View Full Version : Islam Compared to Atheism
Netcurtains
09-03-2002, 10:12
Why is Islam better then Atheism (the current real world religion)?
Netcurtains
09-03-2002, 19:06
LAST EDITED ON 09-03-02 AT 06:15 PM (GMT)[p]
Hi,
This is a serious question. Not just for Islam but for ALL religions.
Take these 1999 UK prison statistics:
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison3.html
You will note that atheists make up just 0.02% of prisoners (in the general population people who seriously claim to be atheists make up about 7%) whereas Muslims make up nearly 6.5% of all prisoners (muslims make up about 4% of UK population), catholics 17.5% (catholics make up about 17% of the UK population) and Anglicans 41.7% of prisoners (I think they make up about that percentage of the UK population). There is nothing to suggest that organised religion is going to make you a better person - so why bother?
(weirdly Hindus and "fundamental" protestants along with quasi-christian "sects" (eg scientology) and atheists do seem to be particularly good at being "good").
what is the point?
LivingforChrist
10-03-2002, 06:45
There is a difference, in life, to saying you are a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist and actually living as one.
As a Christian I know a lot of people who say that they are a christian just because they go to church on Sunday and celebrate Christmas.
You probably also notice that much of America is very "christian" and yet our society advertises and promotes everything that goes against not only christianity, but many world religions as well.
So please do not take those statistics too seriously.
Netcurtains
10-03-2002, 10:31
LAST EDITED ON 10-03-02 AT 09:35 AM (GMT)[p]Your answer is weak:
USA figures:
Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%).
(source: www.holysmoke.org )
Using the lower figure of 8%, the fraction of atheists that are in prison is (0.00209 N)/(0.08 M), where N is the number of prisoners and M is the number of people in the general population. Similarly, the fraction of theists that are in prison is ((1-0.00209) N)/((1-0.08 ) M). The desired result is the ratio of these numbers, which is about 42. If we had used the mean value of 12% for the percentage of atheists in the general population, we would have found that theists are about 65 times more likely than atheists to end up in prison.
(source: www.freethought.freeservers.com )
LAST EDITED ON 10-03-02 AT 11:52 AM (GMT)[p]GROUNDWORK ON ISLAMIC PHILOSOPHY
An Examination of Issues in Epistemology, Metaphysics, and Philosophy of Religion in the Context of Modern Western Philosophy
MACKSOOD A. AFTAB B.A.
Department of Philosophy
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
Advisors:
Prof. Dr. Jim Joyce
Department of Philosophy
University of Michigan Ann, Arbor
Prof. Dr. Muhammad Al-Mahdi
Department of Ussuluddin (Philosophy)
International Islamic University, Malaysia
CONTENTS
Topics listed, accompanied by major philosophers discussed in each section.
INTRODUCTION 3
PHILOSOPHY AND ISLAM 6
ANALYTICAL ARGUMENTS
COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS 9
Aristotle, Al-Kindi, Ibn Rushd, Al-Ghazzali,
Liebniz, Iqbal, & Craig
TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS 15
Paley, Sober, Alkindus, Iqbal, Russell, & Kant
ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS 22
Anselm, Descartes, Kant, & Avicenna
ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
PROBLEM OF EVIL 26
Platinga, Al-Ghazzali , & Iqbal
ARGUMENTS FROM RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE 32
Al-Ghazzali, Al-Attas, & Iqbal
CONCLUSION 42
BIBLIOGRAPHY 44
See the entire article on:
http://www.ais.org/~maftab/philosophy.htm
Also another good (pro-faith) articles:
http://www.hyahya.org/m_articles.php
Netcurtains
10-03-2002, 13:17
LAST EDITED ON 10-03-02 AT 06:24 PM (GMT)[p]Thankyou for your reply.
As you are probably aware there are athiest replies to all of them.
I will post the athiest replies - because what I am REALLY interested in is: ARE THERE any good replies to the athiest replies (eg STAGE 2 versions of the above arguments).
