View Full Version : A message for People of the Book
Om_Mohammed
27-05-2001, 13:07
The word ‘islam’ in today’s world many times connotates terrorism. This is mostly due to the reputation and interpretation given to islam by the western and non-muslim media. ‘Islam’ actually means peace, and is the religion of peace and tolerance. According to history, it is the one religion under which rule, people of other religions have been able to safely and successfully worship in their own ways. Such tolerance has not been present under the rule of Christians or Jews.
That set aside, ‘islam’ also means submission. It is the religion, or way of life in which it’s adherents (muslims) submit to the will of God. In submitting to the will of God, they do and must abide by all of God’s commandments and laws. In rejecting or omitting any of them, the person is in fact encruing upon himself the wrath and anger of God.
As muslims, we accept all of the prophets, up to and including Mohammed. In accepting them, we are realizing their prophethood, as well as accepting their message. We do not reject the message of any one of them.
The question has arised of the Bible. Today’s bible…what is remaining of it, including the scriptures of those before it…has been changed throughout the history of man. That is an undisputable fact. It is something that even the elders and the deacons of those religions are the first to admit. There is constant change after change being made to those scriptures. If it is truly God’s word…then why the need to change so frequently…or even one time for that matter? The word of God should be unchangeable…and unrevisable, unquestionably the word of God. Who has given any person on this earth…regardless of his/her place in time…the authority to tamper with God’s word?
There are many discrepancies in the bible. Even if there was only one…it raises the question of the dependability of the rest of the content of the bible.
If the scriptures were all complete at one time, long ago…then why the necessity of the continuation of the revealing of scriptures throughout the history of man? Why was Moses sent after those whom he came after…i.e. Abraham, Noah, etc.? Why was Jesus sent after those whom he came after…i.e. John, Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc.? Was not their messages enough for mankind? Apparently no. Even at the time of Jesus…it was predicted and told that yet another one would be coming…a comforter to remain for all of time.
This is not a situation of ‘I am right and you are wrong’…for no one has that right nor knowledge. However, it is a situation of logic of timing and the revelation of messages in sequence one to another. Islam has not ‘wiped out’ the previous religions…it is merely an expansion and betterment and completion of that which preceeded it. Please all…return to the original messages of all the prophets of all time. What is the underlying similarity in all? It is that there is only ONE God…no partners, no other deities, no other divinities, no false gods. Only One God…One Creator. Glory be to Him!!! All Praises are due to Him!!!
In the opening verses of Surat-Al-Baqarah (the Cow) in the Quran…it is describing those who believe, as well as giving a description and idea as to what this Book is:
‘A.L.M. This is the Book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah; Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what we have provided for them; and who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.’ S.2, v.1-4.
You will note…that this is a description of the Quran as being a ‘guidance sure’…and for whom? For those who know and fear Allah…those who believe in the revelation sent to Mohammed (‘thee’) as well as what was sent to the messengers before Mohammed.
There has been some question…as to why or how is it possible that it was necessary for any improvement upon the bible…improvement or intercession on Christianity. Much as Christianity was an improvement and completion upon Judaism, such is it that Islam is an improvement and completion upon Christianity. First of all…Jesus was sent as a messenger to Israel:
In s. 3, v.45-47 is the topic of the blessing and announcement to Mary that she will bear a son… and just how that will come about. The next verses are telling some qualities and description of her son, Jesus:
‘and Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel,
And appoint him a messenger to the Children of Israel,’ s.3, v.48-49.
Muhammed, on the other hand, was sent to all of mankind:
‘We have not sent thee but as a (messenger) to all mankind, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men know not.’ S.34, v.28.
Jesus states, even…of his message and purpose of improving on the previous religion of Judaism:
‘(I have come to you), to attest the Torah which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.’ S.3, v.50.
‘It is Allah who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.’ S.3, v.51.
There has been much argument of the trinity. However, Jesus himself, as it is recorded even in the bible…was known to have eaten, drink, sleep, wash and pray…doing things that no deity is in need of. God is not in need of nourishment…nor is He in need of prayer. It is we, weak humans, who are in need of guidance, and mercy, and prayer. It is we, who are in need of His help in all things and all matters.
Jesus himself called people to the true form of worship, asking them…no, telling them…to worship God as one God…not to worship him, or to associate him in any way as a partner to God. To do so creates much of God’s anger and wrath to befall upon them. Those who truly follow the directives of Jesus are on the right path:
‘Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection; then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.’ S.3, v.55
Please note that in this preceding verse, it is referring to those who follow Jesus…not in particular ‘christians’…for Christianity as we know it today is something that Paul taught and wrote…not necessarily the message and warning and guidance that Jesus himself preached and lived. There is a big difference in the two.
Faith is a big factor in religion, in fact…it is the basic and underlying factor. One can have much knowledge, yet without faith, there is nothing.
‘As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with severe chastisement in this world and in the Hereafter. Nor will they have anyone to help. As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong.’ S.3, v.56-57.
We are all here, according to His (Allah’s) design and command. Each and every birth…even the trees and the grass are a total miracle. The miracle of life…which not even the best scientists of the world of any time are capable of copying. Oh yes…nowadays they are able to clone creatures…and even perhaps humans. But cloning is something different from creating total new beings…each different in it’s design and make-up to the point that even the finger prints and make up of the finger nails and the eyeprints are different in each and every individuals, including twins. Jesus’ creation or being is no greater of a miracle than that of Adam or his partner, Eve.
‘The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, ‘Be’: and he was. The truth (comes) from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt.’ S. 3, v.59-60.
An important message to all Christians and Jews:
‘O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.’ If then they turn back, say ye: ‘Bear witness that we (at least) are muslims (bowing to Allah’s will).’
Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye no understanding?
Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (even ) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! But why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!
Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was Upright, and bowed his will to Allah’s, (which is Islam). And he joined not gods with Allah.
Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: and Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.
It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!
Ye People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, of which ye are (yourselves) witnesses?
Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe truthe in falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge?’ s.3, v.64-71.
And:
‘A section of the People of the Book say: ‘Believe in the morning what is revealed to the Believers, but reject it at the end of the day: perchance they may (themselves) turn back;
And believe no one unless he follows your religion.’ Say: ‘True guidance is the guidance of Allah; (fear ye) lest a revelation be sent to someone (else) like unto that which was sent unto you? Or that those (receiving such revelation) should engage you in argument before your Lord? Say: ‘All bounties are in the hand of Allah: He granteth them to whom He pleaseth: and Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things.’ S.3, v.72-73.
It is not possible that Jesus elevated himself to divinity along with his Lord:
‘It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the Prophetic Office, should say to people: ‘Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s’: On the contrary (he would say): ‘Be ye worshippers of Him (Who is truly the Cherisher of all) for ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.’
Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and Patrons,. What! Would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (to Allah in Islam)?’ s.3, v.79-80
A major point of the Quran:
‘If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah) never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost.’ W.3, v.85.
‘They disbelieved indeed those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: ‘Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all-everyone that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.’ S.5, v.17.
‘(both) the Jews and the Christians say: ‘We are sons of Allah, and His beloved.’ Say: ‘Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,-of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him I the final goal (of all).’ S.5, v.18.
‘O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our messengers, lest ye should say: ‘There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner’ : But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And Allah hath power over all things.’ S.5, v.19.
May Allah help and guide those who are seeking guidance, and direct those who are wavering in their way.
Om Mohammed
Assalamu-alaikum:
Perhaps you may like to know how the Portuguese Language Contemporany Language Dictionary published by Lisbon Science Academy shows the prejudice against Muslims (original in Portuguese below the tanslation that follows):
"Vicious. Deprec. Person that doesn't have religion or he/she has religion different from the Christian; it is said particularly, of that professin Islam"
The Crusade spirit prevails. The Portguese are known to be more tolerant than other Europeans. Some thick minds continue with their evil apirit looking at Islam and other religions I would return the word to them in a vicious manner.
Original in Portuguese:
"Vicioso,a. Deprec. Que não tem religião ou tem religião diferente da cristã: diz-se, particularmente, daquele que professa o islamismo"
Wa-salaam,
Mobin
Your statement: The word ‘islam’ in today’s world many times connotates terrorism. This is mostly due to the reputation and interpretation given to islam by the western and non-muslim media. ‘Islam’ actually means peace, and is the religion of peace and tolerance. According to history, it is the one religion under which rule, people of other religions have been able to safely and successfully worship in their own ways. Such tolerance has not been present under the rule of Christians or Jews.
--> Are you ready to swear that all Muslims have been given a bad name in terms of the terrorism they represent??? There have been numerous groups all claiming to work for the glory of Islam yet resorting to violence to achieve their aims and these groups still exists today, in fact many new groups are mushrooming around the world. Recent activities in the Philippines by the Abu Sayyaf brings sorrow, not only to me but to the people involved. I realise that not all Muslims are like that but I feel it is the responsibilties of the Muslim community to educate their people in what you term as Islam is a religion of peace. When you accuse Christians being intolerant to other people of different faith, Muslims will be quick to refer to historical events such as the Crusades and other acts committed by so-called "Christians" to fortify your arguments against Christianity. Is this fair?? Are you going to include this arguments to justify the ongoing violence carried out by Islamic groups?? Even the spreading of Islam, it is done in a rather forceful but gradual manner, however, currently I cannot validate my statement yet. I am however observing a Islamic political party in my country with interest and should any interesting events occur, I will post it here in maybe a few years time.
As for the rest of what you have written. In regarding the Bible, that is the classical belief of Muslims. I feel that it is something that will stick on until the end of times. In regarding the Quran about Christianity, well, that is your faith. I don't have any comments
Om_Mohammed
30-05-2001, 00:03
Well, it seems that it is you, now, Firefly, who is falling into the the trap of categorization. Because of the sad and wrong presentation and interpretation of a few (and, believe it or not, those terrorists who are claiming islam are a minority in the community of muslims)...you are seeming to assume that Islam is not truly the religion of peace.
Please re-read this post of mine, as well as some of the earlier ones, if you are in argument with anything which I will be saying now, to know for yourself that what I say is merely a re-iteration of what I have been saying all along.
Muslims are people, humans, and quite capable of mistakes, much as are anyone else in the world. There are many muslims who know very little of the religion of Islam. In fact, the two terms...islam or muslim and terrorism are two opposites, an 'oxymoron', if you will. They simply just to not fit together.
However, to know the real islam...you should not look to 'muslims'...for so many either do not know their religion well enough to implement it, or they are too arrogant and caught up in the worldly pleasures, ignoring the repercussions of what they do, rather than to represent islam as it should be represented. There are many muslims who are doing a good job of implementing it, or at least trying, yet there are still many others who are not doing so at all, giving terrible misrepresentations of it.
However, my reference to the western media in misrepresentation of islam as to being terrorism, is because of what is occurying today and in recent history of the world in relation to muslim peoples being oppressed, such as what has happened recently in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, and even now in Palestine. Because those who are being fought for their own land, their own homes, their own lives...people who are defending themselves for a simple existence in their own lands, defending their homes from bulldozers and settlers and invaders of every kind...are being therefore named as terrorists!!
A question for you, firefly, or anyone else for that matter:
If your family's home was being bulldozed at night in your sleep, if your wife or your daughter or both were taken out when you were sleeping, only to be tied and raped, only for you to see left remaining in the morning in their positions...if your baby girl or boy was shot in a raid upon your refuge camp of a town, only to leave his guts literally flowing out on the floor...what would you do? Would you not take the nearest weapon available to you and retaliate? Out of defense, out of anger? Imagine yourself in the position of those being oppressed, and perhaps you would realize that they are not terrorists, but they are defending their homes, their lives, their loved-ones, their own dignity.
Before you go laying claim upon the muslims for their wrong behaviour, and categorize them, and make claim that this or that is their typical response, beware yourself of falling into that trap in doing so.
Again, if you will refer back to my original post...you will notice that I stated that Islam is the religion of peace...I said nothing about muslims themselves. I will be the first to admit that so many muslims today are not the true eminence of Islam.
However, if you wish to know what Islam truly is, then you should go to the source, and that is the Quran...not muslims themselves. I have stated this time and time again...that whoever wishes to learn anything about Islam...you should do so by studying the source.
Om Mohammed.
Your statement: Well, it seems that it is you, now, Firefly, who is falling into the the trap of categorization. Because of the sad and wrong presentation and interpretation of a few (and, believe it or not, those terrorists who are claiming islam are a minority in the community of muslims)...you are seeming to assume that Islam is not truly the religion of peace.
Please re-read this post of mine, as well as some of the earlier ones, if you are in argument with anything which I will be saying now, to know for yourself that what I say is merely a re-iteration of what I have been saying all along.
--> Om Mohammed, first of all, I did not say that Islam is a religion of war. All I said was that the Muslim community should educate these Islamic groups in the what you term as the real Islam. I further said that I realised that not all Muslims are like them.
Your statement: Muslims are people, humans, and quite capable of mistakes, much as are anyone else in the world. There are many muslims who know very little of the religion of Islam. In fact, the two terms...islam or muslim and terrorism are two opposites, an 'oxymoron', if you will. They simply just to not fit together.
--> Then, I should say that live as you believe what your faith preaches. Yes, I agree with you. Many Muslims know very little of Islam. That is why I suggested that the Muslim community do something about it...that's all! Perhaps you should look into these current issues relating to act of terrorisms committed by some of the Islamic groups, then you will have a better understanding of what I am trying to say.
However, my reference to the western media in misrepresentation of islam as to being terrorism, is because of what is occurying today and in recent history of the world in relation to muslim peoples being oppressed, such as what has happened recently in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, and even now in Palestine. Because those who are being fought for their own land, their own homes, their own lives...people who are defending themselves for a simple existence in their own lands, defending their homes from bulldozers and settlers and invaders of every kind...are being therefore named as terrorists!!
--> Why do you think the western media are doing what you said above???
A question for you, firefly, or anyone else for that matter:
If your family's home was being bulldozed at night in your sleep, if your wife or your daughter or both were taken out when you were sleeping, only to be tied and raped, only for you to see left remaining in the morning in their positions...if your baby girl or boy was shot in a raid upon your refuge camp of a town, only to leave his guts literally flowing out on the floor...what would you do? Would you not take the nearest weapon available to you and retaliate? Out of defense, out of anger? Imagine yourself in the position of those being oppressed, and perhaps you would realize that they are not terrorists, but they are defending their homes, their lives, their loved-ones, their own dignity.
--> Well, I will feel very angry. At that instant of happening, I guess my rage will overcome my rationale and I will go into a fit. To what extend of damage I might do, I wouldn't know. However, I will do my very best to protect my family from any danger BUT I will never take my anger upon those not involved. Let's say, a Islamic group of 5 people does what you have described above to my family. My anger will be only towards that 5 people, I will not go around shooting any Muslim I see. As to whether will I kill those 5 guys(let's say a gun was lying by), I have to say I am not sure. If I did kill them, what difference will that make me from them?
>--> Are you ready to swear that all Muslims have been given a bad name in terms of the terrorism they represent??? There have been numerous groups all claiming to work for the glory of Islam yet resorting to violence to achieve their aims and these groups still exists today, >>>
And will continue to exist. unlike others i'm not about to dismiss these muslims on the basis of their actions, they are still muslims. I'm not about to promote Islam as a totally peaceful religion either. We are told as muslims to fight.. we are given explicit verses on how to fight our enemies.. we may fight to achieve the peace of an islamic state.. or the safety of our homes.. or against a government that is oppressive.. but we will and do and have.. use violent means to achieve our goals just like any other state system. And just like all other peoples of varrying religions.
