View Full Version : two questions for christians
Om_Mohammed
29-05-2001, 04:35
I have two basic and major questions for all christians who are visiting and witnessing this discussion board. Please consider these questions well, thoughtfully, and most seriously, answering me in the shortest yet most honest possible manners. This is not a ploy of any kind, but an attempt to better understanding.
First: Do you seriously and truly believe and follow all that is in your bible? By the term 'bible', I am referring to the combination of the Old and New Testaments, not merely the New Tesstament, as so many modern-day christians seem to take only the advice and revelation given in the NT, over the OT.
Second: Who is it that blesses, or bestows mercy? Is it man, or who is it that bestows blessings and mercy upon all of creation?
Om Mohammed.
First: Do you seriously and truly believe and follow all that is in your bible? By the term 'bible', I am referring to the combination of the Old and New Testaments, not merely the New Tesstament, as so many modern-day christians seem to take only the advice and revelation given in the NT, over the OT.
--> Yes, I do. Well, in this matter, I think we(Muslims & Christians) differ on the intrepretations of the Scriptures as you can see from the vast discussions that has been going on. This is to respond to your claim that "as so many modern-Christians....". Studying the Scriptures involves both the OT and NT. I haven't come across Christians who based their faith solely on the NT alone.
Second: Who is it that blesses, or bestows mercy? Is it man, or who is it that bestows blessings and mercy upon all of creation?
--> Only God.
>I have two basic and major
>questions for all christians who
>are visiting and witnessing this
>discussion board. Please consider these
>questions well, thoughtfully, and most
>seriously, answering me in the
>shortest yet most honest possible
>manners. This is not a
>ploy of any kind, but
>an attempt to better understanding.
>
>
>First: Do you seriously and truly
>believe and follow all that
>is in your bible? By
>the term 'bible', I am
>referring to the combination of
>the Old and New Testaments,
>not merely the New Tesstament,
>as so many modern-day christians
>seem to take only the
>advice and revelation given in
>the NT, over the OT.
Yes, I am committed to follow in the most serious and deepest way I possibly can ALL that the Bible commands me. You must understand however that the New Covenant presents a neccessary, and fulfilling perspective on the Old, and that Jesus is the focal point of that perspective.
>
>Second: Who is it that blesses,
>or bestows mercy? Is it
>man, or who is it
>that bestows blessings and mercy
>upon all of creation?
This is an interesting question. Why are you asking it?
Only God can bless or make anyone, or anything a blessing. Only the Judge can bestow mercy. It is He who desires, and only He who can enable a man to be merciful.
>Jared
Om_Mohammed
04-06-2001, 11:18
OK, please bear with me here...I am quoting for you some passages from the bible, which show evidences that there is belief that other than God can and/or does bless. This is totally different from the Islamic concept of God. In Islam...it is totally and only God who can and does descend blessings on His creatures, and not the other way around. In some of the following passages, not only is it implied that people (creations) are blessing other persons, but as well...bestowing their blessings on God, as well. This is totally preposterous in the sight of Islam. It is not God who is in need of our blessings, nor are we capable of descending any blessings on Him. It is from Him that the blessings originate, and only He can bestow blessings upon any of His creation, as He sees fit to do so. To claim that you 'bless God' or 'bless the Lord' is a blaspheme.
To address another point which was raised by your responses...for you, Jared replied: 'Yes, I am committed to follow in the most serious and deepest way I possibly can ALL that the Bible commands me.'
I will respond with more questions to this comment in another post, inshaAllah.
for the quotes about blessings:
Evidences of belief of the ability or power of people to bless one another:
Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."Genesis 32:26
Then Joseph brought his father Jacob in and presented him before Pharaoh. After Jacob blessed Pharaoh, Genesis 47:7
"They are the sons God has given me here," Joseph said to his father. Then Israel said, "Bring them to me so I may bless them." Genesis 48:9
the Angel who has delivered me from all harm --may he bless these boys. May they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly upon the earth." Genesis 48:16
Take your flocks and herds, as you have said, and go. And also bless me." Exodus 12:32
"Tell Aaron and his sons, `This is how you are to bless the Israelites. Say to them: Numbers 6:23
While the whole assembly of Israel was standing there, the king turned around and blessed them. I Kings 8:14
David asked the Gibeonites, "What shall I do for you? How shall I make amends so that you will bless the LORD's inheritance?"
II Samuel 21:3
On the following day he sent the people away. They blessed the king and then went home, joyful and glad in heart for all the good things the LORD had done for his servant David and his people Israel. I Kings 8:66
Then all the people left, each for his own home, and David returned home to bless his family. I Chronicles 16:43
The priests and the Levites stood to bless the people, and God heard them, for their prayer reached heaven, his holy dwelling place. II Chronicles 30:27
The man who was dying blessed me; I made the widow's heart sing. Job 29:13
************************************************** ***********
Now...for some evidences of the belief that it is within our human powers to bestow blessings on God...such a blaspheme...as if God were in need of our pitiful souls...let alone our hopeless and helpless blessings!!
I bless the LORD who gives me counsel; in the night also my heart instructs me. (Psalms 16:7)
My foot stands on level ground; in the great congregation I will bless the LORD.
(Psalms 26:12)
Blessed be the LORD! for he has heard the voice of my supplications.
