Was Christ crucified ?

[JaLaaL]

PLEASE READ THIS !
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THE DEBATE took place in August, 1981, in Durban, South Africa.

THE PARTICIPANTS were Josh McDowell and Ahmed Deedat, the president of the Islamic Propagation Centre in Durban, South Africa.


The debate, a transcript of which appears on the following pages, was divided into three parts:

-Opening arguments, 50 minutes.

-Rebuttals by each, 10 minutes.

-Closing statements, 3 minutes.


TRANSCRIPT OF THE DEBATE

* OPENING ARGUMENTS

# Ahmed Deedat

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. On the subject of crucifixion,
the Muslim is told in no uncertain terms, in the Holy Qur'an, the
last and final revelation of God, that they didn't kill Him, nor did
they crucify Him. But it was made to appear to them so. And those who
dispute therein, are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge;
they only follow conjecture, guesswork. For of a surety, they killed
Him not.

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. Could anyone have been more
explicit, more dogmatic, more uncompromising, in stating a belief
than this? The only one who was entitled to say such words is the
all-knowing, omniscient Lord of the universe.

The Muslim believes this authoritative statement as the veritable
Word of God. And as such, he asks no questions, and he demands no
proof. He says, "There are the words of my Lord; I believe, and I
affirm." But the Christian responds in the words of our honorable
guest. In his book, Josh McDowell with Don Stewart in "Answers to
tough Questions" on pages 116 and 117, states the Christian's atti-
tude toward this uncompromising statement of the Muslim. He says,
"A major problem with accepting Mohammed's account is that his testi-
mony is 600 years after the event occurred, while the New Testament
contains eyewitness, or first hand, testimony of the life and mini-
stry of Jesus Christ."

In a nutshell, the Christian asks how can a man a thousand miles
away from the scene of the happening of the crucifixion and 600 years
in time away from the happening know what happened in Jerusalem? The
Muslim responds that these are the words of God Almighty. And there-
fore, as such, God knew what had happened. The Christian naturally
reasons that, had he accepted this book, the Qur'an, as the Word of
God, there would have been no dispute between us. We would all have
been Muslims!

We have eyewitness and earwitness accounts of these happenings
which are stated for us in the Holy Bible, more especially in the
gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Now, the implication of this
crucifixion is this: it is alleged that Jesus Christ was murdered by
the Jews by means of crucifixion 2,000 years ago, And as such, the
Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus Christ. We Muslims are told
that they are innocent because Christ was not killed, nor was He
crucified, And as such, I am given the [mandate] by the Holy Qur'an
to defend the Jews against the Christian charge. I'm going to defend
the Jews this afternoon, not because they are my cousins, but simply
because justice must he done.
We have our points of difference with the Jews - that is a different
question altogether. This afternoon, I will try my very best to do
justice to my cousins, the Jews.

Now, in this argument, this debate, this dialogue, I am actually
the defense counsel for the Jews, and Josh McDowell is the prosecu-
ting counsel. And you, ladies and gentlemen, are the ladies and gent-
lemen of the jury. I want you to sit back, relax and at the end of
this, give judgment to yourself, to your own conscience whether the
Jews are guilty or not of the charge as alleged by the Christians.

Now, to get to the point, as the defense counsel for the Jews,
I could have had this case against the Jews dismissed in just two
minutes - in any court of law, in any civilized country in the world,
simply by demanding from the prosecuting counsel the testimonies of
these witnesses, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, And when they are pre-
sented, in the form of sworn affidavits, as we have them in the
gospels, I could say that, in their original, they are not attested.
And the proof - you get any authorized King James Version of the
Bible, and you'll find each and every affidavit begins: "The Gospel
according to St. Matthew, the Gospel according to St. Mark, the Gospel
according to St. Luke, the Gospel according to St. John." I'm asking,
ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what is this "according ... accor-
ding ... according"? Do you know what it means? It means Matthew,
Mark, Luke and John didn't sign their names. It is only assumed that
these are their work. And as such, in any court of law, in any civi-
lized country, they would be thrown out of court in just two minutes.

Not only that, I can have this case dismissed TWICE in two minutes
in any court of law in any civilized country. I said twice because
one of the testators in the Gospel of St. Mark, chapter 14, verse 50,
tells us that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, all
His disciples forsook Him, and fled. ALL. If they were not there, the
testimony of those who were not there to witness what happened will
be thrown out of court. I said, twice in two minutes, in just 120
seconds flat, the case would be over. In any court of law. in any
civilized country in the world.

But where is the fun of it? You have come a long way from far and
wide, after all the threatening rains. And now, if we say the case is
closed and go home, where is the fun of it? To entertain you, I will
accept those documents as valid, for the sake of this dialogue, and
we are now going to put these witnesses into the box for cross-
examination. And I want you to see where the truth lies.

The first witness that I'm going to call, happens to be St. Luke.
And St. Luke has been described by Christian authorities as one of
the greatest historians. As a historical book, the Gospel of St. Luke
is unique. Now, we get St. Luke. chapter 24. verse 36. I'm going to
tell you what he has said - what he has written in black and white.
He tells us that it was Sunday evening, the first day of the week,
when Jesus Christ walked into that upper room, the one in which He
had the Last Supper with His disciples. This is three days after His
alleged crucifixion. He goes in, and He wishes His disciples, "Peace
be unto you." And when He said, "Peace be unto you," His disciples
were terrified. Is that true? We're asking you. I would like to ask
Him, why were the disciples terrified? Because when one meets his
long-lost master, his grandfather, his guru, his Rabbi - we Eastern
people embrace one another; we kiss one another. Why should His
disciples be terrified? So Luke tells us they were frightened, be-
cause they thought He was a spirit.

I'm only quoting what he said. And you can verify in your own
Bible at home. They were frightened, they were terrified because they
thought He was a spirit. I'm asking Luke, did He look like a spirit?
And he says no. I'm asking all the Christians of the world again and
again, of every church and denomination, this master of yours, did He
look like a spirit? And they all say no. Then I say, why should they
think that man is a spirit when He didn't look like one?

And everyone is puzzled - unless Josh can explain. Every Christian
is puzzled. Why should they think the man is a spirit when He didn't
look like one? I will tell you. The reason is because the disciples
of Jesus had heard from hearsay that the Master was hanged on the
cross. They had heard, from hearsay, that He had given up the ghost.
In other words. His spirit had come out: He had died. They had heard
from hearsay that He was dead and buried for three days. All their
knowledge was from hearsay, because as I said at the beginning (Mark,
chapter 14, verse 50), your other witness says that at the most criti-
cal juncture in the life of Jesus all His disciples forsook Him and
fled. All! They were not there.

So, all the knowledge being from hearsay, you come across a per-
son who you heard was dead for three days. You assume that He's
stinking in His grave. When you see such a person. naturally, you're
terrified. So Jesus wants to assure them that He's not what they're
thinking. They are thinking that He has come back from the dead. A
resurrected, spiritualized body, so He says - I am only quoting what
Luke says - He says, "Behold My hands and My feet." Have a look at
My hands and My feet, that it is I, Myself. I am the same fellow,
man, what's wrong with you? Why are you afraid? He says, "Handle Me
and see. Handle Me and see. For a spirit has no flesh and bones, as
you see me have."

A spirit: indefinite article "a." A spirit, any spirit, has no
flesh and bones, as you see me have. So, if I have flesh and bones,
I'm not a spirit: I'm not a ghost: I'm not a spook. I am asking the
English man - the one who speaks English as his mother tongue - since
I have flesh and bones. I'm not a spirit: I'm not a ghost: I'm not a
spook. I say. is that what it means in your language?

I say, you Afrikaner, when a man tells you that, does it mean that
he's not what you are thinking? That is, he is not a spirit, he is
not a ghost, he is not a spook. And everybody responds "yes." If a
man tells you a spirit has no flesh and bones, it means it has no
flesh and bones. As you see, I have these things, so I'm not what
you're thinking. You are thinking that I was dead, and I have come
back from the dead and am resurrected. If a spirit has no flesh and
bones, in other words, he's telling you that the body you are seeing
is not a metamorphosed body. It is not a translated body; it is not
a resurrected body. Because a resurrected body gets spiritualized.

Who says so? My authority is Jesus. You say, "Where?" I say Luke,
you look again - chapter 20 in verse 36. What does he say? You see,
the Jews were always coming to Him with riddles; they were always
asking Him, "Master, shall we pay tribute to Caesar or not? Master,
this woman, we found her in the act. What shall we do to her? Master
..." Again and again. Now, they come to Him and they ask Him, it
says. "Master," Rabbi in the Hebrew language, "Master, we had a woman
among us, and this woman according to a Jewish custom, had seven hus-
bands." You see, according to a Jewish custom, if a brother of a man
dies and leaves no offspring. then the man takes his brother's wife
to be his own wife. And when he fails the third brother does likewise,
and the fourth and the fifth and the sixth, and the seventh.

Seven brothers had this woman as a wife. but there was no problem
while on this earth because it was all one by one. Now, they want to
know from Him that at the resurrection, in the hereafter, which one
is going to have her, because they all had her here. In other words,
there will be a war in heaven, because we believe that we will all be
resurrected simultaneously. All together. at one time. And these
seven brothers wake up at the same time. and they see this woman and
every one would say, "My wife! My wife!" and there would be a war in
heaven between the brothers for this one woman.

So they want to know from Him which one is going to have her on the
other side. Luke. chapter 20, verse 36. Check it out. In answer to
that. Jesus said about these resurrected men and women, "Neither
shall they die anymore." In other words, "Once they are resurrected,
they will be immortalized." This is a mortal body. It needs food,
shelter, clothing, sex, rest. Without these things mankind perishes.
That body will be an immortalized body. An immortal body, no food,
no shelter, no clothing, no sex, no rest. He says neither shall they
die anymore. For they are equal unto the angels.

In other words, they will be angel-ized. They will be spiritualized;
they will be spiritual creatures; they will be spirits! For they are
equal unto angels and the children of God. Such are the children of
the resurrection - spirit! He said "A spirit has no flesh and bones,
as you see Me have." In other words, "I'm not resurrected." And they
believed not for joy and wonders - Luke 24 again. What happened then?

We thought the man was already dead, perhaps stinking in His grave.
And they believed not for joy - overjoy - and they wonder what hap-
pened? So He says, "Have you any broiled fish and a honeycomb here,
meat - something to eat?" And they gave Him a piece of bread and He
took it and ate it in their very sight. To prove what? I'm asking
ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what was He trying to demonstrate?
What? "I am the same fellow, man; I am not what you are thinking, I
have not come back from the dead."

This was Sunday evening after the alleged crucifixion.

Let's go back. What happened in the morning? Your other witness,
John, chapter 20, verse 1, tells us that it was Sunday morning, the
first day of the week, when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus.
I'm asking John, why did she go there? Or, let's put another of your
witnesses on the stand, Mark, chapter 16, verse 1. Mark, tell us -
why did Mary go there? And Mark tells us, "She went to anoint Him."
Now, the Hebrew word for anoint is 'massahah' from which we get the
word messiah in Hebrew and masih in Arabic. The root word for both
Arabic and Hebrew is the same. Massahah means to rub, to massage, to
anoint.

I'm asking, do Jews massage dead bodies after three days? And the
answer is no. I say to you Christians, do you massage dead bodies af-
ter three days? Do you? The answer is no. We Muslims are the closest
to the Jew in our ceremony of law. Do Muslims massage dead bodies af-
ter three days? The answer is no. Then why would they want to go and
massage a dead, rotten body after three days? Within three hours,
you know that rigor mortis sets in, the hardening of the cells, the
rotting of the body, fermentation from within. In three days' time
the body is rotten from inside. Such a rotting body when you massage
it falls to pieces.

Why would she want to go and massage a dead, rotten body unless
she was looking for a live person? You see, according to your
witnesses, from only reading, she must have seen signs of life in the
limp body as it was being taken down from the cross. She was about
the only woman who, with Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, had given
the final rites to the body of Jesus. All his other disciples had
forsaken Him and fled. They were not there. So if this woman had seen
signs of life, she was not going to shout, "There, He's alive! He's
alive!" - to invite a sure death.

Three days later, she goes in, and she wants to anoint Him. And
when she reaches the sepulchre, she finds that the stone is removed.
The winding sheets are inside. So, she starts to cry. I'm asking, why
was the stone removed and why were the winding sheets unwound? Be-
cause for a resurrected body you won't have to remove the stone to
come out. For the resurrected body, you don't have to unwind the win-
ding sheets to move, This is the need of this physical body. This
mortal body. Because a poet tells us, "The stone walls do not a pri-
son make nor iron bars a cage," For the soul, for the spirit, these
things do not matter. Iron bars or walls. It's the need of His phy-
sical body. Jesus Christ, according to the Scriptures, was watching
her from wherever He was, not from heaven, but from this earth.

Because this tomb, if you remember, was privately owned property
belonging to Joseph of Arimathea. This very rich, influential dis-
ciple had carved out of a rock a big, roomy chamber. Around that
chamber was his vegetable garden. Now, don't tell me that this Jew
was so generous that he was planting vegetables five miles out of
town for other people's sheep and goats to graze upon.

