chance, I will tell
>you what Bishop Ignatius said.He
>was the Bishop in the
>city called Antioch, died in
>100AC.In a letter he wrote
>to his friend he said:'The
>idea of making Jesus God
>was well established within 100
>years after his departure'.So what
>do you make of this?
>The Quraan was revealed just
>over 600AC.
If Bishop Ignatius said this then he was deceived. But, although the Quran speaks against the Sonship of Jesus, where does it state that the Christian Scriptures are perverted with lies?
>
Thanks,
Jared
Riyadh,
You wrote:
But you know, exposing the faults in their reasoning, the lack of authenticity of the book they currently call the Bible, the incomprehensibility of their explanation of salvation...it gets old after a while. You talk to one and he avoids you every time he sees you from then on...but there's always a new one tomorrow or next week or two weeks from now-and they're always hitting you with the same illogical dialogue.
---
---
It really must get old Riyadh. Perhaps sometime God will let you see Christians who give their whole lives just to feed and clothe the poor, or Christians who have no fear on their face as they are about to be shot, or Christians who would rather die than compromise their faith, or Christians who would never avoid you. Because the reality of a person screams out while his dialogue whispers, yet both can be ignored. Instead of answering your arguments against the authenticity of the Bible or the nature of Jesus over and over again, which is tedious and not satisfying to you, perhaps we should just be quiet and let our actions speak, let the countenance of our face testify. Is it because of lack of authenticity that you do not embrace Christianity? I don't think so. So why should we try to argue? To answer someones questions is different than having a sword fight of words. I hope God lets you meet Christians that do not fit the charicature you have described.
Sincerely,
Jared
Sulaiman
19-05-2001, 11:16
>>Hi Jared
>What are you making easy for
>me? I see what God
>lets me see. What
>are you after with this
>question? I made a simple
>statement to illustrate that I
>do not worship three Gods.
>Now where are you going
>with this?
I will tell you where I am taking this.I am trying, very hard, to exorcise you from the parrot-like character that you are in.All I am doing is to try and explain to you that God is Indivisible and
Invisible.Do you agree that God is Invisible?
>It doesn't suprise me that you
>feel this way. What I
>believe is very simple but
>you don't believe that Jesus
>is one with God, so
>that makes things seem very
>complicated to you.
Correction, Trinity is not simple if this was the case you will be able to EXPLAIN it but you can not can you? Therefore the remaining conclusion is that you are CONFUSED.
You think
>that I believe a lie
>and that I won't face
>the facts. But I've read
>the same facts as you.
>I know every verse that
>you use to argue against
>Christianity.
It does not help to 'know' the verse WITHOUT undwerstanding its MEANING.If you UNDERSTOOD the verses you would appreciate the lies in the Bible.
I have studied the
>history of Christianity. I'm not
>trying to hide my face
>from the truth. I am
>willing to let the truth
>be what it is.
What truth is that? Obviously you have not understood the history.All those who have understood it DO appreciate the impurity in it.To understand something you must cease to be a parrot and become a thinking human being.
>Of course I believe that it
>is inclusive of Jesus. Have
>you read Phi. 2:4-11, but
>since you believe like many
>others that the Bible is
>corrupt and foul, will
>reading this convince you?
All you are doing is POINT out to me the contradictions in the Bible and not analysing them......thats the problem.To any thinking person, there presence of these contradictions makes it apparent that its corrupt.This is where our belief that its corrupt stem from, its a founded belief.Can you argue against a founded belief by merely denying its claim even though its in front of you? In fact, in this case, its more than in front of you.You actually BELIEVE in it.
>Easy, look at one aspect then
>look at another aspect of
>anything, and you will have
>different views of one thing.
>The views do not contradict,
>they add up, they contribute
>to your understanding of the
>thing being viewed.
No its not easy because you failed to answer my question properly.I asked you whar would you say if I told you the sky is not blue but pink? Please just answer my question, stop telling me things I never asked for.
>Sulaiman, God's Word IS what measures
>everything. Is a man’s
>logic supreme to God’s Word?
You are missing the point here, intentionally.The problem here is the Bible is not as pure as it was.Is that difficult to understand?You can not correct this corruption by pretending its pure.You are right, God's Word is by far above everything but its not the case with the Bible.Do not lose sight of what we are talking about here......WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE.Do not forget that.
>I believe in the Integrity of
>God’s Word. That’s where I
>start, with belief. I
>haven’t looked for something to
> authenticate it but all
>that I have read about
>the history of manuscripts, the
>blood of the martyrs ,
> the history of Churches,
>affirms the integrity of God’s
>Word.
I do believe in the integrity of God's Word.That is why I get very upset when human beings corrupt it.But I do not think you do since to you it does not matter whether the God's Word is kept pure or not.
>Are you talking about the sins
>committed in the name of
>Christianity?
>Sulaiman, If a person claims to
>be a Christian while rejecting
>God and disobeying God, won’t
>God see that justice is
>done?
Of course, God is The Most Just.
Why would you use
>the sins of man to
>strengthen your case against Christianity?
Because I told you that if you drink from an impure stream you become impure yourself.Did not I mention this?
>If Bishop Ignatius said this then
>he was deceived.
Decieved by whom?
But,although the Quran speaks against
>the Sonship of Jesus, where
>does it state that
>the Christian Scriptures are perverted
>with lies?
The Quraan does not have to mention anything...I can see the corruption myself.
>Thanks,
Sulaiman
Statement:
>--> How did you conclude that the concept of the Trinity came only after Jesus???
I knew this question was coming.Very easy actually.Which human race had the Holy scriptures with them before the arrival of Jesus? The Jews.What is the Jew's concept of God? One INDIVISIBLE BEING.Got it?
