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MuSLiMa
12-03-2002, 01:10
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-03-02 AT 11:26 AM (GMT)]Salam Everybody…
I came into this website by mistake and iam thankful that god has accidently brang me in here.. so I can see and read how misunderstood islam really is.. and how truly sad some of the writters here are… I wanted to reply to so many articles written but I couldn't sum up what I wanted to say in a few words.. so I thought I should start a new page.. and see what replies I will get..
First of all iam a 19 year old moslim girl.. living in Australia.. I have been living here for the last 10 years of my life.. and 2 years ago I chose to put the hijab on ( the veil).. iam thankful to god that I was born a moslim.. and I didn't have to spend my whole life searching for the truth that many still havent found… Being a moslim women, isnt as many think it is.. this oppressed women who is beaten up by her husband who she was arranged to marry and who he forced to cover.. Being a moslim is what made me proud of being a women.. being a moslim is what has given me respect for myself.. b/c I know no other religion in the world gives women the respect that islam gives her.. she is truly honoured.. Islam is not only a religion.. it is a complete way of life….To those moslem women who are reading this write now… Know that you are man's sister and half of humanity. You are a mother, wife, daughter, sister, aunt, grand daughter or grand mother. The Prophet said, what translated means, Women are, indeed, men's partners. [Abu Dawood]. You are a member of the great nation of Islam, the best nation ever produced for mankind. No other nation on earth has more great men, leaders and conquerors than this nation. It is the nation of guidance and the straight religion, and it leads humanity to righteousness and truth. Allah, Who granted Islam to this nation, made a high place for Muslim women, and decreed that they share in the responsibilities of enjoining truth, forbidding evil and raising the flag of Islam. He said, what translated means, The believers, men and women, are loyalists of one another, they enjoin righteousness and forbid evil, they offer their prayers perfectly and give the Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will leave His Mercy on them. Surely Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. [9:71]
Dear Sister, The goals that your enemies and the enemies of your religion are seeking to achieve are well known. They want you to be available for them to fulfill their evil desires whenever they wish. They want you to be a mistress that has no honor. They want you to be found everywhere, on roads and in places of sin, without honor, religion or manners. They seek for you only what they want you to do. The Western world has gone through this all. Women of the West are the part of society that is facing injustice and dishonor. They strive to please men who keep changing partners and seek pleasures but with no responsibility and no consideration of the evil consequences of their sinful actions. O Muslim sister, read and know about those women who discarded shyness and honor and followed their desires, what was the result of their deeds? Was their end honorable and desirable, or was it a shameful and hated end?
I want to tell those who have misunderstood islam that YOU CAN NEVER JUDGE A RELIGION BY ITS PEOPLE...! that is a fact!. You want to know about islam, read and educate urself, ask scholars and imams of the mosques, don't judge it from a few bad examples out there and a few programs that aim to bring hatred towards the moslems, Not everyone who calls themselves a moslem is one.. an not every moslem is honest in his or her actions towards this perfect religion... first of all, the problem with Christianity today is that it is no longer a "religion" as such.. Christianity has become more of a few old traditions and customs that people call a religion.. answer me? what is christmas?? and where is the word "chrismas" mentioned in the bible? what is santa clause? what is easter? what is easter eggs? what is a Christmas tree? there is nothing in the bible that talks about these things..! there is not one verse in the bible that jesus calls himself the son of god ... the old testament is full of things that the muslims follow, yet Christians CHOOSE not to follow U R NOT SUPPOSED TO DRINK, YOU R NOT SUPPOSED TO EAT PORK, U R NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE SEX BEFORE YOU GET MARRIED (dont know what went wrong there).. Where did Christians get this concept of "You are not allowed to marry your own cousins" b/c u r scared u might get retarded kids?? Yet you are allowed to live with a so called boyfriend for years without getting married to him????? And u are allowed to screw around with anyone u like?? From where did Christians develop this unjust and unfair system of DIVORCE, where two cant even get divorced when they are not happy together, but should separate for 7 years to see if they will get back together??? What answers and solutions does Christianity provide for prostitution?? For homosexuality?? For the increasing number of women who cannot find husbands?? For women who fall pregnant by so called MISTAKE when they are 15 ( or should I say kids - not women)… but something thats even more and more interesting is the following!! "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).
NOW WHAT DO WE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THOSE OPRESSED MUSLIM COVERED GIRLS!!! hmmmm...lets compare this to this : "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (24:30,31). The Qur'an is quite clear that the veil is essential for modesty, but why is modesty important? The Qur'an is still clear: "O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their bodies (when abroad) so that they should be known and not molested" (Qur'an 33:59). Thus, the only purpose of the veil in Islam is protection. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil of the Christian tradition, is not a sign of man's authority over woman nor is it a sign of woman's subjection to man. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil in the Jewish tradition, is not a sign of luxury and distinction of some noble married women. The Islamic veil is only a sign of modesty with the purpose of protecting women, all women. The Islamic philosophy is that it is always better to be safe than sorry. In fact, the Qur'an is so concerned with protecting women's bodies and women's reputation that a man who dares to falsely accuse a woman of unchastity will be severely punished: "And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations)- Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever" ... BUT, i guess many just don't wanna accept the truth.. they want to stay blind.. just b/c they feel that Islam has too many restrictions, especially on women.. What a joke!! Read the bible and the torah and you will know that it was not Islam that labeled women as the product of the devil or seed of devil, it is not Islam that made the man as the dominant lord of woman who has no choice but to surrender to his dominance. It is not Islam that betrays woman as shameful "The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3)... It