Surely he must have bought his laborers quarters. Or for people who
looked after his garden, or perhaps his country home where he went
with his family for holidays, on the weekends.

Jesus is there and He watches this woman. He knows who she is and He
knows why she's there. And He goes up to her. He finds her crying. So
He says, "Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou?" I'm asking,
doesn't He know? Doesn't He know? Why does He ask such a silly
question? I'm telling you, this is not a silly question. He's actu-
ally pulling her leg, metaphorically. She, supposing Him to be the
gardener - I'm only reading you evidence as it is given. She supposed
Him to be the gardener - I am asking, why does she suppose He's a gar-
dener? Do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? Do they? I say, why
does she suppose He's a gardener? I'm telling you, because He's dis-
guised as a gardener. Why is He disguised as a gardener? I say, be-
cause He's afraid of the Jews. Why is He afraid of the Jews? I say,
because He didn't die. And He didn't conquer death. If He had died,
and if He had conquered death, there's no need to be afraid anymore.
Why not? Because the resurrected body can't die twice. Who says so? I
say the Bible. What does it say? It says it is ordained unto all men,
once to die, and after that, the judgment. You can't die twice.

So, if He had conquered death, there would be no need to be afraid.
He's afraid, because He didn't die, So she, supposing Him to be the
gardener, says, "Sir, if you have taken Him hence, tell me where have
you laid Him to rest?" To relax, to recuperate, not where have you
buried Him. "So that I might take him away." I alone .- one woman a
frail Jewess. Imagine her carrying away a corpse of 160 pounds, at
least, not 200 like me. A muscular carpenter supposed to be a young
man in the prime of His life, at least 160 pounds. And another 100
pounds' worth of medicines around Him, John, chapter 19, verse 9.
That makes Him 260.

Can you imagine this frail Jewess carrying this bundle of a corpse
over 260 pounds, like a bundle of straw, like a super-woman in the
American comics? And take Him where? Take Him home? Put Him under a
bed - what does she want to do with Him? Does she want to pickle
Him? What does she want to do with a rotting body. I ask you?

So Jesus - the joke has gone too far - says, "Mary..." The way He
said "Mary," she recognized that this was Jesus. So, she wants to
grab Him. I'm asking why. To bite Him? No! To pay respect. We Eastern
people do that. She wants to grab Him. So Jesus says, "Touch Me not,"
I say, why not? Is He a bundle of electricity, a dynamo, that if she
touches Him she will get electrocuted? Tell me, why not? I say be-
cause it hurts, You give me another reason why not, "Touch Me not for
I am not yet ascended unto My Father." Is she blind? Can't she see
the man is standing there beside her? What does He mean by "I'm not
gone up" when He is here? He said, "I am not yet ascended unto My
Father." In the language of the Jew, in the idiom of the Jew. He's
saying, "I am not dead yet."

The problem arises: who moved the stone? How could she get to Him;
who moved the stone? And the Christians are writing books upon books.
One is Frank Morrison, a rationalist lawyer, He writes a book of 192
pages and he gives six hypotheses, At the end of the 192 pages, when
you are finished, you still haven't got the answer. Who moved the
stone? And they're writing books upon books: who moved the stone? I
can't understand why you can't see the very obvious. Why don't you
read your books: These gospels, you have it in black and white in
your own mother tongue. This is an anomaly that you read this book
in your own mother tongue.

The Englishman in English, the Afrikaner in Afrikaans the Zulu in
Zulu. Every language group has got the book in their own language.
And each and every one is made to understand the exact opposite of
what he is reading. Exact opposite. Not just merely misunderstanding.

I want you to prove me wrong. I'm telling you ... I'm only quoting
word for word exactly as your witnesses have said it. Preserved it
for us in black and white. I'm not attributing motives to them. I'm
not saying that they are dishonest witnesses. I'm telling you. Please
read this book of yours once more. Remove the blinders, and read it
again. And tell me where I'm not understanding your language. You
Englishmen, or you Afrikaners, you Zulu. You come back to me and if
you feel that at the end of the talk. our honored visitor has not
done justice to the subject, you call me - to your Kingdom Halls or
to your school hall or anywhere you want to discuss it further with
me. I am prepared to come.

Who moved the stone? I'm asking. It's very simple - they're talking
about 20 men required. It is so huge, it needed a superman from Ame-
rica to move it. One and a half to two tons. I'm telling you, please
read Mark and Matthew and he tells you that Joseph of Arimathea alone,
put the stone into place. One man - alone. One man! If one man can put
it into place, why can't two persons remove it, I ask you?

Now, all those happenings - you know that this was prophesied. It
was ordained. And all the stories about what happened afterward -
I'm telling you that Jesus Christ had given you a clear cut indication
of what was going to happen. And that's also preserved in black and
white in your testimony in the Gospel of St. Matthew, another of your
witnesses, chapter 12. verses 38. 39 and 40. The Jews come again to
Jesus. with a new request.

Now they say. "Master, we would have a sign of Thee." We want You
to show a miracle to convince us that You are the Messiah we are
waiting for. You know, something supernatural like walking on the
water, or flying in the air like a bird. Do something, man, then we
will be convinced that You are a man of God, the Messiah we are wait-
ing for.

So Jesus answers them. He says, "An evil and adulterous generation
seeketh after a sign. But there shall be no sign given unto it, except
the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three
nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of Man be three
days and three nights in the belly of the earth." The only sign He
was prepared to give them was the sign of Jonah. He has put all his
eggs in one basket. He didn't say, "You know blind Bartimaeus, I
healed him. You know that woman with issues who had been bleeding for
years. She touched Me and she was healed. You know, I fed five thou-
sand people with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread. You
see that fig tree. I dried it up from its very roots." Nothing of the
kind. "This is the only sign I will give you, the sign of Jonah." I'm
asking, what was that sign?

Well, go to the book of Jonah. I brought the book of Jonah for you -
one page by God - it is only one page in the whole Bible. This is the
book of Jonah. Four short chapters. It won't take you two minutes to
read it. It's hard to find the book because, in a thousand pages, to
find one page is difficult. But, you don't have to go there. If you
went to Sunday school. you will remember what I'm telling you. I'm
telling you that Jonah was sent to the Ninevites. You know, God
Almighty told him, "Go to Nineveh," a city of 100,000 people. He was
to warn them that they must repent in sack-cloth and ashes; they must
humble themselves before the Lord. Jonah was despondent because these
materialistic people -worldly people - "They will not listen to me.
They will make a mockery of what I have to tell them." So instead of
going to Nineveh, he goes to Joppa. That's what this one-page book
tells you. He went to Joppa and was taken aboard a ship - he was going
to Tarshish. You don't have to remember the names.

On the way, there's a storm. And according to the superstitions of
these people, anyone who runs away from his master's command, who
fails to do his duty, creates a turmoil at sea. So, they begin to
question in the boat, who could be responsible for this storm. Jonah
realizes that as a prophet of God, he is a soldier of God. And as a
soldier of God, he has no right to do things presumptuously on his
own. So he says, "Look, I am the guilty party. God Almighty is after
my blood. He wants to kill me, so in the process He's sinking the
boat, and you innocent people will die. It will be better for you if
you take me and you throw me overboard. Because God is really after
my blood."

They say, "No, man, you know, you are such a good man. Perhaps you
want to commit suicide. We won't help you to do that. We have a sys-
tem of our own of discovering right from wrong," and that is what
they call casting lots. Like heads or tails. So, according to the sys-
tem of casting lots, Jonah was found to be the guilty man. And so they
took him, and they threw him overboard.

Now I'm going to ask you a question. When they threw him overboard.
was he dead or was he alive? Now, before you answer. I want you to
bear in mind that Jonah had volunteered. He said, "Throw me." And
when a man volunteers, you don't have to strangle him before throwing,
you don't have to spear him before throwing, you don't have to break
his arm or limb before throwing. You agree with me?

The man had volunteered. So when they threw him overboard, what
does your common sense say? Was he dead or was he alive? Please, I
want your help. Was he dead or was he alive? Alive. You get no prize
for that - it was too simple a question. And - astonishingly the Jews
say that he was alive, the Christians say he was alive and the Mus-
lims say he was alive. How much nicer it would be if we would agree
on every other thing.

We all agree that he was alive when he was thrown into that raging
sea. And the storm subsided. Perhaps it was a coincidence. A fish
comes and gobbles him. Dead or alive? Was he dead or was he alive?
Alive? Thank you very much.

From the fish's belly, according to the book of Jonah, he cries to
God for help. Do dead men pray? Do they pray? Dead people, do they
pray? No! So he was alive. Three days and three nights the fish takes
him around the ocean. Dead or alive? Alive. On the third day, walking
on the seashore, I'm asking - dead or alive? Alive. What does Jesus
say? He said, "For as Jonah was." Just like Jonah. "For as Jonah was,
so shall the Son of Man be," referring to Himself. How was Jonah -
dead or alive? Alive. How was Jesus for three days and three nights
in the tomb according to the Christian belief? How was He? Dead or
alive? Dead.

He was dead according to our belief. In other words, He's unlike
Jonah. Can't you see? He says, I shall be like Jonah and you are tell-
ing me - there's one thousand two hundred million Christians of the
world - that He was unlike Jonah. He said, I will be like Jonah, you
say He was unlike Jonah. If I was a Jew, I would not accept Him as my
Messiah. I am told in the Qur'an that Jesus was the Messiah. I accept.
He was one of the mightiest messengers of God - I accept. I believe
in His miraculous birth. I believe that He gave life to the dead by
God's permission. And He healed those born blind and the leper by
God's permission. But if I was a Jew, according to the sign that He
has given, He failed. Jonah is alive - Jesus is dead. They are not
alike. I don't know in what language you can make them alike - that
they are like one another. So the clever man. you know, the doctor of
theology, the professor of religion, he tells me that I don't under-
stand the Bible.

Your Bible, I don't understand. Why don't I understand the Bible? He
says, "You see Mr. Deedat, Jesus Christ is emphasizing the time fac-
tor." Note, He uses the word "three" four times. For Jonah was three
days and three nights. so shall the Son of Man be three days and three
nights. He uses the word "three" four times.

In other words, He's emphasizing the time factor - not whether He
was dead or alive. I'm tellinq you that there is nothing miraculous
in a time factor, Whether the man was dead for three minutes or three
hours or three weeks, that's not a miracle.

The miracle, if there is one at all, is that you expect a man to be
dead and he's not dead. When Jonah was thrown into the sea, we expect
him to die. He didn't die, so it's a miracle. A fish comes and gobbles
him - he ought to die. He didn't die, so it's a miracle. Three days
and three nights of suffocation and heat in the whale's belly, He
ought to die: he didn't die. It's a miracle, it's a miracle because
you expect a man to die and he didn't die.

When you expect a man to die, and if he dies, what's so miraculous
about that? I ask you, what's miraculous about that? If a gunman took
a gun and fired six shots into the heart of a man and he dies, is that
a miracle? No. But if he laughs it off. if he is still alive and walk-
ing with us and if, after the six shots tear his heart to pieces, he
laughs: ha ha ha ha --- he's alive. So we say it's a miracle. Can't
you see? The miracle is when we expect a man to die and he doesn't
die. When the man who is expected to die, dies, it's no miracle.

We expect Jesus also to die. For what He had been through, if He
died, there is no miracle. There's no sign. If He didn't die, it's a
miracle - can't you see? So He says, "No, no. It is the time factor."
Drowning men clutch at straws - drowning women do the same. He says,
"No. it's the time factor." I say, did He fulfill that? He says, "Of
course, He fulfilled that." I say, how did He fulfill it? Look, it's
very easy to make statements. HOW did He fulfill it? I say, watch.
When was He crucified, I ask you? The whole Christian world says on
Good Friday. Britain, France, Germany. America,
Lesotho. Zambia - in South Africa we have a public holiday - every
Christian nation commemorates Good Friday. I am asking, what makes
Good Friday good?

So the Christian says, "Christ died for our sins, That makes it
good." So He was crucified on the Good Friday. He says, yes. Yes. I
say, when was He crucified - morning or afternoon? So the Christian
says in the afternoon. How long was He on the cross? Some say three
hours, some say six hours. I say, I am not going to argue with you.
Whatever you say, I accept. You know, when we read the Scriptures,
they tell us that when they wanted to crucify Jesus, they were in a
hurry. And they were in such a hurry that Josh tells us in his book,
The Resurrection Factor, that within some 12 hours, there were six
separate trials. Six trials He went through.

These things only happen in films. These sort of things - six trials
in 12 hours from midnight to the next morning and on, only take place
on films. But I believe whatever you tell me. Whatever you tell me, I
accept. So the Jews were in a hurry to put Him up on the cross. Do you
know why? Because of the general public. Jesus was a Jew. The general
public loved Him. The man had healed the blind and the lepers and the
sick and had raised the dead. He had fed so many thousands of people
with bread and fish. He was a hero, and if they discovered - the ge-
neral public - that their hero's life was in danger, there would have
been a riot.

So, they had a midnight trial. Early in the morning they took Him to
Pilate. Pilate says, "He is not my kettle of fish - take Him to Herod."
Herod says, "I'm not interested - take Him back to Pilate. And hurry,
hurry, hurry." And they held six trials within 12 hours. Six. As if
they had nothing else to do, but I believe what you tell me.

