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[updated:LAST EDITED ON 14-03-02 AT 07:31 PM (GMT)]that he wrote the Qor'an on the basis of the Bible, and others claimed that he was only out for worldly respect and properties. Each sincere Muslimheart winces from these words, but only few muslims strive for giving answer to these false lies. Before we look at some of these lies, we listen to the words of Allah Prasied and Exalted is He, in Surah An-nisa, aya 170, wherein He warns mankind due His Mercy:
"O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allah: believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allah is All-knowing, All-wise."
Our Lord, the All-knowing, the All-wise, tells us here on a mild way to believe in the Message of Mohammed(pbuh), because he has come in truth from Allah. And in case we don't believe, verily to Allah belongs all things in the heavens and on earth!
With this our Creator says: "I'm so rich that the entire universe belongs to Me, so I don't need you and your faith in Me! If you don't believe, than you will only harm yourselves..."
However, through all ages there have been sick people who stroke to the wind and gave all their blood, sweat and tears to prove that Mohammed(pbuh) should be a false prophet. This is a phenomenon, which existed yet as soon as the Prophet of Allah(pbuh) began his preaching in Mecca, and continue to this day. In the Qor'an, in Sura Sad, aya 4, we can read that the enemies of the Prophet in Mecca already said: "...This is a sorcerer telling lies!".
These words are not only from that time, but still exist to this day. However, these enemies of among the Jews and Christian missionaries have never could come with evidence, and that's why they used the lies and false imputations to convince their public. They couldn't tell something else than that our beloved Prophet(pbuh) was a lying sorcerer, because how easy is it to call someone a liar as soon as you don't have any prove !
A prove for this we can see in the translation of the Qor'an of the Englisman George Sale from 1734, who admits in his preface yet to be a rigid protestant, who calls the Qor'an "a falshood in scripture" !
With his prejudiced pen he also fell further into lying and perversion, because he had no further prove to build up his false imputations. So he had distored for example the translation of aya 21, of sura Ar-room, which sounds with a good translation something like this: "And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, (li-teskunuw ilayhaa)..."
These Arabic words: "li-teskunuw ilayhaa", cannot be translated other than: "that ye may dwell in tranquillity with her", just like her above, or "that ye may find calmness with her".
However, this liar, George Sale, translated this aya as follow: "And of His signs another is, that He had created for you, out of yourselves, wives that YE MAY COHABIT WITH THEM..."
"Cohabit", which he uses here, means according to all the leading English dictionaries such as "Reader's Digest Universal Dictionary" and the "Oxford's" the following: "to live together in a sexual relationship when you're not married legally."
This false translation was used of course to call our beloved Prophet(pbuh) a womanizer or other similar names, which we can still hear nowadays.
The first question which we can ask to these critics among the jews and christians is: "What is so impossible to the fact that Allah has sent the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh)? He had already preceded hundreds of inspirated and prophets, hadn't He? And was their fundamental message not always the same ?" In contrary to their lies, we can really come with strong, constructive answers. But when the faucet with lies is already open for more then 1400 years then it is of course impossible to handle all the points in a single khotbah whom the opponents of the Truth have quoted and threw up as barricades. Not only as a barricade between them and us, but also as a barricade between themselves and their hearts, between themselves and their Creator, and between themselves and the Paradise. If they were looking truly for the truth, then Allah would have guided them from the darkness to the light, but unfortunately the most of them are so rusted in their blind faith and centuries old traditions of insulting the Islam and his Prophet(pbuh), that Allah increases the disease in their hearts, because they are looking self for the disease each time. Just like Allah says in surah Al-Baqara: "In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves)".
This khotbah is then also not mentioned for those who already close their eyes and ears for healthy proves and arguments, because they are the ones who judge someone to the gallows without a lawsuit occured at all, and what is more unjust than that ?
This speech is mentioned for those who wants to open their eyes to see, and use their mind to think. Allah says to us in surah Al-Balad: "Have We not made for him a pair of eyes? And a tongue, and a pair of lips? And shown him the two highways?"
O you who look and see! Look to the light of the Truth! O you who listen and hear! Listen to the words of Aisha, the wife of the Prophet(pbuh), when she told about the first revelation which was sent to the illiterate from the desert, our beloved Prophet(pbuh) on a night in the month Ramadan. In a hadith, which is longer, she tells about the moment while the Prophet(pbuh) was meditating in the cave Hiraa' outside Mecca: "The Angel came to him and said: "Read!" He said: "I can't read". Then he (Djibryl/Gabriel) squeezed me and jammed me so hard that I couldn't suffer it anymore. He let me go then and asked me again to read, and I said: "I can't read". Upon that he squeezed and jammed me for the second time so hard, that I couldn't take it anymore. He let me go and asked once again to read, but again I said: "I can't read". Upon that he squeezed for the third time and jammed me, and let me go and said (see surah Al-'Alaq): "Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth, Createth man from a clot. Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teacheth by the pen, Teacheth man that which he knew not..."
On this, trembling with fear the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) returned with it (the revelation). He went to Khadidjah and said: "Cover me! Cover me!" So she covered him, till his fear was gone" (delivered by Al-Bukhari).
Till now the hadith, which is longer than this just as I said, but I made a point here where I want to go deeper in with you.
First we see here the first common accepted fact that the Prophet(pbuh) couldn't read. Keep this good for a while in the back of your head, because I will return later on this point inshalaah. The second, we see that fear and panic seizes him after this event. It was not something what this calm person had asked for, but it was something which was laid on to him; he was chosen by his Lord as a Messenger. It was absolutely not his nature to attract attention and stay in the interest. So we can read in a reliable delivery from Bukhari and Muslim: "Abu Sa'id al-Khudri has said: "The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) was more shy then a virgin behind his veil".
To emphasize this point more we can look to the following delivery of At-Tabari and Ibn Hishaam (and Bukhari has a similar delivery too):
"After mentioning the coming of the Revelation, the Messenger of Allâh(P) said: "I have never abhorred anyone more than a poet or a mad man. I can not stand looking at either of them. I will never tell anyone of Quraish of my Revelation. I will climb a mountain and throw myself down and die. That will relieve me. I went to do that but halfway up the mountain, I heard a voice from the sky saying ‘O Muhammad! You are the Messenger of Allâh(P) and I am Gabriel.’ I looked upwards and saw Gabriel in the form of a man putting his legs on the horizon. He said: ‘O Muhammad You are the Messenger of Allâh(P) and I am Gabriel.’ I stopped and looked at him. His sight distracted my attention from what I had intended to do. I stood in my place transfixed. I tried to shift my eyes away from him. He was in every direction I looked at. I stopped in my place without any movement until Khadijah sent someone to look for me..."
Tell me, is this the reaction of a man who is out for fame or someone who is looking for attention? It is ironic to see that especially the Christians, who made a god of the prophet Jesus(pbuh) by themselves, accuse the prophet Muhammed(pbuh) of that he was out for personal worship !
If that was so he had lined himself up just like the false prophets, and made his followers believe that he was a "son of Allah", or that they had to give all their properties to him to obtain the Paradise. But when we study the practice, then we see exactly the opposite; in a very reliable delivery, delivered by Bukhari and Muslim, we read that on the day when the Prophet's son died when he was 18 months old, a solar eclipse took place. Upon this people said: "The sun has eclipsed because of the death of Ibrahim".
When the Prophet(pbuh) heard this, he said (to remove the misunderstanding): "The sun and the moon are truly two signs of Allah; they eclipse not because of someone's death, neither because of someone's life (birth). So when you see them (the eclipse), call then Allah and make prayers till the eclipse has past".
O Allah bless our honest Prophet! He never distorted Allah's message for his own profit, no, he warned his followers time on time not to worship him! On a other very reliable delivery, deliverd by Bukhari and Muslim, he has said: "Do not exaggerate with me (or exaggerate in praising me) as the Christians exaggerated with 'Isa the son of Maryam. I am nothing but a slave. So say: slave of Allah and His messenger."
Tell me, o critic, are these the words of a "false prophet", who was out for selfworship ? Or was he maybe out for money and property? Truly, our beloved prophet(pbuh) is removed far away from your lies and imputations! In a hadith, deliverd by Bukhari, we can read that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) has said: "Perish the slave of Dinar, Dirham, Qatifa (thick soft cloth), and Khamisa (a garment), for if he is given, he is pleased; otherwise he is dissatisfied."
Are these the words of a "false prophet" who is out for money and properties?! And these were not only words without deeds, but this was also what the prophet(pbuh) has brought to the practice. In a hadith delivered by Muslim, we read that Nu'maan ibn Bashir has said: "I saw that your Prophet (may peace be upon him) (at times) could not find even an inferior quality of the dates with which he could fill his belly". And Sa'd ibn Abi-Waqqaas has said, in a hadith, deliverd by Bukhari and Muslim: "Im the first Arab who throw a spear in Allah's Way. We fought side to side with the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) when our only food existed of the leafs of the Hubba- and Samortrees. The excrement of some of us looked like goats without any connection".
And the list of proves goes on and on, and till now I have given you only reliable ahadith. One who doubts about the reliability of it is allowed to come with arguments, and afterwards I will show him thereafter how accurate and careful the hadith-collectors were with their work.
Even close to his death, in the time when whole Arabia was under his control, he didn't enrich himself with big quantities of camels, dates, incense, gold or slaves, but he suffered a simple life and understood that this life with all her properties was only a test of Allah. In his lifestory we can read that a day before the death of the prophet(pbuh), he gave his seven dinar who he owned, to charity and his weapons to his followers as a gift. Thus when it was night, Aisha had to borrow some oil from the neighbours to kindle her lantern. Even his armor was given in pledge to a Jew, in exchange for a quantity of grain. Tell me o critic, where are the palaces with 25 rooms, where are the marble floors and golden candlesticks? Where are the caviar and the stewed goose-livers ?
For the first time in the history the treasury was considered as a collective possession, and not as the private possession of the ruler. Also the Khulafaa ar-Rashidin, or the Rightguided Kalifs who followed him, continued this example, even when they ruled whole Arabia, Persia, Syria, Egypt and further after the death of the Prophet(pbuh). For example it is well-known that the kalif 'Ali ibn Abu Talib' wore clothes with sewed patches on it, thus no silken coats and golden crowns.
How is it possible then that a person, who has never learnt to read or write, left a book behind what is the top when we talk about the arabic language usage? Through ages, and till nowadays, is the Arabic language with her grammar even based on the Qor'an!
There are some sceptics who say: "Why should Muhammed(pbuh) incite his followers to learn reading, and stay self illiterate?
