THE 6 CREATION DAYS- the contradictional statements of the Bible and the miraculous statements of th

[hassanalmuslim]

THE SIX CREATION DAYS IN BIBLE AND QURAN

There is a total difference between the six days of creation as described in the Bible and as described in the Holy Qur’an. While the bible contains obvious errors and contradictions to science, the Qur’an avoids these contradictional statements and even explains secrets of the universe, which are unanswered by the present day astronomers and cosmologists.

The posting is a bit long, but it is worth reading, because I think it explains the truth very clearly.

Let`s first take a quick look at the descriptions of the creation days in genesis:

According to the notices in the first chapter of Genesis, on the first day God created light, and then divided the light from the darkness. "And it was evening and morning of the first day." The people in ancient times believed that light and darkness were two separate entities in and of themselves, and because of that it was thought that on the fourth day God made the "greater light" to rule the already existing day and the "lesser light" to rule the already existing night. Of course we know, that light is electromagnetic radiation, which is generated by stars, such as the sun. In The Quran, in Surah 79 ALLAH(SWT) Says that He Has brought the light to the heaven during the creation of the heavens (in the last two creation days). This light is described as “doha” in Arabic, which defines the brightest light. We will learn that the stars were made in the heaven during the last two creation days, when ALLAH (SWT) Was forming the heavens. That is, the light was brought to the heaven by the making of the STARS, which is totally correct. Moreover we see that the light of the stars is the brightest light in the universe.

On the second day, God separated the waters above from the waters below with a firmament, a solid dome, which he called Heaven. Of course we know today, that rain doesn´t fall because God opens gaps in the heaven to let the above water fall.
On the third day, God separated the water on earth from the dry land and created vegetation.

On the fourth day, he created the lights in the Heaven for telling signs, seasons, days and years. He made the two great lights to rule the already existing day and night, and those two lights and all the other lights in Heaven were set into the solid dome, the firmament. No difference between the sun´s light and the moon´s light is expressed.

On the fifth day, God created fish and fowl.

On the sixth day, God created every living creature including humans.

And on the seventh day, God rested. If we take it literally, we clearly see the contradiction: As I have shown in my posting “WHO ALLAH (SWT) REALLY IS”, ALLAH (SWT) is fundamentally different from His creation. He never feels tired so that He Has to rest.

In the Holy Qur’an, ALLAH (SWT) Has explained the truth very clearly. He has told exactly, how He created the heavens and the earth in six days. He emphasizes the fact, that he did NOT feel in any way tired!
The following is a study of the creation processes during the six days as described in the Holy Qur’an.

Cited Verse 1
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together in one
entity, then We forcibly Disintegrated them, and We Made from water every living thing,
do not they then believe ?.
(part 17, Surat Al Anbiya’a “The Prophets”)

Cited Verse 2
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And it is He Who Created the heavens and the earth in six days and His Throne was on
the water, to test you which of you has better deeds, and if you said that you will indeed
be resurrected after the death, the unbelievers would be sure to say, “this is nothing but
powerful sorcery.
(part 12, Surat Hood “The Prophet Hood”)

ALLAH (SWT) Gave the sequence of the creation processes and their timing in a very simple
manner that could be understood by the human mind. The precise definitions and
description and the power and the beauty of the wording is felt when reciting the Holy
Qur’an in its original language, the Arabic language. English translation of the verses of
the Holy Qur’an gives only the general meaning and concept. Detailed explanations will
be presented to convey to the reader the intended meanings as precisely as possible.
In cited verse 1, ALLAH (SWT) is Demonstrating His might and power to the
unbelievers. In this demonstration, He is Telling two very important things. The
beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the main ingredient that all
living creatures are made of.
THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, BEFORE THEIR CREATION WERE JOINED
TOGETHER IN ONE ENTITY. ALLAH (SWT) THEN FORCIBLY DISINTEGRATED
THEM. SUCH DISINTEGRATION STARTED THE CREATION OF THE HEAVENS
AND THE EARTH. ALSO ALLAH (SWT) HAS MADE EVERY LIVING THING
FROM WATER.
Since the heavens and the earth, before their creation were one entity, therefore it may
be concluded that every thing in the heavens and the earth came from the same origin.
In one verse, cited verse 1, ALLAH (SWT) Has Associated the beginning of the
creation of the heavens and the earth, with the identification of water as the main
substance of life. In cited verse 2, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created the
heavens and the earth in six days and His Throne WAS on the water. Using the past tense
“WAS”, indicates that water was present before the creation of the heavens and the earth
(Recent observations support the presence of water at the beginning of creation).
The presence of water before the forcible disintegration of the primary (massive) entity
that was joining the heavens and the earth, suggests that WATER MIGHT HAVE
CONTRIBUTED SOMEHOW TO THE ONSET OF THIS FORCIBLE
DISINTEGRATION.
For years it has been recognized that water contains the most powerful energy source
(hydrogen and oxygen). Recent scientific studies have shown that unlimited energy may
be extracted from water by a process called “cold fusion”. However, successful
realization of such techniques has not been accomplished yet.
The forcible disintegration of the massive entity must have produced fragments of all
sizes as well as huge clouds of dust. The forcible disintegration also must have generated
tremendous heat (radiation) that caused some of the water to break down to its elements,
hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen and the oxygen were then incorporated with the
huge clouds of dust. When hydrogen is subjected to extreme heat, reactions known as
“atomic fusion” occur. The fusion process releases tremendous amount of energy in the
form of heat and transforms hydrogen to helium (such process occurs in the sun, and in
most of all other stars). It has been discovered that hydrogen and helium are the most
dominant gases in the universe.
In cited verses 2 , as well as in several other verses in the Holy Qur’an,
ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created the heavens and the earth and what in between
them in six days. During the creation process which lasted six days, the earth as well as
the heavens were being created. They started to function the way they are now after the
creation process has ended, that is after the six days have ended. During the six days of
creation, the rotation of the earth about itself, which defines the length of the day was not
fully established.
Accordingly, the six days of creation are meant to be six days in the sight of ALLAH
(SWT), NOT earth days . A day in the
sight of ALLAH (SWT) is equivalent to one thousand of our lunar years. The following
may then be concluded:-
THE HEAVENS, THE EARTH AND WHAT IN BETWEEN THEM WERE
CREATED IN SIX THOUSAND OF OUR LUNAR YEARS, THAT IS 5825.24 OF
OUR SOLAR YEARS.

Cited Verses 3
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, is it that you deny Him Who Created the earth in two days and do you make equals
to Him, He is The LORD of all worlds. And He Made solid foundations on top of it, and
Bestowed blessings on it and established in it all its resources in four days in accordance
with the needs of those who seek sustenance. He then Proceeded to the heaven while it
had been smoke, and Said to it and to the earth, “come willingly or unwillingly”, they
said, “we do come in willing obedience”. He then Arranged them seven heavens in two
days, and He Assigned to each heaven its function and command, and We Adorned the
lowest heaven with lamps (illuminators) and for security, this is the design of The
Exalted in might the full of knowledge.
(part 24, Surat Fusselat “Detailed”)

The detailed sequence and the timetable for the creation of the heavens and the earth
are presented in cited verses 3. In just these few phrases, ALLAH (SWT) Gives
information that mankind with all accumulated scientific and technological knowledge
would never be able to discover. The creation sequence and timetable may conveniently be presented as follows:-
ALLAH (SWT) Created the earth in TWO DAYS (two thousand lunar years).
ALLAH (SWT) Made solid foundations (the lithosphere plates, NOT “mountains”!) on top of the earth, Bestowed blessings
on it and Established in it all its resources in FOUR DAYS (four thousand lunar
years).
ALLAH (SWT) Proceeded to the heaven while it was smoke and commanded it
and the earth to follow His rules.
ALLAH (SWT) Formed and Arranged seven heavens, and Assigned in each
heaven its function and commands in TWO DAYS (two thousand lunar years).
ALLAH (SWT) Adorned the lowest heaven with lamps (illuminators) and for
security.
In these concise verses, ALLAH (SWT) Has Given us a wealth of information and
several clues and pointers to help us understand the general aspects of the creation of the
heavens and the earth. In these verses He Has Given us a very important piece of
information about the construction of the earth. THE SOLID FOUNDATIONS ON TOP
OF THE EARTH, WHILE IT MAY BE CONSIDERED A PART OF THE EARTH, IT
IS NOT AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE EARTH. THIS MEANS THAT THE SOLID
FOUNDATIONS ARE NOT RIGIDLY FIXED TO THE EARTH BENEATH IT. THERE IS A DISCONTINUITY BETWEEN THE INNER EARTH AND THE SOLID FOUNDATIONS. ALSO WE LEARN FROM THESE VERSES THAT ALL EARTH RESOURCES ARE
LOCATED WITHIN THE SOLID FOUNDATIONS AND ABOVE.
Another very important piece of information is given in these verses. After the
creation of the earth, THE HEAVEN WAS JUST ONE HEAVEN AND IT WAS ALL
SMOKE. It is known that smoke is produced only by heat or as a result of fire. This
indicates two things. The forcible disintegration of the entity that produced the heavens
and the earth also produced tremendous amount of heat. The creation of the earth, then
the creation of the heavens started immediately after the forcible disintegration occurred,
that is, there was no time delay between the onset of the forcible disintegration of the
primary entity and the creation of the earth then the heavens. In cited verses 3,
adding the mentioned days for the creation of the earth and the heavens, we find them
EIGHT days. This is seen more clearly in the above presentation of the sequence and
timetable of the creation. In all the verses in the Holy Qur’an that mention the creation of
the heavens and the earth, such as cited verse 2, and all the others, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created the heavens and the earth in six days not eight days. In fact cited verses 3 are the only ones in the Holy Qur’an where ALLAH (SWT) Gave the sequence, the details and the timetable for the creation of the heavens and the earth. This is another pointer to us in order to think and to discover. There must be an overlapping period of two days, where some final events of the earth’s creationtook place simultaneously with the creation of the heavens. The third verse (in Arabic) of cited verses 3 gives such indication. In this verse, when ALLAH (SWT) Proceeded to the heaven while it was smoke and Said to it and to the earth “Come willingly or
unwillingly”, they said “we do come in willing obedience”. That Holy command was an
order from ALLAH (SWT) to the heaven and the earth to start functioning according to
His rules and laws. Their performance is interconnected. That is, for the earth to take its
final form and shape, and to perform properly, the heaven must reach a stage of its
development in order to provide the environment and the requirements needed for the
earth to function in the assigned manner. For instance, the earth can not perform in the
way assigned to it by ALLAH (SWT) without the presence of our solar system (the sun,
the moon and the planets and their moons) and the other celestial objects in the heaven.
In that respect, the following may be concluded :-
DURING THE LAST TWO DAYS OF THE CREATION OF THE EARTH, WHILE
ALLAH (SWT) WAS MAKING ITS SOLID FOUNDATIONS ON TOP OF IT, AND
LAYING IN IT ITS RESOURCES, HE WAS SIMULTANEOUSLY FORMING AND
ARRANGING THE SEVEN HEAVENS TO PERFORM IN CONJUNCTION WITH
THE EARTH ACCORDING TO HIS RULES AND COMMANDS.
In the last verse of cited verses 3, ALLAH (SWT) Says, “… and We Have
Adorned the lowest heaven with lamps (illuminators) and for security, …”. In the Holy
Qur’an ALLAH (SWT) is Talking to mankind. Therefore, the lamps (illuminators) that
adorn the lowest heaven must be visible from the earth. As we all know, the illuminators
that make the night sky so beautiful are the stars. In fact, when we look at the sky, we are
looking at the lowest heaven. This verse gives us three pieces of information.
First, ALL THE STARS THAT WE CAN SEE AND OBSERVE NOW AND IN THE
FUTURE WITH MORE SOPHISTICATED EQUIPMENT ARE IN THE LOWEST
HEAVEN. WHAT WE CALL THE UNIVERSE, IS JUST THE LOWEST HEAVEN
OR A PART OF IT.
Second, the word “lamps” or “illuminators” is used to describe the stars. Lamps or
illuminators emit light due to fire or heat. In these few words, ALLAH (SWT) Gave us
the definition of a star. The star is a celestial object that emits light due to extreme heat
generated within. Generation of the tremendous amount of heat within the star could not
be achieved unless the star is formed of gas. Earlier in this chapter we have learned that
water existed before the creation of the earth and the heavens. Creation of the heavens
and the earth began when ALLAH (SWT) forcibly disintegrated a massive entity. Such
disintegration produced tremendous amount of heat (radiation), solid fragments and huge
clouds of dust. The heat caused the water to be transformed to its gaseous elements,
hydrogen and oxygen. The produced hydrogen and oxygen mixed with the clouds of dust.
The forcible disintegration resulted also in the formation of giant eddies and turbulence
within these clouds. The extreme heat produced by the forcible disintegration caused the
hydrogen atoms to go through a process known as “atomic fusion”. The fusion process
transforms the hydrogen to helium and releases tremendous energy in the form of heat.
The stars are believed to be formed from the swirling motion of the hydrogen
concentrated clouds and the triggering of the fusion process.
The third piece of information that we learn from the last verse of cited verses 3
comes from the word ‘security”. ALLAH (SWT) is Telling us that He Has Created the
stars, not only to make the lowest heaven look beautiful, but also for securing it. The
lowest heaven is a domain. Securing a domain implies two things. Keeping intruders out
of the domain, and to keep things within the domain in order.
It is known that the two major forces that control the dynamics of the universe (the
lowest heaven) are the gravitational force and the electromagnetic force. The
gravitational force controls the motion of matter (mass). The electromagnetic force
controls the transfer of energy, as well as the motion of electrically charged particles. The
stars, due to their ultra-high temperatures generate powerful electromagnetic waves.
Therefore, the stars are producers of both gravitational and electromagnetic forces. The
non-illuminating bodies, such as the planets produce gravitational forces only. In that
respect, the stars have more pronounced effect on the dynamics of the celestial objects
than the non-illuminating bodies (planets, moons, asteroids). The trillions and trillions of
stars and other celestial objects in the universe (the lowest heaven) are in continuous
motions. Their motions are controlled and kept in orderly manner by both the
gravitational and the electromagnetic forces. Therefore, the forces produced by the stars
ensure the continuation of the orderly behaviour of the lowest heaven, that is keeping the
lowest heaven secured as mentioned in cited verses 3. Also. very recently it has been discovered, that stars emit powerful electromagnetic gamma bursts, which are fatal for every form of life. The Devils of the Jinn as well of the humans are therefore able to only go to restricted regions in the lowest heaven (the universe).

Cited Verses 4
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Do not you see how ALLAH Has Created seven heavens one above the other. And Made
the moon a light in them and Made the sun a glorious light source.
(part 29, Surat Nooh “Noah”)

Cited Verse 5
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And We Have Created above you seven layers and We Have not been unmindful of the
creation.
(part 18, Surat Al Mo’menoon “The Believers”)

In cited verse 4, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created seven heavens, one on
top of the other. In cited verse 5, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created above us
seven layers. From these two verses we learn that the seven heavens are defined
territories, each has its own identity. Since ALLAH (SWT) Has Created the earth first
then the heavens, therefore the first heaven is the lowest heaven. The lowest heaven
surrounds the earth from all directions. That is, the lowest heaven is a huge enclosure with a solid border
containing all the stars and the celestial bodies that surround the earth. The second
heaven is a bigger enclosure containing its own territory and surrounding the lowest
heaven. The same for the third heaven and so on, up to the seventh heaven.
The creation proceeded in the outward direction from the earth, because the earth was created first. The earth was created first, then the solar system, then the galaxy (Milky Way). This indicates that our galaxy should be at the center of the universe. This is what Hubble observed at the late 1920’s. However, the astronomers came to false conclusions. They thought that the universe has no center, that every galaxy moves away from every other galaxy. They developed the ballon analogy. The universe should be imagined as a membrane of a ballon pumped up, that is center-less. Very recent observations proved this analogy to be false. It has been discovered very recently, that the expansion of the universe, which is also mentioned in Qur’an in Surat 51; Verse 49, is accelerating at a rate way too high to be explainable by the ballon analogy. The motion of the galaxies away from our galaxy must be unidirectional away from it. By unidirectional, it means that the speeds of the receding galaxies are function of only one variable [f(r)],i.e. function of distance only. This is in accordance with Hubble's law]. According to the Big Bang theory, the motion of the galaxies relative to ours must be function of three variables not one [f(distance, elevation angle, azimuth angle)] which is not the case. Hubble´s law is a proof that the earth was created first!
There has been discovered that there must be a kind of anti-gravitation-source at the outer edge of the universe, which causes the accelerating motion of the galaxies. THIS IS THE SOLID BORDER OF THE LOWEST HEAVEN, mentioned in Qur’an; WHICH IS FORMED OF DARK MATTER AND ATTRACTS THE GALAXIES FROM ALL SIDES. THE NEARER THEY COME TO THE BORDER; THE FASTER THEY GET ATTRACTED.
It has become clear, that the universe must have a center. The false imagination of the universe having no center mainly was and is based on the observation of the NON-FLUCTUATING COSMIC BACKGROUND RADIATION. The radiation is equally spread all over the universe. The astronomers thought, that if the universe had a center, there must be a “hot-spot”, where the heat of the radiation is a bit higher (the point, where the big bang occurred). In fact, the non-fluctuating background radiation is just a proof that the creation processes have ended! The stars formed through the fusion processes of the hydrogen atoms to helium. When the stars were formed, ALLAH (SWT) Caused the extreme heat to vanish, and left only a necessary heat of 3 degrees K (cosmic background radiation).