They succeeded in putting Him up on the cross, according to your
witnesses. According to your witnesses. But as much as they were in a
hurry to put Him up, they were in a hurry to bring Him down. You know
why? Because at sunset on Friday, at six o'clock, the Sabbath starts.
You see, the Jews count the days, night and day, night and day. We
Muslims count our days, night and day, night and day. Not day and night.
We count night and day. Six o'clock, our day begins in the evening.

So, before sunset, the body must come down because they were told in
the book of Deuteronomy that they must see to it that nobody is hanging
on the tree on the Sabbath day. "That thy land be not defiled which the
Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." So quickly, quickly, they
brought the body down and they gave Him a burial bath, and they put a
hundred pounds of medicine around Him. And they put Him into the
sepulchre. Not a grave - a sepulchre. A big, roomy chamber above ground.
So it's already evening. From three o'clock in the afternoon, for
whatever you do, the details are given in Josh's book. Burial baths
normally take more than an hour. You read the details about how the Jew
give a burial bath to the dead. That takes more than an hour itself. But
let's say they succeeded in doing all these things in a hurry, hurry. You
know they were in a hurry. Six trials in 12 hours. Now they put Him into
the sepulchre.

By the time they put Him in, it's already evening. So watch - watch
my fingers. Friday night He's supposed to be in the grave. Watch my
finger. Saturday day, He still is supposed to be in the grave. Am I
right? Saturday night, He still is supposed to be in the grave. But
Sunday morning, the first day of the week, when Mary Magdalene goes to
the tomb, the tomb was empty.

That's what your witnesses say. I am asking - how many days and how
many nights? You remember, I said, supposed, supposed, supposed...
You know why? Because the Bible doesn't say actually when He came out.
He could have come out Friday night. The Bible doesn't say how He came.
So, Friday night, Saturday day, Saturday night. I'm asking, how many
days and how many nights? Please, if you can see, if your eyes are not
defective, tell me how many? How many do you see? Right! Two nights and
a day. Look at this. Is it the same as He said, for as Jonah was three
days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three
nights? Three and three. Look at this: two and one. Please tell me now
it means the same thing.

I want to know what you are reading. I want to know what you are
reading in your own book! The man is telling you that what is going to
happen will be like Jonah. And the sign of Jonah is a miracle. And the
only miracle you can attribute to this man, Jonah, is that we expected
him to die and he didn't die. Jesus - we expect Him also to die. If He
died, it is not a sign. If He didn't die, it is a sign.

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Can you see, the
people have been programmed. We all get programmed from childhood. When
I went to America, and spoke at the University in San Francisco, I
said you people are brainwashed. I told them, "You are brainwashed." Of
course, I could afford to talk to them - the American will take it. He
is the almighty. You know, great guy. He can take it. So I said, "You
people are brainwashed." So one American, a professor, interjected,
"No, not brainwashed - programmed." I said, "I beg your pardon - pro-
grammed." So, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, I hope, by the time
this meeting is over, you will be re-programmed into reading the book
as it is, and not as you are made to understand.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

[JBJ]

PLEASE READ THIS ! I met first met with Josh McDowell a year ago. He was an atheist and an adamant opposer to Christianity. Early in his life he set out to disprove Christianity and write a bestseller to keep anyone from believing the Christian cripe. Instead, when he researched Biblical textual accuracy, the ressurection, and plain logic (ya!) he faced his conscience and became a Christian himself! His story going from an extreme Christian opponent to an extreme Christian supporter has always impressed me. This is the kind of conversion that means something, not an average guy like Will Smith. It makes me wish I was a stronger opposer in my non-Christian days too.

This just happened to be one of the first things I ever read on the Muslim-Christian debate. This transcript was given to me by my loving grandfather. It almost gets me teary eyed thinking of the memories. :'(
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# Josh McDowell

Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. Mr. Deedat, and the wonderful people of this city, and this country of South Africa, I am thankful for the opportunity to be a part of this symposium on Islam and Christianity's view of the crucifixion and the resurrection.

In preparation for this, I didn't realize that I would be dealing with so many different theories on the crucifixion from the Islamic viewpoint. I found out, first of all, that the majority of the Muslims throughout the world hold to the substitutionary theory. That in Surah number 4, in the Qur'an, a substitute, another person, was placed in Christ's position on the cross that Jesus was removed and taken to heaven.

In other words, it was someone else. But then, I found such a diverse opinion among Muslims. Some Muslim writers say that it was a disciple of Jesus who was placed on the cross in His stead. Another Muslim writer, Tabari, quoting Ibn Ishaq, said it was a man by the name of Sargus, or Sergius, who was placed on the cross. Another Muslim writer by the name of Baidawi, said it was a Jew named Titanus who was placed on the cross. Another, Ath-Tha-'labi, says it was a Jew named Fal Tayanus, who was placed on the cross. And still another Muslim writer. Wahb ibn Munabbah, said it was a Rabbi of the Jews, Ashyu, who was placed on the cross.

Then, others feeling that it might be a little unfair to put an innocent man there, say, well, it must be Judas Iscariot who was placed on the cross. Now, Mr. Deedat might be able to correct me, but I do not believe there is any evidence whatsoever in the Qur'an for that. There are in some of the sects. earlier than Islam, references to that. But I always wondered, why did God have to have a substitute? Why couldn't He have simply taken Jesus then?

Others will say - and this is not what the majority of Muslims believe - that Jesus died a natural death some years after the crucifixion and the alleged resurrection. In other words, "Hazrat Isa," Jesus is dead! This is a more recent development in Islam. And I'm always wary of recent developments.

It was started mainly by a man by the name of Venturini, who said Jesus really didn't die on the cross - He just swooned or passed out, then was put into a tomb and resuscitated. This is also the theme of the Ahmadiyas, a radical sect of Islam. One of their main doctrines, established by their founder and allegedly their prophet, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, it is a part of the doctrine of Qadianism.

Some will say to be crucified means to die. Therefore, Jesus wasn't crucified because He did not die on the cross. I'm not quite sure how they got that definition. What I need to do is this: present the facts to you, as I have been able to document them in my books, and then let you, as fair minded, intelligent people, make up your minds. The background for the points I'm going to make is that when I was in the University, I wanted to write a book against Christianity. I wanted to refute it intellectually. The last thing I wanted to do was become a Christian. But after two years of research and spending a lot of money and time, I discovered facts - not only facts that God has stated in His Holy Word, the Bible, but facts that are documented in sources in history. Men and women, these are some of the facts that I found as I tried to refute Christianity and I couldn't.

The first fact I found is that Jesus was not afraid to die. In fact, He predicted His own death and resurrection. He said, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem." He said to His disciples, "The Son of Man is going to be delivered up to the death. And they will deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to whip and to crucify Him. And on the third day He will be raised up" (paraphrased from Matthew 17:22-23).

In another place He began to teach them that He had discovered many things. And then He said He'd be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, He would be killed, and He added that after three days, He was to rise again (Matthew 20:18, 19).

In Matthew 17, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and He will be raised again on the third day."

The second thing I learned as I studied the life of Jesus Christ is that Jesus was willing to die. In Matthew 26, He said, "My Father, if it is possible, let this Cup pass from Me." But what a lot of people leave out is the context of what Jesus said. He said, "Yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt, Father" (Matthew 26:39).

Now Jesus did not hide Himself. He is very clear about where He is. It says in John 18 that He went to the place where they usually found Him. He didn't want to hide from the authorities. He knew what was going to happen. In John 18, verse 4, it says, "Jesus therefore. knowing all the things that were going to come upon Him." He knew it! And He was ready for it. In Matthew Jesus says, "Don't you understand, I could call on twelve legions of angels to protect Me?" But He said, "I want Your will. Father." and God answered His prayer and let Him fulfill "the will of the Father." Jesus said in John 10: "The Father loves Me because I lay down My life that I may take it up again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative." You have to remember - Jesus being the God-Man, came as God the Son, the eternal Word, to take the sins of the world upon Himself. The Holy Bible (I Corinthians 5:21) says that He, God, made Jesus sin for us, and, if you can, imagine the agony that the eternal Word, the Son, was going through at that time.

The third fact that I learned is that the Jews were not guilty of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I was very surprised. Mr. Deedat, that you needed to be the defender of the Jews. There are Muslims and Christians that have gotten that distorted all through history. Jesus said in Matthew 20. verses 18 and 19, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and they will condemn Me to death. and will deliver Me over to the Gentiles, to mock and whip and crucify Me." Jesus said, "I lay down My life." If anyone was guilty, Jesus was. He said, "I have the power to lay it down, I have the power to take it up."

Also, Mr. Deedat, I feel that both you and I are responsible, because the Bible says,"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). It was our sins that drove Jesus Christ to the cross.

The fourth fact that I learned is that the Christians are called to an intelligent. intellectual faith - not a blind faith. I was quite surprised when I read in the little booklet, What Was the Sign of Jonah? by Mr. Ahmed Deedat, that over one thousand million Christians today blindly accept that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ. I'm a little confused, because really, Mr. Deedat, you read from the Qur'an and you said you accept it, you don't need facts, you don't need any evidence. You simply accept it and then you're saying that Christians, because they accept what God, Yahweh, has revealed through the Holy Bible, that Jesus is the Christ, that because we accept that, we do it blindly. I'm amazed, because in the Muslim book, the Qur'an, it states that one of the titles given to Jesus is "al-Masih." I believe it is referred to 11 times that way. The Muslim translator of the Qur'an into English, Yusuf Ali, translates the Arabic here as "Christ" in the English translation. So, why are we accused of being blind in accepting Jesus as the Christ?

In my country, one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived - the man who made the university of Harvard famous - was Dr. Simon Greenleaf. He became a Christian through trying to refute Jesus Christ as the Eternal Word and the resurrection. Finally, after trying to do it, he came to the conclusion that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the best established events of history, according to the laws of legal evidence administered in the courts of justice.

C.S. Lewis, the literary genius of our age, was the professor of medieval and renaissance literature at Oxford. He was a giant in his field. No one could question his intellectual capabilities. He became a believer in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord when he tried to refute the reliability of the New Testament and he couldn't. And he said, "I was one of the most reluctant converts, but I was brought to Jesus Christ because of my mind."

Lord Caldecote, the Lord Chief Justice of England, a man that held the highest offices that anyone could hold in the legal systems of England, said, " ... as often as I have tried to examine the evidence for Christianity, I have come to believe it as a fact beyond dispute."

Thomas Arnold was the headmaster of a major varsity and university for 14 years. He is an historian and the author of the famous three-volume series, the History of Rome. He said, "I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence than the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Dr. Werner von Braun, the German scientist - the man who immigrated to my country - was one of the creators of the American Space Program. He said he never really became a scientist until he came to know Jesus Christ personally as Savior and God.

The fifth fact that I discovered was the historical accuracy of the Christian Bible. The Christian New Testament is exceptional in its reliability and trustworthiness and survival down through history. It is unrivaled in manuscript authority. A manuscript is a hand-written copy over against a printed copy. Men and women, of the Christian New Testament alone, there are more than 24,000 manuscripts. Not versions of the Bible, Mr. Deedat, manuscript copies. Men and women, the number two book in all of history in manuscript authority and literature, is Homer's Iliad, with 643. The number two book in the whole of history in manuscript authority.

Then, Sir Frederick Kenyon was a man who was second to no one in the ability and the training to make authoritative statements about manuscripts of literature in history. The former curator and director of the British Museum, he said, "The last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us as they were written now has been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may now be regarded as finally established."

The point: there are some people who do not have an historical perspective of literature, who try to make an issue out of the fact that the writers of the four accounts of the gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, never signed their names. Please, men and women, we need to go back through history and see how they did it then.

First of all, the manuscripts were so well-accepted as being authoritative, with everyone knowing who wrote them, they did not need names placed on them. You might say it was the writers' way of not distracting from the purpose of making Jesus Christ the central issue. Also, the work of these authors, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, went through the apostolic age. They went through the test of the apostolic period of the first century to confirm their accuracy, authenticity and reliability. Other people, through limited reading and absence of any type of research, say that the documents of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are hearsay because the writers were not eyewitnesses of the events surrounding the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The people who say that will often appeal to Mark 14:50. They say that within two minutes they could dismiss the argument because Jesus' followers all left Him and fled. So therefore, everything was hearsay. Men and women. this line of reasoning ignores common sense in the facts of the case. For example, read just the next four verses. It says this: "And Peter followed Him." You see, they left Him in a group, but they came back individually - immediately, Mr. Deedat.

Verse 4 says: "And Peter followed Him at a distance." He went right into the courtyard of the high priest. And he was sitting there with the officer. Can you imagine? With the officers, and warming himself. In Mark 14, it says, "And Peter was below, in the courtyard." Men and women, if you have studied the Scriptures, you'll realize that Mark, in his gospel, was writing down all the eyewitness accounts of Peter. Peter was right there. Then we go to John 18, verse 15: "And Simon Peter was following Jesus, and so was another disciple. Now that disciple was known to the high priest and entered with Jesus into the court of the high priest." John 19:26, "When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, 'Woman, behold your son.' " They were eyewitnesses. They were there.