(Psalms 28:6)
**And...what if the Lord did not hear those supplications? He will not recieve blessings? Hmmm...
Blessed be the LORD, for he has wondrously shown his steadfast love to me when I was beset as in a besieged city. (Psalms 31:21)
Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting! Amen and Amen. (Psalms 41:13)
Bless our God, O peoples, let the sound of his praise be heard, (Psalms 66:9)
Blessed be God, because he has not rejected my prayer or removed his steadfast love from me! (Psalms 66:20)
Blessed be the Lord, who daily bears us up; God is our salvation. [Selah](Psalms 68:19)
"Bless God in the great congregation, the LORD, O you who are of Israel's fountain!" (Psalms 68:26)
Terrible is God in his sanctuary, the God of Israel, he gives power and strength to his people. Blessed be God! (Psalms 68:35)
Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who alone does wondrous things. (Psalms 72:18)
Blessed be his glorious name for ever; may his glory fill the whole earth! Amen and Amen! (Psalms 72:19)
May his name endure for ever, his fame continue as long as the sun! May men bless themselves by him, all nations call him blessed! (Psalms 72:17)
Long may he live, may gold of Sheba be given to him! May prayer be made for him continually, and blessings invoked for him all the day! (Psalms 72:15)
Arise, O God, plead thy cause; remember how the impious scoff at thee all the day! (Psalms 74:22)
Blessed be the LORD for ever! Amen and Amen. (Psalms 89:52)
Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, (Psalms 103:2)
Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! (Psalms 103:20)
Bless the LORD, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will! (Psalms 103:21)
Bless the LORD, all his works, in all places of his dominion. Bless the LORD, O my soul! (Psalms 103:22)
Bless the LORD, O my soul! O LORD my God, thou art very great! Thou art clothed with honor and majesty, (Psalms 104:1)
Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD! (Psalms 104:35)
Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting! And let all the people say, "Amen!" Praise the LORD! (Psalms 106:48)
Blessed be the name of the LORD from this time forth and for evermore (Psalms 113:2)
But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD! (Psalms 115:18)
I love the LORD, because he has heard my voice and my supplications. Because he inclined his ear to me, therefore I will call on him as long as I live. (Psalms 116:1-2)
Blessed be thou, O LORD; teach me thy statutes! (Psalms 119:12)
Blessed be the LORD, who has not given us as prey to their teeth! (Psalms 124:6)
O house of Israel, bless the LORD! O house of Aaron, bless the LORD! O house of Levi, bless the LORD! You that fear the LORD, bless the LORD! Blessed be the LORD from Zion, he who dwells in Jerusalem! Praise the LORD (Psalms 135:19-21)
A Psalm of David. Blessed be the LORD, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle; (Psalms 144:1)
My mouth will speak the praise of the LORD, and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever. (Psalms 145:21)
************************************************** ************
You will also note, if you read in the book of Psalms, beginning approximately at about the 74th chapter, that there is a feeling or sense of despair, lost hope, and lost faith in God, and therefore a loss of bestowing blessing upon Him. Glory be to Him who created this universe in it's vastness and expansiveness...He is in need of no one, nor anyone's prayers, much less anyone's approval or blessing or encouragement. No...it is we who are in need of Him, of His everlasting mercy and boutiful blessings, and of His true guidance.
You have told me that you believe 100% unquestionably that the bible is God's words and commandments to man...and you have also told me that it is only God who can bestow blessings. Yet...here...in quotes from your own bible...we are seeing something quite different than that belief.
My reasoning in pointing out such difference in your understanding and underlying belief, in comparance with that which is within today's existing bible...is to help to show to you the ingrain intuition of man to the true and pure religion...that is the religion with it's eminating practice of monotheism, which is embodied in the belief and realization that it is only God who can bestow blessings upon His creation, and not the other way around.
These verses, on this particular topic of discussion, only goes further to show the questionablity and the doubtability of the truth of today's existing bible as the whole and complete word of God. It has been admittedly tampered by men thru the ages, adding to and taking from that which they wish or deem necessary. If it was truly and purely God's word...it would need (nor would God allow) no abrogations from man whatsoever.
If you are truly persons of thinking, which I am inclined to believe, and not merely parroting that which is preached to you in the churches, you will ponder on this topic, as well as others, without coming back with quick retorts in a meagre and useless defense of this.
Examine the Quran...you will find no such comparison to that which I have brought to you from the bible.
May Allah guide us all to that which is the straight path. May He help those who are truly seeking truth and salvation.
Om Mohammed.
Two things,
Any good dictionary will inform you that the word 'blessing'
has a range of meaning that includes "To honor as holy" So when the psalmist 'blesses' God he is honoring Him as holy, not presuming to benefit God. Also, to say that God is 'blessed' , is to say that He is held in veneration.
Also there is a way in which God enables a man to bless another man, for instance if I were in poverty and someone helped me to get back on my feet, I could say that what that person did was a blessing to me and my family. In this way a blessing is defined as 'something promoting or contributing to well-being.'
Of course, the person who knows God knows that all blessings ultimately come from Him. Yet it should seem obvious that it is possible for God to enable people to be a blessing to each other, and that the words 'bless, blessed or blessing' within their common definition do not represent a blasphemy in any of the qoutes you used. Why create an an illogical and incorrect definition of a word in order to jsutify your accusations?
Om_Mohammed
04-06-2001, 17:28
It is because...if you would read in Psalms, as well as in other places in the bible itself...that the definition that you are giving of bless or blessings is similar or the same to the word praise. I can understand your justification in that manner. However, the word praise is used sometimes, when bless or blessings is used at other times. The definition you are giving of blessings is the same as praise. So...why did they not use the word praise better? There is an obvious and absolute difference in the meanings of the two words. And...if the meaning is truly as you are trying to explain, then that other word, i.e. praise...would have been a much better choice. Why create the confusion to begin with? There is just too much inconsistency to give a feeling of understanding and a line of completeness.
Read in the book of Psalms only, let alone the other books of the bible, and you shall see what I mean by the intermittent use of the word praise vs. bless.
Om Mohammed.
Om Mohammed,
You said:
(>It is because...if you would read
>in Psalms, as well as
>in other places in the
>bible itself...that the definition that
>you are giving of bless
>or blessings is similar or
>the same to the word
>praise. I can understand your
>justification in that manner. However,
>the word praise is used
>sometimes, when bless or blessings
>is used at other times.
>The definition you are giving
>of blessings is the same
>as praise. So...why did they
>not use the word praise
>better? There is an obvious
>and absolute difference in the
>meanings of the two words.