From the Holy verses of Al-Qur’an we see NO contradiction to science, rather they are explaining the truth and moreover they explain the unexplained phenomena of the location of the dark matter, the accelerating motion of the outer galaxies, the fact that most of the gasses in the universe are hydrogen and helium, the question about the center of the universe, the functions of the stars, and why the cosmic background radiation is non-fluctuating.

From the Verses of Genesis we see several obvious contradictions to science. ALLAH (SWT) Knows the present, the past and the future. HE would never Have made statements of scientific nature in a revelation to mankind, which later turn out to be incorrect. Therefore, the words of Genesis CAN`T be considered as the direct or the inspired word of GOD!
ALLAH (SWT) Has sent down the Quran in order to make the truth clear. The early scribes have explained the six creation days incorrect in Genesis. Therefore, the Qur’an has explained them in a very clear manner, demonstrating the ultimate Knowledge of ALLAH (SWT).
It has to be mentioned that the cosmologists will never be able to find out exactly, what happened in the early universe, because the creation processes occured under other physical laws than those we know today. Their theories are entirely based on ASSUMPTIONS.

The Qur’an is the Word of ALLAH (SWT) and therefore it contains the ultimate truth for all times.

[jcecil3]

LAST EDITED ON 10-12-01 AT 09:45 PM (GMT)[p]Greetings Hassanalmuslim!

I have written elsewhere that I think you are reading modern ideas into ancient texts.

To clarify my position, if what you say were true, the passages you quote would have been so clear that seventh century Muslims would have invented modern physics based on the Qur'an itself.

Allah could have said something like "They say the skies are opened so that the heavens pour down rain. Say: 'This is absurd! We created water to evaporate in steam clouds that condense after they rise. We made gravity to pull all things back down to earth. But the earth circles the sun. There are worlds that circle the sun, and the moon circles the earth. The stars are other suns with other worlds circling them."

If the Qur'an said something that clear, that would be pretty impressive. Still, the ancient Egyptians knew this, so it would not prove that Allah revealed it.

However, my main point is that you are selecting verses that really do not speak to modern science with the clarity you claim.

Rather, we have vague passages that you are choosing to read modern meanings into. The same can be said of the so-called proof of the Qur'an from embryology.

If our science changes, you will change your interpretation of the Qur'an, and the passages are vague enough to allow this. So there is nothing proved by this form of "anachronism" except that the Qur'an is vague when it comes to science.

I do not write this to be rude or obtuse. I think Christian fundamentalist make the same mistake in interpreting Biblical passages. I believe that ancient texts should be read in their historical context. I am more interested in how seventh century Muslims interpreted your passages than how modern Muslims interpret them.

Peace and Blessings!

jcecil3

[hassanalmuslim]

Salaam my brother in mankind.

OK, I try to explain it. First I must say that I don´t think you read my posting thoroughly bacause if you had done so, you should have remarked the following important things:

1.My aim is NOT to prove the Qur’ans validity by showing how it is compatible with modern science. I have interpreted the Qur’an just as it must be done, that is, studying its verses collectively without aim to make them compatible with science! On the contrary, the scientific theories are only credible for us Muslims, if they AGREE WITH THE QURAN, BECAUSE THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF THE CREATOR, WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING!

2.The verses I cited are 100% clear in their meaning. They can’t be interpreted in another way.
I will not ever in my life interpret a verse if I’m not sure of its meaning, because if I interprete it incorrect, I have committed a sin! What we don´t know, we must not tell. I cited only verses which are very clear in their meaning.

You call the Quran an “ancient text”. That’s your opinion. However, I KNOW that it is the Word of the Creator, therefore it IS NOT TO BE HANDLED AS A SIMPLE SCRIPTURE DIRECTED ONLY TO ANCIENTS!
The Quran is ALLAH’s Oord to the people for ALL TIMES. Therefore it must be interpreted very very carefully. Now, you are claiming that I am reading scientific facts into the Quran, where no such fact is mentioned! I don´t know how you came to this conclusion.
If you have doubts for example about the heaven, the Quran in other verses states things like “WE Raised the heavens thickness”, that is, the solid border of the lowest heaven (an enclosure) must be very thick. Big thickness implies huge gravitational force. Then it always, when it talks about the creation of the heaven, states that ALLAH (SWT) Has CONSTRUCTED Or BUILT the heaven. To construct means to build a rigid solid structure. ALLAH (SWT) did not tell that He CONSTRUCTED the stars, because the stars are gaseous and illuminating objects, not solid and dark. Therefore every other celestial objects other than the stars is constructed. The constructed (solid and dark) elements of the lowest heaven are for example the planets, meteoroids and also the solid border of the lowest heaven (universe). Therefore, when the solid border is solid, non-illuminating(that is “dark matter”) and also very thick, it must have a huge gravitational force. This is a very simple conclusion, don’t you agree? And the result of this conclusion is, that we can explain, why the galaxies are moving away from our galaxy with accelerating speeds, which IS NOT EXPLAINED BY ANY MODERN SCIENTIFIC THEORY!

Sorry, but I just don´t get out, which conclusion could be unclear to you. I think all the interpretations are very clear.The Quran contains scientific knowledge which was unknown to its revelation time. This is a fact.
The best proof that I am not trying to make the Quran compatible with science is that I show that it obviously contradicts the commonly accepted Big Bang theory in several points. Let me mention only three for now.

A. The Quran states (for over 1400 years now) explicitely that the earth was formed and designed before the rest of the universe ( that is the earth was formed immediately after the “forcible disintegration” of the entity which joined the heavens and the earth, in the first two creation days). The Big Bang theory says that the earth formed bilions of years after the Big Bang, that is after most of the universe had already developed. The Quran also tells that the creation was completed in a period of 6000 lunar years, while the Big Bang theory says, the earth formed during billions of years. The clear and honest interpretation of the Quran revealed that the earth and the rest of the universe have almost the same age. Now, this is in contradiction with the big bang theory, BUT: 3 years ago Hubble Space Telescope provided images which showed that the earth and the rest of the universe have the same age! This was published on NASA website.

B :The Quran shows that the creation processes proceeded in the outward direction of the earth, because the earth was formed first. This means, the earth was at the center of the universe during the creation days. When the solar system including the earth, started to function (with the end of the six days), the motion of the earth and the solar system (that is, the rotational motion of the galaxy itself) caused the earth to leave the center. That is, our galaxy is the center of the universe. The Big Bang theory claims that the universe doesn´t have a center at all. However, recent observations (only of the past 5 years) showed that the universe MUST have a center (I have mentioned these observations in my posting “The Six Creation days…”). Moreover, the discovering of the unidirectional motion of the galaxies which functions only by the variable of distance, shows that our galaxy is at the center of the universe and averything moves away from it.

C. The Quran clearly states that water existed before the creation of the heavens and the earth. The Big Bang theory claims that every elements formed gradually and all begann with “quarks”. However, the Big Bang theory can only explain HOW water might have formed, but it can not explain, why most of the gasses in the universe are hydrogen and helium (more than 90%). It tries to explain this fact by stating that the heat caused by the big bang SOMEHOW vanished not long after the big bang, so that the fusion processes ceased. The Quran clearly shows, that the “forcible disintegration” caused tremendous heat. It also states that the stars were put into the universe in the last two creation days. This implies, that ALLAH (SWT) caused the heat to vanish after 4 creation days, so the fusion processes stopped and there was a hydrogen-helium concentration. This also exlains why the cosmic background radiation is NON-FLUCTUATING.

Now you state: “To clarify my position, if what you say were true, the passages you quote would have been so clear that seventh century Muslims would have invented modern physics based on the Qur'an itself. “

First, you can not take people’s behaviour as a criterion for the validity of a scripture. Second, the Muslims indeed were extremely advanced in science by the help of the Quran. For example they knew that the earth rotates (stated in Quran), they knew that the earth is moving along an orbit (stated in Quran implicitly), they knew that the earth has spherical shape and so on.
But however, I suggest to you to USE YOUR OWN INTELLECT, not to judge the Quran in a certain way, just because you have no proofs that the early Muslims had indeed advanced scientific knowledge. YOU HAVE A MIND, SO THINK YOURSELF. Even if the earlier Muslims had NEVER really understood the Quran, this would NOT mean that the Quran is unclear!
By the way, what we call “present time” will be “past” tomorrow, next week and in 500 years. So what do you think. If we TODAY don´t try to understand the correct meaning, would then generations in 500 years also think what you are thinking today: “If the Quran was clear, people before 500 years should have comprehended it the same way we now can do having a scientific knowledge, so we don´t have to take it seriously”?

Now I think I should tell you an important information, which you should never forget. I will give you AND ALL OTHER READERS an explanation why the Quran contains scientific knowledge.

-First, it has to be mentioned, that the scientific verses must be grouped into two categories.

1. There are verses, which are very clear. They can be interpreted in just one way. Their correct interpretation leads to an advanced scientific knowledge.
2. There are verses which are not so clear. Their meaning can be grasped only after having reached a certain advance in scientific research. As an example I would take Surat “Tur”, where it states “And the raised ceiling (of the heaven). And by the sea set on fire” The Muslims didn’t understand this verse. They didn´t understand what is meant by the sea set on fire (al bahr al masjour). They thought that maybe the verse is referring to judgement day, when the oceans will be heated up and boil as it is stated in another verse. However, all the oats which are mentioned in the context of the verse are referring to present existing things, such as the mountain Tur, the Quran, the Kaba and the heaven. That is the “sea set on fire” must also be existing at present time. Only in the 1960’s the meaning of the verse has become clear. The sea is subjected to fire at the oceanic ridges, where hot magma is pushed up through the crust into the sea. By such kind of verses, ALLAH (SWT) is demonstrating His absolute knowledge. Mankind should then realise, that all they discover is already Known to the Creator.

Now let me give you the explanations
-why the Quran contains scientific knowledge and how to recognise it
-why the scientific knowledge is not formulated in a manner like:” They say the skies are opened so that the heavens pour down rain. Say: 'This is absurd! We created water to evaporate in steam clouds that condense after they rise. We made gravity to pull all things back down to earth. But the earth circles the sun. There are worlds that circle the sun, and the moon circles the earth. The stars are other suns with other worlds circling them." as you recommended.
( By the way, the Quran explains the formation of rain clouds in a great detail, it also shows that gravity is a feature of the inner part of the earth, it also leads us to the fact that the earth circles the sun, it shows that the moon is circling the earth and it implies that the universe is full of other solar systems)

In some verses of the Holy Qur’an, ALLAH (SWT) Tells mankind to learn, to discover
and to study every thing possible about the earth and the universe. Such knowledge leads
to the efficient utilization of the unlimited resources of the earth. In other verses, ALLAH
(SWT) Has given some clues and pointers about His creation. In a general description,
He Tells how He Created the heavens and the earth and the forms of life. He Gave only
the basics and the fundamentals of His creation without going into the fine details, for
two reasons. The first reason is, to allow the people to think and to discover as much as
their minds can grasp. The second reason is that the human mind is incapable of
comprehending the fine details of ALLAH’s creation.

Cited Verse 1
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And We Have Explained in detail in this Qur’an for the people from every kind of
example and the human was in most things contentious.
(part 15, Surat Al Kahf “The Cave”)

Cited Verse 2
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
It is He Who Sent down to you the book, in it are principle verses, they are the foundation
(the mother) of the book, and others are similar verses, but those in whose hearts is
perversity follow the part thereof that is similar, seeking discord and seeking its meaning,
and no one knows its true meaning except ALLAH, and those who are firmly grounded in
knowledge say, “We believed in it, all from our LORD”, and none will grasp the message
except those with thoughtful minds.
(part 3, Surat Ale-Emran “The Family of Emran”)

In cited verse 1, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Explained to the people from
every example. This means that an example of every thing that touches our life has been
given and explained in the Holy Qur’an. This specific verse tells us humans that the Holy
Qur’an contains all the information and the answers to all our inquiries regarding any
thing that we might think of. The earth is not isolated from the rest of the universe. It is an integral part of the universe and there is a strong interaction between them. Exploration of the earth as well as of the outer space provides us with information that is so vital to our development and progress. That is why the
Holy Qur’an contains verses about the creation of the heavens and the earth.
To show the absolute authority, might and power of ALLAH (SWT), some of the
verses that warn and challenge the unbelievers, are followed by creation verses. In these
creation verses ALLAH (SWT) Describes how He Created the heavens, the earth and
life. The creation verses therefore are not grouped together. They are scattered in
different locations in the Holy Qur’an.
From cited verse 2, we learn two things. The verses of the Holy Qur’an are
classified in two categories, principle verses and similar verses. Some of the creation
verses are principle verses and some are similar verses. The creation principle verses
describe major creation phenomena and are only mentioned once in the Holy Qur’an. The
creation similar verses also describe creation phenomena, but they are repeated in several
Surahs. Some of the similar verses are repeated with the exact wording, and some are
repeated with different wording, but having the same meaning. In order to extract the
correct meaning, ALL the creation verses describing a specific phenomenon must be
scientifically studied and analyzed COLLECTIVELY, not individually.
The other piece of information that we learn from cited verse 2 is that, ONLY
ALLAH (SWT) KNOWS THE EXACT AND PRECISE MEANINGS OF THE VERSES OF
THE HOLY QUR’AN. Those who are extremely knowledgeable strongly believe in the
Holy Qur’an because it came from ALLAH (SWT). Some might argue that if it is only
ALLAH (SWT) Who knows the exact and precise meanings of the verses of the Holy
Qur’an, then why we humans are trying to explain them?. The answer to that is very
simple. In many verses of the Holy Qur’an, ALLAH
(SWT) Encourages us humans to study the Holy Qur’an and to spare no effort in trying to
understand its meanings. The closer we come to the correct interpretation of the Holy
verses, the more insight we will gain in understanding ALLAH’s creation.
In some verses , and in particular the creation verses, there are some words
that could very easily be misinterpreted, even for the Arabic speaking people. In order to
get the correct meaning of such words and therefore, the correct meaning of the verse, we
have to look at other verses in different Surahs, which include such word/s. This is the
only way to extract the precise interpretation of the Qur’anic verses, and in particular the
creation verses.

Thorough study and analysis of the creation verses in the Holy Qur’an together with
the utilization of the latest advances in science and technology are essential factors in
their proper interpretation.
By applying these concepts, new information not known before can be discovered, which provides deeper understanding of some of the creation phenomena. Many of the unexplained phenomena can be explained. Some of the existing developed theories regarding the creation of the universe are proved to be partly credible
and some are not. It must again be emphasized here that the creation processes described in the
Holy Qur’an are the CORRECT ones since they are given by The Creator, ALLAH
(SWT). The success or failure of any theory developed by humans is measured by whether
it coincides with ALLAH’s description or not.
The Holy Qur’an is a linguistic miracle which can be recognized and realized by the
Arabic speaking people. It is also a scientific miracle since it reveals vast and amazing
information about ALLAH’s creation that could never be known to other than the
Creator, ALLAH (SWT). It also reveals information not discovered yet. To emphasize
this fact, we turn our attention the following verse:

Cited Verse 3
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say!, “if all the humans and all the jinns were to gather together to produce alike to this
Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with
help and support”.
(part 15, Surat Al Esra’a “The Travel”)


. In this verse, ALLAH (SWT) is
Stating a fact. The Holy Qur’an is His Holy words. None of His creatures, such as all
mankind and all the jinns could never be able to produce a similar to the Holy Qur’an,
even if they all got together and supported each other.
The following verses present very powerful and convincing statement:

Cited Verses 4
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Behold !, In the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alteration of the night and
the day are indeed signs for those who have thoughtful minds. Those who mention and
praise ALLAH, standing, sitting and laying down on their sides and think deeply about
the creation of the heavens and the earth; our LORD, You Have not Created this for no
purpose, Glory to Thee, give us salvation from the torture of fire.
(part 4, Surat Ale Emran “The Family of Emran”)

From the first
verse we learn that only those who have thoughtful and inquiring minds realize that the
creation of the heavens and the earth and the alteration of the night and the day are signs
of the absolute authority, power and knowledge of ALLAH (SWT). It is only ALLAH
(SWT) Who is capable of such creation and perfection. In the second verse, ALLAH
(SWT) Defines those who have thoughtful minds. They are those who have recognized
the absolute power, might and wisdom of ALLAH (SWT) by looking at His creation. They
always mention and praise ALLAH (SWT) during their daily activities and think deeply
about the creation of the heavens and the earth. They know that the heavens and the earth
were created for a purpose. They want to learn as much as they could about the heavens
and the earth. The more they learn, the more they believe that ALLAH (SWT) is capable
of doing everything. The fear of ALLAH (SWT) becomes deeply embedded into their
hearts and they always ask ALLAH (SWT) to spare them from the unbearable torture of
hell’s fire.
Cited verses 4 show that ALLAH (SWT) Has Placed a requirement on all the
believers. They must try to discover and to learn as much as they could about the heavens
and the earth, guided by the Holy Qur’an. In the Holy Qur’an, ALLAH (SWT) Has given
adequate information as well as clues and pointers that lead to the right direction, to
discover as much as our minds can grasp.
The following fact must always be kept in mind:-
THE HOLY QUR’AN IS THE MAIN AND THE PRIMARY SOURCE OF THE
RELIABLE AND CORRECT INFORMATION ABOUT ALLAH’S CREATION. THE
CORRECT AND TRUE SAYINGS (AHADEETH) OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD
(s.a.w.) ARE THE SUPPLEMENTARY SOURCES.

