Jesus Seminar

[Om_Mohammed]

The Christian bishops and priests are admitting the Bible has tensions.

There are some articles here to that effect here -
http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative.html

What is a "Trinity"? Why is blind faith needed?
Trinitarian Scholars admit it! (Excellant Article)
Anglican bishops declare that Jesus is not God
Christians commit Idol-worshipping despite prohibition in Bible
Answers to Questions Christians have about the Bible
Jesus Attests Bowing only For God Is Jesus really God?
Trinity Refuted by Christ Himself
Trinity is FALSE According to Bible


The Jesus Seminar
Newsweek, April 4th, 1994

The Jesus Seminar, a group of 77 New Testament experts, meet twice a year to deconstruct the story of Jesus (Prophet Isa a.s.) and build their own version of what happened. They are sober people, and Christians themselves in most cases.

The Jesus Seminar is perhaps best known for colour-coding the New
Testament. Since its founding in 1985, the group has studied the sayings of Jesus, using coloured beeds to vote on the accuracy of each one. A red bead is cast if the scholar thinks "Jesus undoubtedly said this or something very like it." Pink is for a statement close to what Jesus probably said. Grey is for something he didn't say, though the ideas were close to his,
while black is for something he neither said not thought. Last December, the group published a new version of the Gospels, with Jesus' sayings in coloured type - little of it in red. In the Lord's Prayer, the only words Jesus said for sure were "Our Father."

In addition to the 4 canonical Gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke and John). Seminarians draw on a variety of early Christian writings, some of which are dismissed as apocryphal or irrelevant by other experts.

There is the "Gospel of Thomas," a collection of Jesus' sayings discovered in Egypt in 1945. In its new edition of the Gospels, the Jesus Seminar includes Thomas as a full-fledged number 5, though some other authorities question whether it is a genuine 1st Century work. Even the Seminarians seem to have some doubts about Thomas. In their colour-coded version, only three short statements by Jesus are printed in red.

[Om_Mohammed]

Assalaamu alaikum.

It is not only the point and question of some people leaving christianity, or coming to Islam (although that is only a logical step for those who truly think and search for truth in religion). But...the point here being, is that the many deacons and elders of the churches...people who have long since been christians...admitting forthright...of their constant changes to the bible...re-arranging, and re-classifying what is actually God's word and what is not. If it (the bible) was such a pure source from God as so many christians like to claim, then there would be no way that they could so tamper with it on a regular basis.

It is not us (muslims) who are raking the bible, but the christians themselves, with their frequent (or even infrequent) revisions, reviewings, arrangeings, and re-wordings as well as re-classifications of the bible that is destroying it's dependability as a source of guidance.

The message that God revealed...to the people of the Book, the people who came before the advent of Islam, as well as the Books of those who came before them, we (as muslims) believe in. However...where is that today? How can it be found...when there is so much human interference. Yet, we (the total population of the world for time to come) have in our midst a more pure, more pristine message, more complete...and that can be found in the Quran. For those searching for such purity and truth, read the Quran...and you, too, shall see, inshaAllah.

Om Mohammed.

[Jared]

Om Mohammed,

The Jesus seminar, founded by Robert Funk in 1985, does not represent a Christian concensus. They are a group of self selected academics that operate on shared presuppositions. For instance they tend not believe in the miraculous, they do not believe in a literal second coming of Jesus. They are people like like Leif Vaage who said, that Jesus was very likely," a party animal, somewhat shiftless, and disrespectful of the fifth comandment: Honor your father and mother" Even by your definitions these are not Christians, since they do not even honor Jesus as a prophet. So why pretend that their blasphemy represents Christianity?

I suppose that wolves like this hiding under a nominal cloak of 'Christianity' provide an exellent exhibit for your case against Christianity. But really, you cannot project their sins upon the history of the scriptures. You are indulging in many assumptions.

