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LAST EDITED ON 25-10-01 AT 01:59 PM (GMT)[p]Peace to All:
Well, I'm continuing to read the Qur'an and visit some of the web-sites recommended by Om Mohammed and others. I've run across the following link:
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/salah/index.html
...and as I'm looking through this and considering other discussions in this forum, I realize more and more that a big difference between Islam and Christianity seems to be our attitudes about prayer and who Allah is to the believer.
Christians believe that prayer is ultimately a casual and spontaneous and personal conversation between the believer and Allah. We believe that we relate to Allah as one person to another. And furthermore, the Christian presupposes that prayer is possible because Allah dwells in us in some mysterious way, and because we are made in Allah's image. We believe that Allah loves all people (including sinners and infidel). We feel that faith is a channel of living trust that can be understood by analogy with the trust we might have in a best friend, a spouse, or a loving parent.
We feel we are children of Allah and that the goal of religion is to grow in an intimate loving relationship with Allah that spills over to our relationships to others.
We belive that we are friends and lovers of Allah, and that there is ultimately no real difference between my relationship with Allah and one of the prophet's relationship with Allah. The prophets are simply those who went ahead of me in time and wrote down their experience of this relationship as a guide, and in their choice of words, they also revealed the personal revelation of Allah in Jesus. For a Christian, the goal of prayer is that it becomes something you do all the time in the back of your mind and heart, like a young lover who can't keep the person she or he loves out of his or her mind.
Christians do have memorized and ritualistic prayers, but these are used as guides to a deeper relationship with Allah, and for times when I want to pray, but have no words for the desire of my heart. We even have prayer "disciplines" such as the Book of Common Prayer, or the Liturgy of the Hours, or the Mass. But even these are communal expressions of private prayer that nourish the goal of praying always without ceasing. We also have prayers for forgiveness, but we look at such prayer as we would look at apologizing to another person we have wronged.
Am I wrong to interpret Islam as having a different view? It seems that Islam sees Allah as a cold and distant slave-master, whose "love" is more the favor you show an obedient servant. It seems that there is no mention of loving Allah like you would love another person (or more). It seems to me that much time is spent in exact cleansing rituals and postures, with precise words. It seems that we cannot really relate to Allah, and humanity does not image Allah in any way. It seems there is no belief that Allah dwells within. It seems that trust in Allah to a Muslim is more akin to submission in fearful obedience. It seems that worship and prayers for forgiveness are done for fear of punishment, rather than true sorrow for damaging a relationship. Most shockingly to me, it seems that prayer is ONLY done at the five prescribed time. Our goal as Christians is to pray at all times without ceasing.
Am I simply misunderstanding what I read, or is this an accurate interpretation of Islam in what I have read so far?
Mardhiah
25-10-2001, 14:07
Assalamualaikum ya Muslimeen,
I have a question.What about the christians that go to church every Sunday? Since prayer can be like anytime does it needs to go to church every week? Hope this can be answered.Just a little curious.
Mardhiah Mansor
Like I said above, Christians DO have memorized prayers, ritualistic prayers, and prayer "disciplines".
I pray Morning and Evening prayer of the "Liturgy of the Hours", which is a compilation of the Pslams and some other readings from the Bible that Roman Catholic priests, nuns, and monks pray daily. The monks actually say the Liturgy of the Hours seven times throughout the day, and participate in the Mass daily. I also pray the Rosary frequently, and I participate in the Mass every Sunday.
But all these practices lead me to often just talk to Allah in my own words and to meditate on his ways throughout my daily life. I feel that he speaks to me in the circumstances of my life, especially in my relationships with other people. I aslo like to take time with Allah just walking in the woods, or pouring out my problems while I'm driving to and from work.
I do believe that honoring the Sabbath by avoiding work and spending time in worship once a week is a good spiritual discipline that nourishes our souls and reminds us that we are not saved by our works alone. Participating in Mass every Sunday is the highlight of my week, where I feel closest to Allah as I receive him in the Eucharist, and experience his precence in the community and the proclamaition of the word.
So, I am not criticising Islam for having a practice of praying five times a day. I think the practice of setting aside specific times for formal prayer is good, holy, and helps build a relationship with Allah that carries over throughout the week -- if that is the goal of the discipline.
However, when I read the material on the web link above, it specifically said that you CANNOT pray at any other time than the five specified times. Nor are you encouraged to pray in your own words. The words used in the ritual are expressive a relationship of slave to master. Though there are some references to worship and trust, they seem to be used differently than Christians use these words. It seems that the goal of the prayer discipline of Islam is NOT to build a relationship with God, but to appease a punitive being with power.
I am honestly hoping that I am misintepreting something. If I'm not, I really feel sad for Muslims.
So, I return to the question, am I interpreting these things correctly?
Dear jececil3:
We Muslims pray regularly, "Du'a" in Arabic, besides our five times a day ritualistic prayer, "Salah" in Arabic. Prayer in Islam is a direct channel to communicate personally with your Creator, who is ever Present, and ever Ready to Respond and without any intermediaries. The Holy Qur'an says:
'When my servants Ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed Close (to them): I listen To the prayer of every Suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, And believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way.'
You can make Du'a in any occassion, even if not clean, and at any time and in whatever conditions and we are not required to face Mecca (when we pray "Salah" we do face Mecca).
With regards to understanding of Allah jcecil3 you need to learn more about Islam and you cannot rely on one page on the Web.
sure
LAST EDITED ON 27-10-01 AT 09:18 AM (GMT)[p]Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Hello and good day to all.
Well, Jcecil3...it seems that in your comparison of the prayer rituals of the two religions, and your interpretation (or rather I should say misinterpretation) of the Islamic way of prayer and approach to Allah, you are almost on the borderline of insulting Islam and muslims by your assumptions.
I suggest you be careful of the way you word your assumptions...in order that you not insult. That is not what these forums are for. Please read your last paragraph of your original post on this thread, to understand better what I am referring to.
I have said many times before, and will repeat again, that the Quran is not only of course the word of Allah, but as well is a form of guidance for us all. Within it we find reminders, guidance, directives, comforts, reassurances, warnings, etc. One of those reminders is that we are to consider and look to prophet Mohammed (SAAW) as the perfect exempler. Within the framework of this advice, we look to his (Mohammed's, saaw) lifestyle, his practices, his speech, and take heed from that, using that which we can adopt ourselves in our lifestyles, attempting to emulate his very life and practices in our lives, in order that we may in turn emulate the teachings of the Quran. For his life itself was in fact a living example of the teachings of the Quran.
That said, let me address the concept of prayer, as well as our relationship with Allah. But before I do that, would like to reflect first of all slighltly on the format of the Christian prayer. There is hardly a Christian prayer that is said or done without some sort of intermediary. It is something inherent in Christian dogma and Christian training and teaching, that it is a great emphasis posed on the necessity for Christians to finalize their prayer by saying something like: 'through Jesus Christ our Lord.' (astaghfurAllah). There are two points in this very phrase which are going against the belief in one God, and the theory of monotheism. First of all, the very necessity of finalizing the prayer by such a statement as 'through so-and-so'...indicates that the relationship between worshipper and the deity Himself (i.e. God) is not a personal relationship, nor direct, becuase it is necessitating the interference of a mediator to relate the prayer to Him finally. And secondly, the reference to Jesus as 'Lord'. The term or title 'Lord' is something of endearance and respect, only truly deserving of our Creator, and that is God, i.e. Allah. Not Jesus, not Mohammed, nor any of the other prophets or great men throughout the history of the world. None of them deserve that rank which is equivalent with the deity, nor are they deserving of the position of mediator. This is a special quality to Islam, and to the Islamic prayer, that we muslims do not grant the position of intermediator to ANYONE, regardless of his piety during his life, regardless of his position among men or perhaps in relation to God. We each and every one of us individually access our Creator on our own terms.