Cited Verse 5
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, walk through the earth and see how the creation began, so will ALLAH Produce a
later creation, for ALLAH is Capable of doing everything.
(part 20, Surat Al Ankaboot “The Spider”)

ALLAH (SWT) Gave us humans, mind to think, to discover and to learn. He Wants us
to study His creation. Knowledge of even just the elementary principles of ALLAH’s
laws of creation benefits mankind in so many ways. All inventions that mankind has been able to conceive are based on some knowledge of ALLAH’s laws of nature. In cited verse 5, ALLAH (SWT) is Telling us to explore every part of the earth. In doing so, we will be able to understand how the creation began. It is an invitation from ALLAH
(SWT) to all mankind to study everything and every phenomenon that we can see and
observe. Such study leads to the invention of the right tools and equipment to improve
our way of life. Knowing how the creation began, gives us the ability to understand how
things evolved. Knowledge of the past evolution gives us crucial information for
planning for the future more wisely. Also, in searching for an answer to how the creation
began, we come closer to realize the Might of ALLAH (SWT) and that He is Capable of
doing everything.

Cited Verse 6
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And amongst the people and the wild and the domestic animals are of various colors, and so who truly fear ALLAH from His subjects are the people of knowledge (the scientists), for ALLAH is Exalted in Might and Grants forgiveness.
(part 22, Surat Faater “The Originator of Creation”)

In cited verse 6, ALLAH (SWT) Says that those who truly fear Him are the
people of knowledge (the scientists). In all branches of science, the more knowledge a
researcher accumulates, the more he or she becomes convinced that there must be a
supreme source of power and authority that is capable of such creation. Realization of
this fact, leads one to believe in ALLAH (SWT) and fears Him.
The cited verses are convincing and powerful evidence
showing that the true believers in ALLAH (the mo’menoon) bear the responsibility of
educating themselves and seeking all kinds of knowledge. The solemn duty of a nation of mo’menoon is to build a highly educated society and to provide the adequate facilities for promoting all kinds of scientific research.
In the Holy Qur’an, ALLAH (SWT) Says that all what is in the heavens and the earth
belong to Him. He Knows what we say, what we do and what we conceal. He created us humans and He Knows the capability and the limitations of the human mind. All the
scientific advances that mankind can achieve, whether now or in the future, are only
those which ALLAH (SWT) Permits us to know. We humans must be grateful to Him for
letting us discover some of the physical laws, which He Created. The modern inventions
which made our life a lot easier, yet more complicated, are based on such discoveries.

I hope you understood everything. I wish that ALLAH (SWT) Guides us all to the right path.

By the way, I want to add something more. I am quite new in this forum and I am highly surprised of the well-educated and friendly, not insulting or aggressive postings by most of the muslims and christians here. This is found very rarely on the internet.

Salaam

[JBJ]

Hello Hassanalmuslim,

I'm pressed for time now, but I will certainly respond to all the details of your post in time. I hope you'll do the same to each of mine.

Yes, I greatly agree that this forum is kindly absent of the many obscenities plaguing the internet even on Muslim and Christian sites. Salaam!

JBJ

[jcecil3]

LAST EDITED ON 11-12-01 AT 11:27 PM (GMT)[p]Greetings Again Hassanalmuslim!

>Salaam my brother in mankind.

Thank you for calling me your brother. I am honored by this sign of fellowship and respect.

>
>2.The verses I cited are 100%
>clear in their meaning. They
>can’t be interpreted in another
>way.
>I will not ever in my
>life interpret a verse if
>I’m not sure of its
>meaning, because if I interprete
>it incorrect, I have committed
>a sin! What we don´t
>know, we must not tell.
>I cited only verses which
>are very clear in their
>meaning.
>

Perhaps they are clearer in the context of other verses, or in the Arabic. To me they do not seem as unambiguous as you say.

>If you have doubts for example
>about the heaven, the Quran
>in other verses states things
>like “WE Raised the heavens
>thickness”, that is, the solid
>border of the lowest heaven
>(an enclosure) must be very
>thick. Big thickness implies huge
>gravitational force.

What I am saying is that the text, as you translate it, ONLY says "We raised the heavens in thickness." But then you go on to add all kinds of interpretation about what that means. You may be right, but I am curious about whether Muslims interpreted the text the way you do 1,400 years ago. You state yourself that it was intended for people of all time. So, before people knew about gravitational force, how did they interpret this?

>Then it always,
>when it talks about the
>creation of the heaven, states
>that ALLAH (SWT) Has CONSTRUCTED
>Or BUILT the heaven. To
>construct means to build a
>rigid solid structure. ALLAH (SWT)
>did not tell that He
>CONSTRUCTED the stars, because the
>stars are gaseous and illuminating
>objects, not solid and dark.
>Therefore every other celestial objects
>other than the stars is
>constructed. The constructed (solid and
>dark) elements of the lowest
>heaven are for example the
>planets, meteoroids and also the
>solid border of the lowest
>heaven (universe). Therefore, when the
>solid border is solid, non-illuminating(that
>is “dark matter”) and also
>very thick, it must have
>a huge gravitational force. This
>is a very simple conclusion,
>don’t you agree?

Actually, I do not really agree or disagree. I just do not see how you came to conclusion that the passages you site are clearly talking about stars, meteriorites, gravitational forces, etc...Maybe you're right, but I don't see it in the passages you quote, nor did it strike me when I read the Qur'an straight through for the first time last month.

>And the
>result of this conclusion is,
>that we can explain, why
>the galaxies are moving away
>from our galaxy with accelerating
>speeds, which IS NOT EXPLAINED
>BY ANY MODERN SCIENTIFIC THEORY!
>
>
>Sorry, but I just don´t get
>out, which conclusion could be
>unclear to you. I think
>all the interpretations are very
>clear.The Quran contains scientific knowledge
>which was unknown to its
>revelation time. This is a
>fact.
>The best proof that I am
>not trying to make the
>Quran compatible with science is
>that I show that it
>obviously contradicts the commonly accepted
>Big Bang theory in several
>points. Let me mention only
>three for now.
>

In all three of your points (A,B, and C, which I did not recopy), I agree that you are saying that Qur'an was opposed to big bang theory. We have no argument about these points based on the texts. I will have to check out your assertion that NASA says the earth is the center of the universe. That doesn't sound right to me, but I'm not a scientist, so who knows?


>
> Now you state: “To clarify
>my position, if what you
>say were true, the passages
>you quote would have been
>so clear that seventh century
>Muslims would have invented modern
>physics based on the Qur'an
>itself. “
>
>First, you can not take people’s
>behaviour as a criterion for
>the validity of a scripture.

I think you misunderstand what I was trying to say. I do not mean that people's behavior verify the text. Rather, I mean that IF the Qur'an, or the Bible, or any religious literature truly contained a new scientific theory at the time it was written, both believer and non-believer would be anxious to check out that theory. After all, if the new theory pans out, the believer has proof of his religion. If it does not, the non-believer has proof of the false claims. What I think we find with BOTH the Bible and the Qur'an, however, is that those who hear or read the messages seem to have understood them as referring to world-views they already held. Correct me if I am wrong about how Muslims interpreted these passages 1,400 years ago.

>Second, the Muslims indeed were
>extremely advanced in science by
>the help of the Quran.
>For example they knew that
>the earth rotates (stated in
>Quran), they knew that the
>earth is moving along an
>orbit (stated in Quran implicitly),
>they knew that the earth
>has spherical shape and so
>on.

I suspected this, though it was not something I personally researched. It just seemed to me that that I had read that both the Egyptians and Babylonians had advanced astronomy, and it would seem logical that some or all of this knowledge would have passed on to the Arabic people.

>But however, I suggest to you
>to USE YOUR OWN INTELLECT,
>not to judge the Quran
>in a certain way, just
>because you have no proofs
>that the early Muslims had
>indeed advanced scientific knowledge. YOU
>HAVE A MIND, SO THINK
>YOURSELF. Even if the earlier
>Muslims had NEVER really understood
>the Quran, this would NOT
>mean that the Quran is
>unclear!

Well, here we have a disagreement about how to interpret texts. You see, as a believing Christian, I am not at all interested in how some "creation scientist" tries to reconcile the six day Genesis account of creation with modern science. There are Christians who try to do this, but I think they sometimes perform violence to the text.

I do not believe the ancient authors knew a lick about how the world came to be, nor do I think they cared. I realize that you are discussing the Qur'an, but I'm more familiar with the Bible, so be patient while I make my point...

So, I believe that the true religious meaning of Genesis -- the meaning intended by God -- is the meaning that made sense to the human authors at the time it was written. The Book of Genesis opens with a poem written with metre and rythm and "chiactic structure". Each line ends with the phrase, "God saw,...and God said it was good." God creates the world from an "abyss". God hovers over the "abyss", which in Hebrew is the name of a Babylonian god of chaos spelled back-wards. The God of Genesis is not a god of chaos, but a more powerful God who creates order through his word. The creation progresses from lowest to highest, with man (specifically woman) being last! All creation is called good (a new concept that Canaanite and Babylonian religion did not believe).

This whole story is a poetic hymn to the goodness of creation! The poem was never meant to be taken literally, as the sun (the measure of a day) was not created till the fourth day! The structure of seven days is meant to explain the Sabbath rest.

None of this text is meant to be science, and the ancients did not read it as a science textbook. Saint Augustine wrote in the fourth century (1,400 years before Darwin) that the Bible "Was written to tell us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go." Jewish rabbis recognized this as well. If I try to read modern science into this text, I completely miss the point intended by the author and by God.

Maybe in heaven, I will discover that Genesis was consistent with science. But even if it is, that was not how people intepreted genesis before modern science. Therefore, the more eternal meaning that everyone can glean from the text is the poetic meaning that requires no scientific knowledge. This is the meaning gleaned from reading the text in its historic context.

Now, I am suggesting that when you read the Qur'an ignoring its historical context, you may be misinterpreting it. You may miss the point Allah wishes to reveal. Just a suggestion.....

>By the way, what we call
>“present time” will be “past”
>tomorrow, next week and in
>500 years. So what do
>you think. If we TODAY
>don´t try to understand the
>correct meaning, would then generations
>in 500 years also think
>what you are thinking today:
>“If the Quran was clear,
>people before 500 years should
>have comprehended it the same
>way we now can do
>having a scientific knowledge, so
>we don´t have to take
>it seriously”?
>

I believe the Qur'an CAN be read in it's historical context and still have deep significance and meaning. Of course, I haven't studied it enough to point out that meaning -- but I start with this presumption. I would suggest that that there are likely to be hadith written in early Islam that shed a different light on the passages you quote that may be very meaningful today. I do not know the hadithy tradition, but I'm pretty sure that SOMEONE over 1,400 took the time to write a decent commentary on these verses that makes no reference to a scientific theory that is disputable. What do you think?

I think that all I have written suffices. Let me know if there is anything that does not make sense to you.

Peace and blessings!

jcecil3

[hassanalmuslim]

Salaam jcecil3.

I think, the reason why we can’t agree is, that you are thinking that

-the Quranic science should have been discovered before
-the people before have interpreted EVERY verse no matter what
-the Quran primarily addresses the pagan arabs

Let me tell you just some words to explain. The Quran is addressed to all mankind. We don’t know when Judgement day arrives, so maybe we today are only a tiny fraction of the time from the revelation of Qur’an till The End of times. People in 10000 years might talk of us in 2001 as primitive people, who lived “not very long after the revelation of Quran” (everything is relative…).
I want to say the following: We are NOW at a time when we have achieved a certain scientific knowledge by using our MINDs, which ALLAH (SWT) Gave us to discover His creation (see posting above), that we are able to conclude facts from Quran which people before could not do. The people before interpreted the Quranic “heavens” just the same way we do today- because the concept is clear in Quran. However, WE today can make conclusions from it which the ancients could not make. We know today that great masses have a huge gravitational force. Therefore we simply conclude that the solid border of the lowest heaven(universe), which is described in Quran in many verses with words like “roof”, “ceiling” “thickness” and so on, must have a huge gravitational force, because it surrounds everything in the universe from all directions and moreover its great thickness is emphasized in Quran. This is a simple conclusion for us today, don’t you agree? Based on this simple conclusion we can develop a “theory” (for us Muslims it is the certain truth) which explains many unexplained phenomena in the field of cosmology and astronomy and also finds support in certain observations which are not compatible with the big bang theory.

The unexplained phenomena which can now be explained are:
-the accelerating expansion of the universe
-the unidirectional motion of the galaxies (universe has a center)
-the location of most of the dark matter (every non-illuminating matter is dark matter)
-the explanation of the measured gravitational force at the outer edge of the universe

Please notice that I did NOT say that the earth is at the center of the universe, nor did I say that NASA said that! It isn’t! It can’t be because it is constantly moving! I said our galaxy should be at or near the center of the universe, because the motions of the other galaxies are unidirectional away from our galaxy, which, by the way, is not common knowledge. Maybe our galaxy is not exactly at the center, but just very close to it (it could be moving slowly, if the gravitational force of the solid border of the universe has a slight impact on it).

As you are so curious about the interpretations of the ancients (which is, I think, based on your belief that every revelation ONLY addresses to the people at and shortly after its revelation time) I will say you one thing for explanation.
The muslims always interpreted the Quran very carefully. They knew their limits. They always knew that the universe has a solid border, but the time to make conclusions of this has come just after achieving a certain basic knowledge of ALLAH’s creation and the physical laws made by Him.
There are SO MANY scientific verses which have never been interpreted fully, because the people simply didn’t understand them (as an example see my posting above mentioning the “sea set on fire”). They left them for later generations. PLEASE DO NOT THINK THAT THE WHOLE QURAN HAS ALWAYS BEEN INTERPRETED, RIGHT FROM ITS BEGINNING!

Regarding genesis you state:” None of this text is meant to be science, and the ancients did not read it as a science textbook”
Well it does not have to be science. It should simply be CORRECT because you are saying it comes from God, and why should God teach something wrong about his creation? He knows what we will discover later, so why should He confuse us with statements which will later turn out to be incorrect?
The same goes for the statement that the rabbit chews the cud. This is simply incorrect and is indeed no deep science. (You know which passage I’m talking about, don’t you?)

Salaam!

[jcecil3]

LAST EDITED ON 12-12-01 AT 07:30 PM (GMT)[p]Greetings once again Hassanalmuslim!

I apologize that I said that you said the earth was the center of the universe, when you actually said that the galaxy is close to the center. Forgive me. You are correct that IF NASA holds any position placing our galaxy close to the center, it is a little known position. I am not a scientist, but from what I remember in university physics, our galaxy was said to be far from the center. But that was a class based on theories in the 1980's, and science advances. You may be right, but I don't want to argue about modern physics. I'm not qualified to speak about science in more than broad generalities.

Regarding what you said about how I interpret texts: I did NOT say that the authors only address people of their own time. Rather, what I meant to say is that the intend of the author as understood by the people of that time is the PRIMARY meaning that has eternal and universal significance. I used an example of Genesis.

There are fellow Christians who try to make the first day of creation ("Let there be light") mean the big bang. Then they try to figure out on which day dinasours existed, etc...To me, this is foolishness. As you point out, the big bang theory may be false. Thus, these Christians miss the real point of Genesis by trying to read a modern scientific theory into the text when the author never intended it.

The reading I provide for Genesis' six day creation is true for all time. It was true fro ancient Isreal. It is true today. It will be true to my children's children.

It is true for all times that one God created the world,...,that the God of the Bible is not a god of chaos,..., that the God of the Bible triumphed in gaining worshipers over the false god of chaos worshiped by Babylon and Canaan,..., that creation is good,...,that humanity is the height of creation,..., that humanity images God,..., etc....

The interpretation I make is one that seems to match the very words of the text, as well as the historical and literary context in which the text was written.

Yet, everything I write is as true today as it was thousands of years ago. My ancestors and I can glean the exact same meaning from the text. And 10,000 years from now (if the world doesn't end first), my descendants can glean the same meaning from the same text.

But if I attempt to read a modern scientific theory into the text, it may seem plausible today, but will cause a crisis in faith for my descendants if that scientific theory changes. The theory will likely change, because science always changes with new evidence.

However, the historical and literary context of a text does not change, since history is already done. Thus, with ALL religious documents, I think the best way to get the meaning intended by the author or by God is to read the text in its historic and literary context. Looking at how the earliest commentators interpreted a text can help with this. So can looking at how words and phrases were used in other literature from the same time period. Archeology can help. Traditions within the religion can help. Early translations into other languages can help, and so forth.