>And...if the meaning is truly
>as you are trying to
>explain, then that other word,
>i.e. praise...would have been a
>much better choice. Why create
>the confusion to begin with?
>There is just too much
>inconsistency to give a feeling
>of understanding and a line
>of completeness. )
Please understand, since you are concerned( in post 3) that I do not just parrot what the church teaches but actually use my mind, that I became a Christian while I was alone working as a hired hand on a farm out in the deep country. I was not attending any church gathering, no one taught me, no one nudged me along, no one fed me church doctrine, no television evangelists exhorted me to convert. I only read the Bible by myself and prayed to God. I did both in earnest. So, I faced the Bible as it is, without supplemental commentary to ease and guide me as I considered and studied the words.
God alone is good. Yet we eat a piece of cake and say that it is 'good'. God alone is good, yet sometimes we may say of someone, "He does many good things" and everyone understands that there is a simple sense in which we mean this and that it is not a blasphemy against God.
God alone can create. He created everything out of nothing. Yet there is a sense in which we can say that man creates things, and it is not a blasphemy against God.
God alone can save us. Yet there are occasions in which it is appropriate to say " That person saved my life." and we are not lying or blaspheming.
I may say, "My God guides me." Since I said that He is (MY) God, this may seem to imply that I am indicating some ownership or possession of Him. But, on the contrary, there is obviously a sense in which a person can say "He is my God" and mean that "He is the God that I obey and worship."
God alone rules over the affairs of men. Yet there is a sense in which men rule over other men, and to say this is not a blasphemy against God.
Only God understands mankind and all of His creation, yet He enables men to understand it to a certain degree and even gives mankind some knowledge of Himself.
We praise God alone, yet there is a sense in which we may also 'praise' a son or daughter for doing well in school.
So, language itself is complex and subtle. And really, if anything, language is the source of the 'confusion' of which you speak , not the Bible.
'Praise' and 'Bless' are two words that describe different aspects of worship. Praise means to extol or exalt. Bless means to honor as holy.
Sincerely,
Jared
Om_Mohammed
05-06-2001, 18:52
Jared...first of all...let me clarify myself and my position a bit. Yes, of course I am concerned...for you and for all who are apparently ignoring the message of Islam. It is in front of you, it is available for you, yet you are not grasping it...and it concerns me deeply. I meant no insult to you by even remotely mentioned 'parroting' (I really hate that term)...and if you will return to that message (3)...you will notice that in fact, I consider you to be a person who ponders and considers and is a thinking person.
My quote from message #3:
'If you are truly persons of thinking, which I am inclined to believe, and not merely parroting that which is preached to you in the churches, you will ponder on this topic, as well as others, without coming back with quick retorts in a meagre and useless defense of this.'
Your rendition of your path to christianity in itself...is evidence enough of the ingrain intuition in man (all of man, actually) to search for and yearn for the one God, the one Guidance, the one Light.
Islam is something, a religion, a way of life, something that was divinely revealed to mankind, much like that of christianity and judaism, and the religions before (that of Abraham and Noah, etc.) ... which is undeniably a part of this world for the rest of time. It is not some passing phase...but rather one of the revealed divine religions. And, in that light, it is the third in the consecutive sequence of the three major religions of the world. Each consecutive religion expanding upon that which came previously, expanding and improving, abrogating and renewing that which was before it. Each consecutive religion has been an improvement on that which came before it.
To pass off Islam for something less than what it is...a revealed religion, a guidance for mankind, is to deny one's self the opportunity of that guiding light.
Jared...you have stated to us your way that you came into christianity...by reading the bible, being directed by that bible. Still, you cannot ignore nor make little of the surrounding influence of the society that you live in. Perhaps there was no direct influence of interaction with ministers, a church, t.v. or radio programs or other literature, but yet the society that you live in is most generally inclined towards christianity. Otherwise...how else did you even have access to a bible in the first place?
To really know and understand Islam...you should read the Quran. It is the source of guidance and direction for muslims, and is the best source to find truth and real explanation of Islam.
Also, I would like to address one point that you raised in your last post. I could very well address all the points in this same vein, but have chosen only this one. I am sure that you will get the gist of what I am getting at.
You said:
'God alone can save us. Yet there are occasions in which it is appropriate to say " That person saved my life." and we are not lying or blaspheming.'
In accordance to Islam, if we say something like this, we are actually blaspheming...even if perhaps it is unintentional. You see...the Islamic outlook and understanding of things in this life is like this: That the supreme power of all things rests with God and God alone. In other words, even if perhaps a person or anything is a vehicle or a way in which a person dies, or is saved from death, or is cured from illness....still none of that could have been accomplished without the permission and will of God. He and only He is the ultimate in power and decision in all things. So...it would be for a muslim to say and believe this: 'So and so saved my life by the permission of God.' or...perhaps...'So and so was killed by such and such an action (car accident, for instance)...by the will of God.' and...etc. and so on. I am sure that you are getting the idea of it by now. All things...regardless of the physical or human interference in this world...regardless of the means of the cause...still the ultimate decision in all that happens is the will of God. Have you ever heard of terrible car crashes...or perhaps seen the remains of a car accident...or perhaps a burned out home...something in which it seems humanly impossible that anyone could have gotten out alive...and yet those victims inside sometimes come out without even the slightest bruise or scratch? It is the will of God. I have witnessed such miracles...such evidences from accidents. What about the one who has had a heart attack? They have gone beyond the line of death...yet they come miraculously back to life again. Nothing less than the will and permission of God can do such a thing. Even the most modern of medical sciences cannot bring the dead back to life. What about the many miracles that Jesus himself performed? Bringing the dead back to life, healing the leapers, curing the sick..etc...all was done ONLY thru the permission and will of God. Although there was a physical and human cause for the happening of things...yet it was not possible without the will and permission of God. The ultimate permission.
Om Mohammed.