>>>When you accuse Christians being intolerant to other people of different faith, Muslims will be quick to refer to historical events such as the Crusades and other acts committed by so-called "Christians" to fortify your arguments against Christianity. Is this fair?? Are you going to include this arguments to justify the ongoing violence carried out by Islamic groups??>>>
The difference here is that you label them so called christians.. in order for you to deal with the crusades (and oh i can give you a list of what christians have done to muslims.. but what is the point) you dismiss them as not being christians and totally ignore what they have done in the name of their religion.. your religion.. No one can deny that Muslims have attacked peoples of different faiths.. difference is we don't dismiss them as being muslims..we may say that such and such act is wrong.. but we don't just write them off in order to AVOID any blame for muslims. I can give you a slew of things that muslims have done in the name of islam against peoples of other religions.. but i won't dismiss them as muslims.. i won't necessarily condone their acts.. but i won't avoid the issue like christians do with the crusades.. or bosnia.. or with the lebanese who butchered Palestinian refugees.. men women and children.. ect ect ect ect ect and please don't dismiss them as being "so called christians" it is a cop out
commenting on your other post..
I hardly think you as a christian who knows very little about islam can claim a position of what the majority of muslims know about islam. So why don't you leave that position to those who deserve the right.
And you ask why the western media portrays muslims and arabs total terroists wanting nothing more than to destroy the american way?? are you that unaware of the jewish run media in the US? are you that unaware of the jewish lobby in the government?? are you that unaware of the control that they have in the US? the media is in need to present such a view of arabs and muslims (and arabs they don't distinguish with christians either) is to justify the acts of the jews occupation of palestine.. of their unneeded force..and their all out brutality. This also justifies their sanctions on how many muslim/arab countries?? the starving and outright ethnic cleansing of Iraqis.. denying basic medical care under sanctions.. the outright starvation of children.. such a view is needed in order to make it ok with the american public. They need bin ladden as a terroist in order to justify their aggresion towards him.. but that doesn't explain how he was OKY DOKEY in order to fight the russians with.. this keeps saudi in their pockets.. for downright highway robbery of their oil. all these images of arabs being the utmost of terroists is NEEDED in order to JUSTIFY the us actions.. and in order to make Isreal look like the wounded soul it likes to portray as it bombs Palestinians as they play soccer. oh yes.. kicking the soccer ball is a big threat to israli security.. i forgot. The image is needed in order to rob palestinians of their water supply.. in order for them to occupy their land.. and to deny the right of return. Such images are needed in the us in order for the us to become exactly what it wants.. the super power of the world.. they only one with the ability to blow up the whole world..
Nzingha
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
And will continue to exist. unlike others i'm not about to dismiss these muslims on the basis of their actions, they are still muslims. I'm not about to promote Islam as a totally peaceful religion either. We are told as muslims to fight.. we are given explicit verses on how to fight our enemies.. we may fight to achieve the peace of an islamic state.. or the safety of our homes.. or against a government that is oppressive.. but we will and do and have.. use violent means to achieve our goals just like any other state system. And just like all other peoples of varrying religions.
--> Violence is something which I disagree with as a method to solve any disputes whether it is justified or not. The kind of Islam you are talking about is that killing is OK as long as the reason for it is concordance to Islam. However, have you ever ponder upon whether the actual situation is that of what you think??? For example, you are told by higher authorities in Islam about an "enemy", thus you fight believing that of the authorities, how would you know whether is that the actual situation?? God gave us Free will, our actions are therefore accountable on Judgement Day(however not essential to gain salvation), or there might be a misunderstandings, to which you call up arms in believing that you are fighting for God! This is where the problem comes in. Who makes the decision to proclaim Jihad??
The difference here is that you label them so called christians.. in order for you to deal with the crusades (and oh i can give you a list of what christians have done to muslims.. but what is the point) you dismiss them as not being christians and totally ignore what they have done in the name of their religion.. your religion.. No one can deny that Muslims have attacked peoples of different faiths.. difference is we don't dismiss them as being muslims..we may say that such and such act is wrong.. but we don't just write them off in order to AVOID any blame for muslims. I can give you a slew of things that muslims have done in the name of islam against peoples of other religions.. but i won't dismiss them as muslims.. i won't necessarily condone their acts.. but i won't avoid the issue like christians do with the crusades.. or bosnia.. or with the lebanese who butchered Palestinian refugees.. men women and children.. ect ect ect ect ect and please don't dismiss them as being "so called christians" it is a cop out
--> I think you know very little about Christianity, my friend. As Christians, we taught to love. Yes, even our enemies(human beings). The only real enemy here is Satan. That is who we have to fight. Satan is well aware of our weaknesses thus utilizing them. He is the one causes conflicts among us, tempting us with worldly things and to draw us away from our Creator. When I called them "so-called" Christians, is because they do not follow the doctrine of Christ!
commenting on your other post..
I hardly think you as a christian who knows very little about islam can claim a position of what the majority of muslims know about islam. So why don't you leave that position to those who deserve the right.
--> I speak up because of what I see happening in the world today. What I am trying to do here is to plead to the Muslim community to do something about it.
And you ask why the western media portrays muslims and arabs total terroists wanting nothing more than to destroy the american way?? are you that unaware of the jewish run media in the US? are you that unaware of the jewish lobby in the government?? are you that unaware of the control that they have in the US? the media is in need to present such a view of arabs and muslims (and arabs they don't distinguish with christians either) is to justify the acts of the jews occupation of palestine.. of their unneeded force..and their all out brutality. This also justifies their sanctions on how many muslim/arab countries?? the starving and outright ethnic cleansing of Iraqis.. denying basic medical care under sanctions.. the outright starvation of children.. such a view is needed in order to make it ok with the american public. They need bin ladden as a terroist in order to justify their aggresion towards him.. but that doesn't explain how he was OKY DOKEY in order to fight the russians with.. this keeps saudi in their pockets.. for downright highway robbery of their oil. all these images of arabs being the utmost of terroists is NEEDED in order to JUSTIFY the us actions.. and in order to make Isreal look like the wounded soul it likes to portray as it bombs Palestinians as they play soccer. oh yes.. kicking the soccer ball is a big threat to israli security.. i forgot. The image is needed in order to rob palestinians of their water supply.. in order for them to occupy their land.. and to deny the right of return. Such images are needed in the us in order for the us to become exactly what it wants.. the super power of the world.. they only one with the ability to blow up the whole world..
--> I would need to check out your claim about "jewish community controlling the entire media in US" theory first. About the Palestinians/Israel issue, I am neutral about it. I do condemn the violence committed whether it is the Israelites or the Palestinians. However, there are a few things I would like to know:
1) May I know the Muslim side of this conflict? As in what started it, how did it erupted into full-scale violence...
2) Relating to question 1, how did you get the information?
Thanks.
Firefly.
>--> Violence is something which I disagree with as a method to solve any disputes whether it is justified or not. The kind of Islam you are talking about is that killing is OK as long as the reason for it is concordance to Islam.>>
Than you need to evaluate your own faith Firefly.. the OT is not free from the order to fight in the way of God. it is necessary to fight those who are in opposition to you. And Jesus pbuh even according to the biblical view is not as LOVE ALL and non violent as you would have us think.
<< However, have you ever ponder upon whether the actual situation is that of what you think??? For example, you are told by higher authorities in Islam about an "enemy", thus you fight believing that of the authorities, how would you know whether is that the actual situation?? Who makes the decision to proclaim Jihad?? >>
First don't assume that the masses of Muslims are so ignorant.. there are rules of engagement which we must abide by in order to correctly serve Allah, even in Jihad. As for you proclaims Jihad it would depend on the situation.. There is no one total human authority in our political system.. even the Khalif is to take shura among other muslims..
>--> I think you know very little about Christianity, my friend.>>
I knew enough to leave it.
>> As Christians, we taught to love. Yes, even our enemies(human beings). The only real enemy here is Satan. That is who we have to fight. Satan is well aware of our weaknesses thus utilizing them. He is the one causes conflicts among us, tempting us with worldly things and to draw us away from our Creator. When I called them "so-called" Christians, is because they do not follow the doctrine of Christ! >>
according to you.. because you personally appose violence as a means to achieve anything. This is YOUR personal opinion and I would say you fail in the ability to discount MILLIONS of chirstians throughout history who don't agree with your view.
>--> I speak up because of what I see happening in the world today. What I am trying to do here is to plead to the Muslim community to do something about it.
>
To do what? should we give in to oppressors? should we allow our nations to be bullied by the US? Should we willingly give up our lands and become refugess in lands that do not want us? What exactly are you pleading with us to do?
And what exactly do you really "see" firefly?
>--> I would need to check out your claim about "jewish community controlling the entire media in US" theory first. >>
by all means research firefly it is not that hard to figure it out. I would suggest read a few issues of the Washington report on the middle east affairs.. you'll see how the jewish influence is on the US.
<<About the Palestinians/Israel issue, I am neutral about it.>>
how can you be neutral about such a situation and yet come here in order to and i qoute
"I speak up because of what I see happening in the world today. What I am trying to do here is to plead to the Muslim community to do something about it. "
If you truly want us to do something about what is happening in the world today how can you remain nuterul over such large issues?
>1) May I know the Muslim
>side of this conflict? As
>in what started it, how
>did it erupted into full-scale
>violence...
Your need to ask tells me you don't see much in the world firefly.
>2) Relating to question 1, how
>did you get the information?
>
If your looking for the muslim view firefly ask some palestinian muslims
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Assallamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah !
Just a short message in reply to one of Firefly's statements. I believe she and many others on the site have made the statement "you know little about Christianity" many times.
I wish to inform these people that this site alone has plenty of reverts from Christianity to Islam. And so they do know about Christianity.
But, that's not what i can say about most of the Christians on this site who really have no idea about Islam and have been refuted more than once already but still fail to accept the truth. ( I still remember the incident about the topic on the Qur'an, i saw that no Christian replied ever after that because if you believe what Christians tell you about Islam and all the lies against Islam, then this is what always happens. )
So, kindly stop making such statements that only prove one wrong.
Wa Salaam,
Asif.
Than you need to evaluate your own faith Firefly.. the OT is not free from the order to fight in the way of God. it is necessary to fight those who are in opposition to you. And Jesus pbuh even according to the biblical view is not as LOVE ALL and non violent as you would have us think.
--> Nzingha, have you read and understand the OT??? I have read & respect your opinions posted here. You are one of the very few Muslims whom I enjoy debating with. You have told me that you have research over & over the Bible yet, like the statement made above clearly shows that you have failed in the understanding of the OT. To explain it in detail, a total reference has to be made from the OT which is literally quite impossible to post all of them here in this forum.
First don't assume that the masses of Muslims are so ignorant.. there are rules of engagement which we must abide by in order to correctly serve Allah, even in Jihad. As for you proclaims Jihad it would depend on the situation.. There is no one total human authority in our political system.. even the Khalif is to take shura among other muslims..
--> You didn't really answer my question nor my statement.
according to you.. because you personally appose violence as a means to achieve anything. This is YOUR personal opinion and I would say you fail in the ability to discount MILLIONS of chirstians throughout history who don't agree with your view.
--> What I say is the truth, Nzingha. I have learned that Satan is only the true enemy we all must face. Yes, I agree that we do have disputes among ourselves but that is not a "go-ahead" condition to consider either sides enemies. Love is the greatest thing given to us by our Creator. As Christians, we believe that.
To do what? should we give in to oppressors? should we allow our nations to be bullied by the US? Should we willingly give up our lands and become refugess in lands that do not want us? What exactly are you pleading with us to do?
And what exactly do you really "see" firefly?
--> Nzingha, I see violence committed by Islamic groups. I live nearby all these happenings. I know enough to know that you don't know enough about these things and you are merely concentrating on a particular issue to enhance your arguements against Christianity.
how can you be neutral about such a situation and yet come here in order to and i qoute
--> Neutral in a sense that I don't side anyone. I condemn the violence committed by both sides whether it is the Israelites or the Palestinians.
>1) May I know the Muslim
>side of this conflict? As
>in what started it, how
>did it erupted into full-scale
>violence...
Your need to ask tells me you don't see much in the world firefly.
--> Nzingha, to assess the situation at hand, for someone who doesn't stay close to these places, I have to listen to both sides before making any conclusions. I have been in contact with a Jew and he is informing me about the latest information going on & about his opinion of the conflict. This does not mean I am supporting him. All I want is the Muslim's side of this conflict. If you rather not tell me, are there any sites that I can visit to view such information?
>2) Relating to question 1, how
>did you get the information?
>
If your looking for the muslim view firefly ask some palestinian muslims
--> Would you know anyone whom I may contact via email??
To Asif,
I wish to inform these people that this site alone has plenty of reverts from Christianity to Islam. And so they do know about Christianity.
--> Asif, for those whom have converted to Islam who is from a Christian background, they are what I would call, infants. They have neither the knowledge/understanding nor have experience God's love in anyway whatsoever.
But, that's not what i can say about most of the Christians on this site who really have no idea about Islam and have been refuted more than once already but still fail to accept the truth. ( I still remember the incident about the topic on the Qur'an, i saw that no Christian replied ever after that because if you believe what Christians tell you about Islam and all the lies against Islam, then this is what always happens. )
--> Why do you think I haven't reply that topic yet??
Firefly..
>--> Nzingha, have you read and understand the OT??? I have read & respect your opinions posted here. You are one of the very few Muslims whom I enjoy debating with. You have told me that you have research over & over the Bible yet, like the statement made above clearly shows that you have failed in the understanding of the OT. To explain it in detail, a total reference has to be made from the OT which is literally quite impossible to post all of them here in this forum. >>
Do you notice that at any time that someone disagrees with your understanding of the bible, you are so quick to say that they simply do not understand? Why is it that you feel you are the only one here who understands? Personally i think it is the overly passive position that so many want to pass off as the way of Jesus pbuh as having a problem understanding the OT and war. Many can't even understand the message of Jesus pbuh as portrayed in the NT. They take some verses and come with some view that LOVE equates to total passivism. However this view brings about more problems for trinitarian believing christians than they tend to think about.
>There is no one total
>human authority in our political
>system.. even the Khalif is
>to take shura among other
>muslims..
>--> You didn't really answer my question nor my statement.
>
There is your answer Firefly.. There is no total one person who DICTATES to our community who we are to bear arms against. It is the people who make that decision.. it is not one person.. WE choose.
>--> What I say is the truth, Nzingha. I have learned that Satan is only the true enemy we all must face. Yes, I agree that we do have disputes among ourselves but that is not a "go-ahead" condition to consider either sides enemies. Love is the greatest thing given to us by our Creator. As Christians, we believe that. >>
Personally I see that we are our own worst enemies.. Satan has no power.. he has no ability.. he can do diddly.. unless WE allow him. WE are our own worst enemies.
according to the bible God is Love.. but God of the bible also found it right to do battle.. to make war.. to defends oneself.. for capital punishment.. Love doesn't equate to total passivism Love instills law.. love protects.. love defends.. love corrects behaviour. Don't forget these aspects of love.
>--> Nzingha, I see violence committed by Islamic groups. I live nearby all these happenings. I know enough to know that you don't know enough about these things and you are merely concentrating on a particular issue to enhance your arguements against Christianity.
>
I'm not arguing against christianity.. your perceptions of me are a bit off to say the least. I have seen violence as well.. and it may be you that doesn't understand if you fail to see the violence committed against muslims.. if all you see is "violence committed by Islamic groups" than you have very short vision.
>--> Neutral in a sense that I don't side anyone. I condemn the violence committed by both sides whether it is the Israelites or the Palestinians.>>
perhaps you don't undrstand my point here.. i dont' care who you side with really it makes no impact on my life. But how can you come here to and i qoute again..
"I speak up because of what I see happening in the world today. What I am trying to do here is to plead to the Muslim community to do something about it. "
You can't claim to be "neutral" when you come here pleading for us to do something about "it". You can't just see "violence committed by Islamic Groups" and claim to "see happening in the world today". My point is that you dont' know enough to plead with us to do anything.. you dont' even hold a position in the goings on to begin with.. you can't claim to see the violence in the "world" and only see violence comitted by muslims. Your being totally dishonest in your claims.