About being permissible in a court of law. In most legal situations, you have what can be referred to as an ancient document rule. Now, you have to go to law to substantiate these things. Dr. John Warwick Montgomery is a lawyer and dean of the Simon Greenleaf School of Law, and a lecturer at the International School of Theology and Law in Strasbourg, France.

He said that the application of the ancient document rule to the documents of the New Testament (especially the four gospels) - this is a head of a law school speaking - "Applied to the gospel records, and reinforced by responsible lower (textual) criticism, this rule would establish competency in any court of law."

The greatest eyewitness testimony is not found in the gospels. It is found in I Corinthians, the epistle by the apostle Paul, chapter 15, and was written in A.D. 55 to 56. I have yet to find a reputable scholar who would deny that. Paul says (now it's 20 years earlier, right after his conversion - he had met with the leaders. He had met with James, the brother of Jesus in Jerusalem), that the tradition was passed on to him that there were over 500 eyewitnesses of the resurrection. If you take that into a court of law, give each eyewitness just six minutes, that would make 3,000 minutes of eyewitness testimony, or 50 hours of eyewitness testimony.

However, that's not the key point here. That was the tradition handed down to him, what he had examined personally. But Paul says then, the majority of them are still alive right now. Not when the tradition was passed down, but right now. Men and women, Paul was saying, "If you don't believe me, ask them."

Also, many people overlook the fact that when the message of Jesus Christ was presented by the apostles and disciples, and the New Testament was shared, present in the audience were hostile and antagonistic witnesses. If they would have dared to depart from the truth of what was said, there were hostile witnesses to correct them immediately. In a court of law that is referred to as the principle of cross-examination. They did not dare to depart from the truth. Also, apart from the Bible, you have several extra biblical secular sources.

One, a man by the name of Polycarp, was a disciple of the apostle John. He writes in his works. going back almost 2.000 years ago, "So firm is the ground upon which these gospels rest, that even the heretics themselves would not undermine it." They had to start from what was presented and then develop their own heresy. Because even then, they could not say, Jesus didn't say that. Jesus didn't do that then ... they couldn't do that. So, they had to start with what He said, and develop their own heresy.

The conclusion of many scholars is a tremendous confidence in the Christian Bible. Mr. Millar Burrows was on the staff of Yale University, one of the most prestigious universities in my country. He said, "There is an increase of confidence in the accurate transmission of the text of the New Testament itself." Dr. Howard Vox, a researcher and archaeologist, said, "From the standpoint of literary evidence, the only logical conclusion is in the case where the reliability of the New Testament is infinitely stronger than any other record of antiquity."

The sixth fact that I discovered was that Christ was crucified. What does the historical, reliable record show? It is clear, not only from the Christian's biblical historical record, but also from secular sources, which are documented in the back of my book, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, that He not only predicted His death by crucifixion, but that He was actually crucified. Jesus said that He would be whipped and delivered over to be crucified. And then. in John 19:17. 18, "They took Jesus therefore, and He went out, bearing His own cross, to the place called the Place of a Skull.... There they crucified Him, and with Him two other men, one on either side, and Jesus in between."

Let's follow through what actually happened. First of all, it points out that Jesus was whipped by the Romans. What did that mean? The Romans would strip a person down to the waist and would tie him in the courtyard. Then they would take a whip that had a handle about a foot and a half long. At the end of the handle, it had four leather thongs with heavy, jagged bones or balls of lead with jagged edges, wound into the end of the straps. A minimum of five. They would be different lengths. The Romans would bring the whip down over the back of the individual and all the balls of lead or bone would hit the body at the same time. and they they would yank the whip down. The Jews would only permit 40 lashes. So they never did more than 39 so they wouldn't break the law if they miscounted. The Romans could do as many as they wanted. So, when the Romans whipped a Jew, they did 41 or more out of spite to the Jews. And so he had probably at least 41, if not more, lashes.

There are several medical authorities that have done research on crucifixion. One is a Dr. Barbet, in France, and another is Dr. C. Truman Davis, in the state of Arizona in my country. He is a medical doctor who has done meticulous study of the crucifixion from a medical perspective. Here he gives the effect of the Roman flogging:

"The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across (a person's) shoulders, back and legs. At first, the heavy thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutalleous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises, which the others cut wide open. Finally, the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons, and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue."

Other sources I have documented said that sometimes the back is literally opened up to the bowels within. Many people would die just from the whipping.

After the whipping they took Jesus out to the execution area and drove spikes into His wrists and His feet. It says that late that Friday afternoon they broke the legs of the two thieves hanging with Jesus, but they did not break His legs. Now, why did they break someone's legs? When you are prostrate on the cross, or hanging there, they bent the legs up underneath and drove the spike through here. When you died by crucifixion, often what would happen is you would die from your own air. The pectoral muscles would be affected and you could not let your air out. You could take it in, but could not let it out.

And so, you'd hang there and suffocate, you would push up on your legs to let the air out, and then come down to take it in. When they wanted to bring about the death immediately, they broke their legs and they couldn't push up, and they would die. Jesus' legs were not broken. As the Holy God, revealing His Holy Word in the Bible, points out, Jesus had died. Men and women, if they had broken His legs, He would not have been our Messiah. He would not have been the Eternal Word, because God, Yahweh in the Old Testament, prophesies in Psalms that His legs would not be broken. His bones would not be broken. Men and women, He was fulfilling what God, Yahweh, had already revealed would take place.

The next fact that I discovered was that Christ was dead. That's the seventh fact that I discovered, Men and women, in John 19:30, Jesus willed Himself to die, That's why He didn't take so long, He came to die. He said, "I lay My life down." And in John 19, He said, "It is finished," and He bowed His head and He gave up the Spirit, He willed Himself to die, Now, in John 19, verse 34 (Mr. Deedat, in his booklet, has referred to it as 'Evidence That Jesus Was Not Dead') you have reference to the blood and water.

He was on the cross and they'd already acknowledged Him being dead, but they thought they'd give a parting shot, as you would say, They took a spear, and thrust it into His side. Eyewitness accounts said blood and water came out separated, Mr. Deedat, in his book, appealed to this phenomenon as evidence that Christ was still alive, He supports this in his writing, by an appeal to an article in the Thinkers Digest 1949, by an anesthesiologist. I was able to acquire medical research by various people in this area.

I have time to share just two of the findings. First, from a scholastic viewpoint: many medical and university or varsity libraries that once carried this journal, no longer do so. It is considered by many in the medical field to be not only out of date, but behind the medical times.

Second, from a medical viewpoint: A wound of the type inflicted on Jesus, if the person were still alive, would not bleed out the wound opening, but bleed into the chest cavity, causing an internal hemorrhage. At the aperture of the wound, the blood would be barely oozing from the opening, For a spear to form a perfect channel that would allow the blood and serum to flow out the spear wound is next to impossible. The massive internal damage done to a person under crucifixion, and then being speared in the heart area, would cause death almost immediately, not even including what happens with the details of a Jew's burial.

At the State of Massachusetts General Hospital, over a period of years, they did research on people who died of a ruptured heart. Normally, the heart had 20 cc's of pericardial fluid. When a person dies of a ruptured heart, there is more than 500 cc's of pericardial fluid, And it would come out in the form of a fluid and clotted blood. Perhaps this is what was viewed at that time.

The Jewish burial would have been a final death blow. Mr. Deedat says in his book, page 9, in "What Was the Sign of Jonah"? that they gave the Jewish burial bath, plastered him with 100 pounds of aloe and myrrh. Now, going through whipping, where the back is almost laid open, having your arms and feet pierced, being put on a cross, having a spear thrust in your side, being taken down and then plastered with 100-some pounds of spices of cement consistency - it would call for a greater miracle than the resurrection to live through that,

Then, the severe discipline of the Romans. Pilate was a little amazed, and I would have been too, that Christ had already been dead, or that they had come and asked for the body, So, he called a centurion in. And he said, "I want you to go and confirm to me that Jesus is dead." Now men and women, this centurion was not a fool. He was not about ready to leave his wife a widow.

The centurion would always check with four different executioners. That was Roman law. There had to be four executioners. They did that so in case one man was a little lax, the other one would catch him in it, And you would never have all four lax in signing the death warrant. Discipline was severe with the Romans.

For example, when the angel let Peter out of jail in Acts 12 in the New Testament, Herod called in the guard and executed them all - just for letting one man out of jail. In Acts 16 in the Christian New Testament, the doors had been opened up in the jail for Paul and Silas, their chains had been loosened, and the moment the guard saw they were freed, he pulled out his own sword to execute himself. And Paul said, "Wait a minute!" You see, that guard knew what would happen, He would rather die by his own sword, than be executed by the Romans.

Then Christ was dead. Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian, records that when he went into Jerusalem in A.D. 70 when Titus was destroying it, he saw three of his friends being crucified. They had just been put up there. They had been whipped and everything. He went to the commander of the guard and he said, "Please release them." Now, you have to understand, Flavius was the name given to Josephus by the Roman Emperor who had brought him into his own family. That's why he had influence as a Jew. And you know, immediately, the Roman guard captain took the three men down from the cross and still, men and women, two of the three died. They'd just been put up there and they were removed quickly. Crucifixion was that cruel.

The Jews knew that Jesus was dead. In Matthew 27 they went to the Roman leader and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive. ..." In other words, what is He now? Dead! "When He was still alive He said, 'After three days I am to rise again.' "I believe Mr. Deedat has his books saying that the Jews realized they'd made a mistake. He really wasn't dead, so they thought they wouldn't make a second mistake, so they go and get a guard unit put there. Well, the Jews themselves said He was already dead. "We just want to make sure no one takes His body so there won't be any deception." The Jews have been accused of a lot of things, but very seldom have they ever been accused of stupidity. They knew He was dead.

The next fact I discovered was the burial procedure of the Jews. Some people say they were hurrying because of the Sabbath coming, and they had to carry Him back. Men and women, I checked this out in detail. And I documented in my Resurrection Factor book that the burial procedure was so important they could even do it on the Sabbath. They didn't have to worry about the Sabbath coming up. They didn't want the body to hang on the cross once the Sabbath began, but they could take their time burying Him. They would put spices around the body - in this case, 100 pounds of aromatic spices - along with a gummy, cement substance.

They would stretch the body out or straighten it out. They'd take a piece of linen cloth 30 centimeters wide. They would start to wrap the body from the feet. In between the folds, they put the cement consistency and the spices. They wrapped the body to the armpits, put the arms down, started below the fingers again, wrapped to the neck, and put a separate piece around the head. In this situation, I would estimate an encasement of 117 to 120 pounds.

The next fact that I discovered is that they took extreme security precautions at the tomb of Jesus Christ. One, it says that they rolled large stone against the tomb. Mark says the stone was extremely large. One historical reference going back to the first century says that 20 men could not move the stone. Now. I think it was exaggerated a little bit there. But he was making a point about the size of the stone. Two engineering professors. after they heard me speak on the stone, went to Israel. As non-Christian engineering professors, they calculated the size stone needed to roll against a four-and-a-half to five-foot doorway of the Jewish tombs. They wrote me a well-documented letter, and said it would have to have a minimum weight of one and a half to two tons.

Mr. Deedat, in his books, makes an issue that one man, or two at the most, rolled the stone against the entrance. Therefore, one or two men could roll it back. It says Joseph of Arimathea rolled the stone against the entrance. Don't force on the Bible or the Qur'an anything you would not force in conversation today. For example: when I came to the stadium the other day to look it over. I said to one of the people that brought me here, "How did all these chairs get here?" He said, "Mr. Deedat brought them." Mr. Deedat, did you bring all 700 of these chairs personally, yourself? No! They were brought by many people. I could go away from here saying Mr. Deedat put on this symposium. But I think there were some others that helped make all the arrangements.

History says Hitler invaded France. Now, maybe he would have tried it in France alone, but I don't think he would try it in South Africa alone.

There could have been a number of people that helped Joseph of Arimathea. Plus, you find when you go back and research it out that the tombs had a trough going up the side. They placed the stone there. They had a block. Then, men and women, my seven-year-old daughter could roll it, because you simply pull up the block, letting the stone roll down the front and lodge itself against the entrance of the tomb.

Then, a security guard was put there. The Jews wanted one. They went to the Romans and said, give us a guard unit. The Greek word was kustodia. Men and women, a kustodia was a 16-man security unit. Each man was trained to protect six square feet of ground. The 16 men, according to Roman history, were supposed to be able to protect 6 square yards against an entire battalion and hold it. Each guard had four weapons on his body. He was a fighting machine, almost the same as was true of the Temple Police.

Next, a Roman seal was placed on the tomb with a Roman insignia. That seal stood for the power and the authority of the Roman Empire. The body of Christ was encased with 100 and some pounds of cement and aromatic spices. A one-and-a-half to two-ton stone was rolled against the entrance: a 16-man security unit was placed there, and a Roman seal. But something happened. It's a matter of historical record: after three days, the tomb was empty.

I don't have to debate that. Mr. Deedat agrees the tomb was empty. So, I won't waste any time here.

The sign of Jonah - I'm so glad you brought that up. The sign of Jonah - won't take too much time there because I don't think it's necessary in this sense. Whenever you study something, you study it in the language and the culture of that day. Now, you go back to the Jewish language, and the Jewish culture of that day. Not today - not South African, not Indian, not American. The Jewish-Israelite culture of that day.