My answer is: "The Prophet(pbuh) didn't need books to learn about economy, theology, history, biology, the Arabic language, physics and many other things what can be found in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. He was namely taught by His Lord self! The All-hearing, All-knowing, who knows about the hidden and the manifest. And since nobody of us can state that he has such a contact with Allah, we shall, like ordinary people, have to read books and follow lessons on school, just as the Islam wants from us". This fact thus, that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) couldn't read and write, makes it more improbable that he should have written the Qor'an by himself. And how could he give answers in detail to the questions of Jews and Christians, when he had never read a bible? There are some sceptics who have stated that the Qor'an should mostly be based on the Bible, but it is an established fact that the first Arabic version of the Old Testament appeared just about 900 AC, thus that is over 260 years after his death, and that the first Arabic version of the New Testament just appeared about 1616 AC! So about which Bible are you talking then, when you say that he took things over from it (if he could read an write although)? It is also a historical fact that the region around Mecca was not achieved yet by christian missionaries in the time of Muhammed(pbuh), as like such as the "New Catholic Encyclopedia" has even mentioned.
There was no church or a synagoge to acknowledge in or around Mecca, where Muhammed(pbuh) should have learnt about the contents of their books. Yes, there were some people here and there who knew about the teachings of the previous prophets(pbut), but they were only a very small minority, without prayerhouses or scriptures. Yes, some Jews lived in Medina, but he has been there only once before the beginning of his prophethood, and he was six years old then. It is ridiculous to state that a boy of six years old should have acquired deep knowledge about Jewish scriptures, and that in couple of days, and thereafter should come with this 34 years later. If he had travelled back and forth yet on a later age between those two cities, his opponents should, who were constantly spying him, really notice that. A trip between those two cities is nowadays in couple of hours approachable with a car, but in that time it was a trip between deserts and mountains, wherefore man needed two weeks! It is thus not possible that he should went now and then without being perceived to Medina to learn about Judaism. It is also important to note that his opponents among the Meccans have never stated this.
Yes, it is true that he had emigrated later from Mecca to Medina, but in that time his revelation was already begun for 13 years. Besides that the biggest parts about 'aqidah, like faith in Allah and in the Hereafter were already revealed. And it is even so that the Jewish scribes, like 'Abdullah ibn Salaam converted to the Islam when the Prophet(pbuh) had arrived to Medina, because he recognized the Prophet(pbuh) who was promissed in their scriptures. Furthermore the Qor'an contradicts the most Jewish and Christian faith-cases, in stead of that they were taken over gratuitously.
We know that the Prophet of Allah (pbuh) left to Syria for Khadidjah at the age of 25, where a lot of christians were living. But it is most improbable that he should have made thoroughgoing discussions with Jews and Christians, while he was busy with his caravan. Of course he had to return in a fixed time, because he was working by order of Khadidjah and he had thus not all the time in the world to withdraw himself to a monastry. To gain a deep knowledge about their scriptures he should have needed a study of many years. Furthermore we can ask ourselves why the Prophet(pbuh) showed up with this about 15 years later, at the age of 40. Christians and Jews state that the Qor'an should be a copy of the bible, because a lot of stories should be the same, but is that so? The bible speaks in Genesis and Exodus about a "god" who can get tired and sleeps, but where is this "god" in the Qor'an? Even so much: The Qor'an teaches us that Allah even doesn't look like to nothing or nobody of His creation, and that He is far exalted above human and animal characteristics like sleep or tiredness. The bible speaks in Genesis, Judges and Exodus about a "god" who has regret about His desicions, what should mean that He was ignorant at the moment of His desicions! Where is this picture of God in the Qor'an? The bible tells us that the noble Prophet Lut(pbuh) should have slept with his daughters, or that Harun(pbuh) should have worshipped a golden calf! Where can man find these lies about the Prophets in the Qor'an? ......And the list goes on and on.
These are some points of the truth about the true Prophet(pbuh), who received a true revelation.
That revelation, of which enormously intelligent and good educated people had to admit through ages that it couldn't be written by a human. Even nowadays we see a lot of unbelieving scholars and professors who embraced the islam, after they were confronted with the contents of the Qor'an. O sceptic, have you ever taken the Qor'an yet and read it with an open mind? Or do you only judge without knowing anything about the matter? Professor Keith Moore, one of the most leading scientists about embryology, and active at the University of Toronto, is one of those scholars. When some ayat from the Qor'an and some ahadith were shown to him about the development of the human in the womb, he had the following to say: "...It is clear to me that these verdicts should have come from Allah, or God, to Muhammed(pbuh), because almost everything what is known about this subject, was discoverd many ages later. This is for me an evidence that Muhammed(pbuh) should have been a Messenger of Allah (pbuh)".
Or take the example of professor Tejatat Tejasen from Thailand, or the famous German geologist Alfred Kroner from the Mainz University, or the well-known professor Armstrong of NASA, or all the many other high educated, intelligent persons who at least had to admit that the facts which they saw in the ayaat and ahadith could impossibly come from a human origin. O sceptic, they are the people who recognized the signs of Allah through many years of science and research. When will you open your eyes, and put your pride aside?
This is the truth about the true Prophet(pbuh), who brought a true revelation and nothing more than that.
May Allah fortify our faith in Him and His prophet(pbuh) and take the doubt away from those who are in doubt. O Allah, clean our hearts from the hypocrisy and our tongs from lies!
Yaa Rahman, Yaa Rahim, support our brothers the Mudjahidin who struggle on Your Way, everywhere on the world, and make them steadfast and patient on Your Way!
Was-salaam alaikum wa rahmatullah.
Abdul-Jabbar.
I hope that a lot of people will read this post, because I spend many hours to translate it.
Hi JaLaal,
It sounds like you're giving non-Muslims a pretty bad wrap, but I agree there have been many who've deserved it. But let me clarify my own position:
Who is Muhammad?
You're stemming from the arguement that Muhammad was either a liar, insane, or a prophet, an arguement many Christians make about Jesus. There is a fourth possibility that isn't mentioned in this, that Muhammad had a demonic connection which is what most Christians give to Muhammad. This then answers several of your questions: Muhammad didn't need to read or write, his demon told him his revelations. Muhammad wasn't a liar, he believed who he heard to really be God. Muhammad wouldn't be swayed by riches or power, fame, etc, for he truly believed himself to be a prophet.
The idea is backed up by Muhammad's conditions during revelation, red face, ringing in his ears, hard breathing, falling to the ground, shaking, eyes wide open, trembling lips, drooling, sweating, made camel noises. Men with demon connections at Jesus' time were identified by similar siezures and foaming mouths.
I'm not saying this is true, but it's a theory brought up my non-Muslims that seems to answer your questions.
God gets tired?
The parts in the Torah you refered to don't mean God gets tired, they mean he rested from creating the world. "Rested" is just another word for "stop," for example, the car is at rest.
Lies about prophets?
I'm not sure where you think Lut was supposed to sleep with his daughters, or Harun to worship an idol. What are you basing those from?
Scientific miracles in the Qur'an?
Hassanalmuslim has brought up this point several times, concerning astronomy, embryology, and geology. Each time the conclusions have been that the Qur'an has been read into, instead of out of, and that other parts contradict science. It seems that the Qur'an is being poetic, not scientific. Dr. Qaisar has agreed, at least in part. For Keith Moore, there is an article concerning some of his work at http://www.answering-islam.de/Responses/It-is-truth/chap03.htm
Muhammad's Jewish/Christian knowledge
From what is in the Qur'an and ahadith, we wouldn't expect Muhammad to know very much about these religions. The only Jewish/Christian explanations are belief in one God, stories of prophets, food restrictions, and a little more. Besides that, Waraqa is said to be Christian, his (supposed) wife Maria was Christian and his wife Safiyya was Jewish.
Blind and ignorant
Some Christians are blinded against Islam, but I humbly say that I am not. If I've given any views that biased against Islam please tell me so that I can correct them.
You also said that as a result, they only attacks made against Islam have fallen far short. That may or may not be true. I've been told by the admin not to make any statements that would argue against the validity of Islam, so I won't. If you want to discuss this you can email me at HamasheachYeshua@hotmail.com where we can talk freely. If Muhammad truly is Rasul Allah, then you have nothing to lose by talking, and I'll have eternal life to gain.
God bless!
JBJ
Hi Asif!
Thanks for the site, I'll have to check it out.
No, it doesn't seem strange at all that people like Waraqa convereted, many other Christians have become and Muslim and vice versa.
I wasn't implying that the Qur'an was in any stealing from the Bible, I think any Christian saying that is missing something. I meant that if Muhammad was, he had the means to do it, but I'll look at your site.
Lut was immoral, but the Bible in no way justifies this. Leviticus 21 in the Torah says plainly that relations with family members is unallowable. The Bible records Lut's actions as a fact of history. But reading the story, Genesis 19, it is his daughters who commit the sin by getting him too drunk to know. "He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up."
I think the issue is more that Muslims believe prophets like Lut are sinless. The Bible does not give Lut the title of prophet, nor insist that all prophets are sinless, only Jesus.
The Christian arguement I mentioned was invented to "prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about (Jesus): I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God" as the most well know developer of it said. It wasn't meant towards 1st century Jews. It isn't strange at all that they would make this claim. There is a Christian response for that also, but there's obviously no need for it on a Muslm forum. You seem to be suggesting that because Jesus and Muhammad had demon accusations, then if one is a prophet the other is too. By that logic, we'd have to accept gurus and Satanists as prophets too.
But before dismissing this idea as something made by an ignoramus, shouldn't you give it a proper response? If it's so stupid, such a response should be very easy.
Salaam,
JBJ
The subject deserves more time of course, but here's an interesting quote by the Muslim Ali Dashti:
"A process of this kind had begun in Mohammad's mind during his childhood and had prompted him to meet and talk with Christian monks and priests on his Syrian journey instead of spending all his time on commercial business. On his way back, through the lands of Medyan and the Ad and Thamud, he had heard the legends of the local people. In Mecca itself he had exchanges visits with followers of the scriptural religions. He had sat for hours in Jabr's shop near the hill of Marwa, and had been in constant touch with Khadija's cousin Waraqa b. Nawfal, who is said to have translated a part of the New Testament into Arabic. All these experiences are likely to have turned the ever-present disquiet in his inner mind into turmoil."
On the cited website about Waraqa, the author doesn't give any evidence (that I could see) to prove that Waraqa had no influence on Muhammad. The only thing close is that Waraqa died soon after Muhammad's first revelation. However, a lot could have been told to Muhammad in several days. It would also be assumed that Waraqa being Khadija's cousin, and the family being very important, Muhammad would have met with him previously, and, because they each had interest in religion, the topic of Judaism and Christianity would have come up.
In regards to Waraqa's beliefs, the quoted hadith the site refers to reveals some things. Waraqa believed in the Gospel; if a Muslim is to say Waraqa was a true follower of Isa, it must be said too that the Gospel is to be believed. And why would Muhamad, the source of Aisha's narration, or Aisha think it important to mention that Waraqa translated the Gospel to Hebrew and Arabic if the Gospel was full of lies as Muslims say it is now?