You make it sound as if the different Bibles, KJV, NIV, RSV, NKJV, etc. are drastically different, filled with the changing whims of people like those in the Jesus Seminar. What are you talking about? The fact is that their are millions and millions of Bibles in existence today and being printed as we speak that, follow and agree with a foundation of manuscripts that in turn agree with each other.
Can you show me a Bible or a manuscript that has no passages indicating that Jesus is the Son of God?

Where are the substantial differences between the majority of manuscripts and the KJV or the NIV or the RSV? Where are the evidences of the intrusions and revisions that would make the Bible today so different than it was centuries and centuries ago?

There are those people who may write something and claim that it is from God when it is not. How are we to know the difference? Perhaps someone will discover a book called the 'Gospel of Tim' , that claims Jesus was a drug addict.
Will you then sieze on this false book as evidence against Christianity, and the veracity of the Christian scriptures?
It is a hoax. Perhaps someone will make a book and call it the New Age Bible, claiming that Jesus was actually an alien from outer space. Will you sieze on this as evidence that we cannot know what Bible is trustworthy?


Sincerely,
Jared

[Nzingha]

Hello Jared

valid point.. I had a brief discussion with someone before abou the jesus seminar.. and have wondered on what basis do they choose what Jesus actually said? The person who I had briefly talked with made it sound very whimsical as to why they choose what they do. Would this be correct?

nzingha


- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

[Om_Mohammed]

Hmm...it seems to me...that the people who have admittedly written the bible and then claimed that it is from God...have been the assuming ones. It seems to me that it is the ones who constantly thru the ages have revised, reviewed, deleted from and added to the bible thru the ages, are the assuming ones.

What about the many books in the New Testament alone...which are letters written by Paul...yet are within the bible...claimed as being the word of God? I mean...it is the claim of christians ... that the bible in it's entirety is the word of God. How can that be? When...it is so obvious that so much of the existing bible today is such letters written by ppl like Paul?

And...who has given the authority and right to ppl thru the ages...to review, revise, delete from and add to the bible? How can that be done to God's word?

Om Mohammed.

[Jared]

Nzingha,

Those in the Jesus Seminar tend toward the position that, "Man is the measure of all things." . These are people, it seems, who believe that all religions are only cultural phenomena rooted in myths which man himself has created. They view Jesus, primarily as a proponent of social change. They do not seriously consider Jesus in terms of religious belief and faith. However, those in the Jesus Seminar are true to their own agenda, which seems to be the desire to see their own logic prevail over faith and trust in God.



Their criteria for interpreting the validity of Jesus’ statements, are based on their own assumptions about who Jesus was. Robert Funk, the ringmaster of the Seminar says that Jesus… "was no goody-two shoes" (Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 30 Sept. 1989)
and that, "seminar participants believe that Jesus did not describe an apocalyptic return."
(Los Angeles Times, 30 Mar. 1991) . Funk also said that, "What we need is a new fiction that takes as its starting point the central event in the Judaeo-Christian drama…"
(Forum 1/1, 1985) (Quotes and sources from "The Real Jesus", by Luke Timothy Johnson)

Call them what you will, but these people follow themselves, and profoundly disrespect Jesus.

Sincerely,

Jared

[Jared]

Om Mohammed,

The Bible is the Word of God. In it God has used and directed the speech and writing of many people to communicate what He desires to communicate to Mankind.

He directed and guided people like Paul, and Isaiah to address many general and specific things that He desired they should address. He often relayed messages to a prophet after which the prophet would relate what God had spoken. Sometimes God inspired someone to record events, tell a story, give advice, or write a song. These are some of the ways in which God has chosen to reveal His Word to us.

Frankly, as to any reviewing, revision, deletion, or addition that has occured as the Bible was compiled over the millennia, it is God who has sanctioned and directed such things, maintaing the integrity of His Word, even while using imperfect men.

But the picture you paint of an error filled, perverted, polluted text that has been twisted by every whim and fancy of man, it is a fiction. But you are convinced, and you have alot of motivation to maintain your position.