Let's see what three days and three nights mean. In Esther, chapter 4, in the Old Testament of the Christian Jewish Bible, it says there was a fast for three days and three nights. But then. it went on, and it says they completed the fast on the third day. You see. in Jewish language, "after three days and three nights," meant "to the third day" or "on the third day." Jesus said in Matthew 12:40 He would be buried for three days and three nights.

In Matthew 20, Jesus said He would be raised up on the third day - not after the third day. The Jews came to Jesus, and they said in Matthew 27, verse 63, "Sir...that deceiver said 'After three days I am to rise again.'" So, they asked for a Roman guard. Now watch the language here. "Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day," not after the third day. They knew what Jesus said, three days and three nights, meant until the third day, "lest His disciples come and steal Him away."

Friday before six o'clock they had three hours to bury Him. It took less than an hour. The Jewish reckoning of time in the Jewish Talmud and the Babylonian Jerusalem Talmud (the commentaries of the Jews), said any part, an "onan" - any part of the day is considered a full day. On Friday before six o'clock by Jewish reckoning, any minute was one day and one night. From Friday night at six o'clock to Saturday at six o'clock, was another day and another night.


Men and women, from Jewish reckoning - not ours - any moment after six o'clock Saturday night is another day, another night. We do the same thing in my country. If my son was born one minute before midnight on December the 31st, on my income taxes to my government, I could treat my son with the same time principle as having been born at any time during that one full year - 365 days and 365 nights.

When the Roman guards failed in their duty, they were automatically executed. One way they were executed was they were stripped of their clothes and burned alive in a fire started with their own clothes. The seal was broken. Men and women, when that seal was broken, the security forces were thrown into finding that man or men, and when they were found, anyone breaking that seal was condemned to crucifixion upside down.

The stone was removed, men and women, and I'll ask Mr. Deedat to check it out carefully. The revealed Word of God in the Christian New Testament, in the original Greek (as the Qur'an is in Arabic, the New Testament is in Greek), points out that a one-and-a-half- to two-ton stone was rolled up a slope, away from not just the entrance, but away from the entire tomb, looking like it had been picked up and carried away. Now, if they wanted to tip-toe in, move the stone over, and help Jesus out, why all the efforts to move a one-and a-half to two-ton stone up away from the entire sepulchre? That guard unit would have had to have been sleeping with cotton in their ears and with earmuffs on not to have heard that one.


Then, Mary went to the tomb in John 20. Mr. Deedat says that she went there to anoint the body and that the word "anoint" means "to massage." Well, let me tell you, if that's true - it's not - but if it were true, and that's the way the Muslims do it, it would have killed Jesus. If I went through crucifixion, had my hands and feet pierced, my back laid open to the bowels, 100 and some pounds put around me, I wouldn't want anyone to massage me. The word "anoint" means "consecrated." As Mr. Deedat brought out in his book, the priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their office. When He said, "Touch Me not," Mr. Deedat says it means, "I am hurting - don't touch Me." Well, read the next phrase, Mr. Deedat. It says, "Do not touch Me, because I haven't yet ascended to the Father."


That's why they're not to touch Him because "I haven't ascended to the Father." And then He says, "Now, go tell My disciples I am ascending to the Father." A little bit later, He says, "You can touch Me. Grab My feet." Why did He do that? Oh, men and women, this is one of the most beautiful things. In the Old Testament, at the tabernacle, the Jewish high priest would take the sacrifice into the Holy of Holies. And the people would wait outside, because they knew if God did not accept their sacrifice, the priest would be struck dead.

They would wait for the high priest to come back. And when the high priest walked back out, everybody shouted with joy! Because they said, "God has accepted our sacrifice" Jesus said, "Don't touch Me ... I've not ascended to the Father." Jesus, between that time and when the others grabbed hold of Him and touched Him, ascended to God the Father, presented Himself as a sacrifice, and, ladies and gentlemen, if Jesus had not come back, if He had not permitted the others to touch Him, it would have meant His sacrifice had not been accepted. But I thank God He came back and said, "Touch Me". It's been accepted.

As for the spiritual physical body of Jesus Christ, I think, Mr. Deedat, you need to first study our Scriptures. I think you need to read just as I did to study your scriptures. You need to read I Corinthians 15:44, 51. The explanation of the glorified, imperishable body. It was a spiritual body, and yet, it had substance. He could walk through a door; He could appear in their presence. He didn't need food, but He took food. Otherwise, they would have said, "You're merely a spirit." No, He had what the Bible called the resurrected, glorified, incorruptible body. And if I were in that room and I knew I'd seen Him crucified, buried and everything else, and all of a sudden, with the doors locked, He appeared in the midst of the group, I think I'd be a little frightened, too. Men and women, Jesus Christ is raised from the dead! Thank you.



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* REBUTTALS


# Ahmed Deedat

Mr. Chairman, and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The crux of the problem - the clear-cut statement by Jesus Christ, is the mistake that the disciples were making in thinking that He had come back from the dead. By assuring them that "a spirit has no flesh and bones, as you see Me have." This is King's English, basic English. And one does not need a dictionary or a lawyer to explain to you what it implies.

Throughout the length and breadth of the 27 books of the New Testament, there is not a single statement made by Jesus Christ that "I was dead, and I have come back from the dead." The Christian has been belaboring the word resurrection. Again and again, by repetition, it is conveyed that it is proving a fact. You keep on seeing the man, the man's eating food, as though He was resurrected. He appears in the upper room - He was resurrected. Jesus Christ never uttered that word that "I have come back from the dead," in the 27 books of the New Testament, not once.

He was there with them for 40 days. And He never uttered that statement. He is proving again and again that He was that same Jesus, the one who had escaped death, so to say, by the skin of His teeth. Because He was ever in disguise. He never showed Himself openly to the Jews. He had given them a sign. "No sign shall be given unto it except the sign of Jonah." No sign, but this. And He never went back to them to the temple of Jerusalem, to tell them, "Here I am." Not once. He was ever in hiding. Now, we will not belabor the things that have passed.

The points were, that Jesus was not reluctant to die. He had actually come for this purpose. Now, my reading of the Scriptures tells me that not only was He reluctant, but He was preparing for a show-down with the Jews. You see, at the last Supper, He raises the problem of defense, telling His disciples, "As you remember, when I sent you out on your mission of preaching and healing, I told you that you were not to carry anything with you. No purse, no sticks. No staff. Did you lack anything?"

And they said "No, we lacked nothing." But now, I tell you, He tells them, "Those of you who have no swords must sell their garments and buy them." You must sell your garments and buy swords. I'm asking you, what do you do with swords? You peel apples? Or you cut people's throats? What do you do with swords? So one of them said, "Master, we have two already." And He said, "That is enough."

And He takes His disciples - 11 of them. Judas had already gone to betray Him. Eleven disciples and Himself, and they walk to Gethsemane. And at Gethsemane - read the book, read your gospels - and it'll tell you that Jesus put eight men at the gate. I'm asking you, why should He go to Gethsemane in the first place? And why put eight at the gate, telling them, "Tarry ye here, and watch with Me."

He means, stop here, and keep guard. Guarding what? What was there to guard in Gethsemane? A courtyard, olive press, empty place. What were they, the disciples, to guard five miles out of town at Gethsemane? Then He takes with Him, Peter, and the two sons of Zebedee. At least two of them had swords. And He makes an inner line of defense and He tells them, "Tarry ye here, sit ye here, and watch with Me. While I go and pray yonder... I alone go and pray beyond." I'm asking you, why did He go to Gethsemane? Why did He go there - to pray? Couldn't He have prayed in that upper room, while there at the Last Supper? Couldn't He have gone to the temple of Jerusalem, a stone's throw from where they were? Why go five miles out of town? And why put eight at the gate? And why make an inner line of defense?

And He goes a little farther, and falls on His face, and He prays to God. "Oh, my Father ... if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me." Meaning, remove the difficulty from Me, but not as I will, but as Thou wilt. In the end, I leave it to You. But I want You to save Me. And, being in agony, He prayed more earnestly, and His sweat was as if it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Is this how one man, a person goes to commit suicide? Is this how the person who is ordained from the foundation of the earth, for the sacrifice, is this how He behaves, I ask you?

That He is sweating, it says, being in an agony, He prays more earnestly, and His sweat was as if it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. And the Lord of Mercy sends His angel, says the Bible. An angel came to strengthen Him. I say, in what? In the belief that God was going to save Him. What does the angel come to strengthen Him in? To save Him. And in everything that happened from there onward, you can see God planning His rescue. Look. The fact was that the pro- phecy He had made was that He would be like Jonah - and we are told that He was unlike Jonah. He didn't fulfill. Jonah is alive, Jesus is dead.

Then, Pontius Pilate - he marveled when he was told that Jesus was dead because in his knowledge, he knew no man can die within three hours on the cross. Because this crucifixion was to be a slow, lingering death. This was the real purpose of crucifixion. It was not getting rid of an anti-social character, like a firing squad, or hanging, or impaling a person. It was a slow, lingering death.

And the bones were not broken - says the Bible. It was a fulfillment of prophecy. Now, the bones of an individual - of a dead person - whether you break them or not, is of the least consequence. If the bones were not broken, the only time it can help anybody, is if the person was alive. So you see, for 2,000 years now, it's a programming, a continuous programming. And Paul has put the whole gamut of religion on one point: on this death and resurrection, because he tells us, I Corinthians, chapter 15, verse 14, that "if Christ is not risen from the dead, our preaching is in vain: our faith is in vain." Useless! You haven't got a thing!

So now, like drowning men clutching at straws, the Christian must, by hook or by crook, prove that somehow crucifixion killed the man, so we can earn salvation. Now, we would like you, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, to read this book once more, and the testimony, word for word. If you examine the prophecies - what Jesus says, and the way He behaves - they are conclusive proof that Christ had not been crucified .



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# Josh McDowell

I'm not sure that I heard, but did you say, "Nowhere in the 27 books of the New Testament did Jesus ever say He was 'dead and now alive'"? May I read to you from the book of Revelation, chapter 1, verse 18? He said, "I am the living one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore." Also, Mr. Deedat, He appeared to the Jews. The whole New Testament Church was started with Jews. He appeared to the Jewish antagonist, the apostle Paul, when he was Saul of Tarsus.

But men and women, the greatest thrill to me, when it comes to the resurrection and Christ as my Life and Savior, is that God Yahweh has promised, when a man enters into that relationship through asking Christ to forgive him, who died for our sins, was buried and raised again on the third day, that God, the Holy Spirit, enters that person and changes them. And one of the greatest evidences is my own life. After I came to the point where I acknowledged Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord, surrendered my will up to Him, and trusted Him, men and women, in about six months to a year, or a year and a half, the major areas of my life were changed.

First, I developed a desire to live a holy and godly life. Second, I started to experience a peace and genuine joy - it wasn't because I don't have conflict - it's in spite of conflict, the peace that God gives through Jesus Christ. Third, I gained control over my temper. I almost killed a young man my first year in a university. I was constantly losing my temper. After I trusted Jesus as Savior and Lord, I would catch myself arising to the crisis of losing my temper, and it was gone!

Not only my friends noticed it, but my enemies did a lot sooner. And only once now, in 22 years that I have had a personal relationship with God Yahweh, the Father, through His Eternal Word, the Son, only once have I lost my temper. He has given me a supernatural strength over it.

The greatest area, men and women, that I'm thankful I can share here, is the very love of God. In this sense: My father was the town alcoholic. I hardly ever knew my father when he was not drunk. My friends in school would make jokes about my father making a fool of himself. I lived on a farm and I'd go out to the barn and see my mother lying in the gutter in the manure - the bathroom of the cows - beaten so badly by my father, my mother couldn't get up and walk.

We would have friends over. I'd take my father, tie him up in the bam, and park the car up around the side, and tell my friends he had to go on an important business trip, so I wouldn't be embarrassed. I'd take him into the bam where the cows would have their little calves. I'd put his arms through the boards, and tie them. I'd put a rope around his neck and pull his head all the way over the backboard, and tie it around the feet, so if he shuffled his feet, he would kill himself.

One evening, two months before I graduated from high school, I came home from a date. When I went into the house, I heard my mother crying profusely. And I said, "What's wrong?" She said, "Your father has broken my heart. And all I want to do is live until you graduate, then I just want to die."

Do you know, two months later, I graduated. And the next Friday, the 13th, my mother died. Don't tell me that you can't die of a broken heart. My mother did, and my father broke it. There was no one I could have hated more. But men and women, when I came into this relationship with God Yahweh, through His Eternal Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, after a short period of time, the love of God took control of my life, and He took that hatred and turned it upside down.

So much so, I was able to look my father square in the eyes and say: "Dad, I love you." And the neatest thing is, I really meant it! I transferred to another varsity or university. I was in a serious car accident with my legs, arm and neck in traction. I was taken home. My father came into my room. He was very sober because he thought I was almost dead. He asked me this question: "How can you love a father such as I?" I said, "Dad, six months ago, I despised you. I hated you." Then I shared with him how I'd come to the conclusion seen so clearly, that God Yahweh, the Father, had manifested Himself to us, humanity through the Eternal Word, His Son. And then He had died for our sins, that's the anguish He went through, Mr. Deedat.