is not Islam that did not allow women to be educated "A man who educates his son will be the envy of his enemy" (Ecclesiasticus 30:3) yet when it comes to women the following is said about them "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a church." (1Corinthians 14:34-35) Nor is it Islam that argued whether women had a soul in her or not! The Quran makes it very clear that both Adam and eve were tempted by the devil, never did the quran blame eve for it! They were equally sinned and equally forgiven! "And O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in paradise, and eat thereof as you both wish, but approach not this tree otherwise you will both be of the zalimun (unjust and wrong doers), Then satan whispered suggestions to them both in order to uncover that which was hidden from them of their private parts (before); he said: "Your lord did not forbid you this tree save that you should become angels or become of the immortals, and the Satan wore by allah to them both (saying); verily iam one of the sincere well-wishers for you both, So he misled them with deception. Then when they tasted the tree, that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifset to them and they began to cover themselves with the leaves of paradise ( in order to cover their shame). And their lord called out to them (saying); "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you; verily satan is an open enemy unto you??" They said "our lord! We have wronged ourselves. If you forgive us not, and bestow not upon us your mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers"(7:19-23) And eventually god forgives both of them equally. Nowhere in the quran can one find even the slightest hint that Eve tempted Adam to eat from the tree. Eve in the quran is no temptress, she is no deceiver or seducer. Eve was never blamed for the pains of childbearing!!
How could being a pure moslim covered women be worser than those prostitutes and singers and actors that are naked on tv, on the news, on the beach??? how could a moslim women who has so much respect for herself be considered oppressed??..
Now to talk about Polygamy, why don't you all read what your own books say about it then come and argue about the just and fair system of islam! I wonder what the bible has to say about polygamy. How could these moslims let there husbands get married to another lady and treat her as well as he treats her and take her permission to marry her first.. but its ok to be pregnant from the age of 15 to my next door neighbor who still plays nintendo?? By the way, if a women in islam, wishes that her husband doesn't get married to another wife when she is married to him, then she can write that in her marriage contract! hmm.. how could loosing ur virginty to any looser be OK and is considered COOL and not oppressed .. and soooooo fun, but staying a virgin till u get married is considered OPPRESSED??. Islam treats women like pearls. we are the ones protected from aids, from the temptations of this nasty world, from the FASHION that America makes every year, this year the split is at the back, in the summer the split is at the front.. the summer after its boob tubes.. the summer after that is getting out NAKED.. and it keeps going!.. men go to the beach to check out every girl there.. why??? oh, maybe cuz shes intelligent and very educated.. and maybe cuz shes naked and she has a hot body that could satisfy any man just by looking at her!! How cheap!... media will keep playing with the minds of people, it will keep making u see that ISLAM oppresses women and there job is to be sex slaves and cook and clean for there husbands... while it is liberation to show 100 girls naked on a song so it can be popular.. and its ok to a put a **** girl on a beer advertisement so people can buy beer.. and the list is endless.. and really what does the bible have to say about polygamy, lets see. This is seen in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. "The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbours wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10) "If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman, so you shall put away the evil person from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:22) "So then if, while her husband is living she marries another man, she shall be called an adulteress, but if her husband has died, she is free from that law, so that she is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man." (Romans 7:3) These verses stop women from having more than one husband living at any one time. They do not stop men from having more than one wife because firstly, they quite simply don't say it, and secondly, it is clearly not a general principle which applies regardless of sex. That can be seen in the way the Old Testament repeats and rewrites laws that apply to men where they apply to women, and in the immediate context of the passage in Romans. The reason the Bible gives is that a woman is under the law of her husband until he dies. While the Bible does talk of marriage partners having authority over each other's bodies, it never talks of a man being under the law of his wife. In fact, it numerous places the Bible indicates that that would be intolerable, such as (1 Timothy 2:12) "I do not allow a woman to teach or to usurp authority over the man". In fact, Romans 7 makes this clear. The passage is comparing the woman to the individual believer, being dead to the law of Moses so that they can be married to Christ and be under his law. It would be inappropriate to say that Christ was under the law of the believer, and in the same way it is inappropriate to say that a husband is under the law of his wife. And because of that it is clear that the restriction in Romans 7 of a woman to one husband cannot be transformed into a restriction of a man to only one wife. This highlights another principle which rules out polyandry through God's system of leadership. 1 Corinthians 11 shows that this is:- God is the head of Christ. Christ is the head of man. Man is the head of woman. This would be defined by our society as sexist, but the Bible clearly treats men and women differently. The order does not signify inequality. When we return to man and woman we can see that they can be equal, perhaps in the same way that the Father and Christ are equal, but equality does not mean they are exactly the same or have the same rights and responsibilities. Hence the man is the head of woman - he takes the lead. The Scriptures show that the man must love his wives and obviously this will affect his decisions. In case you think Iam now considering a different subject, here is the punchline - "no man can serve two masters". Christian teaching is that you cannot follow different leaders - you will hate one and love another. So it is in marriage. A woman cannot have two husbands because she cannot follow two leaders. A man can have two wives because it is perfectly possible to lead more than one person. This can be seen in the phrase in 1 Corinthians 7 v 2 which is sometimes quoted out of context in an attempt to suggest the Bible limits polygamy- "Let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." The words for "his own" and "her own" in this verse are different, and it is not simply a