The author brings up a good point, on what authority did Waraqa identify Muhammad's prophethood? I think it's been explained already that no further prophet is mentioned in the Gospel (except the anti-Christ, a false prophet).
Waraqa makes the connection with Gabriel, but he isn't mentioned in the Torah or Gospel as talking with either Moses or Jesus. In fact, no angels are recorded as giving God's message at all. Moses is said to have spoken with God face to face, and Jesus being God would know everything he was to teach on his own. Waraqa seems to have no basis for Gabriel's status, but it's interesting to see that Muhammad gives the same status to the angel, as if adopting Waraqa's baseless idea. I'll have to spend more time on it to understand it better. Let me know what you think.
JBJ
An excerpt from "The Amazing Qor'an"
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The Source of the Qur'an
Another example of people's use of this weak stance can be found in the Makkans' explanation of the source of Muhammad's message. They used to say, "The devils bring Muhammad that Qur'an!" But just as with every suggestion made, the Qur'an gives the answer. One verse (Surah Al-Qalam 68: 51-52) in particular states:
"And they say, 'Surely he is possessed [by jinn],' but it is not except a reminder to the worlds."
Thus it gives an argument in reply to such a theory. In fact, there are many arguments in the Qur'an in reply to the suggestion that devils brought Muhammad (s) his message. For example, in the 26th chapter Allah (SWT) clearly affirms:
"No evil ones have brought it [i.e., this revelation] down. It would neither be fitting for them, nor would they be able. Indeed they have been removed far from hearing." (Surah ash-Shu'ara 26:210-212)
And in another place (Surah an-Nahl 16:98) in the Qur'an, Allah (SWT) instructs us:
"So when you recite the Qur'an seek refuge in Allah from Shaytan, the rejected."
Now is this how Satan writes a book? He tells one, "Before you read my book, ask God to save you from me?" This is very, very tricky. Indeed, a man could write something like this, but would Satan do this? Many people clearly illustrate that they cannot come to one conclusion on this subject. On one hand, they claim that Satan would not do such a thing and that even if he could, God would not allow him to; yet, on the other hand, they also believe that Satan is only that much less than God. In essence they allege that the Devil can probably do whatever God can do. And as a result, when they look at the Qur'an, even as surprised as they are as to how amazing it is, they still insist, "The Devil did this!"
Thanks be to Allah (SWT), Muslims do not have that attitude. Although Satan may have some abilities, they are a long way separated from the abilities of Allah. And no Muslim is a Muslim unless he believes that. It is common knowledge even among non-Muslims that the Devil can easily make mistakes, and it would be expected that he would contradict himself if and when he wrote a book. For indeed, the Qur'an states (Surah an-Nisa 4:82):
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."
Mythomania
In conjunction with the excuses that non-Muslims advance in futile attempts to justify unexplainable verses in the Qur'an, there is another attack often rendered which seems to be a combination of the theories that Muhammad (s) was crazy and a liar. Basically, these people propose that Muhammad was insane, and as a result of his delusion, he lied to and misled people. There is a name for this in psychology. It is referred to as mythomania. It means simply that one tells lies and then believes them. This is what the non-Muslims say Muhammad (s) suffered from. But the only problem with this proposal is that one suffering from mythomania absolutely cannot deal with any facts, and yet the whole Qur'an is based entirely upon facts. Everything contained in it can be researched and established as true. Since facts are such a problem for a mythomaniac, when a psychologist tries to treat one suffering from that condition, he continually confronts him with facts.
For example, if one is mentally ill and claims, "I am the king of England," a psychologist does not say to him "No you aren't. You are crazy!" He just does not do that. Rather, he confronts him with facts and says, "O.K., you say you are the king of England. So tell me where the queen is today. And where is your prime minister? And where are your guards?" Now, when the man has trouble trying to deal with these questions, he tries to make excuses, saying "Uh... the queen... she has gone to her mother's. Uh... the prime minister... well he died." And eventually he is cured because he cannot deal with the facts. If the psychologist continues confronting him with enough facts, finally he faces the reality and says, "I guess I am not the king of England."
The Qur'an approaches everyone who reads it in very much the same way a psychologist treats his mythomania patient. There is a verse in the Qur'an (Surah Yunus 10:57) which states:
"O mankind, there has come to you an admonition [i.e., the Qur'an] from your Lord and a healing for what is in the hearts - and guidance and mercy for the believers."
At first glance, this statement appears vague, but the meaning of this verse is clear when one views it in light of the aforementioned example. Basically, one is healed of his delusions by reading the Qur'an. In essence, it is therapy. It literally cures deluded people by confronting them with facts. A prevalent attitude throughout the Qur'an is one which says, "O mankind, you say such and such about this; but what about such and such? How can you say this when you know that?" And so forth. It forces one to consider what is relevant and what matters while simultaneously healing one of the delusions that facts presented to mankind by Allah can easily be explained away with flimsy theories and excuses.
New Catholic Encyclopedia
It is this very sort of thing - confronting people with facts - that had captured the attention of many non-Muslims. In fact, there exists a very interesting reference concerning this subject in the New Catholic Encyclopedia. In an article under the subject of the Qur'an, the Catholic Church states:
[i]"Over the centuries, many theories have been offered as to the origin of the Qur'an... Today no sensible man accepts any of these theories!!"
Now here is the age-old Catholic Church, which has been around for so many centuries, denying these futile attempts to explain away the Qur'an.
Indeed, the Qur'an is a problem for the Catholic Church. It states that it is revelation, so they study it. Certainly, they would love to find proof that it is not, but they cannot. They cannot find a viable explanation. But at least they are honest in their research and do not accept the first unsubstantiated interpretation which comes along. The Church states that in fourteen centuries it has not yet been presented a sensible explanation. At least it admits that the Qur'an is not an easy subject to dismiss. Certainly, other people are much less honest. They quickly say, "Oh, the Qur'an came from here. The Qur'an came from there." And they do not even examine the credibility of what they are stating most of the time.
Of course, such a statement by the Catholic Church leaves the everyday Christian in some difficulty. It just may be that he has his own ideas as to the origin of the Qur'an, but as a single member of the Church, he cannot really act upon his own theory. Such an action would be contrary to the obedience, allegiance and loyalty which the Church demands. By virtue of his membership, he must accept what the Catholic Church declares without question and establish its teachings as part of his everyday routine. So, in essence, if the Catholic Church as a whole is saying, "Do not listen to these unconfirmed reports about the Qur'an," then what can be said about the Islamic point of view? If even non-Muslims are admitting that there is something to the Qur'an - something that has to be acknowledged - then why are people so stubborn and defensive and hostile when Muslims advance the very same theory? This is certainly something for those with a mind to contemplate - something to ponder for those of understanding!
Testimony of an Intellectual
Recently, the leading intellectual in the Catholic Church - a man by the name of Hans - studied the Qur'an and gave his opinion of what he had read. This man has been around for some time, and he is highly respected in the Catholic Church, and after careful scrutiny, he reported his findings, concluding, "God has spoken to man through the man, Muhammad." Again this is a conclusion arrived at by a non-Muslim source - the very leading intellectual of the Catholic Church himself!
I do not think that the Pope agrees with him, but nonetheless, the opinion of such a noted, reputed public figure must carry some weight in defense of the Muslim position. He must be applauded for facing the reality that the Qur'an is not something which can be easily pushed aside and that, in fact God is the source of these words.
As is evident from the aforementioned information, all of the possibilities have been exhausted, so the chance of finding another possibility of dismissing the Qur'an is nonexistent.
Burden of Proof on the Critic
If the book is not a revelation, then it is a deception; and if it is a deception, one must ask, "What is its origin? And where does it deceive us?" Indeed, the true answers to these questions shed light on the Qur'an's authenticity and silence the bitter unsubstantiated claims of the unbelievers.
Certainly, if people are going to insist that the Qur'an is a deception, then they must bring forth evidence to support such a claim. The burden of proof is on them, not us! One is never supposed to advance a theory without sufficient corroborating facts; so I say to them, "Show me one deception! Show me where the Qur'an deceives me! Show me, otherwise don't say that it is a deception!"
LAST EDITED ON 24-12-01 AT 08:43 AM (GMT)[p]LAST EDITED ON 24-12-01 AT 06:56*AM (GMT)
Hi Jalaal,
That is an interesting tidbit, and I do believe there's a reponse to it. Let me rephrase your agruement to make sure we're on the same page: Satan could not have brought the Qur'an because it tells people not to follow him, and Satan would not do this nor could he be this clever. And if he would or could, God would not let him.
I'll answer each part separately:
Is Satan clever enough to do this?
Who do you think Satan is? Hasn't been around as long as the creation of the earth? Don't you think he's learned some things after his thousands of years of deception? Your premise is that Satan isn't as smart as we are, but there's evidence for that. Not only is it possible for him to be so clever, it's probable.
Would Satan want to do this?
You said he wouldn't do this, so let's wonder a moment that he did and see whether it makes sense or not. First, what is Satan's mission? The Qur'an says it's to lead people astray. If the Qur'an were not from God, then (roughly) 1.2 billion people have been led astray. It seems that if this was Satan's work, he was very successful.
In doing this, Satan must tell people not to follow him, "seek refuge in Allah from Shaytan." But what effect is there? Doesn't it mean to resist temptation, you being a Muslim can probably give a better interpretation. But if that's all, is there any practical implication? Just about everyone knows that to follow God means resisting temptation, so whether the Qur'an says it or not, followers would try to resist temptation.
Obviously the Qur'an tells people to follow God, but what does taht mean? It means to follow the Qu'ran, hadith, and sunna. Now if Satan is the originator of the Qur'an, then hadith and sunna aren't from God, and in affect, Satan is not telling people to follow God.
Satan shows us that he does in fact trick people. When talking to Adam he pretends to be sincere when he isn't, just like with the Qur'an theory. "Lo! I am a sincere adviser unto you." And in the Bible, "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" and his servant, "as servants of righteousness."
Would God allow this?
As with just about any question about justifying God's work, I don't think there's a deserving answer. Whatever God wishes to do, there's wisdom in it; sometimes it makes sense to us, sometimes not.
However, we can compare two parts of God's allowance of actions to shed some light. There is the arguement that Islam must be true because God wouldn't allow some many to believe in something false, but this contradicts Islam instead of upholding it. There are 1.2 billion Muslims and 2 billion Christians. Using that arguement, Christianity cannot be false because even more people have been led by it, but that's a silly arguement. Still, it shows, from a Muslim perspective, that he allows people to be led astray, for whatever reasons his divine wisdom give.
Satan makes mistakes
This has to do with internal contradictions, and as I said, I'm not allowed to bring them up. You asked to see where there are deceptions, hopefully I'll email them to you.