That said, now I will attempt to explain to you the best I can of the format and meaning of the muslim prayer. Yes, there is a designated uniformity and regularity of prayer. This is something which has been dictated to us from on High. There are truly many verses in the Quran in relation to the prayer, it's order, as well as the guidance in reassurance to those who uphold the ritual of prayer, and remain steadfast, according to the reward they will receive (an incentive for those who are tempted to leave it, or who become lazy or for whatever reason have retracted from remaining steadfast).
'And be steadfast in prayer and regular in charity: and whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with Allah: for Allah sees well all that ye do.'s. 2, v. 110.
'Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.' s. 2, v. 277.
There are many more such verses, but I have opted to limit my quotes to those listed here.
Now, in reference to the rituals involved with the prayer, there is, of course, a ritualistic format of the prayer itself, which involves several points: that of the physical movements, as well as the mental involvement which entails the remembrance of verses from the Quran, or specified forms of supplications, as well as the higher and more emotional level which involves putting your heart into it, if you will...submitting yourself wholly and totally to Him who Created you, and humbling yourself before him, asking for His forgiveness, directions, guidance, and mercy, and all that you may feel you need or want in this life or the next.
The ceremonial washings and preparations before the prayer simply put the worshipper in the correct format of mind for presenting himself/herself to the Creator. I will ask you to imagine yourself going for an audience to the world's highest ranking person whom you both fear and respect at the same time. Perhaps this would be the president of your country, king or ruler of the land in which you live, perhaps the pope, a cardinal or leader of the church which you attend. The point is to try to imagine yourself having attained the chance to have an audience with this person, or personality. This is only a small portion of what we put into our minds as muslims, when presenting ourselves in prayer. I am sure that when you will present yourself for a meeting of such, you will want to look your best, smell your best, and appear your total best, and be on your best behavior, in the hopes of being in an agreeable atmosphere with this person. It is not everyday that you are able to attain such a meeting. It is not every moment that you are able to attain such a chance. And...you cannot fathom how this person could perhaps help you, so you try to make the best impression.
It is not that we try to make an impression with God...for we cannot hope to reach that level. But...rather that we are in such awe of Allah...He is on such a different level than we...such a level that it is totally unimaginable, and even quite suppressing if you dwell on it too deeply. But...to imagine something similar...or on our mere meager level of imagination as humans. One would certainly do his/her best to present himself in his best possible manner and attire for such a personality...just imagine the emphasis that we should place on our presentation for our Creator. There is nothing that we could do or wear that would impress in anyway, our Creator...but at least to ensure our utmost level of ability in cleanliness...cleanliness of mind, body, soul, and attire and place...to help pave the way to such a state.
To properly cleanse ones'self before the prayer, to ensure the cleanliness of the place of prayer as well as our clothing in which we prayer, is only out of consideration and respect for the ONE to whom we are praying. It is an effort (regardless how meekly) on our human parts to make an attempt at reaching and approaching our Creator. As well, it is a requirement of which is commanded in the Quran (here we go back to that guidance that we find in the Quran). We are told in the Quran to make sure of the cleanliness of our clothes for the prayer, as well as the place of the prayer, as well as ourselves. All must be in the highest possible state of cleanliness. This procedure of cleaning, and attempting to ensure the cleanliness of all that is related to the prayer, is only a preparation for our state of mind for the prayer itself, as well as a form of worship in itself, for having obeyed the command of Allah to pay attention to cleanliness for the prayer.
SubhanAllah...we are told that Allah is clean, and loves cleanliness. Imagine coming to the prayer in a state of impurity (after having been defacating and not cleaning afterwards, or perhaps after having had marital relations without cleansing)...astaghfurAllah.
This is one thing which I have noticed (by experience...and not assumptions now)...in the Christian religion...there is no such guidelines or directives placed on this. A menstruating woman is allowed into the prayer chambers along with the others...one may come in out of the street in a condition of hangover or still drunken, and yet accepted into the prayer chambers, I have even heard reports (eye-witness accounts from ppl who actually do such things) of reading their scriptures or praying to their
God within the bathrooms.
Not meaning to be 'christian-bashing' here...just a notification of the true state of affairs of the christian prayer. And, mind you...not assumptions accumulated by mere reading. Now, back to the main point of this message, which is to relate to you the essence of the muslim prayer.
In Islam, the menstruating woman, for example, is not allowed to perform the structured prayer (the five designated prayers) during her time of ceremonial uncleanliness, but she is advised to do private prayers through the format of supplication. This is to keep her soul active in such devotion, and to keep an open line between her and her Creator. Not to lose contact, so to say. And...for those who have lost contact for a period of time...for any reason (if it be unavoidable circumstances such as for women in their menstruation, or perhaps even persons having arrogance and not attending the prayers)...then the mere simple act of getting back to the prayer, and to realize the persons' own need for the prayer, in humbling one's self and realizing his own helplessness without the grace and mercy of Allah...that alone is enough to open up the path of communication again.
As for asking for forgiveness, it is also something of a personal type of link between worshipper and Creator...and no intermediary. Not like the Catholics who go to their priests for sanctions and forgiveness, but rather the individual merely approaches his/her Creator through a personal prayer and seeks for forgiveness, keeping his/her secret such a secret, between him and his Creator, and seeking for direct forgiveness on a direct and personal path.
Although there are five designated regular prayers daily (they are designated at assigned times, and should be performed each one in it's corresponding time frame)...there are still many other prayers to be made...voluntarily...as the worshipper sees fit, or feels the need. Within the framework of this structured format of prayer, there are several steps to be followed. I have already mentioned that there is the physical aspect of the bodily movements (bowing, then standing, then prostrating, then sitting, then standing again to repeat the process until the current prayer itself is finished). There are sections to the prayer, and I will not get into this detailed now(it is quite thorough process, something of which I have a detailed report, and will post later, inshaAllah at the 'Beginning Muslims' forum, inshaAllah).
However, there are verses and/or supplications which it is either/and necessary or recommended to say at certain positions within the prayer itself. At times we recite verses from the Quran (the main and basic verse being the chapter called 'The Opening Verses', or Surat-al-Fatihah). This is the most basic and totally-encompassing passage of the Quran, in it's short verses we find the total essence of the Quran, as well as a major and general prayer for mankind...an attempt to reach and access our Creator. This is to be recited in each section of the prayer. Then, one can recite some other verses from the Quran, as the individual sees fit and finds comfort in doing so. Then, there are sections of the structured prayer where we recite certain supplications. Some sections, those supplications are following the example of the prophet in what supplications he himself used to say in his prayers. At other sections and times of the prayer, we are instructed to make our own supplications, thereby individulizing the prayer, and making that prayer the 'personal' prayer of the individual performing it...for the supplication at this time and section is the personal desire or need of the worshipper on hand.
