The True Holy Trinity

[Netcurtains]

LAST EDITED ON 05-02-02 AT 02:36 PM (GMT)[p] A Question for doubters of the HOLY TRINITY.

The concept of the Holy Trinity (THREE IN ONE) was made the
"official" christian religion about 1,600 years ago. We knew
nothing about the FUNDAMENTAL RULES of NATURE at that point.
Today we do:

Atoms are made up of THREE particles: ELECTRONS, NEUTRONS and PROTONS.
THREE IN ONE is the foundation - "god" if you like of the whole
universe. There is more. Recently we have looked deeper and each
PROTON consists of just THREE QUARKS.

THREE does appear to be natures number. How did the Christian church know that 1,600 years ago???

Note most of the people who formulated "holy Trinity" were Arabs, Persians and Indians. Yes the WESTERN Church at Nicea was a MINORITY of those there.

[jcecil3]

LAST EDITED ON 05-02-02 AT 03:00 PM (GMT)[p]Greetings Netcurtains,

I would agree with you that the actual word "Trinity" was not used in the earliest stratas of Christian religion. However, I believe that if we could invent a time machine and sit with Peter and Paul to discuss theology at length, they would agree with Nicea and all the subsequent councils. The term "Trinity" is a word that codifies our belief of Jesus revealed himself to be through his words and deeds. In this sense, the doctrine did not suddenly arise 1,600 years ago. Rather, it is rooted in events that occurred 2,000 years ago in the person of Jesus Christ. The term "Trinity" is a word that codifies what the New Testament proclaims.

You are correct that the majority of those who codified this belief (whether in the New Testament, or in later tradition such as Nicea) were mostly Middle Eastern people.

Peace and Blessings!

jcecil3

[Netcurtains]

Hi,
It is also true that western knockers of the Holy Trinity (mainly Jehovahs Witnesses) dislike it because it appears to them to originate from Arabs, Persians, Africans and Indians. In a sense the anti-Trinitarians are being slightly racist. They think that white middle class victorian bible readers will have a fundamentally better understanding then the original asian and african people who brought christianity to britian.

Its a great pleasure to see as scientists explore the universe that the "wise men" from the east were totally right.

However - I have some disagreement with you concerning my
"herod" V "god" thread. I will get back to you. But for further reading I suggest you read the book of JOB. In it friends went on discussing the nature of god on and on and on until they just run out of puff. At the end of the story (even though Job got some gifts) nothing was really resolved. I will write some more later.

Netty!

[Netcurtains]

LAST EDITED ON 06-02-02 AT 10:03 AM (GMT)[p]a bit more science:

I said "Recently we have looked deeper and each
PROTON consists of just THREE QUARKS".

FUNDAMENTALLY ALL PARTICLES ARE MADE FROM QUARKS.
THESE ARE THE FUNDAMENTAL PARTICLES OF THE UNIVERSE.

THERE ARE THREE QUARKS IN EVERY PROTON AND NEUTRON.
No more - no less.
TRINITY.

There are just THREE FUNDAMENTAL PARTICLES
IN EVERYTHING. If GOD is THE UNIVERSE then HE IS
DE FACTO A TRINITARIAN - THIS IS FUNDAMENTALLY SELF EVIDENT
(from the evidence so far).

There are THREE different particles to an atom (proton, electron and neutron).
There are THREE identical particles to a proton and a neutron(quarks).

Lets look at the "Mohammed" (the greatest religious personality) of the scientific
world - Einstein. He spent most of his life trying to find the ONE personality of
the scientific "god" - the unified field theory. However, at the end of the day he failed.
As well as there being just THREE particles there are THREE forces: Gravity, Weak
Electromagnetic, and nuclear.

Delving deeper Electrons. Electrons are the small particle (as Jesus is the "small"
aspect of god) that orbits the atomic nucleus. Electrons have 12 Laptons (like
12 apostles ).

Why is the universe itself trinitarian?

This site has nice moving diagrams of atoms:

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/3-atoms.htm

The simplist Atom - Hydrogen (the big BANG element) consists of just ONE Proton (which is THREE identical Quarks) and ONE Electron (which is TWELVE Laptons). The Twelve apostles circulate around the three in one God.

Please feel free to enter into any inter faith dialogue. I am
an individual from Southern England and represent no one apart from myself.

[Asif]

Hello Netcurtains and Jcecil3 !

This is a warning to both of you. You both are constantly breaking the rules of this site. You must end this immediately. This is not a place to discuss Christianity. If you wish to do that, go somewhere else please.

I do not know how many times we have to tell you to stop before you actually do so.