'
LAST EDITED ON 15-10-01 AT 10:03 PM (GMT)[p]I do follow the whole of the Bible as I understand it (or acknowledge I have sinned when I fail). I do believe that the entire Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
However, I also believe that divine inspiration occurs through a process where the authors themselves are not necessarily aware they are writing Scripture (and there are Biblical passages that would confirm this interpretation).
Each author wrote in the language, genre, style, idioms, and ideas that were prevelant at the time a Scripture was written. Thus, every verse must be understood in context.
By contexts, I am referring to literary context (the intent of the author), historical and cultural context (to get at the principles the author intended, rather than legalistic superstition), and the context of the whole of Scripture (since God is ultimately the author).
There are rules in the Old Testament that I think Christians can and should understand the principle behind the law, but not necessarily act on the letter of the law. They were written in a different historical context and to follow them literally would be to miss the point the author intended. Furthermore, there are later writings that clarify this of earlier writings. Yet, the principles remain unchanging.
There are also things I learn by reading and praying over the images of God used by another culture and another time that challenge some of my modern assumptions. I think God intends us to be challenged by his word. I turn to the Church for guidence to understand what the Spirit is saying to me, and how to discern the difference between appropriate challenge, and a legalistic misinterpretation of the letter of the law.
This requires prayer and study, and I believe that I am aided in the journey by the Sacred Tradition of the Church. I can profit by the scholars, saints, and giants of the faith who have gone before me, especially to clear up apparent contradictions and obscurities. There are still issues I am researching -- God gives me a life-time to complete the search. I have the Holy Spirit to help me, because Christ promised the Spirit to the Church throughout all time.
Regarding your question about blessings and forgiveness, I agree with the response that says different authors at different times used these words in different ways. Thus, a detailed answer would be complex. However, the simple answer is that I believe that human beings mediate blessings and forgiveness which ultimately comes from God. Even when blessing God, it is the Holy Spirit dwelling within me blessing the Father and the Son! And when I forgive an enemy, I become a sign of Christ's forgiveness to that person. I am an instrument of God -- or, to put it Biblically, I am a temple of the Holy Spirit!
Good day for everyone.
The faith is what we believe. Who is right or who is wrong, no one can tell. Torah, Zabur, Bible and Qur'an + Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, etc has got their own reference, still as long as anyone believe and happy with what they believe, we all should respect.
The questions imposed actually nonsense. The questions are like "what is behind the wall?" where nobody can see it. Anyone can guess anything and believe anything will be behind the wall. The wall is the "hereafter", if there is one.
We all can live and be happy and have fun by respecting each other. We do not need to accuse someone will go to heaven or hell or condemn anyone. Let's leave that job to God or Gods. Whether God is one or many, the fact remains. Let's find out in hereafter.
Here on this earth let's live together as brotherhood of mankind and have fun be happy. Respect the differences.
The reference of living is the nature. Who creates the nature, who bothers. Let's enjoy what is given. Nature never lie. Any scriptures from God definately never against the nature. Take any knowledge for our betterment in life. Believing in superstition will not bring us anywhere.
Luque
(Islamic Logicist)
Very intersting perspective -- and one that doesn't fit with the stereotypes of Islam portrayed in the West. What is an "Islamic Logicist"?
I agree that we should all respect one another, and that fun is not antithetic to an authentic religious spirit.
Indeed, I have to admit that religious debate is fun to me if done respectfully.
I know some Christian missionaries in Papua New Guinea, where people were isolated from the rest of the world until the 1950's. The missionaries say that the people were shocked when the Christians arrived and said "God is good" without being struck by lightening. In their prior world view, the gods were apparently malevolent beings whom you followed in absolute fear with strange rituals. In his book, "How the Irish Saved Civilization", Thomas Cahill expresses the same sentiment about how Christianity was truly good news to Irish pagans who felt they had to sacrifice human beings to the gods!
While I do believe that all religions convey some truth, and people deserve basic human rights and basic repect, I also believe that ideas have consequences. To use secular examples, Nazism, Communism, and Capitalism are ideas -- and we've seen the consequences of each in the twentieth century.
You are correct that there is much we cannot know (much behind the wall). Perhaps healthier discussion ensues when we drop the condemnations to hell, and share personal stories, clarify the values at stake, and share our personal stories of faith and conversion. At the same time, doctrine does have implications on our attitudes and behavior.
Do you agree, or do you believe that it is unimportant what we believe?
Fadhilah
02-11-2001, 13:26
Bismillahi-Rrahmani-rrahim
Assalamualaikum to all:
Christians believe that Jesus is GOD and what Jesus said was from HIMSELF.
=> Book John, 8:39-40: Jesus said to them, "....but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I HEARD FROM GOD....."
(The Revised Standard Version)
=>Book John, 12:44: And Jesus cried out and said, "...49: For I have not spoken on my own authority. The Father who sent me has himself give me commandment what to say and what to speak. 50: What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me".
(The Revised Standard Version)
So what do these 2 verses mean?
Fadhilah Ramli
LAST EDITED ON 02-11-01 AT 01:57 PM (GMT)[p]Christians believe that there is a distinction of persons within the one being called God. The term "person" refers to an identity that is formed and completed on the basis of relationship to another. The term "person" answers the question "Who?"
However, the term "being" refers to nature, essence, or substance, and answers the question "What?"
The "Logos" (Word) proceeds eternally from the Father without begginning or end -- similar to the way heat and light are a flame and proceed from a flame -- or similar to a thought existing in the mind of an individual while not being separate from that individual.
Within the one God, there are three persons whose eternal distinction is established by their relationship to each other. Each person is one in being, nature, essence, or substance. Each person is one also in the divine will.
The Logos, being wholly and fully divine in nature, freely assumed a human nature in time from eternity. In his human nature, he was born of a woman, and had a human will perfectly aligned to his divine will. Thus, he is true God and true man. Yet, just as in eternity, he relates to the Father and the Spirit as "person".
In our own human experience, we know what it is like to have trouble remembering something that we once learned. The knowledge is in our minds, but we can experience problems calling it forth to conscious thought.