Mythomania
I agree with you, this is a silly idea.
New Catholic Encyclopedia and Hans
I don't know anything about either of them, but if they do say the Qur'an is from God, they cannot truly be Christian because the Bible contradicts things in the Qur'an. In any case, we should go by facts, not by what others say.
Evidence?
You are quite right in saying that the burden for evidence is on the critic, and I've given it in my first post in this thread. Muhammad's state during revelation was accompanied by startling affects like shaking and drooling. There is also the fact that Muhammad himself attested that it may have been demonic after his first revelation. Thirdly, the "Satanic verses" show that Muhammad could not distinguish the sound of Gabriel talking with the sound of Satan. Fourth, Muhammad attempted suicide shortly after his first several revelations. And the burden of proof shifts to your side, how do you explain these three facts if Muhammad was not in connection with something other than Muslims say.
Summary
Let's recap: It is possible that Satan would use whatever methods he could for deception to lead the most people astray. It is also possible for God to allow it. The arguement was that there's no logical explanation for Muhammad's life except that he's a prophet, but this shows demonic influence was possible, which asnwers the arguement. Going further we can also see by Muhammad's words and actions that there's visible evidence for this.
It seems I've taken a rather aggressive tone which I apologive for. God bless,
JBJ
Hi Asif!
I have to confess I was a little disappointed with your response, it looked below your normal quality. Maybe you don't have a lot of time. You said:
There is no evidence to prove that Waraqa was teaching Prophet Muhammed (SAAW), or that Prophet Muhammed (SAAW) was borrowing from Waraqa's works.
and
I learnt the Biography of Prophet Muhammed (SAAW) in school. As far as i can remember, Prophet Muhammed (SAAW) did not know Waraqa before the incident where he goes to Waraqa after receiving the first Revelation, and Allah knows best.
I'm not trying to prove that Waraqa taught him anything, I'm saying that it was possible. Jalaal orginally said, "And how could he give answers in detail to the questions of Jews and Christians, when he had never read a bible?" I'm only showing that because it's possible, there's no miracle as was imlied.
Muslims believe Waraqa was a Christian.
I think you're meaning that Waraqa was a true follower if Jesus, it's hard to tell by the shortness of the statement. You said before, "sincere Christians like Waraqa." But you never really responded to the problem. This sincere Christian was reading the Gospel and translating it, so why don't sincere Muslims read and follow it too?
Prophet Muhammed (SAAW) is mentioned in the Bible. This fact was accepted by some Christians during the Prophet's (SAAW) time and even nowadays.
Waraqa makes no mention of such a prophesy, at least not in Bukhari's hadith. But where is Muhammad in the Gospel? The proposed prophecy in John 14 has already been answered in the "Biblical Prophecies for the coming of Mohammed (SAAW)" thread, though you're always welcome to challenge it.
There are some (self proclaimed) Muslims who believe in another prophet after Muhammad, including Anne Marie and Twelvers. But the Qur'an abounds with statements disproving this. The fact that people believe in a future prophet doesn't give it warrant.
You said after my statement that "Waraqa makes the connection with Gabriel, but he isn't mentioned in the Torah or Gospel as talking with either Moses or Jesus. In fact, no angels are recorded as giving God's message at all. Moses is said to have spoken with God face to face, and Jesus being God would know everything he was to teach on his own. Waraqa seems to have no basis for Gabriel's status, but it's interesting to see that Muhammad gives the same status to the angel, as if adopting Waraqa's baseless idea. I'll have to spend more time on it to understand it better. Let me know what you think."
Baseless ideas are those which are followed by most Christians nowadays.
I don't speak for other Christians, but true Christianity isn't baseless. It has evidence through history that Jesus said what he did and did what the Gospel says, and through the Jewish scriptures, by their miraculous prophecy of events, especially the messiah. There are no proven contradictions in the Bible, the trinity is a logical and supported idea, and Muhammad nor any other prophets are predicted in the Bible. What examples are there that Christianity is baseless?
You also didn't answer anything you quoted me on. My ponits were that 1) Waraqa either didn't know his Gospel well or there was some level of fabrication in this hadith and 2) if the hadith wasn't fabricated, Waraqa was wrong about Moses and Gabriel and Muhammad teaches the same idea. So either an angel did go to Moses and Waraqa just happened to guess that one did and got his name the same, or Muhammad used Waraqa as an inaccurate source. So either not all of Muhammad's information came from God or Waraqa had an extremely lucky guess.
Good luck and God bless with all your work, salaam!
JBJ
Om_Mohammed
24-12-2001, 11:02
Assalaamu ala min taba al-huda.
I would like to give you strong warning and reminder, JBJ...that the rules of this forum include opposing insulting and insinuating insults against our prophet(SAAW). Regardless in whatever manner you may present them, including in the form of or in the spirit of debate and questions.
As well, your 'theory' of Mohammed (SAAW) having been possessed can and is refuted by the Quran itself. There has already been some verses quoted refuting this claim, as well as the following verse:
'Thou art not by the grace of thy Lord mad or possessed' (68:2)
JBJ-You have also mentioned the 'satanic verses' and their reference to Mohammed(SAAW) and his state that he was in during the revelation and afterwards. To clear up this assumption, I would like to remind you that these 'satanic verses' are not a part of the Quran, but rather an implication by an enemy of Islam trying to impress on the rest of the world something which is assumed to have previously existed in the Quran, which it did not. Please be certain of your facts about the Quran before bringing them for argument.
As well, your reference to the false assumption of Mohammed (SAAW) trying to take his life after the beginning of the revelations...where do you get this information from? There is no such reference in Islam to this, and although the prophet(SAAW) himself was in a state of confusion at the beginning as to what this was and what was happening to him, still he did not try to take his life. Rather, he pushed himself forward, taking courage and gaining guidance from the revelations which were shown to him.
And, as a last point, your reference to the mention of guidance in the Quran 'take refuge with Allah from Satan'-it does not mean to resist temptation, as you have come to understand it, but rather it means as it is stated...to seek refuge with Allah from Satan...seeking refuge or safety with Allah, a protection, if you will...from the effects and evils of Satan. Otherwise, for those who either arrogantly or perhaps even absent-mindedly omit this important aspect, they are fair game for Satan and his craftyness and his evils. It is a reminder, that in our need of seeking refuge with Allah from Satan, that perhaps Satan is in fact stronger than us on our own, and that it is only with Allah's power to help us and to grant us that refuge of protection, that we can overcome Satan.
I thankyou in advance, JBJ, and any others as well...to please refrain from insulting prophet Mohammed(SAAW) in any way...even in the spirit of this debate.
Om Mohammed.
Debate and discussion is good, it helps people to understand each other better. In learning about Islam, I suggest that you read the Quran more thoroughly, to understand better.
LAST EDITED ON 24-12-01 AT 07:50 PM (GMT)[p]Hi Om Mohammed,
You're completely right, I shouldn't have digressed into the idea of Muhammad's demonic influence. I won't write on the subject publicly any more, I'll just remind everyone one more time that there is an answer for the liar/lunatic/prophet challenge. Anyone who wants to discuss it can email me at HamasheachYeshua@hotmail.com Muhammad's suicide attempts and info the Satanic verses are available to anyone who wants to hear about them.
JBJ
Dr Qaisar
25-12-2001, 00:06
Greetings, JBJ
Even as sis.Om Mohammad has warned you about making insinuations about the condition of the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) while receiving the Revelation from Allah through the archangel Gabriel (peace be upon him), how does that prove for you and other Cristians & non-Muslims that there could be the possibility of demonic influence or possession?? It is nothing but baseless accusations on your & other non Muslims' part over the passage of time since the Revelation of the Qur'an to the Porphet (PBUH). Do you not know that the Qur'an is first and foremost a Book of Guidance and Warning to mankind for all times?? A Guidance to the Straight Path to God (Allah) and a Warning to mankind that if they do not worship and obey God, there abode will be a most terrible place.
With respect to Guidance for mankind and it's spiritual and moral teachings, how can they be influenced by Satan, may I ask you??? Satan only commands evil and sinful acts that will lead mankind to destruction, both here in this world and the Hereafter!! But God (Allah) only invites mankind to His Paradise!!! What do find in the Qur'an that leads mankind to Hell?? Do you find any Command in the Qur'an that may lead mankind to commit evil & sinful deeds?? The Command of God (Allah) in the Qur'an is only to believe in Him and to do righteous deeds!! And what is the reward of good but good?? Satan deceived Adam & Eve and caused their downfall from Paradise, even though they had been warned by Allah not to listen to Satan. Yet, this is same warning Allah has renewed to mankind throughout His Revelations to all the Prophets, from Adam to the last Prophet, Mohammad (PBUH). Allah has condemned Satan and his followers to Hell and Satan has been "cursed" and "rejected" in the Qur'an. Will Satan curse himself and condemn himself to Hell if the verses of the Qur'an were from Satan?? Astaghfirullah ( I seek forgiveness of Allah)!!
The Qur'an has stated that were Allah to Reveal His verses (the Qur'an) on a mountain, the mountain would have been destroyed or collapsed!! So just imagine the effect it may have had on an ordinary mortal at the time of it's Revelation!! One need not be surprised at the terms of descriptions used in describing the state of the Prophet (PBUH) when the Revelations came to him. One should not be biased or prejudiced when he/she does not agree with the Qur'an. If you & others do not believe that the Qur'an is from God (Allah), then why don't take up the challenge contained in the Qur'an to produce a Book like it OR even 10 chapters (suras) OR at the very least, a single chapter (sura)?? Know that since it's revelation 1400 years ago, no has succeeded has in doing so and none will ever be successful till the end of time!! And don't give us the excuse that you are not an Arabic speaking person so you cannot write anything in Arabic because no Arabic speaking person has ever been able to do so either!! Surely, non-Muslims since the time of it's Revelation 1400 years have found some logic and truth in the Qur'an that they have embraced Islam in such large numbers till this date!! Well, numerically the Christians maybe more than Muslims today, but ask yourself truthfully: how many are truely practising Christians today? Unlike the Muslims where the overwhelming majority are practising Muslims and are faithful to their religion. An example to be seen & appreciated is the recently concluded holy month of Ramadhan, Subhan-Allah (Glory be to Allah)!! But the Muslims are not just religious during this month but all throughout the year, day in and day out, praying 5 times a day along with the other obligations (well, at least the vast majority of Muslims)!! Can you sincerely say the same about your Christian brothers & sisters?? Pray, what has caused them to go astray from their own Religion?? Satan???
Dr.Qaisar
I didn't quote sources because I didn't want to go into any more detail. But I'll email them to you. Thanks.