>--> Nzingha, to assess the situation at hand, for someone who doesn't stay close to these places, I have to listen to both sides before making any conclusions. I have been in contact with a Jew and he is informing me about the latest information going on & about his opinion of the conflict. This does not mean I am supporting him. All I want is the Muslim's side of this conflict. If you rather not tell me, are there any sites that I can visit to view such information?
>
You don't seem to get it.. again you come here to "plead" with us to do "something" about "it" but you dont even know what is going on in OUR lives. You come here with the claim of seeing what is "going on" in the "world" not your area .. but the world.. but dont' know the plight of palestinians.. to only have talked to one jew about his opinion.. to not know the Occupied Palestinians views.. not just muslims firefly but christians are occupied as well.. christians die by the hands of Isralis as well. And you take the position of one Jew.. who is what for the occupation? for the taking of the land from the people who resided there who have rights to it? or did you talk to a jew who is opposed to the occupation.. who is ashamed and embaressed that such things are being done in the name of their religion. Or was this jew one who says that Isralis have no rights to the land which they occupy. ONE jew certainly isn't enough for you to "see" what is going on in the world.. in order to "plead" with us to do "something" now is it?
>--> Asif, for those whom have converted to Islam who is from a Christian background, they are what I would call, infants. They have neither the knowledge/understanding nor have experience God's love in anyway whatsoever.
>
Your extremely arrogant I must say. But it is nothing new with christians.. the whole.. oh you could have never been christian and converted.. you didn't know the LOVE of God.. you didn't understand.. on and on. I find it quite contrary to the meakness that christians like to present.
>
>--> Why do you think I haven't reply that topic yet??
>
why haven't you? I didn't even bother going through the whole post.. for there was no interaction from you at all. Your wanting to know the response of Muslims.. to understand and all yet nothing from you. So why haven't you?
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Firefly, you see violence committed by Muslim griups, but you fail to see the violence committed by Christians? When the Oklahoma bombings took plave, everyone pointed the finger towards Muslims, which was later proved wrong and it was a Christian himself who did it.
You fail to see the violence by people like Timothy McVeigh? You fail to see the violence committed by Serbs? By USA and UK? By Chinese? By gangs in Western countries? You overlook all those acts of violence which account for more deaths than any other acts and you come to us and tell us that there are Islamic organizations committing violence?
We encourage you to go and first convince such people to stop their terrorist acts and then come to Muslims, we will then consider you a truly neutral and fair person, else, you're just another person who claims neutrality but is actually very biased at heart.
Also, your statement that those who converted to Islam from Christianity never understood the message of the Bible etc. This is quite a funny statement. All those who disagree with your faith are wrong, then there are thousands or rather millions who "never understood the bible" because there are many many converts to Islam from Christianity. Well, i guess anyone who rejects the Bible's message never understood it, well, so be it. Because then there are many people who never understood it and shall continue never understanding it and will continue accepting Islam Insha Allah. Reason, because the realized the falsehood in the Bible.
As for your statement " who do you think i didn't reply?" . My answer to that is "Allahu Alim (Allah knows best) " because i didn't see any of the Christians o this site reply to it, not even you. And as far as i am aware, it was copy pasted from a site. As you saw the many errors in that article, you can just imagine the errors in the whole site. The fact that that article was refuted proves that the Qur'an is perfect in every manner. It is my challenge as a Muslim to anyone who can prove something wrong in the Qur'an, because there are no errors in the Qur'an, which goes to show that it contains nothing but the truth, which means that Islam is God's religion.
Om_Mohammed
03-06-2001, 23:37
Hmm...quite interesting, really.
Speaking about terrorist acts...what about the recent bombing that the US did of the pharmeceuticals factory in Sudan, or the simultaneous bombing attack upon Afghanistan...all because of their suspicion that Osama bin Laden was somewhere about, or had something to do with those places. Suspicions which were baseless both before as well as after those bombings. And yet...the super power of the US got off free...with no repercussions...no world threat against them, no world boycott or any sanctions put against them for such terroristic acts.
And...then...what about all the military power and strength that the US supplies Israel with...in order to oppress and degrade those upon whom they have forced a dual life with, the palestinians?
Interesting, really. Sure seems like the scales are quite unbalanced when speaking of terrorists and terroristic activities.
Om Mohammed
actually the US knew it was a pharmacutical (sp?) production company before they blew it up. There was a report completed before the incident and they blew it up anyway.
btw the owner has a law suite against the us for the damages.
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
Om_Mohammed
04-06-2001, 10:45
Exactly my point...they knew what that place was, what was it's existence in the society, as well as it's importance to the immediate area and the people. Yet...they went ahead and blew it up...and got away with it...with no repercussions. A law suit? Not surprising...but very little, very late. I mean...imagine...that if it were the other way around...that Sudanese government (heaven forbid that happening, for the US would surely make sure ahead of time that no weapons of such destruction fall into the hands of the muslims or the arabs)...would have blown up such a company or factory in the US...there would have been never ending sanctions, if not all out war over such an action.
Quite unbalanced scales, if you ask me.
Om Mohammed.
Om_Mohammed
04-06-2001, 11:44
Firefly, you said:
'I have learned that Satan is only the true enemy we all must face. Yes, I agree that we do have disputes among ourselves but that is not a "go-ahead" condition to consider either sides enemies. Love is the greatest thing given to us by our Creator. As Christians, we believe that.'
Let me ask you a question, firefly...how is it that you have learned that Satan is the only enemy? It cannot be from the bible...for there is much reference in the Old Testament alone mentioning many enemies of the followers of religion, as well as the enemies of God. I will get into this topic, inshaAllah, in more detail, in another post.
Your statement:
' I see violence committed by Islamic groups. I live nearby all these happenings. I know enough to know that you don't know enough about these things and you are merely concentrating on a particular issue to enhance your arguements against Christianity.'
First of all...I know that this was directed at Nzingha...but I am interested in responding, as well. You have mentioned the violence committed by Islamic groups, without mentioning the violence committed by not only Jewish and Christian groups, but backed by whole governments, and approved by nearly the whole society of the world by their silence to all that is happenning in oppressing the inhabitants of Palestine. Has anyone rationally asked why the revolt of the inhabitants is occurring? Why they are striking out in meager and spersed acts of violence? But...oh...you are suggesting that they sit idly by, watching and approving of the destruction of their homes, the murders of their loved ones, the oppression of themselves. Firefly...you say that you live near it...what if you should experience living IN it? Perhaps then...you would have a different outlook.
Firefly said:
Neutral in a sense that I don't side anyone. I condemn the violence committed by both sides whether it is the Israelites or the Palestinians.
You are not siding with anyone? Hmm...it appears that you most certainly are siding against the muslims...blaming them for the cause of the violence, when it is in all actuality the illegal occupation of the lands, as well as the oppression of the peoples which has resulted in revolt and violence.
Firefly said:
'I have been in contact with a Jew and he is informing me about the latest information going on & about his opinion of the conflict. This does not mean I am supporting him. All I want is the Muslim's side of this conflict.'
Well, the muslim's side is...that it is the muslims lands which were invaded by the jews...the muslims who moved away a bit...making some land available for the israelis...who later took more, then more, then more...till the state of the area which we have today...occupation of the israelis in palestinian lands...israelis bulldozing palestinian homes, israelis bombing palestinian REFUGEE camps, in the process killing innocent women, men, and children (the youngest of which so far was only 4 months old). The muslim's side is like this: they are tired of the occupation, the oppression, the degradation as if they were second class citizens, or not even citizens at all. They are oppressed to the point that they do not have any say so or any kind of life or freedom even in the refugee camps, in places to which they have been chased out of their ancestral homes, their lands and the crops and orchards confiscated, only to make way for more israeli settlements. Need more on this? I have volumes, really.
Firefly said:
'Asif, for those whom have converted to Islam who is from a Christian background, they are what I would call, infants. They have neither the knowledge/understanding nor have experience God's love in anyway whatsoever.'
Hmm...such arrogance, really. And...to repeat Nzingha's reply..typical of so many christians. How DARE you...to call such people ... your fellow humans...infants, assuming that you know what is in their minds and hearts? How DARE you to claim that they have no knowledge nor understanding...of what...religion..the books, the scriptures. You have absolutely NO IDEA what runs thru anyone's mind and heart, much less of the experiences that we have been thru which has led us to this stage of life and understanding that we have reached. But...then...how could you? For...you have obviously not experienced what we have experienced, and that is the enlightenment of Islam. Although you are assuming to know some things about Islam..you really know little. And...knowledge alone is not enough. You can know all there is to know from the books...yet you will not have the understanding of islam...until and unless you have faith. Knowledge without faith is nothing. But...I will not lower myself to your level, firefly, by calling you names, and assuming of you things which I do not know, nor could never know. However, let me remind you this: Although you have never yet gone across the boundaries of the rules of this site, and you are not running chance of being banned in that manner...you are running on thin waters now. You have crossed the boundaries of common human courtesy...accusing those of us who have passed over from christianity to islam as infants, having no knowledge or understanding, nor experience in God's love. Who have given you that right to assume such a conclusion? Who are you?
Your welcome here is running thin.
Om Mohammed.
I can't answer all these replies in detail as I am facing my exams.
Let me ask you a question, firefly...how is it that you have learned that Satan is the only enemy? It cannot be from the bible...for there is much reference in the Old Testament alone mentioning many enemies of the followers of religion, as well as the enemies of God. I will get into this topic, inshaAllah, in more detail, in another post.
--> Ok, then, tell me in your perspective the role of Satan.
You are not siding with anyone? Hmm...it appears that you most certainly are siding against the muslims...blaming them for the cause of the violence, when it is in all actuality the illegal occupation of the lands, as well as the oppression of the peoples which has resulted in revolt and violence.
--> Would it makes any sense if I came here & plead to all of you to do something about the Israelites?
Well, the muslim's side is...that it is the muslims lands which were invaded by the jews...the muslims who moved away a bit...making some land available for the israelis...who later took more, then more, then more...till the state of the area which we have today...occupation of the israelis in palestinian lands...israelis bulldozing palestinian homes, israelis bombing palestinian REFUGEE camps, in the process killing innocent women, men, and children (the youngest of which so far was only 4 months old). The muslim's side is like this: they are tired of the occupation, the oppression, the degradation as if they were second class citizens, or not even citizens at all. They are oppressed to the point that they do not have any say so or any kind of life or freedom even in the refugee camps, in places to which they have been chased out of their ancestral homes, their lands and the crops and orchards confiscated, only to make way for more israeli settlements. Need more on this? I have volumes, really.
--> I see.
Hmm...such arrogance, really. And...to repeat Nzingha's reply..typical of so many christians. How DARE you...to call such people ... your fellow humans...infants, assuming that you know what is in their minds and hearts? How DARE you to claim that they have no knowledge nor understanding...of what...religion..the books, the scriptures. You have absolutely NO IDEA what runs thru anyone's mind and heart, much less of the experiences that we have been thru which has led us to this stage of life and understanding that we have reached. But...then...how could you? For...you have obviously not experienced what we have experienced, and that is the enlightenment of Islam. Although you are assuming to know some things about Islam..you really know little. And...knowledge alone is not enough. You can know all there is to know from the books...yet you will not have the understanding of islam...until and unless you have faith. Knowledge without faith is nothing. But...I will not lower myself to your level, firefly, by calling you names, and assuming of you things which I do not know, nor could never know. However, let me remind you this: Although you have never yet gone across the boundaries of the rules of this site, and you are not running chance of being banned in that manner...you are running on thin waters now. You have crossed the boundaries of common human courtesy...accusing those of us who have passed over from christianity to islam as infants, having no knowledge or understanding, nor experience in God's love. Who have given you that right to assume such a conclusion? Who are you?
Your welcome here is running thin.
--> Actually, the term infants refers to Christians who have either fallen into temptations or stagnant in their growth in Christ. Ok, obviously I made a mistake by making such a statement in this forum. I apologise for it and if you do ban me, I will understand fully. I guess each of us has their own personal journey. The way I made my statement(which I hope all of you could forgive me) is from my personal journey as a Christian. Haven been knocked down & shown the way with the assurance from the Scriptures has been a humble experience for me in my walk. I have read many testimonials of both converts from Islam to Christianity & vice versa & both has a constrasting testimonials to present. This, I guess remains subjective & can only be explored by ourselves. Sorry, once again.
>
>Firefly said:
>
>'Asif, for those whom have converted
>to Islam who is from
>a Christian background, they are
>what I would call, infants.
>They have neither the knowledge/understanding
>nor have experience God's love
>in anyway whatsoever.'
>Om Mohammed said
>
>Hmm...such arrogance, really. And...to repeat Nzingha's
>reply..typical of so many christians.
>How DARE you...to call such
>people ... your fellow humans...infants,
>assuming that you know what
>is in their minds and
>hearts? How DARE you to
>claim that they have no
>knowledge nor understanding...of what...religion..the books,
>the scriptures. You have absolutely
>NO IDEA what runs thru
>anyone's mind and heart, much
>less of the experiences that
>we have been thru which
>has led us to this
>stage of life and understanding
>that we have reached. But...then...how
>could you? For...you have obviously
>not experienced what we have
>experienced, and that is the
>enlightenment of Islam. Although you
>are assuming to know some
>things about Islam..you really know
>little. And...knowledge alone is not
>enough. You can know all
>there is to know from
>the books...yet you will not
>have the understanding of islam...until
>and unless you have faith.
>Knowledge without faith is nothing.
>But...I will not lower myself
>to your level, firefly, by
>calling you names, and assuming
>of you things which I
>do not know, nor could
>never know. However, let me
>remind you this: Although you
>have never yet gone across
>the boundaries of the rules
>of this site, and you
>are not running chance of
>being banned in that manner...you
>are running on thin waters
>now. You have crossed the
>boundaries of common human courtesy...accusing
>those of us who have
>passed over from christianity to
>islam as infants, having no
>knowledge or understanding, nor experience
>in God's love. Who have
>given you that right to
>assume such a conclusion? Who
>are you?
>
>Your welcome here is running thin.
Om Mohammed,
What would you say about a Muslim that converted to Christianity? What would the Quran say?
Sincerely,
Jared
Om_Mohammed
06-06-2001, 15:15
A person who goes to any religion from Islam, is an apostate from Islam. And...the Quran says this of apostates:
'Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them,-Satan has instigated them and buoyed them up with false hopes.
This, because they said to those who hate what Allah has revealed, 'We will obey you in part of (this) matter"; but Allah knows their (inner) secrets.
But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs?
This because they followed that which displeased Allah, and they hated Allah's good pleasure; so He made their deeds of no effect.' s.47, v.25-28
*************************************
It is rather clear, the Quran's explanation and viewpoint of apostates, but let me elaborate a bit on that: First...it is pointed out that they are following in Satan's footsteps, taking the temptation that he sets forth for them. They are not reviewing Allah's words of reminder, comfort, warning, etc., but they are ignoring all that and following after their own desires, no longer wishing upon pleasing Allah, but in pleasing themselves, looking to the comfort and pleasure of this life, fooling themselves into thinking that they have somehow some way to make it to paradise in the end, if they do good. All their deeds will later be worthless.
You see...Islam is much different from Christianity. In the christian bible...there are laws set forth by God for His servants...yet the modern day church is ignoring those laws, and stating in place of that that if you have faith in the trinity, then that alone is enough for your salvation, without making any emphasis or priority upon good deeds or following the commandments of God. Then there is Islam...in which there is a definite set of Laws set by God. The basic requirement of Islam is faith in the basic sentance, which is the statement of monotheism, the belief in only one God...one figure period...no entertainment of a trinity whatsoever. The process to becoming and being a muslim is a step-by-step procedure, much as Islam itself was revealed. After that, then there are deeds which must be and should be done...the prayers, fasting, charity, pilgrimage, all for the sake of Allah, as a test of one's faith and firmness in belief. It is way of sifting out the weaker believers and the hipocrites from the true believers. On the way, people make mistakes, and sin...and it is their humbling themselves and asking for forgiveness and their return to their Creator which can wipe out those sins, and overturn them into good deeds.
