Who is the Father of Jesus (pbuh)?

[seekeroftruth]

Dated: 13 February 2001
Written by: Moiz Amjad

Article: Who is the Father of Jesus (pbuh)?


In one of his articles[1] Mr. Jochen Katz writes:

Is Jesus the son of Allah? The Qur'an says no. Yet it is also entirely consistent with the Qur'an to consider Allah the Father of Jesus for the following reasons:

Allah caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus;
Allah determined some of the physical characteristics of Jesus;
All of the genetic characteristics of Jesus were determined by just two parties: Allah and Mary.
These three points taken together, in the eyes of Mr. Katz, makes it consistent with the Qur'an to take God to be Jesus' (pbuh) father. However, in view of the strong rejection of the Qur'an of the idea that God has begotten a son, it results in a contradiction.

What Mr. Katz seems to have ignored are the stipulations of the Qur'an, which clearly point to the fact that:

It is God, Who causes conception of a child in the wombs of all such women, who conceive[2];
It is God alone, Who determines the physical characteristics of all the children that are born in the world[3]; and
As in the case of Jesus (pbuh), it is God alone (not Mary), Who determines all characteristics of all children that are born[4].
Seen in the perspective of these stipulations of the Qur'an, there is no reason why Jesus (pbuh), on the basis of the three reasons cited by Mr. Katz, should be considered a 'son' of God. Jesus (pbuh) is indeed God's creation, just as all other human beings are.

The ultimate reason, on the basis of which, Mr. Katz wants to establish that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of God, as given in the Qur'an, is that Jesus (pbuh) was born without a physical father, through the direct intervention of God. However, even such a situation, according to the Qur'an, does not make anyone a physical progeny of God.

We know that the general rule applicable to the birth of a child, during the life of this world, is the physical copulation of a male and a female. This is precisely how God has planned the continuation of life on earth. However, this does not mean that God is bound by this 'general' rule. On the contrary, God CAN bring a living being into existence, even where all the generally required prerequisites of such generation of life are lacking. For instance, if God so decides, He CAN bring life into existence even where any one or both of the prerequisite factors are lacking. Thus, even though Adam (pbuh) was born without either a mother or a father, through the direct intervention of God, it does not make God the 'mother' as well as the 'father' of Adam; Even though John[5] (pbuh) was born to parents who were both originally unable to conceive a child[6], through the direct intervention of God, yet it does not make John (pbuh) the progeny of God, brought into existence through a surrogate mother/father. Similarly, the mere fact that Jesus (pbuh) was conceived without a physical father, does not, by itself, imply that God has to be given the status of Jesus' (pbuh) father. God is the Creator of Jesus (pbuh) just as He is the Creator of all living things that have breathed His air.

Mr. Katz writes:

A Muslim might argue: "Being a father implies having sex", and, therefore, Allah cannot be the father. No. Modern science has brought us "test tube babies", which are conceived without any sex. There is nothing to support the idea that if Allah wants a baby, he must resort to normal human means to have one.

This is not a very precise representation of the Muslim mind. Muslims do not say that "If God WANTED a 'baby', he would then HAVE to resort the normal procedure of copulation". On the contrary, a Muslim mind, on the basis of the Qur'an, holds that God never WANTED to have a baby.

Mr. Katz writes:

Again, a Muslim may say that if we are going to call Jesus the son of Allah, then we should say that Adam is the son of Allah too. No, because Adam popped into existence without a mother. We cannot compare Adam to Jesus this way.

If the absence of a human father makes Jesus (pbuh) the son of God, then why does Adam (pbuh) - in the absence of both a mother as well as a father - not become more qualified to be a called a 'son' of God. In other words, if God could bring Adam (pbuh) into existence without either of the two parents, and yet not be called the ' mother' as well as the 'father' of Adam, then why could He not bring Jesus (pbuh) into existence, without a father and yet not be called his 'father'?

Mr. Katz writes:

When Allah said "Be", did he have something specific in mind? Certainly! Allah had a very detailed plan in mind for Jesus.

All of God's decision are based on planning. Thus, obviously when God initiated the process of the birth of Jesus (pbuh) through the word 'Be', He did have something specific in mind. However, according to the Qur'an and according to the Muslim understanding this does not make Jesus (pbuh) the 'son' of God.

Mr. Katz writes:

In particular, Allah decided that Jesus would be male. Normally, it is the sperm that decides the gender of the baby. Here Allah made the choice instead.

According to the Qur'an[7], it is God who decides the gender of every child that is to be born. In fact, the way the male sperm interacts with the female egg, resulting in the child's being male or female, is all according to the decisions of God, which always precedes such interaction of the sperm and the egg. This, however, does not make God the father of every child that is born.

Mr. Katz writes:

All of the genetic characteristics of Jesus were determined by precisely two parties: Allah and Mary.

This is clear because they were the only two parties involved. So we conclude that Allah and Mary are the only two possible candidates for the title "Father".

The problem is that even if God is the only possible candidate, Who can be called a 'father' of Jesus (pbuh), according to the Qur'an, He actually is not. It is precisely for this reason that the Muslims believe that Jesus (pbuh) did not have a father (because the only possible candidate refuses to be called a 'Father' to Jesus). If this is inconsistency in the eyes of Mr. Katz, then humankind has remained guilty of this inconsistency, throughout its history, because:

All of the characteristics of Adam (pbuh) were determined by one party alone: God.

This is clear because He was the only party involved in Adam's birth. So we conclude that God is the only possible candidate for the title "Father" as well as "Mother" for Adam. Yet, because He has, Himself, refused to be called by either of the two, therefore, He is neither.

Mr. Katz writes:

Hence it appears legitimate to call Allah the father of Jesus, at least in a figurative sense. Therefore we are at a loss to explain why the Qur'an spends so much space arguing against this.

For a Muslim, it is not a matter of appearing legitimate or not, on the contrary, it is a matter of what God has directed and what God wants us to say and believe. Thus, because of the strong denial of the Qur'an, the Muslims, contrary to the Christians, are not willing to ascribe a son, even in a figurative sense, to God.

Mr. Katz writes:

Certainly more and better justification is needed than what appears in these passages:

Surely they lie when they declare: "Allah has begotten children".-- Sura 37:151

Where is the "lie" in our reasoning above?

The 'lie', as should be clear from the foregoing arguments is in baselessly ascribing a son to God. When God has clearly declared that He has not begotten a son, then all those, who still ascribe a son to God, are only forging a lie against God.

Mr. Katz writes:

So is Allah unable to beget a son by saying "Be"?

It is not for me to decide about the 'inabilities' of God. The Qur'an has only declared that God DID NOT take for Himself a child. After all, why would Mr. Katz like God to take a child for Himself? He neither needs nor wants a child. I would request Mr. Katz to explain why, in his opinion, SHOULD God take for Himself a child.

Say: "If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him". -- Sura 43:82

We would prefer something more convincing from the Qu'ran than this.

This is, predictably, quite understandable.

[jcecil3]

LAST EDITED ON 02-11-01 AT 02:15 PM (GMT)[p]Peace Seekeroftruth.

I completely agree with Moiz Amjed's argument against Jochen Katz. It would appear that Mr. Katz completely misunderstands the Qur'an's objection and use of the word "son" in reference to Allah.

As a Christian, I also disagree with the view represented by Jochen Katz as presented above based on Christian interpretations of the Sonship of the Lord, Jesus. Thus, I argue against this person claiming to be Christian based on Christian arguments. But my arguments may also raise questions for Muslims, and I am open to further discussion.

The Bible refers to many people as sons of God, including Adam (see Luke 3:38). However, the Bible designates Jesus with a slightly different title. He is the "only Son" (Greek = monogeneses theos, see John 1:14, 1:18, 3:16, etc...) Some ancient versions have the word translated as "begotten", which is the word used in the Nicene creed, and is an accurate translation of the root word "geneses". In other words, the Bible, and Christian theology refer to Jesus as Son in a different sense than Adam, or Ezra, or any other righteous person.

From a theological perspective, we do not believe that Jesus is God's son BECAUSE he was born of a virgin with no human Father. As Islam points out, the issue of having no human father could be said of Adam. Jesus is not the Son of God BECAUSE he was born of a virgin. Rather he was born of a virgin because he is the unique "Son of God".

The term "Son of God" (monogeneses theos) is meant to designate the second person of the Trinity, the "Logos" (The Word), from the Father. We speak of the Son being "begotten" of the Father not in a biological sense. Rather, the Logos is "begotten" of the Father in the sense of generating, proceeding or spirating eternally from the Father. Saint Augustine used the analogy of a thinker thinking a thought. In the analogy, the Father is the thinker, and Christ is his own thought. Other saints have used the anology of light and heat in a flame. Thus, the Logos emmanates in a sense from the Father, but is one in being, essence, or nature with the Father. Furthermore, this Sonship is from an eternal perspective, where time and space have no meaning.

In his humanity, Christ was born of a woman, and when we refer to Mary as the "Mother of God", we are not saying that Mary is divine. Mary is a creature like us. The Logos derives nothing of the nature of Mary, for the Logos is uncreated, while she is created. Christ is born of a woman in his humanity, but begotten of the Father in his divinity. Note the difference in the use of "born", verses "begotten". Mary as "Mother of God" is a term used to affirm the divinity of Christ. The Logos is eternal and transcends time. From the eternal perspective, Christ pre-exists his birth even in his resurrection. Christ is present at the creation of the world, and it was for him, in him, through him, with him and by him that the world is made.

In his humanity, Christ is a divine nature and a human nature simultaneously. Christ had a human will and a divine will. To understand a little better, we experience an "unconscious" or "pre-conscious" knowledge. For example, when we cannot recall a person's name without pondering for awhile -- the knowledge is in our mind, but not fully accesible. So too, it may be that Jesus' human nature and will experienced finite knowledge which could not fully access his divine omniscience. For example, he did not know when the world would end, and the author of Luke's gospel affirms that he grew in knowledge and wisdom (see Luke 2:40).