--> Sulaiman, the concept of the Holy Trinity was ever there during the time when Jesus was on Earth. The Jews were ignorant about Jesus said, all of it is basically written in the Scriptures. It was only after Jesus' ascension did they realised that what He said was true. I can only ask you to read & analyse the Scriptures. The book of John in my opinion, certainly answer all of your questions very well. As I read through it, all that you have been arguing here is already answered in the Book.
Statement: Jesus' authority &
>purpose is clearly underlined in
>the Scriptures & testimonial to
>His teachings are His disciples
>as you can find in
>the Scriptures..
This has nothing to do with the nature of God.
--> Please read & understand the Scriptures..
Om_Mohammed
19-05-2001, 14:55
It is similar, Jared...with muslims...there are many who spend their whole life in the struggle for the cause of Allah, feeding and clothing the poor, helping others in all manners and matters that they possibly can, giving a good countenance wherever they look, regardless of whom it is that they are seeing. That is the eminence of Islam...the true essence. Perhaps you yourself have not witnessed that.
A reminder for all here...muslims and non-muslims alike. Interaction with others, regardless if you are in the real world, or this computer world of the internet...people are rather like mirrors. In many situations...you receive what you give to the other. If you treat the other with respect and generosity and kindness, then that is most generally what you will get in return. However, if you come onto the battlefield, and with mean countenance, and disrespect in words and actions and tone, then that is also what you most generally will get in return.
Actually, this discussion is really getting nowhere. All those involved here are seemingly concrete in their convictions. So...what is the use to carry on? Only for a waste of time and energy, and to make the nervous tensions rise?
I have one point to all non-muslims here. The 'Abrahamic' religions...i.e. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam...are all divinely revealed religions. Perhaps you have some problem accepting or realizing that Islam as well is a divinely related religion. All have brought the truth and guidance from only ONE source. Much as is christianity merely an expansion and improvement upon the judaism, so is islam an expansion and improvement upon christianity. There were reasons necessitating the deliverance of the completion of the message, and that is islam. It is a simple equation of deduction, and time-related revelations. Each one is the natural progression of the other.
This is not meant to insult you in any way, you non-muslims...but rather to help to enlighten you to the message of Islam, and to soften your hearts to that message. If you remain unwilling to understand or even to attempt to understand, then that is your problem, and not ours here. It is you who have come here, trying to convert what you apparently assume to be 'heathens' and uncivilized, for we do not accept or follow your ways. We have not invaded your site...it is you who have come here.
This thread will thereby be closed within 24 hours, inshaAllah...for it is only going in circles, and not achieving any end in sight.
Again, as a reminder and warning...read the Quran...delving into it, and pondering on it much as you do your own bible. It is only in that way that you will ever understand the message of islam.
If you have some other true questions to learn about islam, or to find out for yourselves what Islam is, then you are welcome. Otherwise, please discontinue your preaching here.
Om Mohammed.
>>>Sulaiman
>I will tell you where I
>am taking this.I am trying,
>very hard, to exorcise you
>from the parrot-like character that
>you are in.All I am
>doing is to try and
>explain to you that God
>is Indivisible and
>Invisible.Do you agree that God is
>Invisible?
Sulaiman, how many times do have to say that I believe God is indivisable and that I have not see Him?
>
.......Trinity is not simple if
>this was the case you
>will be able to EXPLAIN
>it but you can not
>can you? Therefore the remaining
>conclusion is that you are
>CONFUSED.
One indivisible God, eternally, equally and fully present in three united Persons. This is simple.
However trying to understand how God is one and fully present in three persons is like tryng to fully comprehend how God is and was and always has been, or how God can see everywhere at all times.
>
Obviously you
>have not understood the history.All
>those who have understood it
>DO appreciate the impurity in
>it.To understand something you must
>cease to be a parrot
>and become a thinking human
>being.
Sulaiman, you should not be hasty in judging someone to be less then a thinking human being
I said:
>>Of course I believe that it
>>is inclusive of Jesus. Have
>>you read Phi. 2:4-11, but
>>since you believe like many
>>others that the Bible is
>>corrupt and foul, will
>>reading this convince you?
You responded:
>All you are doing is POINT
>out to me the contradictions
>in the Bible and not
>analysing them......thats the problem.To any
>thinking person, there presence of
>these contradictions makes it apparent
>that its corrupt.This is where
>our belief that its corrupt
>stem from, its a founded
>belief.Can you argue against a
>founded belief by merely denying
>its claim even though its
>in front of you? In
>fact, in this case, its
>more than in front of
>you.You actually BELIEVE in it.
>
So, will you congratulate the atheist Sulaiman? I'm sure he will agree with many of your criticisms of God's Word.
Have I really made a habit of just flat out denying your claims Sulaiman? Haven't I tried to argue my position?
>>Easy, look at one aspect then
>>look at another aspect of
>>anything, and you will have
>>different views of one thing.
>>The views do not contradict,
>>they add up, they contribute
>>to your understanding of the
>>thing being viewed.
>
>No its not easy because you
>failed to answer my question
>properly.I asked you whar would
>you say if I told
>you the sky is not
>blue but pink? Please just
>answer my question, stop telling
>me things I never asked
>for.
I'm sorry, I thought you were asking a rhetorical question.
My response to your question, (unless we were looking at the pink sky at dusk) would be:
"Sulaiman, I think you should get your eyes checked! The sky is as blue as indigo this afternoon!" , or something like that.
>>Sulaiman, God's Word IS what measures
>>everything. Is a man’s
>>logic supreme to God’s Word?
>
>You are missing the point here,
>intentionally.The problem here is the
>Bible is not as pure
>as it was.Is that difficult
>to understand?You can not correct
>this corruption by pretending its
>pure.You are right, God's Word
>is by far above everything
>but its not the case
>with the Bible.Do not lose
>sight of what we are
>talking about here......WE ARE TALKING
>ABOUT THE BIBLE.Do not forget
>that.