1) Consider the many, many, many judgements of God that are recorded in the Bible against the Jews.

2) Consider all the character flaws of the Apostles that are recorded in the Bible.

3) Consider the struggles of the churches to which Paul directs his letters.

4)Consider the judgements of God against the churches in Revelation.

If the Bible, as you maintain, has been so easily reshaped to gratify the wishes of Christians and Jews, how do you explain the fact that the Bible still contains the burdon of all these unflattering judgements? Surely we would have liked to delete all these passages so we could justify ourselves more easily.

Sincerely,

Jared

[Hakima Ahmed]

To Jared, in reply to what you have said about the bible being the Word of God I would like to ask you a few things:
You said that the bible tells of the flaws in Jewish beliefs.......well let me tell you something. The Quran tells of the flaws in the Christian religion.

Do you believe that Moses [as] was inspired divinely by God? Then why does the bible say that there are flaws in the Jewish belief? We as Muslims believe that Jesus [as] was divinely inspired by God. The flaws are not with him though but with his followers.

Therefore as you yourself have argued, the bible was revealed to correct the Jews. The Quran was revealed as the last and true Word of God to correct the misunderstandings of the Christians and to the whole of mankind.

If you have actually studied Islam and the Quran you will realise that Islam does not dismiss the bible, but it corrects its mistakes. Also in the Gospel of John [sorry I'm not sure which chapter] it says that the the following question was asked "Is he THAT Prophet?" meaning was Jesus THAT Prophet, and the answer was no. The Prophet mentioned was Mohammed [saw].
In the bible itself we are told that Jesus [as] spoke of another Prophet to come, so why don't you believe him?

Also think about this: Jews, Christians and Muslims have the Prophets' names in common eg. Moses, Noah, Abraham.... therefore why is it that you don't believe in Mohammed's [saw] Prophethood? Is it because Islam came after Christianity and so you decide to stop learning at that point rather than find out why another religion with similar teachings to yours had arrived?

[Jared]

>To Jared, in reply to what
>you have said about the
>bible being the Word of
>God I would like to
>ask you a few things:
>
>You said that the bible tells
>of the flaws in Jewish
>beliefs.......well let me tell you
>something. The Quran tells of
>the flaws in the Christian
>religion.

You seem to indicate that I only said that the Bible records judgements against the Jews. I mentioned in my previous post( the one to which you are referring) that the Bible records Divinely inspired criticisms and judgements levelled at Christians as well as Jews.
>
>Do you believe that Moses [as]
>was inspired divinely by God?
>Then why does the bible
>say that there are flaws
>in the Jewish belief?

Yes, of course I belive that Moses was a prophet inspired by God. As to why the Bible says that there are flaws in the Jewish belief: It is because the Jews did not persist in obedience to the commands that were given to them through Moses.

We
>as Muslims believe that Jesus
>[as] was divinely inspired by
>God. The flaws are not
>with him though but with
>his followers.

I really do agree with you, that the flaws are not with Jesus but with his followers.

>Therefore as you yourself have argued,
>the bible was revealed to
>correct the Jews. The Quran
>was revealed as the last
>and true Word of God
>to correct the misunderstandings of
>the Christians and to the
>whole of mankind.

Hakima, I have also argued that the Bible is revealed to correct Christians also. Please read about and consider the example and the standard that Jesus set for his followers. Read Matthew chapter 17: 21-23, Mark chapter 9:33-37, these are a just a couple places that indicate that standard. I really don't know of another book or revelation that could set a higher standard for Christians than that recorded in the Bible.

>If you have actually studied Islam
>and the Quran you will
>realise that Islam does not
>dismiss the bible, but it
>corrects its mistakes.
Also in
>the Gospel of John [sorry
>I'm not sure which chapter]
>it says that the the
>following question was asked "Is
>he THAT Prophet?" meaning was
>Jesus THAT Prophet, and the
>answer was no. The Prophet
>mentioned was Mohammed [saw].
>In the bible itself we are
>told that Jesus [as] spoke
>of another Prophet to come,
>so why don't you believe
>him?