Likewise, Jesus' human nature was fully human. His human mind grew in wisdom and even at his ascension did not know the time of the day of general resurrection. He grew tired like we do. He experienced just anger. He cried. He grew hungry and tired, just like us. He was even tempted, but never sinned. And he prayed to his Father like we do, but with an intimacy never seen by any prophet, priest, or king before him.
Thus, Jesus is the divine as human and the human as divine. He is the revelation of the human face of God. By becoming human, God revealed in Christ our own human dignity. The divine became human so that humanity might become divine, sharing in divine life through relationship with the persons of the Trinity! Only as God can the person and work of Jesus have universal significance. Only by being fully human can his person and work have HUMAN menaing and significance.
So -- to answer your question, Christians have never denied that the three persons of the Trinity are distinct based on relationship one to the other. Yet, the Bible is quite clear that these three persons are one and the same divine being, essence, nature and substance. They act with one will and one accord, and they are the same being acting at all times.
If you need me to, I can provide Scriptures to support every one of the assertions above. I have also written extensively in other responses on this forum addressing this issue. Basically, there are about 700 passages of the Bible that affirm that there is one God, that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternally distinct in relationship one to the other.
I know this is difficult to understand. Christians typically say that this is a mystery that is "apprehended" rather than "comprehended". It is important to note, however, that by keeping a clear distinction between the terms "person" and "being", there is no logical contradiction in the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Yet, like faith, hope, love, freedom, and beauty, this is a truth that goes beyond mere human reason.
Fadhilah
03-11-2001, 11:59
Bismillahirrahmanirrahim
Assalamualaikum to all:
Christians if you say that Jesus said he's god, then please give us (muslim) one or two verses from the Bible that shows that Jesus SAID HE is god.
-Fadhilah Ramli
You asked for only a couple. Here goes.....
"When I caught sight of him, I fell down at his feet as though dead. He touched me with his right hand and said, 'Do not be afraid. I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST, the One who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.'" (Revelations 1:17-18) In this passage, Christ is using a title reserved for God alone in Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the Lord, Isreal's King and redeemer, the Lord of hosts; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST; There is no God but me."
"Jesus said to them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.' So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus went out of the temple area." (John 8:58-59) In this verse, Jesus uses the very name of God to refer to himself referring to the name given to Moses (pbuh) when Moses (pbuh)asked God for his name, "God replied, 'I AM WHO AM.' Then he added, 'This is what you shall tell the Isrealites; I AM sent me to you." (Exodus 3:14). Jesus' listeners understood what he was saying so clearly that they sought to stone him to death.
The Greek Old Testament, called the Septuagint, translates Exodus 3:14 ("I AM Who AM") in Greek as "HO ON" , while the author of the Gospel of John 8:58, translates Christ's message into Greek as "EGOI EMEI". However, this misses the point, because the author of John also states in his prologue "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."(John 1:1), but then goes on to say "And the Word became flesh." (John 1:14).
You may want to discard the Gospel of John's prologue by stating that these are John's words, and not Jesus' words. However, it is one and the same author who is writing the "EGOI EMEI" saying. Why did he not use the Septuagint Greek, "Ho ON"? Because that could have been too easily translated as "Before Abraham was, God IS." In other words, the author uses "EGOI EMEI" in order to clarify that it is Jesus who is claiming to be divine! But in Aramaic, "I AM" and "God IS" would both be said with the word "Yahweh".
The Jews recognized Jesus was claiming divinity and considered it blasphemy at Jesus' trial when he said, "But I tell you; From now on you will see 'the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming in the clouds of heaven.'" (Matthew 26:64) In this verse, the Jews understood Christ's claim to divinity because they were familiar with the passage, "As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a Son of Man coming, on the clouds of heaven; when he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, and his kingdom shall not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:13-14) This is probably one of the clearest Old Testament passages referring to separate persons within the God-head, along with the opening to Psalm 110 that starts "The Lord said to my Lord".
Over and over throughout the New Testament, Jesus does things that observers know that only God can do; such as forgive sins, heal on the Sabbath, control nature, etc....It was these deeds and words that got him crucified! But he was vindicated in the resurrection (Alleluia!).
Even atheist historical-critical scholars admit that it is clear that all the New Testament authors are declaring Jesus to be more than human and to be a divine being. When we strip out every verse of the New Testament that refers to Christ divinity, we are left with a handful of parables.
NonMuslimGirl
28-07-2004, 04:10
First: Do you seriously and truly believe and follow all that is in your bible? By the term 'bible', I am referring to the combination of the Old and New Testaments, not merely the New Tesstament, as so many modern-day christians seem to take only the advice and revelation given in the NT, over the OT.
First, I must say that there are different Christian churches and some of them disagree about their position towards the Bible. I am a Roman Catholic so I will answer from my experience and religious education which can be different from other sisters'/brothers'
We believe that the Bible was inspired by God and not dictated directly by Him. For example, we don't believe that Adam and Eve and the whole creation story related in the Genesis actually happened as related there. We accept that this and othere parts of the Old Testament are metaphors to explain creation and God's action in the history.
We also know that the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament were not written by Jesus himself but by his followers. These followers told (and eventually wrote) His teachings in a style that could be understood and remembered by the people. They didn't write every single word Jesus said neither they related everything in the same order it happened.
It's widely accepted by Catholic scholars that the 4 Gospels colleted the testimony of people who lived with Jesus and those who learned His teaching the first years after his death. So when it's said in the Gospels "Jesus said this" or "Jesus did that" we accept it as true because it was related that way by His companions and reliable witnesses.
On the other hand, we don't forget that the Gospels and actually all the other books in the Bible were written by men living in a specific time and society. That society, for example, was highly sexist and treated women and children like no-persons. So as much as we respect i.e. Saint Paul, we don't forget he was a Jew and he could not help thinking as one. And even when Jesus was always fair to women* and treated them as equals, sometimes Saint Paul didn't do it.