As well as the five regular assigned prayers, there are obligatory prayers, which can be performed in relation to those five structured prayers. They are in association with those five structured prayers, either beforehand or afterwards, or even both (before and after)...as well as at other times of the day and night as well. There is also a pre-dawn prayer and a pre-noon prayer, as well as one well after midnight and into the early hours of the morning, which are all well-recommended prayer times for voluntary prayers.
As well as this structured format of the prayer, which includes within it's structured format opportunity for the individual to 'speak to God on his own terms'...in supplication for his/her own needs and wants...still we are encouraged and taught and reminded to make supplication (personal prayer) throughout the day and night at all times. This is an on-going process which none should ignore. These supplications can be made (and very well should be made) in excess of the structure of the formatted prayer, and at all times and places (as long as the place is relatively clean..i.e. not in unclean places such as the bathroom).
And, as well as that, we are taught as muslims, to remember Allah throughout the day and night, in all things that we do. This is for instance by saying 'bismAllah' (in the name of Allah) at the onset of doing something, or perhaps at the onset of opening up a container of anything, etc, as well as saying 'bismAllah' at the onset of eating and drinking, as well as saying 'alhamdulillah' (thanx be to Allah) at the completion of partaking of nourishment. To say 'subhanAllah' (glory be to Allah) at seeing or noticing something of amazement, or perhaps at noticing the beauty and wonderment of God's creation, etc. And there is really much, much more.
All of this is a formula and format for our daily lives, moment by moment, to remind us of our position and relation with Allah. We are in fact His slaves...does that bother you so much? We are His slaves...He has commanded for us to believe in Him and to worship Him. When we do so, we incur His unending mercy and find guidance. To ignore that we are His slaves is an arrogance which is something what has gotten Satan into the trouble that he himself is in. Jesus himself preached this concept...of the slave-master relationship. He himself (Jesus) worshipped his Master. He (Jesus) many times referred to God as the Master. And we are the slaves. There is no problem in that. This is merely the format of the creation.
Back to the Quran, we find this verse:
'It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.'s. 50, v. 16.
How much closer could you get? We are told here that Allah is closer to us than our jugular vein. We are not told that Allah is 'within' us, or somehow incarnated into us, as what is the suggestion of many Christians in their thoughts, but it is part of the power of Allah, and part of His attributes...that He knows all about us, even our inner most secrets...and this description of Him being closer than our jugular vein, only goes to emphasize that understanding of Him being so close with us.
It is not only a comfort for those who are seeking the closeness of Allah, but as well a warning for those who tend to stray, to realize or remember that Allah is all-knowing, and all-seeing, and truly aware of all things with all souls...even the most inner secrets, or those things which absolutely no one knows. Rest assured (or deem reminded and warned) that Allah knows all that you do, think, and even attempt to do and think. For it was He who created you, and it is He who keeps watch.
And, as a major source of consolation and reminder and comfort:
'When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: let them also, with a will, listen to My call, and believe in Me: that they may walk in the right way.' s.2, v. 186.
This verse is truly quite self-explanatory, and needs little further explanation. It is a strong reminder and comforter to all to remember that Allah is there for everyone...but what is needed is the outreach from the person himself...to reach out to Allah, to supercede his/her own arrogance and humble himself/herself to communicate in direct communication line to his/her Creator. Allah hears and listens to all who call upon Him...and replies...but what is needed is the outreach from the individual to begin with. To overcome his/her own arrogance and pride, and to ask of Allah what one needs or wants. Quite a simple and reassuring method, actually.
Alhamdulillah. (Thanx and praise be to Allah!!).
As for the love of Allah, and His concern for creation (mankind included)...merely read the Quran and you shall find all that is there for you to find. Of course, there are verses and instances which demonstrate to us perhaps the anger of Allah, and retribution. But there are also many verses which represent His Mercy, His love and gentle care for all of creation as well.
One great example of His great love is in the expression or reminder of one of His attributes: 'arham al-rahimeen'. This is a description of Allah, which is actually taken from the Quran itself (here we go again, back to the tenet of the Quran being our guidance)...where we are told that Allah is actually 'arham al-rahimeen'...=the most merciful of those who show mercy. How much more loving and kind and merciful could you possibly get?
There are also throughout the day a recommended format of 'dhikr' or remembrance of Allah, which we find in the example presented and showed to us by prophet Mohammed. This format of remembrance should be repeated at these times: sunrise, sunset, upon going to sleep, as well as after the obligatory prayers, and suggested even after the voluntary prayers as well, and at any other times throughout the day. This format of remembrance is similar, perhaps, to the 'rosary' practice which is observed by the catholics. However, even in view of it's similarities, it is quite different.
I sincerely hope that I have succeeded even in the slightest to help you to realize your mistake in your assumptions of the muslim prayer, jcecil. I would like to remind you and warn you: that religion (as I am sure you are quite well aware of yourself) is quite a personal thing. Next time you are making assumptions, try to picture yourself if presented with similar such assumptions of the thing which perhaps you hold most dear to yourself. Be careful of insulting others, particularly of such a personal and important thing of religion and form of worship.
There is most certainly a personal, and in fact, direct relationship between the muslim worshipper and his/her Creator. It is the matter of the worshipper himself/herself taking the step and time and effort to make that relationship personal. Perhaps it is an individual thing...and others do not perhaps view it as I do. However, it is an important aspect of an Islamic life...and so important in fact, that rejection of this prayer-relationship to the Creator instigates an exit from the folds of Islam entirely. Prayer is perhaps the most important aspect of Islam, second only to the original entrance into Islam by the statement of belief. (shahada)
Will be posting soon in the Beginning Muslims forum, inshallah, the detailed format and methods of the muslim prayer. So, if you are interested, perhaps you will want to check up on that later.
Lulua.
Mardhiah
27-10-2001, 13:06
Assalamualaikum Wr Wb,
Like to add that in Islam, laws can be divided to five; wajib, haram, istahabah, mubah and makruh.Wajib is obligatory(i.e the 5 prayers) for if we leave one of the orders is a sin.Haram is the opposite, forbidden and if we leave will be rewarded.Istahabah orders are encouraged, leave gets nothing(i.e nafilah prayer).Mubah is the necessary like eating where we won't be rewarded or punished if it is not done.Makruh doings are dislike by Allah but will not be punish for to be conducted.Note that 40 times of makruh doings can be considered haram.
I don't know which part of the information makes you said that salah is a ritual for the relationship between slave and master.Perhaps it is this sentence, " The word 'Ibadah comes from the Arabic "Abd", which means slave or servant. Man is a born subject and servant of Allah. When he turns to Allah with humility and devotion, he performs an act of `Ibadah " made you think so.But look at this one,"The obligatory rituals of `Ibadah make "faith" (Iman) to play a practical and effective role in the human life".When a person has faith in Allah, he would find a way to get closer to Him,just like the Sabbath.Salah is the closest communication between Allah and human.Read the meanings of the prayers read in salah.They are all about seeking help and protection.
Why must we ask for all those? Because we believe that human are not children of Allah.The nobles are those who are sincere in the hearts.We can't be proud of our good deeds and look down on others.To us, only Allah knows what is in the heart of a person.The righteous will be rewarded and the wrongdoers will be punished fairly and yet mercily.From Abi Hurairah(R.A), Prophet Muhammad S.A.W said: The one that will be counted first on the day of judgement is the salah.Our God will say to His angels,"Find out whether the salah of my slave is completed or not enough." If it is completed, it will be written completed. If it is not enough He will say, "find out whether by him nafilah prayer." If there is, then completed his furud prayer with his nafilah prayer, and take his deeds on that."