In Islam...it is not generally faith alone which wins a soul entrance into paradise (or so it is understood)...but it is to be coupled with the proof that a person can put forward of their faith, by demonstrating that faith by eminating and following the commandments and laws set forth by the Creator.
That is a big difference between Islam and Christianity, and even Judaism...Islam accepts no slackness in following the commandments of our Creator, whereas...although many christians and jews will agree that there are laws and commandments in their books...yet their societies have become slack as to the following of those commandments, allowing for the chaos which we are witnessing in the world today.
Allah did not create this world in jest, and He did not send down His commanments upon mankind in jest, but as a guideline and a help for those who will follow.
Again...we have in the Quran the latter of the revealed religions. And...although the many muslims of the world (particularly of today) are not perfect in their following of that guidance, still the religion itself, the book of Guidance itself, is the perfect way. For those who choose to accept, then may they continue to receive the guidance and the light. For those who refuse, then may they be helped towards guidance.
For those who are apostates, then their position is worse than those who have refused to accept, for they once had in their reach and in their possession the light and the guidance, and they have let it go. They are truly lost now.
As it is said in the Quran:
'To you your religion,
And to me mine.'
Om Mohammed.
LAST EDITED ON 14-10-01 AT 10:00 PM (GMT)[p]LAST EDITED ON 14-10-01 AT 04:31*PM (GMT)
Om Mohammed,
I do not know where you are physically located. I am in the United States of America. We have a democratic republic here and a guarenteed right to freedom of speech.
I want you to know that many Americans did not support the bombings in Sudan, the Gulf War. A Roman catholic priest I was living with in 1989 preached every day at Mass that the Gulf War was inappropriate.
Even now, the majority of Americans are urging President Bush to be very careful not to target civilians in our attempt to arrest Osoma Bib Laden. And Bush is being very careful here not to turn this into a fight against Islam. Many Muslims live here in the United States. The United States values freedom of religious expression.
I, personally, wrote emails to the President of the United States, my senators, and congressmen and all my government officials on September 12, 2001, urging them not to take retaliatory action for the bombing of the world trade center. I, personally, have written my government officials urging that the United States review its policies in Palestine.
I am a member of human rights group called Amnesty International that criticized Christian atrocities in Bosnia, and we have taken action to try to stop the death penalty in the United States. Many members of Amnesty International are Christians, but there are Muslims, Jews, and even atheists who are members. I was exposed to Amnesty International by my priest. We have spoken out about injustices by Christians in America and in places as far from me as Zimbabwe and South Africa.
Why have I done this? Because I am a Christian, and Jesus commands us to love our enemies, bless those who persecute us, and pray for those we disagree with. He commands us to turn the other cheek wehn struck.
Just this week, I was accosted by criminals of a different racial back-ground than I am. Five young men struck me and beat me and held a knife to my throat asking for money. As they did so, I asked them if they believed in God. I told them God loved them, and asked them if God would have them act like this. This is the second time I was assaulted by members of this racial group. I never mention what group it is, because I do not want to promote racism. I pray Christ will forgive them and guide them in truth.
You are correct that Christians and Westerners have misunderstandings and prejudices aout Muslims. I do not deny it. I have friends and relatives after September 11, 2001 who think that President Bush would be completely justified to kill whoever gets in the way of apprehending Osoma Bin Laden. I hope that our government is not doing that, but it's hard to get accurate information.
Many Americans are feeling what you describe to Firefly in your scenario with the bulldozer and family members under attack. It is hard for all of us to act spiritual when we feel threatened. Now we are hearing reports of people poisoned through our mail system by terrorists.
Many of us fall. I believe this happened with the crusades when an Egyptian ordered the destruction of the Christian site of the Holy Sepulchar in Jerusalem. The actions of one crazy sultan lead to a series of events where even the Pope was ignoring the teachings of Christ, and for well over a hundred years, Christians became terrorits themselves.
I, personally, went to confession (a ritual when we Catholics feel we have sinned gravely) and prayed long hard over my anger after September 11, 2001. I come to this site to seek understanding so that I will not be turned to hatred towards Muslims. I want to feel we can co-exist and promote mutual understanding.
I have good Muslim friends from Uganda here in the United States. We often have dinner together, spend time at each others houses, and so forth. We have even prayed together, and several came to my Catholic wedding, where they sat with Jewish friends, Protestants, and the large Catholic families of my wife and I. My wife and I are of different racial backgrounds and nationalities. I wish the world could get along like people at our wedding.
I ask my Muslim friends the questions that I ask on this site. They do not eat pork, and they do pray, but they do not pray all five times per day as they are supposed to. They are not as devout as you are. For example, they drink alcohol moderately. They dance. They haven't read all of the Qur'an either. They often don't know the answers to my questions. That's OK, because I know that not all Catholics can articulate their faith, and I know there are Catholics who can articulate their faith more intelligently and more detailed than I can.
What I believe that Firefly is trying to ask is whether Muslims in places where violence is occuring are speaking out against injustice when a Muslim commits it? I'd like to know this too.
Nobody denies that Christians and Jews ALSO commit acts of injustice in anger. But when they do, people like Firefly and myself speak up among our own people and say "Stop it! Christ would not want us acting like this!"
Do you speak up among Muslims who are contemplating the killing of civilians and say, "Stop it! Islam is peace! Allah would not want us to act like this!"?
Regarding your original posting that addressed both the perception of terrorism and several theological issues, I can't rspond to everything. I have responded elsewhere about the Trinity and the divinity of Christ. You also bring up his humanity this time. Christians believe it is a great sign of God's love that God chose to become FULLY human, like us in every way but sin. Thus, we do not deny that Jesus was born of a woman, ate, grew tired, slept, was tempted, felt anger, cried, and even died. Had he not done these things, he would not have been fully human, and not fully one of us.
The fact that Jesus did these things is no proof that he is not God. We believe that God freely chose to condescend to become human. As Saint Ireneas puts it "God became human that humans might become divine". We believe that God loved us so much that he joined creation. As a human person, he lived the perfect life that we can never live. Yet, despite being sinless, he was crucified and died on a cross. In this sign, we believe that he bore the penalty for our sins, the innocent for the sake of the guilty. In the resurrection, he demonstrated his power over sin and death. If we place our trust in him, we are promised to share eternal life with him. Thus, while we do good works in gratitude prompted by his grace, we are not saved by works alone. We are saved by God's grace alone -- by his forgiveness demonstrated in the cross and resurrection.
Christ continues to live, and every Christian has a relationship with him. Anyone who leaves Christianity for another religion never really experienced the risen Christ to begin with. Thus, in your argumentation, it is not just verses of the Qur'an or the Bible that will convince a Christian to change. You are arguing against an experience. However, we do believe that our faith is reasonable and historically evidential, so we do try to answer your questions. Firefly answered your 101 Contradictions in the Bible, and I answered some of your and Lulua's other questions in other postings.
But I also come here not to argue, but to seek.....
My question to you: How do you reconcile Sura 29:46-47 with your own belief that that the New Testament is inconsistent, irrational, and that the New Testament clearly teaches the divinity of Christ and the Trinity?
The sura in question follows:
"Be courteous when you argue with the People of the Book, except with those who do evil. Say: 'We believe in that which is revealed to us and which is revealed to you. Our God and your God is one. To him we surrender ourselves.' Thus we have revealed the Book to you."
Is there any interpretation of Islam and the Qur'an that allows for the divinity of Christ or the Trinity?
Hello jcecil !
" Is there any interpretation of Islam and the Qur'an that allows for the divinity of Christ or the Trinity? "
No.
However, yes, in the Qur'an, Allah does order us to behave properly with the People of the Book. Allah also tells us that some amongst the People of the Book are believers, yet the vast majority are transgressors. Now, who are these believers from the People of the Book. Is the Qur'an saying that those who believe Jesus is the son of God are believers? No. The Qur'an says no such thing. The definition of a believer in the Qur'an is as follows :
"Only those are Believers who have believed in God and His Apostle, and have never since doubted, but have striven with their belongings and their persons in the Cause of God: Such are the sincere ones, Were We then weary with the first Creation, that they should be in confused doubt about a new Creation?" (49:15)
Just in case you are unaware, the Apostle mentioned here is Muhammed (SAAW).
" O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs. " (4:171)
The above verses clearly point out that it is a lie to say Jesus is the son of God as Allah says "Nor say of God aught but the truth". Allah also points out that saying such a thing is committing excesses in one's religion.
The verses that state that some amongst the People of the Book are believers, do not mean that those who believe in Jesus being the son of God are believers. It points out to the fact that many Christians did not accept Jesus as the son of God and continued following Allah's message as it was revealed to Jesus (AS).
Muslims believe that the Injeel was revealed to Jesus (AS). We believe that this book was later corrupted by people. And we believe that additions such as Jesus being the son of God were made. But we also believe that many Christians refused to believe in this (Jesus being the son of God), even before the arrival of Islam. They cotinued to follow the truth, as it was revealed to Jesus (AS). And they believed in Allah, and His Oneness. These are the believers from the People of the Book, including Christians. It is also our belief, that the believers from amongst the People of the Book, once they received the final message of God (i.e the Qur'an), they accepted that as well. These are the believers that are referred to.
Contrary to the misconception that many Christians have that the Qur'an endorses their belief as bein true, it states that such beliefs are untrue.
I hope i have been helpful.
Also, i want to ask a question from you. Do Christians believe that the Old Testament is God's word?
Take care,
Good Bye,
Asif.
Thank you for answering my question directly. I agree that Qur'an is irreconcilable with my belief in the Trinity and divinity of Christ based on the very passages you quote (I've been re-reading the Qur'an myself since September 11, 2001).
Let me ask another question. Do Muslims have a universal, or even majority, opinion which parts of the New Testament are divinely inspired?
And, is there any other test for what parts are inspired than consistency with the Qur'an?
And, if the only test is the Qur'an, how is this not a circular argument rigged against any honest seeking of truth? (I hope this question makes sense the way it's worded. If not, I'll try to clarify upon request).
I ask these questions because denial of the doctrine of the Trinity renders about 75% of the New Testament meaningless. Yet, the overwhelming response to my postings is that Muslims acknowledge that parts of New testament are true, but not the whole, and I'm trying to understand how you decide which parts are true and which parts aren not.
Om_Mohammed
16-10-2001, 16:22
Hello, Jcecil.
Thankyou for your explicit and informative message.
Coming from a Christian background myself, I understand quite well about Christian life and practices, as well as western life in general, and American life in particular. But thanx much for the kind and thorough explanations you have given. I am sure that it will be of help to others who perhaps have no idea of truly what that life is like.
You are to be commended for your help you do with organizations and Amnesty International...I truly admire those who hand out the helping hand to others less fortunate, regardless of their religion. The kindness and care for fellow humans is something indigent in Islam as well, and not something particular to Christianity alone.
As for the many Americans who are and have been for years against their government's foreign policy (particularly those policies in which have resulted in attacking innocents, such as what happened in Sudan and Afghanistan years ago, and the results of the Gulf War...among other incidents)...is also well known. The tragedy lies in the policies made by those in power to set such policies into action, as well as the results of such policies world wide. America, by it's own definition as well as definition from the rest of the world, has evolved into a true superpower...but such a level of stature does not come without great responsibility as well as advantages.
You mentioned that Jesus commanded to pray for those who you disagree with...and I can give you more than merely one example (but will state here only one) of prophet Mohammed(SAAW) praying for the enemies of early Islam. It was when Mohammed had sent some of his companions to a particular tribe of Arabs, called the 'Daws' tribe, and upon being received by rejection and dejection time after time, the companions returned to the prophet exhausted and angry and at a loss as to what to do. They complained to him about the reception they got from those people, asking the prophet to pray to God about them (their intent was that the prophet should supplicate some infliction or punishment upon them...for their refusal to listen to their reasoning and preaching Islam). They became surprised, when, upon hearing the prophet recite his prayer, and recite aloud his supplications in that prayer, asking God to be kind and direct the 'Daws' people and guide them to the light of Islam. It was not long until the whole of the Daws tribe came from their lands toward the prophet, asking to be accepted into the Muslim community, pledging their allegience to Islam. There are more such examples from the prophet's life, which can be found in the Hadith resources.
My point in explaining this is to demonstrate how Islam teaches us and directs us to be kind and understanding and patient with our foes. Yet, at the same time, Islam does not advocate the point about 'turning the other cheek'...but rather advocates self-defense, strength in the face of a rigid enemy, and opposition to oppression. In other words, find a middle course, and be good in judgement to know when to use kindness and softness, and when to be harsh and sturdy in defense.
I describe such scenes of bulldozers and other such atrocities, because for one thing...they are a reality for the Palestinians...a daily reality that so much of the west is totally ignorant about. Not that it is actually the public's own fault..but ignorant just the same. Merely hearing numbers of deaths and injuries of ppl killed daily is rather insufficient to fully understand what is going on. As well, to even hear of the daily atrocities being committed against people who are forbidden by the world community to have even the weaponry to fight back with, or enough food to carry on (because of sieges being waged against them by the Israelis, or internationally-agreed-upon boycotts against supplying arms, etc.)...to merely hear of such atrocities without truly knowing the history of the land at stake is to know only a small portion of the story at hand. So many westerners sincerely do not know why the Israelis and Palestinians are going at it for so long and so fiercely...nothing other than that it is a fight for the holy land. But why? Very few westerners really realize that it has been caused by the asurption of Palestinian lands and properties by the Israelis with force...Israelis who were, in the first place, citizens and residents of other world countries, and had no tie whatsoever to the middle eastern region other than the name of their religion, Judaism. Although it is a complicated and twisted story, it is quite simple in it's approach.
The misunderstanding of Islam across the world (in the west particular) and misconceptions is great...and the misrepresentation of Islam in the media in general has placed a great burdon let alone terrific horrid assumptions upon Islam and Muslims.
I appreciate that you have come here to learn, and perhaps to take some of what you learn, in order to spread some truth to those whom you can reach. That is also a commendable effort.
I realize that there are many many people of the world who are either Christians, Jews, atheists, or any other faith other than Muslims, and may never choose to become Muslims. It is not my goal nor intent to change all those people over to being Muslims. However, it IS my goal and my duty to inform people to the best of my ability about what Islam truly is. And that in part includes trying to disseminate the great disservice that the many misconceptions and misunderstandings have done to the image of Islam the world over.
Strange that you consider me as being devout...for you really know little of me. I would like to think of myself as devout...and I hope that I attain that level of worship, and that it is accepted from me. I only consider such things as the 5x regular prayer and the fasting and the abstention from forbidden things as very basics of the religion...which is in fact a way of life more than merely a religion.
I am sorry, have not seen so much of Firefly's posts recently to see the question you are saying he/she is posing...I will have to go back to review. But...will answer you this: As in most societies and communities, you will find, because of the tendencies of human nature to slip and slide from that which is right, you will find in Muslim communities perhaps a degree of favoritism to protect 'their own'...much as you would find in almost any other society of the world (human error there). However, as a general rule, Muslims are intolerant of injustice, regardless of who commits it...whether that be a muslim, christian, jew, or any other religious adherant. Islam teaches us that justice is something to be dealt with in all equality. As for the comparison between muslims and non-muslims on justice and punishment for doing some injustices, you will most generally find that perhaps the punishment dealt to the muslim would be greater than the punishment dealt to the non-muslim for the same injustice. This is because Islam is against injustice, and a sever punishment befalls the muslims who commit such injustices and crimes. The non-muslim might find more comfort in finding a less punishment, for a non-muslim would not be bound quite so rigidly by Islamic laws (although all laws apply to all equally).