If you could imagine all the sins in the world - just your sins and my sins would be enough. But all the sins in the world are upon the Son. The anguish that was involved. And I said, "Dad, I asked Christ to forgive me. I asked Him to come into my life as Savior and Lord." I said, "Dad, as the result of that, I have found the capacity to love and accept not only you, but other people just the way they are."

I can look at you, Mr. Deedat, and say, "I honestly love you ... God has given me a love for you ... I love you so much, I would love to have you come to know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord." And my father finally just said, "Son, if your God can do in my life what I have seen Him do in your life, then I want to know Him personally."

Right there, my father just prayed something like this: "God, if You're God, and Christ is the Eternal Word, Your Son, if You can forgive me and come into my life and change me, then I want to know You personally."

Men and women, my life was basically changed in six months to a year, to a year and a half. And there are still many areas for God to change. But then, take my father. His life was changed right before my eyes. Mr. Deedat, it was like somebody reached out and turned on a light bulb. Do you know, he only touched whiskey once after that. He got it to his lips, and that was it. He didn't need it anymore. Fourteen months later, he died. Because three-fourths of his stomach had to be removed, as a result of 40-some years of drinking. But do you know, ladies and gentlemen, in that 14-month period, scores of businessmen in my home town and the surrounding area committed their lives to the living God, through the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ, because of the changed life of one of the town's drunks.

My wife, Dottie, puts it this way. She says, "Honey, because Christ was raised from the dead, He lives. And because He lives, He has the infinite capacity through the Holy Spirit to enter a man or woman's life, and change them from the inside out." That is why the resur- rected, living Christ said in one of the 27 books of the New Testament, "I was dead, now I am alive." He can say, "I stand at the door of your life and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in."



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* CLOSING STATEMENTS


# Ahmed Deedat

Mr. Chairman and ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Man is coward by nature. From the beginning of Adam, you remember, passing the buck. It's not me, it's the woman; and the woman, it's not me, it's the serpent. Man is coward by nature. And we want somebody else to carry the burden for us. We want somebody else to take the medicine when we are sick. We want somebody else's appendix to be removed, when ours is rotten. This is man in general.

But this is not what Jesus Christ said. He wanted you to take up your own cross - get yourself crucified. Listen! He says, "He is not of Me who does not take his cross and follow Me." Take up your cross and follow Me. In other words. Get yourself crucified. No, no, no. No, He didn't mean that. What He meant was, that as I carry My responsibility, you carry yours. As I pray, you pray. As I fast. you fast: as I'm circumcised, you be circumcised, what I do, you do. You carry your own responsibility.

This is what He meant. Now, that is the Islamic system! This is what Islam teaches. You see, the system that saves you after years of alcoholism, after years of pinching 10 cents from the collection plate, you read it here, in Josh's book, He says every Sunday, the only thing he got out of church was he was putting in 25 cents and taking out 35 for milk-shakes. And then, later on in life, if you study, we find the same thing is being done on a very high level of intellectualism, But we haven't got the time to go into that.

Let me end with the message of Jesus: He says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." There's no heaven for you. This is what He says; these are His words. And what is happening is, you are not contradicting His words. This is Islam! Unless you are better than the Jews, there is no heaven for you.

He didn't say it's the blood, but your righteousness, You must be better than the Jews, You must fast, as the Jews fasted, but on a higher level: you must pray, as the Jews prayed, but on a higher level, you must give charity, as the Jews gave charity, but on a higher level. And that is Islam.

So, Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I say that this resurrection, as has been addressed by Josh in America, under the heading, "Hoax or History," I will conclude that here are one thousand million people being taken for a ride on a cross. In Durban, every week, we have horses taking thousands of people for a ride - every horse. But here, you are being taken for a ride on the cross.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.



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# Josh McDowell

Mr. Deedat, nowhere in the Christian Bible revealed by God is a Christian ever commanded to be crucified. We are told to acknowledge that we are already crucified in Jesus Christ.

In Romans 8:32, God, speaking from eternity into time, says, "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up ... up for us all." In my country, a young lady, who was picked up for speeding, was brought before the judge, The judge said, "Guilty or not guilty?" and she said, "Guilty." He brought down the gavel, and the judge fined her $100 or 10 days. Then, an amazing thing took place. The judge stood up, took off his robe, placed it over the back of the chair, went down in front, and paid the fine. He was a just judge. His daughter had broken the law.

No matter how much he loved his daughter, he had to say $100 or 10 days. But he loved her enough, he was willing to go down, and take the penalty upon himself, and pay it. This is a clear illustration of what God Yahweh has revealed through His Holy Word. God loves us. Christ died for us. The Bible very clearly points out the wages of sin is death. So, God had to bring down the gavel.

But, men and women, He loved us so much, He was able to set aside His judicial robe, and come down in the form of the man Jesus Christ. And go to the cross and pay the price for us. And now, He can say, "I stand at the door of your life and knock. And if anyone hears My voice, and opens the door, I will come in."

Yes, Mr. Deedat, one billion Christians are riding on the cross. We are being taken for a ride. I believe God has provided the cross as the chariot to heaven, through the shed blood of His divine Son.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen, for giving me the privilege, as a person from another country, to come here, and Mr. Deedat, I am greatly indebted to you for this opportunity. And if you come to my country, we'll have dinner together. Thank you.

[Ajnabi]

What does the Holy Quran say about Jesus (peace be upon him):

Muslims believe that Jesus peace be upon him according to the Holy Quran is a wonderful, humble, generous messenger of God who came down and revealed God's words to his people, the people of Israel. Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God, nor they believe that God ever chose to come down to earth in a form of a man to die for our sins to purify us and forgive us.

According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross. Muslims believe that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross. The Holy Quran rejects this idea, and claims that it is a false one. Jesus never died on the cross, nor he ever died for anyone's sins. Let us look at what the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) says about this issue:

Let's look at verse 4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." The false charge against Mary was that she was unchaste. Such a charge is bad enough to make against any woman, but to make it against Mary, the mother of Jesus, was to bring into redicule Allah's power itself. Islam is specially strong in guarding the reputation of women. Slanderers of women are bound to bring four witnesses in support of their accusation, and if they fail to produce four witnesses, they are be flogged with eighty stripes and debarred forever from being competent witnesses.

Let us look at verse 24:4 "And those who launch A charge against chaste women, And produce not four witnesses (To support their allegations) Flog them with eighty stripes; And reject their evidence Ever after: for such men Are wicked transgressors. Unless they repent thereafter And mend (their conduct); For Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." Here we see in this Holy Verse how much Allah Almighty cares about not criticizing women unless we are absolutely sure about it and we can provide at least 4 witnesses to support our allegation.

Now in 4:156-159 above "......Nor crucified him,....."

The end of the life of Jesus on earth is as much involved in mystery as his birth, and indeed the greater part of his private life, except the three main years of his ministry. It is not profitable to discuss the many doubts and conjectures among the early Christians sects and among Muslims theologians. The Orthodox-Christian Churches make it a cardinal point of their doctrine that his life was taken on the Cross, that he died and was buried, that on the third day he rose in the body with his wounds intact, and walked about and conversed, and ate with his disciples, and was afterwards taken up bodily to heaven. This is necessary for the theological doctrine of blood sacrifice and vicarious atonement for sins, which is rejected by Islam. But some of the early Christian sects did not believe that Christ was killed on the cross. The Basilidans believed that someone else was substituted for him. The Docetate held that Christ never had a real physical or natural body, but only an apparent or phantom body, and that his crucifixion was only apparent, not real. The Marcionite Gospel (about A.C. 138) denied that Jesus was born, and merely said that he appeared in human form. The Gospel of St. Barnabas supported the theory of substitution on the Cross. The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, not with standing certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of his enemies; that disputations, doubts, and conjectures on such matters are vain; and that he was taken up to Allah Almighty.

Let us look at verse 3:55 "Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee And raise thee to Myself And clear thee (of the falsehoods) Of those who blaspheme; I will make those Who follow thee superior To those who reject faith, To the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, And I will judge Between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." Here we see that Allah Almighty promised Jesus peace be upon him to raise him to heaven. Jesus was charged by the Jews with blasphemy as claiming to be God or the son of God. The Christians (except a few early sects which were annihilated by persecution, and the modern sect of Unitarians), adopted the substance of the claim, and made it the cornerstone of their faith. Allah Almighty clears Jesus of such a charge or claim. Those who follow Jesus are the Muslims and the Christians who don't believe he is God. All of the controversies about dogma and faith will disappear when we appear before Allah. He will judge not by what we profess but what we are.

In 4:156-159 "......Nay Allah raised him up Unto Himself....."

There is a difference of opinion as to the exact interpretation of this verse. The words are: The Jews did not kill Jesus, but Allah raised him up (rafa'ahu...in Arabic) to Himself. Some people hold that Jesus did not die the usual human death, but still lives in the body in heaven, which is the generally accepted Muslim view. Another hold that he did die but not when he was supposed to be crucified, and that is being "raised up" unto Allah means that instead of being disgraced as a malefactor, as the Jews intended, he was on the contrary honoured by Allah Almighty as His Messenger. The same word (rafa'a) is used in association with honour in connection with Al Mustafa (Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him).

Let us look at verse 94:4 "And raised high the esteem (In which) thou (are held)?". The prophet's (any prophet) virtues, the magnanimity of his character, and his love for mankind were fully recognized even in his lifetime, and his name stands highest among the heroic leaders of mankind.

Let us also look at verse 37:119 "And We (Allah) left (this blessing) for them among generations (To come) in later times: Peace and salutation To Moses and Aaron! Thus indeed do We reward Those who do right." Here we see how Allah Almighty rewards Moses and Aaron peace be upon them. They are considered his messengers.

In 4:156-159 ".....But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death...."

Those who hold that Jesus did not die say that Jesus is still living in the body and that he will appear just before the Final Day, when the world will be purified of sin and unbelief. There will be a final death before the final Resurrection, but all will have believed before that final death.

In 4:156-159 ".....He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

Jesus will be the witness of his people and his contemporaries for those who accept Allah, and against those who reject Him.

Let us look at verse 4:41-42 "How then if We brought From each People a witness, And We (Allah) brought thee As a witness against These People. On that day those who reject faith and disobey the Messenger will wish that the earth Were made one with them: But never will they hide A single fact from Allah !" Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty will judge people based on what their messengers had told them. Allah Almighty sent to nations and tribes prophets and messengers to direct those people from the darkness of Satan, to the light of Allah Almighty.

Let's look at verse 3:59 "The similitude of Jesus Before Allah is as that of Adam; He (Allah) created him (Jesus) from dust, Then said to him: Be. And he was." After a description of the high position which Jesus occupies as a prophet, we have a reputation of the dogma that he was Allah, or the son of Allah, or anything more than a man. If it is said that he was born without a human father, Adam was also so born. Indeed Adam was born without either a human father or mother. As far as our physical bodies are concerned, they are mere dust. In Allah's sight Jesus was a dust just as Adam was or humanity is. The greatness of Jesus arose from the Divine command "Be", for after that he was. He also was a great spiritual leader.

Let's look at verse 4:171-172 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say Of Allah ought but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, And His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and the Spirit proceeding From Him: so believe In Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above Having a son. To Him (Allah) Belong all things in the heavens And on earth. And enough Is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Christ disdaineth no To serve and worship Allah, Nor do the angels, those Nearest (to Allah): Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, He will gather them all Together unto Himself (Jesus) to (answer)."

In 4:171-172 ".....Commit no excesses in your religion....."

Just as a foolish servant may go wrong by excess of zeal for his master, so in religion people's excesses may lead them to blasphemy or a spirit the very opposite of religion. The Jewish excesses in the direction of formalism, radicalism, exclusiveness, and rejection of Christ Jesus have been denounced in many places. Here the Christian attitude is condemned, which raises Jesus to an equality with Allah; in some cases venerates Mary almost to idolatry; attributes a physical son to Allah; and invents the doctrine of the Trinity, opposed to all reason, which according to the Athanasian Creed, unless a man believes, he is doomed to hell forever.

Let us look at verse 11:110 "We (Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences Arose therein: had it not been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy Lord, the matter Would have been decided Between them: but they Are in suspicious doubt Concerning it." Previous revelations are not to be denied or dishonoured because those who nominally go by them have corrupted and deprived them of spiritual value by their vain controversies and disputes. It was possible to settle such disputes under the flag, as it were, or the old Revelations, but Allah's Plan was to revive and rejuvenate His Message through Islam, amongst a newer and younger people, unhampered by the burden of age-old prejudices.

Let us look at verse 10:19 "Mankind was but one nation, but differed (later). Had it not Been for a Word That went forth before From they Lord, their differences Would have been settled Between them." All mankind was created one, and Allah's Message to mankind is in essence one, the Message of Unity and Truth. But as selfishness and egotism got hold of man, certain differences sprang up between individuals, races, and nations, and in His infinite Mercy He sent them messengers and messages to suit their varying mentality, to test them by His gifts, and stir them up to emulation in virtue and piety.

When men began to diverge from one another, Allah made their very differences subserve the higher ends by increasing their emulation in virtue and piety, and thus pointing back to the ultimate Unity and Reality.