Do u actually read everything from the web link or partially? We do have prayers other than the 5 prayers, some with extra readings.Those are not obligatory, only for those who want to perform.Of course we can't pray in our own words.Prophet Muhammad s.a.w said, "Pray as what you see me pray."To say that the reading have to be memorised.....I don't think so, because I read them everyday 5 times since I was small.They will stick in the mind when repeated many times.Maybe you can say that to the new converts.Anyway not every readings are must.
Beside salah, we can still talk to Allah in any language we want to.God's knowledge are infinited,thus all kinds of languages will do.We call this "do'a" (I'm not sure whether this is the right spelling).To some of us, it is the weopon of the muslims.We can ask whatever we want to,the more the better.This show humbleness towards Allah.However, to do it in salah is commendable where we are closer to Him.
Mardhiah Mansor
Ruqayyah
27-10-2001, 16:03
Bismillahi-Rrahmani-Rrahim.
Assalamualaikum.
I have a question as I'm just curious.From what I know on Christianity,there are 3 gods in 1?And all of them are actually Allah right?Existing as Jesus and also Yashua.Umm....then how and why do Christians have to pray to Allah through Jesus when he is Allah Himself?Does this some sort of like suggesting that Allah, i mean Allah here in the Christian's view,is weak and need some sort of like something or somebody to tell him that:Oh,this girl asked for this.And that guy asked for that.Because in Islam,we believe Allah is the All Knowing.He hears everything,sees everything,knows every secret and intention.He will usually answer our prayers,be it good or bad.However then,what's bad come from the human himself.Everything from Allah is good.And the everything's done by the human being,good or bad,will be rewarded justly.
Wassalam.
Ruqayyah Ramli.
LAST EDITED ON 29-10-01 AT 11:18 PM (GMT)[p]Thanks to everyone for responding so seriously.
Lulua -- I apologize that you felt insulted. I thought that I was clear that I was probably misinterpreting Islam, and you have confirmed that I may have been. That was the purpose of phrasing my post as a question rather than a statement. I am not sure how I could have asked the question without making it any clearer that I was not attempting to insult anyone. I was seeking clarification.
Sure786 -- I am not relying solely on this pamphlet, as you indicate in your last sentence. The pamphlet represents one source among many and was accessed via a link from another source recommended in this forum. I was verbally told the same thing by a Sierra Leonian Muslim about a year ago, and I thought he was simply ignorant of his own faith. But then the pamphlet had me wondering if maybe he DID understand his faith, and I misunderstood Islam. It seems a valid question. The pamphlet is also part of a larger effort to understand Islam, and my posting on this site is also an effort to understand. In other words, if I ask a question that strikes you as stupid, please bear in mind that I am asking because something I have read or heard is unclear, I am ignorant, and I believe that you and others here can help clarify the confusion I experience. I am not asking questions with the intent to attack.
Raqayyah -- Christians do not believe that there are 3 gods in 1 god. Rather, Christians believe that there are three "persons" in one God. The confusion you are experiencing is by mushing together terms. The term "person" does not mean the same thing as "being". The term "person" can only be understood in relationship to another. "Personhood" is an identity formed and completed on the basis of relationship. The term answers the question "Who?" The term "being" refers to the essence of something, and answers the quesion "What?" Thus, there is one being that can properly be called "God". This being is the creator and Lord of the universe. This being is revealed in three persons. In God's self revelation to humanity, he has also revelaed that the identity of the persons in the God-head are in relationship to one another. This is not something that a creature can fully comprehend. However, we apprehend the truth from the Bible, which clearly says there is one God, and clearly refers to the Father as God, Jesus as God, and the Holy Spirit as God. The Bible then goes on to demonstrate that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit relate to one another as persons. The persons are not three separate Gods. They are three separate persons within the one God. The one God reveals himself to us in each of the three persons. Yet, the one God also reveals that each person of the God-head also relates to the other persons of the God-head. To pretend that we can understand God's self-consciousness in this revelation is arrogant. God's self-consciousness is a mystery beyond the grasp of a creature. However, a creature can grasp THAT there are three persons in the God-head without understanding HOW that can be.
To ALL: Regarding the "mediation" between Christians and God through Christ, we do believe that Jesus IS God. Thus, when we end our prayers "through Chirst, our Lord", we are praying directly to God, and affirming that we believe that God has condescended to reveal himself in the person of Christ. Christ is also truly human, making himself the perfect mediator between God and humanity. In other words, if God is as trancendant as both the Bible and the Qur'an say, we do not see how human beings can connect to God. But if God condescends to establish the connection with us by joining us in the flesh, then the connection is established by God himself, which makes perfect sense.
Lulua -- regarding your statement Christians pray "in a condition of a hangover or still drunken,...or praying to their God within the bathrooms" or while menstrating, this statement is correct! That is part of my original question -- that we feel called to pray without ceasing (at least after we mature in grace for awhile). While drunkeness is considered a sin, Christians feel that we can approach God even in our sinfulness or uncleaness. Confession to a priest is a symbolic and ritual form of prayer that acknowledges this. Growing up, I sat next to my best friend's mother at Midnight Mass on Christmass Eve every year while my Mom sang in the choir. My friend's mother was always a bit tipsy from holiday parties. I saw this as a strength of Christianity -- that it even reaches sinners and keeps them in relationship with God even when we fall. Jesus said that he came to call sinners, and he was known for eating and drinking with sinners and outcasts. Regarding the bathroom, I sometimes say a prayer while in the bathroom that goes, "Lord, as you created my body to eliminate waste, so eliminate sin from my soul." I also pray while I am taking a shower and shaving, sometimes singing religious hymns. I also pray the Liturgy of the Hours with my wife while she is menstrating. In other words, though God is a holy being beyond my comprehension, I feel that he has revealed that he wants me to relate to him like I do to people around me -- not only kings and so forth, but like I would a co-worker, a friend, a parent, or a spouse and other whom I relate to in informal ways. You are correct that all this is very personal, and I am not trying to force anyone to talk about things they are uncomfortable talking about. However, this is what I am interested in learning about Islam -- what it feels like to be Muslim! and it still seems to me that this attitude towards prayer is somewhat different between Islam and Christianity.
Jcecil3-Your questions at these forums are most welcome, and I do understand not only from your explicit stating as such, but merely by your participation here...that you are in fact trying to understand Islam, and perhpas trying to understand the sea of differences between Islam and Christianity.
However, it is sometimes your approach to description of the topic or your assumptions of Islam that are coming thru in that approach that is a bit insulting. Questions are NOT stupid...I will certainly reassure you of that. But do be careful in making assumptions...particularly of the personal relationship that one may have...in particular with the Creator...something of which you cannot fathom...neither of your fellow Christians, much less of muslims.
Believe me, I am trying very patiently to be unemotional in attempting to answer to your questions and comments. Sometimes that is difficult, but I do try. Please forgive me if from time to time I may lose it a bit...and seem to be retorting in anger.
You speak of your personal relationship with God...as if it is something that no one other than Christians can experience. Perhaps you are not meaning it as such...but that is what is coming across. I can assure you...speaking from the voice of experience...that we muslims most certainly do have a personal and very real relationship with God...much similar to that which you have described yourself.