Are you really sure of my intentions?
Do you believe that there is anything pure in the Bible?
> Why would you use
>>the sins of man to
>>strengthen your case against Christianity?
>
>Because I told you that if
>you drink from an impure
>stream you become impure yourself.Did
>not I mention this?
Yes, I understand your response
>
>>If Bishop Ignatius said this then
>>he was deceived.
>
>Decieved by whom?
If he said this, ( What document are you referring to for this info.?) then his deception must ultimately have been from the Devil ,probably in conjunction with his own pride and sin.
>
>But,although the Quran speaks against
>>the Sonship of Jesus, where
>>does it state that
>>the Christian Scriptures are perverted
>>with lies?
>
>The Quraan does not have to
>mention anything...I can see the
>corruption myself.
Again, I leave you with this question:
Do you think that there is anything pure in the Bible?
Sincerely,
Jared
Om Mohammed,
Do you really think that I was preaching to Riyadh? He painted a picture of Christians that was a charicature, and I responded to challange that charicature.
For what its worth, I agree that this discussion thread is going nowhere. When I put myself in your shoes and think about how I would moderate a comparitive religion site from a Christian perspective, I can think of many challenges I would probably face.
But perhaps you're wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
I have posted no vulgarities, most of my posts have been short and concise and I have been asking questions.
I just wonder, Om Mohammed, what motivates your definition of preaching on this site? Do you actually want any real dialogue with real Christians? Or do you want to force the Islamic point of view to dominate this discussion? I get the feeling that if I make any coherent statement of my position you will call it 'preaching' and ban it. If this is the case then please do not call this "Comparative Religions" call it "An Islamic perspective on Comparative Religions"
Sincerely,
Jared
I agree with you, Jared. I believe as Christians here, we have provided quite a few thoughts to Muslims towards their approach to Christianity. In the first place, I didn't intended(& not intending) to insult any Muslims here. The topic itself, "Can Salvation Be Reached Through Christ?" has prompted me to answer & by far, indeed I have gained a valuable insight on how Muslims rationalise the Scriptures & so forth. This topic is basically more towards the understanding of Scriptures. This forum is called Comparative Religions & therefore I am here for such purposes.
Sulaiman
21-05-2001, 19:42
Hi there
>Sulaiman, how many times do have
>to say that I believe
>God is indivisable and that
>I have not see Him?
How can you tell me that you believe in the Indivisible God when you believe that Jesus is God? How is this possible?
>One indivisible God, eternally, equally and
>fully present in three united
>Persons. This is simple.
Please man, get yourself together now.Do you know what the meaning of the word idivisible? I do not think so.Had you known you would not speak of One Indivisible God and three united Persons at the same time.Let me ask you.....what do you believe in?
>Sulaiman, you should not be hasty
>in judging someone to be
>less then a thinking human
>being
I am only doing that which Jesus said: Judging a tree by its fruit.
>So, will you congratulate the atheist
>Sulaiman? I'm sure he will
>agree with many of your
>criticisms of God's Word.
I do not have a problem with an atheist that criticises something worthy of criticism.I will only have a problem when he criticises that which is not worthy of criticism.Why do you keep saying the Bible is the Word of God.......IT IS NOT ANYMORE.You go around calling everything a Word of God.
>Have I really made a habit
>of just flat out denying
>your claims Sulaiman? Haven't I
>tried to argue my position?
What you have shown is lack of UNDERSTANDING of what you are SAYING.
>I'm sorry, I thought you were
>asking a rhetorical question.
>My response to your question, (unless
>we were looking at the
>pink sky at dusk) would
>be:
>
>"Sulaiman, I think you should get
>your eyes checked! The sky
>is as blue as indigo
>this afternoon!" , or something
>like that.
Why would you tell me this? What would you say if I insisted the sky is pink? Would not you be the one mistaken?
>Are you really sure of my
>intentions?
What is this suppose to mean?
>Do you believe that there is
>anything pure in the Bible?
Yes there is.....but its so little such that its neglegible.Those who worked on the Bible made sure they bury the pure part.I do not know how this little survived, its a miracle.
>Yes, I understand your response
Very good. I am glad you do.
>>If Bishop Ignatius said this then
>>he was deceived.
>>
>>Decieved by whom?
>If he said this, ( What
>document are you referring
>to for this info.?) then
>his deception must ultimately have
>been from the Devil ,probably
>in conjunction with his own
>pride and sin.
How do you know you are not the one deceived by the Devil?Also please stop refering me to the letter that Paul wrote and tell me its the word of God or Jesus.Paul is a part of the problem in the Bible.He started this 'revolutionising' the Word of Christ.
>Again, I leave you with this
>question:
>Do you think that there is
>anything pure in the Bible?
Very little, very little.
>Sincerely,
Sulaiman
Your statement: Please man, get yourself together now.Do you know what the meaning of the word idivisible? I do not think so.Had you known you would not speak of One Indivisible God and three united Persons at the same time.Let me ask you.....what do you believe in?
--> Here we go again. The KJ Bible puts forth an explaination for the ancient symbol for the Trinity. That explaination, "..distinct yet equal Persons and indivisibly One God" Now, this is by no means describing in full the exact meaning of the Holy Trinity. Language has a certain limit to explain God, for language is that of earthly....Ah, what the use???
Your statement: Yes there is.....but its so little such that its neglegible.Those who worked on the Bible made sure they bury the pure part.I do not know how this little survived, its a miracle.
--> I see your "rationalisation"...