Thank you,
Asif.

[Netcurtains]

Apologise.
I thought this was the BB to compare?
To what is the Islamic faith meant to be compared to?
The Islamic faith says that you should read the Torah and the Gospel? The Islamic faith includes references to trinity? I don't see your point?

[jcecil3]

Greetings Asif,

I have been away from the IWC for over almost a month. I came yesterday for about ten minutes and wrote two quick responses to Netcurtains not even being aware that s/he was a fellow Christian. Netcurtains wrote some questions that I presumed were coming from a Muslim.

I fail to see how my responses to Netcurtains are more preachy than other posts I had made between Sept 11 and Dec 23. Indeed, I think they were less preachy. And if I mistook Netcurtains for a Muslims at first, how can s/he be preachy?

Please explain what you found offensive so that I will know what I am not supposed to be doing.

Peace and Blessings!

jcecil3

[Netcurtains]

LAST EDITED ON 08-02-02 AT 05:52 PM (GMT)[p]Some more wonders.

Why do we live in a THREE dimentional world?
What about Heaven, Hell and Earth are they not THREE
universes.

I know that time might be considered a fourth and of course St Paul looked at Christ as if He was four dimentional:

St Paul in chapter THREE (Trinty again? )Ephesians: 7 verses from v14-v21:

"that ye being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us. Unto him be glory in the Church of Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end"

Spooky Three Dimensions but phrased as if four.

An interesting point for Islamics - St Paul was on his KNEES
when he said this prayer "For this reason I BOW MY KNEES to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...." (ch 3.v14-v21)


Some more THREES:
1) THREE states of matter: Solid, Liquid and Gas.
2) THREE types of heat: Conduction, Convection and Radiation.
3) THREE dimensions: Length, Breadth and Height.

[Lulua]

LAST EDITED ON 10-02-02 AT 05:47 AM (GMT)[p]Hi, netcurtains, and jcecil.

Welcome back, jcecil. Haven't seen you around for a while. How u doing?

Can't exactly tell you what's going on in Asif's mind to request you stop this discussion. But, in following some of the other threads, perhaps his argument against this discussion is that it is only mainly concentrating on 'trinitarian' theories, without comparing it to Islam. Well, perhaps I will enter in here and include in this something about Islam in perspective to all this rhetoric.

Firstly, I am sure that all of you are quite aware that the Quran is THE BOOK for Islam, it is the Book of Guidance, as we are told even in some of the beginning verses in it:

'Alif, laam, meem. This is the Book, sure, whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are 'al-muttaqun' (pious and righteous persons who fear Allah much and love Allah much)' s. 2, v. 1-2.

Within this very Quran, we find many references refuting the connotation of the trinity. Shall I quote for you? Or have you read? Perhaps I shall quote those verses in another post, inshaAllah. BTW, netcurtains and jcecil...do you perchance have access to reference the Quran? If you do not, then I suggest sincerely that you go about attaining some reference, if at least only online. There are many, in fact, available.

Also, netcurtains, you have made reference in some of your posts on this thread of equalling God with the universe itself, or with nature itself, or with atoms and such things which are mere parts of the creation. God is, in fact, the Creator...and not a part of the creation...regardless how large or perhaps how mystic that part of creation may be. God is a separate entity entirely.

Again, I strongly suggest that you begin to read from the Quran. This will give you much better direction, as well as understanding of Islam.

One more point: I can remember netcurtains sometimes complaining by way of asking some of us muslims to reveal our 'conversion stories', imploring with us that if we wished to convert any of you, then that is the way. Firstly, let me reassure you that the conversion of anyone is the concern of that individual alone. It is not my desire, nor is it the basic desire I believe, of any of the other muslims at this site to convert any of you to Islam. If you so desire, then fine...and if you do not, then that is fine also. We do not have any sort of a quota system by which we are seeking conversions of non-muslims to Islam.

Secondly, I would also like to point out that the above verse that I quoted here, s. 2, v. 1-2...has been related by many converts as their 'deciding factor' in their own personal conversion. It was not for me, for my reasons, or deciding factor on converting to Islam is different. However, I have heard and read many conversion stories which ppl were so impressed by those few simple words, that they automatically accepted Islam from that, beginning life as a practicing believeing muslim.

Lulua.

[Netcurtains]

LAST EDITED ON 10-02-02 AT 07:03 PM (GMT)[p]Hi,
Why I like to here peoples personal stories.
Its simple really.
We can all quote to doomsday from old books. Another mans bible quotes 9 times out 10 means nothing to someone else.
What everyone seems to have in common is a spiritual story. How they personally found God.