In his humanity, he was born of a woman, ate, slept, grew tired, felt just anger, cried, suffered and died. He was even tempted, though he never sinned. He is the divine as human, and the human as divine. God became human that humanity might share in divine life. Through a personal relationship with him, we share in the divine relational life of the Trinity. He is the human face of God, and God's self-revelation to humanity.

Christians do not believe that Christ is the "monogeneses theos" solely because he was born of a virgin. We come to faith in Christ as the Son of God through his person and work revealed primarily in the gospels. He is also revealed throughout the Scriptures and in the sacred Tradition of the Church, and in other means. Once we have entered into a relationship with the Risen Christ, our faith grows harder and harder to shake. I can provide over 700 passages of the Bible that affirm everything I am saying in this essay if necessary. I have written extensively with Biblical quotes elsewhere. And Islam must deal with the fact that the Qur'an says it was given to affirm the Scriptures of the People of the Book (see Sura 2:89,101, and other passages can be provided if needed).

So, the "Son of God" language is not meant to be a biological fact. Rather, it is a term used to distinguish the second person of the Trinity.

Belief in the Trinity is based on belief that there is only one being, nature, essence, or substance that can be called God. In this language, the term "being" answers the question "What?". The full divine nature is completely active in all of the persons of the Trinity. In each person, it is fully God alone who is acting.

The term "person" is based on a Greek word meaning a mask. However, in defining the doctrine of the Trinity, the term takes on a new meaning specifically defined by the Church. The term refers to an identity formed and completed on the basis of relationship. It answers the question "Who?". By analogy, the "being" of the one who gave birth to me is "a woman". However, the "person" is the one whom I call "Mom". "Being" and "person" are not identical terms. They have distinct meaning. Part of the confusion is that with human beings, we see the being and the person as one. But there are several human beings, while there is only one being properly called God.

Human understanding cannot fathom the self-consciousness of the persons of the Blessed Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is beyond rational understanding and reminds us of the incomprehensibility of God. At the same time, it revelas that God is personal, and that God is revelaed in Christ, and that God is community in his very nature and essence. Thus, it is in relationships that we most image God.

The Trinity is known in experience. The Father watches over us and protects us as any good father. The Son walks beside us as a brother and guide. The Holy Spirit dwells within us. Each of the persons reveal themselves personally to us.

However, the persons of the Trinity are not merely modes of God's revelation to humanity. In the Bible, Jesus prays to the Father and sends the Spirit. The Spirit leads the Son and proceeds fromt he Father. The Father glorifies the Son and sends the Spirit. All three persons relate to one another in eternal love. There is a distinction in persons though there is no distinction in being.

Below is an excerpt form the Catechism of the Catholic Church which describes the correct Trinitarian belief with a few of the pertinent Scriptures and counciliar statements:

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"IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT"

232 Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"(53) Before receiving the sacrament, they respond to a three-part question when asked to confess the Father, the Son and the Spirit: "I do." "The faith of all Christians rests on the Trinity."(54)

233 Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names,(55) for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity.

234 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith".(56) The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men "and reconciles and unites with himself those who turn away from sin".(57)

235 This paragraph expounds briefly (I) how the mystery of the Blessed Trinity was revealed, (II) how the Church has articulated the doctrine of the faith regarding this mystery, and (III) how, by the divine missions of the Son and the Holy Spirit, God the Father fulfills the "plan of his loving goodness" of creation, redemption and sanctification.

236 The Fathers of the Church distinguish between theology (theologia) and economy (oikonomia). "Theology" refers to the mystery of God's inmost life within the Blessed Trinity and "economy" to all the works by which God reveals himself and communicates his life. Through the oikonomia the theologia is revealed to us; but conversely, the theologia illuminates the whole oikonomia. God's works reveal who he is in himself; the mystery of his inmost being enlightens our understanding of all his works. So it is, analogously, among human persons. A person discloses himself in his actions, and the better we know a person, the better we understand his actions.

237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God".(58) To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

II. THE REVELATION OF GOD AS TRINITY

The Father revealed by the Son

238 Many religions invoke God as "Father". The deity is often considered the "father of gods and of men". In Israel, God is called "Father" inasmuch as he is Creator of the world.(59) Even more, God is Father because of the covenant and the gift of the law to Israel, "his first-born son".(60) God is also called the Father of the king of Israel. Most especially he is "the Father of the poor", of the orphaned and the widowed, who are under his loving protection.(61)

239 By calling God "Father", the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God's parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,(62) which emphasizes God's immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard.(63) no one is father as God is Father.

240 Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."(64)

241 For this reason the apostles confess Jesus to be the Word: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"; as "the image of the invisible God"; as the "radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of his nature".(65)

242 Following this apostolic tradition, the Church confessed at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea (A.D. 325) that the Son is "consubstantial" with the Father, that is, one only God with him.(66) The second ecumenical council, held at Constantinople in 381, kept this expression in its formulation of the Nicene Creed and confessed "the only- begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father".(67)

The Father and the Son revealed by the Spirit

243 Before his Passover, Jesus announced the sending of "another Paraclete" (Advocate), the Holy Spirit. At work since creation, having previously "spoken through the prophets", the Spirit will now be with and in the disciples, to teach them and guide them "into all the truth".(68) The Holy Spirit is thus revealed as another divine person with Jesus and the Father.

244 The eternal origin of the Holy Spirit is revealed in his mission in time. The Spirit is sent to the apostles and to the Church both by the Father in the name of the Son, and by the Son in person, once he had returned to the Father.(69) The sending of the person of the Spirit after Jesus' glorification(70) reveals in its fullness the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

245 The apostolic faith concerning the Spirit was confessed by the second ecumenical council at Constantinople (381); "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father."(71) By this confession, the Church recognizes the Father as "the source and origin of the whole divinity".(72) But the eternal origin of the Spirit is not unconnected with the Son's origin: "The Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, is God, one and equal with the Father and the Son, of the same substance and also of the same nature. . . Yet he is not called the Spirit of the Father alone,. . . but the Spirit of both the Father and the Son."(73) The Creed of the Church from the Council of Constantinople confesses: "With the Father and the Son, he is worshipped and glorified."(74)

246 The Latin tradition of the Creed confesses that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque)". The Council of Florence in 1438 explains: "The Holy Spirit is eternally from Father and Son; He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration. . . . And, since the Father has through generation given to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son."(75)

247 The affirmation of the filioque does not appear in the Creed confessed in 381 at Constantinople. But Pope St. Leo I, following an ancient Latin and Alexandrian tradition, had already confessed it dogmatically in 447,(76) even before Rome, in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, came to recognize and receive the Symbol of 381. The use of this formula in the Creed was gradually admitted into the Latin liturgy (between the eighth and eleventh centuries). The introduction of the filioque into the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed by the Latin liturgy constitutes moreover, even today, a point of disagreement with the Orthodox Churches.

248 At the outset the Eastern tradition expresses the Father's character as first origin of the Spirit. By confessing the Spirit as he "who proceeds from the Father", it affirms that he comes from the Father through the Son.(77) The Western tradition expresses first the consubstantial communion between Father and Son, by saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (filioque). It says this, "legitimately and with good reason",(78) for the eternal order of the divine persons in their consubstantial communion implies that the Father, as "the principle without principle",(79) is the first origin of the Spirit, but also that as Father of the only Son, he is, with the Son, the single principle from which the Holy Spirit proceeds.(80) This legitimate complementarity, provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed.

III. THE HOLY TRINITY IN THE TEACHING OF THE FAITH

The formation of the Trinitarian dogma

249 From the beginning, the revealed truth of the Holy Trinity has been at the very root of the Church's living faith, principally by means of Baptism. It finds its expression in the rule of baptismal faith, formulated in the preaching, catechesis and prayer of the Church. Such formulations are already found in the apostolic writings, such as this salutation taken up in the Eucharistic liturgy: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."(81)

250 During the first centuries the Church sought to clarify her Trinitarian faith, both to deepen her own understanding of the faith and to defend it against the errors that were deforming it. This clarification was the work of the early councils, aided by the theological work of the Church Fathers and sustained by the Christian people's sense of the faith.

251 In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: "substance", "person" or "hypostasis", "relation" and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, "infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand".(82)

252 The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".(83) The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."(84) In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."(85)

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."(86) "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."(87) They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."(88) The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."(89) Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."(90) "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."(91)

256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople;


Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .(92)

IV. THE DIVINE WORKS AND THE TRINITARIAN MISSIONS

257 "O blessed light, O Trinity and first Unity!"(93) God is eternal blessedness, undying life, unfading light. God is love: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God freely wills to communicate the glory of his blessed life. Such is the "plan of his loving kindness", conceived by the Father before the foundation of the world, in his beloved Son: "He destined us in love to be his sons" and "to be conformed to the image of his Son", through "the spirit of sonship".(94) This plan is a "grace [which] was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began", stemming immediately from Trinitarian love.(95) It unfolds in the work of creation, the whole history of salvation after the fall, and the missions of the Son and the Spirit, which are continued in the mission of the Church.(96)

258 The whole divine economy is the common work of the three divine persons. For as the Trinity has only one and the same natures so too does it have only one and the same operation: "The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of creation but one principle."(97) However, each divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property. Thus the Church confesses, following the New Testament, "one God and Father from whom all things are, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are".(98) It is above all the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit that show forth the properties of the divine persons.

259 Being a work at once common and personal, the whole divine economy makes known both what is proper to the divine persons, and their one divine nature. Hence the whole Christian life is a communion with each of the divine persons, without in any way separating them. Everyone who glorifies the Father does so through the Son in the Holy Spirit; everyone who follows Christ does so because the Father draws him and the Spirit moves him.(99)

260 The ultimate end of the whole divine economy is the entry of God's creatures into the perfect unity of the Blessed Trinity.(100) But even now we are called to be a dwelling for the Most Holy Trinity: "If a man loves me", says the Lord, "he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him".(101)


O my God, Trinity whom I adore, help me forget myself entirely so to establish myself in you, unmovable and peaceful as if my soul were already in eternity. May nothing be able to trouble my peace or make me leave you, O my unchanging God, but may each minute bring me more deeply into your mystery! Grant my soul peace. Make it your heaven, your beloved dwelling and the place of your rest. May I never abandon you there, but may I be there, whole and entire, completely vigilant in my faith, entirely adoring, and wholly given over to your creative action.(102)

IN BRIEF

261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

262 The Incarnation of God's Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.

263 The mission of the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father in the name of the Son (Jn 14:26) and by the Son "from the Father" (Jn 15:26), reveals that, with them, the Spirit is one and the same God. "With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified" (Nicene Creed).