Your statement: How do you know you are not the one deceived by the Devil?Also please stop refering me to the letter that Paul wrote and tell me its the word of God or Jesus.Paul is a part of the problem in the Bible.He started this 'revolutionising' the Word of Christ
--> Perhaps you try understanding the Scriptures?? "Revolutionising" the Scriptures? First, you claim the Bible is utterly corrupted..next, it is "revolutionised"? Then, how is it that I find what Paul wrote is in line in exactly what Jesus said?(I wonder what you'll say)
Om_Mohammed
24-05-2001, 04:04
Religion is something that cannot be forced upon anyone...it is something that is a personal choice, regardless of what anyone may desire or hope for in this world.
This is a debate forum here...and a 'comparative religion' forum...indicating that it is a forum in which each side (namely islam and christianity) presents it's case and argument. It is obvious that that is exactly what has happened here.
Although there are many smaller and particular differences between christianity and islam, there are still yet many similarities, as well. I am amazed at the general nature of people to so often concentrate on the differences and not on the similarities, resulting in the tendency for people to wish to convert one another to their way of thinking. That is not possible.
Perhaps the greates and major difference between islam and christianity is this: The theory and belief in the essence of God Almighty. The christians are stating that they believe in only one God, yet they are eminating and explaining and understanding that being of three entities. The muslims are stating of their belief in only ONE God...period. No other entity of Creator other than that one being. It is a more simple, understandable, logical approach.
So....please tell me, all...what is the point in going on here?
Br. Sulaiman...a word of advice, brother...do not continue to waste your time in a circular argument that is going nowhere. You have done a good job in presenting and arguing the point of islam, the decree and understanding of one single God. If others wish to accept, that is fine and good, and if others remain to refuse, then that is fine, also.
For all christians and other non-muslims viewing this forum: Again, I reiterate: it is you who have come here to this islamic site. We have not invaded upon you or your 'territory'. You are welcome here. But...really, this thread is going nowhere. Your explanation of the trinity theory is nothing new. We have presented to you many evidences and much argument against it, and logical understanding goes more along the line to think of and to understand God...our Creator...yours and mine...to be one, not any combination of other numbers. If you choose to accept that or not...either way is fine. Perhaps it is time for you to reflect upon why is it that there are so many previous christians the world over...men and women both...who have come to islam...a religion which appeals to man's sense of logic and understanding, a religion which is a lifestyle for daily life more than a mere religion...a religion which is a very basic belief, and something which man naturally tends towards.
This is not a contest of who can gain more converts for their religion. No...it is much more than that and more deeper than that. It is truly a life and death question. For...there will come a day..when all will be questioned...and it is a day in which all will testify truthfully, regardless if they are willing or unwilling...each will testify the truth...and much evidence will be presented to prove that truth. All will be questioned...was the message presented to you? And...if it was...what was your response? and...if you denied it...then why?
I pray that I will be among the favored that day...and that I will be able to answer that which will not result in punishment.
A dire warning for all: Beware of being too obstinate and too arrogant of the message of islam. What is islam...other than true and complete submission to the will of God? It is truly that simple.
Om Mohammed.
Om Mohammed,
It is so far from a contest for converts, so dreadfully far from that. In this I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Islam has a criticism against Biblical Christianity. If this criticism is false then Islam is false. Islam claims to have the final and corrective perspective on 'previous' revelation.
You seem to maintain that at its inception Christianity was pure. Nowhere in the New Testament, does anyone accuse the previous written revelation of being lost due to human intervention and perversion of the message. Nowhere do ANY of the prophets in the Old Testament accuse the previous written revelation of being lost due to human intervention and perversion of the message.
Perhaps you will say that there is no mention of this, precisely because it has been excised from the books. Yet you know as well as I that the dreadful oracles directed against the disobedient Jews in the Old Testament, the curses of Moses, the prophecies of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah to name some, none of these were conveniently extracted from the writings by the will of man. And in the New Testament, none of the character flaws of the diciples are hidden, none of the criticisms that Paul directs to various churches is edited out, none of the judgements against the churches in the Book of Revelation has been removed.Why not? If Christians and Jews have perverted the written record to suite themselves, why have they left volumes of words that reflect so harshly upon themselves?
When God revealed something to a prophet to record in writing. He was and has always been and will always be able to keep that word pure, in spite of the bad motives of men. Islam bears the burden of proof because it claims that only through Mohammed has God preserved what he has spoken. All other times God's words were twisted. Christianity does not make such claims about God's words. We believe that when God spoke through all his prophets, He kept the record of these words from being twisted.
The revelation that God gave through His prophets endures, period. This is the simple and logical position of Christianity.
Out of all God's true prophets, you maintain that only one has a message that cannot be twisted and distorted. Please consider this claim with deep sobriety. The veracity of your belief hangs upon it. Christianity does not hang upon such an allegation and none of God's prophets have discounted the record of the others.
Sincerely,
Jared
Sulaiman
28-05-2001, 17:57
Hi there
>--> Here we go again. The KJ Bible puts forth an explaination for the ancient symbol for the Trinity. That explaination, "..distinct yet equal Persons and indivisibly One God" Now, this is by no means describing in full the exact meaning of the Holy Trinity. Language has a certain limit to explain God, for language is that of earthly....Ah, what the use???
Firefly, I am asking you to think about what you are saying here, at least listen to yourself.Do not keep reciting the biblical rhetoric like a parrot here.I am asking you to apply your mind for God's sake.What do you understand by the term INDIVISIBLE?
>Your statement: Yes there is.....but its
>so little such that its
>neglegible.Those who worked on the
>Bible made sure they bury
>the pure part.I do not
>know how this little survived,
>its a miracle.
>--> I see your "rationalisation"...
No you do not see anything.What I am doing is TELL you what happened to your bible, I am not 'rationalising' anything here.
