View Full Version : Role of Women
Greetings All!
I've been away for awhile debating with a conservative Roman Catholic about ordaining women to Catholic priesthood. Currently, only men are permitted ordination in the Catholic Church. Indeed, in the Latin Rites, only celibate men can be ordained. Personally, I believe that there is Biblical warrant for allowing women ordination, as well as married priests.
Any way, this has me wondering -- is there any movement in Islam to allow women to lead a mosque?
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Netcurtains
06-02-2002, 00:35
LAST EDITED ON 05-02-02 AT 11:35 PM (GMT)[p]I would like to see a woman pope.
It will be interesting to see how the
Church of England pick their new Archbishop Of
Canterbury (vote in Novemeber?)
Three big runners:
1) A bishop From Pakistan is the conservative favourite.
2) The Bishop of Guildford wants women bishops (he gets my vote).
3) The bishop of wales (something to do with *** rights?)
seekeroftruth
06-02-2002, 01:12
salam to all!
Long time, were have you been? Regarding the issue raised; women and the mosque;
I QTE;
"....Any way, this has me wondering -- is there any movement in Islam to allow women to lead a mosque?..."
Now, i cannot answer that 'directly', for the reason being i DO not know of any movement or groups that make women 'only' lead in a mosque.
REGARDING WOMEN BEING ALLOWED TO PRAY IN A MOSQUE OR NOT.
Basically; Yes women are allowed to pray in the mosque.
The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: If your women asked your permission to go to the Masjid (mosque), do not prevent them from going" Another version says: "Do not prevent the women of ALLAH from going to the Masjids of ALLAH"
Women are encouraged to pray in their houses though (still they may go to the Masjid if they do so desire)
The Prophet (pbuh) of ALLAH (swt) once had a woman who came up to came and said "Oh Prophet of ALLAH, I love to pray with you, the prophet (saw) said: I heard, but praying in your room is even better for you"
Bascially this is the best hadith that came to mind, when explaining this concept of women and the mosque, here goes;
>>>
" Do not prevent your women from going to the masaajid, however, their homes are better for them "
Simple and what a beautiful hadith from the prophet.
>>
WOMEN LEADING SALAT
And if the issue is about the women leading the salat, then this is the only hadith that i found;
" "No woman is permitted to lead a male in Prayer." (Ibn Majah)
--------
Please do ask questions and, if i or any other member is able to help, inshallah we will help you!!
sadiQ!! (got to go...)
Look to this day! Yesterday is but a dream, and tomorrow is only a vision. But today, well-lived, makes every yesterday a dream of happiness, and every tomorrow a vision of hope. - Brother SadiQ
>
>Any way, this has me wondering
>-- is there any movement
>in Islam to allow women
>to lead a mosque?
>
Hello,
The majority of Muslim jurists have held that women are unable to be Imams, which are the prayer leaders, for any mixed congregation. There are of course the view that women can lead a female only congregation. And there are some although view indeed such as At Tabari that conclude that a woman can lead men and women in prayer, ie be an Imam. There is a hadith in which Muhammad pbuh allowed a particular woman to lead the prayer w/in her household which included men. But other than that the prayer leader has always historically been a man.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
LAST EDITED ON 12-02-02 AT 08:10 AM (GMT)[p]repeated message so i deleted it
Ruqayyah
22-02-2002, 07:32
In The Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
If you look at it from the science view and in terms of mind-power, men generally have stronger mind-power than women (this is fact).That is Allah and His Messenger said that the role of a leader is usually suitable for men.Your father is the leader of your family.Women can become leaders only among women.
Wassalam.
Netcurtains
22-02-2002, 10:02
LAST EDITED ON 23-02-02 AT 10:49 AM (GMT)[p]Sir,
It is scientifically provable that in the UK girls get better exam results then boys in many subjects. The top performing schools are normally girls. This "out-performing" by girls is quite common in the USA And Europe as well.
For example my wife has a Maths Honours degree from the top university in Scotland - I can hardly remember my phone number.
Men are aggressive and quick tempered .
http://education.guardian.co.uk/gcse2001/story/0,10950,540752,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_883000/883836.stm
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/boysgirls001221.html
Netcurtains
22-02-2002, 16:04
LAST EDITED ON 23-02-02 AT 10:49 AM (GMT)[p]and last year
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_1118000/1118281.stm
In the Bible when Mary was to conceive Jesus it was not God the Father that went to see Mary it was the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit widely considered to be the FEMALE aspect of Gods nature (from various Torah bible quotes). No MALE was involved. Jesus considered the Holy Spirit GREATER then himself. EVE was Gods LAST CREATION - The PINICLE of Creation.