We relate to him in almost every instance of our lives...in anything that we do, anything that we attempt, and anything that may come across to us. It does not have to be in the structured format of the prayer...and in fact we are encouraged to relate to Him through supplication (private prayers) at any time and any place. This can be done vocally to be physically heard, or perhaps privately and secretly within the heart and mind of the individual. Either is fine and either is acceptable, depending upon the situation at hand, and the preference of the individual concerned.
We also recognize that God is available to us at our worst times...at the times of the heightness of our sinning...in fact, that is the time in which we are in more need of Him and His guidance. There is certainly no harm in approaching to him in words of remembrance or supplication at these times. But to approach Him in the structured performance of the prayer at these times in our lives is 1. a disobedience to His commandments, as well as 2. a blaspheme to Him and His position. A person in the state of drunkenness does not have full control of the capacity of his/her mind...and may very well do or say some things which he/she does not mean, or does not truly wish to do so. We are even warned against continuing with the prayer when we are in a state of severe drowsiness...so as to prevent ourselves from perhaps stating something undesirable in our prayers...and to rest until the state of drowsiness has passed, and then...when in full control of our senses...to proceed with the prayer. So, then...how about in a state of drunkenness or high with intoxicating drugs? About the state of ceremonial impurity...such as menstruating or after sexual relations...well, the person has full control to purify himself/herself...in the case of sexual relations...one should purify himself/herself immediately afterwards, and before continuing on into acts of worship...in order to be more presentable to our Creator. (this is also fulfilment of a command in the Quran...to purify after marital relations). As for the menstruation...it is something which a woman cannot control...but still a ceremonial impurity. It only prevents her from attending to the structured and formatted prayers during that time, but does not prevent her from continuing on in beautiful and helpful remembrance of Allah and His Attributes...nor from supplications at all times she sees fit. This in itself is a relation of continuence of tie to her Creator. As well, in abstaining from the structured formatted prayers...it is a compliance with Allah's commands in the Quran.
There are many many points to debate upon in comparison between the religions...and perhaps we will never agree or see eye to eye on any of them.
Let me say this: it boils down apparently(in my view) to two basic things...what you accept as true revelation (in reference to the Quran and Bible and other scriptures)...and faith. The basic underlying definitive being faith.
I would also like to touch slightly upon the topic of the 'trinity' again: I know your definition of it...it is nothing new to me. I come from a background of Christianity myself.
The belief in the trinity, or the dogma of the trinity is nothing more than a type of idol-worship in associating partners with the Creator. There is no getting around that, no matter how much you may twist the words in explanation of that. If you still insist upon that belief, then that is certainly your own choice. But I warn you...as we are all warned of this in the Quran...that it is a severe sin indeed. There is only ONE God...and with no partners in any way shape or form...and with no intercessors. Islam presents a very simple and logical explanation of the Creator, His universe and creation, and our relationship to Him. Islam has no complexities within it as does modern-day Christianity.
I hope that someday you can see that for yourself.
Lulua.
Forgive me for continuing to press the issue if I am annoying you. This topic is extrememly interesting to me with each response you give me. Again, my intent is not to attack, but to understand.
Allow me to clarify that I have absolutely no problem understanding a need for formal prayer or rituals to feed our spiritual life. The rituals you describe are beautiful in and of themselves.
Where I am confused is in the areas where you seem to say prayer may be inappropriate. For example, with the sexual relations of man and wife, you state that Muslims wait to purify themselves after the act. In my marriage preparation, my priest encouraged my wife and me to see our sexual union itself as a form of prayer whereby we participate in the creative act of God. Regarding praying while drowsy, while I was studying for the priesthood, my spiritual directors encouraged me to pray as I was drifting off to sleep, and the nuns in my Catholic grade school encouraged the same thing while I was a child. Regarding drunkeness, I acknowledge this as a sin, but I am one of those folks who went to Mass hungover during a period of about a year while I was an undergrad in a secular college, and I found myself praying rather intensely while intoxicated. I believe those prayers opened my heart to the grace of God to avoid becoming a life-long alcoholic (praise be to God). Again, I am not encouraging sin, but I am encouraging that we should not give up on our relationship with God even when we do sin.
I do see your point that I am implying that Christians have a unique relationship with God that others do not share. Perhaps that is the wrong way for me to phrase my question. What I am trying to clarify is that there does seem to be a difference in the way we each approach prayer. You are correct that I should avoid a judegment about these differences. It is wrong for me to assume that one way is superior to the other. However, it does seem that there is a clear difference, even if these ways are equally valid, or even if Islam is superior. Do you agree with this assesment that there is a difference in approach to prayer?
Regarding your statement about the Trinity, I repeat what I have said elsewhere, Christians do not believe that God has partners apart from himself. We agree with your statement that God has no partners 100%. Therefore, how are we guilty of idolatry?
There is one God. The Bible reveals that the Father is God, that Christ is God, that the Holy Spirit is God, and that there is only one God. The Bible also reveals that the Father relates to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Son and the Father relate to the Holy Spirit. I repeat that I cannot fathom God's self-consciousness in these relationships. However, it is very clear in Biblical theology that God does not have a partner. A partner would be separate from God. We do not say or believe that Christ is God's partner. Rather, we say Christ IS God's self revelation to humanity.
It is not I who am twisting terms. It is you who are twisting the terms used by Christians, adding your own terms, and imposing your own understanding into the terms we employ. It is hard for me to accept the validity of your warnings of idolatry when you refuse to demonstrate that you understand what Christians say. The fact that you were brought up in a Christian household does not prove you ever understood the terms of the doctrine you reject. It is also hard for me take the warnings of the Qur'an against Trinitarians seriously when there is no indication from you or other Muslims or the Qur'an that any of you understand what we are really saying. Until you can argue against the Trinty without twisting our words, using words we don't use, or employing words in ways we don't employ them, you will not convince me that belief in the Trinty is idolatrous.
Jcecil...you have mentioned of reading the Quran...have you read the many verses which approach the topic of the trinity? or the verses which emphasize the unity of Allah, or God? I will post them here for you...as a reminder, inshaAllah...but in another post altogether. Trying to keep this more simple, and approach the topic of the thread at hand.
You have raised a point here in your last post, which perhaps I should have mentioned before. My problem is that I say (or type) some things...and sometimes leave out other things which I am thinking...wrongly thinking that I am conveying what I am intending...while all the time I am actually not conveying that at all.
The point that I am referring to is your mention that we all (muslims and christians) approach our prayers in different format and style.
To try to clarify a bit about the muslim prayer, I will tell you that there are mainly two types or formats of the prayer. 1-the more formal, structured prayer, which can be performed either singly or in congregation. and 2-the more personal, and simple and informal prayer, which is truly 'supplication' (in arabic, 'dua').
Now, the more formal structured format of the prayer (the physical) does also contain areas or sections or times in which we supplicate as well. This prayer itself is an exercise physically, mentally, and spiritually. There are varrying movements of standing, bowing, then standing again, prostrating face to the ground, then sitting, and then returning for standing again for another section of the same prayer. At the movements, there are certain verses, supplications, or simply words that are said in coordination with the movements and to indicate the upcoming movements. There are opportunities at the times of bowing and prostration and sitting, as well as the standing positions, for saying personal supplications as well as the more formal and universal supplications and verses from the Quran. The exercise physically is in the change of movement from one position to the other. The exercise mentally is the remembering of what to do and say at what times, as well as remembering verses of the Quran to be recited. The exercise spiritually is in the attempt to reach or approach the Creator...and in humbling one's self to asking for forgiveness and anything else that one may need or desire for this world or the next.