>--> Perhaps you try understanding the Scriptures?? "Revolutionising" the Scriptures? First, you claim the Bible is utterly corrupted..next, it is "revolutionised"? Then, how is it that I find what Paul wrote is in line in exactly what Jesus said?(I wonder what you'll say)
Thats the problem, I can not understand the bible.The is no sense in it.Its like it was made for another creation other than human.It is humanly IMPOSSIBLE to understand what the bible speak about.Excuse me!!!!!!Did I hear you right? You said Paul said the samething with Jesus? Really I do not know what your problem is,there is something not human with your mind.What was Paul's view regarding LAW and what was Jesus's?
Think for some time......it does not hurt.
Thanks
Sulaiman
Sulaiman
28-05-2001, 18:07
Salaams
You are right about one thing.Sometimes when you are talking to these people its like talking to the WALL, nothing goes through.It reminds me of Surah Yasin where Allah(SWT) says: 'We have put a bar in front of them, We have put a bar behind them and further We have covered them up so they can not see.The same is it to them whether thou admonish them or not they will not believe'.This is exaclty what we are dealing with here,parrots.I have no idea what will it take for these people to finally wake up from this state.The more I talk to these people the more I am grateful to Allah(SWT) for showing me guidance.Remember, there is no LIGHT where Allah(SWT) does not shed LIGHT.
Wasalaams
Sulaiman
Sulaiman
28-05-2001, 18:27
Hi
>Islam has a criticism against Biblical
>Christianity. If this criticism is
>false then Islam is false.
See how parrots reason.......!!! Who told you Islam is all about criticising Christianity.Islam is not predicated on this.It has its OWN purified set of laws, its independent of other religions.One thing I like though from what you say is that finally you seem to understand that Islam and Christianity stand poles apart, their belief system differ FUNDAMENTALLY.I am glad you can see that one is true and the other is not.Its a good start, now move on from there by viewing each independently.Inshallah, you will see the right from wrong.
> Islam claims to have
>the final and corrective perspective
>on 'previous' revelation.
Absolutely, do you have any doubts on this?
>You seem to maintain that at
>its inception Christianity was pure.
>Nowhere in the New Testament,
>does anyone accuse the previous
>written revelation of being lost
>due to human intervention and
>perversion of the message. Nowhere
>do ANY of the prophets
>in the Old Testament accuse
>the previous written revelation of
>being lost due to human
>intervention and perversion of the
>message.
Jared, we are getting somewhere now.Think back, when was the tempering with the scripturews done? It was done after Jesus.Does this help you in anyway?
>Perhaps you will say that there
>is no mention of this,
>precisely because it has been
>excised from the books. Yet
>you know as well as
>I that the dreadful
>oracles directed against the disobedient
>Jews in the Old Testament,
>the curses of Moses, the
>prophecies of Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah
>to name some, none of
>these were conveniently extracted from
>the writings by the will
>of man. And in the
>New Testament, none of the
>character flaws of the diciples
>are hidden, none of the
>criticisms that Paul directs to
>various churches is edited out,
>none of the judgements against
>the churches in the Book
>of Revelation has been removed.Why
>not? If Christians and Jews
>have perverted the written record
> to suite themselves, why
>have they left volumes of
>words that reflect so harshly
>upon themselves?
The Jews are much better than you.At least they still remember that God is ONE and INDIVISIBLE, unlike you.If I had to chose between you and a Jew, I will chose a Jew.
>When God revealed something to a
>prophet to record in writing.
>He was and has always
>been and will always be
>able to keep that word
>pure, in spite of the
>bad motives of men. Islam
>bears the burden of proof
>because it claims that only
>through Mohammed has God preserved
>what he has spoken. All
>other times God's words were
>twisted. Christianity does not make
>such claims about God's words.
>We believe that when God
>spoke through all his prophets,
>He kept the record of
>these words from being twisted.
Do not get confused now, what the Quraan says is not a claim but FACT.
>The revelation that God gave through
>His prophets endures, period. This
>is the simple and logical
>position of Christianity.
Do you see the difference? When I say that to you the Quraan is protected by the Allmighty, I can trace that to the Quraan.Can you do the same with the bible? Can you show me where God gives His assurance that He will preserve the Bible?
>Out of all God's true prophets,
>you maintain that only one
>has a message that cannot
>be twisted and distorted. Please
>consider this claim with deep
>sobriety. The veracity of your
>belief hangs upon it. Christianity
>does not hang upon such
>an allegation and none of
>God's prophets have discounted the
>record of the others.
Goodness.What are you trying to say? The change was not done by prophets but followers.Again the issue of protecting the revelation, its what God says in the Quraan, its not what WE think.
>Sincerely,
Sulaiman
Hello Sulaiman,
I understand that you believe you are right, and that you believe your accusations are well founded. I understand that you believe I am in error and that the Bible is in error. You call me a parrot over and over again and accuse me of being less than a thinking human being.(post 85,92, etc.) You justify this judgement by saying you are simply 'judging a tree by its fruit'. I wonder why, if indeed you have the insight to judge that I were a parrot and sub-human, why you as a blessed, thinking human being wouldn't show more merciful restraint, some compassion for one who you believe to be blind and groping and lost? Do you really think you're accomplishing something productive in name calling? Does the Quran teach that non-Muslims are sub-human?
Sincerely,
Jared
Sulaiman
30-05-2001, 10:09
>Hello Jared,
>I understand that you believe you
>are right, and that you
>believe your accusations are well
>founded.
Of course my accusations are well founded. The problem is that you are denying their being so.The problem is not with me sir, its with you.
I understand that you
>believe I am in error
>and that the Bible is
>in error.
No you do not understand anything.There is nothing which indicates your understanding of what we spoke about.That is the problem you see, no progress.
You call me
>a parrot over and over
>again and accuse me of
>being less than a thinking
>human being.(post 85,92, etc.)