Bottom line, I am not at all trying to say the Qur'an is false. I AM suggesting that your method of intepretation of the Qur'an strikes me as a method of interpretation that can lead to error.

If we assume that the Qur'an IS Allah's word for all time, then the interpretation that Allah intended cannot be based on scientific theories that arose after the text was written, and may be proven false tomorrow. I am suggesting that your method of interpretation may lead you away from understanding what Allah hoped to reveal. Assuming Allah revealed the Qur'an, there must be an eternal interpretation that both your ancestors could have derived, and your descendants will derive. That is the interpretation you should seek as primary.

Peace and Blessing!

jcecil3

[JBJ]

LAST EDITED ON 13-12-01 AT 03:03 AM (GMT)[p]LAST EDITED ON 13-12-01 AT 02:58*AM (GMT)

Hi Hassanalmuslim,

I'm going to respond now, hopefully to your whole article if I have time. I agree that Jcecil is wrong in saying that because Muslims didn't interpret all these scientific concepts out of the Qur'an the concepts aren't there. They certainly could have missed them, just as Jews missed prophecies about Jesus such as his death and divinity.

You said in a later post that everything you interpret is the only possible interpretation, and Jcecil disagreed. Therefore, I'll show that there are other ways to interpret these verses in ways without showing scientific miracles.

You started by talking about the creation story in Genesis, the Torah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that this part of the Torah was taking in pagan ideas by saying God "separated the light from the dark." I don't see any connection between the two ideas. But if there was, it would only mean the two ideas are similar, not that the Torah's was taken from the pagan.

Then you say, "we know today, that rain doesn´t fall because God opens gaps in the heaven to let the above water fall." That is true, and the Torah doesn't disagree. You also say that a firmament is a solid dome, which is false. A firmament has an arch shape, it is not a dome. You also said there is no difference between the sun and moon's light, that is also false, it says one is greater and the other is lesser. I also fail to see the point of mentioning any of that which doesn't contradict science.

Then you say that "to rest" means to feel tired. This interpretation is about 1400 years old. If you want to be scientific, "to rest" means "to be without motion," and God was without motion on the seventh day. In physics, by computer is at rest right now, but it isn't tired. You merely pulled the word to mean what it doesn't.

21.30Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together in one entity, then We forcibly Disintegrated them, and We Made from water every living thing, do not they then believe?

ALLAH (SWT) Has Associated the beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth, with the identification of water as the main substance of life.

No, it doesn't mean "the main substance." It mean "part or all of the substance." Arabs at Muhammad's time certainly knew all animals were made partly of water. The Qur'an also says man is made from clay, from sand, from dirt, and from mud. Yes, God made everything "from water" also from solids as the Qur'an says.

And it is He Who Created the heavens and the earth in six days and His Throne was on the water, to test you which of you has better deeds, and if you said that you will indeed be resurrected after the death, the unbelievers would be sure to say, “this is nothing but powerful sorcery."

First, you said English only gives "general meaning." Out of curiousity, what concepts, that is, scientific meaning, does the Arabic display in this verse that English does not. Then you said:

In cited verse 2, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created the
heavens and the earth in six days and His Throne WAS on the water. Using the past tense “WAS”, indicates that water was present before the creation of the heavens and the earth (Recent observations support the presence of water at the beginning of creation). The presence of water before the forcible disintegration of the primary (massive) entity that was joining the heavens and the earth, suggests that WATER MIGHT HAVE CONTRIBUTED SOMEHOW TO THE ONSET OF THIS FORCIBLE DISINTEGRATION. For years it has been recognized that water contains the most powerful energy source (hydrogen and oxygen). Recent scientific studies have shown that unlimited energy may be extracted from water by a process called “cold fusion”. However, successful realization of such techniques has not been accomplished yet.

First, the verse doesn't mean water was present before the separation, you're reading into it. It only means water was present at or before. But the Torah also tells us this, so the idea was present even before the Qur'an. Second, you say the water was joining heaven and earth, but the verse doesn't say this at all. Third, the verse may mean water was the source of the separation, or not, there's no way to interpret either way. Fourth, oxygen is not an energy source. Fifth, cold fusion was a hoax exposed many years ago, there's no such thing. I would be more careful of the sources you used to find this information.

The forcible disintegration of the massive entity must have produced fragments of all sizes as well as huge clouds of dust.

Why do you assume that? Why couldn't God separate them without dust? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not.

The forcible disintegration also must have generated tremendous heat (radiation) that caused some of the water to break down to its elements, hydrogen and oxygen.

Why do you assume that? Why couldn't God separate them without heat? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not.

The hydrogen and the oxygen were then incorporated with the
huge clouds of dust.

Why do you assume that? Why couldn't God separate them without incorporating them? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not.

Do you see a patern? It's the pattern of interpreting things not there, just as Jcecil said.

When hydrogen is subjected to extreme heat, reactions known as
“atomic fusion” occur. The fusion process releases tremendous amount of energy in the form of heat and transforms hydrogen to helium (such process occurs in the sun, and in most of all other stars). It has been discovered that hydrogen and helium are the most dominant gases in the universe.

This seems pretty irrelevant.

During the six days of creation, the rotation of the earth about itself, which defines the length of the day was not fully established.

I don't see that in the verse at all.

Accordingly, the six days of creation are meant to be six days in the sight of ALLAH (SWT), NOT earth days .

I don't see that. I've never seen day (yawm) translated that way either.

A day in the sight of ALLAH (SWT) is equivalent to one thousand of our lunar years. The following may then be concluded:-

Where does the Qur'an talk about lunar years?

Qur'anSay, is it that you deny Him Who Created the earth in two days and do you make equals to Him, He is The LORD of all worlds. And He Made solid foundations on top of it, and Bestowed blessings on it and established in it all its resources in four days in accordance with the needs of those who seek sustenance. He then Proceeded to the heaven while it had been smoke, and Said to it and to the earth, “come willingly or unwillingly”, they said, “we do come in willing obedience”. He then Arranged them seven heavens in two days, and He Assigned to each heaven its function and command, and We Adorned the lowest heaven with lamps (illuminators) and for security, this is the design of The Exalted in might the full of knowledge.

If you could include your references more clearly I'd appreciate it. I couldn't find the reference for this one.

ALLAH (SWT) Made solid foundations (the lithosphere plates, NOT “mountains” !)

Why not mountains?

commanded it and the earth to follow His rules.

The earth isn't mentioned in this part of the verse.

ALSO WE LEARN FROM THESE VERSES THAT ALL EARTH RESOURCES ARE
LOCATED WITHIN THE SOLID FOUNDATIONS AND ABOVE.

The verse says "established in it." "It" may refer to the foundations or it may refer back to "the earth" which would be nothing unknown.

It is known that smoke is produced only by heat or as a result of fire.

Again, why do you assume that? Why couldn't God create smoke without heat? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not. This then makes your next couple sentences irrelevant.

That is, for the earth to take its final form and shape, and to perform properly, the heaven must reach a stage of its development in order to provide the environment and the requirements needed for the earth to function in the assigned manner.

Why do you assume that? Why couldn't God make the earth function without the heavens? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not. This also makes your next couple sentences irrelevant.

In these few words, ALLAH (SWT) Gave us the definition of a star. The star is a celestial object that emits light due to extreme heat generated within.

There's nothing about heat, and everyone knew stars give light.

Generation of the tremendous amount of heat within the star could not be achieved unless the star is formed of gas.

I'm no geologist, but I know there's tremendous heat within the earth, the outer core is melted into liquid, but the earth isn't made of gas.

The forcible disintegration resulted also in the formation of giant eddies and turbulence within these clouds.

Why do you assume that? Why couldn't God separate heaven and earth without giant eddies? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not.

The non-illuminating bodies, such as the planets produce gravitational forces only.

Actually, planets also have magnetic forces also. That last quote of yours comes from a big chunk of text where you discuss some astronomy, yet none of this is explaned or even hinted of in the cited verse. Why did you put it all in? You say the verse means the heaven were to keep intruders out and to keep order, but nothing you talk about connects with either of those until the last sentence about jinn.

71.15,16Do not you see how ALLAH Has Created seven heavens one above the other. And Made the moon a light in them and Made the sun a glorious light source.

If you want to be literal, then what does "above" mean? It would mean the second heaven is on top of the first, but this conflicts with everything we know about the universe, because the earth is not at the bottom. If God meant literal interpration here, he would have said "one around the other."

It has been discovered very recently, that the expansion of the universe, which is also mentioned in Qur’an in Surat 51; Verse 49, is accelerating at a rate way too high to be explainable by the ballon analogy.

I have no idea where you got this from. 51.49 says, "And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful." I think you're mixing up your miracle statements.

The motion of the galaxies away from our galaxy must be unidirectional away from it. By unidirectional, it means that the speeds of the receding galaxies are function of only one variable ,i.e. function of distance only. This is in accordance with Hubble's law.

Again I'm not an physicist, but I remember reading an article last year saying that the acceleration of galaxies isn't explained by the Law of Gravitation (speed inversely proportional to distance) which means there's more than one variable. It may be that Hubbel's law is outdated, it has been around for a long time, but then I'm not sure.

Hubble´s law is a proof that the earth was created first!

But the Qur'an doesn't say this. It says the heaven and earth were separated. If two things separate, they each attain their own identity the instant they become apart, meaning the earth and heaven were each created at the same instant.

But really, what does this have to do with your cited verses? You're explaining things in science, but nothing about the Qur'an.

There has been discovered that there must be a kind of anti-gravitation-source at the outer edge of the universe, which causes the accelerating motion of the galaxies. THIS IS THE SOLID BORDER OF THE LOWEST HEAVEN, mentioned in Qur’an;

I don't know what in the Qur'an you're refering to, you haven't quoted it, but I think it could easily refer to the sky.

THE SOLID BORDER OF THE LOWEST HEAVEN, mentioned in Qur’an; WHICH IS FORMED OF DARK MATTER AND ATTRACTS THE GALAXIES FROM ALL SIDES. THE NEARER THEY COME TO THE BORDER; THE FASTER THEY GET ATTRACTED.

Here you've contradicted your own words. Before you said the "solid border" was a kind of anti-gravity, now you're the closer the galaxies, the faster they're attracted which is gravity. You go on talking about radiation which has nothing to do with anything you've cited from the Qur'an.

The Qur'an doesn't say cosmic radiation is non-fluctuating, it doesn't even say there's a center. If two people on roller skates pushed against each other, they'd separate, just like in the Qur'an. Yet one isn't the center of the other, both move leaving their center where they moved from. Valid interpretation, no miracle.

In conclusion, the Qur'an says nothing but a vague description of creation. The Torah does the same.

Neither one contradicts science, they are meant to poetically display God's majesty and power. Trying to stretch their meaning only fools readers and ourselves. Not only that, but it would disprove the Qur'an! Look back at 71.16. It says "the moon a light in them (the heavens)." If we take it literally, it means that the moon is among the heavens. You said the first heaven is the universe, and "The second heaven is a bigger enclosure containing its own territory and surrounding the lowest
heaven. The same for the third heaven and so on, up to the seventh heaven." So for the moon to be in the heavens, it must be somewhere between the first heaven and the seventh heaven, that is, outside the universe. But that's pure nonsense! Don't say

HE would never Have made statements of scientific nature in a revelation to mankind, which later turn out to be incorrect. Therefore, the words of Genesis CAN`T be considered as the direct or the inspired word of GOD!

You prove your own Book wrong by doing it. So go on! Or look at 18.86, "the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea." This is not even poetic, it's part of the narrative of Zulqarnain. Should we say the Qur'an is wrong, that this story never happened, that God is lying?! You can if you like. Even in such an extreme example, I would not disqualify your Book, though you disqualify mine for much smaller problems than this. Instead I would say that God has purpose in everything he says, whether it be scientificly or historicaly true or not.

I agree that the Word of God contains the ultimate truth for all times. Yet the ultimate truth is not of astronomy or embryology. Just as Jesus said, "I am the truth." But that's me.

Salaam!

JBJ

[JBJ]

Hassanalmuslim,

I'm a little confused now as to what your purpose of this posting was. You say it wasn't to confirm the Qur'an, but I don't know why else you'd be writing all this. Thanks.

JBJ

[hassanalmuslim]

Salaam Brother

First I want to say that I don’t think that jcecil3 reads my postings carefully because
-he says that I have stated NASA holds the belief of the galaxy being at or near the center of the universe while I have just stated that 3 years ago NASA published images obtained by Hubble Space telescope which showed that the earth and the rest of the universe almost have the same age, which is contrary to the big bang theory. You can not say something like: “NASA thinks…” At NASA there are the most different kinds of researchers. Some still follow the big bang theory, many have other views. I am in contact via email with a retired space engineerer who is sure that our galaxy is at or near the center, that the universe HAS a center and that that the universe must have a solid border formed from anti-gravitational dark matter.

-he still has not understood that I am not reading modern theories into the Quran, rather I am developing the truth out of the Quran itself! NO ONE has developed the theory stating that the universe has a solid border of dark matter, before the Quran! Only the Quran expresses this fact, by which we can explain so much unsolved riddles in space. NO ONE has ever thought that water existed right from the start, that is just after the big bang. ONLY the Qur’an points to this fact, by which we can explain the current hydrogen-helium concentration.

OK, I hope that YOU will read my posting now very carefully, because I will make every effort to answer your questions and doubts as clearly as possible.

I will cite you and then respond.

1.” Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that this part of the Torah was taking in pagan ideas by saying God "separated the light from the dark." I don't see any connection between the two ideas. But if there was, it would only mean the two ideas are similar, not that the Torah's was taken from the pagan.“

ANSWER: I didn’t explicitly tell that the cited part of the torah was taking in pagan ideas. What I am saying is, that the statement is FIRST incorrect and SECOND it is similar to some pagan beliefs, which could be an explanations how it found its way into the torah.

2.” "we know today, that rain doesn´t fall because God opens gaps in the heaven to let the above water fall." That is true, and the Torah doesn't disagree. You also say that a firmament is a solid dome, which is false. A firmament has an arch shape, it is not a dome. You also said there is no difference between the sun and moon's light, that is also false, it says one is greater and the other is lesser. I also fail to see the point of mentioning any of that which doesn't contradict science.“

ANSWER: Your statement about the torah not disagreeing it, needs no big discussion. However, can you provide me with references of torah which explain how rain is formed?
Everybody sees that the sun’s light is greater, that is more intense than the moon’s light. However, it is not expressed that only the sun produces its own light. In combination with the verse “separated the light from the dark.” which clearly shows that light and darkness should be two independent entities, the only possible solution would be the one I explained.
3.” Then you say that "to rest" means to feel tired. This interpretation is about 1400 years old. If you want to be scientific, "to rest" means "to be without motion," and God was without motion on the seventh day. In physics, by computer is at rest right now, but it isn't tired. You merely pulled the word to mean what it doesn't.”

ANSWER: So we agree that God doesn’t feel tired?

4. “No, it doesn't mean "the main substance." It mean "part or all of the substance." Arabs at Muhammad's time certainly knew all animals were made partly of water. The Qur'an also says man is made from clay, from sand, from dirt, and from mud. Yes, God made everything "from water" also from solids as the Qur'an says.”
ANSWER: The main substance of man is water. ALLAH (SWT) Has created man from clay, which is a mixture of water and dust from the earth.

5.” First, the verse doesn't mean water was present before the separation, you're reading into it. It only means water was present at or before. But the Torah also tells us this, so the idea was present even before the Qur'an. Second, you say the water was joining heaven and earth, but the verse doesn't say this at all. Third, the verse may mean water was the source of the separation, or not, there's no way to interpret either way.

ANSWER: The verse does indeed mean that water was present before the disintegration. This can be clearly seen from the arabic wording and grammar, but I think, also the english version makes it clear by using the human sense of logic. ALLAH (SWT) Says that His Throne Was on the water. The disintegration is just a moment of less than one second. Why should the throne be on water for one second, while ALLAH (SWT) disintegrated the entity of the heavens and the earth? Also, the throne can’t have been on water after the disintegration, because ALLAH’s Throne is ABOVE His Creation, not within! (see posting “WHO ALLAH(SWT) REALLY IS”)

6.” The forcible disintegration of the massive entity must have produced fragments of all sizes as well as huge clouds of dust.
why do you assume that? Why couldn't God separate them without dust? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not.

ANSWER: ALLAH (SWT) Has described the disintegration as a physical event. Therefore, we humans can conclude things from it, because we have experience with physical events, such as disintegrations. When you disintegrate a huge solid concentrated substance (in this case the matter for the creation), normally dust forms. The conclusion is based on the human sense of logic and the later cited verses, where ALLAH(SWT) Says He Proceeded to the heaven while it was smoke. Therefore, the dust is in the form of smoke.

7.”The forcible disintegration also must have generated tremendous heat (radiation) that caused some of the water to break down to its elements, hydrogen and oxygen.
Why do you assume that? Why couldn't God separate them without heat? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not.”