That verse in John that you are referring to is in John chapter 1 verse 20 but this is speaking about John the Baptist not Jesus. Jesus never said that any man would arise after him that was in anyway equal to Him. But through the Holy Spirit of God there will be prophets(Acts 2:14-21)

>Also think about this: Jews, Christians
>and Muslims have the Prophets'
>names in common eg. Moses,
>Noah, Abraham.... therefore why is
>it that you don't believe
>in Mohammed's [saw] Prophethood? Is
>it because Islam came after
>Christianity and so you decide
>to stop learning at that
>point rather than find out
>why another religion with similar
>teachings to yours had arrived?

I have read the Quran, and I do not think that its teachings are really similar to the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was tortured, nailed to a cross, arose from death and ascended into Heaven. He was constantly healing people, teaching people, touching lepers. He raised people from the dead. He walked on water. The wind obeyed him. He enjoyed no wives. He didn't resort to violence and he taught his followers to love their enemies.I do not find a similar claim, example or teaching of Mohammed in the Quran.

Sincerely,

Jared

[Hakima Ahmed]

Jared,

>Yes, of course I belive that
>Moses was a prophet inspired
>by God. As to
>why the Bible says that
>there are flaws in the
>Jewish belief: It is because
>the Jews did not persist
>in obedience to the commands
>that were given to them
>through Moses.
>
In the Quran we are told this too about the disobedience of the Jews to Moses. Why? Because Islam is from Allah [swt] just as the teachings of Jesus [as] were also from Allah [swt].
>
>I really do agree with you,
>that the flaws are not
>with Jesus but with his
>followers.
>

If you have just admitted this, is it so hard for you to believe that Allah [swt] sent down Islam after Christianity? You yourself have said that Jesus [as] was appointed to correct the Jews. When the teachings of Jesus [as] became forgotten or misunderstood, Allah [swt], God sent down yet another revelation to correct those people who had gone astray. Allah [swt], God revealed the Quran to Mohammed [saw] just as he had revealed the Gospel [Good News] to Jesus, The Psalms to Dawuud, David, and the Torah to Moses [pbut].


>
>Hakima, I have also argued that
>the Bible is revealed to
>correct Christians also. Please
>read about and consider the
>example and the standard that
>Jesus set for his followers.
> Read Matthew chapter 17:
>21-23, Mark chapter 9:33-37,
> these are a just
>a couple places that indicate
>that standard.

Inshallah I will read those those chapters.


I really
>don't know of another book
>or revelation that could set
>a higher standard for Christians
>than that recorded in the
>Bible.
>
>
>That verse in John that you
>are referring to is in
>John chapter 1 verse 20
>but this is speaking about
>John the Baptist not Jesus.
>Jesus never said that any
>man would arise after him
>that was in anyway equal
>to Him. But through
>the Holy Spirit of God
>there will be prophets(Acts 2:14-21)
>
Through the Holy Spirit [Gabriel] [ra], the Quran was revealed to the Prophet Mohammed [saw]. If you have just told me that Jesus himself said there will be Prophets then can I ask you if you believe what he said? Do you not believe that Mohammed [saw]as another Prophet sent to us by Allah [swt], or are you still waiting for the Prophet tha Jesus spoke of to appear?
>
Also may I ask, did Jesus [as] say with his own words that he is the last of the Prophets? Did he say that no other message from God will follow? If so show me where in the Bible. Or did Jesus [as] say that other revelations will follow after his teachings? If so please show me where that is too.
>
> I have read the Quran,
> and I do not
>think that its teachings are
>really similar to the teachings
>of Jesus. Jesus
>was tortured, nailed to a
>cross, arose from death and
>ascended into Heaven. He was
>constantly healing people, teaching people,
>touching lepers. He raised people
>from the dead. He walked
>on water. The wind obeyed
>him. He enjoyed no wives.
>He didn't resort to violence
>and he taught his followers
>to love their enemies.I do
>not find a similar claim,
>example or teaching of Mohammed
>in the Quran.
>

Jared, I want to ask you if you believe Jesus [as] to be the son of God or a Messenger of God. The reason is because I want to know to what extent you follow his teachings or worship him.