As for speaking up and trying to convince ppl of not doing injustices...yes...we do so try to influence one another, reminding one another of our duties as muslims, and of the laws that we must all obey, including the punishments incrued for one who chooses not to obey the laws.
================================================== ===============
Now to approach the issue of the Islamic view and understanding of Jesus and his relationship to the rest of creation. There is really much to be said, yet it is all quite simple and logical. And what I will be saying is a basic representation of the Islamic viewpoint on this issue, and I will not be giving you references from the Quran, in order to consolidate on the space (this is already becoming a long post). For Quranic references which emphasize and support such viewpoints, I will make a fresh posting under a new title, inshaAllah(God willing).
To begin with something quite basic, I would like to relay the dictionary definition of 'devine', taken from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary.
divine-1. of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god(as in: the divine right of kings). being a deity (as in: the divine Saviour). directed to a deity (as in: divine worship). 2. supremely good or superb (as in: her pies were simply divine. heavenly, god-like.
Please try to either keep in mind these definitions or refer to them as I proceed, and even when viewing the verses I will be presenting in a future post on this topic.
The thoughts of Islam and Christianity are quite parellel on some points, yet quite different on others. Perhaps the most obvious differing point is about the belief in Jesus, his very being of existence, as well as the end to his life on this earth, and his purpose entirely.
A muslim is one who submits him/herself to the will and power of God...and the Quran is the criterion of guidance for muslims to gather their directives from. It is from the Quran that we gather the basics of our belief.
We believe that Jesus was a man, a great and pious man, but a man all the same. The Christian belief that God presented himself in human form is tantamount to belief in incarnation of God into human form. We do not believe that. God is greatly and far above that.
He chose and desired for us, mankind, messengers and prophets who He inspired with the directives of the scriptures and formation of worship, in order that we may receive from His blessing of that guidance in order to be redeemed of our sins, so that we may avoid an unending torment of hell. It is through those messages throughout time which were delivered by His chosen prophets and messengers, that we find the directives by which to mold and form our lives and practices. It is in those messages also that we receive instruction on how such worship is to be done, as well as guidance and instruction as to how to seek His forgiveness in order that we may appeal to His unending Mercy and Grace. Naturally, it is ultimately ONLY that Mercy and Grace which comes from our Creator that is our salvation, but our way to reaching that salvation is by approaching it by following the directives given us in the various messages and scriptures.
In other words, it is a sense of consequences of behaviour patterns, combined with a true humbling of the human spirit to attaining divine Mercy and Grace and Forgiveness, and therefore protection from the fate of hell, and admittance into heaven.
We are also taught in the Quran that each soul is responsible for his/her own sins...and cannot carry the sins of others. This outcasts the older theory of the state of mankind in 'original' sin, cast upon the human species because of the sins of their forefathers, Adam and Eve and their progeny. The state in which we are now in is nothing more than an advent of our creation, and our assignment to this life-experience on earth for a time, as a testing stage by which we ultimately pass or fail, and perhaps even slip by, by the Grace of God. (of course, depending totally on His Grace, as well as our sincerety in humbling ourselves to asking for that Grace and Mercy and Forgiveness).
It is because of all of the above mentioned outlooks towards our life-existence, that the theory that Jesus is the saviour of the world by dying for all of mankind's sins...and that whoever should believe in that is saved...is not acceptable. Because, if that were truly so, then it would not matter the point of consequences according to behavior. The worst criminal could live and continue in his terrible crimes of terror and death, yet proclaim his undying faith in the savior Jesus in order to be eventually saved from the pits of hell-fire, and not worry about any consequences for his crimes in this life on earth. That simply does not make sense...and is undigestible.
Whereas Islam appeals to the common human logic of affairs, that each decision or action or non-action results in some consequence or another. Of course, the final decision of recompense of punishment or reward lies with God...but the terms are quite explicitly explained to us in the Quran...you sin, then you are up for this or that punishment. In fact, it is in part the fear of such punishments that deter some of the worst criminals or would-be-criminals from doing what they most easily do. It is not necessarily the respect that they may have for God, but rather the belief that they may have in the effect of the consequences incrued upon themselves, as well as the fear of such punishment to be waged upon them eventually.
You said: 'As Saint Ireneas puts it "God became human that humans might become divine".' Please refer again to the definition of 'divine'...humans are of one sort of creation, and the divine being is the Creator. The two are very separate entities, and do not intermingle. Humans cannot become divine...but can perhaps attempt to perfect their worshipping in order to seek divine approval and mercy...but to become divine themselves is against the very nature of the creation.
You said: 'We believe that God loved us so much that he joined creation.' We as Muslims believe that God DOES love us, and wishes for us pleasantness and happiness, and that is why He has given us the criterion in the form of scriptures in order to follow to attain such ultimate pleasures.
You said: 'As a human person, he lived the perfect life that we can never live.' We believe that Mohammed(SAAW) was truly the perfect example for all of mankind to look to in order to form their own life patterns. It was only Mohammed out of all the prophets who encompassed all ways of life. As a young boy, he had been a son, nephew, grandson, student, and then later developed into various forms of work such as shepherd, trader, traveller, teacher, husband, father, grandfather, brother, community leader, commander of armies, and much more. He eminated a complete and comprehensive life that anyone in any stage of the development of the world can look to him and find an example for their living. All such examples are given and recorded in the Hadith collections.
Each of the prophets was given special qualities of their personalities or special gifts of practice and demonstration that distinguished them one from the other. It was in Mohammed that those qualities were gathered together into one man.
We are taught to place our trust in God alone...not in any being whatsoever, regardless of how pious or perfect that they may seem to have been. A creation is a creation is a creation...and can never evolve into the Creator. Very simple deductive logic, really.
The basic Islamic belief about Jesus is that he did not die on the cross, nor was he buried, but was taken up to God(i.e. resurrection) as he was. As for the cross, we are told that God provided a replacement for him on the cross, someone whom all supposed was in all actuality Jesus, because of the resemblance to him...but that Jesus was taken up to him, spared the human death for the time being, until the time is later deemed that he return to earth, and will eventually taste the human death, as do all human bodies. There are verses in the Quran to support this, and I will be presenting all this in another posting, inshaAllah.
You see, I have much knowledge of the Bible, and of Christianity...for I have 'experienced' it all myself...nothing that any of you can present here is anything new to me. I am asking you such things, in order to try to help you to see truth and logical deduction as I have found it.
If it appeals to you, fine...and if it doesn't, then fine to. Your choice ultimately. But at least I have done my duty in presenting such knowledge and thought-process to you. Then the rest of the responsibility lies with you.
As for your reference to S. 29, v.46-47...you have a strong point there...and perhaps I have been guilty of arguing with Christians and others in ways not befitting a good muslim. For that I seek Allah's true Mercy and Forgiveness, as well as I do ask for His guidance in such matters.
Human nature is a funny and tempting thing, and I have mentioned many other times, that sometimes what a reaction a person receives from others may and very well be is in part due to what he himself has dished out in the first place. In other words, if you begin with someone on an argumentative term, then perhaps what you receive is argumentative and accusing as well. It depends upon the outset to begin with. I try to curb my temper and the temptation to refute claims with anger and accusations...and sometimes it is difficult to do so.
I will tell you frankly that a basic tenet of belief for a Muslim is the unconditional belief in the Revelations from God...all the revelations, and this as well is backed up by a particular verse from the Quran. However, in reference to today's Bible...I would like to ask you to direct your attention to several points. There are many contradictions within any one given version of the Bible. Why is that? These are major as well as minor contradictions...and on many varrying topics. If those previous scriptures (that which came before the Quran) were really still in tact as God revealed them, then how can it be that there has occured so many contradictions?
Please disregard my re-posting of the '101 Contradictions'. Look throughout the Bible, the NT if you will...for the varrying narrations of the story of the crucifiction, to name one major topic. There are many differing views and recollections of this. If that was truly the Revelation of God...then how could that be that there are such contradictions? It is something of simple logic, really...not meant as any insult. Truly. Please thoughtfully and unbiasedly consider this. Question it for yourself, and study it for yourself.
As muslims, we are commanded to believe in the scriptures, and therefore DO believe in the scriptures...but where are those scriptures? The original revelations? The unadultered revelations? The 'unrevised' Bible? It is nowhere in existence today...at least not within human reach.
As for your mention or belief that the NT teaches of the Trinity, that is another of the misconceptions and contradictions of the bible. For, you will also find within the NT mention, by Jesus (as is demonstrated within the quotes of the Bible)...that God is only one, and that Jesus did worship...whom did he worship? If he himself was in fact God-incarnate by having been the divine being in the form of a human...then why worship? and whom? If he himself(Jesus) was already God...a form of God, as is claimed by the doctrine of the trinity, then...who is left to worship? and why?
It is only humans who are need of worship..and who are commanded and directed to worship...and God is God...neither needing such worship, nor having another deity to direct that worship to.
There is absolutely NO description of Christ in Islam to delude to him having divine qualities or being a deity or a having a partnership in the divinity, and as well ... the trinity is completely and inadvertantly rejected.
As I said...all that I have said is totally and definitely and without any confusion supported by evidences from the Quran. And I will be posting such verses in another post. This one is already too long, and getting rather confusing to keep up with.
You have repeated the verse of direction in dealing with the people of the Book more than once...enforcing your standpoint and insinuation that I have mistreated some Christians or others here at these forums. If that is so, that I have mistreated without due cause some non-muslims, I truly apologize to any whom I may have insulted or angered, and even greater, I seek refuge with Allah from incuring His anger upon me by committing any sins.
However, let me also remind you...that at the time of the postings of Firefly and others(perhaps you have not yet read back that far in our discussions...I don't know)...there were some posts by some (cannot even remember now if Firefly was in fact among them, or if it was from others)...that were insulting to Muslim beliefs, and as well were in fact preaching Christianity. For one thing, human nature is kind of like a mirror...you receive much of the time what you give to others in the form of behavior. Anger and hate only serve to produce more anger and hate. As for my posting of the re-post of the '101 Contradictions'...that was truly the most hated thing (to myself) to have done, even at the time. In fact, I truthfully pondered on whether or not to post it for days before actually going ahead to post it. It was only at the insistance of a particular non-muslim participant at these forums who was denying that there could even be one contradiction, much less seemingly countless. It was mainly in order to prove a point, as well as to perhaps open up some eyes and minds, and certainly not intended out of hate or contempt or disrespect to anyone.
I hope that this message has served to answer some of your questions. For the proper quotes and references, I will be making another post, inshaAllah.
Om Mohammed.
LAST EDITED ON 17-10-01 AT 01:22 PM (GMT)[p]> So many westerners sincerely do not
>know why the Israelis and
>Palestinians are going at it
>for so long and so
>fiercely...nothing other than that it
>is a fight for the
>holy land. But why? Very
>few westerners really realize that
>it has been caused by
>the asurption of Palestinian lands
>and properties by the Israelis
>with force...Israelis who were, in
>the first place, citizens and
>residents of other world countries,
>and had no tie whatsoever
>to the middle eastern region
>other than the name of
>their religion, Judaism. Although it
>is a complicated and twisted
>story, it is quite simple
>in it's approach.
>
I agree that it is complicated and twisted, and I feel for the Palestinians, and understand their point of view. The Jewish perspective is that they've been kicked around by the world community for thousands of years, never finding a homeland except a brief period under David and Solomon. They need to live somewhere in peace -- but I also understand the Palestinians were immediately there first if we look at modern times.
>
>Strange that you consider me as
>being devout...for you really know
>little of me. I would
>like to think of myself
>as devout...and I hope that
>I attain that level of
>worship, and that it is
>accepted from me. I only
>consider such things as the
>5x regular prayer and the
>fasting and the abstention from
>forbidden things as very basics
>of the religion...which is in
>fact a way of life
>more than merely a religion.
>
I like the "way of life" approach. I approach my own spirituality the same way. As to your devotion, it comes across in your knowledge of both the Qur'an and the Bible, and the tone of seeking a rational understanding of all the questions you approach. The friends I mention elsewhere who are Muslims are good people, but know very little of what the Qur'an actually says, and do not question as rigorously as you demonstrate on this site. Though I do not know you persoanlly, your devotion comes through your writing.
> I will
>not be giving you references
>from the Quran, in order
>to consolidate on the space
>(this is already becoming a
>long post). For Quranic references
>which emphasize and support such
>viewpoints, I will make a
>fresh posting under a new
>title, inshaAllah(God willing).
>
Actually this approach is prefered by me, since I can read the Qur'an myself and ask for a reference when I need it. I would prefer to take the same approach with the Bible. Let's just share our opinions, and where we need to know if it's backed by our Scriptures, we can ask each other.
>To begin with something quite basic,
>The thoughts of Islam and Christianity
>are quite parellel on some
>points, yet quite different on
>others. Perhaps the most obvious
>differing point is about the
>belief in Jesus, his very
>being of existence, as well
>as the end to his
>life on this earth, and
>his purpose entirely.
>
I completely agree. At some point, since you have been exposed to Christianity, I would be interested in your personal story of conversion -- not the citing of Qur'anic verses, but what it was like to move form Christianity to Islam: what you found emotionally difficult, What you found emotionally appealing, what your friends and family said, etc....
>A muslim is one who submits
>him/herself to the will and
>power of God...and the Quran
>is the criterion of guidance
>for muslims to gather their
>directives from. It is from
>the Quran that we gather
>the basics of our belief.
>
Let's assume for a moment that we having this discussion in 550 A.D. on the Western calandar in Catholic Ireland. The New Testament in use today was already widely disbursed in the form of the Latin Vulgate. Would a follower of the Boook prior to Mohammed who believed in the Trinity based on a reading of Saint Jerome's Vulgate be at fault in Allah's eyes according to your world view? Or, would he be submitting to Allah in the best way he knew how?
>
>We believe that Jesus was a
>man, a great and pious
>man, but a man all
>the same. The Christian belief
>that God presented himself in
>human form is tantamount to
>belief in incarnation of God
>into human form. We do
>not believe that. God is
>greatly and far above that.
>
It is not just tantamount to saying God was incarnate. That is exactly what we say. God became flesh: true God and true man. Christ is the divine as human, and the human as divine. He is both a human nature, and God nature. He has both a human will and a divine will. He is not merely God appearing to be human, but is God in human flesh!
> Naturally, it is ultimately
>ONLY that Mercy and Grace
>which comes from our Creator
>that is our salvation, but
>our way to reaching that
>salvation is by approaching it
>by following the directives given
>us in the various messages
>and scriptures.
>
OK -- Here I need a verse of the Qur'an. Is salvation by grace alone really an Islamic belief?
>
>We are also taught in the
>Quran that each soul is
>responsible for his/her own sins...and
>cannot carry the sins of
>others. This outcasts the older
>theory of the state of
>mankind in 'original' sin, cast
>upon the human species because
>of the sins of their
>forefathers, Adam and Eve and
>their progeny. The state in
>which we are now in
>is nothing more than an
>advent of our creation, and
>our assignment to this life-experience
>on earth for a time,
>as a testing stage by
>which we ultimately pass or
>fail, and perhaps even slip
>by, by the Grace of
>God. (of course, depending totally
>on His Grace, as well
>as our sincerety in humbling
>ourselves to asking for that
>Grace and Mercy and Forgiveness).
>
I sort of agree with this idea of a testing stage -- though if you stretch it too far, you make Allah into a cruel, arbitrary, and abusive instructor. Christians agree that we are primarily responsible for our own personal sins, but emphasize that we are effected by the sins of others. This is what 'original sin' and even 'social sin' teachings are about.
>
>It is because of all of
>the above mentioned outlooks towards
>our life-existence, that the theory
>that Jesus is the saviour
>of the world by dying
>for all of mankind's sins...and
>that whoever should believe in
>that is saved...is not acceptable.