ANSWER: First, as explained above, based on the human sense of logic, we know that smoke is produced from heat. Moreover, the arabic word for smoke “dukhan” defines a substance of tiny particles which is HOT.

8. The hydrogen and the oxygen were then incorporated with the
huge clouds of dust.
Why do you assume that? Why couldn't God separate them without incorporating them? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not.

ANSWER: Well, this conclusion is based on the human sense of logic and the fact that ALLAH(SWT) Has described the creation processes as physical events. When two substances of tiny particles meet, they mix. However, it is not important whether the gasses were incorporated or not. The further conclusions aren’t based on this fact.

9.”Do you see a patern? It's the pattern of interpreting things not there, just as Jcecil said. “

ANSWER: I am not interpreting things which aren’t there. I use the sense of logic. Why should I conclude from the fact that the forcible disintegration produced smoke, that it did NOT produce heat? This would be against the sense of logic.ALLAH(SWT) Has invited us tostudy Both the Quran and the heavens and the earth carefully by using our MIND.

10.”When hydrogen is subjected to extreme heat, reactions known as
“atomic fusion” occur. The fusion process releases tremendous amount of energy in the form of heat and transforms hydrogen to helium (such process occurs in the sun, and in most of all other stars). It has been discovered that hydrogen and helium are the most dominant gases in the universe.
This seems pretty irrelevant.“

ANSWER: It has been discovered that hydrogen and helium are the most dominant gasses. It has not been explained WHY by any theory. It has been concluded that the heat which the big bang produced must have vanished not long after the big bang so that the fusion processes didn’t continue and stopped at a hydrogen-helium concentration The Quran implies that the heat lasted till the last two creation days, when ALLAH (SWT) adorned the lowest heaven with stars. Therefore, the fusion processes ceased at that time.

11.” During the six days of creation, the rotation of the earth about itself, which defines the length of the day was not fully established.
I don't see that in the verse at all.
Accordingly, the six days of creation are meant to be six days in the sight of ALLAH (SWT), NOT earth days .
I don't see that. I've never seen day (yawm) translated that way either.
A day in the sight of ALLAH (SWT) is equivalent to one thousand of our lunar years. The following may then be concluded:-
Where does the Qur'an talk about lunar years?”

ANSWER: The corner stone of any study or scientific research is computing. In order to be able to compute, there must be some reference to relate the computation to. ALLAH (SWT) Has Created all elements, that we humans can utilize to learn and to develop. The globa lreference of computation for us here on earth is the relative motion of the earth around the sun and the motion of the moon around the earth.

Cited Verse 1
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
It is He Who Made the sun to give off powerful light and the moon to be a light, and
Arranged its stages so you can learn the number of years and to compute, nowise did
ALLAH Create this, but in truth and righteousness, He Explains His signs in detail for
those who know.
(part 11, Surat Yunus “Jonah”)

In cited verse 1, ALLAH
(SWT) Says that He Has Made the sun to give off powerful light and the moon to be a
light. Notice here that ALLAH (SWT) Has Described the light of the sun and the light of
the moon differently. The sun gives off powerful light, that is, the sun produces its own
powerful light. The moon to be a light, that is, the moon does not produce its light. In the
same verse, ALLAH (SWT) Says that the moon moves along a trajectory with specific
stages, so we can learn how to count years and to compute. It is ONLY the moon and not
the sun that moves along a trajectory with specific stages. Indeed, as the earth moves in
orbit around the sun, the moon moves along another orbit around the earth. The moon’s
light is a reflection of the sun’s light. As the location of the moon relative to the sun and
to the earth changes, the portion of the moon that is exposed to the sun’s light changes.
As viewed from the earth, the shape of the lighted portion of the moon changes from a
very small crescent to larger ones to half moon to full moon. The lighted portion is then
reduced from full moon to half moon to crescent, whose size becomes smaller each night
until it disappears. This cycle takes place as the moon completes one revolution around
the earth and is known as the lunar month.
The lunar year is the year associated with the motion of the moon around the earth.
The solar year is the year associated with the motion of the earth around the sun. In the Holy Qur’an, ALLAH (SWT) Has Told us directly the duration of the lunar year. He did not Tell explicitly the duration of the solar year, but instead gave us the exact mathematical formula that relates the solar year to the lunar year.

Cited Verse 2
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
The number of months in the sight of ALLAH is twelve, so ordained by Him the day He
Created the heavens and the earth, of them four are sacred, this precious religion, so do not be unfair for yourselves therein and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all
together, and know that ALLAH is with those who fear Him.
(part 10, Surat Tawbah “Forgiveness”)


In cited verse 2 ALLAH (SWT) Says that the number of months, in His record, the day He Created the heavens and the earth is TWELVE. The next words in the verse are, “of them four are sacred”. Those words determine that the lunar year has twelve months, because the lunar year is the one used by the Arabs, known as “Hijri year”, and it has four sacred months. The four sacred months in the Hijri year are, “Zulqe’da”, “Zulhejjah”, “Moharram” and “Rajab”. The solar year also has twelve months. In the Arabic language (the Holy Qur’an language), there are two different words
having the meaning of “year”. Those two words are the word “SANAH” and the word
“AAM”. Almost all the Arabic speaking people are using both words indiscriminately,
without knowing the difference between them. It will be shown here that there is a significant difference between the two words, and only the Holy Qur’an shows that in a very striking way. In cited verse 1, we see that the word “SINEEN”, which is the plural of the word “SANAH” is associated with the motion of the moon and its different stages. Therefore,
the word “SANAH” means “LUNAR YEAR”.
Surat Al Kahf (The Cave), in the Holy Qur’an, presents the story of a group of men and their dog. They fled their town in fear of prosecution because of their religious belief.
They went to hide in a cave. ALLAH (SWT) Made them go into deep sleep (as if they were dead), in the cave for a long period of time, then awaked (resurrected) them.

Cited Verse 3
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And so We Have Resurrected them (from the deep sleep), that they question each other,
said one of them “how long have we stayed (asleep)”, they said “we have stayed a day or
part of a day”, they said “your LORD Knows best how long we have stayed”, send one of
you with these papers (money) of yours to the town and let him find which is the best
food and bring some to you and let him behave with cautious and not to let any body feel
your presence.
(part 15, Surat Al Kahf “The Cave”)

Cited Verse 4
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And they stayed in their cave three hundred years and increased by nine.
(part 15, Surat Al Kahf “The Cave”)

Cited
verse 3 depicts the moment when they woke up [when they were resurrected by ALLAH (SWT)]. They were asking each other, how long have we stayed in this cave?.They all said that they have stayed “a day or part of a day”. Cited verse 4 states that
they have stayed (they have been asleep in the cave) three hundred years “SANAH” and increased by NINE. This is a very significant statement. ALLAH (SWT) is Educating us,
He Wants us to think. ALLAH (SWT) Could Have Said that the cave people stayed there for three hundred and nine years “SANAH’, but instead He Said, three hundred years and
increased by nine. ALLAH (SWT) is Giving us a clue here. Studying this phrase
carefully, we find the following :-
. The cave people stayed in their cave (in deep sleep) for three hundred and nine
LUNAR YEARS (“SANAH”)
. When the cave people were resurrected from their deep sleep, they believed that they
have stayed asleep for a day or part of a day. This indicates that the deep sleep started
and ended in THE SAME WEATHER CONDITION (SAME SEASON).
. Changes in the weather conditions are associated mainly with the four seasons
(spring, summer, autumn and winter). These four seasons have fixed starting and
ending dates in the solar year calendar not in the lunar year. In the lunar year the months of the move from one season to another along the years.
. Had the cave people stayed in their cave (in deep sleep) only three hundred lunar
years “SANAH”, they would have been resurrected in a different weather condition.
In such case, they could have never said that they have stayed a day or part of a day.
. After being asleep for three hundred and nine years “SANAH” , the cave people did
not notice any change in the weather. THEREFORE, THE EARTH MUST HAVE
COME TO THE SAME EXACT POSITION IN ITS ORBIT AROUND THE SUN AS IT
WAS AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE YEARS.
These findings together with the clue that ALLAH (SWT) Gave (three hundred years
and increased by nine), indicate that THREE HUNDRED AND NINE LUNAR YEARS
ARE EQUIVALENT TO THREE HUNDRED SOLAR YEARS.
Based on this mathematical relation, and since the solar year has 365.2422 days, we find that the lunar year “SANAH” has 354.604 days, that is the lunar year is 10.6382 days
shorter than the solar year. Since the lunar year has twelve months (cited verse 2), we find that the lunar month has 29.55 days.
It is worth mentioning here that the measurements and computations using the latest scientific and technological tools, have yielded results that are almost identical to the
above. We have to emphasize here that the findings that we can correctly deduce from the Holy Qur’an are the most accurate, since they are given to us by the Creator, ALLAH
(SWT).

Cited Verse 5
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Or like the one who passed by a village, all in ruins, said “how shall ALLAH Bring this
to life after its death, ALLAH then put him to death for one hundred years “Aam” then
resurrected him, He said “how long Have you stayed (dead), he said, “I stayed a day or
part of a day”, He said, “but you have stayed (dead) for one hundred years “Aam”, look at your food and your drink, they show no signs of aging, and look at your donkey, and
We may make of you a sign for the people, and look at the bones how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh, when this was shown clearly to him, he said, “I know that ALLAH is capable of doing everything.
(part 3, Surat Al Baqarah “The Heifer”)


Cited verse 5 depicts the story of a man who was passing by a village, which was completely in ruins. He wondered, how could ALLAH (SWT) Resurrect this village after
its death. ALLAH (SWT) then Put him to death for one hundred years “Aam”, then Resurrected him. In this verse, the Arabic word for a year “Aam” was used NOT the word
“Sanah”. After his resurrection the man was then asked, “how long have you stayed ?”.
The man said, “I have stayed a day or part of a day”. The man said that because when he was resurrected, he found that the weather conditions were the same as when he died.
This indicates that after one hundred years “Aam”, the earth returned to the same position in its orbit around the sun as it was at the beginning of the hundred years “Aam”. This
happens only, if those hundred years were Solar Years.
Therefore, the Arabic word for a year “Aam” is meant to be a solar year, and the
Arabic word for a year “Sanah” is meant to be a lunar year.
Such distinction between the two words in the Holy Qur’an, the word “Sanah” and the word “Aam” is very important in establishing the creation timeline, as I have mentioned in my posting “THE SIX CREATION DAYS…”.

Cited Verse 6
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And We Have Sent Nooh “Noah” to his people and he stayed among them one thousand
years “Sanah” less fifty years “Aam”, and the deluge overwhelmed them while they
persisted in sin.
(part 20, Surat Al Ankaboot “The Spider”)


In cited verse 6, the two Arabic words for the word “year”, which are, “Sanah” and “Aam”, are mentioned. In this verse, ALLAH (SWT) with His Holy wisdom Gave a rather noticeable expression, in order to let us know the difference between the two Arabic words, “Sanah” and “Aam”. In Telling how long Prophet Nooh “Noah” livedamong his people, ALLAH (SWT) Gave two different counts of the years. One count in
terms of “Sanah” and another in terms of “Aam”. In this verse, ALLAH (SWT) Said, “he (Noah) stayed among his people for one thousand “Sanah” less fifty “Aam”. If the
two words “Sanah” and “Aam” were the same, that is having the same duration of time, ALLAH (SWT) Would Have Said, nine hundred and fifty “Sanah” or “Aam”. By this particular phrasing, ALLAH (SWT) is Giving us a pointer to think about the two words
“Sanah” and “Aam”. Cited verse 6 is the only verse in the Holy Qur’an where the two words for a year “Sanah” and “Aam” were mentioned together to describe a period
of time.
Using the mathematical relation shown earlier between the lunar year “Sanah” and the
solar year “Aam”, we find that Prophet Noah has stayed among his people for the period
of 948.499 lunar years, which is equivalent to 920.87 solar years.
Since we are living on the earth, our time frame, that is all the variables that we compute time with (second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year, decade, century, …
etc.) are determined by the rotation of the earth around itself, the motion of the earth around the sun, and the motion of the moon around the earth. The speed of the earth
rotation about itself, determines the length of the day. The distance of the earth from the sun, and the speed at which the earth moves in its orbit around the sun, determine the
duration of the solar year. The movement of the moon around the earth determines the lunar month and the lunar year. If we were living on a different planet in our solar
system, say Mars, our local time frame will be different. Different day length, different duration of the solar year and two different lunar years, because Mars has two moons.
In our solar system, there are several different time frames. The size of our solar system compared to the size of our galaxy (the Milky Way) is like a needle in the ocean.
Our galaxy is among billions and billions of other galaxies and celestial objects. Therefore, there are an infinite number of time frames in the universe. Our human mind
is incapable of understanding even the most elementary concept of time beyond our solar
system.

Time is a relative quantity. It measures the duration and the relative changes in the
conditions of a dynamic event. If there was no change, time would have no meaning. Among the names of ALLAH (SWT) are “THE FIRST” and “THE LAST”. That is, nothing before Him and nothing after Him. He Existed before the creation of the heavens
and the earth and He Will ever exist after the heavens and the earth will cease to exist. Therefore, before the creation of the heavens and the earth, time as a quantity was not
there. Also, after the heavens and the earth (in their present condition) will cease to exist,
that is, on and after judgment day, time as a quantity will not exist, since every thing will be eternal. The paradise and the hell will be there forever. From this it is
seen that time was created with the creation of the heavens and the earth. The heavens and the earth are in continuous motions and evolution. Therefore, time is essential to account for such motions and evolution.

Since time is a measurable quantity, therefore it must have units to measure it with.The units that we humans use to measure the time are
based on the motions of the earth.
In the Holy Qur’an ,ALLAH (SWT) is Talking to us humans. He is Giving us enough information about all things that touch our life. ALLAH (SWT) Demands from the believers to study the creation of the heavens and the earth, as I have shown in my explanation why the Quran contains scientific knowledge. In order to gain some understanding of the creation of the heavens and the earth, ALLAH (SWT) Gave some basics. Among these basics is the time measuring unit for the creation of the heavens and the earth. ALLAH (SWT) is Telling us about this time
unit, because before and during the creation of the heavens and the earth, there were no earth days. The earth started to function as it is today and the duration of the earth days
was established after the creation period has ended.

Cited Verse 8
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And they ask you to hasten on the torture, and ALLAH Will not Fail in His promise,
verily a day in the sight of Thy LORD is equivalent to one thousand years (Sanah) of
those what you count.
(part 17, Surat Al Hajj “The Pilgrimage”

Cited Verses 9
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
ALLAH is He Who Created the heavens and the earth and what in between them in six
days, then firmly Established on the Throne, you do not have other than Him to protect
you and to intercede on your behalf, should not this be always on your mind. He
Arranges all affairs from the heaven to the earth, then they go back to Him in a day
equivalent to one thousand years (Sanah) of what you count.
(part 21, Surat Al Sajdah “The Adoration)


In cited verse 8, ALLAH (SWT) Says that a day in His Holy sight is equivalent to one thousand of our lunar years “Sanah”. Using the mathematical relation established
earlier between the lunar and the solar years, we find that one day in ALLAH’s Holy sight is equivalent to 970.87 solar years. In mentioning the duration of a day in the sight
of ALLAH (SWT), He is Giving us a very important piece of information. This piece of information enables us to compute exactly and in our time frame, the length of time
during which ALLAH (SWT) Created the heavens and the earth.
The duration of the day in the sight of ALLAH (SWT) has been mentioned in the Holy Qur’an only twice, in cited verse 8 and cited verses 9. In the first verse
of cited verses 9, ALLAH (SWT) is Telling that He Has Created the heavens and the
earth and what in between them in six days. In the second verse of cited verses 9, ALLAH (SWT) Says that the affairs which He Arranges from the heaven to the earth, go back to Him in a day which is equivalent to one thousand years (Sanah) of what
we count. The years which we count are the earth’s years.
The sequence of events in these verses is very clear. First ALLAH (SWT) Created the heaven and the earth and what in between them in six days, then He Arranges all affairs
from the heaven to the earth, that is there is a strong connection and interaction between the heaven (lowest heaven, universe) and the earth. The commands of ALLAH (SWT) are instantly executed. The executed commands
go back in a day which is equivalent to one thousand of our years
(Sanah). The association between the days of creation and the day which the executed commands go back to ALLAH (SWT) indicates that a creation day is a day in the sight of
ALLAH (SWT) ("SINCE THE DAY HE CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH"), which is equivalent to one thousand of our lunar years (Sanah).

12.” Qur'anSay, is it that you deny Him Who Created the earth in two days and do you make equals to Him, He is The LORD of all worlds. And He Made solid foundations on top of it, and Bestowed blessings on it and established in it all its resources in four days in accordance with the needs of those who seek sustenance. He then Proceeded to the heaven while it had been smoke, and Said to it and to the earth, “come willingly or unwillingly”, they said, “we do come in willing obedience”. He then Arranged them seven heavens in two days, and He Assigned to each heaven its function and command, and We Adorned the lowest heaven with lamps (illuminators) and for security, this is the design of The Exalted in might the full of knowledge.
If you could include your references more clearly I'd appreciate it. I couldn't find the reference for this one.