264 "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son" (St. Augustine, De Trin. 15, 26, 47: PL 42, 1095).

265 By the grace of Baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG § 9).

266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.



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53 Mt 28:19.
54 St. Caesarius of Arles, Sermo 9, Exp. symb.;CCL 103,47.
55 Cf. Profession of faith of Pope Vigilius I (552);DS 415.
56 GCD 43.
57 GCD 47.
58 Dei Filius 4.DS 3015.
59 Cf. Deut 32:6; Mal 2:10.
60 Ex 4:22.
61 Cf. 2 Sam 7:14; Ps 68:6.
62 Cf. Isa 66:13; Ps 131:2.
63 Cf. Ps 27:10; Eph 3:14; Isa 49:15.
64 Mt 11-27.
65 Jn 1:1; Col 1:15; Heb 1:3.
66 The English phrases "of one being" and "one in being" translate the Greek word homoousios, which was rendered in Latin by consubstantialis.
67 Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed; cf. DS 150.
68 Cf. Gen 1:2; Nicene Creed (DS 150); Jn 14:17, 26; 16:13.
69 Cf. Jn 14:26; 15:26; 16:14.
70 Cf. Jn 7:39.
71 Nicene Creed; cf. DS 150.
72 Council of Toledo VI (638): DS 490.
73 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 527.
74 Nicene Creed; cf. DS 150.
75 Council of Florence (1439): DS 1300-1301.
76 Cf. Leo I, Quam laudabiliter (447): DS 284.
77 Jn 15:26; cf. AG 2.
78 Council of Florence (1439): DS 1302.
79 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331.
80 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 850.
81 2 Cor 13:14; cf. 1 Cor 12:4-6; Eph 4:4-6.
82 Paul VI, CPG § 2.
83 Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421.
84 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:26.
85 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804.
86 Fides Damasi: DS 71.
87 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 530:25.
88 Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 804.
89 Council of Toledo XI (675): DS 528.
90 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1330.
91 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331.
92 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 40,41: PG 36,417.
93 LH, Hymn for Evening Prayer.
94 Eph 1:4-5,9; Rom 8:15,29.
95 2 Tim 1:9-10.
96 Cf. AG 2-9.
97 Council of Florence (1442): DS 1331; cf. Council of Constantinople II (553): DS 421.
98 Council of Constantinople II: DS 421.
99 Cf. Jn 6:44; Rom 8:14.
100 Cf. Jn 17:21-23.
101 Jn 14:23.
102 Prayer of Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity.

[seekeroftruth]

I will not to attempt to reply to your response for the fact that I have not written the above article and the other articles, which I have posted here.

The mere fact about Christianity makes me get confused. I have started to learn, what this religion is about and what it WAS before and how it HAS been changed. Whenever I try to engage and to learn Christianity I become more confused. Maybe by the help of allah I will understand this religion in the near future, maybe I will get more confused…who knows?

This could be something very strange to you, but whenever I read Islam or even read a single page of the glorious and pure Quran, I seem to see the ‘light’ clearly. You could say, this can only be experienced by Muslims, but I know many atheists and even Christians who after reading some passages of the Quran feel ‘something’ and they tend to see life differently. I do not know if u have experienced this or not. But whenever I try to learn and understand Christianity I become more confused but very clear that it has been changed, whether u like it or not!. But to me, Islam is something so clear and simple. Maybe u disagree with me because im a Muslim, but I will tell you again many non-Muslims find Islam as a correct way, but they have not yet changed, inshallah they will.

Yesterday I had a haircut, the owner of the shop is a Christian, now he tells me there is no heaven and everyone will live here on this earth and there is only one god, and Jesus is a prophet but now he is an angel. Now from reading your posts you believe in trinity, whether u chose basic words to explain it or whether u use complex words, it means 3 so 3 gods in one…. So you say and believe in trinity and the saloon man believes in one god. So Christianity is based on what U want to believe and there are so many VERSIONS of it, so imagine some Muslims saying alcohol is allowed [ as it is not allowed] some saying you don’t need to fast in Ramadan, now this is NOT ‘ISLAM it is ‘HIS’LAM >>get it. They make there own Islam, this is something which is not seen in Muslims, Muslims, whoever they may be whether in India or china, have their basic beliefs the same, One god, One messenger, One Book, E>T>C. But the ‘foundation’ of Christianity is not wrong but they are all false, so many versions of it, to be Christian, what do you need, some say you have to believe in Jesus as the god, some say he is one of the god, some say he is a prophet…e.t.c. Now if the foundation is corrupt how can the rest of the building survive. I don’t want you to give me dawah [call] to Christianity, because I find the religion of Christianity to be lost, whether u like it or not, it’s a fact!. So I hope u study islam and see the ‘simple’ and ‘clear’ image of life. Quite long thread but I just wanted to say, I don’t know much about Christianity, but I know that the message of ISA or jesus has been lost or changed!! May allah make islam victorious and make as much people see the true path of islam ‘clear and simple’.

And my haircut is nice, want to see a picture, just kidding.!!
Islam is pure and simple!!!

[jcecil3]

LAST EDITED ON 05-11-01 AT 03:32 PM (GMT)[p]Peace Seekeroftruth,

Since you admit that you do not understand Christianity and that you are in the process of learning it, I would suggest that you refrain from posting blatant attacks on Christianity, even if you did not author them. Don't get me wrong. The articles you posted are thoughtful, and well written. I am not even offended by them. However, I do feel that if you can't defend the positions the author states, it would be more constructive for your understanding to ask questions based on the articles, and post them later when you understand a little more.

You are correct that I am a Trinitarian, and that I believe that there are three persons in one God. Christianity is simple enough that children accept it on almost blind faith, but complex enough to keep a theologian busy for a life-time. I consider the doctrine of the Trinity to be so central to Christianity that anyone who does not believe it has no right to bear the name Christian. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and both Mainline and Evangelical Protestantism all believe in the Trinity. This comprises over 90-95% of all groups trying to call themselves Christians. Not every believer within these groups can articulate his or her belief in the Trinity well -- just as not all Muslims can articulate their beliefs well to others. That doesn't reflect on a person's faith. It just means they are not good spokespeople.

Roman Catholicism by itself is a larger world religion than Islam, and larger than all other Christian groups combined. I am a Roman Catholic.

The small groups that comprise the 5-10% or so of Bible religions claiming to be Christians that deny the Trinity are the Jehova's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventetists, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints (Mormons), Christian Scientists, and a few other small groups. Most other Christians do not believe these groups can properly called Christians. To put this in perspective, there are over a billion Roman Catholics alone (slightly more Catholics than Muslims), and there are literally hundreds of millions of Eastern Orthodox and Protestants. Thus, when I say that these other groups comprise about 5-10% of those claiming Christianity, I am not denying that their numbers are also in the millions. It is also important to note that these non-trinitarian groups would irk Islam, since many of them believe in multiple gods.

I found your reference to "his-lam" very ammusing. The simple fact is that where I live, Muslims practice very differently. Some claim Elijah Mohammend, Malcom X, and Louis Farakhan are prophets after Mohammed (though not necessarily greater). These are mostly American Muslims of African slave descent. I have more traditional Muslim friends from Uganda, the Gambia, and Sierra Leone that I often see drinking, and who do not pray 5 times a day, and may be married to Christians. Indeed, somewhere else in this forum, I stated that I came to this web-site to learn about Islam from people who hopefully practiced it a little more seriously than my friends here in America. There are devout Middle Eastern Muslims living here in America as well, but I confess that I don't have much interaction with them in my circle of friends.

Regarding your description of people seeing "light" when they read the Qur'an, I have been reading it since the bombing of the World Trade Centers. This is my second time trying to read it, as I tried before when I was in college. To be honest, I am not having the experience you describe. I do not say this as an attack on Islam -- it is only my personal experience, and perhaps I need a "guide". My personal experience is that the Qur'an is dry and repetitive. It is a chore to try to get through it. It may be the translation I am reading. Furthermore, my own personal experience is that image of Allah in the Qur'an strikes me as cruel and dictorial, and the image of Mohammed that pervades between the lines is that he was what we Americans would call a cult leader. I am absolutely sure that this is not what you experience. Again, I am sure that I am misunderstanding some things. So please do not take my description as an attack on Islam. Rather, it is an admission that I am weak enough in intellect to be missing something that seems obvious to you.

I will also point out that many Christians feel the same way you do about the Bible. We feel that if you read it with an open mind and an open heart, the letters will jump off the page. You will feel God is speaking directly to you. The Bible will shed light on your own life and give meaning to your existence. It will lead you to a deep personal relationship with Allah revealed in Christ.

I understand your confusion about the Trinity. It is a difficult doctrine to apprehend, and impossible to fully comprehend. The importance of the doctrine is what it says about Jesus and God's personal self-revelation to humanity. Most Christians do not spend a great deal of time trying to fully comprehend the dogma. Rather, they simply rest in experiencing the One God in one person at a time (either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit). Yet, all true Christians know that the doctrine is central to their faith. I have written elsewhere trying to describe and articulate the doctrine for clarification. If you really want to learn about, I would suggest reading the New Testament and some of what I have written on this site.

[jcecil3]

Greetings Asif,

You are correct that I probably started off incorrectly in my response to seekeroftruth above where I chose words that seem to come across though I were an administrator. For that, I apologize.