Warning this site contains very simple music (so turn sound off before you read if you do not like music)
http://home.earthlink.net/~lifestream/Ascending/Feminine.htm
Netcurtains
23-02-2002, 11:52
Is it a "bug" in the Qu'ran when it implies women's memories are not as good as a mans?
http://www.msoworld.com/brain/mental/brain_nibs_old1.html
"
Other differences between male and female thinking in healthy brains have been discovered. For example, men are better at mentally rotating an image in order to solve a problem. Women can recall lists of words or paragraphs of text better than men
"
Women having better memories - this certainly tallys with the UK academic statistics.
LAST EDITED ON 23-02-02 AT 09:48 PM (GMT)[p]Greeting Ruqayyah,
I am not familiar with Arabic and Middle Eastern names. Yet, somewhere in my recent reading on the history of Islam, I saw that a woman had your name (Ruqayyah). Is your name feminine? Or, more to what I want to know, are you female?
I am curious, if you are a woman and a Muslim, do you really believe that women have inferior minds to men?
I suppose that what Netcurtains wrote would not be convincing, since it is not in the Qu'ran. As a Christian, I agree with what Netcurtains says about Christian revelation (the Bible) saying the Holy Spirit is usually feminine, and the Bible hinting that EVE is the height of creation since she was made last in a progressive account. Furthermore, as a Catholic, I have a great devotion to Mary as a model disciple of Christ. And even Christ is called "Sophia" by Saint Paul, a female image applied to a divine man. Yet, everything Netcurtains and I say about what the Bible says would be unconvincing to Muslims.
I persoanlly believe strongly that men and women are DIFFERENT, but EQUAL. Furthermore, I believe that Allah is revealed in BOTH man and woman.
I am not a scientist, but I have read articles that indicate that one side of a male person's brain is washed with testosterone in the womb, causing men's brains to function differently. We tend to think "linearly", have good spatial relation skills, and generally are better at math. Also, due to continuing high levels of testosterone throughout our lives, men are more competitive and aggressive, and more war-like!
On the other hand, women have brains that are actually larger in proportion to body mass, and the bridge between the two sides of the brain is also larger in women. Thus, women generally have much higher intuition and usually have far superior skills in linguistics. Because of estrogen, and the menstral cycle, women are generally more emotionally mature than men, and more in touch with their bodies. A strong argument could be made that women are smarter than men.
Women think "cirularly", rather than "linearly", but that does not mean one way is "better" than another. It's just different.
Even these differences I describe can be exaggerated too much. A women with a 150 IQ will be much better at math and science than a man with with 120 IQ, regardless of the fact that she is a woman. Likewise, a man raised in a family that is educated, psycologically healthy and promotes the arts will likely be more emotionally mature and intuitive than a woman raised by abusive parents, no education, and poverty. Biology does not determine everything, but it does predict tendencies in general populations.
I think religion has been male dominated for too long (and I am a man). I believe that it is time for women to speak up in religious communities and share their intuitions and cirular reasonings for the benefit of all humanity! Maybe women have the insight to help us men stop killing one another!
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
>In The Name of God, Most
>Gracious, Most Merciful
>
>If you look at it from
>the science view and in
>terms of mind-power, men generally
>have stronger mind-power than women
>(this is fact).That is Allah
>and His Messenger said that
>the role of a leader
>is usually suitable for men.Your
>father is the leader of
>your family.Women can become leaders
>only among women.
>Wassalam.
as salaam alaikum
As a muslim woman i strongly disagree with this conclusion of why women are not to be an Imam. I find the understanding that many pass off of womens intelliegence, mind power and other related topics more cultural than islamic. In fact to be very honest I find them insulting to Islam and Muslims in general.
An Imam would have to be able to lead the prayers every day five times a day. A woman who has a menstrual cycle would not be able to carry out this duty. and would at least several days out of the month unable to perform her duties and even longer after she gives birth. I believe it to be about that simple.
ma salaam
nzingha
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
>Is it a "bug" in the
>Qu'ran when it implies women's
>memories are not as good
>as a mans?
>
actually the only "bug" here would be your understanding of the verse. If one takes the time to look through the Qur'an one would see that in ONLY this instance is two females specified all other times it is witnesses not specific to gender. And if you'd notice in this verse two male witnesses are called forth first.. shall we also conclude that the Qur'an thinks that it takes two mens brains to work properly and not one??
The two women are any two women.. not known or related to these people in this transaction.. as you'd notice in the verse all can be strangers in the deal. So if one women forgets than she can safely meet w/ the other women w/ relative ease no suspision on anyones part.. no fear on her part.. no sexual advancements from either side. It makes for a better situation for all invovlved it is not to be understood as a reflection of womens intellegence in the Qu'ran.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
>
>I think religion has been male
>dominated for too long (and
>I am a man). I
>believe that it is time
>for women to speak up
>in religious communities and share
>their intuitions and cirular reasonings
>for the benefit of all
>humanity! Maybe women have the
>insight to help us men
>stop killing one another!