Firstly the alleged death of Jesus [as] is a matter of opinion. Jesus'miracles are well known, and I do agree that he healed people and did many amazing things such as healing the blind. During that period of time, magic was at its height and Jesus [as] was given the gift to do do these many things by Allah [swt]. Each Prophet was given a miracle.

Solomon could speak the language of the animals and control the wind. Joseph could interpret dreams, Jesus could heal the ill, [pbut]. The miracle of Mohammed [saw] is the Quran. No other religious scripture has been kept intact in its original form like the Quran has. Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, and even Jews or Christians will admit that their holy scripture is not intact. However the Quran can be traced back to its revealed time without any change of its form having taken place. Therefore the authenticity of the Quran can be undoubtedly seen.

At the time the Quran was revealed, eloquency of Arabic was at its height, just as magic had been at its height during Jesus's time [as].

Hakima

[Arshad]

Salam

MashaAllah Sister Hakimah, you are very learned indeed and good at debate. It is a pleasure to have you here at IWC.

Now, i would like to add a few points to what Jared said that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) did not perform miracles.

On at least two occasions that I know of, mentioned in the Sahih books of Hadith, the Prophet (peace be upon him) was given the miracle of limitless food. One is when during the digging of the trench around madina before the battle of the trench, a small child was taking some dates to his father i think, and the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked the child to give him the dates. He places them on a sheet and by a miracle, they multiplied to fill up the whole sheet, so that all the hungry workers could eat them.

Another occasion was a banquet at a Muslim man's house, where the Prophet (peace be upon him) was invited. The hosts were worried that there would not be enough food for the large number of guests who were invited. But the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked that he be the one who served the food, and he did so. There was only a little meat and bread to eat, inside pots. By a miracle, the meat and bread never ran out and the Prophet (peace be upon him) kept on serving them from the pots.

Oh yeah, I remember another miracle. Extra-sensory perception i guess you would call it, or i guess the ability to know of occurances that occur far way. There was a Muslim man who had invited a friend over for dinner, but he found out that his wife only had enough food for one person to eat, so the man dimmed lights and made it dark and when his friend came, he didnt tell him there was less food, nor did he divide the food. He just told the friend to eat the food, while the man acted like he was eating by making noises with his mouth. It was dark, so the friend didnt know what was going on. Later, I think the next day, the Prophet (peace be upon him) met that man and told him that Allah informed him about what the man had done the previous night at dinnertime, and he told him that Allah was pleased by this deed of his.

All this is documented in the Sahih books of hadith, they are so vast and i cannot give exact references, i apologise. But u could search for it, or read through the books yourself and you will come across these incidents.

Every Prophet had some sort of miracle, that is true.

And Jared, you forgot one miracle of Jesus (peace be upon him). When he was a baby, he had spoken fluently to refute a bunch of people who were casting doubt on Mary's virginity. They were troubling her, and she was speechless because she couldnt explain it all. So Jesus, as a baby, himself spoke their language at that moment, defending his mother. This incident is mentioned in the Quran I think. Check it out.

Sameer Arshad

[Jared]

Hakima,

You said:
>>
>In the Quran we are told
>this too about the disobedience
>of the Jews to Moses.
>Why? Because Islam is from
>Allah [swt] just as the
>teachings of Jesus [as] were
>also from Allah [swt].

I understand that you believe that the Quran is from Allah. But the primary records of any Jewish disobedience to God preceed the Quran by at least many centuries. I don't understand how the presentation of this information in the Quran speaks to the inspiration of the Quran. There are even many secular and academic books that discuss these aspects of Jewish history.