Jared, that is what you have proven to be in my judgement.All I am doing is describe what I am seeing.Can you blame me for that? You have not proven yourself otherwise to me.All you did was keep reciting what you read from the Bible WITHOUT understanding, that is why I called you a parrot.If you feel sad about what I said and hold me responsible for it, I think you are knocking the wrong tree.I am not the one who ordered you to recite what the Bible says and take it at face value.The solution here is not holding me accountable.All that you should be doing is have an OPEN-MIND, do not confine yourself.That is the solution here sir.Can you prove to me that you are different from a parrot when it comes to faith?
You
>justify this judgement by saying
> you are simply 'judging
>a tree by its fruit'.
Yes, Jesus said this...........remember?
>I wonder why, if indeed
> you have the insight
>to judge that I were
>a parrot and sub-human, why
>you as a blessed, thinking
>human being wouldn't show
>more merciful restraint, some compassion
>for one who you believe
>to be blind and groping
>and lost?
Why do you refer to yourself as sub-human? I never said you were this, you are human Jared....believe or not you are.Do not take things out of context, I was judging you BASED on your FAITH, not your entire self.To be sub-human you have to fail all the components of human-self.I do not think that is the case with you.Then again you know yourself better than I, if that is what you see yourself to be, there is nothing I can say or do.What really upset me with you is that I can tell from your posts that you are a man of faith.It puzzles me how you can seek refuge in Christianity when Islam can offer you refuge both in this world and in the Hereafter.........why this waste?Then again, untill Islam is presented to you, you will never know about it.Untill its offer is made to you, you will never leave what you have.The only time you will leave what you have is when you see something better than what you have.Do you want my free advice? I think you should kneel down and pray asking the Creator DIRECTLY to show you the way that comes DIRECTLY to Him, if you do this with sincere INTENTION,if He wills, you will see the way.
Do you really
>think you're accomplishing something productive
>in name calling?
Again, this is not about me, its about you.I do not need to accomplish anything, you have.You need to accomplish the TRUTH,I already know the truth.Thats the greatest accomplishment.
Does
>the Quran teach that non-Muslims
>are sub-human?
No it does not, I never said it does.What it does teach me is that the GREATEST sin of them all is to associate partners with the Creator.It tells me to guard myself against this because people who do this have only one way..........to HELL.The tragedy is that after realising the truth, you do not get time to come back on earth to be a Muslim.You miss this opportunity you are gone, that is it. Think about that one, very seriously. To get back to your question, the Quraan teaches me that the non-Muslims are the enemies of the Allmighty.Now being Muslim myself, the enemy of the Allmighty is my enemy.
>Sincerely,
Sulaiman
Sulaiman,
You say:
(To get back to your question, the Quraan teaches me that the non-Muslims are the enemies of the Allmighty.Now being Muslim myself, the enemy of the Allmighty is my enemy. )
Do you believe that you should love your enemy?
Also,
Do you believe that there are such things as false prophets?
Also,
What, if anything, could pursuade you that the Quran is not true?
Sulaiman
04-06-2001, 15:56
Jared,
>Do you believe that you should
>love your enemy?
This is not how you should view this.Before asking me this, start by asking me what makes someone my enemy.Try and look at the reasons why they are my enemy.Because my enemy is someone not obeying the Almighty's law, I can not make friends with such person, I can not love such a person.You see loving someone originates from something, there must be something you both share.I am a believer, I share loving the Almighty with other believers, that is why I love them.I love them because they love the One I love, the Almighty.This can not be said about a disbeliever.I have told you what brings me close to a believer, now could you tell me why I should love my enemy?
>Also,
>Do you believe that there are
>such things as false prophets?
Yes I believe that.So........what is your point?
>Also,
>What, if anything, could pursuade you
>that the Quran is not
>true?
If I reach that state than..........hell is on my sholders.I will cease to be a believer, if that happens it would be tragic indeed.The Quraan is the only LIGHT to take ANYBODY from the darkness, if I had to throw away this LIGHT. What would become of me? You see, I enjoy the way I am. I can not say I have fully defined myself if I did not mention the love I have for my Creator.I will do my best for as long as I live, to keep closing the distance between me and my Creator.I am certainly not in a position where I would proudly say I am closer to Him, that is why I have to work on my imaan( faith), to instal the reality that there is NONE worthy of worship but Him.I have come this far, trying to get closer and closer to Him, saying that the Quraan is not true would mean I am undoing ALL the work I have done getting this far.
See you..........
Sulaiman
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So much has been said on this topic, and in so much detail. I wish to get back to the original question about original sin and the necessity of Christ's atoning death. I will try to be somewhat brief and avoid simply arguing from authority of either the Bible or the Qur'an to describe a position.
But if you want Biblical authority for what I'm about to write, Paul's entire letter to the Romans is the best summary of the two doctrinal points raised, (original sin, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross) and it even addresses the issue of how Abraham was saved. I see no point in quoting the entire letter. You can read it yourself. So I will just provide some commentary on the topics raised in this wonderful letter of Paul's:
The doctrine of original sin is probably the only religious truth in all of human history for which there is direct empirical evidence!
Let the person without sin respond otherwise!
Regarding babies going to hell, this is a gross misinterpretation of the doctrine. The doctrine maintains that all pain and suffering and death on earth are the result of original sin. The fact that a baby dies is a result of original sin. The baby is not damned to hell because of Adam's sin -- but the baby died because of Adam's sin. And the death rate is one per person; we're all going to make it!
Part of the confusion is that you probably collapse the doctrine of original sin with the notion of consupiscience. Concupiscience is the inherrent desire to sin that is a RESULT of original sin (described in Romans 7). Original sin is the condition of the universe after sin has entered the world (described in chapter 5 of Romans). Concupiscience effects everyone, and is left even after baptism or rebirth in Christ. However, concupiscience is a result of original sin, and not original sin itself.