gender difference. This is what we would expect if the way in which they belong to the other differs according to gender. If you check the word for "her own" and look up Romans 14, you will see it is the same word used there of a servant and "his own master". This shows that, if he had believed in monogamy, Paul could have used the same word for both sexes in 1 Corinthians 7. But he didn't. It also means that a woman has her own husband in the same way that a servant has his own master. Just as a master can have more than one servant, so a husband can have more than one wife, and in the same way as a servant can only have one master, so a wife can only have one husband. Any discussion of Christian doctrine beyond what the Bible teaches is speculation. You can read on and consider this speculation if you wish, but it is still speculation. Christian acceptance of polygyny and rejection of polyandry is based on the belief in the infallibility of the Bible - and Christians should base their beliefs on the Bible and not on speculation and emotions!. So, here goes... The first thing to note is that polyandry is very rare - to the extent of being a freak of nature - the vast majority of societies which allow polygamy allow it for men and not for women. The two systems do not run together - it has the potential to get horrendously confusing if it does. It is likely to be more than just chance which makes this the case. To preserve the bond between parents and children, women cannot have more than one partner of the opposite sex. Men can. If a man wants to leave, in a polyandrous situation he can always deny responsibility for the children in the relationship. This leaves the family at risk. Practically speaking we know that men tend towards providing for the family - polyandry greatly increases the risk that the family will break apart and everyone will be poorer. There are more women of marriageable age in the world than there are men. This means that many women who want to marry cannot, because of the sheer weight of numbers. Polyandry makes this problem worse. Polygamy can remove the problem all together. According to leading economists, the problem should be thought if in terms of demand and supply. When men are allowed more than one wife, there is suddenly an increase in demand for women (as married men can be legitimate prospects as well as single men). This means that their "price" (what a man is willing to do for them to get and keep them) goes up. Similarly there is a decrease in demand for men (as women who may have married them now have a far wider choice). This means that their "price" (what a woman is willing to do for them to get and keep them) goes down. So - according to leading economists, if a man is allowed more than one wife the situation for all women is improved - they have more done for them, and don't have to do as much, but if women were allowed more than one husband their situation would be much worse - they would have to do a great deal to get a man, and he would have to do even less than he does now. Put simply, economics teaches that when men have more wives it is better for women, and that when women have more husbands it is worse for women. This combines with the imbalance in numbers of men and women to mean that polyandry and compulory monogamy are both bad for women. It has been suggested by some that women are naturally monogamous and that men are naturally polygamous. From the viewpoint of natural selection, men have more to gain from multiple partners because they can have more children and propogate their genes, but women can at the most only be pregnant once every nine months, and the number of partners they have does nothing to change this. The natural order seems to uphold the idea of women having one partner. Many who do not accept Christianity would still accept the basic point that leadership tends to be male. This means they can accept the basic logic of the Christian leadership argument - that a family needs only one leader and that two leaders is not viable!!!!!
hmmmm, lets now compare this to ISLAM!! THE OPPRESSIVE RELIGION! "If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one" (Qur'an 4:3). Is it a wonder that everything in this world has become OK, prostitution, adultery, having sex with more than one person, homosexuality...?? is it a wonder why islam is considered to be an oopressive religion??? because it values its people... it gives women and men the same equal rights!!!!!!!!!!.. but this is not seen by many people... b/c people only want to see the cruel side of islam... islam is based upon justice and peace.. There is nothing in the islam that prevents women from getting educated, from having a choiceMany judge islam by a few programs that cnn puts on tv like BEHIND THE VEIL... where women are not allowed to be educated and women are covered from top to bottom.. u r basing ur view on myths and not facts... educate URSELF people. The problem with non moslims is that u guys hate seeing the fact that there are people out there who love their religion and love to follow it.. u hate the fact that we have some restrictions on us.. people like u want everything to be OK... people like u want everything and anything to be fine, its a part of life to try everything.. but this is not what ISLAM is about.. ISLAM is not about what this life has but what the next life has.. and after all, all the things that I as a moslim cant do.. is to my own benfit!!! i cant drink... ! I wonder how good drinking is to ur health... and i wonder how many poeple die b/c of alchole... i cant have sex with all my class mates.. i wonder how aids and HIV spreads around so fast???!! i cant gamble! i wonder how many homes broke down and how many families were destroyed b/c of gambling.. i cant walk in in a strip club and look at other naked, just b/c its fun...! hmm, i wonder what kind of a thing i will end up doing after i walk out of that strip club.. and i just really wonder how many families broke down b/c of such places!. IAM COVERED!!!! i wonder how many guys check me out like iam some kind of a creature walking around for guys to check my ##### and boobs and think ooh shes hot! iam not a sexual object for others to stare at! i dont wanna be the next cindy crawford.. and i sure dont wanna end up anorexic b/c i cant keep up with the "right body size" and "fashion" thats in this summer... i wonder how many people dare to go to the beach and wear a bikini b/c they have a bit of flab on them and there size is just not appropiate... IAM protected from all that b/c iam muslim!!! ISLAM TEACHES OTHERS TO VALUE WOMEN BASED ON THEIR INTELLEGENCE, PERSIONALITY AND WHAT THEY HAVE TO STAND FOR... not on if they have stretch marks or not!... i can keep going on for days……. How is it possible that the more clothes u take off, the more so called FREEDOM u have.. and the more LIBERATED u r!!..
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world... do u want hear something really strange, subhana allah.. with all that has been said about women in Islam, would u believe I told u that almost all of the converts to islam, are WOMEN!
The funny thing is, if Christians would get back to their real religion.. they would realize that its nothing different than Islam… The true religion of God!!!…