>Because, if that were truly
>so, then it would not
>matter the point of consequences
>according to behavior. The worst
>criminal could live and continue
>in his terrible crimes of
>terror and death, yet proclaim
>his undying faith in the
>savior Jesus in order to
>be eventually saved from the
>pits of hell-fire, and not
>worry about any consequences for
>his crimes in this life
>on earth. That simply does
>not make sense...and is undigestible.
>
All sin has consequences, and I am not denying that God's justice demands that we sow as we reap. However, sin is more than actions. We have a sinful nature, and it is this that Christ delivers us from. It is done through a process. After birth comes growth. I do believe that the murderer or pedophile can place his total trust in the Lord and be saved at the last moment -- at least in theory. I add that qualification because the habits we are forming throughout our life are likely to guide our choices even at the moment of death. However, assuming a person truly surrendered to the Lord at death, ALL of the eternal consequences of sin are absolved. As a Catholic, I do believe in purgatory. So such a person may not go straight to heaven. However, that person can be saved. That is my hope for everyone. I honestly hope I will meet Adolf Hitler or Slobadan Milosevich in heaven having dinner with Mother Theresa and Mohammed. That would be fantastic!
>In fact, it
>is in part the fear
>of such punishments that deter
>some of the worst criminals
>or would-be-criminals from doing what
>they most easily do. It
>is not necessarily the respect
>that they may have for
>God, but rather the belief
>that they may have in
>the effect of the consequences
>incrued upon themselves, as well
>as the fear of such
>punishment to be waged upon
>them eventually.
>
But fear of punishment is not the most holy way to live. We should not kill because we value and respect the sacredness of life -- not because we are afraid of prison or hell. Fear of hell may motivate us seek the value God is trying to communicate, but fear of hell should not be our primary motivation for doing what is right. We do things with mixed motives. I probably do go to Confession as much out of fear as I go out of true contrition and sorrow for my sins. However, perfect love casts out all fear (1 John 4:18).
>You said: 'As Saint Ireneas puts
>it "God became human that
>humans might become divine".' Please
>refer again to the definition
>of 'divine'...humans are of one
>sort of creation, and the
>divine being is the Creator.
>The two are very separate
>entities, and do not intermingle.
>Humans cannot become divine...but can
>perhaps attempt to perfect their
>worshipping in order to seek
>divine approval and mercy...but to
>become divine themselves is against
>the very nature of the
>creation.
>
There is always a distinction between the creator and the created. On this, we agree. However, Christians believe that the Holy Spirit dwells within us and conforms our will to Christ's such that we are united with God in a mystical way. Saint John of the Cross uses the analogy of light passing through glass. God is the light. We are the glass. To the onlooker, if the glass is pure and clean enough, all the observer sees is the light. We do not literally become the light, but the light infuses our being and fills us such that we become like unto God. This is part of the reason Catholics ask the prayers of saints in heaven as well saints on earth.
>You said: 'We believe that God
>loved us so much that
>he joined creation.' We as
>Muslims believe that God DOES
>love us, and wishes for
>us pleasantness and happiness, and
>that is why He has
>given us the criterion in
>the form of scriptures in
>order to follow to attain
>such ultimate pleasures.
>
I'm sure you've probably heard Christians say that the Bible is a collection of personal love letters to the believer. We don't deny Scripture, but elsewhere, I think that you and I have established that we have very different views on how Scripture is inspired. I hope we can discuss this more. I am keenly interested in what you think Mohammed was experiencing while receiving a revalation? And what was the author experiencing who compiled his words into the Qur'an? And what are the criterion for establishing which Scriptures to follow.
>You said: 'As a human person,
>he lived the perfect life
>that we can never live.'
>We believe that Mohammed(SAAW) was
>truly the perfect example for
>all of mankind to look
>to in order to form
>their own life patterns. It
>was only Mohammed out of
>all the prophets who encompassed
>all ways of life. As
>a young boy, he had
>been a son, nephew, grandson,
>student, and then later developed
>into various forms of work
>such as shepherd, trader, traveller,
>teacher, husband, father, grandfather, brother,
>community leader, commander of armies,
>and much more. He eminated
>a complete and comprehensive life
>that anyone in any stage
>of the development of the
>world can look to him
>and find an example for
>their living. All such examples
>are given and recorded in
>the Hadith collections.
>
We can discuss this more in the future. Personally, I am not impressed with the little I know about Mohammed's life, but I have other questions more pressing than that.
>Each of the prophets was given
>special qualities of their personalities
>or special gifts of practice
>and demonstration that distinguished them
>one from the other. It
>was in Mohammed that those
>qualities were gathered together into
>one man.
>
We'll discuss at a later time.......
>We are taught to place our
>trust in God alone...not in
>any being whatsoever, regardless of
>how pious or perfect that
>they may seem to have
>been. A creation is a
>creation is a creation...and can
>never evolve into the Creator.
>Very simple deductive logic, really.
>
Are you sure this isn't a Christianizing of Islam?
>
>The basic Islamic belief about Jesus
>is that he did not
>die on the cross, nor
>was he buried, but was
>taken up to God(i.e. resurrection)
>as he was. As for
>the cross, we are told
>that God provided a replacement
>for him on the cross,
>someone whom all supposed was
>in all actuality Jesus, because
>of the resemblance to him...but
>that Jesus was taken up
>to him, spared the human
>death for the time being,
>until the time is later
>deemed that he return to
>earth, and will eventually taste
>the human death, as do
>all human bodies. There are
>verses in the Quran to
>support this, and I will
>be presenting all this in
>another posting, inshaAllah.
>
Bold statements with no proof other than the Qur'an and the third century writings of the docetists.
>You see, I have much knowledge
>of the Bible, and of
>Christianity...for I have 'experienced' it
>all myself...nothing that any of
>you can present here is
>anything new to me. I
>am asking you such things,
>in order to try to
>help you to see truth
>and logical deduction as I
>have found it.
>
I would be very interested in your personal story of conversion to the extent you feel comfortable sharing on the internet.
>If it appeals to you, fine...and
>if it doesn't, then fine
>to. Your choice ultimately. But
>at least I have done
>my duty in presenting such
>knowledge and thought-process to you.
>Then the rest of the
>responsibility lies with you.
>
Agreed.
>>
>Human nature is a funny and
>tempting thing, and I have
>mentioned many other times, that
>sometimes what a reaction a
>person receives from others may
>and very well be is
>in part due to what
>he himself has dished out
>in the first place. In
>other words, if you begin
>with someone on an argumentative
>term, then perhaps what you
>receive is argumentative and accusing
>as well. It depends upon
>the outset to begin with.
>I try to curb my
>temper and the temptation to
>refute claims with anger and
>accusations...and sometimes it is difficult
>to do so.
>
I am often too argumentative. Just ask my wife. I understand. Forgive me if what I write is found offensive. It's not my intent. I accept your apologies made elswhere. Enough said.
>I will tell you frankly that
>a basic tenet of belief
>for a Muslim is the
>unconditional belief in the Revelations
>from God...all the revelations, and
>this as well is backed
>up by a particular verse
>from the Quran. However, in
>reference to today's Bible...I would
>like to ask you to
>direct your attention to several
>points. There are many contradictions
>within any one given version
>of the Bible. Why is
>that? These are major as
>well as minor contradictions...and on
>many varrying topics. If those
>previous scriptures (that which came
>before the Quran) were really
>still in tact as God
>revealed them, then how can
>it be that there has
>occured so many contradictions?
>
I think that you would find the same thing in the translations of the Qur'an in non-Arabic languages. My copy of the Qur'an is much more contemporary in the use of English than what y'all quote, so I'm sure their some other differences in style, without changing substance. I am not particularly impressed with this whole "contradiction" argument I see all over the place, and I don't think it's helpful to understanding each other if all we do is continually dig up contradictions for the other to respond to. I believe there are answers to the questions you have about the Bible. I also believe there are answers to questions I have about the Qur'an. Let's agree not to assume that the other person hasn't considered these apparent contradictions and approach each other with the assumption that the other can provide an answer to an obscurity, even if it takes some research by the one providing the answer.
>As muslims, we are commanded to
>believe in the scriptures, and
>therefore DO believe in the
>scriptures...but where are those scriptures?
>The original revelations? The unadultered
>revelations? The 'unrevised' Bible? It
>is nowhere in existence today...at
>least not within human reach.
>
This is a circular argument. The test of the authority of a text cannot be because the text says so, even if the text does say so. There has to be more that merits belief.
>
>As for your mention or belief
>that the NT teaches of
>the Trinity, that is another
>of the misconceptions and contradictions
>of the bible. For, you
>will also find within the
>NT mention, by Jesus (as
>is demonstrated within the quotes
>of the Bible)...that God is
>only one, and that Jesus
>did worship...whom did he worship?
>If he himself was in
>fact God-incarnate by having been
>the divine being in the
>form of a human...then why
>worship? and whom? If he
>himself(Jesus) was already God...a form
>of God, as is claimed
>by the doctrine of the
>trinity, then...who is left to
>worship? and why?
>
I have answered these questions elsewhere. Read my answers and let me know what part of what I wrote is still not clear.
>
>There is absolutely NO description of
>Christ in Islam to delude
>to him having divine qualities
>or being a deity or
>a having a partnership in
>the divinity, and as well
>... the trinity is completely
>and inadvertantly rejected.
>
That seems to be my reading of the Qur'an as well. And I disagree with it. So we're at an impass if the only test for truth is "The Qur'an says so".
>As I said...all that I have
>said is totally and definitely
>and without any confusion supported
>by evidences from the Quran.
>And I will be posting
>such verses in another post.
>This one is already too
>long, and getting rather confusing
>to keep up with.
>
Like I say, I can read the Qur'an myself, and am currently doing so. I need more than a quote form Mohammed to convince me that the Christ I experience in prayer is not Jesus of Nazareth risen form the dead, the self revelation of God, and one in being with the Father while remaining distinct in person.
>You have repeated the verse of
>direction in dealing with the
>people of the Book more
>than once...enforcing your standpoint and
>insinuation that I have mistreated
>some Christians or others here
>at these forums. If that
>is so, that I have
>mistreated without due cause some
>non-muslims, I truly apologize to
>any whom I may have
>insulted or angered, and even
>greater, I seek refuge with
>Allah from incuring His anger
>upon me by committing any
>sins.
>
Apology accepted. Enough said.
>However, let me also remind you...that
>at the time of the
>postings of Firefly and others(perhaps
>you have not yet read
>back that far in our
>discussions...I don't know)...there were some
>posts by some (cannot even
>remember now if Firefly was
>in fact among them, or
>if it was from others)...that
>were insulting to Muslim beliefs,
>and as well were in
>fact preaching Christianity. For one
>thing, human nature is kind
>of like a mirror...you receive
>much of the time what
>you give to others in
>the form of behavior. Anger
>and hate only serve to
>produce more anger and hate.
>As for my posting of
>the re-post of the '101
>Contradictions'...that was truly the most
>hated thing (to myself) to
>have done, even at the
>time. In fact, I truthfully
>pondered on whether or not
>to post it for days
>before actually going ahead to
>post it. It was only
>at the insistance of a
>particular non-muslim participant at these
>forums who was denying that
>there could even be one
>contradiction, much less seemingly countless.
>It was mainly in order
>to prove a point, as
>well as to perhaps open
>up some eyes and minds,
>and certainly not intended out
>of hate or contempt or
>disrespect to anyone.
>
I completely understand, and have probably been guilty myself. If not here, I've done it elsewhere in my life.
>I hope that this message has
>served to answer some of
>your questions. For the proper
>quotes and references, I will
>be making another post, inshaAllah.
>
>
>Om Mohammed.
Thanks! Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
LAST EDITED ON 17-10-01 AT 01:29 PM (GMT)[p]>Hello jcecil !
>
>
>Also, i want to ask a
>question from you. Do Christians
>believe that the Old Testament
>is God's word?
>
>Take care,
>Good Bye,
>Asif.
Asif--
Sorry I skipped over this question before. The simple answer is yes, Christians believe in the Old Testament as God's word.
This is not just my opinion. The Church declared Marcion a heretic for denying the inspiration of the Old Testament.
I do not want to get into too a detailed answer about how I, or my Church interprets the Old Testament, because I can anticipate that your next questions would be "Do you eat pork?" or "Do you believe in the wars of Joshua?" or something like that. I will try to outline some general principles below.
Before outlining these principles, I will repeat what I have elsewhere: I read the Bible daily. I have read the Old and New Testament in their entirety -- including the 7 Catholic books not found in the Protestant Bible. I read the Bible straight though 4 times. I studied in a Catholic seminary, though I am not a priest or deacon. I have completed 32 undergraduate and 72 graduate credits in theology, including classes in Biblical Greek and Latin. Yet, I am not a Ph.D. I have also studied a little Hebrew on my own (but I'm not real good at Hebrew yet).
I say this not out of pride, because I personally know dozens of people who know the Bible better than I do. Nor do I say this to say that I'm right and your wrong because I took such and such a class. My arguments should be convincing without appealing to my educational background. Nor do I tell you my background in order to make the claim that I personally know the answers to everything there is to know about the Bible. I don't.
My point in bringing up my education is because so many essays by the Muslims on this site begin by saying things like "If you Christians only read your Bible you'd see how many contradictions there are...."
I have read it -- and read it carefully! Yes, I have found apparent contradictions, but deeper study and prayer cleared up the contradictions in my mind. I have found that when I run across a question that I do not know how to answer, I can find an answer that makes sense and is defendible. If my study leads me to realize I am not following God's will, I will try to change my behavior and attitude. If I seem not to be following a particular precept that seems obvious to you, I more than likely have an explanaition.
I assume that you have done the same with the Qur'an, or you are in the process of doing this (we are all learning). This is why I do not like the approach that we Christians and Muslims use with each other where we just throw quotes out of context from the other's Scriptures hoping the other will finally admit there is a contradiction. Instead, we should ask one question at a time with the assumption that the other person is intelligent enough to give an understandable answer.
I believe that there are no contradictions on either side. While inconsistency is a sign of a lie, consistency is NOT the sole test for truth. A religion with over a billion followers (which is true of both Islam and Christianity) could not attract so many members if either one were irrational and inconsistent. We have to go deeper than the argument of consistency to get at why people follow a religion.
Now -- my principles of reading the Old Testament:
There is a surface level reading I do first -- just immersing myself in the story and letting the text move me as it may. I imagine myself as a character in the plot. I may jot down some notes. However, as I go deeper, especially with 'difficult' passages, I will ask the following:
1) I ask myself, when was this text composed and under what circumstances?
2) What experiences and events motivated the author to write?
3) Has the text been edited, and what motivated the editor?
4) What is the literary style and genre? What type of language is used?
5)To whom was the author trying to communicate? What about the editors?
6) Are there any signs of the history behind the text?
7) What was or were the author(s) trying to communicate? What were the values and principles at stake?
8) How do these values and principles fit into the context of the whole Bible?
9) Can more clear passages of Scripture help me understand the less clear? As a Christian, I interpret the Old Testament in light of the New Testament if I cannot resolve an apparent contradiction found in the Old....
10) How does the message emerging from all this prior study, prayer and reflection apply today? What is God saying to me now through the text I have received and studied?
Even after I ask all these questions, and researched answers, I find sometimes that there is more than one valid way to interpret the difficult texts. There are definitely wrong interpretations. However, there are cases where God allows us more than one possible alternative. That's OK -- and the same SHOULD be true of the Qur'an (and actually IS, whether you acknowledge it or not).
I've quoted a little rhyme elsewhere that I like from the Protestants: "The main things are in the plain, and the plain things are in the main." There are themes that are communicated strongly and repeatedly and consistently in every book of the Bible. Then there are the more difficult passages. Praise be to God that he usually gives us about 70 years to figure out the small stuff (or 80for those who are strong).
I've used this example elsewhere. If I write to an American in English, "It's raining cats and dogs." He is likely to know that I do not mean animals are falling out of the sky.