If you go back and re-read the entire context above, I was not criticizing seekeroftruth for posting the article. Rather, I was criticizing that he or she could not defend the article because he or she admitted that he or she did not know enough about the subject.

Most of my own post are in my own words. Where I do provide links or quote other sources, I researched the matter myself. If I am shown wrong about something by new evidence I had not seen, I promptly admit it. If I am not sure on a particular point, I say so. In other words, I have never posted a position on this site that I could not explain how I came to the conclusions I have, nor a position that I cannot defend without being presented new information.

As to the rest of my quotes you pulled out of context, I think the actual context makes clear that these statements were describing an experience, or impression -- not making a rational argument or attack on Islam. If you find that offensive, I am sorry that it hurts your feelings -- but how else can I ever to overcome the confusion, misconceptions, sterotypes and so forth I might have if I don't tell you what confuses me and what my biasis are? Once we name the bias, we are empowered to seek new understanding that help me overcome the bias.

As to your statements regarding Dr. Miller, I already responded to you on that thread. I believe that I have shown that I did not misunderstand Dr. Miller at all.

Again, you are correct that I should not use language that would imply I am an administrator. My intent was not to stop seekeroftruth from making posts, but to engage him or her in an intelligent discussion about the subject of the article.

Peace and Blessings!

jcecil3

[seekeroftruth]

Sorry everyone, for opening my 'mouth' or is it my keyboard.
Inshallah, i will post articles that are in my own words/ or good and i hope 'all' my articles are 'great' and authentic.

Take care all, and i will say, i have not seen any 'diss' board better than this one. I have 'surf-ed' around the oceans of sites, but i have to say, this site is just the best. Asif, i hope to meet you and the other members, 'we need to share knowledge' you have shown everyone, your good knowledge of christianity, inshallah i am learning too. I am not that into 'debates' or 'diss' with christians, but thats me.

Asif, keep up the good work, and inshallah you will do well on your exams, dua, such a powerful tool.




sadiq!!!

[Asif]

Assalamu Alaykum Brother Sadiq !

Jazaakum Allah Khair for your kind comments. May Allah grant all Muslims success both in this life and in the Life Hereafter, Ameen.

Wassalam,
Asif.

[Lulua]

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

I have been following this thread recently, and I must commend all on their efforts of a good debate/discussion in the best possible mannerisms.

Br. Sadiq-please do not discontinue your posting, you are doing a great job.

Jcecil-although your apologies I assume were more directed to 'seekeroftruth', still, they are accepted by us generally, and I personally can see the point that you were trying to make.

Br. Asif-great job, in this thread as well as the others. May Allah guide you and help you, and help you in your exams as well!!

================================================== ===============

Now, to address two main points here...one about the Quran itself, it's content as well as it's prose. The Quran itself, as a piece of literature, is quite different from the Bible. For first several experiences in reading it, whether for the non-muslim or a new muslim as well, it is difficult mainly because of it's difference of method of approach to the reader. The Bible, although it as well as the Quran, is rather repetetive of renditions of the same stories throughout, is more or less rather in a sense of chronological order. Whereas the Quran is not listing events of history in such chronological order. That beginning difference seems to shed a light of confusion on the first-time reader (even if this is not actually the first reading).

However, as you progress, you discover the wisdom and complexity behind the revelation of the Quran, and it's set-up of the verses in the order that they are shown, for one thing leads to another in a fashion that we as humans could never conceive, and interwieved among those verses are many reminders and guidances of the many aspects and attributes of Allah as well.

You will find many verses indicating the supreme power of Allah (as indicated by jcecil in his comment of his impression from the Quran of the aspect of dictatorial God)...yet as well intermingled with so many verses also showing the ultimate mercy and kindness and caring and loving of Allah. Those verses which remind us of the ultimate power of Allah, or perhaps even the anger of Allah, are verses which are intended to strike a fear into hearts to obey, while the verses which remind of the kindness and love and mercy of Allah are giving us guidance and reminders of the all-encompassing mercy and love and generosity of Allah. Those are verses of comfort for those who have seemed to forgotten or forsaken themselves from such mercy.

It is a delicate combination of the impression of a loving and caring God, while at the same time omnipotent and all powerful God which can and does become angered by those who arrogantly disobey, and an obvious punishment for those who choose of their free will to disobey.

About Christianity, regardless of how many times or manners you may wish to word it, it still boils down to the point or fact that the trinity (as has been so clearly stated even by jcecil) is a basic tenet of current-day Christianity, to the point that disbelief in that tenet (the trinity) means almost disbelief in Christianity as a whole. And what is the trinity? Nothing more, or should I say nothing less, than belief in 3 gods...combined into one, eminating the dogma of the trinity. No matter how many times you re-iterate your claims, or how many ways you word it, it does boil down to that simple and common fact at the bottom.

Islam so clearly and simply refutes that claim of the trinity. It even goes so far as to advise the Christians not to make mistakes or mis-claims in religion, in claiming the faith and belief of the trinity.

As for the claim of some wishing to acclaim Islam (the NOI in particular) and yet claiming the prophethood of ppl who have so obviously come along after prophet Mohammed (SAAW)...namely Elijah Mohammed, Malcolm X, or Louis Farrakhan (calling them prophets...or they themselves claiming such prophethood)...they are not muslims because of this claim. It is essentially against Islam to recognize a prophet after Mohammed(SAAW)...something clearly stated in the Quran.

And...as for those following their own version of Islam...as was previously coined 'his-lam'...certainly there are many the world over...muslims...who are not properly following their own religion...as can be said for other religions as well. That does not mean that they are not muslims...just that they are not good muslims, or perhaps better termed that they are not practicing muslims. Almost equivalent with saying that they are not muslims...but not quite. Yet, as Islam is a religion which is a way of life...still it is a religion put into practice, not only of belief. The test for the belief is in part based upon what the person puts into practice. Yet, it is not for us as humans to judge whether they are muslims or not...but something for Allah to term and judge at that time.

Have become quite off-topic here...sorry for that...but just addressing some topics brought up in the previous messages. Hope that some light has been shed on them.

As for reading the Quran...and finding the truth within it...perhaps a little prayer before reading would help you. Muslims and non-muslims alike. This is not an incentive to attempt to convince you to become muslim, far from it. That ultimate decision will of course rest with each individual. However, a simple bit of advice to all in preparation for reading the Quran, as well as other scriptures. Seek Allah's, or God's, guidance and help while reading.

================================================== ===============

One small reminder that I would like to share with all here. This is of course perhaps a little off-topic, yet I feel basically related, since there has been mention of personal experience while reading the Quran. I have, for some time, had some communication with a non-muslim, who has been asking me much about Islam, as well as about the life-style of muslims in general. Throughout our email communiques, he has confided in me that at one time, while doing a rather menial and tedious yet boring and long job at his home (mowing the lawn, to be exact)...he surprisingly found himself pondering on something that he himself could not explain. He found himself repeating over and over in his mind the following statements: 'Glory be to Allah'; 'praises be to Allah'; and 'Allahu akbar', or 'Allah is great'. This is coming from a person who is not a muslim, has never had muslim training himself, and has had little to no personal contact with muslims. His only experience or inter-mingling with muslims was over 30 years ago, and then with muslims who were not themselves strong or practicing muslims. This only occured after a time of several months of email communique between him and myself...his apparently only contact with a muslim. Of course, and naturally, because of the rage of coverage in the media of Islam after the 9-11 attacks, he has heard much about Islam, but that mainly in connection with the terrorism attacks, and not about genuine Islam.

Just thought that I would share that with all here.

Lulua.

[JBJ]

Hi Lulua,

I first have a question, where in the Qur'an speak about God's love? I've read the Qur'an, but everywhere the word "love" is used it seems to be in the sense that God rewards those who do what God's wants, and doesn't love those who don't. "To love" seems to mean "to reward" with paradise. Thus the idea of God being cold and dictorial. But I don't think this is what you meant by love. For example, a lottery may give someone a lot of money, but this isn't personal love. Is there any place that talks about God's love like with a parent and child, husband and wife, with friends, etc?

On a different topic, you said:

About Christianity, regardless of how many times or manners you may wish to word it, it still boils down to the point or fact that the trinity (as has been so clearly stated even by jcecil) is a basic tenet of current-day Christianity

I think Jcecil and I have written where the Bible talks about the trinity many, many times. Jesus said it, his followers said, even his Jewish enemies believed in Books that said it. (See the "Who Invented" and "Trinity in OT" threads.) Why do you still insist it's a modern idea? There's no evidence.

And what is the trinity? Nothing more, or should I say nothing less, than belief in 3 gods...combined into one, eminating the dogma of the trinity. No matter how many times you re-iterate your claims, or how many ways you word it, it does boil down to that simple and common fact at the bottom.

The same thing, the trinity doesn't mean this, why do you say it does? Non-Christians may say it means this, but why rely on what non Christians say? Should non-Muslims rely on what non-Muslims say? If they should, then Islam believes in terrorism, women abuse, and a moon god. I don't use non-Muslims to understand Islam, so don't use Muslims to understand the Bible.

However, if you can show us how the trinity, as the Bible presents it, boils down to three gods, then you'll have a good arguement. But please, show the evidence.

Islam so clearly and simply refutes that claim of the trinity.

Where in the Qur'an or hadith does it refute the trinity? No, really. They refute false ideas about the trinity, 3 gods and such, but not what the Bible says. The uses the word "trinity" but never explains what it means. By looking at the rest of the Qur'an and hadith, the idea means 3 gods, and so Muslims reading these texts will believe it means 3 gods. And what better evidence than what you just said? "belief in 3 gods." The trinity in the Qur'an and hadith isn't the trinity of Christianity.

I think a lot of wasted breath is used by Muslims when they say Islam refutes three persons in one God when the scriptures don't even mention the belief. If I'm wrong, then I sincerely want you to correct me, but where does Islam refute three persons in one God? If it doesn't, then I don't think there's any disagreement between Christianity and Islam on this topic. The Qur'an shows one God, the Jewish Bible shows one God, and the Christian Bible shows one God and three persons. Neither idea is wrong, one just has an extra detail.

certainly there are many the world over...muslims...who are not properly following their own religion...That does not mean that they are not muslims...just that they are not good muslims, or perhaps better termed that they are not practicing muslims.