Netcurtains
12-03-2002, 08:59
Hi,
Thankyou for that wonderful letter.
Many christians and other non-muslims wanted to read something like this for weeks. Most of the time all we got was cut and pastes. It has been very difficult to get dialogues going with REAL people (not cutters and pasters).
Obviously I disagree with 98.5% of what you say (or more - perhaps the full 100%).
I seriously do believe you can measure religions using statistics and other scientific analysis.
Using statistics and time as a key I think it would be safe to assume if you lived at about 700AD the muslim religion would be very appealing. The science and sociology in the Qu'ran was at the cutting edge of scholarship.

IMHO by about 1450AD (the fall of 'Rome' - Constantinople) European Protestantism (eg Tudor England and some German principalities) was better and has remained better since that time. I honestly believe since about 1450AD. Thomas More's UTOPIA was just one of many works of literature. Hampton Court is obviously a fine structure even by the high standards of Muslim Courts. The tide turned. If Allah existed would have let this go on for 552 years? Not only that but the gap is accelerating? Not only that but many many muslims are fighting to get into the decadent west?

Think it through.

Lulua
12-03-2002, 09:19
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

Wow, muslima...you sure do have a lot on your mind...so much in one post!! MashaAllah...keep it up, and keep it going live. But...just a little sisterly advice...try (know personally that it's hard sometimes) to keep your posts mainly to one topic at hand. All in all, great job.

And, now for Netcurtains...sorry to burst your bubble, but Allah IS alive...for He is the One who never dies...constantly living...perhaps on a plane or in a sense which we cannot imagine...but surely living and present at all times, in all generations, and in all places. Why He lets the world go on as it does, or why He lets ppl act and react as they do...we cannot understand...for He has only endowed each of us with a percentage of knowledge, wisdom and the ability to attain such knowledge and wisdom. Islam is the religion that He has chosen and directed for mankind for all ages...it is for man to accept or reject. This is the message which is given in the Quran...and this is in my own words, not 'copy-paste' as you so apparently hate. Sorry for the technicalities...but even tho we are real ppl here...presenting Islam in it's true form, and not as my own personal emotional preference is the best way for ppl to learn. Not to mention the best way to present the religion as it should be presented. Ppl like you have been misled and misdirected about Islam to the point that you disastrously misunderstand Islam (regardless of how you think that you understand it)...so if I or others are to present an emotional aspect of Islam, it would be just as misdirecting.

Suggest that you read up on the Quran, Netcurtains...could do you a world of good, really...and at the very least...could do you no harm.

Lulua.

MuSLiMa
12-03-2002, 12:44
SaLaM SiSter LuLua...
You know when u get into a forum like this.. where there are so many different topics and so many things that u just wanna reply to.. u dont know where to start from... u just wanan keep typing and typing auntil u get ur point acroos.. but i guess people just dont wanna accept anything...!!



FREEDOM OR ISLAM for WOMAN?
By Dr Nazreen Nawaz
http://www.theasianoutlook.com/17febfreedomorislam.htm

As women, each one of us searches for a way of life that will bring us
contentment and true happiness. In addition, we desire a society and system of governing that will establish respect for the woman, always protect her honour and dignity, and produce an environment where she feels secure. However, such an ideal way of life and system of ruling should also enable the men and women within the society to interact in order to create a prosperous and progressive climate for its citizens.

The current, dominant view that emanates from all corners of the globe is that this honour, respect and security of the woman can only be established by her adoption of the western secular way of life of capitalism. This has as its basis, the separation of God from determining how life's affairs should be organized and solved. Its belief is that religion should be kept to the home, mosque or church and not allowed to affect the governing of society. That within society, it is the human being who should set all the standards, values and laws for all to follow and not God. Integral to this way of life are ideas such as freedom, liberation, and equality, which all
share the common thread that the human being, male or female should live their life according to their own instincts and desires, set their own limits for the society, and not be shackled by the limits established by God or any religion. The dominant view then is that it is only through the ideas of freedom, liberation and equality that the woman can lead a contented and happy life where all oppression and backwardness is lifted. Alongside this is the image that only a democratic or man-made system of ruling that safeguards these ideas can produce a society where she is respected, valued, honoured, and protected while at the same time securing a prosperous environment for all.

If we examine this view, we can see that it is a fallacy. Freedom of
expression which includes the right to legally portray the body of a woman in any fashion desired, has given rise to the multi-billion pornography industry, making her an economic commodity and dishonouring her. In the US, pornography films produce revenue of $8 billion per year. Britain sells 20 million copies of pornography magazines every year. Freedom of ownership that has produced a multi-billion-fashion industry that consistently portrays an unrealistic body image of the woman, in its pursuit of dollars, has produced a culture of paranoia about body shape and appearance culminating in a host of eating disorders. The BMA reported that 7 million women in the UK suffer from eating disorders. In the US, 1 in 100 women between the ages of 12 and 18 have anorexia. Personal freedom or liberation has produced a culture where men and women are encouraged to mix together, date, and have any relationship that they desire. Coupled with the constant agitation of the sexual instinct through pornography and the images from the advertising and entertainment industry has resulted in a lethal cocktail in the society where sexual harassment and rape has become an epidemic. In the US, a woman is raped every minute. All this is reflected in the attempted
suicide statistics in the western world, where for example in the US there is an attempted suicide every 30 minutes, the majority being women. Is this not oppression of the body and the mind? The secular ideals have not produced the honour and respect that the woman desires.

One further point to understand is that the ideas of freedom, liberation, and equality were not so much introduced to elevate the position of women in society but rather for the economic need of the western society. As Bernard Lewis writes in his book, "The Middle East", in the Chapter entitled, "From Freedom to Freedom", "A major factor in the emancipation of women was economic need..."

We cannot deny that such problems also exist within the Muslim communities and countries today in increasing numbers but the reason for this is that our societies have also become plagued with the idea of freedom, through the media and education curricula that have been mirrored upon the western models. As Dr 'Abdul Hammed al-Ansari, the dean of the faculty of Sharee'ah at the University of Qatar recently stated, "I support the American call to review our education curriculum." In addition, the ruling systems governing our lands are no more Islamic than the British Parliament and the US Congress, applying an ugly hybrid of western and traditional laws with a few Islamic rules.