* it's evident by the language used in the Gospels that they were written by men. Among other things, they only mention women and children when they don't have other possibilty. Still, they couldn't help showing that Jesus' attitude was quite open and different to the writers'
Finally, I must point that sadly most of the Catholic people don't receive the proper religious education. For many centuries, common people were forbid to read the Bible and kept in ignorance but those in (political and/or religious) power. Until these days, if you ask a Catholic about the Bible, it's highly probable that he/she won't know anything.
Second: Who is it that blesses, or bestows mercy? Is it man, or who is it that bestows blessings and mercy upon all of creation?
For us there is only one God and that is GOD. We don't believe that Jesus and the holy Spirit are another gods. God "father", "son" (Jesus) and the HS are three manifestations of the same and only God.
And when we say that we "bless God" we are not giving our protection to the Lord but praising Him for His mercy. I think this is just a language problem but it's clear for us that God doen't need us but we need Him and receive His many blessings.
Mr Green
02-08-2004, 13:46
I have two basic and major questions for all christians who are visiting and witnessing this discussion board. Please consider these questions well, thoughtfully, and most seriously, answering me in the shortest yet most honest possible manners. This is not a ploy of any kind, but an attempt to better understanding.
First: Do you seriously and truly believe and follow all that is in your bible? By the term 'bible', I am referring to the combination of the Old and New Testaments, not merely the New Tesstament, as so many modern-day christians seem to take only the advice and revelation given in the NT, over the OT.
Second: Who is it that blesses, or bestows mercy? Is it man, or who is it that bestows blessings and mercy upon all of creation?
Om Mohammed.
Salaams,
1) Do you seriously and truly believe all that is in the Qur'aan?
2) Who is is that dispenses justice to all, regardless of their status?
Wa salaams
Salaams,
1) Do you seriously and truly believe all that is in the Qur'aan?
2) Who is is that dispenses justice to all, regardless of their status?
Wa salaams
Dear Mr Green:
What do you mean? Have you started your saga of trying to proof anything against the Holy Qur'an?
Mr Green
02-08-2004, 21:25
Dear Mr Green:
What do you mean? Have you started your saga of trying to proof anything against the Holy Qur'an?
So it's okay to challenge a Christian about their Holy Book, which they may find deeply offensive, but it's not okay to challenge a Muslim about theirs?
I haven't yet opened the discussion. If after reading my recent post on the other thread, you decide you will not allow me to open this discussion, I will accept that, for now.
What about the Ahadeeth? Can I challenge them?
Dear Mr Green:
What's the purpose of your challenge?
Have you read the rules or are you choosing to ignore them? We don't allow usage of this space by other faiths that want to propagate their beliefs.
I believe you are a member of a sect that believes in numbers in the Holy Qur'an correct? We have seen here from time to time some members of that sect that started in Tucson, Arizona.
Om_Mohammed
03-08-2004, 18:00
Assalaamu alaikum.
First of all, I would like to thank all who have taken the time and trouble to answer these questions.
I realize full well that there are many different churches in christianity, and that each view and use the bible in different manners. And truly, although I am hoping for some discussion, of course, I am posing such questions more as rhetoric appearance more than for a literal response for myself. In other words, to help the Christians begin thinking about the truth of the scriptures that they have within their reach.
So many of the Chrisitians follow their elder's manners in blind faith, as they are even encouraged by their own clergy to do so. And this is bothersome to me personally. I was once one of those myself...for fear that there was nothing else out there in this world to mold my life by. Whenever I asked questions about the trinity or anything else of Christian belief, I was always told ultimately that 'this is the way it is, and you must believe' That simply did not wash down well with me.
And in finding Islam, and reading the Quran, I found a sensible and simplistic form of revelation that I did not find with the Bible. Let alone the Christian's own admission of the periodic man's reversions of the bible (i.e. changing here and there this and that).
To answer Mr. Green...let me say: 1. Yes. I sincerly and fully believe in the Quran and the message that it brings forth.
and 2. It is God alone who dispenses justice to all regardless of their position in this world. He has, of course, allowed for man to take over the worldly position of dispensing justice between men while on this earth in their time. However, the ultimate justice lies with Allah alone. And we shall all have to answer for that.
I hope that this has in some sort answered your questions.
Om Mohammed.
Mr Green
03-08-2004, 18:04
Dear Mr Green:
What's the purpose of your challenge?
Have you read the rules or are you choosing to ignore them? We don't allow usage of this space by other faiths that want to propagate their beliefs.
I believe you are a member of a sect that believes in numbers in the Holy Qur'an correct? We have seen here from time to time some members of that sect that started in Tucson, Arizona.
Dear brother,
The purpose of my challenge is a desire for the Truth. I have read the rules, and I do not believe I am ignoring them; it is because of the rules that I have not launched straight into the discussion I would like to open, but have instead asked for your response were I to do so. As regards other faiths propagating their beliefs, I believe that wherever you seek to propagate your beliefs, you will find others defending aka propagating theirs. Dawah is all about facing up to these challenges, so I believe. I once heard a story about an Imaam who would go to pubs and bars for the sake of Dawah. Naturally he steered well clear of drinking haraam drinks or engaing in any other haraam practice, he went solely for the purpose of inviting to Islaam, in a peaceful and respectful manner. I heard he was quite successful, especially in promoting a better understanding of our religion.