Then you said, they are not muslims because of this claim. Which one is it? Is NOI not Muslim or not good Muslim? I hear a lot different reponses to who is and isn't Muslim, I just want to know your own opinion. Some say whoever repeats the shahada is Muslim, some say whoever upholds the 5 pillars, some say following everything in the Qur'an, some say intention, etc.

One last thing. You said that the order in which ayat are put is too beautiful to have been thought of by humans, but I remember reading somewhere, I think it was a hadith, saying that the compilers of the Qur'an moved verses to have them near ones with the same ideas. This would mean that the order could be and was man made. However, I can't find my source. If I can find it, I'll post it later.

I also wondered, would you give some examples of that? Reading through the Qur'an I'm at a loss to understand the order.

JBJ

[seekeroftruth]

>Hi Lulua,
>
>I first have a question, where
>in the Qur'an speak about
>God's love? I've read
>the Qur'an, but everywhere the
>word "love" is used it
>seems to be in the
>sense that God rewards those
>who do what God's wants,
>and doesn't love those who
>don't. "To love" seems
>to mean "to reward" with
>paradise. Thus the idea
>of God being cold and
>dictorial. But I don't
>think this is what you
>meant by love. For
>example, a lottery may give
>someone a lot of money,
>but this isn't personal love.
> Is there any place
>that talks about God's love
>like with a parent and
>child, husband and wife, with
>friends, etc?
>


Gods LOVE;
I found this on some site i was just visiting today i thought it will help this issue.

Love of Allah subhanahu wa ta`ala
Imam Ibn ul Qayyim al Jawziyyah

Ibn al-Qaiyim mentioned ten causes that result in Allah's love for His slave and the slave's love for his Lord. [These ten are:]

First, reciting the Qur'an while pondering over its meanings and what is meant by it.

Second, getting closer to Allah by performing voluntary deeds after completing obligatory deeds. This is as is stated in a Hadith Qudsi: "My slave continues getting closer to Me by performing voluntary deeds until I love him." [al-Bukhari]

Third, continual remembrance of Allah under all circumstances, with one's tongue, heart and actions. The extent of one's love of Allah is determined by this.

Fourth, giving precedence to what He loves over what you love when you are overtaken by your desires.

Fifth, the heart being avid of Allah's Names, and Attributes and the heart roaming in that garden of knowledge.

Sixth, observing Allah's kindness, goodness and bounties, both hidden and open.

Seventh, and this is the most wonderful, the heart being soft, subdued and meek before Allah.

Eighth, being alone with Allah during the time when the Lord descends during the last portion of the night while reading His Book and ending that by asking for forgiveness and repenting.

Ninth, sitting with the beloved and sincere, benefitting from the most fruitful of their speech. And not to speak unless speaking is more beneficial and you know that it will improve your state and be beneficial to others.

Tenth, remaining away from every cause that comes between the heart and Allah.

These ten causes take the lovers to the station of true love and bring them to their Beloved.











>About Christianity, regardless of how many
>times or manners you may
>wish to word it, it
>still boils down to the
>point or fact that the
>trinity (as has been so
>clearly stated even by jcecil)
>is a basic tenet of
>current-day Christianity
>
>I think Jcecil and I have
>written where the Bible talks
>about the trinity many, many
>times. Jesus said it,
>his followers said, even his
>Jewish enemies believed in Books
>that said it. (See
>the "Who Invented" and "Trinity
>in OT" threads.) Why
>do you still insist it's
>a modern idea? There's
>no evidence.
>
>And what is the trinity? Nothing
>more, or should I say
>nothing less, than belief in
>3 gods...combined into one, eminating
>the dogma of the trinity.
>No matter how many times
>you re-iterate your claims, or
>how many ways you word
>it, it does boil down
>to that simple and common
>fact at the bottom.
>
>
>The same thing, the trinity doesn't
>mean this, why do you
>say it does? Non-Christians
>may say it means this,
>but why rely on what
>non Christians say? Should
>non-Muslims rely on what non-Muslims
>say? If they should,
>then Islam believes in terrorism,
>women abuse, and a moon
>god. I don't use
>non-Muslims to understand Islam, so
>don't use Muslims to understand
>the Bible.
>
>However, if you can show us
>how the trinity, as the
>Bible presents it, boils down
>to three gods, then you'll
>have a good arguement.
>But please, show the evidence.
>
>
>Islam so clearly and simply refutes
>that claim of the trinity.
>
>
>Where in the Qur'an or hadith
>does it refute the trinity?
> No, really. They
>refute false ideas about the
>trinity, 3 gods and such,
>but not what the Bible
>says. The uses the
>word "trinity" but never explains
>what it means. By
>looking at the rest of
>the Qur'an and hadith, the
>idea means 3 gods, and
>so Muslims reading these texts
>will believe it means 3
>gods. And what better
>evidence than what you just
>said? "belief in 3 gods."
> The trinity in the
>Qur'an and hadith isn't the
>trinity of Christianity.




--------------
TRINITY!!!

50 Questions And Answers On Islamic Monotheism
http://al-sunnah.com/50q.htm




>I think a lot of wasted
>breath is used by Muslims
>when they say Islam refutes
>three persons in one God
>when the scriptures don't even
>mention the belief. If
>I'm wrong, then I sincerely
>want you to correct me,
>but where does Islam refute
>three persons in one God?
> If it doesn't, then
>I don't think there's any
>disagreement between Christianity and Islam
>on this topic. The
>Qur'an shows one God, the
>Jewish Bible shows one God,
>and the Christian Bible shows
>one God and three persons.
> Neither idea is wrong,
>one just has an extra
>detail.
>

----------------------------------------
Rejection of the concept of the "trinity":

"O mankind! The messenger has come unto you with the truth from your Lord. Therefore believe; (it is) better for you. But if you disbelieve, still, lo! unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth, and Allah is the all-knowing, the wise. O people of the scripture, do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "three." Desist, (it is) better for you. Verily Allah is one God. Far exalted is He above having a son. His is all that is in the heavens and the Earth, and suffice in Allah as a Trustee. The Messiah will never scorn to be the slave of Allah, nor will the favored angels. Whoso scorneth His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him; Then, as for those who believed and did good works, unto them will He pay their rewards in full and He will add unto them from His bounty. And as for those who were scornful and proud, them will he punish with a painful torture and they will not find for themselves any other than Allah as a friend or a supporter" Al-Nissa(4):170-173.

-----------------


>certainly there are many the world
>over...muslims...who are not properly following
>their own religion...That does not
>mean that they are not
>muslims...just that they are not
>good muslims, or perhaps better
>termed that they are not
>practicing muslims.
>
>Then you said, they are not
>muslims because of this claim.
> Which one is it?
> Is NOI not Muslim
>or not good Muslim?

-----------------------
COMPARIOSON BETWEEN ISLAM & FARKHANISM

http://alharamain.org/english/articles/farrakhanism.htm

--------------------


>I hear a lot different
>reponses to who is and
>isn't Muslim,

-------------------------
TEN THINGS WHICH NULLIFY ONES ISLAAM

TEN THINGS WHICH NULLIFY ONES ISLAAM
All praise is due to Allaah, Lord of the worlds. May peace and salutations be upon the Last Messenger of Allaah, and upon all those who follow him until the Last day.To proceed:Brother and Sister Muslim, you must be aware that there are matters which nullify your Islaam. Please be Mindful of them.

1. Associating partners with Alaah (shirk). Allaah Most High says (in the meaning ):

"Truly, whosoever sets up partners with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden the Garden for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the wrongdoers there are no helpers." (Soorah Al-Maa'ida 5:72)

Calling upon the dead, asking their help, or offering them gifts or sacrifices are all forms of shirk.

2. Setting up intermediaries between oneself and Allaah, making supplication to them, asking their intercession with Allaah, and placing ones trust in them is unbelief (kufr).

3. Anyone who does not consider the polytheists (mushrikeen) to be unbelievers, or who has doubts concerning their unbelief, or considers their way to be correct, is himself/herself an unbeliever (kafir).

4. Anyone who believes any guidance to be more perfect, or a decision other than the Prophets decision to be better, is an unbeliever. This applies to those who prefer the rule of Evil (Taghout) to the Prophets rule. Some examples of this are:

(a) To believe that systems and laws made by human beings are better than the Shariah of Islaam; for example,

That the Islaamic system is not suitable for the twentieth century.

That Islaam is the cause of the backwardness of the Muslims.

Or that al-Islaam is a relationship beween Allaah and the Muslim. It should not interfere in other aspects of life.

(b)To say that enforcing the punishments prescibed Allaah, such as cuttong of the hand of the theif or the stoning of an adulterer, is not suitable for this day and age.