The other global view is that any way of life that opposes this secular belief, its values, and laws, will naturally be oppressive towards the woman, producing a life of misery, discontentment, and backwardness. The image is that any system of ruling that places God as the sovereign Lawmaker for the society will create a society where the woman is undervalued disrespected, dishonoured, and insecure. The misconception that has been propagated then, is that an Islamic Society that is governed by a true Islamic State built completely upon Islam in its ruling, economics, judiciary, education, and social laws, will produce a situation where the woman is hidden away from society, forced into marriage, used as a servant by her husband existing only to fulfil his sexual desires, with no access to education or work or even essential needs. Basically, to be condemned to a life of total misery and imprisonment. The western media as proofs for their claim repeatedly cites the pseudo-Islamic states such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia that do not represent a true Islamic State built solely upon the laws of Islam. As evident in one recent article written by Polly Toynbee, a well-known writer in the Guardian, "Wherever Islam either is the government or bears down upon the government, it imposes harsh regimes that deny the most basic human rights." Islam does not believe in the ideas of freedom, liberation, or equality of the woman, for it does not leave the human being to decide how he or she should live her life according to her own desires or allow mankind to legislate their own laws for the society and create their own system from the ignorance, bias, greed, and limited understanding that they have of each others needs. The system comes completely from the Creator, covering all of life's affairs: ruling, economic, judicial, education and the social system
dealing with the relationship and duties of men and women within the
society. As a verse in the Holy Qur'an states in a chapter entitled Ahzab, [Ahzab:36] "It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger, to have any option about their decision. If anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong path".

Within Islam, the Muslim woman has contentment in her life, for the only expectations she has to live up to are those of the Creator and not the continually changing or unrealistic expectations of her husband, family, community, or society. She is not expected to be the superwoman who has a successful busy career but at the same time has to fulfill the duties of being a wife and mother perfectly.

With regards to the honour, respect, and security that a woman deserves, Islam establishes this in two ways. Firstly, Islam commands that the man views the woman as an honour to be protected at all times and as a trust that the Creator has placed in his hand, whether it is his mother, daughter, wife, or any woman in society. He understands that his treatment towards her can bring him either reward or punishment in the Hereafter. In a saying of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) he said, "The world and all things in the world are precious but the most precious thing in the world is a virtuous woman". In his last sermon to the Muslims, he reminded them, "O People, it is true that you have certain rights, with regards to your women but they also haverights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

Within a true Islamic Society, such an understanding will affect the men within the society at large, who will view the woman as an honour regardless of whether she has a career or not. This can be seen in an example at the time when there was a true Islamic society. The leader or Khalifah at the time of this example was Umar bin Al-Khattab(ra). A situation arose where a Jew was found assassinated. Umar asked the people if they knew about the matter, whereupon a Muslim called Bak'r in Shad'dakh appeared before him and said, "I have killed him". Umar was astonished and asked him for the reason. The man explained that a Muslim brother had gone on Jihad and consigned his family members to him to look over in his absence. When he arrived at the house of the brother, he had found the Jew inside reciting poetry slandering
the reputation of the brother's wife by implying that he had spent the night with her in his absence. As a result, he killed him to protect the honour of the woman who had been placed under his protection. On hearing all the details, Umar exempted him from paying any compensation to the family of the Jew.

The second manner by which Islam protects the honour of the woman is by the presence of an Islamic State or Khilafah. The Khilafah is the ruling system of Islam that applies all of the commands of Islam that includes for example the prayer, the fasting, the zakat (obligatory charity), the economic laws, the social system that regulates the relationship of men and women within the society, and the punishment system of Islam. It is this true Islamic State that existed for over 1300 years but has been absent over our lands today for almost 80 years. This explains the increasing rape, domestic violence, shame, and humiliation that the woman faces presently within the Muslim world. It is only through the re-establishment of the Khilafah that
will enable the propagation of the correct viewpoint and mentality to the individuals within the society through the education system and the media and have the authority to enforce the appropriate punishments upon those who dishonour the woman. Let me show you one of many examples.

During the time when a man called Mutassim Billah was the Khalifah, a Roman soldier dishonoured a Muslim woman by uncovering part of her body. When news of this incident reached the Khalifah, he called an emergency meeting with his ministers and officials. When the people asked him for what reason he had gathered them in such an urgent manner, he replied to them that he had heard that a Muslim woman has been dishonoured and ordered the people to organise an army to destroy the largest fort of the Roman. A massive army was despatched upon his orders.

Such is the duty and the capability of the Khalifah and the Islamic State to protect the honour of the woman. The establishment of a true Islamic State upon the world again would produce a unique society where women would be able to study and work in various fields such as doctors, teachers, engineers, nuclear physicists, computer analysts, business women, and judges but at the same time be within an environment of security where her honour would be safeguarded.

One may think that such a society and state is too idealistic to ever
materialise. However, I would leave you with two final points. Firstly, the reality of Islamic history shows otherwise. Secondly, do you not think that a Creator that can produce the perfect harmony and organization of the earth with its plants and animals, the stars, and the universe cannot also provide the human being with a system of life that if applied correctly can bring harmony, tranquility, and security to man and his society?

About the writer Dr Nazreen Nawaz Born in Sri Lanka but brought up and
educated in Britain Studied medicine in Kings College London with an
intercalated BSc Degree in Biomedical Science. Included within the BSc
degree was time spent within Cancer research.

Until her university days she was only a Muslim by name with a little
knowledge about Islam but after meeting some young Muslims She became very interested and conducted a detailed research and was very impressed by the outstanding and exemplary behaviour of young members of Hizb-ut-Tahrir and eventually she joined them and since than she has devoted all her energies to religious work.(Ayesha Yazdani Editor www.theasianoutlook.com)

Rasha
12-03-2002, 13:04
= )

good post.

Well....just wanted to add.... about what Lulua said... Allah is living..... it is impossible for us to understand the creator. He is above us in the sky..... but with us everywhere with His knowledge and Wisdom.