In 4:171-172 ".....Say not "Trinity": desist....."

Christ's attributes are mentioned:

1- That he was the son of a woman, Mary, and therefore a man.

2- But a messenger, a man with a mission from Allah, and therefore entitled to honour.

3- A word bestowed on Mary, for he was created by Allah's word "Be" (kun....in Arabic), and he was.

4- A spirit proceeding from Allah, but not Allah. His life and his mission were more limited than in the case of some other Messengers, through we must pay equal honour to him as a prophet from Allah.

The doctrine of Trinity, equality with Allah, and sonship, are repudiated as blasphemies. Allah is independent of all needs and has no need of a son to manage His affairs. The Gospel of John in the Bible has put in a great deal of Alexandrine and Gnostic mysticism round the doctrine of the Word (Greek, Logos), but it is simply explained in the Holy Quran.

In 4:156-159 ".....To serve and worship Allah....."

Christ often watched and prayed, as a humble worshipper of Allah; and his agony in the Garden of Gethsemane was full of human dignity, suffering, and self-humiliation.

In 4:156-159 ".....He (Jesus) will gather them all together unto Himself To (answer)."

The disdainful and the arrogant are the crew of Satan, who will be gathered together before the Supreme Throne for punishment.



Does the Noble Quran in Verse 19:33 confirm Jesus' crucifixion?

Here is what Noble Verse 19:33 states: "So peace is upon me [Jesus] the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life." Trinitarian Christians believe that Jesus was GOD Himself, or part of GOD, came to earth, was crucified on the cross to purify our sins and then raised from death back to life and went up to heaven until he will come back again to this earth. The Noble Quran does not in anyway support this theory!. We Muslims believe that Jesus was born from a Noble Virgin; Mary the Virgin, preached the word of GOD to the people of Israel, raised to Allah Almighty alive (even though he might have been put on the cross, but never actually died), will come back to earth again to fight the army of Satan and then die a natural death and then be raised again back to life from death as we all do in the Day of Judgement. Some Muslim scholars say that Jesus not being crucified in Noble Verse 4:157 means that he was put on the cross but didn't die, and others say that it means that he was not put on the cross itself and never died either. There are some Christian sects such as the Basilidans, the Docetate and the Marcionite do not believe that Jesus was put on the cross.

Either way, it doesn't really matter whether he was put on the cross or not. The more important point is that Jesus never died according to Islam. There is a similar Verse to 19:33 in the Noble Quran that was mentioned to another Messenger of GOD: "So peace on him [Yahya, or John the Baptist] the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life! (The Noble Quran, 19:15)" This Noble Verse (19:15) is similar to 19:33, where it does not at all state that any Messenger of GOD was crucified or will die twice!. The reason why no Messenger of GOD will ever die twice is because Allah Almighty said clearly in His Noble Book that every soul He creates (this includes all of His Messengers and Prophets even Jesus) shall taste death once; "Nor will they [all humans who end up in heaven] there taste death, except the first death; and He will preserve them from the penalty of the blazing fire. (The Noble Quran, 44:56)".

[Ajnabi]

Did Isaiah 53 really prophesies about the crucifixion of Jesus?

Trinitarian Christians claim that Chapter Isaiah 53 in the Bible confirms Trinity. This article proves that Chapter Isaiah 53 along with Isaiah 52:13, John 19:36-37 and Psalm 34:20 prove without a doubt that Islam's claim about Jesus peace be upon him never died on the cross and was raised to Allah Almighty is indeed the Truth. Let us look at the Chapter of Isaiah 53 in the Bible:

1
Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2
He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
8
By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death [The word "death" does not exist in the original Hebrew text. Here is what the literal translation says: "And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places"....This is verified at this link: (Young's Literal Translation)], though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death [This is clarified in details down in this article. It doesn't at all mean that he will die. The literal translation says: "Because that he exposed to death his soul"....This is verified again at this link: (Young's Literal Translation)], and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Isaiah 53 perfectly agrees with Islam:

Let us look at this Verse: "After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied; (From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 53:11)" The idea of this servant who will get pierced is NOT that he will DIE for people's sins. Notice that in Isaiah 53:9 it clearly says "He was assigned a grave with the wicked", which means that he will have a grave assigned to his name, but it doesn't necessarily mean that his dead body will be in it.



The Bible's New Testament refutes the "piercing" story:

If we were to take the Bible literally, then we will see clear contradictions in the crucifixion story. Let us look at what the Bible says about piercing Jesus:

John 19:30-40:

30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33
But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35
The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
37
and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."
38
Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away.
39
He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.
40
Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.
First of all, notice the man-made third party narration in the book of John. The NIV Bible's Historians and Theologians are not even sure who wrote the books of John, 1 John, 2 John and 3 John. The original author(s) is mysterious.

In the above verses, the mysterious author suggests that Jesus' bones were reserved because the soldiers did not break his knees, hence this fulfills the Scriptures' prophecy that GOD will protect his body that not even a single bone would break.

Also see detailed refutations to Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12, Zechariah 12:10 and Psalm 34:20 that supposedly suggest that GOD Almighty was going to get pierced on the cross.

Let us look at the obvious contradiction in the above verses:

Taken from the above verses: "These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: 'Not one of his bones will be broken,' and, as another scripture says, 'They will look on the one they have pierced.' (From the NIV Bible, John 19:36-37)"

"he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 34:20)"

Notice in Psalm 34:20, it says that GOD Almighty will protect "all his bones". So, not even an inch from his bones will be damaged according to the Scriptures.

As you might know, the crucifixion back then was done by nailing to the cross the hands and the ankles or the feet. If GOD Almighty was going to protect Jesus' body that not even a single bone will be broken, then how would the crucifixion and the death of Jesus be possible then?!

My question to all Christians is: How in the world is it possible for the feet to get nailed on the cross without any penetration to the bones by the nails, hence breaking part of the feet's bones?!

Important Note: Both Muslims and Christians believe that the grave of Jesus today is empty. It doesn't have his body in it, because both believe that he was raised to Heaven. The difference between Muslims and Christians in this issue is that Muslims believe that Jesus never died on the cross but was raised to GOD Almighty. Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross and was RESURRECTED to GOD Almighty. This is, however, not supported at all and was never foretold in the Old Testament.

In Isaiah 53, all it says is that he will get pierced which again it never mentioned the cross nor did it ever mention any sort of resurrection, not just in this chapter, but also throughout the Old Testament. If this servant is indeed Jesus peace be upon him, then him being pierced and never dying seems to perfectly support the Islamic teaching about Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER died on the cross for anyone's sins.

Also notice that Isaiah 53:11 clearly states that "he will see the light". What is that light? Could it be the light of Heaven? Probably be raised to Heaven? Christians do believe that Jesus peace be upon him was indeed raised to Heaven, and so do Muslims too. However, we see no mention throughout the ENTIRE Old Testament including obviously Isaiah 53 any mention of resurrection, nor any mention for resurrection on the 3rd day or any day. So does this mean that the servant will get pierced (by being put on the cross perhaps) and then get raised without dying?

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture): "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 "...he will be raised and lifted up....". Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say "....he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up...." Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible's Old Testament what so ever.

According to Islam, Jesus peace be upon him might have been put on the cross and might have got "pierced", but he never died. According to Islam, he was raised to Allah Almighty and saved from death. We Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him will come back again to earth and fight the army of Satan and defeat it, and then the Judgment Day will come. According to Islam, every person (including Jesus) must taste death (The Noble Quran, 44:56).

The point is that Chapter Isaiah 53 agrees a lot more with Islam's claims than with the current Christianity's claims, and it is confirmed in Isaiah 52:13.

There are several other Noble Verses in the Noble Quran that talk about Jesus such as the following:

"So peace is upon me [Jesus] the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life. (The Noble Quran, 19:33)"

The Bible's New Testament refutes the "piercing" story:

As I mentioned above, if we were to take the Bible literally, then we will see clear contradictions in the crucifixion story. Let us look at what the Bible says about piercing Jesus:

John 19:30-40:

30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32
The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33
But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35
The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
37
and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."
38
Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away.
39
He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.
40
Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.
First of all, notice the man-made third party narration in the book of John. The NIV Bible's Historians and Theologians are not even sure who wrote the books of John, 1 John, 2 John and 3 John. The original author(s) is mysterious.

In the above verses, the mysterious author suggests that Jesus' bones were reserved because the soldiers did not break his knees, hence this fulfills the Scriptures' prophecy that GOD will protect his body that not even a single bone would break.

Also see detailed refutations to Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12, Zechariah 12:10 and Psalm 34:20 that supposedly suggest that GOD Almighty was going to get pierced on the cross.

Let us look at the obvious contradiction in the above verses:

Taken from the above verses: "These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: 'Not one of his bones will be broken,' and, as another scripture says, 'They will look on the one they have pierced.' (From the NIV Bible, John 19:36-37)"

"he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 34:20)"

Notice in Psalm 34:20, it says that GOD Almighty will protect "all his bones". So, not even an inch from his bones will be damaged according to the Scriptures.

As you might know, the crucifixion back then was done by nailing to the cross the hands and the ankles or the feet. If GOD Almighty was going to protect Jesus' body that not even a single bone will be broken, then how would the crucifixion and the death of Jesus be possible then?!

My question to all Christians is: How in the world is it possible for the feet to get nailed on the cross without any penetration to the bones by the nails, hence breaking part of the feet's bones?!

So what about Isaiah 53:12? Doesn't it suggest that Jesus will actually die?

Let us look at Isaiah 5:12 "....because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors....." This verse doesn't clearly state that the predicted servant will ACTUALLY DIE. When we study carefully the poetical literature of Isaiah 53, and study carefully the claims made above, we see that "him pouring his life unto death" means that the goodness that he will bring from GOD Almighty, will be the light that will bring his people from darkness (death) into light (goodness). He will defeat death (darkness). Isaiah 5:12 does not state that he will die. It clearly states that he will cover shadow or overwhelm death by his life.

If I pour my cup of cranberry juice on the white carpet, then I would create a big red spot on the carpet. I wouldn't be changing the juice into carpet, or the carpet into juice. No, I would simply defeat the whiteness of the carpet by the color of the juice. That's what pouring the juice on the carpet means.

Same thing applies with the servant pouring his life unto death. GOD Almighty considers evil doing and not believing in Him as equal to death.

Important Note: In many Verses in the Bible, we see that GOD Almighty used in Hebrew , Sheol, the word for "hell" as the same Hebrew word for "death". That is why the Christian Jehovah Witnesses don't believe in "Hell Fire" as punishment for the unbelievers. They believe that "Hell" is actual "Death". So to put it in other words, Isaiah 53:12 could also mean that the Servant (Jesus) will over shadow or cover "hell (death)" with "life (good)". So whoever believes in that Servant from the People of Israel will be saved from hell or death.

Have Isaiah 53:12 clearly said "and he will die for people's sins and resurrect after 3 days", then we would have nothing to argue about!

So Jesus pouring his life (good) unto death (bad), means that whomever believes in his message from the People of Israel will defeat bad (darkness) and will be saved, and will have Jesus' life (goodness). This perfectly matches what Islam claims about our beloved Prophet Jesus peace be upon him.

About Jesus peace be upon him:

Most Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of GOD and GOD Himself, came to earth, died for our sins and resurrected after 3 days. If Isaiah 53 was indeed a Revelation from GOD Almighty, and Jesus peace be upon him was indeed GOD Himself, then this means that GOD Almighty predicted that He will get "pierced" for people's sins in Isaiah 53.

There are however problems with this Christian theory:

1- Jesus never by his own will died for anyone's sins. In fact, Jesus himself refused the idea of getting crucified and begged his GOD to take his soul before Jesus experiences the painful death of the cross. "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.' (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:39)" This contradicts the Christian theory that GOD will be pierced for the sin of others because if Jesus had it his way, he wouldn't get killed nor even get hurt on the cross.

2- No where in the Old Testament do we see a Prophecy about Jesus' resurrection, let alone his resurrection on the 3rd day. If GOD indeed predicted that He would get crucified in the Old Testament, then how come He only predicted the first half of the event and not the second half? The resurrection on the 3rd day is a very important event in the Christian Theology, and is one of the main points that Jews and Christians debate about.



Jesus' Crucifiction and Resurrection:

As I mentioned above, most Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of GOD and GOD Himself, came to earth, died for our sins and resurrected after 3 days. Isaiah 53's failure to predict the resurrection of the pierced person left behind it a great deal of controversy!

If GOD Almighty were to get crucified for people's sins, then Isaiah 53 should've mentioned it, because after Jesus' crucifiction in the Bible, his body disappeared.

The Jews believe that Jesus' disciples and/or mother stole the body fearing that his body will be further humiliated (since he was nailed on the cross). So to protect the dignity of Jesus and his body, they "stole" his body.

The Christians believe that Jesus the "GOD Almighty" resurrected to Heaven!

Have Isaiah 53 mentioned that he will resurrect after 3 days to Heaven, then the issue would be resolved. But as I said above, Isaiah 53 doesn't talk at all about any form of resurrection of the person who is going to die for people's sins, nor any Verse in the entire Old Testament either. Isaiah 53 does not Prophecies about the coming of Jesus peace be upon him.