ANSWER: The reference is Surat Fussilat, it is the Sura 41. The cited verses are verses 9 to 12.

13.” ALLAH (SWT) Made solid foundations (the lithosphere plates, NOT “mountains” !)
Why not mountains?”

ANSWER: This conclusion is based on a collective study of all verses where “Solid foundation” is used and where “mountains” is used. I will present this collective study in a single posting, OK?

14.” commanded it and the earth to follow His rules.
The earth isn't mentioned in this part of the verse.”

ANSWER: Of course the earth is mentioned! Which translation of Qur’an do you use?

15.” ALSO WE LEARN FROM THESE VERSES THAT ALL EARTH RESOURCES ARE
LOCATED WITHIN THE SOLID FOUNDATIONS AND ABOVE.
The verse says "established in it." "It" may refer to the foundations or it may refer back to "the earth" which would be nothing unknown.”

ANSWER:Again, this conclusion is based on human sense of logic and a collective study of all verses which deal with the solid foundations, mountains and the earth’s structure in general, which I will present in a single posting, inshALLAH.

16.” It is known that smoke is produced only by heat or as a result of fire.
Again, why do you assume that? Why couldn't God create smoke without heat? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not. This then makes your next couple sentences irrelevant.”

ANSWER: As explained above, “dukhan” expresses HOT TEMPERATURE.

17.” That is, for the earth to take its final form and shape, and to perform properly, the heaven must reach a stage of its development in order to provide the environment and the requirements needed for the earth to function in the assigned manner.
Why do you assume that? Why couldn't God make the earth function without the heavens? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not. This also makes your next couple sentences irrelevant.

ANSWER: ALLAH (SWT) Has addressed to both the heavens and the earth at the mean time. That is, they adapted their physical laws at the same time, which shows, that they are in connection and implies, that one can’t without the other. Indeed, the earth cannot perform in its assigned way without the presence of the solar system, which is in the galaxy, which is in the universe. How can the earth move in its orbit around the sun, when the sun does not yet exist?

18.” In these few words, ALLAH (SWT) Gave us the definition of a star. The star is a celestial object that emits light due to extreme heat generated within.
There's nothing about heat, and everyone knew stars give light.

ANSWER: Lamps produce light as a result of heat generated. The same goes for all the stars.

19.” Generation of the tremendous amount of heat within the star could not be achieved unless the star is formed of gas.
I'm no geologist, but I know there's tremendous heat within the earth, the outer core is melted into liquid, but the earth isn't made of gas.”

ANSWER: Yes, but the earth, DOES NOT GENERATE ITS OWN HEAT AND THEN EMIT LIGHT AS A RESULT, like the stars do! Only the stars do this. And this can only be achieved by fusion processes of gasses. Again, I feel the urgence and importance to present the already mentioned collective study about the earth’s structure.

20.” The forcible disintegration resulted also in the formation of giant eddies and turbulence within these clouds.
Why do you assume that? Why couldn't God separate heaven and earth without giant eddies? Is it beyond his power? Does the verse say that he didn't? Certainly not.“

ANSWER: See answers above.

21.” The non-illuminating bodies, such as the planets produce gravitational forces only.
Actually, planets also have magnetic forces also. That last quote of yours comes from a big chunk of text where you discuss some astronomy, yet none of this is explaned or even hinted of in the cited verse. Why did you put it all in? You say the verse means the heaven were to keep intruders out and to keep order, but nothing you talk about connects with either of those until the last sentence about jinn.”

ANSWER: What importance has the magnetic force of the planets in this context? I said that the planets produce only gravitational force in comparison to the stars, which produce various forces. In Qur’an ALLAH (SWT) Has explained that the stars secure the lowest heaven. He has not explicitly told how, but we can make conclusions based on our scientific knowledge. As I have explained in my posting which explains how to interpret the creation verses, the using of scientific knowledge is also a main factor when interpreting a verse. Today we can understand how the stars secure the lowest heaven.

22.” 71.15,16Do not you see how ALLAH Has Created seven heavens one above the other. And Made the moon a light in them and Made the sun a glorious light source.
If you want to be literal, then what does "above" mean? It would mean the second heaven is on top of the first, but this conflicts with everything we know about the universe, because the earth is not at the bottom. If God meant literal interpration here, he would have said "one around the other."

ANSWER: Your claim isn’t correct. “On top of the other” doesn’t necessarily express only one direction.

23.” It has been discovered very recently, that the expansion of the universe, which is also mentioned in Qur’an in Surat 51; Verse 49, is accelerating at a rate way too high to be explainable by the ballon analogy.
I have no idea where you got this from. 51.49 says, "And of everything We have created pairs that you may be mindful." I think you're mixing up your miracle statements.”

ANSWER: The verse is 51;47

24.” The motion of the galaxies away from our galaxy must be unidirectional away from it. By unidirectional, it means that the speeds of the receding galaxies are function of only one variable ,i.e. function of distance only. This is in accordance with Hubble's law.
Again I'm not an physicist, but I remember reading an article last year saying that the acceleration of galaxies isn't explained by the Law of Gravitation (speed inversely proportional to distance) which means there's more than one variable. It may be that Hubbel's law is outdated, it has been around for a long time, but then I'm not sure.

ANSWER: What you mention is was an assumption. In astronomy there are so many of such assumptions. Some even try to explain the red-shift of the galaxies by a “tired light” theory, which can clearly be proved incorrect. However, as I have mentioned, I am in contact with a space engineerer who has explained to me these things very clearly.

25.” Hubble´s law is a proof that the earth was created first!
But the Qur'an doesn't say this. It says the heaven and earth were separated. If two things separate, they each attain their own identity the instant they become apart, meaning the earth and heaven were each created at the same instant.

ANSWER: Yes, the MATTER was created instantly. However, the earth was FORMED before the heaven, while the heaven was still smoke. The making of the heavens out of smoke occurred in the last two creation days when the earth already existed. Therefore the making of the heavens proceeded in the outward directions away from the earth.

25.” THE SOLID BORDER OF THE LOWEST HEAVEN, mentioned in Qur’an; WHICH IS FORMED OF DARK MATTER AND ATTRACTS THE GALAXIES FROM ALL SIDES. THE NEARER THEY COME TO THE BORDER; THE FASTER THEY GET ATTRACTED.
Here you've contradicted your own words. Before you said the "solid border" was a kind of anti-gravity, now you're the closer the galaxies, the faster they're attracted which is gravity. You go on talking about radiation which has nothing to do with anything you've cited from the Qur'an.”

ANSWER: The border itself is of course of gravitational force. However, the force has a (relatively seen) anti-gravitational EFFECT.

26.” Neither one contradicts science, they are meant to poetically display God's majesty and power. Trying to stretch their meaning only fools readers and ourselves. Not only that, but it would disprove the Qur'an! Look back at 71.16. It says "the moon a light in them (the heavens)." If we take it literally, it means that the moon is among the heavens. You said the first heaven is the universe, and "The second heaven is a bigger enclosure containing its own territory and surrounding the lowest
heaven. The same for the third heaven and so on, up to the seventh heaven." So for the moon to be in the heavens, it must be somewhere between the first heaven and the seventh heaven, that is, outside the universe. But that's pure nonsense!“

ANSWER: In the Holy Qur’an, whenever the moon and the sun are mentioned, they are mentioned in their definitive and singular forms, that is “the moon” and “the sun”. In the Holy
Qur’an, ALLAH (SWT) is Talking to us, mankind and we live on the earth. Therefore, the moon and the sun are those related to the earth. In the cited verse, ALLAH (SWT)
Says that He Has Made in them (the heavens) the moon as a light and the sun as a bright light source. Notice here and in all other verses mentioning the moon and the sun that
there is a distinction between the description of the light emitted from the moon and that
emitted from the sun. As I have explained, the lowest heaven extends beyond the farthest star and is enclosed by the remaining six heavens. Since the lowest heaven is the
inner most one, therefore whatever in the lowest heaven is also in the upper heavens. The Cited verse asserts this fact.

27.” You prove your own Book wrong by doing it. So go on! Or look at 18.86, "the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea." This is not even poetic, it's part of the narrative of Zulqarnain. Should we say the Qur'an is wrong, that this story never happened, that God is lying?! You can if you like. Even in such an extreme example, I would not disqualify your Book, though you disqualify mine for much smaller problems than this. Instead I would say that God has purpose in everything he says, whether it be scientificly or historicaly true or not.”

ANSWER: First, the translation is not good. A better translation is the one I have in my hands which Says: “When He then arrived at the place of the sun set (which stands for the western direction) he found it as if it was going down into a mud…” Obviously, this is a clear metaphor/simile. Metaphors can stand in ANY kind of text, including narrations. There’s nothing specially poetic about it. No one would get an impression that the sun physically sinks into something! Moreover, the Quran talks about the motion of the sun quite clear! (tell me if you want a collective study). However, the statement “because he (the rabbit) chews the cud” in Leviticus can only have THIS ONE MEANING. The rabbit’s assumed chewing the cud is the reason for the eating law prescribed upon him! Please, how do you explain this verse?

Well, I’ve written now for almost two hours and will quit now, because I still have a family :)

I hope I have made clear my points. Tell me if you have further questions.

I’d like to add that most of your misconceptions, misunderstandings, doubts and misinterpretations of the Holy verses come from the fact that you don’t use the arabic original, but just a translation (even without commentary, I think). I wish you could experience the clearness of the original arabic versions.

Let’s not forget that we aren’t fighting with each other, we’re all just humans discussing questions about the Almighty Creator, which should be done in the best way.
SALAAM

[jcecil3]

LAST EDITED ON 14-12-01 AT 04:00 PM (GMT)[p]Greetings to Both JBJ and Hassanlmuslim!

>
>First I want to say that
>I don’t think that jcecil3
>reads my postings carefully because

I will admit that I sort of "speed read" through the exact details of modern scientific theories. However, I quote you verbatim below, and I think it is pretty clear that if I misinterpreted you, it was an undertsandable misinterpretation.

The reason I read your piece rather quickly is that as soon as you make a premise that a modern scientific theory unavailable to anyone 1,400 years ago is in a text written 1,400 years ago, I already disagree with your premise. No amount of explanaition of the modern sciencific theory will convince me otherwise. Your exact scientific statements do not matter, because what I want to discuss is the very premise.

And in discussing the premise, I want to look at the verse WITHOUT any interpretation. Then I want to look at the verse compared to other verses on the same subject and within the context of the entire text. Then I want to look at the historical context of the text (i.e. -- what was the political, economic and social landscape? Who was the author addressing? What issues in the community addressed were considered "hot"? What philosophical and theological premises were "in the air"?). Then I want to look at the earliest interpretations of the verse available. Then I want to look at how the words and phrases in the verse and the earliest interpretations were used in other literature of the same period. Then I want to look at how interpretations of the verses evolved after that time period.

Only AFTER we have done ALL of that do I want to look at how it compares to modern science.

I believe that if we start with a scientific theory, try to impose that theory into a verse, and then try to compare verses, we already got off on a potential misinterpretation of literature. A small error in the beginning leads to larger errors in the end.

>-he says that I have stated
>NASA holds the belief of
>the galaxy being at or
>near the center of the
>universe while I have just
>stated that 3 years ago
>NASA published images obtained by
>Hubble Space telescope which showed
>that the earth and the
>rest of the universe almost
>have the same age, which
>is contrary to the big
>bang theory.

OK. I admit that I was speed reading and seem to have confused your statements that the earth is at the center of the universe with your actual statement that the galaxy is close to the center. I also admit that I seem to have confused your references of NASA with the Hubble Space telescope finding. However, I think the misunderstanding was understandable based on your actual words. Your actual words were:

FROM YOUR FIRST POST: The creation proceeded in the outward direction from the earth, because the earth was created first. The earth was created first, then the solar system, then the galaxy (Milky Way). This indicates that our galaxy should be at the center of the universe. This is what Hubble observed at the late 1920’s.

FROM YOUR FIRST POST: It has become clear, that the universe must have a center. The false imagination of the universe having no center mainly was and is based on the observation of the NON-FLUCTUATING COSMIC BACKGROUND RADIATION. The radiation is equally spread all over the universe.

FROM YOUR SECOND POST (BEFORE YOU SAID I MISQUOTED YOU):
A. ....BUT: 3 years ago Hubble Space Telescope provided images which showed that the earth and the rest of the universe have the same age! This was published on NASA website.

The reference to the NASA website was immediately preceeding the next statement:

B :The Quran shows that the creation processes proceeded in the outward direction of the earth, because the earth was formed first. This means, the earth was at the center of the universe during the creation days...Moreover, the discovering of the unidirectional motion of the galaxies which functions only by the variable of distance, shows that our galaxy is at the center of the universe and averything moves away from it.

Do you see why I was a little confused (especially if reading quickly)?

FROM YOUR THIRD POST: Please notice that I did NOT say that the earth is at the center of the universe, nor did I say that NASA said that! It isn’t! It can’t be because it is constantly moving! I said our galaxy should be at or near the center of the universe, because the motions of the other galaxies are unidirectional away from our galaxy, which, by the way, is not common knowledge. Maybe our galaxy is not exactly at the center, but just very close to it (it could be moving slowly, if the gravitational force of the solid border of the universe has a slight impact on it).

However, I DO NOT want to battle about whether the earth is the center of the universe, the galaxy, or whether anyone at NASA says either or none. I stated quite clearly that while I have studied some science, I do not feel qualified to speak to science. Though I was a Chemistry major my first three years of undergraduate university, my degree was eventually in literature, and my graduate studies were in theology. I do not want to argue science.

I am criticising your method of interpreting literature! Your starting point is fallacious, making it hard to pay close attention to the rest of what you have to say!

In order for me to understand or accept your point, I need you to back up to the starting premise. Build your case that you are reading the text as intended by the author FIRST, then show how it compares and contrasts to science. This is proper exegesis. You seem to be comparing and contrasting each verse to science individually, and then comparing scientific interpretations of each verse to each other. This is a fallacious method of interpreting a written document from another era.

>You can not
>say something like: “NASA thinks…”
>At NASA there are the
>most different kinds of researchers.
>Some still follow the big
>bang theory, many have other
>views. I am in contact
>via email with a retired
>space engineerer who is sure
>that our galaxy is at
>or near the center, that
>the universe HAS a center
>and that that the universe
>must have a solid border
>formed from anti-gravitational dark matter.
>

I am well aware that any academic group has competing paradigms, and nuanced differences even within a single paradigm. Of course nobody can say "NASA says" in any absolute sense. Yet, we can speak of the general consensus of the majority of researchers at NASA. It seemed to me that you are implying that there is a majority opinion forming at NASA that the earth is as old as the rest of the universe, and that the milky way galaxy is close to the center of the universe. But again, I do not want to argue about science. I want to talk about to interpret literature!

One other point, before I am accused further of misinterpreting you. You state that you are NOT trying to prove the Qur'an is consistent with science in one place, and that you are trying to prove this in another:

IN YOUR FIRST POST: While the bible contains obvious errors and contradictions to science, the Qur’an avoids these contradictional statements and even explains secrets of the universe, which are unanswered by the present day astronomers and cosmologists.

BUT IN THE SECOND POST: 1.My aim is NOT to prove the Qur’ans validity by showing how it is compatible with modern science.

I do understand that you are claiming that there are some truths in the Qur'an that modern science has not discovered or confirmed. However, you do seem to be writing with a clear intent to demonstrate three premises:
1)That the Qur'an will never be inconsistent with valid science.
2)That the Qur'an contains ideas that were completely unavailable 1,400 years ago.
3)That those ideas will eventually be born out by scientific discovery.

Your first premise is strictly a scientific question, and I've already admitted I am not qualified to speak to science.

It is your second premise that I disagree with as a student of literature, and literary study can address this premise. But my disagreement with this premise throws doubt on the other two premises as well.

I cannot read Arabic, and I have only read the Qur'an once straight through (rather recently). However, in my reading, it does not strike me that there any ideas contained in the text that were not common to other literature I am familiar with from the same time period the Qur'an was compiled.

However, I confess that my studies have been with mostly European and Christian literature, so there may be some nuances of the Arabic historical context that I an unfamiliar with. Nevertheless, ideas such as "seven heavens", six days of creation possibly being about 6,000 years, creation from water and smoke, etc..., were quite common in the time period in Europe. We find them in Dionysius, Manichean gospels, Monophystite writings, and earlier writings of Greeks and Romans. Therefore, I have no reason to doubt that that these ideas could have been "in the air" in Arabia.

For this reason, arguing about the scientific validity of these ideas strikes me as foolishness, especially since we know science always changes. I am trying to say that a better spiritual and theological understanding of the text can be derived from reading the text in its historic and literary context. The question of consistency or inconsistency with science, while interesting, is irrelavant to both literary and theological discussion.

JBJ -- You wrote, "I agree that Jcecil is wrong in saying that because Muslims didn't interpret all these scientific concepts out of the Qur'an the concepts aren't there. They certainly could have missed them, just as Jews missed prophecies about Jesus such as his death and divinity."