I said:
>>I really do agree with you,
>>that the flaws are not
>>with Jesus but with his
>>followers.
>>
You responded:
>If you have just admitted this,
>is it so hard for
>you to believe that Allah
>[swt] sent down Islam after
>Christianity? You yourself have said
>that Jesus [as] was appointed
>to correct the Jews. When
>the teachings of Jesus [as]
>became forgotten or misunderstood, Allah
>[swt], God sent down yet
>another revelation to correct those
>people who had gone astray.
>Allah [swt], God revealed the
>Quran to Mohammed [saw] just
>as he had revealed the
>Gospel [Good News] to Jesus,
>The Psalms to Dawuud, David,
>and the Torah to Moses
>[pbut].

Hakima, you believe what the Quran teaches about Christianity: that is, to believe that Jesus is the Son of God is to believe a lie. I however believe that He is the Son of God. I have believed in what the scriptures attest to. You believe that the scriptures have been polluted. The Bible records the words of many prophets over many centuries, none of these prophets make the accusation that the written record of the other prophets has been perverted. Jesus qouted previous scriptures and made no indication that their integrity was questionable. Mohammed, by denying the Sonship of Jesus, has implicitly made the accusation that the written records of the prophets have been utterly perverted and are totally untrustworthy. Now, should I believe the witness of many prophets as to the integrity of the prophets' writings, or the witness of one prophet who accuses all the rest?
>>

>Through the Holy Spirit [Gabriel] [ra],
>the Quran was revealed to
>the Prophet Mohammed [saw]. If
>you have just told me
>that Jesus himself said there
>will be Prophets then can
>I ask you if you
>believe what he said? Do
>you not believe that Mohammed
>[saw]as another Prophet sent to
>us by Allah [swt], or
>are you still waiting for
>the Prophet tha Jesus spoke
>of to appear?

Yes, I believe that God, by His Holy Spirit, has and shall raise up prophets, but no prophet that will ever be on the same level with Jesus. Where is it that you find Jesus speaking of a specific prophet that is to appear?

>Also may I ask, did Jesus
>[as] say with his own
>words that he is the
>last of the Prophets? Did
>he say that no other
>message from God will follow?
>If so show me where
>in the Bible.

Read Matthew 24:3-44. Here, Jesus speaks about the future, unto his second coming and the end of the age.. He never says that another like him will ever come. He does warn us that many false christs and prophets will come after him.

Or did
>Jesus [as] say that other
>revelations will follow after his
>teachings? If so please show
>me where that is too.


Jesus never said that his teachings would be followed by another revelation that would have authority over his .
>>
>> I have read the Quran,
>> and I do not
>>think that its teachings are
>>really similar to the teachings
>>of Jesus. Jesus
>>was tortured, nailed to a
>>cross, arose from death and
>>ascended into Heaven. He was
>>constantly healing people, teaching people,
>>touching lepers. He raised people
>>from the dead. He walked
>>on water. The wind obeyed
>>him. He enjoyed no wives.
>>He didn't resort to violence
>>and he taught his followers
>>to love their enemies.I do
>>not find a similar claim,
>>example or teaching of Mohammed
>>in the Quran.


>>
>
>Jared, I want to ask you
>if you believe Jesus [as]
>to be the son of
>God or a Messenger of
>God. The reason is because
>I want to know to
>what extent you follow his
>teachings or worship him.
>
>
>Firstly the alleged death of Jesus
>[as] is a matter of
>opinion.

It may be a matter of opinion to you and others. But it is a matter of history to a reasonable scholar, and a matter of Divine love to a follower of Jesus Christ, and the Day will declare that it is a reality, no matter what someones opinion is.