JBJ
LAST EDITED ON 26-12-01 AT 04:08 AM (GMT)[p]Hi Asif,
Actually, I did take some offense at your mimicking me. I never said you had a demonic connection. I never refused to give references. JaLaal asked for references one time, and I told her after that I didn't want to further the arguement. I'm emailing the references to her. If you'd like to post them without calling them insults, tell me and I will. But please don't put words in my mouth. And don't make any similarities between the prophet Jesus and my grandmother.
"Free Speech" didn't refer to insults. It refered to Christians and Jews being called blamed insults when bringing anti-Muslim arguements but the forum is filled with anti-Christian threads and no one's said a single word. You'll have to excuse my frustration and my impression that this isn't free speech.
My belief on Muhammad's connection has no reflection on his personality. Related people in the Bible are never called evil or even immorally inclined. I believe Muhammad was a seeker of God, and have since first seriously reading about him.
What insult did I make to Om Mohammed?
I've read the rules, though I don't see my opinion of Muhammad as insultive, I'll still try better in the future.
Trying to cool down,
JBJ
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
You will note that in the above-mentioned ahadith, there is no true mention in fact of 'suicide', but the reference to suicide is an inference of misinterpretation by the quoter, here 'JBJ'.
The point that Mohammed(SAAW) was reminded by angel Gabriel upon his reaching the top of the mountain is no indication that he had come to the state of trying to commit suicide...but merely a reminder that Mohammed(SAAW), being human as he was...did become dispared and non-understanding (perhaps even a bit saddened) when the revelations ceased for a time...not knowing if or when they would continue. This is only indication that Gabriel was sent to him to remind him that this is only a time-ly lapse of the revelation, and that he is not to dispair...that they will eventually continue, when and as Allah decreas that they continue.
It can perhaps be compared to the events of Jesus...when he took to the mountain top...and was then tried and tested by the devil...and Jesus did overcome the temptations. So did Mohammed(SAAW) overcome the temptations of the devil...not saying that he tried to commit suicide...but that he was confused, depressed, and did not understand the reasons for the cessation at the time of the revelations.
When he began to receive the revelations, and understood them for what they were, and then they ceased for a while...he did not understand at first why they were ceasing...and needed that guidance and reassurance in the form of the angel Gabriel to remind him of such.
That is all that this hadith is referring to...nothing else.
Allah knows best.
Lulua.
LAST EDITED ON 28-12-01 AT 00:22 AM (GMT)[p]Greetings All!
JBJ responded to Jalaal's reprinting of an article by Dr. Gary Miller in the following way:
>
>New Catholic Encyclopedia and Hans
>
>I don't know anything about either
>of them, but if they
>do say the Qur'an is
>from God, they cannot truly
>be Christian because the Bible
>contradicts things in the Qur'an.
> In any case, we
>should go by facts, not
>by what others say.
>
JBJ is a Christian, but not a Catholic. Christianity can be broadly distinguished in three branches: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. JBJ is Protestant (as I learned in a private email), and therefore is unfamiliar with the Catholic Encyclopedia. I am Roman Catholic. So, since JBJ does not know about the Catholic Encyclopedia or "Hans", I will touch on them breifly.
First, the Catholic Encyclopedia is not considered an infallible book. It is written by theologians and priests as a reference book. The articles try to simplify complex historical and theological points to serve as an introduction to a topic. While the Catholic Encyclopedia is a useful reference, nothing written in it should be considered the final and absolute teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. That is not the intent of an encyclopedia. The intent is simply to provide a brief introduction to an important topic written from the perspective of an educated Catholic.
All this being said, the edititors of the Catholic Encyclopedia have endeavored since the 1960's to be ecumenical and balanced in their treatments of non-Catholic positions. They don't always succeed, but the effort is noticeable.
The Church always acknowledged that the Old Testament prophets who did not know Christ by name were saved. The Church also acknowledged that converts preparing for baptism who had not actually received the sacrament before death were saved by a "baptism of desire". Furthermore, there had been a long debate in the Church whether people with very similar beliefs to Catholicism were also saved by a baptism of desire.
The Fourth Lateran Council declared infallibly that there is no salvation apart from the Catholic Church in the middle ages. With the Second Vatican Council, the Church has officially and infallibly declared that while there is no salvation apart from the Roman Catholic Church, this does not mean that there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.
In other words, we believe that God alone saves people. God's primary means of salvation is the Church. Yet, God saves people who are outside of the Church. Christ is God, and the Church is the Body of Christ. Thus, the same power saving me is the one that is saving any Muslim who will be saved, even though you don't yet realize it is Christ who is saving you. Indeed, in the Catholic understanding, my going to Mass has a salvific effect on you. Furthermore, the very dialogue we are having on this web-site is helping each of us to grow in grace. Thus, you are not saved in Islam apart from me in Catholicism! Some people see that the Church is trying to be "politically correct" (sometimes well, and sometimes not so well). We are trying to acknowledge that truth (and even salvation) exists in the other religions.
We believe that the fullness of truth exists in the Roman Catholic Church. However, we are trying to acknowledge that this does not mean that other groups do not share common truths with us -- even truths which may lead a non-Catholic to eternal salvation.
Thus, Orthodox are considered to be so close to us that really wish unite with them, and great progress has been made in this regard. Protestants are now called our separated brethren, and we seek to dialogue and clear up misunderstandings that arose over the last 400 years. We acknolwedge that Protestants and Catholics can pray to Christ together and work on common cause issues. We acknowledge that all Christian churches who proclaim Jesus is Lord, celebrate baptism according to the Trinitarian formula, and celebrate the Lord's Supper are united in the Holy Spirit, despite our visible differences in ecclesiology. We also acknowledge a bond with Judaism, with Abraham as our common father in faith. Jesus came from the Jews, and the Jews have much in common with Christians. With Islam, we acknowledge that there is one God, and we admire the practices of prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. We also seek to acknowledge what is good and true in Buddhism, Taoism, and other world religions.
Because of this shift in focus in the Catholic Church that began in the 1960's, there is a tendency in the Catholic Encyclopedia to avoid language that other religions would find blatantly offensive. The Bible encourages that we explain our hope with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15-16). Thus, rather than putting down other religions, we try to emphasize the positive case for our religion, and acknowledge common ground with others where it exists. This is why the Encyclopedia will avoid speculation about Mohammed's sources. We even acknowledge theologically that Mohammed may have been touched by grace, though we do not believe that the Qur'an is infallibly inspired by God in the same sense as the Bible. Where the Qur'an seems to contradict a valid interpretation of the Bible, we believe the Qur'an is either in error, or it is interpreted incorrectly.
The theologian named Hans is likely to be Hans Kung. He is a German theologian who has been a leader in dialogue with other religions. However, Kung has taken some stands on issues that have placed him under suspicion of the Popes. Pope Paul the IV "silenced" him, meaning that he was not allowed to teach in a Catholic sponsored university. The silence has not been lifted by subsequent Popes. However, no Pope has "excommunicated" him. Thus, there is an acknowledgement that his points have some validity. The issue with Kung seems to be that he overstates his position and exagerates or slants his explanations in such a way that even an orthodox truth can be easily misunderstood. Personally, I respect Kung, and highly recommend two of his books: Does God Exist? and On Being Christian are decent treatments of contemporary theology. However, in later writings, his postion on Islam seems confused, and it is becoming increasingly hard to discern what he really believes about Christ.
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Dr Qaisar
27-12-2001, 19:51
As-salaamu-alaikum, ya muslimeen.
Below I am reproducing an e-mail sent to me by that "Defender of Free Speech and Insults", Mr.JBJ, who is "politeness personified"!!! I would like readers here to judge for themselves the contents of this e-mail, especially the part regarding the "Satanic Verses", the Prophet (PBUH) mistaking Gabriel (PBUH) for a Demon as alluded to by this article (Astaghfirullah) and finally, the "Conclusion" at the end of the mail. This "gentleman", Mr.JBJ, has the shameless audacity to post a private e-mail to a fellow partcipant here at IWC, ostensibly with the "noble" intention of not being derogatory to our Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), Allah's Book, the Qur'an and Islam and it's followers, the Muslims in general to escape being banned from this site or face deletion of his offensive post should he want to post this article in this forum!! He also sent me second mail with similar contents to which I replied. But I asked him not to send any mails to me directly but to post whatever he wants to the IWC Forum here so that everyone can see and judge for themselves the intentions of this person!! As everyone will appreciate, this person, JBJ, has no intention of learning anything meaningful about Islam or the Qur'an. He states towards the end of his mail that Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) had some deal with Satan!! "SATAN LED, HE FOLLOWED!!" (Astaghfirullah). And poses the question: "DON'T MUSLIMS FOLLOW ONE OF THE FALSE PROPHETS JESUS FORETOLD??" I leave it to the better judgement of the moderators and the Admimistrator, Bro.Tayeb, about what should be done to this person, JBJ!! I realise that this was a private e-mail to me but nevertheless, it underscores the vital point that how prejudiced and bigotted this person, JBJ, really is!! He has nothing but extreme pathological hatred for Islam and for the noble Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). This is evident by his allusions & accusations or suggestions that the Prophet of Allah (PBUH) was influenced by Satan or that the Qur'an may have "Satanic verses"!! Astaghfirullah!!! I have informed JBJ that I would post his mail to me to this IWC Forum
so that everyone has a chance to see for themselves what JBJ realy desires.
Wa-salaam.
Dr.Qaisar
************************************************** ************************************************** ****
Hi Dr. Qaisar,
Even though you didn't ask for it, I thought you'd find the following sources interesting since you've joined the discussion.
I know this is pretty long, but trying getting through the whole thing.
Understand that the Christian idea of a demon is a jinn who follows Satan.
I've quoted many hadith only partially because reading the length of all of them would take a very long time. I hope you'll trust I'm not misquoting or taking them of out context, but I still hope you'll check the references.
MUHAMMAD'S STATE AT REVELATION
Like a bell: Bukhari 1.1.2 Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell. (Cf 4.54.438)
Red Face: Bukhari 5.59.618 saw the Prophet red-faced Covered himself: Bukhari 6.60.447 'Fold me up in garments!' They wrapped me up. (Cf 6.60.481, Qur'an 74.1)
Drooling: Falling to the ground and going unconscous: Bukhari 5.38.170 he fell unconscious on the ground with both his eyes towards the sky.
Hard breathing: Bukhari 6.61.508 The Prophet's face was red and he kept on breathing heavily.
Sweating: Bukhari 1.1.2 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the sweat dropping from his forehead (Cf 2.24.544, 3.48.829)
Trembling Lips: Bukhari 1.1.4 Allah's Apostle used to bear the
revelation with great trouble and used to move his lips(quickly) with the Inspiration
Frightened: I was so frightened by him that I fell on the ground
(4.54.461)
Made Camel Noises: Muslim 7.2654 he was emitting a sound of snorting. He (the narrator) said: I thought it was the sound of a camel.
MUHAMMAD THOUGHT GABRIEL A DEMON
He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.