>
>
On this we can agree..
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Netcurtains
24-02-2002, 16:16
Hi,
I could go on but you might think it an attack on your religion - but the truth is its an attack on nearly all religions - especially the Catholic Church (why does a TRINITARIAN organisation have ONE leader, it should be ONE chairman, ONE chief executive and ONE wise woman IMHO).
I think that the women have sadly lost their main goal in life. I am thinking now of the time of the prophet..... The women were covered and followed islamic belifs... yet that didn't restrict them. The women worked in the fields (farming - look at Asma'a), they were scholars in religious studies, litereture, etc (Aisha), they fought in the battles with the prophet (i forgot the name of this one lady) and they also nursed the wounded and raised the kids. In the past generations, we had women scholars all over the place... sadly only now this has diminitioned making women seem inferior to man.
I don't see why is it soo important for a woman to be a leader... She can lead in other ways!!
its only the west that actually make a big fuzz over women issues... most women don't have a problem (i mean muslim women).
Thought this would be interesting
Finding a Path to True Feminism
Pamela Taylor
[Taken from The Muslim Tribute Magazine (June 2001)]
Feminist. Some wear the name as a proud label. others hurl it as an insult. Where does Islam stand and does it have anything to offer the modern feminist movement? It is my belief that Islam is not only the ultimate expression of feminism, but that its percepts are indispensable to modern feminism if it hopes to succeed in truly "liberating" women.
Feminism, as we know it today, arose in response to the conditions and attitudes that were prevalent in North America after WWII. "Women lived their lives . . . according to that feminine mystique which defined woman only as husband's wife, children's mother, server of physical needs of husband, children, home and never as person defining herself by her own actions in society," writes Betty Friedan, author of The Feminine Mystique, the germinal work of the American Feminist movement.
The feminist critique of housewifery centred on the fact that goals for women's lives were limited to marriage and motherhood - if she achieved these, she had been successful and should feel ultimately fulfilled. In reality, however, the women who lived the life of "just a housewife" were filled with longing for more. Their needs did not end with marriage and motherhood. Rather they extended to pursuits in all arenas of life - education, career, political involvement, social improvement, religion, athletics, the arts, etc. Their feeling that their lives were insufficient was compounded by the general attitude that women were intellectually inferior, not interested in "serious pursuits," and somehow not a "true woman" if they were interested in a career or other activities that did not centre on the home. The feminist movement, then, was about expanding women's choices - giving them the opportunity to express and fulfill all sides of their personality, not just those connected with marriage and motherhood.
Muslims should find it easy to identify with this critique of western housewifery. The Qura'an, while recognizing the importance of marriage and parenthood, also makes it clear that women, just as men, have many purposes and needs in life. Beginning with the ultimate purpose - to worship Allah - the Qura'an makes no difference between men and women. They are absolutely equal in this regard, endowed with the same spirit and the same spiritual needs and responsibilities. Furthermore, it is this spiritual identity which is seen as the most important aspect of human nature. "The best of you is the one who has the greatest piety," The Qura'an tells us (49:13). Not the best husband or wife, the most dedicated parent, but rather the strongest in faith.
In the economic, political, intellectual and social arenas, the Qura'an and Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) also recognized the legitimacy of women's interest, participation and contribution. "To men portion of what they earn, and to women a portion of what they earn," the Qura'an commands (4: 7). Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was known to consult his wives about political matters, as did the Caliphs after him, and the oath of allegiance was taken from men and women without distinction. Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) repeatedly encouraged education for women, and that they be involved in the affairs of the society. It is clear, then, that in Islam women's identities are not limited to marriage and motherhood, but extend to all arenas in life.
So why do so many of us deign to call ourselves feminists? Because the Western feminist movement has been hijacked by a minority who are not interested in preserving women's choices, but in pushing a particular agenda. It is an agenda which denigrates the choice to focus on family, and which pits men and women as enemies, an agenda which at times seems to disparage anything that is remotely connected with what has traditionally been considered to be feminine qualities. Modern feminism, it often seems, seeks to reshape women in the form of men, denying their feminine side. Ironically, at the same time, it belittles men, seeing them as oppressors, violent, and uncontrollably competitive.
But, as Friedan says, "The down-with men, down-with-marriage, down-with-childbearing rhetoric and actions ... increasingly disturb ... most women in the movement, in addition to keeping many women out of the movement." This is not to mention how it makes most men feel! The man-hating rhetoric of the more extremist feminists and their denigration of motherhood have resulted in a backlash of perhaps even more extreme proportions. Books such as The Submissive Wife and Who Stole Feminism and the wild popularity of Dr. Laura point to the discomfort and disillusionment most women have with these trends in modern feminism. But in rejecting those who have gone to one extreme, many have turned to the other extreme - becoming hyper-critical of women who do not conform to the exact mould that feminism tried to break.