I do not mind that you disagree with me JBJ, and you raise a valid question. However, I would counter that the Jews writing prophecy DID understand in some sense that they were propheying of the Messiah. Perhaps, for some of them, it was more a vague sense of expressing a poetic hope for a future deliverer than God in the flesh -- but the sentiment was there. Furthermore, there is no doubt that the early Jewish converts to Christ interpreted the Christ events as the fullfilment of prophecy. Furthermore, those Jews who were not converted did not deny the Messianic meaning of the prophecy. The notion of a coming Messiah was "in the air". Rather, the Jews who rejected Jesus denied that Jesus was the person who fullfilled those prophecies!

Peace and Blessings!

jcecil3

[JBJ]

Hi Hassanalmuslim,

Thanks for resonding in such detail. Because there are so many details, I won't respond to every one of them, but I'll try to summarize.

Most of what you said was linking the Qur'an to modern science, not showing that one led to the other. If you wanted to prove that the Qur'an coincides with science, you certainly proved your point. However, if it was to show the Qur'an predicted science in a way any more than vaguely, you haven't. To do that you would have to look at an ayah and interpret it without anything about modern science. Then you could show how close the inerpretations were with science.

You had one exception, that with lunar and solar years. The problem is, in the two stories you quoted, it can't be concluded that the men woke up into the exact same season, only approximately. For example, I don't know where you live, but in America the weather is abnormally warm, so much that it could be thought to be several months earlier in the year than what it really is. I did some very rough calculations, and after 100 years the difference between lunar and solar years is about one month, therefore there wouldn't be much difference in weather. Further, the men in the cave might have still been inside the cave when they made their comment, in which case they wouldn't even be clear what the weather outside is like. Therefore, the two Arabic words don't necessarily mean what you say.

One more point, the cited verse that a day is like a thousand years may only mean that God has a different sense of time than we do, if you choose that interpretation. The point is that you've only used one interpretation, where there is more than one.

I actually wonder on the accuracy of your own translation. I use Shakir usually, as has been one of the ones recommended. Here is it again with the two other leading translations that Muslims have recommended:

YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

Notice all three famous translators have translated it the same way. Even if the Arabic where difficult to translate in this verse, we'd expect some variation, but there's none, it suggests the meaning is very plane. I wonder if you own version was translated in light of complying better with science.

Two commentators, al-Jananal and al-Tabari, both interpret it not as being literal, as does Ibn Abbas, a sahaba. What you said that no one would take it literally is incorrect.

In regards to 71.16, there is nothing in the Qur'an (that I recall) saying each heaven is around the other as you take it. In one verse you cited it says each heaven is on top of the other, in other words, the second heaven is on top of the first, the third on top of the second, etc. (Or, the first is on top of the second, the second on the third, etc.) Thus, unless I'm somewhere mistaken, the moon should be higher (lower) than the first and lower (higher) than the seventh. And then making the moon farther than the stars. I may be wrong, and if so correct me.

Concerning Genesis, it is poetic, as Jcecil has said. Things are explained for readers and listeners to understand it was the one God who created the universe, not a pantheon. But the creation of light isn't contrary to science. To "separate" means to "make apart." The light is made to be apart from the darkness. It does NOT have to mean they were once together. It probably meant to those who heard it that there was complete darkness, then a light in one place, and God kept the two from joining together. For example, the US separated church and state, yet in America the two were never one entity, the statement means the US kept them apart.

You raise a good question about rabbits. I've read in one place that the word here doesn't mean "rabbit" in English but an animal no longer alive now, "rabbit" being the closest know animal to the Hebrew word, but I'm not sure that's correct. The other side is that rabbits go through a process called "reflection," very similar to rumination, or chewing the cud. Only recently was it discovered they were different. Had God said that rabbits didn't chew the cud, Moses would have lost some confidence by the Jews because everyone then would have believed his revelation of God to be silly. The law wasn't made for the modern world, it was for the ancient world, thus he spoke as the ancient world would understand.

There's a bigger problem here. That is that both these cases come from the Jewish Torah which is affirmed by the Qur'an. To say the Torah makes a mistake is to also mean the Qur'an makes a mistake.

You asked about the water cycle in the Bible which is very interesting. Actually this is one of the very rare cases where God, I believe, did reveal an aspect of nature unknown to mankind then. Evaporation wasn't known in Israelite times, but God says to the prophet Isaiah: Who makes the water to fall from the heavens and then return to it. (Obviously the heavens is used to mean sky sometimes.) I'm sorry I don't know the reference off the top of my head.

Again, my conclusion is that neither Book predicts modern science, verses about nature are meant to be poetic and to show God's power and knowledge. Forcing the interpretation only fools ourselves and listeners. To prove the Qur'an makes statements predicting science, you'd have to show that the ONLY interpretation that could be taken from verses not only coincides with science, but that these are the only possible interpretations.

I thank you for reminding us this isn't about fighting, it's about finding the truth. I definitely agree.

JBJ

[jcecil3]

Greetings Hassanalmuslim!

On your recent post entitled “Structure of the Earth” I provided a more detailed explanation demonstrating how I think you misinterpret the Qur’an. I will attempt to do so below. As with the prior explanation, the Qur’an will be in bold. Your own comments will be in italics. My comments will be in plain texts. I will delete nothing from you post except your introduction regarding Genesis. Let’s try to look at the Qur’an from a literary perspective:

Cited Verse 1
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together in one
entity, then We forcibly Disintegrated them, and We Made from water every living thing,
do not they then believe ?.
(part 17, Surat Al Anbiya’a “The Prophets”)

Cited Verse 2
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And it is He Who Created the heavens and the earth in six days and His Throne was on
the water, to test you which of you has better deeds, and if you said that you will indeed
be resurrected after the death, the unbelievers would be sure to say, “this is nothing but
powerful sorcery.
(part 12, Surat Hood “The Prophet Hood”)

ALLAH (SWT) Gave the sequence of the creation processes and their timing in a very simple
manner that could be understood by the human mind. The precise definitions and
description and the power and the beauty of the wording is felt when reciting the Holy
Qur’an in its original language, the Arabic language. English translation of the verses of
the Holy Qur’an gives only the general meaning and concept. Detailed explanations will
be presented to convey to the reader the intended meanings as precisely as possible.
In cited verse 1, ALLAH (SWT) is Demonstrating His might and power to the
unbelievers. In this demonstration, He is Telling two very important things. The
beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the main ingredient that all
living creatures are made of.
THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, BEFORE THEIR CREATION WERE JOINED
TOGETHER IN ONE ENTITY. ALLAH (SWT) THEN FORCIBLY DISINTEGRATED
THEM. SUCH DISINTEGRATION STARTED THE CREATION OF THE HEAVENS
AND THE EARTH. ALSO ALLAH (SWT) HAS MADE EVERY LIVING THING
FROM WATER.

I agree that this conclusion is what the text says.

Since the heavens and the earth, before their creation were one entity, therefore it may
be concluded that every thing in the heavens and the earth came from the same origin.
In one verse, cited verse 1, ALLAH (SWT) Has Associated the beginning of the
creation of the heavens and the earth, with the identification of water as the main
substance of life. In cited verse 2, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created the
heavens and the earth in six days and His Throne WAS on the water. Using the past tense
“WAS”, indicates that water was present before the creation of the heavens and the earth
(Recent observations support the presence of water at the beginning of creation).
The presence of water before the forcible disintegration of the primary (massive) entity
that was joining the heavens and the earth, suggests that WATER MIGHT HAVE
CONTRIBUTED SOMEHOW TO THE ONSET OF THIS FORCIBLE
DISINTEGRATION.
For years it has been recognized that water contains the most powerful energy source
(hydrogen and oxygen). Recent scientific studies have shown that unlimited energy may
be extracted from water by a process called “cold fusion”. However, successful
realization of such techniques has not been accomplished yet.
The forcible disintegration of the massive entity must have produced fragments of all
sizes as well as huge clouds of dust. The forcible disintegration also must have generated
tremendous heat (radiation) that caused some of the water to break down to its elements,
hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen and the oxygen were then incorporated with the
huge clouds of dust. When hydrogen is subjected to extreme heat, reactions known as
“atomic fusion” occur. The fusion process releases tremendous amount of energy in the
form of heat and transforms hydrogen to helium (such process occurs in the sun, and in
most of all other stars). It has been discovered that hydrogen and helium are the most
dominant gases in the universe.
In cited verses 2 , as well as in several other verses in the Holy Qur’an,
ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created the heavens and the earth and what in between
them in six days. During the creation process which lasted six days, the earth as well as
the heavens were being created. They started to function the way they are now after the
creation process has ended, that is after the six days have ended. During the six days of
creation, the rotation of the earth about itself, which defines the length of the day was not
fully established.
Accordingly, the six days of creation are meant to be six days in the sight of ALLAH
(SWT), NOT earth days . A day in the
sight of ALLAH (SWT) is equivalent to one thousand of our lunar years. The following
may then be concluded:-
THE HEAVENS, THE EARTH AND WHAT IN BETWEEN THEM WERE
CREATED IN SIX THOUSAND OF OUR LUNAR YEARS, THAT IS 5825.24 OF
OUR SOLAR YEARS.

All this science about water and cold fusion is interesting, but there is nothing in the text quoted thus far that contradicts the Bible. Verse one of Genesis states that “In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, 2. the earth was a formless wasteland and darkness covered the abyss while a mighty wind swept over the waters.” We have almost the exact situation you describe. The earth and the heavens are one, with water already present. In other words, Mohammed could simply be reciting his memorized version of what he knew of Genesis from an historical-critical perspective. The Bible also affirms that a day is like a thousand years to God, and the Jews used a lunar calendar as well. At this point, I am not saying that either the Bible or the Qur'an is representing modern science. I am demonstrating that the text of the Qur'an is written in language consistent with a pre-existing world-view.

Cited Verses 3
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, is it that you deny Him Who Created the earth in two days and do you make equals
to Him, He is The LORD of all worlds. And He Made solid foundations on top of it, and
Bestowed blessings on it and established in it all its resources in four days in accordance
with the needs of those who seek sustenance. He then Proceeded to the heaven while it
had been smoke, and Said to it and to the earth, “come willingly or unwillingly”, they
said, “we do come in willing obedience”. He then Arranged them seven heavens in two
days, and He Assigned to each heaven its function and command, and We Adorned the
lowest heaven with lamps (illuminators) and for security, this is the design of The
Exalted in might the full of knowledge.
(part 24, Surat Fusselat “Detailed”)

The detailed sequence and the timetable for the creation of the heavens and the earth
are presented in cited verses 3. In just these few phrases, ALLAH (SWT) Gives
information that mankind with all accumulated scientific and technological knowledge
would never be able to discover. The creation sequence and timetable may conveniently be presented as follows:-
ALLAH (SWT) Created the earth in TWO DAYS (two thousand lunar years).
ALLAH (SWT) Made solid foundations (the lithosphere plates, NOT “mountains”!) on top of the earth, Bestowed blessings
on it and Established in it all its resources in FOUR DAYS (four thousand lunar
years).
ALLAH (SWT) Proceeded to the heaven while it was smoke and commanded it
and the earth to follow His rules.
ALLAH (SWT) Formed and Arranged seven heavens, and Assigned in each
heaven its function and commands in TWO DAYS (two thousand lunar years).
ALLAH (SWT) Adorned the lowest heaven with lamps (illuminators) and for
security.
In these concise verses, ALLAH (SWT) Has Given us a wealth of information and
several clues and pointers to help us understand the general aspects of the creation of the
heavens and the earth. In these verses He Has Given us a very important piece of
information about the construction of the earth. THE SOLID FOUNDATIONS ON TOP
OF THE EARTH, WHILE IT MAY BE CONSIDERED A PART OF THE EARTH, IT
IS NOT AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE EARTH. THIS MEANS THAT THE SOLID
FOUNDATIONS ARE NOT RIGIDLY FIXED TO THE EARTH BENEATH IT. THERE IS A DISCONTINUITY BETWEEN THE INNER EARTH AND THE SOLID FOUNDATIONS. ALSO WE LEARN FROM THESE VERSES THAT ALL EARTH RESOURCES ARE
LOCATED WITHIN THE SOLID FOUNDATIONS AND ABOVE.
Another very important piece of information is given in these verses. After the
creation of the earth,

What is described here is very similar to a medieval world-view that would have been common in Europe at the time Mohammed received the Qur’an. I do not know Arabic history well enough to be certain this world-view was shared by Arabs, but it would seem plausible. The earth was pictured in medieval Europe as a half-sphere (somewhat flattened, but higher in the middle). Underground was hades, sheol, the abode of the dead, or hell. Beneath that, the earth sat on columns that rested on a flat disk. This entire structure sort of floated on primordial waters of the abyss. Over the earth was the first heaven – the visible sky. In the sky were holes. Light from the second heavens shined through the sky as stars. Water also poured through the holes as rain. There are also floodgates in the first heaven for a really bad storm. Beyond the first heaven were six more heavens. The heavens surrounded the earth as full-globed spheres, or semi-spheres that went into the abyss. The seven spheres (seven heavens) spun around the earth, and even created music heard only by angels and Allah. Allah dwells everywhere, but is in his purest form in the seventh heaven. The sun and the moon are disks that travel through under the first heaven. The disk supporting the earth in the waters of the abyss turned slowly.

Of course, I’ve read ahead, and posted similar arguments elsewhere. Are you starting to see that what I am describing seems to match what the Qur’an describes?

THE HEAVEN WAS JUST ONE HEAVEN AND IT WAS ALL
SMOKE. It is known that smoke is produced only by heat or as a result of fire. This
indicates two things. The forcible disintegration of the entity that produced the heavens
and the earth also produced tremendous amount of heat. The creation of the earth, then
the creation of the heavens started immediately after the forcible disintegration occurred,
that is, there was no time delay between the onset of the forcible disintegration of the
primary entity and the creation of the earth then the heavens. In cited verses 3,
adding the mentioned days for the creation of the earth and the heavens, we find them
EIGHT days. This is seen more clearly in the above presentation of the sequence and
timetable of the creation. In all the verses in the Holy Qur’an that mention the creation of
the heavens and the earth, such as cited verse 2, and all the others, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created the heavens and the earth in six days not eight days. In fact cited verses 3 are the only ones in the Holy Qur’an where ALLAH (SWT) Gave the sequence, the details and the timetable for the creation of the heavens and the earth. This is another pointer to us in order to think and to discover. There must be an overlapping period of two days, where some final events of the earth’s creation took place simultaneously with the creation of the heavens. The third verse (in Arabic) of cited verses 3 gives such indication. In this verse, when ALLAH (SWT) Proceeded to the heaven while it was smoke and Said to it and to the earth “Come willingly or
unwillingly”, they said “we do come in willing obedience”. That Holy command was an
order from ALLAH (SWT) to the heaven and the earth to start functioning according to
His rules and laws. Their performance is interconnected. That is, for the earth to take its
final form and shape, and to perform properly, the heaven must reach a stage of its
development in order to provide the environment and the requirements needed for the
earth to function in the assigned manner. For instance, the earth can not perform in the
way assigned to it by ALLAH (SWT) without the presence of our solar system (the sun,
the moon and the planets and their moons) and the other celestial objects in the heaven.

This is where I have been asking you to stop in my prior responses. Why do you assume that a text written in the seventh century is talking about our solar system? You haven’t yet, but you are about to slip into isogesis, which is the habit of reading IN TO texts. Isogesis is opposed to exegesis, which is the art and science of reading OUT OF the text.

In that respect, the following may be concluded :-
DURING THE LAST TWO DAYS OF THE CREATION OF THE EARTH, WHILE
ALLAH (SWT) WAS MAKING ITS SOLID FOUNDATIONS ON TOP OF IT, AND
LAYING IN IT ITS RESOURCES, HE WAS SIMULTANEOUSLY FORMING AND
ARRANGING THE SEVEN HEAVENS TO PERFORM IN CONJUNCTION WITH
THE EARTH ACCORDING TO HIS RULES AND COMMANDS.
In the last verse of cited verses 3, ALLAH (SWT) Says, “… and We Have
Adorned the lowest heaven with lamps (illuminators) and for security, …”. In the Holy
Qur’an ALLAH (SWT) is Talking to mankind. Therefore, the lamps (illuminators) that
adorn the lowest heaven must be visible from the earth. As we all know, the illuminators
that make the night sky so beautiful are the stars. In fact, when we look at the sky, we are
looking at the lowest heaven.

I agree that the lowest heaven is the visible sky.

This verse gives us three pieces of information.
First, ALL THE STARS THAT WE CAN SEE AND OBSERVE NOW AND IN THE
FUTURE WITH MORE SOPHISTICATED EQUIPMENT ARE IN THE LOWEST
HEAVEN. WHAT WE CALL THE UNIVERSE, IS JUST THE LOWEST HEAVEN
OR A PART OF IT.

Now we are starting to do more serious isogesis. Neither Mohammed, nor his audience ever used telescopes. The stars are in the lowest heaven either as ornaments hung from the ceiling which is the visible sky, or holes allowing light form the second heaven. These are the interpretations that seem to make sense in historic context. There is no indication in the text that the heavens are meant to refer to things seen with telescopes the power of Hubble, as you will later state.