The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.'Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. (Bukhari 1.1.3)
Here we see that Muhammad's first thought was of a demon. The spirit (Gabriel or a demon) spoke in God's name, but Muhammad wasn't thinking of God, he was thinking that this spirit would harm him. Also notice that it wasn't until seeing Waraqa that he gets the idea that the spirit was an angel. If Muhammad hadn't gone to see him, it would have taken Muhammad some time to decide the spirit was Gabriel, if ever.
Also notice the violent way that the spirit acts. He presses Muhammad until he can hardly bear it anymore. Imagine how he must have felt! Why would a benevolent God want his holy messenger to act this way to his apostle?
SUICIDE
But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home andsaid, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' (Bukhari 1.1.3)
And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (9.87.111)
We see that the revelation was so unsettling that he'd ratherdie than have it happen again. And what kind of action is this for a prophet of God?
SATANIC VERSES
The idea is written by several Muslim biographers of Muhammad, Tabari I think is the best known:
Then God revealed: "By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire... " and when he came to the words: Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-Uzza and Manat, the third, the other? Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words: "These are the high flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval.
Here it is written in commentary by Zamakhshari, "Satan substituted something in accordance with the wish which the messenger of God had sheltered, that is, he whispered something to him which would enable the messenger to announce his wish. In an inadvertent and misleading manner, his tongue hurried on ahead of him, so that he said:"These (goddesses are
the) exalted cranes. Their intercession (with God) is to be hoped for.""
Also, the entire hadith of Bukhari 6.60.385 says "Narrated Ibn Abbas:The Prophet performed a prostration when he finished reciting Surat-an-Najm, and all the Muslims and pagans and Jinns and human beings prostrated along with him."
It is also alluded to in 22.52,53 where it says: "Never have We sent a single prophet or apostle before you with whose wishes Satan did not tamper. But God abrogates the interjections of Satan and confirms His own revelations. God is all-knowing and wise. He makes Satan's interjections a temptation for those whose hearts are diseased, whose hearts are hardened." It may or may not refer to the same incident, but in either case, it says that Satan can interject words into God's revelation. Whether this happened to Moses, Abraham, Muhammad, or whoever,it means that Gabriel bringing the verses can be confused with Satan.
I want to be sincere now. After reading all this from some of the most accurate and respected Muslim historians and writers, how is it that Muhammad recieved his words from God? Muhammad couldn't tell the difference between the words of God (through Gabriel) and the words of Satan, nor could others because no one called into question that the Satanic verses were false. (Or at least no historians recorded this fact.) How do we know there aren't more verses in the Qur'an inspired by Satan? How do we know that verses saying Jesus wasn't God aren't by Satan? How do we know that Muhammad didn't confuse Gabriel with Satan many times, or every time?
Another implication are with the verses that say no one could bring a sura like the Qur'an. Muhammad believed for some amount of time (at least enough time to perform a prayer) beforeGabriel corrected him that this verse was satanic.
If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another. (17.88)
There has been one jinn, Satan, who produced the like of this Qur'an. Do you understand? Satan's style is similar to the rest of the Qur'an. Satan sounds like the Qur'an. The Qur'an sounds like Satan. Where is a single verse, any evidence at all that the Qur'an doesn't only sound like Satan, but is done by Satan?
Muhammad had a deal with the devil. Satan led, he followed. If Muhammad began to get off course, Muhammad was corrected. Islam's denial of Christ's identity, is Satan's stronghold upon millions of people. Isn't it just as Jesus said, "and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people."
(Matthew 24.11) Don't Muslims follow one of the false prophets Jesus foretold?
CONCLUSION
These are very serious charges. They call into question the entire prophethood of Muhammad. I earnestly ask you to go over the facts in careful consideration. Check the references, think about them, pray about them, just don't ignore them. May God bless you,
JBJ
************************************************** **************************************************
Dr Qaisar,
I agree. Everyone can judge for themselves. I sent you the article via email because the rules of the forum don't allow anti-Islamic ideas, so I wanted to follow that. The rules don't articulate anything concerning private emails. I'll do as you asked and not email you further.
JBJ
Om_Mohammed
30-12-2001, 00:59
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Good day to all.
Although Br. Asif has asked for me to delete this preceeding message, titled 'jbj's evidence'...I have selected to let it remain temporarily, if it need be referred to for a reference point.
Because he is rather busy at the moment with examinations, he has asked for me and other admins at this site to explain to JBJ his reasoning for posting such a message: demonstrating in such a dialogue(which, by the way...is only an example...and not true)...as exemplifying JBJ's way of going about proving evidence.
Br. Asif has also asked me to relay his apologies for committing any insult upon anyone by this post...which he has assured me that there was no such intent of insult...only an attempt at emphasizing the strange concept of JBJ's sense of logic in trying to prove his point.
One more warning to JBJ...you have seriously committed an offense against muslims and Islam in general by insinuating any 'demon connection' of the prophet(SAAW) or any other such illness...which we can assure you that there was no such connection or illness. If you do not believe that, then that is your own problem, not ours. However, refrain from trying however concealed and trickily to imply in your posts here.
Our rules are clear, and for all to follow. There will be no...repeat NO...toleration of any kind of slander upon the prophet(SAAW) or Islam or muslims. Period.
Also, please do refrain from bothering members of this site by sending such messages as you have sent out in mass circulation to those registered here. That is not the reasoning for the registration...and we request that you do not abuse your privelege of being a registered user.
Om Mohammed.
JBJ:
Actually I'd enough of you, and am sure most of others will agree. You're not interested in learning about Islam, or to dialogue.
You're using IWC to propagate your faith and that goes against what IWC is all about.
Tayeb
Dr Qaisar
31-12-2001, 18:37
Greetings, JBJ
Even though I had asked you not to send private mails to me, I had, nevertheless, tried to respond to your insinuations against the Prophet of Allah (PBUH)and the manner of his state at the time of the Revelations to him. I hope you have taken note of my reply and also that of Bro. "Servant of Allah" whatever he may have written to you. Yet, you did not say anything about our replies & explanations. It is not our intention to convince you about Islam, indeed, it is beyond our power (which applies to anyone)!! But you may respond here provided, of course, you observe the rules. The rules framed by the IWC here are such that it would also apply both for this site and privately when sending a mail to any Muslim. I hope you understand.
Anyway, I have read all those ahaadith relating to the Prophet's (PBUH) state at the time of the Revelation before, mainly in Sahih Bukhari. So it was not that I came across those ahaadith for the first time in your mail. But what was objectionable was your unnecessary twisted insinuation against the Prophet (PBUH) as being proof of a 'demonic influence'. Astaghfirullah. Yet, I would like to draw your attention to some medical conditions and the misplaced and fallacious social reactions to them prevalent in our society at all times, though not related to this discussion. You might have heard of Neurological disorders like Epilepsy characterised by abnormal body movements and mental state eg. seizures etc. Socially, people have have erroneously associated the symptoms of this disorder to a case of "demonic possession"!! Yet, there maybe definite neurological causes of this disorder & maybe treatable also. But how can you "treat" people's erroneous perception of such disorders (among many such similar disorders)?? One simply cannot jump to mistaken and stereotype conclusions that a person suffering from such a disorder is "possessed by spirits or demons or Satan etc."!!! I am not implying at all that the Prophet (PBUH) was in any way suffering from any kind of neurological illness!! But as has been recorded in the hadith, the Prophet (PBUH) did undergo certain physical reactions at the time of receiving the Revelations. This does not mean at all that the Prophet (PBUH) was "possessed" by anything. I hope you realise and understand the parallels I have constructed for you above. The insinuations of the like are nothing but ploys by the enemies of Islam present since the beginning of Allah's Revelation to mankind to discredit or to reject deliberately the Message of Allah since time immemorial. It has been stated in the Qur'an that not only the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) had to face such accusations & insults and charges of "madness or possession by demons" by his enemies or opponents, but in fact most, if not all, the previous prophets had to undergo similar treatment at the hands of their enemies from among mankind and the devils. But Alhamdulillah, (Praise be to Allah), Allah has protected and guarded His Books and His Prophets from such baseless charges & accusations.
Dr.Qaisar
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Greetings and good day to all.
Hmm...sure seems to be that JBJ has been busy sending out private emails to some on these forums...what is it in those emails that cannot be said here? Or is it perhaps that he is fearful of the continuance of the argument that he does not want it in the public eye here?
Either way...I have something to say in refutation of his claims...false as they are...insinuating any demonic possession or inclination of our beloved prophet (SAAW) at the time of revelation or otherwise.
Naturally, his first encounter of the revelation he did not realize what was going on. The sudden appearance of a strong being, ordering him to read or recite, even after his pleadings that he is not learned...and even in that deserted place of the cave where he took himself off to for contemplation and worship...all can contribute to his state of physical reaction of sweating, breathlessness, etc.
In the following states of revelation, he began to understand and comprehend that he was meeting with a being not on our own planes (an angel...sent from Allah, or God)...and was receiving a divine message that he was commanded to reveal to mankind. Something not insignificant at all. In fact, rather awesome...to say the least. This would also explain his physical reaction to the reception of the message...that of sweating, breathlessness, etc. As well...the mere fact that he was meeting someone or a being of a different plane or a different conception and creation than he himself and that around him...also counts for his rendition that he received the messages in a dream state or as hearing a bell. Angels are not like us...they are a completely different being...on a different plane than us...and for those of us...(most generally the whole of mankind...with the exception of an extreme few)...have never and never will come in contact with them. That is to say...that although we know (most of us do believe in their existence, even though we cannot see them) that they exist...still we do not and cannot see them...nor do we interact with them, as having conversations with them. We can only interact with other beings on our own level or plane of life force.
It is a divine miracle that Gabriel would interact with Mohammed(SAAW) as he did...or other ppl from time to time in the history of mankind(such as when Mariam was confronted and told of her upcoming carriage of Jesus).
Imagine yourself going to visit the leader of your country, or a popular public figure...perhaps some sort of performer or your hero of choice...at the onset of that meeting...or perhaps even throughout the endurance of the meeting...you may or most probably would feel rather uptight...trying to make upon the other your best impression...perhaps even to the point of sweating or breathlessness from time to time. This is only a small example of what Mohammed(SAAW) apparently naturally as a human felt.
Even though Mohammed(SAAW) did relay to his companions (and to the rest of mankind as well) a great and enduring message...still he was every bit human...and capable and probable of human feelings and emotions. This is a most probable explanation in part of some of his reactions and physical tendencies at time of revelation. Let alone the severity of the message itself that he was receiving.
May Allah lead us all to that which is best.
Lulua.
Salaam to all,
I said I would say no more, so readers don't need to keep reminding me. One person pointed out that I haven't responded. That wasn't because I was ignoring them, I was asked to discontinue and I have. Why does it seem that while people are advising me to follow the rules, others are implying I break them. If I wanted to defend my ideas, I would, it's not that I can't.