(c) To believe that it is permissible to give a rule from that which Allaah did not reveal in Islamic transactions or matters of law, punishments or other affairs. Althoughone may not believe such things to be superior to the Shari'ah he in effect affirms such a stnad by declaring a thing which Allaah has totally prohibited, such as adultery, drinking alcohol or usury, to be permissible. According to the consensus of the Muslims, one who declares such things to be permissible is an unbeliever (Kafir)

5. Anyone who hates any part of what the Messenger of Allaah [saw] has declared to be lawful has nullified his Islaam, even though he may act in accordance with it. Allaah Most High says(in the meaning):

"This is because they hate what Allaah has sent down, so he has made their deeds fruitless" (Soorah Muhammad 47:9)

6. Anyone who ridicules any aspect of the religion of the Messenger of Allaah [saw], or any of its rewards or punishments, becomes an unbeleiver. Allaah Most High says (in the meaning):

"Say: Was it Allaah, and His signs and His Messenger that you were mocking? Make no excuse; you have disbeleived after you had believed." (Soorah At-Tawbah 9:65-66)

7. The practice of magic. Included in this, for example, is causing a rift between a husband and wife by turning his love for her into hatred, or tempting a person to do things he dislikes using black arts. One who engages in such a thing or is pleased with it is outside the fold of Islaam. Allaah Most High says (in the meaning):

" But neither of these two (angels, Harut and Marut) taught anyone (magic) till they had said, Indeed, we are a trial; then do not disbelieve. (Soorah Al-Baqarah 2:102)

8. Supporting and aiding polytheists against the Muslims. Allaah Most High says (in the meaning):

"Whoever among you who takes them as allies is surely one of them. Truly, Allaah does not guide the wrongdoers." (Soorah Al-Maaida 5:51)

9. Anyone who beleives that some people are permitted to deviate from the Shariah of Muhammad [saw] is an un believer by the word of Allaah Most High (in the meaning):

"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will not be accepted of him, and in the hereafter he will be from among the losers." (Soorah Aal-Imraan 3:85)

10. To turn completely away from the religion of Allaah neither learning its precepts nor acting upon it. Allaah most high says (what means):

" And who does greater wrong than he who is reminded of the revelations of his Lord and turns aside therefrom Truly, We shall exact retribution from the guilty." (Soorah As-Sajdah 32:22)

and He [swt] also says (what means):

"But those who disbelieve turn away from that about which they are warned."

It makes no difference whether such violations are commited as a joke, in seriousness or out of fear, except when done under compulsion (i.e. from threat of loss of life )We seek refuge in Allaah from such deeds as entail His wrath and severe punishment.

University College London Islamic Society

-------------------------------



>I just want
>to know your own opinion.
> Some say whoever repeats
>the shahada is Muslim, some
>say whoever upholds the 5
>pillars, some say following everything
>in the Qur'an, some say
>intention, etc.


This article below should help you;


Three Misconceptions
Abu `Abdil Kareem

There are three misconceptions that some of us Muslims have that are important to clarify.

Misconception #1

Not declaring kufr in what is worshipped besides Allah subhanahu wa ta`ala.

Declaring Kufr in what is worshipped besides Allaah is as essential as affirming the true Unity of Allaah ta`aalaa. In fact they go hand in hand, as our shahaadah contains both a negation of all deities (Laa ilaaha…) besides Allaah ta`aalaa and affirmation that Allaah ta`aalaa Alone is worthy of worship (…illa ‘Llaah).

There is many ahaadeeth that whoever says Laa ilaaha ill Allaah will enter Jannah. However, as if we at times leave an important hadeeth that explains this issue in more detail: "Whoever says Laa ilaaha ill Allaah and declares Kufr (disbelief) in whatever is worshipped besides Allaah then his money and blood are Haraam (forbidden to be harmed) and the judgment (upon this person) is up to Allaah."

Dr. Saleh as-Saleh says in his book on the Shahadatain, "The above Hadeeth is a great explanation for the true meaning of ‘There is no God but Allaah.’ It emphasizes that there must be a complete disassociation from anyone/anything (a righteous man, a star, moon, fire, river, cow, Buddha, Ghandi, Jesus, Khomeini, Malcolm X, or Y, Farrakhan, graves, statues, money, lust, heads of states, etc.) introduced between man and Allaah. When the person disbelieves in whatever is being worshipped other than Allaah, then he becomes a Muslim."

So it is essential for our maintaining of tauheed of Allaah ta`aalaa in our lives to declare disbelief in all that is worshipped besides Him. In fact, one of the principles in Islam that one who does not declare in kufr in what is kufr has himself committed an act of kufr, may Allaah protect us from it.

Misconception #2

Misconception that whoever declares himself Muslim, utters the shahaada, and even prays and pays zakaah and fasts, is necessarily a Muslim and that we cannot criticize his actions, "as we don’t know their intention". This is obviously incorrect, as the punishment of killing for apostasy (ridda) was instituted in Islaam for a reason - Allaah ta`alaaa does not give us legislation that has no application. The issue of takfeer is complicated one, but if a person, say, denies a single aayah in the Qur’aan, even if he does everything else that Islaam requires of him, he may leave Islaam by that act alone and he cannot marry a Muslim, nor can meat he slaughters be eaten, nor can he be buried with Muslims, nor are Muslims allowed to pray for his forgiveness.

The following excerpt from Sh. J.Zarabozo’s "The Friday Prayer: Part III: Khutbahs (II)" explains very well some misconceptions that some of us Muslims may have in this regard.

After explaining how the Jews and Christians went astray believing they are chosen people, and how we should not take the religion in the same way, Sh. Zarabozo writes:

"…The wrong actions we perform can harm us greatly as we many be sent to the Hell-fire due to our actions. Furthermore, and this is the point that I want to stress in today’s khutbah, we may even be performing actions that take us completely out of the realm of Islam to the realm of kufr. These acts - even if we call ourselves Muslims - are such that they negate any belief we claim to have and they can land us in the Hell-fire forever.

Many people don’t realize that leaving Islam does not necessarily mean leaving it completely by not performing any of its acts. Someone can leave the fold of Islam even if he continues to call himself a Muslim, claims to be a believer and even if he continues to perform some of the acts of Islam, such as praying and fasting. A Muslim is not simply one who performs any part of the religion. What happens sometimes is that a person performs part of Islam and at the same time he performs many acts of apostasy - such that, in fact, nothing is left of his Islam. He has left the fold of Islam even if he still claims to be Muslim. He is like the person who performs wudhu and then invalidates his wudhu; obviously nothing is left of his wudhu after he has invalidated it. Similarly, nothing is left of a person’s Islam after he has invalidated it by acts of apostasy and kufr.

Islam or being Muslim is not simply a name that we can call ourselves. Instead, it is testifying to something specific. Our actions must also be representative of that testimony. There are acts that one might perform that completely contradict that testimony. In such a case, nothing is then left of his testimony of Islam and he is no longer a Muslim.

At the outset, however, let me clarify one important point. There is a difference between kufr (act of disbelief) and kafir (a disbeliever). It is possible for a person to commit an act of kufr while he himself is not a kafir. If a person does an act of kufr out of ignorance, this does not automatically make him a disbeliever unless his kufr is explained and clarified to him and he then insists on following that act of kufr.

When you realize this fact - that there are certain acts or beliefs that may take one out of the realm of Islam and into kufr - you will then realize the importance of knowing those acts in order to avoid them. One of the best ways of protecting yourself from evil is by knowing what evil is in order to recognize it when it appears and in order to remain away from the roads that lead to it. Therefore, everyone of us should take the time to study those acts of kufr that may lead us out of Islam. Study them in order to makes sure that we ourselves are not performing them. We should know them in order to keep ourselves away from them. We should also be familiar with them in order to teach them to others to protect them from such acts also.

We should also realize that if we stay within the realm of iman and Islam, then even if we commit sins in this life - which is not something we may strive to do or be pleased with - but we should know that if we stay within the boundaries of Islam then even if we should commit many sins, Allah will enter us into Paradise as promised in many statements of His Messenger (peace be upon him). We may be punished in Hell for some time - and I ask Allah to save all of us from such an event - but then Allah will shower His mercy upon us and remove our sins from us, purify us and enter us into Paradise. But if we should leave the fold of Islam, then all of our deeds that we may perform will be worth nothing and we shall be in the Hell-fire forever. So this topic of knowing what takes one from the realm of Islam to the realm of kufr is of tantamount importance.

Misconception #3

Misconception that we should not write or speak about deviations that occur among Muslims.

Ibn Taymeeyah, in Majmoo`ah ar-Rasaa’il wa al-Masaa’il, 4/110, writes, "When some people mentioned to Imaam Ahmad ibn Hambal that they felt uneasy about criticizing people, he replied, ‘If I were to remain silent, how would the ignorant masses know truth from falsehood?’ Those who introduce heretical writings and deviant religious rites contrary to Quraan and Sunnah have to be exposed and the Muslim nation warned against them, according to the unanimous agreement of Muslim scholars. In fact, when Ahmad ibn Hambal was asked if one who fasted, prayed and secluded himself in the masjid was dearer to Him than one who spoke out against people involved in deviations, he replied, ‘When he fasts, prays and secludes himself, he does so for himself alone, but if he speaks out against deviations, he does so for Muslims in general which is more noble’. Hence it is clear that openly opposing innovation and deviation is of general benefit to Muslims in the practice of their religion and comes under the heading of Jihaad Fee Sabeelil-laah. Purification of Allaah’s religion and the repulsion of attacks against it is a general obligation (Fard Kifaayah) on Muslims by unanimous agreement. For, if Allaah did not raise up some people to oppose the corruption preached by heretics, the religious would surely become distorted and deviant. The corruption of divinely revealed religion is far more terrible than the corruption resulting from the military conquest of non-Muslims over Muslims. For, when non-Muslims overpower Muslims, they are not able to corrupt the hearts of Muslims or their religion, except after some time, whereas, heretics corrupt the hearts from the very outset."





>One last thing. You said
>that the order in which
>ayat are put is too
>beautiful to have been thought
>of by humans, but I
>remember reading somewhere, I think
>it was a hadith, saying
>that the compilers of the
>Qur'an moved verses to have
>them near ones with the
>same ideas. This would
>mean that the order could
>be and was man made.
> However, I can't find
>my source. If I
>can find it, I'll post
>it later.
>
>I also wondered, would you give
>some examples of that?
>Reading through the Qur'an I'm
>at a loss to understand
>the order.
>
>JBJ


i hope i have helped your 'understanding' of islam.
if i have made any mistakes, please do correct me (anyone)!!. JbJ i will not be able to reply to your post, (if you do reply) as i will be taking some time off from the net, i am on holiday, so i would like to read the quran and visit talks as i have some free time. Take care, and remember learning something might be 'hard' but ignoring something is very 'dangerous'.

salam to all!!

i'll be back, dont miss me!!!
and sorry in advanced if i have caused any trouble on this section of the site or caused any trouble throughtout the site.

TAKE CARE ALL!!!