As to why things happen the way they do, that is because we have free well.....

take for example satan. He is bad. He was created by God...does that mean God is bad because he made something which is evil?? and I'm talking about God in general (whether u think he is Jesus or Allah or whatever u want).
Of course we know God is not evil. God created us all....including the bad and including Satan. He gave each the free well.... then... he showed us the will....and it was our choice to decide what to do...and based on that... we shall be judged and rewarded or punished. If we did not have freewell... then it is not fair to put some in hell fire and others in heavens is it??

Let me give another example.... if I go to university.... my family push me to study engineering.... and i hate this career the rest of my life.... is it fair for me??? No its not!

I'll blame them cause its THEIR decision. But.... say I go into engineering and then I hate it..... who do I blame?? Myself. Is it fair?? yea sure.. i chose it!

and to Allah are the highest examples.... if Allah says ok... i'll create 10 people.... and i think i'll put 5 in heavens and 5 in hell.... this is not fair. And Allah is the most Just and Most Fair. So... He created 10 people, gave them free well.... and decided the situations they shall go through.... now what they decide to do is their free well.... and based on their decisions... they will be rewarded or punished.

Same goes for Satan. He has free well too. Now Satan decides to mislead many people.... sadly people follow him... we all need to learn how to push Satan away from us all the time.

hope this explains a bit.

Muslims reading this....please correct me if i have mistakes as I must admit i'm not yet a scholar in islam. I'm a scholar wanna-be.

= )

Finally, whatever good i said is from Allah and whatever bad is from me and from Satan.

wassalamu alikom
peace to All

Rasha

Rasha
12-03-2002, 13:15
Just an addition....

now its purely about the main topic.... women. I am a woman... 19 years old.... I have come to Islam at the age of 17. Compare what i was with before.... makeup, clothes, nail polish, etc...and compare now my hijab (head cover), jilbab (lose clothes) etc.... I am so glad Allah has guided me.

Islamic dress code liberates women and gives them a chance to be evaluated for who they are. I was dressed like this for 2 years... during that time, all my teachers, classmates and friends respected me. I talked to guys at school.... they all respected me. I even had close friends from before.... one guy is Canadian... has nothing to do with islam.... we were good friends... i only saw him in school... dunno how he's doing right now that i'm in university... but never the less, hijab gives u the respect you need.

Is it hot??
not really. You will be hot whether u wear a skirt, a t-shirt or ur semi naked! If your crazy... u can wear really heavy things in summer and boil.... but if ur smart... wear light clothes... u can't imagine how nice it feels. I spent last summer wearing my black abaya (similar to Saudi style but without face cover - hope that is on the way :) ) and to tell u all the truth... it was NICE. It was not boiling hot.... the material is soft... you don't feel so warm.

is it hard to put and keep on?
no...like anything else it takes practice. If you consider... a woman who doesn't wear hijab spends 30 minutes or more in front of the mirror fixing her hair, make up... etc.... a hijabi woman will take 10 - 15 minutes wearing the hijab, if she's not an expert by now.. and 30 minutes on a really horrible day when her hijab just won't sit in place properly. (if she is wearing some of the complicated styles)
Alhamdulillah wearing it properly, simple normal style is the easiest and most efficient style.

hmm.... what else?

I mean look at the "style" now. Women and men are wearing bandanas on their heads. No one questions their freedom.... why is it when a muslim woman decides to cover herself and practice her religion.. it becomes "oppression".

Even the nuns used to wear full hijab... real beautiful one too. SubhanaAllah...and what colours did they wear?? black and white!! The two best colours that many women like. So... why is it now an issue whether its freedom or oppression?

Yes I know in some places women are forced to wear it... but almost 80% of women wear it out of choice.... and in the west, almost 95% wear it out of choice if not more.

just some thoughs
= )

salam
peace
Rasha

Netcurtains
12-03-2002, 20:29
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-03-02 AT 07:35 PM (GMT)]Hi,
being a man of course I cannot talk about women wearing veils etc as it is a feminist issue.

I can say if a woman wants to be modest it does not mean she has to believe in God. The two are clearly seperate issues.

Many young girls suffer from bulimia. The root cause of this "illness" is some girls feel unhappy about turning into women at such a fast rate. Islamic clothing might well be a cure for bulimic girls. Perhaps some Islamic girls take up wearing the veil at this stressful time. Perhaps its just a phase? Will these "go-ahead" Islamic teenagers still be wearing them when they are thirty?

I can't critise women for wearing veils as I am a man (or encourage them either) but I think I can critise the religion that promotes it for women but not for men. Women clearly like the look of men too! (lol) In the western world when both men and women are out at night it is men who mainly end up fighting, drunk and dangerous. Therefore, from a muslim point of view, you would think it logical that men should wear veils and stay at home? It is men after all who are causing the problem?

You also said - Who can believe in "santa Claus"?

Of course you must know that is this based on a real person. Saint Nicklaus. Old Nic was a wealthy Spanard who bought gifts to poor Dutch kids (or something on those lines). I though everyone knew that?
(look up Saint Nicklaus and Christmas on the internet).

Easter in the Bible?
Of course its remembrance is in the bible!
Luke Ch 22 v19-v20 "And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it saying, 'This is my body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of me.' Likewise he took the cup after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you'".

Just like the good people of Nicea gave us the Creed they also gave us the calculation for easter:

According to a decision made by the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.,
Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon on or after
March 21st. The full moon is in the gospel story (of course).

The Tooth Fairy?
This is not part of christianity so I cannot comment - but why is it less believeable then to believe in Allah or God or Jesus - I don't see the logic? Parents leave money under the pillow and take the tooth away - but are our minds being controlled by the fairy or do we do it on our own? I'm sure if fairies exist they would be quite subtle.