This is very important, because only GOD Almighty could resurrect people. The reason why the Old Testament never prophesied about any resurrection is because GOD Almighty never intended to send anyone to die for anyone's sins, nor did GOD Almighty promise that He will die and resurrect!

Important Note: Since the Bible was not documented until 150 to 300 years after Jesus peace be upon him, and during his ministry, nothing was ever documented on paper regarding his deity, we Muslims believe that a great deal of corruption had entered the Bible. The following reasons will clarify the Muslims' position:

1- As I mentioned above, the Old Testament doesn't in predict the resurrection of Jesus, nor it ever considered him as GOD. Please read The "God" title in Isaiah 9:6 was given to others before and after Jesus.

2- The early Christians rejected Trinity and never believed in it.

3- The disciples of Jesus (John, Mark, Luke, etc...) didn't write the Gospels that were named after them in the New Testament. I quoted from the NIV Bible the Christian Theologians themselves regarding the history of the NT.

4- We believe that few centuries after Jesus peace be upon him the Church tampered with the Bible and invented the Trinity belief.

5- We only believe in Jesus' personal quotes as closest to the truth.

6- Jesus himself in the New Testament taught what Islam teaches; the Oneness of GOD Almighty and doing Righteousness.

7- Jesus according to Islam never got killed on the cross. Allah Almighty saved him. As I mentioned in point #5, we only believe in Jesus' quotes as closest to the Truth in the New Testament. Islam's claims regarding Allah Almighty saving Jesus seem to fit with Jesus peace be upon him asking Allah Almighty to save him from crucifiction (Matthew 26:39).



Question to the Jews: If the person in Isaiah 53 wasn't Jesus peace be upon him, then who is that person then?

Before I give you the answer from the Jewish perspective, please be advised that the entire Bible again is not reliable and can't be trusted; "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)" The Jews had corrupted the Bible's Old Testament to make it fit their many desires, one of them is to make them "the best nation on earth" for ALL TIMES. The reason why I presented this Verse is to show the reader that any interpretation/explanation that you hear from either Christians or Jews is doubtful. Don't forget to visit The Corruptions in the New Testament. I quoted the commentary of the NIV Bible itself; one of the most used Bible in the World.

In order to answer this question from the Jewish perspective, we have to look at Isaiah 52 and 54. Pay close attention to the C. ISAIAH 53 section below.

The following is from www.jewsforjudaism.org

Christian missionaries claim that it is only with the commentary of Rashi (1040-1105), seeking to refute the Christian interpretation, that the Jews began to refer Isaiah 52:13-53:12 to the entire nation of Israel. This misconception perhaps owes its origin to Edward Pusey, who wrote in his 1876 introduction to The "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpretations (trans. Driver and Neubauer, [reprinted] New York: Hermon Press, 1969) that "The new interpretation began with Rashi" (p. XLIV).

The interpretation was neither new, nor began with Rashi. This missionary allegation is refuted even by a Christian source. In Contra Celsum, written in 248 C.E. (some 800 years before Rashi), the Church Father Origen records that Jews contemporary with him interpreted this passage as referring to the entire nation of Israel. He wrote:

I remember that once in a discussion with some whom the Jews regard as learned I used these prophecies [Isaiah 52:13-53:8]. At this the Jew said that these prophecies referred to the whole people as though of a single individual, since they were scattered in the dispersion and smitten, that as a result of the scattering of the Jews among the other nations many might become proselytes. In this way he explained the text:

"Thy form shall be inglorious among men"; and "those to whom he was not proclaimed shall see him"; "being a man in calamity." (Origen, Contra Celsum, trans. Henry Chadwick, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, Book 1.55, 1965, p. 50)

This shows that Jewish biblical exegesis subscribing to the belief that the people of Israel was the suffering servant spoken of throughout the entire passage pre-dates Rashi by many centuries.



The following is from www.jewsforjudaism.org

Question: In Isaiah 53. Wasn't the Prophet, in fact, referring to Jesus in this chapter? And didn't all Jews before the Middle Ages recognize this chapter as "messianic"? We hope to assist you in interpreting a chapter which has become a cornerstone of Christian evangelism to Jews.

Answer: Our Jewish sages teach that "whoever saves a single Jewish soul is considered as if he had saved an entire world." How precious is the Jewish soul! Though the Bible study which follows is a lengthy one, we have prepared it in the belief that - as a Jewish soul - you are worthy of any method which may be required. We hope that you too will value your soul highly enough to prayerfully ponder that which follows. G-D's truth is not always easy to discern, but we are possessors of a Divine promise; "you will find Him if you search after Him with all your heart and all your soul" (Deut. 4:29). As faithful Jews have attested for over 3500 years, it's worth the effort. And now - on with the search!

A. PRELIMINARY ISSUES

Before engaging in an examination of Isaiah 53 itself, some preliminary issues must be considered. First is the issue of circular reasoning. Even if we interpret the chapter as the Christians do (forgetting for a minute the mistranslations and distortions of context which will be noted below), the most that could be said is this: Isaiah 53 is about someone who dies for the sins of others. People may have seen Jesus die, but did anyone see him die as an atonement for the sins of others? Of course not; this is simply the meaning which the New Testament gives to his death. Only if you already accept the New Testament teaching that his death had a non-visible, spiritual significance can you than go back to Isaiah and say, "see - the Prophet predicted what I already believe." Isaiah 53, then, is in reality no "proof" at all, but rather a contrived confirmation for someone who has already chosen Christianity.

Second (and consistent with all Jewish teaching at the time), Jesus' own disciples didn't view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). His response: "G-D forbid it, lord! This shall never happen to you" (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9. Even Jesus didn't see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his messianic claims - why else did he call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in him before the alleged resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)? And why did he later request that G-D "remove this cup from me" (Mk.14:36) - didn't he know that a "removal of the cup" would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?

And third, even if we accept the gentile Christian interpretation of Isaiah 53, where is it indicated (either in Isaiah 53 or anywhere else in our Jewish Scriptures) that you must believe in this "Messiah" to get the benefits?

B. CONTEXT

Since any portion of Scripture is only understood properly when viewed in the context of G-D's revelation as a whole, some additional study will be helpful before you "tackle" Isaiah 53.

Look at the setting in which Isaiah 53 occurs. Earlier on in Isaiah, G-D had predicted exile and calamity for the Jewish people. Chapter 53, however, occurs in the midst of Isaiah's "Messages of Consolation", which tell of the restoration of Israel to a position of prominence and a vindication of their status as G-D's chosen people. In chapter 52, for example, Israel is described as "oppressed without cause" (v.4) and "taken away" (v.5), yet G-D promises a brighter future ahead, one in which Israel will again prosper and be redeemed in the sight of all the nations (v.1-3, 8-12).

Chapter 54 further elaborates upon the redemption which awaits the nation of Israel. Following immediately after chapter 53's promise of a reward for G-D's servant in return for all of its suffering (53:10-12), chapter 54 describes an unequivocally joyous fate for the Jewish people.

Speaking clearly of the Jewish people and their exalted status (even according to all Christian commentaries), chapter 54 ends as follows: "`This is the heritage of the servants of the L-rd and their vindication is from Me,' declares the L-rd."

C. ISAIAH 53

In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.

52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called G-D's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as G-D's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by G-D, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is G-D, is G-D His own servant?

52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?" In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, G-D's "arm" refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3). 53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:3 "A man of pains and acquainted with disease." Israel's adversities are frequently likened to sickness - see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.

53:4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore." In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus' healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

53:4 "Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted." See Jer. 30:17 - of G-D's servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, "It is Zion; no one cares for her."

53:5 "But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities." Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant's sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures - see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah "shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).

53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth." Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).

Regarding the claim that Jesus "did not open his mouth" when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.

53:8 "From dominion and judgement he was taken away." Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since - by Jesus' own testimony - he never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not on the "first coming." See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.

53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living." 53:9 "His grave was assigned with wicked men." See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israelis described as "cut off" and G-D promises to open its "graves" and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9. 53:8 "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them." Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual.

The Hebrew word "lamoh", when used in our Scriptures, always means "to them" never "to him" and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 - "They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them."

53:9 "And with the rich in his deaths." Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which again makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will "come to life" when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).

53:9 "He had done no violence." See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.

53:10 "He shall see his seed." The Hebrew word for "seed", used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as "sons", is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 "He will prolong his days." Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be G-D?

53:11 "With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just." Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not "justify the many." The Jewish mission is to serve as a "light to the nations" which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true G-D, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in G-D's Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is G-D, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to G-D (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?



The following is from www.jewsforjudaism.org

Question: Isaiah 53:7 says that the suffering servant "humbled himself and opened not his mouth" as a lamb about to be slaughtered or a sheep dumb before its shearers. Does this describe Jesus' behavior at his trials?

Answer: Jesus' claim to be the Messiah was the accusation placed against him before the Sanhedrin and Pilate. To the charge of his messianic claim, Jesus answered both the Jewish authorities and Pilate in a forceful manner (John 18:19-23, 33-37).

The statement: "Therefore Pilate entered the judgment hall again and called Jesus, and said to him: 'Are you the King of the Jews?'" makes it clear that claiming to be the King Messiah was the Jewish accusation against Jesus. Matthew and Mark comment that Jesus did not answer the Jewish accusations when questioned by Pilate: "But he did not answer him, not even to a single charge" (Matthew 27:14); "But Jesus made no further answer" (Mark 15:15).

However, the list of charges made by the Jews, which is found in Luke's Gospel: "misleading our nation and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ, a King" (Luke 23:2), is answered by Jesus. The charges are answered in his defense before Pilate, as found in John's Gospel. There he claimed to head a peace-loving, nonmilitary, otherworldly group, which would not countenance revolt against the Roman Empire. John argues, with the help of alleged quotations from the trial, that Jesus claimed to be King of the Jews but not one who sought power in this world, i.e., at the expense of the Roman Empire (John 18:36).

Far from showing the humility and silence with which Isaiah describes the servant in verse 7, the encounter between the high priest, the elders, and Jesus is highlighted by a vigorous verbal exchange. In addition, Jesus did not show humility and silence during his confrontation with Pilate. At their meeting, Jesus is depicted as skillfully defending himself. Jesus at no time humbled himself, but, on the contrary, presented a clever verbal defense before Pilate (the one man who could condemn him to death), pleading shrewdly that his messianic teaching was a nonviolent, "not of this world" movement, one which the Romans need not fear. Pilate, Jesus assumed, would not be interested in a non-political, non-military movement that was not of "this world." However, Jesus' movement must have appeared to Pilate like any of the other seditious movements that confronted him. He reacted accordingly.

Jesus was obviously defending himself by presenting a shrewd verbal response when he tried to convince Pilate that he was not the head of a seditious movement but that his intentions were peaceful.

Contrary to what Christian theologians claim, the Gospels' Jesus presented a strong defense before the Jewish officials and Pilate. Jesus was not "dumb" but very outspoken before his accusers, Jewish or Gentile. Therefore, it is simply not true to say of Jesus that "he humbled himself and did not open his mouth."



The following is from www.jewsforjudaism.org

Question: Isaiah 53:4 says that the suffering servant was considered "stricken" by his enemies. Does this describe Jesus in any way?

Answer: In verse 4 the Gentile nations exclaim, concerning the servant, "we considered him stricken [by God]." The verb appears again in verse 8. This does not describe Jesus in any way whatsoever. The verb, nagua, "stricken," is commonly used in the Jewish Scriptures for being stricken with leprosy (for example, 2 Kings 5:27, 15:5; Job 19:21; Leviticus 13:3, 9, 20; Numbers 12:10). Jesus was not stricken physically with leprosy!

Yet, even metaphorically, nagua cannot be applied to Jesus who was not generally shunned as a loathsome pariah. The respectively supportive, indifferent, or hostile audiences he confronts in the Gospels show a variety of responses to his message. Those who apparently despise Jesus are numerically represented in insignificant numbers. They exist, but no more so than one may expect in reaction to any extremely controversial figure. Consideration must also be given to the fact that the great majority of contemporary Jews never heard of Jesus. The application to Jesus of nagua, that is, stricken metaphorically in the manner of one who has leprosy and treated as such by fellow human beings, is unwarranted.

[Tita]

You know, it would be a whole lot easier to participate in these debates if everyone wasn't quite so long-winded. I'd love to take up this topic with somebody, but let's try to limit it to something manageable, shall we? Like, how do we know Jesus died? Or, Did the Old Testament predict that the Messiah would die?

Any takers?

[Rasha]

me..

just give me time... I have to do some research on the bible etc. :) i'll respond in few days maybe...

[vancouver]

The main reason Jesus came to earth was to die. Adam caused the human race to die by his disobedience even though perfect. We as a result became unperfect and were in need of a ransomer to buy back the perfect life Adam lost. The Messiah was to be that perfect life with no human parents. He was transferred from heaven to the womb of Mary as an embryo. He did not die on a cross but an upright stake(xylon). The cross has come from Babylon(the first letter(Tau) of their god tammuz with the T bar lowered.The cross was one of many false religious practices that was grafted into christianity(a gross insult to God). Many try to insinuate that the bible is not the word of God but no proof has been given by such persons. Yet the prophesies of the bible have come true on time and we are living during the final phase of the prophesies that foretell the 'end of this system of things'.