As regards to my "sect", the only "sect" I believe in, brother, is the "sect" of Islaam. I am deeply sceptical of anyone who came after the Holy Prophet (saws), especially those who claim to be Muslims, who claim to have received a "new" Prophetic revelation. Muhammad (saws) was the last Prophet and the Seal of the Prophets. I believe that corruption has crept in here and there, but that does not alter the fundamental Truth of his Message, nor does it mean that I practice a different form of Islaam to anyone else. My Shahaadah is the same as yours, I pray the same way as you, I pay my Zakaat like you, I fast like you, I have an intention to go on Hajj like you. I eat the same kinds of food as you do, and abstain from the same kinds of food as you do. I believe in modesty like you do (though I would question whether niqaab is really obligatory) etc. As regards beliefs in numbers, numbers have held many peoples in thrall since probably the time of Aadam (as). You hear people from time to time talking about the mystical significance of numbers in the Qur'aan and other Holy Books. I would say, what does it matter whether there are this many verses in this or that Suurah, and if you add up the numerical values of this or that word, it equals this or that? It serves no purpose. It doesn't bring anyone closer to Allaah. Islaam is really a very simple religion, or it should be, but there are those who make it unnecessarily complicated, introducing additional rites and practices, or new significances. None of that interests me.
Mr Green
03-08-2004, 18:47
Assalaamu alaikum.
First of all, I would like to thank all who have taken the time and trouble to answer these questions.
I realize full well that there are many different churches in christianity, and that each view and use the bible in different manners. And truly, although I am hoping for some discussion, of course, I am posing such questions more as rhetoric appearance more than for a literal response for myself. In other words, to help the Christians begin thinking about the truth of the scriptures that they have within their reach.
So many of the Chrisitians follow their elder's manners in blind faith, as they are even encouraged by their own clergy to do so. And this is bothersome to me personally. I was once one of those myself...for fear that there was nothing else out there in this world to mold my life by. Whenever I asked questions about the trinity or anything else of Christian belief, I was always told ultimately that 'this is the way it is, and you must believe' That simply did not wash down well with me.
And in finding Islam, and reading the Quran, I found a sensible and simplistic form of revelation that I did not find with the Bible. Let alone the Christian's own admission of the periodic man's reversions of the bible (i.e. changing here and there this and that).
To answer Mr. Green...let me say: 1. Yes. I sincerly and fully believe in the Quran and the message that it brings forth.
and 2. It is God alone who dispenses justice to all regardless of their position in this world. He has, of course, allowed for man to take over the worldly position of dispensing justice between men while on this earth in their time. However, the ultimate justice lies with Allah alone. And we shall all have to answer for that.
I hope that this has in some sort answered your questions.
Om Mohammed.
Salaams,
Thank you Om Mohammed for your response. You are no doubt aware from my posts that I am engaged in a kind of debate with another of the Administrators to this site about whether I can question Qur'aan and Ahadeeth. He has informed me that, according to the rules in the FAQ section, I may not do so, because this site is only about promoting Islaam, and I was told that apparent challenges to Christians about their Holy Book were merely responses to challenges made by them. Forgive me if I wrong, but your posting above reads far more like a challenge to Christians about the so-called truth of the biblical version of the events than a response to a challenge from their side. You yourself say you are hoping to open a discussion. Indeed, as you say, one of the things that you found a difficult pill to swallow as a Christian was the assertion that you shouldn't question the scholars, and should just accept everything as it is written. I agree, but I am here being told that as a Muslim I cannot do that. I know you were not the one who said that I could not challenge Qur'aan, but I am sure you are aware of what has been said, in particular as you are an Administrator yourself. I would again ask the question, is it that you are allowed to challenge Christians, but Christians (and others) are not allowed to challenge you?
Wa salaams
Assalamu-alaikum Mr Green:
You may notice that this is the first time I'm using the words of salaam with you, because you stated the finality of the Noble Prophet, so most certainly you are a Muslim as you state.
You are threading a thin line as I dont' know if you are sufficiently knowledgeable to question the authenticity of the Holy Qur'an.
I repeat that this is a Sunni Muslim site, privately owned and dedicated to Dawah work.
When we engage in discussions with Christians we aim to explain what Islam believes in, making clear that we aren't interested in their scriptures and what they say about "divinity" of Jesus or not.
We aren't interested in divisions among Muslims and different sects as clearly stated in our rules.
The type of discussions you want to engage in, should be addressed to other type of discussion boards and I am sure there plenty of them on the Web.
There are Muslims that favour Ahadeeth and those who are against. So what?
We aren't interested in those that reject Ahadeeth or question the autheniticity of the Holy Qur'an.
Firstly and foremost we are no scholars. Perhaps your questioning should be placed in the discussions boards that are run by scholars
So we'd decline your proposal and request you in not engaging in discussions that don't interest us.
If you are willing to work within our rules you may continue posting and taking part in this discussion.
If not, we request you to go to other type of discussion boards, and I am sure there may be plenty of them, where you can discuss your points of view on the Holy Qur'an and Ahadeeth of our Noble Prophet.
Ma'a-salaama,
Mr Green
04-08-2004, 00:49
Assalamu-alaikum Mr Green:
You may notice that this is the first time I'm using the words of salaam with you, because you stated the finality of the Noble Prophet, so most certainly you are a Muslim as you state.
You are threading a thin line as I dont' know if you are sufficiently knowledgeable to question the authenticity of the Holy Qur'an.
I repeat that this is a Sunni Muslim site, privately owned and dedicated to Dawah work.
When we engage in discussions with Christians we aim to explain what Islam believes in, making clear that we aren't interested in their scriptures and what they say about "divinity" of Jesus or not.
We aren't interested in divisions among Muslims and different sects as clearly stated in our rules.
The type of discussions you want to engage in, should be addressed to other type of discussion boards and I am sure there plenty of them on the Web.
There are Muslims that favour Ahadeeth and those who are against. So what?
We aren't interested in those that reject Ahadeeth or question the autheniticity of the Holy Qur'an.
Firstly and foremost we are no scholars. Perhaps your questioning should be placed in the discussions boards that are run by scholars
So we'd decline your proposal and request you in not engaging in discussions that don't interest us.
If you are willing to work within our rules you may continue posting and taking part in this discussion.
If not, we request you to go to other type of discussion boards, and I am sure there may be plenty of them, where you can discuss your points of view on the Holy Qur'an and Ahadeeth of our Noble Prophet.