"Cooperation in seeking truth is inherent to religion, but sincerity in the pursuit of truth can be distinguished by certain conditions and signs. A diligent seeker of truth may be compared to one who is looking for his lost camel. It would be immaterial for him if he or another person should be the one to find it. Likewise, a sincere truth-seeker would perceive his partner as a helper rather than an adversary, and would be grateful to him if he should guide him to truth."

[JBJ]

LAST EDITED ON 29-12-01 AT 06:38 AM (GMT)[p]Hi Seekeroftruth!

Wow! That's a lot of information, thanks a lot. But I still have questions. You never really answered what "love" means in the Qur'an or this hadith. (I assume it's hadith? What authority does it have?) Maybe giving the translation from an Arabic dictionary would help.

Then about the trinity. I know I have a pretty tough case to make, but give me a chance. First, any Muslim reading this shouldn't rely on thinking that the trinity is 3 gods in one, or anything like that. Instead, what the Bible and Christians say about the trinity. If there were 3 gods in one, trinity would surely be shirk. I'll go through things the web site says:

Tauhid means declaring Allah to be the only God who deserves to be worshipped in truth and confirming all attributes with which He has qualified Himself or that are attributed to Him by His Messenger.

The Bible says, "For there is one God" First Timothy 2.5. So no other gods deserve worship because there aren't other gods. The trinity also agrees that God alone has his attributes, eternity, omniscence, etc.

It is declaring Allah to be One and Unique in His work, Iike creation, sustenance, bringing to life and causing death etc.

It is declaring Allah as the Only God to whom all acts worship must be dedicated such salat (prayers), Zakat, Sawm(fasting), supplications vowing etc.

Again, there's one God. "For great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods (taghut)." (1 Chronicles 16.25)

It is an affirmation of all the Divien Names and Attributes of Allah in a manner that suits His Majesty, as mentioned in the Qur'an and the Sunnah.

There is nothing that Muslims say about the attributes of God that the trinity disagrees with.

(Polytheism) means to believe that there is one who shares Allah in His acts i.e. ascribing partners or setting up rivals to Allah in His rights.

There is none who do the acts of God outside of God. People without a complete understanding of the trinity might say that trinity doesn't agree because Jesus is also said to have done the acts of God. This is true, but Jesus is within God, not outside. Here's a similar situation:

Say that only Switzerland sells chocolate (for sake of arguement). Is this proven wrong because there's a Swiss merchant selling chocolate? Of course not, he's part of Switzerland, so this man is included in the first statement.

Here's the trinity in relation to the quoted ayat:

The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him.

This is commonly used, but if it means Jesus can't be absolutely anything more than a prophet, it would contradict other parts of the Qur'an. Jesus, in a sense, was more than JUST a messenger, he was also a miracle worker (raising the dead, making clay turn into a bird). But the point is that the verses doesn't say that Jesus wasn't one person among three in God's essence, or that he doesn't have any of God's attributes. If we take the verse in context, for those who heard it at Muhammad's time, it meant Jesus wasn't a god, and the trinity agrees.

So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "three." Desist, (it is) better for you.

What does "three" refer to? The Qur'an doesn't say anything about three persons, as the trinity says. It does, however, mention three gods. Logically, this is what "three" means.

Verily Allah is one God.

The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Torah, Deuteronomy 6.4)

Far exalted is He above having a son.

The Arabic word is "walad" meaning physical son. This implies that God gave birth to Jesus, or that his sperm had a part in conceiving him. Nothing like this is in the Bible.

The Messiah will never scorn to be the slave of Allah,

Not my (Jesus) will, but yours (God) be done. (Luke 22.42)

I know you probably won't agree, but let me know what you think.

JBJ

[seekeroftruth]

>LAST EDITED ON 29-12-01
>AT 06:38*AM (GMT)
>
>Hi Seekeroftruth!

--------------------------

Salam to you too

---------------------------
>Wow! That's a lot of
>information, thanks a lot.
>But I still have questions.
> You never really answered
>what "love" means in the
>Qur'an or this hadith. (I
>assume it's hadith? What
>authority does it have?)
>Maybe giving the translation from
>an Arabic dictionary would help.

----------------------------------------------
This is a Hadith Qudsi, which means 'Hadith Qudsi are the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) as revealed to him by the Almighty Allah. Hadith Qudsi (or Sacred Hadith) are so named because, unlike the majority of Hadith which are Prophetic Hadith, their authority (Sanad) is traced back not to the Prophet but to the Almighty.' This following hadith should help you, but if it can't then i hope others might help you or you just let you 'heart' read the quran and you should see how the love of allah is shown. ‘Qudsi Hadith’ (narrated by Malik by way of Mu'aath bin Jabal): “My love is incumbent upon those who love one another for my sake, those who exchange visits for my sake, those who sit with one another for my sake, and those who put themselves in the service of one another for my sake”. It is the loyalty of those who love one another not for worldly benefits but only in the cause of Allah. Those are the the ones for whom Allah's love is incumbent.

----------------------------------------


>Then about the trinity. I
>know I have a pretty
>tough case to make, but
>give me a chance.
>First, any Muslim reading this
>shouldn't rely on thinking that
>the trinity is 3 gods
>in one, or anything like
>that. Instead, what the
>Bible and Christians say about
>the trinity. If there
>were 3 gods in one,
>trinity would surely be shirk.
> I'll go through things
>the web site says:
>
>Tauhid means declaring Allah to be
>the only God who deserves
>to be worshipped in truth
>and confirming all attributes with
>which He has qualified Himself
>or that are attributed to
>Him by His Messenger.

------------------------
Below i have given a GOOD LINK, which explains it properly!! TAWHEED!!
--------------------------------------


>The Bible says, "For there is
>one God" First Timothy 2.5.
> So no other gods
>deserve worship because there aren't
>other gods. The trinity
>also agrees that God alone
>has his attributes, eternity, omniscence,
>etc.
>
>It is declaring Allah to be
>One and Unique in His
>work, Iike creation, sustenance, bringing
>to life and causing death
>etc.
>
>It is declaring Allah as the
>Only God to whom all
>acts worship must be dedicated
>such salat (prayers), Zakat, Sawm(fasting),
>supplications vowing etc.
>
>Again, there's one God. "For
>great is the LORD and
>most worthy of praise; he
>is to be feared above
>all gods (taghut)." (1 Chronicles
>16.25)
>
>It is an affirmation of all
>the Divien Names and Attributes
>of Allah in a manner
>that suits His Majesty, as
>mentioned in the Qur'an and
>the Sunnah.
>
>There is nothing that Muslims say
>about the attributes of God
>that the trinity disagrees with.
>
>
> (Polytheism) means to believe that
>there is one who shares
>Allah in His acts i.e.
>ascribing partners or setting up
>rivals to Allah in His
>rights.

------------------------------------
What about this;

Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God."

so jesus is part or is inside of god, praying to god? god !?//


------------------------------------------
>There is none who do the
>acts of God outside of
>God. People without a
>complete understanding of the trinity
>might say that trinity doesn't
>agree because Jesus is also
>said to have done the
>acts of God. This
>is true, but Jesus is
>within God, not outside.

---------------------------------------

But 'islam' says he is a simple messenger to teach the oneness of allah and the teachings of the original way of life, islam. so i do not argree with the above statement.



"And when Allah said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?* he said: Be You glorified. It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then You knew it. You know what is in my self but I know not what is in Yours. Truly! You, only You are the Knower of things hidden. I spoke unto them only that which You commanded me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them, and You are Witness over all things."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):116-118



What about this;
(Deuteronomy 6:4) saying "The Lord our God is one God"

----------------------------------
>Here's a similar situation:
>
>Say that only Switzerland sells chocolate
>(for sake of arguement).
>Is this proven wrong because
>there's a Swiss merchant selling
>chocolate? Of course not,
>he's part of Switzerland, so
>this man is included in
>the first statement.
>
>Here's the trinity in relation to
>the quoted ayat:
>
>[i]The Messiah, Jesus the son of
>Mary was only a messenger
>of Allah and His word
>which He conveyed unto Mary,
>and a spirit from Him.
>
>
>This is commonly used, but if
>it means Jesus can't be
>absolutely anything more than a
>prophet, it would contradict other
>parts of the Qur'an.
>Jesus, in a sense, was
>more than JUST a messenger,
>he was also a miracle
>worker (raising the dead, making
>clay turn into a bird).
> But the point is
>that the verses doesn't say
>that Jesus wasn't one person
>among three in God's essence,
>or that he doesn't have
>any of God's attributes.
>If we take the verse
>in context, for those who
>heard it at Muhammad's time,
>it meant Jesus wasn't a
>god, and the trinity agrees.
>

---------------------------------------
So perfroming 'miracles' gives you such a 'title' to become, what a 'part' of god? what is this!!!

--------------------------------------------
What do u think of theses statements; not attacking you, but your trinity 'jabber';

Dictionary of The Bible 1995 John L. Mckenzie

"The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief."



Why You Should Believe In The Trinity 1989 Robert M. Bowman Jr.

"The New Testament does not contain a formalized explanation of the trinity that uses such words as trinity, three persons, one substance, and the like."

-------------------------------------------

>So believe in Allah and His
>messengers, and say not "three."
>Desist, (it is) better for
>you.
>
>What does "three" refer to?
>The Qur'an doesn't say anything
>about three persons, as the
>trinity says. It does,
>however, mention three gods.
>Logically, this is what "three"
>means.
>
>Verily Allah is one God.
>
>
>The LORD our God, the LORD
>is one. (Torah, Deuteronomy
>6.4)
>
>Far exalted is He above having
>a son.
>
>The Arabic word is "walad" meaning
>physical son. This implies
>that God gave birth to
>Jesus, or that his sperm
>had a part in conceiving
>him. Nothing like this
>is in the Bible.
>
>The Messiah will never scorn to
>be the slave of Allah,
>
>
>Not my (Jesus) will, but yours
>(God) be done. (Luke
>22.42)
>
>I know you probably won't agree,
>but let me know what
>you think.
>
>JBJ

My fellow human, i would not like you to 'translate' the meaning of the quran to your 'understanding' to make 'trinity' allowed in islam. If it is a simple mistake then plz reframe from it. But remember, islam says 5 times prayer, why not 4 or 6, is this is 'islam'?.