No Lulua, I haven't been busy. I sent out 2 emails and 2 to Jcecil which had nothing to do with Islam. That's all.
Yes, there are things that I can email that can't be said on the forum. Please don't imply that I'm fearing anything. Personally I wouldn't mind continuing the subject but others, and the admin, do mind. The only person to respond asked me not email him and I'm not allowed to continue on the forum, that's why I haven't continued. That's all.
It's very easy to defend an idea when they're not allowed to defend in response. As always, those who would like to hear the my opinions may write via email, unless there's an unwritten rule that those who do are banned, as Dr Quaisar implied.
I apologize for my uneasiness in writing this that probably shows through. Writing under insults and accusations makes me nervous. And it's hard to follow what I feel are unjust rules while I feel others don't. But of course that's only my opinion. I do wish the best for all and apologize for everything again.
JBJ
LAST EDITED ON 12-01-02 AT 10:22 PM (GMT)[p]Dear JBJ:
Our rules aren't unjust. They are fair as this is a discussion board run by Muslims, and we won't allow anyone to disobey the rules we have set. One's freedom of expression doesn't mean other person's rights to be ignored. Rules are rules!
I have been following your posts, and my conclusion is that you are not set to discuss with Muslims, to learn about our faith or compare it to your faith. Your intentions seem to be others, correct me if I am wrong if you can swear by what you believe in.
It's more than natural that Muslims will be offended by any implicit arguments that disobey our rules that are clear and are disrescpetful of the Holy Qur'an, the Prophet and all that's dear to us.
If you want the be allowed to post here you must respect Muslims and our rules. They are clearly under help link in case you don't know.
Tayeb
Hi Servant of Allah!
Thanks for responding. However, as I've been told repeatedly, I can't make any insults to your Prophet through IWC. It seems that by posting what I email, I'm indirectly doing this. Therefore as long as you continue posting my words I'm very uncomfortable responding with you. Only if the administrators and the rest of the members of the forum put in an exception to the rule, or if you're willing to write only through email will I continue. Until then we're at a stalemate.
However, I'll comment on a few points that don't insinuate the Prophet...
You're very observant to catch an apparent contradiction in my words. When I said I don't use non-Muslim websites to understand Islam, I meant to understand Muslim fundamentals and Muslim views. If you look at my context (thanks for quoting in context), I made this statement in connection to the trinity. The trinity is a fundamental part of Christianity (that is, a provable fact through the Bible) but many articles posted on the forum taken from non-Christian writers have misrepresented the concept.
For these ideas, (like tawhid, for a Muslim example) I don't use non-Muslim sites. For opinions and views on Islam I use both Muslim and non-Muslim sites as both have credit. In the same way I use both kinds to learn about Christianity, and if I didn't, there'd be things I never would have learned. Sorry that my first statement was apparently misleading. I hope this clears things.
If you like I can email the web pages to you.
I've seen Bukhari's hadith referenced and sorted in different ways and I too often have trouble checking the references. 2.9.111 means volume 2 book 9 number 111. (Or volume 2 number 111 for short.) Some use volume and number, some use book and number, and some use all 3. I use all three because it seems the simplest. (But I guess not!)
Since I don't have the time, money, or interest to read through all of Tabari's writings, I took a shortcut using the web site.
No, Zamakshari, isn't too well known. I first read of him through a secular source on medieval literature.
Thanks for your time, salaam!
JBJ
Hi again Servant of Allah!
The problem with the situation is that the rules don't allow insults to the Prophet but your quoting me is indirectly doing this. Or at least alluding to insults.
You're right! I did contradict myself. If you look at my exact words, one statement must be wrong, and thereby I was wrong. My writing will be forever flawed because I didn't explain myself. And when I did, I didn't do it well enough. I made a mistake and am put to shame. Woe is me that my accuracy is so ruined!
For the hadith, I'm sorry, I went too fast again. The reference to the hadith is 9.87.111. That is, volume 9, book 87, number 111. Didn't I say the reference numbers confused me? See here:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/087.sbt.html
Salaam!
JBJ
There is so much going on w/ this thread. I think, of course i'm usually in a minority, that such issues do need to be addressed by Muslims, because they are common accusations.
But it is late i should get some rest, inshallah i'll come back and deal w/ some of the issues.
However i wonder JB do you read Arabic?
And how much do you know about Zamakshari?
I have linked to this site before in the Qur'an folder on the issue of the Satanic verses i'm sure this will be of interest to some
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/sverses.html
i do wonder, other than jochens anti islam website JB how much have you studied on this issue?
Oh and just a small note, since i remembered, twelvers Shia don't believe in another prophet after muhammad pbuh. The mahdi is not a prophet, but that is a whole other discussion.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
As Salaam Alaikum
That is a very good point about At Tabari which many who are not learned on such subjects would know. At Tabari did list many of the traditions, not only in his history but as well as his tafsir. that doesn't 1. mean they were factual, in many instances you find clear contradictions 2. that he held them as accurate and based his view on them.
Zamakshari had Mutazilah tendencies, which was what i wanted to get. Which was why I asked what he knew of him. I'm not even sure if Zamakshari as a Mutazilite would actually accept such a story. They do not go for much of the related traditions that would put such a question as to the reliability of Muhammad pbuh as a authority of Allah.
Also the writers of JBJ's source are very selective. for intance you don't see them quoting Razi who totally rejects this and makes mention that any learned scholar rejects these stories as well. But they will use Razi as a source other times. Very selective and just reaks of dishonesty
I don't have Zamaksharis work, although I am interested in readin them. I do have access to Tabaris work and will inshallah verify the information.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Hi Nzingha and Servant of Allah,
Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I'm glad that each of you are so willing to take this on, as I think every Muslim should just as every Christian should take on Christian criticism.
I know about five words in Arabic. I don't much at all about Zamakshari, he doesn't come up often so I don't care much. What difference does it make whether Zamakshari was Sunni or not? And please, simply call me JBJ, I personally find the "Mr JBJ" bit a little derogatory. JB is fine, I have a very good friend who calls me that.
I'm not out to defend the answering-islam site, for it makes logical errors just as much as any other. To answer the comment about Razi, it may be because it believes Razi to be mistaken on this point, but not on others which he's quoted on.
I was aware that some early Muslim writers consider their work only compilizations of what's been gathered and offer their finders to readers and scholars to decide what's valid or not. I didn't know specifically that Tabari was one of them, but it doesn't surprise me at all. However, this seems far from a reason to discredit this evidence. I don't have the best mind for science, dates, names, etc. My work with religious criticism is through lack of bias and logic. (Of course, each person's bias is for him/herself to decide.) My logic is a follows:
Say the story is a fraud. It could only come from an enemy of Muhammad or Islam, for no friend would create something so derogatory. This enemy would pass it on to other enemies. However, if a Muslim or friend of Islam heard it, he wouldn't believe the story, just as Muslims now don't believe it. So the story would spread among non-Muslims, but could not penetrate the Muslim circle. Now Tabari is a Muslim, so my question is, why did he accept it? Or, why did his source accept it? Or his source's source, and so on. If there's a plausable explanation for how it went from a non-Muslim to a Muslim then I think I should drop Tabari and evidence.
Say the story is not a fraud. Muslims who witnessed it would tell it to each other because it was truth, and Islam is not against spreading the truth. This would go on and on until reaching Tabari's hands.
There's a great difference between this story and Will Smith's. Any one can make up a conversion story, and quote it to a bunch of people who don't care (I don't imply you, Servant of Allah, but the author had it been a fraud). However, it's very difficult, impossible I believe, for someone to lie about something that opposes their own bias.
I read the article you recommended, but I see little stock in it. They haven't answered why this story was reflected, even if not accepted, by Muslims, which is all that really matters. On their proposed disproof of the event using dates, they don't explain where all their dates came from. Even if the dates are correct, they offer no disproof. The timeline may be this: Satan interjected vanity (as Yusuf Ali calls it), the next day Gabriel informed him of what happened and gave Allah's verses, gave the reason Allah allowed it six years later (17.73-75), and Allah gave the history of it (22.52) three years after that. If this timeline is true, which seems perfectly logical with all the evidence, then there's no problem. The writer jumps to the conclusion (simple logical error!) that 22.52 abrogated Satan's verses when it doesn't have to be that way.
But the hadith and Qur'an give more and separate evidence not addressed by your site.
Say the whole story (not the hadith) is a fraud. It says that pagans prostrated with Muhammad, but doesn't say why. Why is it incomplete?
Say it's true. Somewhere in the transmission a Muslim didn't want to tell the beginning of the story because of its derogatory meaning, but didn't want to lie either.
But the strongest evidence, I think, is still the Qur'an itself. "Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in." 22.52, YA If the story's a fraud, there is still another times when something similar happened.
Also, I'm a very big fan of trial and error. This is a trial, and perhaps I'm in error. I've never discussed this subject with Muslims before so there's a great possibility that I'm mistaken. I accept that upfront and won't be ashamed if by the end I find I'm wrong. To me it's all part of a learning process, not just for me but for everyone. I hope others view it the same way.
Salaam!
JBJ
Hi Servant of Allah,
I guess you didn't understand the humor in my last post. :'( Oh well.
Anyone who believes what you're trying to suggest about Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not a Muslim, that's how central this is in Islam. So, it would be included in fundamentals. And as you said you meant you did not use non Muslim sites to study fundamentals in Islam, but you actually did use a non Muslim site to do this, it would once again contradict.
Now, if I read a web site that says that Jesus is the Way and no one goes to the Father except through him, then I'm reading a statement implying that Islam is false, which means that all its fundamentals aren't true. I could easily hear that verse in a church, or a book as well, even the middle of the Gospel in the Bible. Therefore a site, church, book, or Bible is teaching partially about the fundamentals of Islam. Likewise, when you repeat the shahada every day, you say that Muhammad is Allah's prophet, yet that implies that the present-day Bible is false and some other Christian fundamentals are false. The same if you read off a Muslim web site, book, mosque, Qur'an, etc. Therefore, you learn about Christian fundamentals through non-Muslims. Let's look back at what I said:
I don't use non-Muslims to understand Islam.
Was I meaning that I never go to church, read non-Muslim sites or books, or read the Bible? Was I meaning that Muslims should not attend mosques, read Muslim sites, books or even the Qur'an? Of course not! I'd have to be a complete idiot to mean either! Clearly, I wasn't being technical. So what did I mean?
When I said I don't use Muslim sites, I meant I don't use them to understand what Muslims believe, their perception. I used the word "fundamental" because deep down, most fundamentals of a religion are merely perception and belief. You believe that Allah has no persons within his godhood, I believe that he does, and we believe together that there are no gods beside Allah. All three beliefs are fundamentals of our religions, and all three are perceptions. You believe Jesus was merely human, which is a perception; I believe Jesus was more, which is also a perception. A Muslim or Christian may say that these perceptions are a fundamental of his religion. In the same way a Muslim believes Jibrail was an angel from Allah, a non-Muslim believes he wasn't; both beliefs are perceptions.