Jesus'miracles are well known,
>and I do agree that
>he healed people and did
>many amazing things such as
>healing the blind. During that
>period of time, magic was
>at its height and Jesus
>[as] was given the gift
>to do do these many
>things by Allah [swt]. Each
>Prophet was given a miracle.
>
>
>Solomon could speak the language of
>the animals and control the
>wind. Joseph could interpret dreams,
>Jesus could heal the ill,
>[pbut]. The miracle of Mohammed
>[saw] is the Quran. No
>other religious scripture has been
>kept intact in its original
>form like the Quran has.
>Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, and even
>Jews or Christians will admit
>that their holy scripture is
>not intact.

No, People who believe in and obey Jesus Christ also believe that the scriptures are trustworthy and true

However the Quran
>can be traced back to
>its revealed time without any
>change of its form having
>taken place. Therefore the authenticity
>of the Quran can be
>undoubtedly seen.
>
>At the time the Quran was
>revealed, eloquency of Arabic was
>at its height, just as
>magic had been at its
>height during Jesus's time [as].

You simplify the matter of the Quran’s collection in a way that isn’t reflected in the hadiths. For instance in ' ( ibn Hajar, "Fath al Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348, vol. 9, p. 9) one reads that,

'The Prophet died and the Qur'an had not been assembled into a single place.'

Also in, (b. abi Bakr al Suyuti, "al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur'an", Halabi, Cairo, 1935/1354, pt 1, p. 60; cf. Fath, vol. 9, p. 18) one reads that,

`Uthman's collection occurred when differences had become frequent. They were reciting in all the rich multiplicity of their Arab dialects. He copied out the sheets into a single mushaf, arranged the suras and restricted the texts to a single dialect -- that of the Qurais on the plea that it had been revealed in the tongue of Mecca.’

I point out these two passages only to say that the Quran went through a process of collection, and to ask you what documents you are referring to when you say that the Quran can be traced back to its revealed time without any change of its form having taken place? If Mohammed died before the Qur’an had been assembled in a single place, this in itself constitutes a change of form between the time of its revelation to the time of its collection.

As pertaining to the miracles of Jesus, I mention them and other aspects in the example of his earthly life, only for you to consider the record of his words and deeds, because I believe that they indicate a greatness that cannot be surpassed.

Sincerely,
Jared

[Jared]

>Just a small correction Jared.
>
>You said in the article "Muhammed
>denied the Sonship of Jesus".
>
>
>First of all, Allah denied this,
>as is very clear in
>the Qur'an. All the prophets
>of God denied that God
>Has a son.

You state that all the prophets of God denied that God has a son. Read Isaiah 9:6-7 and read Matthew. 17:5 and read Malachi. 3:1 and read John 1:18,23, 29. These are just some of the places where there are testimonies from prophets and from God concerning God's Son.

Remember that in the Bible are the written words of many prophets of God, which you must accuse and slander in order to justify your statement that, "all the prophets of God denied that God has a son."

>I have noticed that whenver you
>mention Qur'an, you say "Muhammed
>said/did this,etc." When it is
>actually God's book, and NO
>ONE else's Book.

Did Mohammed have nothing at all to do with the transmission of the Quran? Is it always innapropriate to say Mohammed said this or that?
>
>Henceforth, when we speak of the
>present Bible, we will only
>mention "Paul wrote this, Paul
>wrote that". As it is
>correct.

When you speak of the present Bible you speak about a text that is based on a foundation of handwritten manuscripts and papyri that agree with each other in all their teachings and essential content. There is NO record that the Bible has been changed and perverted by men. Also, the scrolls found at Qumran in 1947 revealed written records of the Old Testament that are 1,000 years older than the oldest manuscript sources we had before the Qumran library was discovered. These scrolls show that the scriptures had not been changed over that 1,000 year period. So please read the prophecy of Isaiah in Isaiah ch. 9:6-7 and know that this prophecy is intact in the Qumran Isaiah scroll which is from 100 B.C. long before any Christian even existed:

"6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Sincerely,

Jared

[Ender]

>Om Mohammed,
>
>The Jesus seminar, founded by Robert
>Funk in 1985, does not
>represent a Christian concensus. They
>are a group of self
>selected academics that operate on
>shared presuppositions. For instance they
>tend not believe in the
>miraculous, they do not believe
>in a literal second coming
>of Jesus. They are people
>like like Leif Vaage who
>said, that Jesus was very
>likely," a party animal, somewhat
>shiftless, and disrespectful of the
>fifth comandment: Honor your father
>and mother" Even
>by your definitions these are
>not Christians, since they do
>not even honor Jesus as
>a prophet. So why pretend
>that their blasphemy represents Christianity?