Again, we find that Muslims have much wisdom to offer. The Qura'an and Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) see women as multifaceted individual with a variety of needs and interests, and yet they do not reject the importance of marriage and motherhood. They present a balanced picture of women; a philosophical centring that rejects the extremes of both man-haters and traditionalist. It is this balanced view of what it means to be a women which both the modern feminist movement and those who have rejected their premises lack. And perhaps even more important is that Islam presents a balanced view of both marriage and motherhood.
Both the man-hating feminists and those who oppose them, view marriage as an unequal proposition, an arrangement in which the wife subsumes her identity into the man's and lives her life to serve him, her children and her house. But in Islam, marriage is a much more reasonable affair - the joining of two zawjs who deal with one another in mutual consultation and good will. When marrying, the woman maintains her own property, her own name, her own identity and her ties to her family. And once married, her dowry, and inheritance she might receive and on-going income is hers to dispose of as she chooses. Furthermore, her identity continues exactly as it did before marriage. She has now rights and obligations in relation to her husband, just as he does to her; but her fundamental nature and purpose in life remains unaltered. And while pleasing her husband and raising her children may be included in that, it certainly isn't the totality. It should be clear how such a balanced view of marriage, and of a woman's identity, would benefit both sides of the debate in the West.
The other contribution which Islam can make to Western feminism is in the arena of preserving the choice to remain home with children. In the current atmosphere, this choice is exceptionally difficult for many to make. Even when there is a conviction that this is best for the children, such a choice often results in feeling that the mother has wasted her talents and capabilities. This, again, results from an unbalanced view of motherhood - on in which the mother abandons all her own interests, indeed has no other interest than to serve every minute need of the child or children. As we have seen, Islam clearly rejects the notion that women have no purpose other than serving one's husband and one's children. This understanding is essential to tame the motherhood-rejecting faction of feminism, and to give balance to the mother-worshipping backlash. By acknowledging that women are not completely consumed with their children, and by insuring that they have the choice and opportunity, indeed the requirement, to pursue other interests, Islam alleviates the conditions that resulted in the need for Western feminism, and which fuel the current atmosphere of denigration or adulation of motherhood.
Beyond philosophical abstractions, Islam can offer practical solutions to American feminism as well. In today's society, many women feel that in order to preserve their choices, they must work. Friedan writes, "Equality and human dignity are not possible for women if they are not able to earn ... Only economic independence can free a woman to marry for love, not for status or financial support, or to leave a loveless, intolerable, humiliating marriage, or to eat, dress, rest and move if she plans not to marry." Islam insures that a woman has these same choices, whether she works or not. By giving her a dowry that she can fix and manages as she chooses, by requiring that she receives her share of inheritance, and by mandating that a father is always financially responsible for his children no matter what his wife earns, Islam ensures that economics is not the controlling factor of a woman's life.
So why, one wonders, aren't Western feminist stumbling over one another in their rush to adopt Islamic ideals? Because Muslim countries and individuals aren't either. Until we practice these ideals, until women in our countries and families have the respect and the choices that Islam gave them, we aren't likely to be able to help our sisters in the West.
In most Muslim areas, the state of women sadly mirrors the state of affairs the feminism arose to correct - both in terms of how women are perceived and in the options afforded them in life. Until we practice these ideals ourselves, until women in our countries and families have the respect and the choices that Islam gave them, we aren't likely to be able to help our sisters in the West.
** Pamela Taylor has a Masters of Theological Studies from Harvard University with a focus on Islamic Studies. She is a full time mother of 4 and a freelance journalist based in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA.
Nutcurtains....yes women might be on average smarter... this is why the prophet peace be upon him also consulted with women.. but we need this smartness to teach the kids not waste it to help ur colligeas only!!
And how does smartness work in a mosque anyways... in a mosque u pray..its one to one between u and Allah... so it won't work in there anyways....
lol..bug in the quraan....lol..
no its not. I do'nt care what you claim to be science .. you know very well...they prove something today and disprove it next day!!
Besides.... with family shores, birth, etc.... i think a woman would forget more!!
Just read another post here...hmm....
In Islam... everyone is equal.. including women and men... but just cause we are equal in rights and duties doesn't mean we have THE same rights and duties. We like you said are different!!
Because of that... our duties IN LIFE differ...but our duties towards Allah are the same. If our duties were like men, then who in the world would get the babies??!!
just one example!
so... u can't compare women and men on basis of duties... look for instance at a company... there are workers that do different jobs... they are all equal in benefits and pay etc... but they are doing different things!! (just cause christians love examples).
So similarly women and men are equal but have different things to do in life!
But when it comes to ur relationship with Allah... there it is equal... the prophet peace be upon him said that the best is the best of faith not the best of family heritage, money, inteligence .. etc.
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