Netcurtains
10-03-2002, 14:51
Here is a summary of the counter arguments:
http://www.freethought.freeservers.com/reason/misc.html
Note the "big bang theory" has now been superceded by Super-strings and "big gravity" which of course needs no first cause event (such as god).
The 11th Dimension (my deleted Jinn thread) was really about this topic.
STAGE 2:
What an athiest wants is some evidence. If the theology behind a religion is correct then you would expect most of the planet to see that relgion is great and better then athiesm. To an AVERAGE Western persons mind islam or Hinduism does not seem to make people nicer of better behaved or better educated or healthier then athiests. To an AVERAGE Muslim or Hindu (I guess) the West looks decadent. So each relgion SUCCESSFULLY disproves the other and thus logically there is no god?
I can see that some people are drawn to Buddhism as Buddhists appear "nice" especially since they are vegetarians (which obviously is a kindness to animals) but of course Buddhism does not require a god.
A very intresting question'
'God doesn't exist!'
> http://www.islamic.org.uk/gde.html
I will provide some good links to help you!! I am a bit busy, so i will not be able to reply, so this question by you netty, basically, islam provides the basic essentials to survive, practical solutions with long term success.
You might say this is a lot from me, but it is a fact, as one scholar told me the other day, you worship something, Everyone worships somthing. IF you dont worship god you worship something else. Could be your desires or your money e.t.c. So islam has established itself upon the world and it will provide comfort for any mother, father, doctor, a slave, a techinian or even a internet user like you. So islam is a way of life not a religion.....
Sadiq!
-------------------------------
"Oh Allah, enrich me with knowledge, adorn me with gentleness, honour me with piety and beautify me with health", Aameen
Netcurtains
10-03-2002, 15:38
LAST EDITED ON 10-03-02 AT 03:53 PM (GMT)[p]We all "worship" something.
Yes but in your short list you put down alternative(s) to god that were negatives - eg money.
What an AVERAGE adult person who does not believe in God actually worships is his family - his Holy Trinity if you like (mum dad and the kids). He or she wants the best for their family. Thus they individually work hard and collectively vote for better education, policing and hospitals. There is no need for god to enter into it. However, if god fearing people seem to be nicer and or more successful then athiests then of course the athiests (who want the best for their families) will become thiests.
If god exists why doesn't he or she come down and have a chat with us all? Perhaps he did as Christians claimed but did he? and if not why not?
Its no good saying God can't take human form as on PAGE ONE of the TORAH it says "Let Us Make Man In Our Image, according to our likeness"...so god created man in his own image, in the image of god he created him; male and female" (Genesis Ch1 v26).
LivingforChrist
10-03-2002, 19:03
Net,
what then, would you say the meaning of life is?
Netcurtains
10-03-2002, 19:14
The Future.
Jesus described himself over and over and over again as "the son of man".
>The Future.
>
>Jesus described himself over and over
>and over again as "the
>son of man".
Ezekiel did that too (see Ezekiel ch. 3), or at least he is described as "the son of man".
And what's the logic or the relation between "The Future" and "The son of man" ?
I don't get it.
>Here is a summary of the
>counter arguments:
>
>http://www.freethought.freeservers.com/reason/misc.html
The site you gave is written with the christian reader in mind, the site I posted is, is slightly different than you thought.
The "counter arguments" given on the freethought site doesn't give a good or complete answers to the comments made on the sites I had posted.
>Note the "big bang theory" has
>now been superceded by Super-strings
>and "big gravity" which of
>course needs no first cause
>event (such as god).
>The 11th Dimension (my deleted Jinn
>thread) was really about this
>topic.
According to who ?
>STAGE 2:
>
>What an athiest wants is some
>evidence. If the theology behind
>a religion is correct then
>you would expect most of
>the planet to see that
>relgion is great and better
>then athiesm............ thus logically
>there is no god?
Everyone wants some evidence, not only the atheist but also the theist wants evidence from the atheist of his view.
The question is can he give it and r they reliable ?
With how many theories did the atheist come to explain how the universe work and how it originate ?
How many atheists support the same view ?