Muslims say Mohammed was the final prophet. Is there something Christianity can learn from Islam?

I beleive there was something important christianity did learn from Mohammed. Our scriptures do appear to have a gap, a problem. Our problem is this: "How do we behave when Christians are the MAJORITY population" The Bible was written when we were a persecuted minority. The Crusades started by killing all muslims. By the end, the Crusaders (learning from Islam) used to
escort Muslim pilgrims to their holy sites.

By the same token, I think Islam can learn a thing or two from the Bible, on what its like to be the minority. I think, IMHO the thing a muslim might concider (no offence meant) is "Love those who persecute you - offer them the other cheek if need be".

For example when Palastine was part of the British Empire Islam seemed quite laid back about this. When it became Jewish everyone went ballistic. It makes no rational sense. Is there something Islam has forgotten?

I do not have a Koran or Qu'ran - Sorry about that.

[Netcurtains]

LAST EDITED ON 21-02-02 AT 03:27 PM (GMT)[p]Please do not enter into a scientific discussion with me about this as I am no longer allowed to write here and thus I cannot argue back.

If you want to discuss it privately email me at steamship@zoom.co.uk

The errors in my concept have been fully exposed by athiests already. This also goes for the "light From light" (Nicene Creed) aspect - (my theory that the THREE Primary colours make up all other colours and thus evidence of Trinty - again false).

There are not 12 leptons in an electron - lol - an electron is a lepton. There are 12 leptons in total - 6 positive, 3 negative and 3 neutral.

Netty

But when I get up I start the day with a boiled egg - How many parts does an EGG have?

its all meaningless - I agree science proves nothing.

I have nothing against any religion - but I want kids to be bought up the BEST - KIDS ARE EVERYTHING. THIS IS MY RELIGION.
Its been proved that kids that have a FATHER and a MOTHER do better - divorced parents (as good as they are) are not normally as good as married parents. A dad who has many wifes is in a sense divorced - his children only have part of a dad - IMHO. ONE DAD and ONE MUM and THE KIDS... That is my religion (the family is TRINITY)

[Netcurtains]

LAST EDITED ON 22-02-02 AT 08:36 AM (GMT)[p]Before I go.
My wife is doing an Upholstery course.
This site says "Paisley" is satanic.
Make sure you have your volume up high when
you visit it (it will make you laugh - it certainly
made me laugh - its the In-laws town).

http://www.demonbuster.com/paisley.html

What are your comparative views - can patterns be
satanic? Is the Paisley Pattern Evil? I think a lot
of Catholics will see Rev. Ian Paisley in a new light (lol).

if you like science - this is mind blowin:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/paralleluni.shtml

[jcecil3]

Servant of Allah,

I know you do not believ in the Trinity, while I do, but thank you for not misrepresenting the Trinitarian belief above!!!!!

You are correct that Christians do not say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are parts of God, or each less than God, or independently existant by himself.

You are also absolutely correct in seeing the weakness of Netcurtains analogy of the Trinity in atomic theory. I almost wrote the same critique as a Christian. If we took Netcurtains too literally in his anaology, we would not understand the Trinity as Christians mean the term. However, bear in mind, it is only an anology, and I do not believe he meant over-literalizing it.

This is the first time I have seen a Muslim on this site accurately sum up some of what we really say without necessarily affirming our doctrine! Thank you!

Being able to understand another point of view without agreeing with it is difficult, and I commend you for making the effort. I anxiously await your elaboration, and hope you will keep it as accurate as you attempted above (don't misquote us).

Peace and Blessing!
jcecil3

[Netcurtains]

Yes please do carry on as I appear to have been given a second chance.

My theory has already been "proved" incorrect by athiests but I would be interested in an islamic take on the Quark bit.

Science has moved on and the latest thing appears to be the ELEVETH DIMENSION. I will post some religious aspects to this - perhaps you would like to as well. This concept is quite intersting. Please read the above BBC link for the details.

[Sadiq]

Greetings to all!!

I have come to the conclusion that this thread is VOILATING!! the rules of IWC, and i will kindly lock the thread to ensure a safe section on the compartive forum for all members. As brother asif said...

I Qoute;

".......This is a warning to both of you. You both are constantly breaking the rules of this site. You must end this immediately. This is not a place to discuss Christianity. If you wish to do that, go somewhere else please.

I do not know how many times we have to tell you to stop before you actually do so....""

LOCKED!!!


Sadiq!
-------------------------------
"Oh Allah, enrich me with knowledge, adorn me with gentleness, honour me with piety and beautify me with health", Aameen