Hell is the condition for the possibility of our freedom. We are not free to love and serve God unless we have the option to reject God. Only a person of some degree of freedom can make a completely free choice. Anihilating a person would deny the goodness of that person's existence, which the Creator cannot do.
The reality of hell is God's great compliment to our freedom. The pains of hell are the consequences of sin. Babies don't go to hell when they die -- but anyone old enough to make a free choice, and who rejects God places themselves in hell!
I am not belittling your question. Because of the importance of baptism to believers, theologians have struggled with topic before you. Some even suggested notions such as limbo (which was thought to be a place of bliss). Limbo is not in the Bible. However, this is not an official teaching according to any Pope or Council, and most theologians (Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox) completely reject it. Babies go to God when they die.
Back to original sin....
The fact that sin and oppression and war and suffering and disease and death are all part of our everyday existence is the result of original sin, and the very reason Isreal looked for a deliverer -- as all people do. Only God can save us from the calamities we face.
Jesus conqured sin and death. He did so as a man. This one man did what we all hope to do. Our hope is that we can obtain what he did. We all want eternal life with God in an incorruptible body where there is no more pain or sin.
How can Jesus' accomplishment apply to me? -- Only if it were an act of God. Only God can act with UNIVERSAL meaning and significance. But only acting as a full human being can he act with HUMAN meaning and significance. He conquered sin and death, once, for all!
Regarding the sacrificial element: This is somewhat metaphoric speech, but the metaphors I select are drawn and paraphrased from the Bible. Satan is the accuser of sin (Revelation 12:10). Satan is a fallen angel of light who was closest to God in appearence. Satan wants to use our sins to keep us from God.
Thus, Satan tempts us with evil, then plays the prosecutor accusing us of wrong -- declaring us unfit for heaven. And we ARE all sinners. Satan is not satisfied that we suffered and died on earth, since our sins outweigh the results. And God is perfectly just, so sin needs to be atoned for!
So Jesus meets the requirement of justice and gives God the right to defend the human race against Satan.
I do believe in the reality of Satan and his demons -- but like I say, the metaphors of the courtroom and sacrifice can be pushed too far. The point is, take the symbols in the spirit the authors of the New Testament intended -- as Good News!
Paul and the other New Testament authors' interpretation of the meaning of the cross and resurrection is considered primary in Christianity. However, if Christ is truly divine, the layers of meaning in these events can be infinite. Many Christians are comforted in their personal suffering knowing that God is with us in our pain, with the promise of resurrection in the end. The Tradition of the Church has continually reflected on these events and developed other interpretations. Liberation theology sees in Christ a model of socio-political engagement and the power of active non-violent resistence. Spiritual theology sees God as invoking compassion in the human heart and awakening an awareness of sin by God's act on the cross. Yet, the doctrine of orignal sin, the atonemement, and salvation by grace remain the primary message conveyed in the gospel.
Rejecting the gospel MIGHT be prompted by a refusal to place your trust in God to save you!
If I understand Islam correctly, Mohammed teaches that we are saved by our works -- making the good deeds outweigh the bad deeds.
This is NOT born out in experience. Evil destroys good in the world we live in. If I wake up, pray, hug my children, go to work where I'm given a promotion and a raise for a job well done, pray some more, give alms to beggar going out the door, leave work on a beautiful afternoon and I'm hit by car and enter a paralyzed coma, all the good I experienced that day was undone by one tragic evil. In the world we know, the mystery of evil seems to be winning. And everytime we commit personal sin, we ratify the choice of Adam -- making the situation worse for all creation!
There are Biblical distinctions regarding evil. Death is evil. Original sin is a condition we are born in where evil exists. It is not a personal fault that damns babies to hell. There are the sins of our parents that effect us as children, and we see the effects in neglectful parenting, or abusive parenting (the guilt of the ancestors being carried down for four generations). There is concupiscience -- the desire to DO evil inherent to everyone -- which everyone old enough to reason recognizes. There is actual sin (sin freely chosen and acted upon), sin of ommission (the failure to do good), sins of thought, mortal and venial sin (see 1 John 5:17), there are social sins decried by the prophets, such as racism, sexism and oppression of the poor, etc,...
One can even do good actions for sinful reasons. Thus, Jesus condemned as sinful those who prayed out of vanity in public, or those who gave alms publically to be seen. Such acts lead to pride and self-righteousness. It is good to pray in public and private (and even Jesus and the apostles prayed publically). But is wrong to pray in order to be seen, rather than to give glory to God.
Evil is the result of ALL sin -- and war, cancer, crime, AIDS, broken human relationships, hell, guilt and so forth are all results of the condition of sin -- but it is not an individual person's fault for EVERYTHING. The mystery of evil in our personal lives is not always caused by our personal sins (see my response to "Falwell and Robertson"). However, the world,..., nay, the entire universe was thrown out of balance by the entry of sin into the world. Sin has serious consequences. And every choice to participate in sin ratifies this condition! If we had to depend on our works, we would all be eternally doomed!
But when we place our trust in God's promises, love, goodness and forgiveness, we are saved. Abraham trusted, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Christians trust because of what God has done in Christ. The gospel is the reason for our hope!
Can Muslims be saved? Anyone can be saved who places their trust in God -- even above thier own works. Christians believe that salvation starts when we place our trust in God and we trust the One who began the work to bring it to completion as we are daily conformed to him under grace. We die to our selves, as Christ died on the cross, and we rise to new life, as Christ rose from the dead.
We should avoid sin and do good works, and the Bible is quite clear that we are rewarded for our good deeds. Good fruit is a sign of God's grace operating within us. As a Catholic, I believe that grace moves us to further works that increase grace as the salvation process unfolds. Going to Mass or Confession helps grace grow, building grace upon grace. But ultimately, it is God's grace -- and God's grace alone that saves us!