Although I know that Christians do have a formal prayer to some extent, it is truly incomparable to that of the Muslims. This is not said out of contempt or as insult...but truly an observation of experience.
It is this formal prayer which we are taught to ensure the greatest and highest possible extent of cleanliness for. Our clothes, our selves, and the place of the prayer is to be of the utmost possible human cleanliness. That excludes performing this prayer in places where ppl or animals deficate. This includes that the person who is intending to pray ensure his/her own cleanliness of not only clothing and prayer spot, but his/her own body as well. If a man and wife have had their relations, then they are to purify themselves before commencing to perform this formal prayer. If a woman is in her menses, then she is to wait until the period is over, and purify herself before commencing to perform her prayers. Same goes for a woman after childbirth. The same rules apply to one who has answered the call to nature...they must purify themselves before commencing to perform the ritual of the formal prayer.
All this is not included for the more simple and common supplication...although it is suggested that purity or attempt towards purification is desirable...but not a pre-requisite for the supplication. One may approach Allah through supplications at any time throughout the day, and in any condition. This is similar to what you mentioned as in your state of a hangover...you prayed quite severely and sincerely, as you have described. This sort of prayer is actually supplication, and is not comparable to the Muslim ritual of the formal prayer.
I hope that these statements help to clarify a bit on this topic of the prayer. As for the mentions of the trinity and the unity of God...I will approach that topic in a new thread, inshaAllah.
Lulua.
LAST EDITED ON 01-11-01 AT 00:27 AM (GMT)[p]That is much more clear. Thanks!
So, you are saying that you would encourage someone to pray supplications at all times, but not to pray formally at all times. This is simliar to the fact that I would NOT go to Mass naked and unwashed, but I might sing religious hymns to Allah while in I'm naked and dirty heading into the shower. That makes sense, and there really is no difference then.
You may be right that Christians pay less attention to posture. Catholics do make the sign of the cross, genuflect, kneel, bow, etc...and charismatics hold their hands up, etc.....But probably not as attentively as you or the pamphlet describe.
What about the image of Allah in Islam? Are you encouraged to make supplications to a loving father, brother, friend, or spouse as well as a king?
Regarding verses about the Trinity -- I am almost complete with reading the Qur'an a first time through. I realize that Muslims are encouraged to memorize the Qur'an -- but I'm wondering if you have resources for doing word searches. I would be interested in going back and re-reading every verse referring to Jesus, Christians, People of the Book, or Allah begetting a son in the Qur'an.
With the Bible, I can use a concordance or go to www.biblegateway.com or other such resources. Are there similar resources for word or phrase searches in the Qur'an available to those who have not memorized the text?
Ruqayyah
02-11-2001, 12:07
Bismillahi-Rrahmani-Rrahim.
Assalamulaikum to all.
Brother Jecil,
Okay,so you said there are 3 gods within 1 god.Hmm.Well if we try to look at this statement in the logical way of Tauhid,it is just...well,unlogic.
For example let's take "leader" to explain it all (I'll try my best,Insya'Allah).For every country,or every community,there can't be and will never ever be 2 leaders.If there are,one,for example will say:oh I want this state to be like this.And the other:no,it should be like that.And:no,no,no.like this.and:uh-uh-uh.Like that.You see,the whole country can collapse.There can't be 2 leaders or more ruling that one country.
This goes same to God.There can't be 2 or 3 and so on to be a god.I know you're sort of like saying that the god is one,the person inside the god is 3.Or is it:the god reveals himself as 3 different persons?
Okay,maybe I still don't understand what you were trying to say.If what you meant is:There are 3 similar gods in one god,that is impossible.Since god is not similar to anything or anywho or anywhat.He is supposed to be one.What He creates,is not the same as what He is,then He is known as the Creator.For example if you invent a car,does your face resembles a car?Of course not.If it does,you're not "inventing".You're not an "inventor" or "creator",same goes to god.
If what you meant is god reveals himself as 3 persons,then that's impossible too.In Islam,we believe only Muhammad (pbuh)got to see Allah.Nobody else does.Allah's power,His physical being,His everything is just too great for us to see Him in this physical world.
Okay,I know this topic is not associated with "Prayer",but well,since you've talked about it and all.
This is all I can explain.I'm still learning and Insya'Allah,I'll try my best to explain what I can.Islam is the most truthful religion.Allah is The One and Only God,and Muhammad is His Messenger.
Wassalam,
Ruqayyah Ramli
LAST EDITED ON 02-11-01 AT 01:20 PM (GMT)[p]>Bismillahi-Rrahmani-Rrahim.
>
>Assalamulaikum to all.
>
>Brother Jecil,
>
>Okay,so you said there are 3
>gods within 1 god.Hmm.Well if
>we try to look at
>this statement in the logical
>way of Tauhid,it is just...well,unlogic.
>
I agree 100% that the statement "there are 3 gods within 1 god" is illogical. That is NOT what I said. I said there are three persons in one God. Again, I state that you are misunderstanding the term "person". The term "person" (or "hypostasis" in ancient theology) designates an identity formed and completed only on the basis of relationship. The term does not refer to being, substance, essence, or nature. There is only one being that can properly be called God. The being called God reveals himself as three persons. In each of those persons, God reveals that the persons relate to one another. Thus, God is revealing that who and what "God-is-to-us" from the Bible is the same as who and what "God-is-to-himself".
>
>For example let's take "leader" to
>explain it all (I'll try
>my best,Insya'Allah).For every country,or every
>community,there can't be and will
>never ever be 2 leaders.If
>there are,one,for example will say:oh
>I want this state to
>be like this.And the other:no,it
>should be like that.And:no,no,no.like this.and:uh-uh-uh.Like
>that.You see,the whole country can
>collapse.There can't be 2 leaders
>or more ruling that one
>country.
>
There is one being or essense, and one divine will that operates in the persons of the Trinity. In the person of Christ, there are two wills; a human and a divine will. Because Christ is God by nature, his human will is perfectly aligned to his divine will. Thus, your leader anology falls short of the reality.
>This goes same to God.There can't
>be 2 or 3 and
>so on to be a
>god.I know you're sort of
>like saying that the god
>is one,the person inside the
>god is 3.Or is it:the
>god reveals himself as 3
>different persons?
>
It is that God reveals himself as three persons. However, God also reveals that each person relates to the other. For example, Christ prays to the Father. The Father sends the Spirit. The Spirit glorifies the father and the Son. Yet, the Bible clearly states in various ways that each person, Father, Son, and Spirit is God, and that there is only one God. Because we do not confuse categories of "person" and "being", there is no logical contradiction. However, we admit that this doctrine goes beyond reason and understanding. There are other aspects of experience that go beyond reason, such as love, freedom, beauty, faith, hope, and so forth. The doctrine of the Trinity does not help me understand the self-consciousness of God. Rather, it reminds me of infinite transcendence and incomprehensibility while affirming his intimate "personal" will to reveal himself to humanity. He loved humanity so much that he became one of us!
>Okay,maybe I still don't understand what
>you were trying to say.If
>what you meant is:There are
>3 similar gods in one
>god,that is impossible.Since god is
>not similar to anything or
>anywho or anywhat.He is supposed
>to be one.What He creates,is
>not the same as what
>He is,then He is known
>as the Creator.For example if
>you invent a car,does your
>face resembles a car?Of course
>not.If it does,you're not "inventing".You're
>not an "inventor" or "creator",same
>goes to god.