Now i do not want to go into this trinity issue, islam says allah is ONE and jesus (pbuh) is just a simple messenger, This link provides basic understanding of 'jesus in islam', Jesus (Isa) A.S. in Islam, and his Second Coming = http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html SO plz i do not want to go into these 'troubled' issues. This is 'islam'.

>>>

Now tawheed, i forgot to give you a link on 'islamic' tawheed, that explains it properly; this is the link;


The Fundamentals of Tawheed (Islamic Monotheism)
Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/abutaw/abutaw_1.html


>>>

This is a good link too
Oneness of allah.
http://www.wefound.org/allah.htm

SO plz do 'search' your heart and find out more about islam. Do not go to 'wrong' people or sites to learn about islam, as we or myself will not go to wrong sites to learn about christianity. Keep up the good work and visit my links, choa!!


SadiQ

[JBJ]

LAST EDITED ON 04-01-02 AT 11:01 PM (GMT)[p]Hi Seekeroftruth!

Like I said, you probably don't agree, but that's OK. You said:

you just let you 'heart' read the quran and you should see how the love of allah is shown.

I don't understand. If there's a good balance between God's love and discipline in the Qur'an like you said, shouldn't the love part be obvious? The discipline certainly is. Isn't reading with your heart allowing your opinions to get in which may override the facts? A good friend of mine read a letter I wrote her with her heart and took it to mean something I didn't mean at all. Isn't this the same way? Aren't you allowing yourself to read into it and think that God's saying something he's not, just like my friend did?

Again, the Qur'an is in Arabic and it may be losing meaning in this case as it does with others. Perhaps finding the Arabic word(s) for love would help show what the Qur'an is saying.

What about this;

Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God."

What translation are you using? If you're going to analyze the Bible word by word, I'd suggest using the New American Standard (NASB). You can find it at bible.gospelcom.net

However, there are other verses that speak of Jesus praying to God. It comes into very delicate terms now, because using one wrong word or words in the wrong order will lead to false ideas. That's why people express it wrongly so often.

You said: "So Jesus is part or inside of God?" Yes, in a manner of speaking. Jesus is part of God in the sense that he shares God's attributes.

However, he is not part of God in the sense that he is some pieces of God and not other pieces. (For example, an engine is part of a car, but there are attributes of the car, like steering, which the engine does not have.) Jesus has all the attributes of God.

Nor is he part of God in the sense that other parts (Father and Spirit) cannot have his Godly attributes. (A steering wheel can give movement to car.) The Godly attributes which Jesus has, the Father and Spirit have. The Godly attributes the Spirit has, the Father and Son have, and so on.

Now, is Jesus "inside" God? I would say yes. But don't think of it in the way that I am inside a house right now. Jesus is inside God, but he fills God. I am not in the bathroom now, but Jesus is everywhere inside God. There is no place God is that Jesus is not.

Then, is Jesus praying to God? Yes, that's what the Bible says. This no doubt sounds strange to you (it sounded strange to me for a long time). That's not because it's impossible, though you may feel that way, but because it unusual. Does being unusual make it impossible? Not at all!

God is unusual, there is no one else like him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exists. Many things about God should surprise us because he's not like us. In fact, if God acted normal, then I would doubt his existence, or my perspective of his existence. God is unusual in his power, his wisdom, his holiness, eternity, glory, wrath, goodness, presence, etc. He is the epitome of uniqueness! Yet we're to assume his structure
is ordinary? Man-like?

This is something that draws me to Christianity, a mingling of heart and rationale. The Bible doesn't pretend God is simple in any way, it presents God in a wholly consistent view that he is complex, in eternity, holiness, creatorship, and in personality. Jesus and those who wrote about him weren't charismatic about it, they knew God was complex and didn't try to simplify him. Instead they spoke about him just as they knew he must be, beautifully immense.

Every aspect of Allaah is beauty.

Anyway, let's put Jesus in normal terms. Say you're in a committee within your firm. You're chosen as the person to take minutes at each meeting and report them the next month. This means that you talk to the committee.

Jesus is the same way, in abnormal terms. He's in God. He's chosen as the person to go down to earth and report to God. This means that he talks to God.

Make sense? Now as I said before, a committee isn't the same thing as God, I'm using it because it demonstrates how to understand God.

I said:

There is none who do the acts of God outside of God. People without a complete understanding of the trinity might say that trinity doesn't agree because Jesus is also said to have done the acts of God. This is true, but Jesus is within God, not outside.

Then you said:

But 'islam' says he is a simple messenger to teach the oneness of allah and the teachings of the original way of life, islam. so i do not argree with the above statement.

What part don't you agree with?

"And when Allah said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?* he said: Be You glorified. It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then You knew it. You know what is in my self but I know not what is in Yours. Truly! You, only You are the Knower of things hidden. I spoke unto them only that which You commanded me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them, and You are Witness over all things."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):116-118

I agree. "Jesus said, "I am returning to my God and your God." (Gospel, John 20.17)

What about this;
(Deuteronomy 6:4) saying "The Lord our God is one God"

In the Bible, God is one God with three persons in him. One God, three persons. Where's our disagreement?

So perfroming 'miracles' gives you such a 'title' to become, what a 'part' of god? what is this!

I didn't mean that anyone performing miracles is divine, I meant that the aya could not mean what Muslims take it to mean. If they did, it be a contradiction in the Qur'an because the Qur'an says Jesus is a miracle work and a messenger.

Dictionary of The Bible 1995 John L. Mckenzie

"The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief."

Why You Should Believe In The Trinity 1989 Robert M. Bowman Jr.

"The New Testament does not contain a formalized explanation of the trinity that uses such words as trinity, three persons, one substance, and the like."

The dates are a little off, but the main point is true. The Bible does not give all the details of the trinity, like saying there are three persons in one God. However, the trinity is totally a Biblical belief.

For example, if I say I went to the zoo and saw an animal twelve feet tall, with grey skin, and ivory tusks, would you say that the belief of seeing an elephant is of my explanation?

If the Bible doesn't teach the trinity, then what view of God does it teach? I myself believe in the trinity because there's no other way of interpreting the Bible except with the trinity, and yes, I've tried. If you can show me another way to believe in the Bible without the trinity, then I'll say the trinity isn't a Biblical belief.

Please don't call my beliefs "jabber," thanks.

My fellow human, i would not like you to 'translate' the meaning of the quran to your 'understanding' to make 'trinity' allowed in islam. If it is a simple mistake then plz reframe from it. But remember, islam says 5 times prayer, why not 4 or 6, is this is 'islam'?.

I'm not making the translation fall into what I believe, I'm restating what I've read by numerous authors on the translation of this word. This translation is unanimous, I've never found anyone who disagreed, Muslim or non-Muslim.

I do not "make trinity allowed in Islam." I read what the Qur'an and Muhammad say and, so far, have found in no place where either one contradicts the trinity. Muslims say that Islam doesn't allow the trinity, but Muslims don't make Islam, just as I don't, the Qur'an and hadith make Islam.

The hadith say to pray 5 times, not 4 or 6. The hadith (to my limited knowledge) do not deny Jesus is in God.

Now i do not want to go into this trinity issue,

Why?

islam says allah is ONE and jesus (pbuh) is just a simple messenger,

The Bible says God is One, that Jesus was a messenger, and that he was not a God, just like the Qur'an. Neither the Bible nor the Qur'an mean that Jesus was a messenger, and absolutely nothing more besides that. So why are we disagreeing?

SO plz do 'search' your heart and find out more about islam.

Thanks, I do. I try to every day, though I confess I often fail at doing it so often.

Do not go to 'wrong' people or sites to learn about islam, as we or myself will not go to wrong sites to learn about christianity.

I use non-Muslim sites because I can't always find what I'm looking for on Muslim sites. However, I do use Muslim sites quite a bit. When I had just starting researching, I used ONLY Muslim sites and books to get an accurate idea of what Muslims believe. It was only when I thought I had a descent understanding that I read non-Muslim authors. I have caught mistakes (and abounding biases) in non-Muslims sites

If you're thinking that saying Islam allows the trinity is from a non-Muslim site, it isn't. This is entirely my own idea that I discovered while reading the Qur'an. If anyone else shares the idea, I don't know of it.

You may not know it, but at http://www.wefound.org/allah.htm under "One of God" the author speaks about Christianity. The author who's book is excerpted makes many mistakes on the concept of the trinity. (I would suggest you not read any of it because it would confuse you with what Christians really believe.) He misleads what the Bible says about Paul. He takes the Bible out of context to make it say what it doesn't say. He also says that Abraham is going to hell which is totally against the Bible.

http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html also makes mistakes and leaves out information that (though perhaps a mistake by the author) misleads readers. This is not Islamic information, but information about what the Bible says.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/tawheed/abutaw/abutaw_8.html#HEADING10 in chapter two, the author says that Christians believe "God became His creation" which is false.

In other words, though you may not know it, you are looking at a lot of "wrong sites to learn about Christianity." This is why I suggest learning what Christians say before reading arguements against them.

Keep up the good work and visit my links, choa!!

Thanks, I am.

So plz i do not want to go into these 'troubled' issues.

Why?

I know this is getting very long now, so I'll try to keep it short. I think that you should also do search your heart with Jesus, just as I'm doing with Islam. Perhaps you'll find that the trinity is so impossible, by being logical or being Muslim. Yes, it is a troubling issue, but it's the truth.

Let's review, all the sites you posted make mistakes. Perhaps saying the trinity is illogical is a mistake also? Many Muslims say that Christians make mistakes in interpreting the Bible, so is it so impossible that there's another mistake about the trinity? Aren't we all human and fallible?

The key is to discuss both sides, all ideas, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, Christian or non-Christian. And an open heart.
With both of these we can find each other's errors and guide each other to the truth. And aren't you a seeker of truth?

Good bye and God bless,

JBJ

PS Who or what is "SadiQ"?