Do I understand the Muslim religion? Of course not. I only have a very slight understanding of Christianity and that is after many years and IMHO "spiritual" events/occurances in my life that lead me to acknowledge that there is something there.... but what it is is not necessarily in any religious text book - or perhaps it is. I do believe that an athiest who is willing to die for that belief is probably a hero.

Netcurtains
13-03-2002, 00:32
Hi Lulua,
you explained why Muslim posters like to use cut & paste so much to explain their position.
You made some good points.
Now hear my counter arguments.

1. To a typical Christian the cut and paste web sites seem to contained lots of contrived statements. All Christians know that you can see more or less anything you want to in the Bible. What counts the reason you are reading the bible. The cut & paste information you ALL seem to provide is clearly (unambiguously) been provided by people who obviously have read the bible just to find quotes that will knock the Christian religion and back up the Muslim faith. Its rediculous. anyone can play that game. I'm sure I could come up with quotes to show that Elvis is still alive. None of the sites have things like "gosh I'm amazed even though I personally don't think Jesus is God their is some Biblical evidence that he might be".
.....so....this leads us into point 2.

2. Because the scholarship of the anti-Christian cut and paste stuff looks superfical and weak we all assume your PRO-Islam cut & pastes will be of the same standard....as they are often the same authors. This is a mistake on our part as of course just as these guys are not experts on Christianity this does not mean they don't know their own religion.
But we are so biased against them by this stage that it is pointless us reading the links as we just think it will be nonsense on the same level of "drival" as the anti-Christian stuff. To be honest I read the anti-hindu threads on your other boards and even though I'm not a Hindu I can see that they were gibberish and bordering on being insulting. Why haven't you done any anti-Buddhist? I have a theory why your board doesn't contain any anti-buddhist threads at present. Thats another story.

3. However when you talk PERSONALLY even when you are wrong it does no diservice to your religion as of course you are not a spokes person for your religion - you are an individual who only speaks for yourself. It is clear its your personal view not an organisational view. Its clear cut that my views are my own not Pope John Pauls.

Rasha
13-03-2002, 03:12
ok.... I noticed our dear Christian friends hate cut and pastes.... but this article is really good on the issue of "men wearing the hijab"

enjoy!

Hijaab is an Attitude, not a Fashion (and it's for Men Too!!)

By Fawzia Malik

Wearing the Hijaab isn't just a matter of simply putting a piece of cloth on
your head, it is an attitude, a way of thinking and behaving,
and accepting yourself for who and what you are. Basically it constitutes an
Islamic way of life, it is a statement which indeed should
portray a certain attitude.

A woman may indeed wear a long skirt and a scarf, but if she flirts
constantly, then she can't be really described as wearing the
Hijaab (Indeed clothes should be long, loose and not see through, after
which any style of clothing is applicable). The whole idea
involves conducting oneself with dignity at all times (that means running
for the bus and boisterous behaviour in public is not a good
idea!!). As previously mentioned, the Hijaab depicts a statement, and that
is something one should be continually aware of. It
identifies you as a Muslim, and ultimately people will judge Islam by you,
and that is a heavy responsibility!! Yet sisters, we must also
be thankful that by wearing the Hijaab, we go a long way in fulfilling our
duties of Dawah. Curiosity prompts people to question us,
giving us the opportunity to show the non-muslims the beauty of our
religion. O.k., so we may get the stares at times (to which one
rapidly becomes immune), but it is amazing how many are sincerely
interested, oh and not to forget the redoubtable old British ladies
on the Tube ("Oh I do like your headdress, my dear!!!").

Hijaab isn't meant to restrict you from doing the kind of things you want to
do, it is a blessing because it makes us check our behaviour
continuously, preventing us from doing the things that muslims shouldn't be
doing anyway. Anything (with the blessings of the
Almighty, is possible) -studying, working etc. etc. -provided it is within
the bounds of Islam (Halal).

Sometimes, however the decision to wear the Hijaab can become extra
complicated through external pressures, notably family and
friends. Unfortunately, even some muslims nowadays look upon the Hijaab as
being too "extreme", and the like and when these
attitudes come from members of your family then the decision becomes all the
more difficult. Speaking from experience, things do
change, because ultimately, you are doing this for Allah (s.w.t), and he
will make it easy for you, by "softening" the hearts of those that
may not be all that encouraging. Eventually they themselves will want to
follow you because deep down they know that it is the right
thing to do. If that doesn't help, then this should convince you:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said
that the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be
upon him) said : Allah the Almighty says:

" I am as my servant thinks I am...If he draws near to Me a hand's span, I
draw near to him an arms length; and if he draws near to Me
an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes
walking, I go to him at speed."

On the other side, it is important to ascertain the motive for wearing the
Hijaab. If you are thinking of wearing it to please your
husband, to impress people at the mosque, or just as a change, then please
think again. Hijaab (as with everything else) is to please
Allah (s.w.t) only, any other motive will not sustain that conviction.

A word also to our brothers; Hijaab may seem to be merely a woman's issue,
but that is not so. Muslim men have to follow a dress
code too, no matter if it isn't as extensive as for women it still exists!
The men,like women, should also wear loose clothes -so no tight
fitting jeans please!! Their attitude to all women should also always remain
respectful and business like, as the women's attitude to
men should be.