>
I think you are still misunderstanding me. I definitely am NOT saying that there are three "similar" beings. That would be idolatry at worse, and heresy at best. I am saying that each person within the Trinity is wholly God and that the one being properly called God acts 100% in each person of the Trinity.
>If what you meant is god
>reveals himself as 3 persons,then
>that's impossible too.In Islam,we believe
>only Muhammad (pbuh)got to see
>Allah.Nobody else does.Allah's power,His physical
>being,His everything is just too
>great for us to see
>Him in this physical world.
>
The gospel states that Christ is the glory of the Father, and that to see him is to see the Father. Yet, Christ prays to the Father and is distinct from the Father in terms of relationship. The gospel says that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God and the Word became flesh! (see John chapter 1, verses 1 and 14). I can provide many more exact quotes if needed. At any rate, we Christians do believe that a finite, created human being cannot comprehend God -- not even Mohammed. The person of Christ, however, is uncreated God who freely chose to assume an uncreated human nature in time from eternity. Thus, only through Christ can we come close to seeing God in our earthly reality. In the life to come, we will see him face to face as he is.
>
>Okay,I know this topic is not
>associated with "Prayer",but well,since you've
>talked about it and all.
>
That's cool. I don't mind talking about the Trinity.
>
>This is all I can explain.I'm
>still learning and Insya'Allah,I'll try
>my best to explain what
>I can.Islam is the most
>truthful religion.Allah is The One
>and Only God,and Muhammad is
>His Messenger.
>
I am also still learning -- in my case Islam. The biggest challenge I am having understanding is how the Qur'an can say it confirms the Scriptures of the People of the Book while it also denies the divinity of Christ and the Sonship theology. Either Mohammed is just plain mistaken in what he thought Christians believe, or there is some other way to interpret the Qur'an, or I am misunderstanding my own Christian faith, which I believe is fiercely monotheist. I say all this because the doctrine of the Trinity is the only doctrine about God that makes any sense at all out of the Scriptures of the People of the Book. Thus, the Qur'an cannot affirm and deny the Trinity at the same time, which it seesm to do by affirming our Scriptures. Part of my effort to understand this apparent contradiction in Islam is to define the Trinity as properly as I can to those who do not understand it, and let you point out why you think Mohammed made the statements he did.
>Wassalam,
>Ruqayyah Ramli
Hello, Jcecil.
Sorry for the delay in my reply...was out for a couple of days. And still going thru the other responses...so perhaps someone has already mentioned to you.
As for the word searches for Quran...most generally, particularly in the translation versions...there is an index at the end of the Quran..alphabetical which you can find references to the most common of terms (including Jesus as well as other important or popular topics of study).
Otherwise, there is much available in software along this lines as well. I personally have an excellent CD which is in fact a program of this kind...a search as well as testing program to help enable and ease memorization...as well as helping with the search. There are as well sites on the internet at which you can find such searches not only for the Quran, but for hadith as well.
Some of those sites:
www.islamicity.org
www.iiu.edu.my
www.islamworld.net
www.islaam.com
www.islam101.com
www.islamunveiled.com
www.islamicAU.org
www.muslimsonline.com
Just look for the link(s) which will forward you on to exploration into the Quran, or look for the 'search' mechanism.
I hope some of these links help you.
Lulua.
Dr Qaisar
06-11-2001, 21:00
As-salaamu-alaikum, ya muslimeen.
Greetings, jcecil3
Here's is a good search for the Qur'an from three different translators, Pickethall, A.Yusuf Ali and Mohammad Shakir. You may search for a word, a phrase or a particular verse number at the following URL:
HTTP://www.STG.BROWN.EDU/webs/quran_browser/pqeasy.shtml
Another URL is given below:
HTTP://www.USC.EDU/dept/MSA/reference/searchquran.html
Dr.Qaisar
LAST EDITED ON 06-11-01 AT 09:14 PM (GMT)[p]Thank you Dr. Quasir.
Dr Qaisar
11-11-2001, 17:19
Greetings, jcecil3
>The biggest challenge I am having
> understanding is how the Qur'an can say it confirms >the Scriptures of the People of the Book
> while it also denies the Divinity of Christ
>and the Sonhip theology. Either Mohammad
>is just plain mistaken in what he thought
>Christians believe, or there is some other way
>to interpret the Qur'an.
>I say all this because of the Trinity
>is the only doctrine about God that makes
>any sense at all out of the Scriptures of
>the People of the Book. Thus, the Qur'an cannot
> affirm and deny the Trinity at the same time,
>which it seems to do by confirming our Scriptures.
Let me begin by stating it has been noticed in your various posts here that you have repeatedly alluded to the Holy Qur'an as being "Mohammad's views, impressions,mistaken beliefs etc." It must be made very clear to you that Qur'an IS the Word & Revelation of God (Allah) to His last Prophet, as were the previous Revelations to the earlier prophets. Having said that, you as any other non-Muslim have the freedom to either accept or deny the Qur'an as the Word of God. This is no compulsion on your part to believe in it, but please REFRAIN from writing in future that it is in any way the "views, impressions or comments" of the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). The sayings, teachings, traditions, comments, practices of the Prophet (PBUH) are contained in the ‘Ahaadith‘ which are completely separate from the Divine Revealed text.
Now, onto your confusion regarding the so called "apparent contradiction" in the Qur'an that it "confirms the previous Scriptures while denying the Divinity of Christ." There is no contradiction at all! The Qur'an categorically and in no uncertain terms rejects the Concept of Trinity and only affirms the fact that Jesus was only a servant and a Messenger of God (Allah), like all the prophets. When the Qur'an states that it confirms the previous Scriptures, it means that it testifies to the message of the oneness & worship of the one true God (Allah) contained in all the previous Revelations & Books. As explained before, the original Revelation given to Prophet Moses is called the Taurat & and that given to Prophet Isa (Jesus) is named the "Injeel", may peace be upon both of them. The present day Bible (OT & NT) as they exist today do not reflect faithfully & accurately the original Revelations. These books have, undoubtably, undergone numerous changes & alterations in their long history at the hands of their custodians, the rabbis, monks, priests, church figures etc. what you have innocently termed as "the process of editing by the Church." Therefore, the NT derives it's authority & legitimacy from the benevolence of the Church, not from God directly. God had Revealed the "Injeel" to Jesus (PBUH) directly & thus, there was no need for the Church to intercede on behalf of the Scripture & thrust it's stamp of approval of Trinity onto the gullible flock. Thus, the need of the final Revelation of God to correct the alterations in the previous Scriptures while at the same time confirming the basic message of pure Monotheism and not some "spin" plastered onto the worship of the one true God. Inspite of the introduction of elements of human manipulation in the previous Scriptures, the present day Bible does, indeed, contain semblance of the original message, chiefly in the form of the Ten Commandents, the first & most important being:
"Thou shall worship only one God"
"Hear O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 27:46)
It is these altruisms contained in the previous Scriptures that the Qur'an confirms & reaffirms! Plain & simple truths. Facts which need no convincing or explanations or doctoring. And no institutions to explain cumbersome doctrines.