Ma'a-salaama,
Wa alaikum as salaam Tayeb,
I cannot say I agree that your method of making Dawah is the right way to go about it, but it is your choice and your right to do as you see fit, and I shall naturally endeavour to honour your request that I refrain from opening a discussion on the aforementioned points.
If I may make one last comment in relation to your re-statement of the rules of this website, it does appear to me that Om Mohammed's above comments, which I repeat below, contradict your assertion that you are not interested in the truth of the Christians' Scripture. This may be personal opinion, but from an Administrator something which appears to contradict the rules as stated does smack somewhat of double standards. Anyhow, I shall say no more on this, your decision is clear.
"And truly, although I am hoping for some discussion, of course, I am posing such questions more as rhetoric appearance more than for a literal response for myself. In other words, to help the Christians begin thinking about the truth of the scriptures that they have within their reach." (Om Mohammed)
Regarding saying salaams to people who strike you as non-Muslims, I would say that there is nothing un-Islaamic about this. All the salaam is is a greeting in Arabic, a wish that Allaah will grant His peace, blessings etc. on those people. It is not just Arab Muslims who use this greeting. I see nothing wrong in wishing that Allaah grant His peace and blessings to a non-Muslim, indeed we are enjoined to spread peace and good will among all people. Yes, there is a particular emphasis on saying salaam to our Muslim brothers and sisters, because this goes someway to cultivating feelings of love and brotherhood amongst Muslims, as the Holy Prophet (saws) tells us. But that doesn't mean we should refrain from greeting non-Muslims in this way. It is the same sort of thing, you know, as using the Arabic word for (The) God - Allaah. Muslims are not alone in addressing (The) God in this way. Arab Christians will also address (The) God as Allaah. There is nothing particularly special about Arabic, it is just another of the many languages under the sun.
Wa alaikum as salaam
Wa alaikum as salaam Tayeb,
If I may make one last comment in relation to your re-statement of the rules of this website, it does appear to me that Om Mohammed's above comments, which I repeat below, contradict your assertion that you are not interested in the truth of the Christians' Scripture. This may be personal opinion, but from an Administrator something which appears to contradict the rules as stated does smack somewhat of double standards. Anyhow, I shall say no more on this, your decision is clear.
Allow me to intervene and clear up some of your confusion, Mr. Green.
You're right in saying that it would be absolutely wrong for the moderators and administrators to not follow the very rules they enforce. But I am sure you realize that every moderator has his/her own interpretation of the rules (wherever there is flexibility).
Yes, there are some of us who believe you should be given limited permission to discuss the topic(s) you wish to discuss and there are others amongst us who feel it would serve no fruitful/real purpose and would lead us nowhere and would only create fitnah.
What you're seeing is not an administrator breaking the rules (or so I hope) but only the various opinions we have. Alhamdulilah we work by consensus and mutual consultation, but to maintain a certain degree of order, the final decisions are left to Bro Tayeb (after all, he owns the place :) )
You have raised a number of interesting points in some of your posts regarding the rules of this website and the way things work around here. For example, your remark on Christians defending their beliefs. Believe me this is one of those tough decisions we have to make every now and then. Where do we draw the line? When does responding to our (Muslims') questions become preaching Christianity? There is no real guideline out there on this subject...one just does what one can do. But I don't think it is all that hard to figure out who is sincere and who isn't (though, being humans, we can make mistakes).
We absolutely appreciate your good manners and the fact that unlike people in the past who just barge in and start breaking the rules from their first post, you made it a point to ask.
However, I don't think this would be the proper platform to indulge in the topics you wish to discuss. Perhaps you should sit in the company of scholars (whether online or otherwise) and discuss all that you wish to discuss. That, in my humble opinion, might be a more sincere way of doing things, and Allah Knows Best.
Tell me honestly, the previous discussion forums where you were discussing these topics, did it serve any good? I doubt it.
Anyway, I just hope you can respect our decision (and I'm sure you will) and contribute to this place in other (legal) ways and forms (if you choose to do so).
Take care,
bye,
Asif.
Mr Green
04-08-2004, 13:10
Allow me to intervene and clear up some of your confusion, Mr. Green.
You're right in saying that it would be absolutely wrong for the moderators and administrators to not follow the very rules they enforce. But I am sure you realize that every moderator has his/her own interpretation of the rules (wherever there is flexibility).
Yes, there are some of us who believe you should be given limited permission to discuss the topic(s) you wish to discuss and there are others amongst us who feel it would serve no fruitful/real purpose and would lead us nowhere and would only create fitnah.
What you're seeing is not an administrator breaking the rules (or so I hope) but only the various opinions we have. Alhamdulilah we work by consensus and mutual consultation, but to maintain a certain degree of order, the final decisions are left to Bro Tayeb (after all, he owns the place :) )
You have raised a number of interesting points in some of your posts regarding the rules of this website and the way things work around here. For example, your remark on Christians defending their beliefs. Believe me this is one of those tough decisions we have to make every now and then. Where do we draw the line? When does responding to our (Muslims') questions become preaching Christianity? There is no real guideline out there on this subject...one just does what one can do. But I don't think it is all that hard to figure out who is sincere and who isn't (though, being humans, we can make mistakes).
We absolutely appreciate your good manners and the fact that unlike people in the past who just barge in and start breaking the rules from their first post, you made it a point to ask.
However, I don't think this would be the proper platform to indulge in the topics you wish to discuss. Perhaps you should sit in the company of scholars (whether online or otherwise) and discuss all that you wish to discuss. That, in my humble opinion, might be a more sincere way of doing things, and Allah Knows Best.
Tell me honestly, the previous discussion forums where you were discussing these topics, did it serve any good? I doubt it.
Anyway, I just hope you can respect our decision (and I'm sure you will) and contribute to this place in other (legal) ways and forms (if you choose to do so).
Take care,
bye,
Asif.
Salaams,
I concur. And thank you, by the way, for sharing the background to how this discussion forum was set up. It does always help to know the context.
Wa salaams
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