Second, the word “lamps” or “illuminators” is used to describe the stars. Lamps or
illuminators emit light due to fire or heat. In these few words, ALLAH (SWT) Gave us
the definition of a star. The star is a celestial object that emits light due to extreme heat
generated within. Generation of the tremendous amount of heat within the star could not
be achieved unless the star is formed of gas.

It is highly questionable whether the ancients associated all heat and light with each other – though possible. At any rate, you admit that the Arabic word is lamps. The orbs we know as stars do not fit a literal interpretation of a lamp.

Earlier in this chapter we have learned that
water existed before the creation of the earth and the heavens. Creation of the heavens
and the earth began when ALLAH (SWT) forcibly disintegrated a massive entity. Such
disintegration produced tremendous amount of heat (radiation), solid fragments and huge
clouds of dust. The heat caused the water to be transformed to its gaseous elements,
hydrogen and oxygen. The produced hydrogen and oxygen mixed with the clouds of dust.
The forcible disintegration resulted also in the formation of giant eddies and turbulence
within these clouds. The extreme heat produced by the forcible disintegration caused the
hydrogen atoms to go through a process known as “atomic fusion”. The fusion process
transforms the hydrogen to helium and releases tremendous energy in the form of heat.
The stars are believed to be formed from the swirling motion of the hydrogen
concentrated clouds and the triggering of the fusion process.
The third piece of information that we learn from the last verse of cited verses 3
comes from the word ‘security”. ALLAH (SWT) is Telling us that He Has Created the
stars, not only to make the lowest heaven look beautiful, but also for securing it. The
lowest heaven is a domain. Securing a domain implies two things. Keeping intruders out
of the domain, and to keep things within the domain in order.

The stars do neither in our universe – at least not in any way I am aware of.

It is known that the two major forces that control the dynamics of the universe (the
lowest heaven) are the gravitational force and the electromagnetic force.

WHOA! The Qur’an nowhere mentions anything like gravitational or electromagnetic force. Now we’re really getting deeper into isogesis.

The gravitational force controls the motion of matter (mass). The electromagnetic force
controls the transfer of energy, as well as the motion of electrically charged particles. The
stars, due to their ultra-high temperatures generate powerful electromagnetic waves.
Therefore, the stars are producers of both gravitational and electromagnetic forces. The
non-illuminating bodies, such as the planets produce gravitational forces only. In that
respect, the stars have more pronounced effect on the dynamics of the celestial objects
than the non-illuminating bodies (planets, moons, asteroids). The trillions and trillions of
stars and other celestial objects in the universe (the lowest heaven) are in continuous
motions. Their motions are controlled and kept in orderly manner by both the
gravitational and the electromagnetic forces. Therefore, the forces produced by the stars
ensure the continuation of the orderly behaviour of the lowest heaven, that is keeping the
lowest heaven secured as mentioned in cited verses 3. Also. very recently it has been discovered, that stars emit powerful electromagnetic gamma bursts, which are fatal for every form of life. The Devils of the Jinn as well of the humans are therefore able to only go to restricted regions in the lowest heaven (the universe).

Your science may be 100% accurate. The problem is that you have lost me already because I have absolutely no idea how you got from the text of the Qur’an you quoted to a discussion of gravitational and electromagnetic force! If this was the intent of the author of the Qur’an, then this author is not very clear in communication! If Allah is the sole author, we make Allah a very obtuse fellow. A better interpretation of your verses is that the intent is simply an invitation to humanity of every age to look at the beauty and order of the world around them and appreciate that the creator of all this is equally beautiful.

Cited Verses 4
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Do not you see how ALLAH Has Created seven heavens one above the other. And Made
the moon a light in them and Made the sun a glorious light source.
(part 29, Surat Nooh “Noah”)

Cited Verse 5
In The Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
And We Have Created above you seven layers and We Have not been unmindful of the
creation.
(part 18, Surat Al Mo’menoon “The Believers”)

In cited verse 4, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created seven heavens, one on
top of the other. In cited verse 5, ALLAH (SWT) Says that He Has Created above us
seven layers. From these two verses we learn that the seven heavens are defined
territories, each has its own identity. Since ALLAH (SWT) Has Created the earth first
then the heavens, therefore the first heaven is the lowest heaven. The lowest heaven
surrounds the earth from all directions. That is, the lowest heaven is a huge enclosure with a solid border
containing all the stars and the celestial bodies that surround the earth.

I agree that the intent of the author is to describe this. However, I deny that the intent of the author was that you would picture the universe the way we do today. The text is speaking only about the world we can see with the naked eye, and inviting us to believe that there is something beyond the naked eye. In the ancient world, “seven” was a mystical number that represented perfection. The choice of seven heavens says to the seventh century mind that there is a perfect world beyond the world we can see. This is the language of poetry and creative narrative more than it is science. By the way, so far we still have a world-view completely consistent with what the Christians were believing at that time.

The second heaven is a bigger enclosure containing its own territory and surrounding the lowest
heaven. The same for the third heaven and so on, up to the seventh heaven.
The creation proceeded in the outward direction from the earth, because the earth was created first. The earth was created first, then the solar system, then the galaxy (Milky Way).

Here I want you to stop again. There is absolutely nothing in the text to suggest that it was meant to be interpreted as referring to the Milky Way galaxy. If there were, certainly there would have been people trying to verify this claim. You are reading into the text, rather than drawing the intended meaning out of the text.

This indicates that our galaxy should be at the center of the universe.

No it does not. If it indicates anything, it indicates the earth is the center of the universe, as understood in the seventh century of the common era. That’s what people believed back then!

This is what Hubble observed at the late 1920’s. However, the astronomers came to false conclusions. They thought that the universe has no center, that every galaxy moves away from every other galaxy. They developed the ballon analogy. The universe should be imagined as a membrane of a ballon pumped up, that is center-less. Very recent observations proved this analogy to be false. It has been discovered very recently, that the expansion of the universe, which is also mentioned in Qur’an in Surat 51; Verse 49, is accelerating at a rate way too high to be explainable by the ballon analogy. The motion of the galaxies away from our galaxy must be unidirectional away from it. By unidirectional, it means that the speeds of the receding galaxies are function of only one variable ,i.e. function of distance only. This is in accordance with Hubble's law]. According to the Big Bang theory, the motion of the galaxies relative to ours must be function of three variables not one which is not the case. Hubble´s law is a proof that the earth was created first!
There has been discovered that there must be a kind of anti-gravitation-source at the outer edge of the universe, which causes the accelerating motion of the galaxies. THIS IS THE SOLID BORDER OF THE LOWEST HEAVEN, mentioned in Qur’an;

Now you’ve gone way too far. From the perspective of a literary scholar, this cannot possibly be the meaning of that text as intended by the author. If you insist the author is Allah alone (not writing THROUGH Mohammed’s human consciousness), then Allah should have been much more clear if he intended what you say. Within its historical context, the verses are referring to the visible sky as the lowest heaven, and the spiritual-theological meaning has to do with observing the beauty of creation, without worrying about the mechanics of its creation.

WHICH IS FORMED OF DARK MATTER AND ATTRACTS THE GALAXIES FROM ALL SIDES. THE NEARER THEY COME TO THE BORDER; THE FASTER THEY GET ATTRACTED.
It has become clear, that the universe must have a center. The false imagination of the universe having no center mainly was and is based on the observation of the NON-FLUCTUATING COSMIC BACKGROUND RADIATION. The radiation is equally spread all over the universe. The astronomers thought, that if the universe had a center, there must be a “hot-spot”, where the heat of the radiation is a bit higher (the point, where the big bang occurred). In fact, the non-fluctuating background radiation is just a proof that the creation processes have ended! The stars formed through the fusion processes of the hydrogen atoms to helium. When the stars were formed, ALLAH (SWT) Caused the extreme heat to vanish, and left only a necessary heat of 3 degrees K (cosmic background radiation).

Notice you are not able to quote from the Qur’an in so much of your commentary. This is because you are spending so much time explaining science that has little if anything to do with the sacred text.

From the Holy verses of Al-Qur’an we see NO contradiction to science, …

There is a contradiction between big bang theory as you describe it and the Qur'an. Many scientist still believe in big bang. But that’s besides the point, because I would concede the possibility that big bang is false. Elsehwere, you have claimed you are NOT trying to prove the Qur’an consistent with science. Yet, in the above statement, you are. Not only is your method of interpreting literature fallacious, but your ability to be internally consistent in writing is weak.

…,rather they are explaining the truth and moreover they explain the unexplained phenomena of the location of the dark matter, the accelerating motion of the outer galaxies, the fact that most of the gasses in the universe are hydrogen and helium, the question about the center of the universe, the functions of the stars, and why the cosmic background radiation is non-fluctuating.

What I see as a scholar of literature, rather than a scientist per se, is a world view that deals only with visible datum, and is really irreconcilable with modern science. That does not mean that the text is not inspired by Allah. Rather, it means that religious texts should be expected to address the eternal meaning and purpose of life, morality, community life, theological principles, and our hopes for eternal life. They should not be expected to reveal scientific truth, which is always time conditioned and changing.

From the Verses of Genesis we see several obvious contradictions to science. ALLAH (SWT) Knows the present, the past and the future. HE would never Have made statements of scientific nature in a revelation to mankind, which later turn out to be incorrect. Therefore, the words of Genesis CAN`T be considered as the direct or the inspired word of GOD!

First, I believe that in regards to the creation account as you described it, Genesis is quite consistent. However, I more strongly believe that you are demanding more of a religious texts than Allah wished to reveal. The Qur’an does not say what you say it does. Rather, it seems completely conditioned by the same Biblical world-view that influenced Europe in the same time period. You are reading more into the text than is there. If I am wrong about the world-view held by Mohammed, the best that can be said of your verses is that they are vague and can mean anything you want them to. If that’s true, then the words are meaningless. That’s a heck of a thing to say about words supposedly inspired by Allah.

ALLAH (SWT) Has sent down the Quran in order to make the truth clear. The early scribes have explained the six creation days incorrect in Genesis. Therefore, the Qur’an has explained them in a very clear manner, demonstrating the ultimate Knowledge of ALLAH (SWT).
It has to be mentioned that the cosmologists will never be able to find out exactly, what happened in the early universe, because the creation processes occured under other physical laws than those we know today. Their theories are entirely based on ASSUMPTIONS.

No. Your theories are entirely based on assumptions. For example, you assume that if Allah is going to reveal herself verbally, he will do so by revealing science. Why should she? You also assume that it is impossible that words from Allah addressed to a prior generation should be understood in the context of their culture and world-view. You claim the words must be scientifically true for all times. Why?

Does it not make more sense that Allah would reveal the REALLY important truths to an early generation in language they understood (including their world-view). Allah knows that the later generations will be smart enough realize that world-view was incorrect from a scientific perspective – but the REALLY important truths last forever. The REALLY important truths are prayer, relationship with Allah, community, moral behavior, Allah’s beauty, Allah’s mercy, Allah’s justice, etc….Why ASSUME Allah wished to give a science lesson?

The Qur’an is the Word of ALLAH (SWT) and therefore it contains the ultimate truth for all times.

But these truths aren’t science. Ultimate truths are always best expressed through poetry, creative narrative, story, parable, and so forth. That’s why I switched from a science major in college to a literature and theology major!

Peace and Blessing!

Jcecil3

[Dr Qaisar]

As-salaamu-alaikum, Bro.Hassan

Greetings to others.


Dear Bro.Hassan,

Please allow me to make some humble submissions with respect to your post above. My intention is not all meant as a correction to your post, but I have been obliged to make some needed clarifications to bring the Qur'anic meanings and interpretations of the relevant quoted verses to their factual positions.

First, please note the Qur'an does not specify that the Creations of the Heavens & the Earth and all between them (ie. the Universe) took a period of about 6000 LUNAR YEARS (or solar years, for that matter!). It would be rather erroneous to assume so, based on the Qur'anic verses mentioning that "a Day in the sight of God (Allah) is equivalent to a 1000 years of yours". These verses are not meant to be a universal generalisation that the word "Day" as used in some verses of the Qur'an is always meant to indicate a 1000 earth years (lunar or solar). No, where used in those verses, it refers to a time period in a restricted sense with respect to a paricular occasion which is known only to Allah, such as the time period in which the affairs were arranged ascend to Allah in a time period corresponding to a 1000 years of our reckoning. At another place in the Qur'an, Allah states that a "Day" corresponds to 50,000 years of our time (I don't recollect the exact verse number right now). Anyway, the phrase in Arabic, "sittati ayyaam", translated as "6 days" in English DOES NOT IMPLY 6000 earth years, lunar or solar!! Rather, the word, "Ayyaam" used in the Creation process denotes a (long) TIME PERIOD of unspecified duration; it could be thousands or millions or billions of years of whatever denomination, best known to Allah alone!!! It would be most advisable NOT to ascribe a fixed time frame on a matter best known by Allah Most High!! Our human knowledge is at best imprecise when dealing with the unknown. It would not be resonable to link two or more verses without a sound basis and arrive at a definite conclusion.

Secondly, with respect to verses 41:9-12 dealing with the Creation of Heavens & the Earth in 2, 4 & 2 days, PLEASE NOTE that the Qur'an does NOT mention explicitly that the Earth was the FIRST to be Created among ALL the Creations and that the Heavens were created after the Earth. Rather, reading those verses, it would imply that the process of Creation was continous and simultaneous ,rather than sequential (ie. the earth first and then the heavens). The statement that Allah made the earth in 2 days does not necessarily mean that the earth was the FIRST to be created among the constituents of the future Universe. Please reflect clearly that Allah states that the Earth and the Heavens were once joined together and were commanded to come apart or to be separated!! The fact that this forceful separation at the beginning of Creation of the Universe lead to an explosion like condition is what the Big Bang theory states at present.

Thirdly, neither the Qur'an nor the Big Bang theory states that the Earth or our Milkyway galaxy is close or near to the center of the Universe!! To assume that, then first we would have to known the approximate location of the center of the Universe, which as we all know is beyond the limited comprehension of us humans. In other words, for such a vast and possibly endless entity as the Universe, ANY POINT in space could
serve as the center or starting point of creation. Modern cosmology is not concerned about this fact but rather it is more practical to say the the sun is the center of the Solar System or there is a black hole at the center of the Milky Way or any other galaxy!

Fourthly, Hubble never stated that the earth is the center of the Universe. As you have correctly mentioned, the Law that bears his name deals only with the ever-expanding nature of the Universe and as a consequence, ALL galaxies are moving away from each other in ALL directions (the red-shift) and the farther a galaxy is from another one, the faster its receding motion!! Therefore, the motions of galaxies are NOT UNIDIRECTIONAL but in every possible direction in the Universe!!
Thus, the Universe is expanding in all possible directions and uniformly. This is testified in the Qur'an itself wherein Allah states that, "We have built the Heavens with Power and are ever- expanding it" (SEE the Qur'an for the verse number). Note: Jcecil & JBJ, there is no "reading into the text" or "isogesis" in the above-mentioned verse, but only a simple translation of the verse from the Qur'an into English. No commentary either!

Lastly, Bro. Hassan, which translation are you using?


TO JBJ:
With respect to V.18:86, the use of the phrase, "sun sets in a black sea" and its variations in other translations, it is here stated in a poetic way (though, the Qur'an as a whole is NOT an exercise in poetry!!) that the sun sets into a black sea or murky water or mud because all of us have "seen" the sun disappearing below the sea if we live near the coast or the sun setting below the horizon.
V.71:16 says "moon a light in them (heavens)" but does not state BETWEEN them. So you can see for yourself the fallacy of your statement that the moon is placed between the heavens. The Qur'an states that there are 7 heavens one above the other (it would also imply each one enveloping the other as in a series of shells) and that we can only see the lowest heaven & its contents ie. the stars, planets, galaxies, sun, moon etc. by the naked eye or with telescopes. We cannot see beyond the lowest heaven in any way.


Wa-salaam.
Dr.Qaisar

[JBJ]

Hi Dr. Quaisar,

I was very glad to see your last comments here, and I can agree with all of them. The Qur'an doesn't speak scientifically but in ways everyone can understand. This includes poetry, though of course the whole Book isn't to be taken figuartively. Too many Muslims and Christians try to take their Books for meaning more than they do, it's good to know you aren't among them. God bless!

JBJ

[vancouver]

The bible's version is correct if you look hard enough. There was water above the atmosphere. It fell down to earth in the flood of Noah's day. I believe you will find that Muhammad believed in the flood as did all the prophets after Noah. Jesus himself believed in the account of that flood for he existed then as an Angel. The six days were long periods of time. As far as the sun and moon etc on the 4th day- that is when they became apparent(they along with all the material universe were created before the days of 'creation'. All the material universe including the earth were created in the beginning, that is before the six days(long periods of time as the scriptures confirm we are still living in the seventh day) of preparing the earth for man and creating the earthly living things. The english word creation is one word whereas the meaning of the original words used could not really be covered by that one english word. The six days of creation has a different word for 'creation' to ''in the beginning God 'created' the heavens and the earth''. Both Abrahams son's would have known about the global flood. All civilizations have legends of their ancestors saved during a world-wide flood.