You have also mentioned that "the Trinity is the only doctrine about God that makes any sense out of the Scriptures of the People of the Book." Well, it didn't seem to make any sense at all to the other half of the People of the Book, the Jews. They, past & present, quite sensibly have rejected the absurdity of the doctrine, just like us Muslims!! Indeed, much credit has to be handed to your ‘cousins‘ for having stuck to the First Command of God, at least to the Orthodox Jews! and for having seen through the doctrine of Trinity. To give a crude analogy based on your own confession...."but each of them is God whole and entire", it would be evident to all to see that 1+1+1=3 and not one, but somehow mysteriously all 3 merge into one person, but surely, you will not accept this analogy. Thus, from the time of it's origins till today, no Doctor of Divinity could ever explain or rationalise Trinity and had to content themselves with ingenious incongruities as below:
"The doctrine of Trinity is beyond rational understanding and reminds us of the incomprehensibilty of God."
"The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life."
I, for one, am in complete agreement with the above! Trinity has remained only a "mystery" to both the faithful and unfaithful (Jews, Muslims etc.) alike!! Amazing, but the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit put together could not solve this eternal mystery, so how could it be expected of mere mortals to explain it? It has only turned into an expression of absolute blind faith. Even, the resident Spirit of the Church could not shed much needed light on this "mystery"!!
But no, it would have been a most simple task to explain it if the individual components of Trinity were to be unwound and accorded their rightful place & position. No mystery exists in the following eternal truths:
"the Lord our God is one Lord."
"There is no God but one God."
No explanation is needed to prove the above; they self-explanatory. No "spin" is needed to twist the simplicity of these truths into mysteries. Ask, Jesus, as it were, if his eternal legacy was to leave behind a "mystery"?? No, his teachings were free from manipulations & mysteries; plain & simple teachings of worshipping the one & only One God. But what has seduced you from your Lord??
Dr.Qaisar
LAST EDITED ON 15-11-01 AT 07:20 PM (GMT)[p]Dr. Quasir,
The argument that the Jews reject the Trinity is not pertinent, since the Jews also reject the entire New Testament and many Jews reject Jesus as a heretic or blasphemer. When Christians discuss the issue of the Trinity with Jews, the question is whether Christ was foretold in the Old Testament and whether there are any Trinitarian passages in the Old Testament. In other words, the Jews do not have any appearence of confirming our Scripture and denying it at one and the same time. There is no "apparent contradiction" in Judaism regarding attitudes toward the New Testament.
The issue I raised with the Qur'an is that Dawood's version seemed to state that the Christian scriptures are true and valid and confirmed by the Qur'an. You have explained the historical context and accurate translation of these statements in the Qur'an elsewhere. I understand your argument to be that the Arabic does not actually use a word that can be translated as "scripture" as Dawood has done, and where the Qur'an does use a word meaning "scripture", it most frequently is used in reference to Jews and non-trinitarian Christians in the city of Medina, who did not follow the New Testament. I think you're recent explainaition under "Who Invented The Trinity" posted by Lulua was an adequate explanaition of the Islamic position. I don't know Arabic, but your argument seems plausible and internally consistent. There probably were non-trinitarian Christian groups who did not use the New Testament in the Middle East in the time period discussed (Manichians, Gnostics, and even a few lingering Docetists). I'd need to research all this, but I admit that your response is internally consistent in its logic.
Despite the fact that your explanaition is internally consistent, I am not saying that I accept the Qur'an as the infallible word of God....
Internal consistency alone is not the test of truth. Gross internal inconsistency would be a sign of falsity, but I am well aware that many contradictions outsiders find in a religion are often only apparent contradictions. This holds not only for Islam, but for Christianity, Hinduism, Bhuddism, and all the great religions of the world. I believe that Firefly demonstrated this in answering the 101 so-called contradictions in the Bible, and I have attempted to do the same with posts by Asif.
It is possible to have two equally consistent world-views. For example, Aristotle's physics is internally consistent. So is Newton's. So is Einstein's theory of relativity. The test for truth in science is not the internal constistency of the theory. Rather, the test in science is the predictive power of a theory to handle new information and anomolies from outside the system in which the theory was developed.
Regarding my references to the Qur'an being what Mohammed says, I honestly mean no disrespect. However, please understand that I would consider it dishonest and heresy at best to say that the Qur'an is the Word of God when I do not believe that it is the Word of God. The closest I can come to a compromise you might accept is to state "Mohammed says that Allah revealed in the Qur'an...." In my internally consistent worldview, Jesus IS the word of God, and the words of the Bible are inspired by the Spirit of Christ.
Regarding "mystery", even the human experience of love is a mystery. That does not mean that the word has no meaning and the experience of love cannot be known. Rather, "mystery" denotes that a concept is beyond total logical comprehension. With a "mystery", rational analysis can only take you so far in apprehending the truth conveyed in the mystery. We can say the same for the mystery of faith, hope, freedom, beauty, etc....
The fact that Islam is "simple" (your word -- not mine) does not mean that it is more "true" than another religion that embraces mystery and complexity. Indeed, with the analogy of science, the more complex and nuanced theories have greater predictive power and more "truth" than the simpler theories. Perhaps the analogy falls short in a discussion of religion. That is a question open to debate.
Well, I know that this discussion has developed to include the viewpoints and understandings of many other than myself.
But...I felt like I should add this last understanding of my own.
It all seems to boil down to a point of faith. Regardless if the religion is complex and containing much unexplained mystery, or if it is simple and logical, appealing to the senses of the human's thinking capacity.
Throughout the Quran, we are given parables and examples of the Signs of Allah throughout nature and life in general, shown and explained quite fully of their nature, and then asked to explore for ourselves and to realize those points of nature, and their trueness in respect to what is described within the Quran. That in itself is a proof of the Quran's truth and actual word of God.
But then again...it is something that boils down to faith. For the knowledge of all the books of the world (religious books as well as common knowledge and science books) cannot help anyone in any way without even the smallest morsel of faith.
For the non-muslims visiting this site, and viewing and reading the on-going discussions (particularly on this comparative religion forum)...we muslims can explain all day long, everyday..and show to you the inconsistencies and questionability and unreliability of today's Christianity...and compare to the Quran...but without a bit of faith that the Quran is in fact God's word...then we have little else that we can help you with.
I believe it is for you (the non-muslims) now...to look, see, compare, and know for yourselves...and if you still reject Islam as a volitile and true religion, and as the true religion for mankind, the natural evolvement of the previous religions, then that responsibility remains with you.
As a precautionary step, for my own self...to rid from my shoulders the continuing responsibility...I invite any non-muslims reading this to accept Islam. Islam is nothing more than the true worship of God...the one and only God...and accepting Mohammed (SAAW) as His prophet and messenger. All else of Islam (the prayers, the fasting, the teachings of the Quran in general) is nothing more than the implementation into a daily lifestyle that simple statement of witness.
There is no trinity in Islam, and no equating any of creation with the Creator. It is simple, and logical, and true.
When we accept Mohammed (SAAW) as His messenger and prophet, we are not rejecting those who came before him, but rather acknowledging their prophethood and messengership, and including Mohammed (SAAW) as the seal or final of the long line of prophets and messengers to the world.
If you should accept, fine...and good for you...and if you should reject, then that is also fine. But please do bear witness, and be warned...that you have been given ample opportunity and knowledge and information...and yet still you have rejected the message.
A personal reminder from me to you (the non-muslims): Beware of being arrogant and abstinent and missing the boat. Do not wait until it is too late for you.
Lulua.
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