This Biblical teaching was affirmed at the Councils of Orange and Trent, though Trent added clarification that salvation by grace alone does not mean that faith and works do not both play a role in the salvation process. Protestants disagree with the Catholic articulation of the role of works in the salvation process, as well as the Catholic belief that consequences of sin can carry over to the next life in purgatory (derived from 1 Corinthians 3:15). Yet, most Protestants admit faith produces good works in the life of the believer.
When we say Jesus is the Way and the Truth and the Light, etc...what we are saying is that it is our experince that no other religion captures and expresses these essential truths as clearly as the gospel. And we are affirming that Christ has proven himself trustworthy to us.
Rejecting the gospel MIGHT be prompted by a refusal to place your trust in God to save you! Faith is not a matter of rationality -- having all the answers and resolving every contradiction. Faith is a channel of living trust between God and a person.
However, 1 Timothy 2:3-4 states that God desires the salvation of all people. Even Christians know that God is that incomprehensible mystery we face when we deeply contemplate and seriously question the very meaning of the word "God" or "Allah". The Second Vatican Council acknowledges three truths regarding this.
First, grace is made available to everyone who has ever lived. That vague, fuzzy awareness of divine holy mystery that we all know and cannot name is God's grace beginning to work in us. Anyone who places their total trust in God is touched by saving grace. I believe that many Muslims who have "submitted to Allah" have placed trust in God and entered the salvation process. This is why the Pope has recently begun praying with Islamic clerics.
Second, God reveals the gospel to those who seek him. The grace made available in the sacrament of baptism is an absolutely free gift of God -- it is not even our faith that saves us, but God's grace alone. Faith is produced by grace (which is why we Catholics baptise infants). Christ commands Christians to share this good news with others. We believe there is no salvation APART from the Church. This does not mean there is no salvation OUTSIDE the Church. Rather, it means that grace comes from God, and Christ is God, and the Church is the body of Christ. Therefore, anyone responding positively to God's invitation to trust him is somehow mystically united to the Church. It is my responsibility to clarify the path for you and give you a reason to trust and hope in God, and invite you to join the Church.
Third, anyone who rejects the gospel through no fault of their own, but still trust in God is still under the influence of saving grace. Thus, if you who are reading reject the gospel because of the bad witness of Christians in their moral lives, my faulty language or my human error in trying to present it, or any human failure to communicate the truth -- it's not counted against you, so long as your total trust is in God.
But, if you understand what I am saying, and reject it out of intellectual arrogance, hardness of heart, faith in works righteousness, superstitious attitudes about the Qur'an, inability to admit you were wrong, idolatry, pride, self righteousness, faith in consistency over faith in God, etc...you are continuing in sin. You are placing yourself in a postion of rejecting God for all eternity. God will not force you into heaven.
Hell is your other option. And if you think the results of sins are bad here, wait till you go to a place inhabited by people and spirits who have eternally rejected God in sin!!! I would not wish that on anyone! And neither does Christ, which is why he came.
When Muslims focus on rejecting certain the texts of the Bible based on trivial inconsistencies (which may have an explanaition)they miss the point of religion.
When you have misunderstandings of the meaning of the Trinity, original sin, or the atonement, God may be merciful and forgive you. However, you are still missing the point made behind, within, around and through the texts of the New Testament.
These texts were written to awaken freedom and drive you to a personal encounter with the living Christ so that you might place your trust in God through him. In him, you enter into a personal relationship with God, as well as a communal experience of God within the Church (the Body of Christ).
I hope I have shed some light on what Christians mean and I pray I have presented the choice more clearly to you.
Finally, some side notes regarding the evolution controversy that has crept in here:
Saint Augustine wrote about 1,500 years before Darwin and 200+ years before Mohammed that Genesis should not be taken as a literal history based on the internal evidence in the Bible. Augustine said "The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."
Genesis chapter one is a poem written with chiactic structure, rythm and meter, and repeating the refrain "God saw...and God said it was good" It is a hymn to the original goodness of creation and the goodness of God. There's more to it than that which you can find in good commentaries (or learn the Hebrew).
The fact that Genesis should not be taken literally is clear since the sun was not made to day 4 (so how was a day measured if meant to be taken literally?). The author never intended the poem as a history lesson. The Bible uses similar language to the Qur'an regarding a day in God's time (a day is like a thousand years).
I don't believe in evolution either, BUT I don't take Genesis literally. Evolution is a racist theory with little scientific evidence (where are the transitional forms in the fossil records that Darwin promised we would find). However, I am an "old earther" who believes that humanity has been around for quite awhile. I do believe that history and ideas develop, grow and mature in cultures, which is a sort of evolutionary thinking.
To be honest, I don't care what process God used to put humanity here -- and if God would have wanted me to know, he would have made it much clearer than either the Bible or the Qur'an are on this subject. Science uses its methods of geology, archeology, and so forth best to find oil and such. Maybe, as science progresses, we'll have a better theory than evolution. Meanwhile, the Bible is used best to find the meaning of life and my eternal destiny!
Peace and Blessings all!
Jcecil3
vancouver
19-03-2002, 22:45
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-03-02 AT 09:46 PM (GMT)]Hell is just the grave. The word sheol in hebrew and hades in Greek mean the common grave of mankind. There is no feeling in death. It is a state of non-existence. We are born into sin because of Adam. If we were not we would live forever as Adam would have. Jesus gave his perfect human life up to buy back what Adam had lost us. We become the offspring of Jesus instead of Adam. The only way to salvation has to be through the Messiah who was Jesus Christ. He was perfect because he did not have human parents and therefore did not inherit the imperfection from Adam. But legally he was still born in the line from Adam. Mary was a surrogate mother to Jesus as he was transferred from being an angel in heaven to being an embryo in the womb of Mary.
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