How reliable is human knowledge ? (read my first link).
>I can see that some people
>are drawn to Buddhism as
>Buddhists appear "nice" especially since
>they are vegetarians (which obviously
>is a kindness to animals)
>but of course Buddhism does
>not require a god.
I dont know so much about buddhism, but "being nice to animals" cannot be used as an argument to follow a religion. (Islam also to be nice to animals...even more than that....be nice to every creation of God ! -see Animals in Islam: http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/an/an1.htm#intro ).
Netcurtains
11-03-2002, 00:32
LAST EDITED ON 11-03-02 AT 00:13 AM (GMT)[p]
From an offical catholic web site:
"
The employment of the expression in the Gospels is very remarkable. It is used to designate Jesus Christ no fewer than eighty-one times -- thirty times in St. Matthew, fourteen times in St. Mark, twenty-five times in St. Luke, and twelve times in St. John.
"
A goal of any good parent is to help make your children better people then you are yourself. Thus, in this way, each generation that passes gets slightly better then the previous generation (in theory).
The phrase "son of man" is clearly delibrately ambiguous and thus could delibrately have many meanings. One such meaning (of many possible meanings) is clearly a reference to the future of mankind - the son of man.
I seriously think TRUE religion is to bring up your family as best as you can. If mankind has any real hope of heaven the most likely (if remote) candidate lies in the future.
Indeed Eziekel - son of Man - and what a strange "science fiction" type tale Eziekel is - to say the least! Perhaps you can see what I'm driving at.
Eziekel starts off with lots of weirdness and many references to "son of man". It ends with THREE words "YHWH (G_d) is there".
Netcurtains
14-03-2002, 23:42
Hi,
This was on UK TV today:
"Dispatches Channel 4 at 9pm A Dispatches special,Trouble At The Mosque,which investigates financial iregularity,intimidation and sexual abuse in some British mosques".
This type of stuff sometimes happens at Christian churches. I know what Christians think of christian clerics like this but what do Muslims think of this type of goings on in Mosques?
>Hi,
Peace to you!
>This was on UK TV today:
>
> "Dispatches Channel 4 at 9pm A Dispatches special,Trouble
>At The Mosque,which investigates financial
>iregularity,intimidation and sexual abuse in some British
>mosques".
I cannot view this program, so bad luck to me....
>
>This type of stuff sometimes happens at Christian churches.
>I know what Christians think of christian clerics like this
>but what do Muslims think of this type of goings on in
>Mosques?
As you said, it does happen in the churches, if it happens in the mosques then, is it good?. No one is perfect, there is no priest who knows everything and is always 'good', in other words, similar to muslim scholars, there are good ones and bad ones.
The good scholars who speak the truth will be less in number and very hard to find, and there are many people, who are muslims, nowadays who learn a little, but seem to 'think' they know everything, a problem, that can be solved and not avoided.
So, basically, the problem is not just in other religions, it happens... and inshallah the mosques will be imporved for the religion not just to please some doners or the council of the city. Would you paint the church to yellow, just to please the council at that country?...
BinZiad.!
Netcurtains,
Your right. The point has nothing to do with these statistics. The point is, "What is Truth?" The same response that Pontius Pilate had to Jesus' reply. If the Truth is really the Truth then it is an objective reality regardless of how many atheists, and how many 'religous' people are in prison. That is why the claims of religion and the claims of the atheists matter. Truth makes them matter, for better or worse.
Are there consequences to believing something that isn't true? Is there Truth? Is there anything beyond subjectivism? Is there life after death? Do I care? Has Jesus really overcome the world? How did the universe come to be here.?
These are questions that the Truth can answer, but no one MUST care about Truth. Although anyone who would become an atheist based on UK prison statistics, may just be desperate enough to knock until the door of Truth is open!
Your original question was to Muslims. I am not responding to that. You opened up this point as a challange to all religions. It is as a Christian that I am responding, and certainly not as a defender of religion in general. Incedentally, I believe that neither
organized nor disorganized religion will necessarily make you a better person. :)
-Jared
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