But if I say to an uneducated Latin immigrant from a village in El Slavador "Esta juviendo gatos y perros" he will think I'm saying that there are animals falling out of the sky.
What does Exodus mean when it says Moses saw a burning bush? Is it possible that a modern author describing the same experience might say that the lightbulb went off in his head? Imagine someone 3,000 years from now speaking another language but translating a reading that a light bulb went off in your head! I'm not really saying what I believe about the burning bush, but I think the question needs to be faced by any believer.
The ancient Jews tried believed they were "holy". The word they used meant "set apart". They tried to express their holiness through a restricted diet. They ate differently than their neigbors. They refused to eat foods from animals that seemed unnatural to them.
Thus, they avoided shellfish (fish that walk). They avoided ostriches (birds that don't fly). They avoided animals that had hooves but did not chew from the cud (pigs). They also avoided mixing dairy with meat because their neigbors had a practice of boiling a kid goat in its mother's milk (a particularly cruel and unnatural way to die). The Hebrew belief became that if you eat 'unnatural' things, you will become unnatural.
This diet may have also prevented trichinosis, and it's hard to say whether the diet arose originally from health concerns, or the improved health supported the theology behind the diet.
In the modern world, we have a hard time grasping how any part of God's creation could be unnatural. Jesus declared all foods clean. So God's word for us today about these dietary regulations MIGHT be to avoid artificial sweeteners and preservatives, and filling our bodies with chemicals. Just a suggestion....
Take the issue of war. The Hebrews fought in 'just wars'. Jesus says to turn the other cheek. It is intersting that Jesus did not say, "walk away". Instead, he asks to be like him -- take the punishment your enemy deserves upon yourself. Fullfill the laws of justice WHILE forgiving your enemy! A possible interpretation....
I could go on and on....But I promised I was just going to outline principles. Aiding me with these principles are the insights of theologians, as well as secular sciences of literary and historic criticism, philosophy, archeology, et...Ultimately, when faced with several possible and logical interpretations of Scripture, I turn to Sacred Tradition and the authority of the Pope and Bishops to decide the matter in my daily life. Thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a companion to my Bible. But,I find myself drifting into questions you haven't even really asked.
At any rate, I hope that I answered your original question. Yes. Christians believe in the Old Testament as the word of God. As a Church, we are stumbling along together taking serious the challenge to understand and apply those texts to our lives.
Peace and Blessings!
jcecil3
Good day to everyone.
It semms that the discussion about religion getting more interesting. Healthy discussion will make everyone opens the eyes about the truth.
I agree with you Jcecil about "Qur'an says so". What about Bible says so, or Torah says so? Definately very unfair. Let it be more on scientific logic support the claims.
When Brother Om questioned about "who does Jesus worship?". It is like in Islam about Shahadah. How would prophet Muhammad (SAW) said? Would he mention the word "Muhammad" or "myself"? Or he didn't say the way all muslims say today? Can it also be called as an alteration?
I myself still claim all scriptures were the truth depends on the interpretations of them. Guidelines in living is everything about knowledge exclude the knowledge of hurting or harming others phisically or emotionally. The true knowledge is the nature, the universe and everything that can be reached by human for human benefits.
Rituals as religious acts is just cultures. Punks, Hippies, Rappers and etc. have their rituals. Social organizations have rituals. Any groups of human sharing common interest have rituals. Is it fair to say certain rituals accepted by God and certain not? 5 pillars of Islam are forms of rituals. Sunday prayer for Christians also rituals. The method of praying also rituals. But, anything that we do, we do not harm no one and within respect of others, shouldn't be wrong in God's view.
This is the belief of logicist. I am an Islamic Logicist. Our reference is everything that supported by nature. The word God is Superhuman in positive manners. Superhuman in negative manners normally called devil. We do not need to prove where is God or devil because it is non of our business. God is in another way is "infinity".
When human is able to reach something, God is beyond that. For example "speed". 1000 years ago may be it is imposible to communicate the way we do today through internet. Maybe as imagination of religious people during that time, only God can do what we do today. And today, we believe what God can do is beyond what we can imagine to do.
If there is hereafter, would we be resurrected both with our body and soul? If just soul, would we remember what happen during our lives since all of our memory is in the brain? What happen to those handicapped? What happen to those who borrowed other peoples's part? What happen to those who senile? What happen to those who lost memory during the lives and living as different person than he/she was? How would that be counted as sins or merits?
Islam believes about interogation within the graves. Does this justified as God is the only the judge and judgement only will be held in hereafter?
From Logicist point of view, these are all fiction. These also show the contradiction in itself. I believe the original scripture of Torah, Zabur, Bible and Qur'an are all the same but after a while it will be distorted.
Today we don't have the original scriptures anymore or at least the original interpretation of the original scriptures. The only thing left for us is the nature. Nature never lie. Nature teaches us causes and consequences.
We can be better or worst by manipulating the nature. We can use the nature to help us and we can use the nature to destroy us. We all can be brothers by learning the natures. The knowledge from the nature is beyond the scriptures.
That's the truth.
Luque
(Islamic Logicist)
21st CENTURY GOD
By Kurt G Kawohl
Demystifying God
In this 21st Century, the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that may be a contributing cause of terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Belief in a God who causes catastrophes, punishes people and who created the universe out of nothing as if by magic, was brought about by hysteria and superstition. This thought process needs to be reassessed and brought up to date. Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this God was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era.
The destruction of civilizations, most sufferings and premature deaths are due to our frailties, our stupidity or human imperfections, not God's or the Devil's doings. The greatest fallacy is beliefs that split people, religions and countries. Too many lives have been lost in an illogical attempt to force our beliefs on others.
When people first acquired reasoning abilities, the first fear of an unseen deity came about when lightning and thunder caused them to cringe and seek shelter. Lightning and thunder were thought to be punishment from God for evil deeds. Worshipping God through prayers and asking for forgiveness eventually, as the storm passed, was believed to appease the wrath of God or the Gods.
Prophets of past who claimed to have a personal contact with God, had been inspired by God, thereby interpreting this ecstasy to the best of their ability; and applying this wisdom to a time when it was believed that a holy man had to have direct contact with God; today we know that interactions between dimensions is not a reality. This God will not strike you dead with a lightning bolt or condemn you to eternal hell fire and damnation if you do not follow the teachings of your fathers or spiritual leaders, or pray to him constantly. This was a war-like god. He was as necessary at that time as every king, dictator, war lord, and tribal leader who fought and died by the sword. The God of Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus and other Prophets, is the same as the God of today. God will not interfere with anything that is done on earth.
Creation or Evolution ?
Creation and evolution work in unison. The former can not survive without the latter. If a man and woman desire a child, they set into motion processes of creation and evolution. The bible states, "If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, `Move from here to there, and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you." As long as this is not taken literally, it is indeed a true statement.
If a city Master Plan calls for a mountain to be relocated, it will be done. Were the planners, designers, architects, contractors, or the laborers responsible for the finished product? If God, via inspiration initiates a process, or causes currents or a meteorite to carry a seed to a distant planet to be germinated; to create and have life evolve thereby, is not God creating life and responsible for evolution? If life is created and it does not evolve, it perishes.
Is the Bible The Word Of God ?
The Bible refers to God as representing a masculine anthropomorphic figure; as the king-like ruler who demands that everyone worship him and unquestionably do his biddings through eternity. In this 21st Century many religious beliefs are as antiquated as in millenniums past. Most stories in the Bible were passed down verbally through generations, with new additions by each generation. In past centuries superstitions were the norm. Isn't it about time that a belief in God, if one so chooses, makes sense.
The books of the were written over a period of about 1500 years by about 40 different authors on three continents in three languages. The first 5 books, written by Moses about 1410 BC were accepted as authoritative by the people that initially received them. Transmission refers to the process of getting something written up to 3500 years ago to us. During transmission the documents are copied and errors are introduced. Some, who reject the truth of the bible argue that there errors are so many and so large that the bible is unreliable. Others, who accept the truth of the bible argue that the errors and alterations by copyists only slightly if at all diminish the reliability of the bible.
The God of Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus and other Prophets, is the same as the God of today who wants all souls to co-exist in peace and tranquility for eternity. Now our perceptions of God may vary. Today, we can receive inspiration without intermediaries.
Did God ever, and will he ever in the future, interfere with anything that happens on this earth, or is God and the Devil being blamed for our problems and bad decisions ?
God never did and never will interfere with anything that is done on earth. God will not breach the spiritual realm. We no longer need to fear God or Allah, endlessly worship him, dress or look a certain way; all to please a God who is not as we have been told to accept, without having to fear facing his wrath of eternal damnation ?
Our intelligence compared to God is like that of a 2 year old child. God will make allowances for our ignorance.
It doesn't matter to God whether we believe that God is/was:
1. Created by the spirit and soul and evolved to be the supreme intelligence.
2. The beginning, always was, came out of nowhere and created the heavens and earth.
3 The one supreme ruler who dominates the universe.
4. Called God, God Almighty, Jehovah, God of Abraham, Allah or whatever.
It doesn't matter to God whether we:
1. Think that Jesus is God or a prophet.
2. Believe that the Bible or the Koran is the word of God or man.
3. Eat pork, dress or pray a certain way.
Who Really Is God ?
God, also known as Allah, Yahweh, Lord, Supreme Being, Jehovah, etc., is a spirit of peace. When the body dies, the deserving soul is received by God into a peaceful co-existence with other souls for eternity. The souls of Prophets, philosophers, holy men, our deceased relatives and even the simplest souls who by their love of humanity and exemplary living, have helped to shape the lives of others, will be there.
Today, we can receive inspiration without intermediaries. Just as radio frequencies are transmitted through space, requiring a transmitter and a receiver, we can receive the blessings of God to guide our daily lives.
God is a loving, peaceful coexistence of spiritual souls, including ours ? In order to be in harmony with others, one has to have synchronization of thought. This requires complete understanding and tolerance of other beliefs, regardless of our own.
Our spirit can often control the well-being of our body. With inspiration from God's Spirit, our spirit, very much like the wind, can carry us through our life's journey and experience the beauty of God's creative powers or we can choose to reject the interaction and muddle through life with no purpose, feeling empty, worthless and lonely. We can resonate despondency and gloom or bloom like the wildflower, bringing joy to many who have contact with us and live our lives with joy and the knowledge that we have a reason for living.
Where Did God Come From ?
God exists in a spiritual dimension and is a union of souls which was created when the first reasoning entity ceased its existence (physical death) in this dimension and entered the spiritual realm. (invisibility)
God's intelligence is ever expanding and grows with the addition of each soul. Every soul is like a separate cell or atom on earth which combines with other cells or atoms to make up the existence of every living person, plant, animal and even the air which sustains all life; so also do souls perform, either individually or in unison. Any soul or spirit that is not with God can not exist, and dies.
Everything evolves or stagnates and dies.
Souls perform individually or cumulatively in the same way as entities in this dimension. Souls are a part of God as we are a part of this earth.
Collective intelligence (God)
God, existing in a spiritual dimension, is cumulative and progressive rather than constant. Project yourself into a scenario whereupon, after your spirit has established a communication link with the Spirit of God, upon your physical demise, all the data that your spirit has accumulated and stored (your soul) is transmitted and received by a database into a spiritual dimension which contains any and all of the knowledge and experiences of the universe. You are now a part of God.
The first reasoning entity was a derivative of our earth, solar system or universe.
Does life exist somewhere else in the universe? Today, over 70 planets are known outside our solar system. There are billions of stars with numerous solar systems. Our knowledge of the universe is in its infancy.
Within the last 200 years air travel, the automobile, telephone, radio, television, computer, electricity, etc., came into existence. Place yourself into a scenario whereby you are on earth several thousand years from now; our present day thinking would be considered antiquated. Would space travel to the next closest solar system be a reality? With our present mode of travel it would take several thousand years.
Is there evidence that God exists ?
Evidence is proof, something that shows what is true. Truth is established by testifying, bearing witness, attesting, declaring under oath that what is testified to, is actuality. In a court of law, as in civil action, evidence is presented and the validity of this evidence is assessed by a judge or jury who rule on it; their decision is accepted and it is determined that proof has been established by a preponderance of the evidence.
Throughout several millenniums evidence has been presented that the Spirit of God has interacted with our spirit via inspiration, to write what are considered Holy Scriptures and to be the cause of miraculous healings, many physicians will attest to the latter. This is evidence, proof of the existence of God.
Evidence of God's existence can also be seen in the compilation and complexities of everything in existence, from the complex DNA makeup of a single cell, to the makeup of the entire universe. To refute this evidence by saying that all is possible without supreme guidance is to ignore proof.
The power of the wind is a small comparison to the power of God's Spirit. The wind can gently caress as it wafts across the land, stirring wildflowers, thereby causing their seeds or pollen to be carried along currents to pollinate another, creating a new life. The wind can also be a force that is unequaled by any other. We can not see the wind. We can not see or physically talk with God, but our spirit can unite and be guided by God's Spirit to accomplish the seemingly impossible.
What Will The Soul Do In Eternity ?
Our life on earth is to prepare us and to give us examples of the hereafter. Everything is progressive and accumulative. We are here to accumulate experiences of feelings, the beauty of every organism that surrounds us, the landscape that adds to our perception; then we can begin our next journey.
We should live our life to its fullest. One hundred years from now, almost every single person alive today will have died. Several billion people, wiped off the face of this earth. Our life is but a blip on the radar screen of time. We are the most important person responsible for whether our soul will live or die. Here we have to learn how to intertwine with a community; there we can experience anything that the imagination can perceive.
Envision yourself as a spirit that is uninhibited by any resistance or external influences; you can travel to any star or planet instantly, explore the beauty of the universe, and still be in sync with God. As an example: Imagine the most advanced form of Virtual Reality that can access a super-computer and place you in whichever setting you desire; you can play with the animals, be with your loved ones, listen to the greatest opera, stage or musical performances, or simply relax next to a bubbling brook and enjoy the scenery. You feel no pain, despair, heartache, or negative emotions unless you so desire.
How does one's soul gets the right to enter eternity. How would you ever know for sure?
A oneness with the Spirit of God, by your deeds (contrary to some biblical teachings) during your lifetime, will determine your soul's destiny. Also, if you deed (pledge, give, transfer) your soul to God, you will know, as you know that God exists, that your soul will be a part of God.
One of our main purposes in life is to prepare our soul to be received by God. If one's spirit is not communicating with the Spirit of God, to them God does not exist because they can not receive evidence to the contrary; they are in incapable of comprehending spiritual reality. Spiritual beings know that they are part of God's Master Plan, as is the universe. Anything that does not evolve, dies.
What Is God Going To Do With All The Sinners ?
Any soul that is not with God can not exist and dies.
Our sins will be overlooked and forgiven, like parents dismiss and forgive their child's transgressions. Any punishment is immediate, without a grudge being retained. God will not interfere with your life on earth or physically harm or punish anyone. The same way a parent makes a child aware when the child has committed a wrong act, the conscience will weigh on the spirit and one with a conscience will be repentant; that is the extent of the punishment. When evil deeds are constant, the conscience gets anesthetized and no longer communicates with the spirit; upon physical death, the spirit dies also.
Sins were invented by people in order to frighten the masses to conform to standards set by people. If our laws are not obeyed, punishment will be by the appropriate government agency. God will not punish sinners here or hereafter.
God Does Not Need Our Prayers
Prayers are for our benefit. We need to pray for guidance to comprehend the purpose of our existence. Through prayers and meditation, inspiration peace and tranquility can be received by our spirit. Harmony with God requires the spirit to be at peace. Our prayers should ask for inspiration and guidance from God to enlighten us and transform our daily lives by being honest, humble, grateful, full of love and good works. Churches, mosques, temples and gathering places help our spirit to rejoice and come closer to the unity and peace of God.