Finally, all of the above pales in significance to the words of our Creator
(s.w.t):

Say to the believing men That they should lower Their gaze and
guardTheir modesty: that will make For greater purity
for them: And Allah is well acquainted With all that they do. And say
to the believing women That they should lower
Their gaze and guard Their modesty: that they Should not display their
Beauty and ornaments except What
(ordinarily) appear Thereof; that they should Draw their veils over
Their bosoms and not display Their beauty except
To their husbands, their fathers, Their Husband's fathers, their sons,
Their brothers or their brothers' sons, Or their sisters' sons, Or their women, or their slaves Whom their right hands
possess, or male attendants Free of sexual desires. Or small children who Have no carnal knowledge of women;And that they Should not strike their feet In order to draw attention To their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! Turn ye all together Towards Allaah in repentance that ye may be successful.(Al -Quran, ch.24:30-31)

Rasha
13-03-2002, 03:15
just wanted to add another comment.... very few women take off the hijab at the age of 30!!! Women who "shall" take off the hijab, do so around their teenage years!!

If you pass these years with hijab.... few take it off... i personally would be disgusted if i took off my hijab!!! eeeewww...and have guys look at me again!!

in your dreams (not anyone specific...just general statement).

:)

indeed like you would protect a jewel so none will touch it... you keep it safe and covered as to keep it beautiful...this is a woman.. a jewel that must be kept safe!!

a woman is also like flower.... you must take care of it... its as fragile as the rose!

:)

salam
Rasha

Netcurtains
13-03-2002, 09:09
Hi,
you said "a woman is also like flower.... you must take care of it... its as fragile as the rose!"

Nothing wrong with roses or woman but "fragile" is incorrect.

The Bible and Torah say Women are the Pinicle of gods creation as they were created last. You can see this in everyday life. Although slightly more boys are born, right from birth the death rate of boys is higher. Boys suffer from many more genetic problems (colour blindness is just the tip of the iceberg).

"Fragile" ? Yeah right. Pigs fly.

Rasha
13-03-2002, 13:16
lol...

this post made me laugh.... subhanaAllah.... well why did u look at it in that manner....

fragile didn't mean fragile in terms of who lives more. However, a woman has more tendancy to be "lady like". I do'nt have much experience with western women these days.... but... from the women I know... we are very sensitive, and the lightest hit would break my shoulder!!!! (not literaly of course but you got the idea). This is what I meant by fragile.

however, it is proven that Allah has given women more strength in enduring pain, etc. Look for example at labour!! How many men can take that!! beats me!!

Its the gift Allah gave women... to be fragile when there is no need to be otherwise... but when it is serious... they endure the pain (most of them at least).

this is what i meant... by the way this is nothing islamic here about women flowers or whatever... just my personal opinion!
the jewel however I have heard several time in islamic lectures etc.

salam
Rasha

Rasha
13-03-2002, 13:21
I was just reading ur post again.... subhanaAllah.... you know... men should take care of women... cause they are created with more strength. This is why they are the ones who work. You should realize that women are weak in body as compared to their male brothers...and thus you must take care of them.

The prophet peace be upon him said... the best of you are the ones who are best to their families (meaning wife, and children). Now you might ask how did i know he meant wife and children by the word family? ok ok fine his mom and sister included!! :)

so... its up to you what u think... sadly these days women are like men.... they try to be like men in everything.. clothing (pants), work (police officers/pilots/politicians..etc), they way they build their bodies (working out and gaining muscles)... they don't want to have kids etc!

The list is endless...this is why to you it seems like women are not weaker than men... but if women took her role that she was created for. ... she would be back to normal and would be fragile in her own way... but strong when need be. Actually an idea just poped to my mind... hmm... the women who lived at the time of the prophet... they had the softest of hearts... yet they had strength in faith and thus that gave them strength in everything. SubhanaAllah.... maybe we just lack faith!

peace for now

MuSLiMa
13-03-2002, 13:59
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 13-03-02 AT 01:14 PM (GMT)]"The Bible and Torah say Women are the Pinicle of gods creation as they were created last"

I have actually read the bible.. and i havent seen anything inteh bible that talks about women in a decent, repectful way.. infact ur so called god said nothing in teh bible to show that women are respectable creatures... and all it talked about was how women are shamefull.. and that they should not talk without the premission of their husbands... and so on... The bible says.. women must suffer from childbirth.. The Bible view of the role of women as property, the customs and demands related to marriage and inheritance and an obvious demonstration of male dominance and control and u can see all this described described in ur very own bible! in Genesis chapter 38.8.In the Bible, all women were property that belonged to their father or husband.... Women were members of the covenant people of God only because of their relationship to their father, brother or husband.
That is all i have read in ur bible!.. never did i read anything but that... so when christians say that moslem women are oppressed... all i can tell them is that if u truly belive in teh bible.. just go bak and read what it says in their.. and ull know who oppressed women!!!

****The Qur'an states: ****
"...But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has placed much good." (Qur'an 4: l9).

****A man came to Prophet Muhammad (P) asking: *****
O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company? The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man said then who else: The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man asked, Then who else?
Only then did the Prophet (P) say, Your father. (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).

A famous saying of The Prophet is "Paradise is at the feet of mothers." (In Al'Nisa'I, Ibn Majah, Ahmad).

"It is the generous (in character) who is good to women, and it is the wicked who insults them."

Rasha
13-03-2002, 14:16
loved ur post Muslimah .... especially the last hadith :)

MuSLiMa
14-03-2002, 01:11
Thanx sister Rasha!!!!

Just to add in a few more points...
In Islam there is absolutely no difference between men and women... as far as their relationship to God is concerned, as both are promised the same reward for good conduct and the same punishment for evil conduct. The Qur'an says: And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women. (2:226)

The Quran also states For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise, for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward. (33:35)

The prophet (pbuh) said that teh best thing a man can have and choose is a rightous wife... never did he say shut ur wife up and dont let her speak in the mosque!. the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "The best property a man can have is a remembering tongue (i.e. which remembers God), a grateful heart and a believing wife who helps him in his faith." And again: "The world, the whole of it, is a commodity and the best of the commodities of the world is a virtuous wife."