(Note: I don't think that Allah having no persons within himself is a real fundamental of Islam, as I've never read the Qur'an and hadith saying this. I say it because many Muslims believe it is, believing that "there is no god but Allah" means one god and one person, nor have I met a Muslim who does believe in plurality within unity. But that's a whole other topic.)
Ok, let me try to be as absolutely and purely clear as I possibly can so that we can get this over with. I said I don't use non-Muslims to understand Islam. Islam is a set of beliefs, a set of perceptions. By what I said, I meant I don't use non-Muslims to understand the beliefs of Islam. And I don't. Now are we clear?
But thinking I was lying has a problem in it. There's no motivation. Every lie has a motivation, yet I had none. (The exception is for people who don't care what others think of their integrity, and after responding to this in such length, I obviously do care.) What would I have to gain? Did I actually think that people might take my advice not to use non-Christian sites to understand the Bible? I never expected it. I can hardly ever read a book or site about Islam without it mentioning somewhere about Paul's corruption, the idea of Jesus as a god, or something. By what Muslims have said on the forum, there seems to be very little interest in what the Bible or Christianity really say. I'm not condeming that lack of interest, for that's each person's choice. But if no one, or next to no one, is really interested, then no one would bother to look up Christian references to really understand the Bible. And if I didn't think anyone would really bother, why would I lie? There's no motivation.
What I did mean by bringing it up, was to say that Muslims shouldn't understand the Bible through non-Christians. And if they don't use Christian voices, then they shouldn't try to understand the Bible at all.
What might bother me more than anything, though, is that you sound so willing to believe I would lie. True it may have looked that way, but how many times do people misinterpret what others say? Even on this forum people have proposed the Bible contradicts itself, only to see later that it doesn't. You said another time that I "deserve the benefit of the doubt," so why not here?
You've made false statements, yet I didn't call you a liar. For example, Hassanalmuslim said the Qur'an contains miraculous scientific statements and Jcecil and I corrected him. But you said "it was another Muslim who pointed out his mistake." There was motivation, making Muslims in general look better, and there was little reason that I can see of making such an error. Yet I didn't say a word because I assumed it was a simple mistake, and I still assume that. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, I hope in the future you'll give me the same.
To be sentimental for a moment, it hurt me for a long time having someone accuse me of being a liar. It was much easier trying to gloss over it with humor instead of facing it. The long delay in my response was from trying to think and pray about it.
Salaam,
JBJ
LAST EDITED ON 29-01-02 AT 05:49 AM (GMT)[p]Hi Servant of Allah,
Since I guess the tension is building up, I'll quit this idea with you, at least for now.
I have bothered to ask Muslims about this, which is what I was doing. I have to start somewhere don't I? And my Muslim friends don't know or care about discussing the subject.
I'll admit I haven't studied the topic much, but I'm beginning to. Discussing ideas with the opposite side has been the best way to learn in my experience. A lonely head between books and a computer screen can absolutely shrivel the brain!
If you think Will Smith would take the time to clarify to people that he isn't Muslim, you've never seen the hogwosh America sells in the supermarkets. Turtles attacking US women by jumping up and biting them, the lost gospel where Jesus prophesies TV, Bill Clinton's new girlfriend, and who could forget the popular Batboy who keeps returning to the covers. Let's admit, so many people are idiots, and fabrication are a dime a dozen, I've seen them. Or $4.99, whatever.
About Answering-Islam, as I said, I don't intend on defending it so I have nothing to bother saying.
On a totally different subject, how have you been feeling the past week? I meant to ask you much earlier but it kept slipping my mind. Imagine! Something like that slipped my mind! Oh well.
Then on to another subject, for having a lot of anger, you cover it very well. I wouldn't have even guessed it if you hadn't spelled it out.
Have a nice day!
JBJ
Assalaamu alaikum.
Br. Servant of Allah has contacted me with some pertinent information on this thread, and asked me to re-print it for him here, for he is unable at the moment to continue on any discussions at this time. He has reassured me that he will soon be returning, inshaAllah, for active interaction to the forums at the soonest convenient moment. We all have times in our lives in which our day to day activities must take preference over our internet activities. I pray that he shall be able to rejoin us as soon as possible, inshaAllah.
He mentioned to me that he had referred this topic to some muslim scholars and knowledgeable persons, for a more reliable and trustworthy response to such a claim against our beloved prophet(SAAW). And, the following is the response that he was given. I am reproducing it here exactly as he has presented it to me. There was no associated link provided as to where (on the internet, if at all from the internet) that it has come from. Any questions as to the validity of this will have to be directed to him when he returns, inshaAllah.
Before reprinting this statement, I would like to add a personal note of my own. We are all humans here...muslims and non-muslims alike. And sometimes in the 'heat of the debate' we get carried away with our own enthusiasm for our own religion, sometimes not realizing the harm that we may be doing in covertly or inadvertently insulting the other and their religion.
On the behalf of other muslims at this site, I would like to extend a genuine apology to all Christians and other non-muslims who frequent this site, and in particular this forum, for any insults to you personally or upon your religion...for an such insults are not in true muslim spirit of presenting religion. However, along with this general apology, let me also remind all here that many times one will receive what one dishes out to others...and perhaps even if you personally (the non-muslims) did not insult Islam, then others before you have, and we have had to take a stance of defense against the many direct and indirect insults flagged against us and our religion from time to time, and in particular since the tragedies of 9-11.
Islam is true and stands to explain and defend itself, without any human interference. My genuine and complete and simple advice to all the non-muslims frequenting here at this site...is to seek information about Islam not only from muslims themselves, as you have done with this site, but as well to seek the truth that can be found nowhere other than in the Quran. Read the Quran. If you do not have access, there are many sites which have excellent links to English (and many other languages) translations of the meanings of the Quran. This is for you personally, and no benefit for myself or others here.
Thankyou, and may God lead all to that which is best.
Lulua.
================================================== ==================== Assalamu Alaykum ! I was having a debate with a Christian on various matters. One point the Christian raised was that Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) tried to commit suicide, or intended to do so. I did not believe him at first, but then he told me to read volume 9, book 87, hadith number 111 of Al Bukhari. Part of this hadith states: "But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down,...." The Christian further went on to say, and i shall quote him or his sources (Answering-islam.org is the site he got this from), verbatim. They said: "And what kind of action is this for a prophet of God?" Astagfarullah. Dear Ulema, plz reply to these enemies of Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Jazaakum Allah Khair in advance. Wassalamu Alaykum.
x Wa`alykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Thanks for this serious question, which reflects your concern about Islam. We really commend your efforts in pursuit of truth. This is what is required of all people, to seek truth and not to give in to anything that may cloud their minds with fake ideas about Islam.
In response to your question, Sheikh `Abdul-Majeed Subh, a prominent Azharite scholar, states:
"Brother, to refute this distortion you are to consider the following three facts:
1. This incident took place before the Prophet's reception of the messengership. There is a great difference between the prophethood and the messengership. When the revelation firstly came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, he was not sure that whether it's a Divine revelation or something else. Then, at the time of that incident the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, was not commanded to deliver a mission to his people and, accordingly, he was a Prophet, not a Messenger yet.
2. He just intended to do so, and one cannot be admitted as guilty because of his intention, as long as he does not translate his intention into practice.
3. This state reflected his anxiety to know the identity of what came to him, whether it's a Divine revelation or something else.
Those who say that this incident was a suicide trial, are distorting the facts. They quoted a part of the narration and concluded fake ideas from it."
Allah Almighty knows best.
Fatwa Editor:
W. Shihab
Greetings All!
This thread was becoming so heated that I was avoiding it. Besides, I have admitted several places that I do not know the life of Mohammed or the hadith well enough to keep up with some of the arguments on the thread -- but I am learning.
I appreciate and accept Lulua's apology to Christians above, and, on behalf of Christians, I apologize for the words of my brother JBJ, which seem to have gone overboard on speculation.
I do have some questions regarding what is written above. Maybe I should start a new thread, but I wanted my question contextualized by the discourse above.
My questions are simply these:
First, if Mohammed went through a period where he doubted his role as a prophet, how can the rest of humanity be certain he is a prophet? I do not think Mohammed was possesed, as JBJ stated. However, the behavior described above does seem suspicious for a prophet.
Second, how does anyone know that they are a prophet?
I don't mean these questions faciciously, nor as an argument against Islam. I am really just curious about your own opinions.
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
>
>First, if Mohammed went through a period where he doubted
>his role as a prophet, how can the rest of humanity be
>certain he is a prophet? I do not think Mohammed was
>possesed, as JBJ stated. However, the behavior described
>above does seem suspicious for a prophet.
>
Actually if one reads a bit of background on the events of the beginning of his prophethood one could understand how a man, a normal everday man, found doubt in his being chosen by God. This was all very new to him, he didn't ask for it, didn't desire it, it came to him under no choice of his own. He didn't seek fame, fortune, or the burden of prophethood, he was simply a man who sought times of contimplation.. than all of a sudden after doing things he had done for so long.. here this unexplainable thing happens to him.. He like any man would be is scared, doubtful, not sure what is going on and what to do next. This is all very REAL responses, I would doubt anyone who didn't have such a response.
recall Moses pbuh when he came to the burning bush.. he was confused, scared, doubtful.. all normal reactions.
>Second, how does anyone know that they are a prophet?
>
>
Most it comes with miracles, or proofs that no everyday man w/ no authority of God can possibly do. The quran, nigh journey, splitting of the moon, and several other aspects of Muhammads pbuh live stand as proofs.
Thanks Nzingha.
I accept that doubt, fear, etc... would be a normal reaction to a direct encounter with Allah. Like you say, Moses was doubtful and afraid. Isiah thought was terrified by the holiness of God.
I guess that what is different in my mind is that Moses, Isiah, and the other prophets of the Bible did not feel despair in their doubt -- to the point of wanting to jump off a mountain. Also, the stuff JBJ wrote about foaming at the mouth, making camel noises, etc...seems a little strange. But I don't know if JBJ has his facts straight, since I simply do not know Mohammed's biography that well. What do you think?
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Salam to all!!
jcecil3; and others, the thread has finished with the response recieved from brother 'servant of allah' and the mere fact that the replies contained on this thread has gone way off the limits and it does take a lot of time to load on slow computers (my one)...
So i will lock this thread and those who wish to view it, they may and if you want to further your questions about the issue of the prophet, then please create another post and hope the members will help you with the questions.
This thread is locked for the number of replies and the topic has been reached to the end, the clarification of the thread.
Take care and keep on discussing...
Sadiq
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