A person afflicted by bodily sufferings can at times be closer to God than one who is in daily turmoil and obsessed with acquiring and hoarding wealth for himself, rather than sharing and making life bearable for the needy. Our only purpose in life is to expand our knowledge and to strive for a peaceful co-existence with an inspirational guidance from God; so as to co-exist with our spiritual partners in harmony through eternity.
Our earth is just a miniscule place in the vast expanse of the universe. God is the supreme intelligence that will guide us by inspiration; the building of other life forms of this universe. Ecstasy cannot aptly describe a soul’s participation in this great undertaking. All our questions will be answered because God is like the storage of all knowledge that can be tapped by every soul and still operate in unison.
Drugs, alcohol or any substance which interferes with, or suppresses the spirit and retards our clear thinking should be avoided. The spirit will rejoice and grow stronger through our appreciation of the beauty of nature, music, song and art. A stronger spirit is closer to God and inspirations from God will guide and heal the mind and soul.
Preachers and Holy Men have been given the responsibility to educate a new generation of minds of the complete truth and to teach tolerance of other religions and other interpretations of God, not just as you perceive the truth or God to be.
Was the spiritual realm where God exists in another dimension ever breached by a man named Jesus ? Was Jesus the son of God, or a prophet and the son of a man ?
Will they who believe that Jesus was a prophet rather than the only son of God be condemned ? Are we not, as according to the bible, children of God, therefore as children, we are also a son or a daughter of God. If Jesus were born now would people believe that he was God ?
Jesus has been appropriately called the "Son of God" and "Prince of Peace". We are often reminded of the teachings of Jesus whose words have survived two millenniums. His disciples kept him alive in the memories of all who heard and believed his words. They, as well as other "Men of God" who contributed to the compilation of the scriptures of the Bible, were inspired by God to give us guidelines to live by.
Christianity states that there is only one straight and narrow road that leads to God. This is incorrect. All roads which lead to God can bring the soul to its destination. The roads may be curved and circular at times, but if one chooses one's objective and abides thereby, the goal will be achieved.
There is a song which should be our daily inspiration. It says, "Open up your heart and let the sun shine in". Judge not lest ye be judged.
Jesus - Died about 30 A.D.. Mark's Gospel presents Jesus as a perfectly normal man with brothers and sisters. Luke's Gospel suggests that Jesus and John The Babtist were actually related. Jesus' teachings stressed love, charity and peace. After his death Jesus' disciples believed that Jesus presented an image of God and began to pray to him. St. Paul believed that God's powers should be made accessible to the goyim (gentiles, non-Jews) and preached the Gospel of Jesus to them. Paul never called Jesus "God". He called him "the Son of God" in its Jewish sense; he did not preach that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself but that he possessed God's "powers" and "Spirit" which manifested God's activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence. Paul created Christianity by referring to Jesus as Christ which was a translation of the Hebrew "Messiach". This doctrine was scandalized by Jews and later the Muslims who found it blasphemous.
The doctrine that Jesus was divine and that Jesus had been God in human form was not finalized until the fourth century.
The Dead Sea Scrolls offer unprecedented information about Jewish religious and political life in Palestine during the turbulent late Second Temple Period (200 B.C. to A.D. 70), a time of great corruption and conflict under Roman rule in Palestine. Scholars estimate that the Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden in A.D. 68, when Roman legions reached the Dead Sea during the emperor Vespasian's campaign to Jericho.
The scrolls also shed light on the time when Jesus and John the Baptist lived and early Christians began to organize. Specifically, they offer evidence that early Christian beliefs and practices had precedents in the Jewish sects of the time. Sectarian scrolls tell of people who, like the early Christians, did not believe in the Temple worship of the Pharisees, people who had their own literature, their own rituals-including baptism-and their own beliefs, most significantly beliefs in a messiah, a divine judgment, and an apocalypse. Three different scrolls depict a sacred meal of bread and wine. These similarities as well as parallels between the literary style of certain scrolls and that of the New Testament have led some scholars to claim that Jesus and John the Baptist were either part of or strongly influenced by a sect at the Dead Sea.
Debate has furthered speculation about the historical Jesus, such as the claim that he was a Zealot rather than a pacifist, a theory that does not fit with New Testament tradition but does fit with the history of this period. And one of the most important discoveries in the scrolls has been the use of the name Son of God to refer to someone other than Jesus, implying a cultural use of the term that was not itself synonymous with God.
How do we know that the spirit exists ?
Many of our experiences here are as an example of spiritual life. A child until about the age of 2 is receptive to and believes all that he hears, observes, and is told. This is the most influential period and will greatly shape the remainder of his life; all information is stored with the subconscious. After age 2 independence is exercised and rebellion is the next step. Many teenagers begin to doubt their parents judgment and usually a young adult in his twenties moves away from home. Some will no longer keep in touch with or communicate with the parent. The spirit will also at interval periods sever the line of communication and at times communication with the Spirit of God will cease entirely.
Being with spirit; unless one is completely emotionless, a spirit is present. One may say that emotions are psychological, (of the psyche) structuralism, psychobiological, but they are nevertheless spiritual; which also subscribes to a form of natural selection. Every person is born with a spirit. The spirit is a part of the mother's spirit which is passed down to the fetus. Your conscience relays information to your spirit. Some people may not believe in a spirit because they can not see it but, whether one believes it or not, every person has a spirit. If one's spirit is not communicating with the Spirit of God, to them God does not exist.
The soul and spirit are often considered identical, though the soul has also been referred to as the vessel for the spirit. When the bible refers to talking animals, the originator of that story in all probability was telling it to children, or meant it to be an analogy. Animals do not possess reasoning abilities or souls.
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Is there evidence that God exists ?
Evidence is proof, something that shows what is true. Truth is established by testifying, bearing witness, attesting, declaring under oath that what is testified to, is actuality. In a court of law, as in civil action, evidence is presented and the validity of this evidence is assessed by a judge or jury who rule on it; their decision is accepted and it is determined that proof has been established by a preponderance of the evidence.
Throughout several millenniums evidence has been presented that the Spirit of God has interacted with our spirit via inspiration, to write what are considered Holy Scriptures and to be the cause of miraculous healings, many physicians will attest to the latter. This is evidence, proof of the existence of God.
Evidence of God's existence can also be seen in the compilation and complexities of everything in existence, from the complex DNA makeup of a single cell, to the makeup of the entire universe. To refute this evidence by saying that all is possible without supreme guidance is to ignore proof.
The power of the wind is a small comparison to the power of God's Spirit. The wind can gently caress as it wafts across the land, stirring wildflowers, thereby causing their seeds or pollen to be carried along currents to pollinate another, creating a new life. The wind can also be a force that is unequaled by any other. We can not see the wind. We can not see or physically talk with God, but our spirit can unite and be guided by God's Spirit to accomplish the seemingly impossible.
Artificial Intelligence
Computers in some cases are considered Thinking Machines and are also considered Artificial Intelligence, but they are unable to transfer their intelligence to the spirit or soul. Only the spirit or soul can transgress our dimension in order to transmit its contents.
Artificial Intelligence development, even though it is astounding, is still in its infancy, just as is our understanding of God. Currently no Artificial Intelligence has as yet been able to simulate total human behavior.
Buddhism and Hinduism
Buddhism and Hinduism is a devotion to exalted beings. After the Buddha died at about 5oo B.C. people attempted to reach nirvana, by achieving enlightenment, on their own. During the first century B.C. claims were made that the Buddha had reappeared in human form and statues appeared in India. As in Christianity and Hinduism, there was a yearning for humanized religion and it was thereby integrated into religion.
Religious Diversity when it breeds fanaticism is a dangerous combination.
In U.S.A. there are more than 1500 religious denomination and faith groups,including 900 Christian, 100 Hindu and 75 Buddhist denominations.
The Crusades (1095 -1398) were a series of Christian military expeditions to reclaim the Holy Land from the Muslims. Muslims were considered infidels and a threat to Christianity in the East and the "peace of God" at home. Preachers of the crusade pleaded for all to participate in this holy cause, whether rich or poor, experienced in the military or not. With the cry "Deus Vult!" ("God wills it!") Christians slaughtered Muslims everywhere they went. The fighting was fierce, but the unsuspecting Muslims were no match for the bloodthirsty Crusaders, who killed not only fighting men, but also women and children.
God's way of creating life is beyond the intellectual capacity of man.
Many past theories are presently being reevaluated. The first US patent for a psychokinesis effect was granted to Princeton University researchers on November 3, 1998. Patent "US 5830064" is entitled: Apparatus and method for distinguishing events which collectively exceed chance expectations and thereby controlling an output. This patent specifically covers distant mental control of electronic random number generator outputs.
Starting in the 1980s, well-known scientific journals like Foundations of Physics, American Psychologist, and Statistical Science published articles favorably reviewing the scientific evidence for psychic phenomena. The Proceedings of the IEEE, the flagship journal of the Institute for Electronic and Electrical Engineers, has published major debates on psi research. Invited articles have appeared in the prestigious journal, Brain and Behavioral Sciences. A favorable article on telepathy research appeared in 1994 in Psychological Bulletin, one of the top-ranked journals in academic psychology. An article presenting a theoretical model for precognition appeared in 1994 in Physical Review, a prominent physics journal.
On 1-8-2002 NASA announced a new interpretation of the dawn of cosmic light; this conflicts with the Big-Bang Theory time period. The Hubble images of deep space, close to the beginning of time indicate that at beginning of time, galaxy formation started early and rapidly; not at once, but in only a few million years.
Pascal's Theory or wager was that God is not known through reason but through the heart and that faith is a better guide than reason. I submit that there is sufficient evidence and that by applying intelligent reasoning, one has to come to the conclusion of the probability of God's existence.
Sufficient evidence shown by telepathy, psychokinesis, psychic phenomena, miraculous healings and inspirations also indicates that collective intelligence, (God) existing in a spiritual dimension, is cumulative and progressive rather than constant.
When evidence has been presented , not everyone is convinced as to its validity. The majority decision prevails on evaluating evidence in a civil court trial. If one understands or incorrectly evaluates the evidence that was presented, that is indeed a problem.
I believe that a majority of people believe in God, they do not have to be religious; someone living in the jungle may not have heard of God, yet have their own enlightenment.
One's spirit has to open lines of communication with the Spirit of God in order to receive inspiration from God. This is the only way whereby one will "SEE THE LIGHT".
Cosmological constant was a term introduced by Einstein into his field equations of general relativity to permit a stationary, nonexpanding universe: it has since been abandoned in most models of the universe
In recent years, we have learned that 95% of the Universe is made of a type of matter or energy that we cannot see nor understand. Gravity may ripple across the Universe in waves, and certain cosmic rays, atomic particles moving at near light speed, possess an energy far greater than that which can be explained by modern physics.
Duplicating the harsh conditions of cold interstellar space in their laboratory, NASA scientists have created primitive cells that mimic the membranous structures found in all living things. These chemical compounds may have played a part in the origin of life.
This breakthrough by scientists at NASA Ames Research Center in California's Silicon Valley is important because some scientists believe that the delivery - by comets, meteorites and interplanetary dust - of similar organic compounds born in interstellar space might have "kick-started" life on Earth.
"Scientists believe the molecules needed to make a cell's membrane, and thus for the origin of life, are all over space. This discovery implies that life could be everywhere in the universe," said Dr. Louis Allamandola, the team's leader.
In contrast to current thinking, this new work shows that the early chemical steps believed to be important for the origin of life do not require an already-formed planet. Instead, they seem to take place in deep space long before planet formation occurs. This implies that the vastness of space is filled with chemical compounds which, if they land in a hospitable environment like our Earth, can readily jump-start life.
Some people quote the Bible as the gospel truth of God's words. Does that mean that they who use the Koran or other holy scriptures that were inspired by God are misguided ?
One of our apparent reasons for being here is, in order to justify our beliefs even to ourselves, that we apply logic to our beliefs rather than blindly accept everything that we have read and been told.
Muhammad who lived during a turbulent time of history, was the cause for the writings in the Koran. The goal of all of these "Men of God", who devoted most of their lives to preaching of God, was to help us to fashion our lives to be at peace with the Holy Spirit of God.
ALL religions have the same goals and is up to us to love and to unify, rather than disagree with or judge, other beliefs.
The orthodox Muslim view of the Koran as self-evidently the Word of God, perfect and inimitable in message, language, style, and form, is strikingly similar to the fundamentalist Christian notion of the Bible's "inerrancy" and "verbal inspiration" that is still common in many places today.
Not all the Christians think this way about the Bible, however, and in fact, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam (1981) points out, "the closest analogue in Christian belief to the role of the Kur'an in Muslim belief is not the Bible, but Christ." If Christ is the Word of God made flesh, the Koran is the Word of God made text, and questioning its sanctity or authority is thus considered an outright attack on Islam -- as Salman Rushdie knows all too well.
In 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a, in Yemen, laborers working in a loft between the structure's inner and outer roofs stumbled across an unappealing mash of old parchment and paper documents -- damaged books and individual pages of Arabic text, fused together by centuries of rain and dampness, gnawed into over the years by rats and insects. Intent on completing the task at hand, the laborers gathered up the manuscripts, pressed them into some twenty potato sacks.
Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.
The mainly secular effort to reinterpret the Koran -- in part based on textual evidence such as that provided by the Yemeni fragments -- is disturbing and offensive to many Muslims, just as attempts to reinterpret the Bible and the life of Jesus are disturbing and offensive to many conservative Christians. Nevertheless, there are scholars, Muslims among them, who feel that such an effort, which amounts essentially to placing the Koran in history, will provide fuel for an Islamic revival of sorts -- a reappropriation of tradition, a going forward by looking back. Thus far confined to scholarly argument, this sort of thinking can be nonetheless very powerful and -- as the histories of the Renaissance and the Reformation demonstrate -- can lead to major social change. The Koran, after all, is currently the world's most ideologically influential text.
Martyrs, who by their actions, cause the death of others and cause another soul to die before that soul has had the opportunity to be at peace with the Spirit of God, will not achieve their goals of ultimately being with God.
About The Author
My belief originated in 1956 when I was 15 years old. I had double pneumonia and I thought that I would surely die. I was born in Lithuania in 1941 and my family had to flee to Germany in 1945 when Russia occupied our homeland. In 1950 we immigrated to America. When I became ill in 1956 my father took me to a doctor who gave me a penicillin injection and recommended immediate hospitalization. We had no medical insurance or money, so my father took me home to recuperate. I remember the drive home vividly. Every breath was extremely painful and my chest felt as though a great weight was upon it. I watched cars and trucks drive by and I wondered how people could make long term plans when life was so unpredictable. At home I read the bible every waking moment and prayed to God to save my soul.
Several nights later, whether in a dream, by inspiration, fever induced fantasy, or some unexplainable reason, I was in a place with a gathering of spirits. I felt the greatest peace, tranquility and ecstasy. I felt a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone; all the prophets of the bible, many historical people whom I had read about, many deceased acquaintances and relatives. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought was interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out before us like a vast expanse with spirits engaged in mental interaction like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.
My father was a Lutheran Preacher who believed that anyone who disagreed with his belief was wrong and would not go to heaven. At age 16, I remember questioned this and told him, "Dad, if you believe that everyone who differs with you will not go to heaven, you will be mighty lonely up there all by yourself".
I apologize for subjecting many who read my posting to lengthy dialogue and hereby summarize it. Those who question it, please reread the entire text and then your critiques are welcome.
Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled God for past millenniums as one who interferes with the natural forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who disobey his bidding.
God is the Pure Collective Intelligence Of Souls existing in a spiritual realm and does not interfere with anything on earth or in the universe.
Kkawohl-- I will keep this short. What is your proof of this assertion?
This thread has gone from one topic to another. I will be forced to lock this thread as there are too many replies and it has strayed off the main points raised in the first post. Thankyou for your co-operation and keep discussing.
Sadiq!
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"Oh Allah, enrich me with knowledge, adorn me with gentleness, honour me with piety and beautify me with health", Aameen
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