They are also notoriously liberal-minded. There is a group of folks in every faith that would love to liberalize it to accept the modern evils. Picking one group out and using them as example is wrong.

Just as I would not think the Al-Fatiha Foundation representative of Islam, one should be care to pick out a liberal Christian group and say it is such.

Peace.

[Hakima Ahmed]

Arshad thank you brother, may Allah [swt] bless you.


>Jared,

>You said;

>Hakima, you believe what the
>Quran teaches about Christianity: that
>is, to believe that
>Jesus is the Son of
>God is to believe a
>lie.
I however believe
>that He is the Son
>of God. I have believed
>in what the scriptures attest
>to.

In the Quran we are told that Allah [swt] is above having a child, and to say that He had a relationship with a mortal that He created is a huge blasphemy. Let me make it clear, Allah, God does not have a child or son or daughter. Allah [swt] did not have a child which He then allowed to be killed in order for humans to be forgiven.

Does that mean that no human being will be punished for his/her crimes? That there will be no justice? Does that put on the same level both criminal, evil people and those who do good? Do you think that God created humans and gave them free choice for nothing?

You said;

You believe that the
>scriptures have been polluted. The
>Bible records the words of
>many prophets over many centuries,
>none of these prophets make
>the accusation that the written
>record of the other prophets
>has been perverted. Jesus qouted
>previous scriptures and made no
>indication that their integrity was
>questionable. Mohammed, by denying the
>Sonship of Jesus, has implicitly
>made the accusation that
>the written records of
>the prophets have been utterly
>perverted and are totally untrustworthy.
>Now, should I believe the
>witness of many prophets as
>to the integrity of the
>prophets' writings, or the witness
>of one prophet who accuses
>all the rest?

Firstly let me get this straight, just because Christianity denies and accuses one of Allah's [swt] Messengers [Mohammed, [saw]], that does not mean all religions are like that.
Islam never denies the message of the Prophets which Allah [swt] has sent down for us.

All the Prophets preached about the Oneness of Allah [swt], including Jesus [pbuh]. Please show me where in the Bible it says that Jesus says he is the son of God [show me his own words not those of Paul]. 25 Prophets are mentioned in the Quran, Jesus was the last but one and Mohammed came after him.

So when you say "Should we believe one Prophet over many", I would like to say that none of the Prophets mentioned in the Quran say that God has a Son, therefore if your Bible says something which clashes with the Quran then it is obvious which one we should believe.

Also can you say with all honesty that the Bible is the true and actual Word of God? Because I for sure know many people including scholars who will not say that. Why? Well, firstly the first Bible was written at least 100 years after the time of Jesus [pbuh] therefore none of his campanions were available to comment on the validity of the material gathered.

Over thise years material was lost, misinterpreted or left out. Also if the Bible is the true Word of God then why oh why does it keep having to be modified eg. In the 16th Century by Reformers, and changed to the New Testament. Why do so many Christians dismiss the Old Testament when it was written closer to the time of Jesus [pbuh]?
>
>You said;

>No, People who believe in and
>obey Jesus Christ also
>believe that the scriptures are
>trustworthy and true
>

This cannot be true if many Christian scholarsand religious people cannot testify to the Bible's reliability. Sorry I am not sure which chapter/verse but in the books Deutronomy and Leviticus, the Bible clashes when it says that a man may marry his dead brother's wife but then it says that he can't marry her because it is a sin. Prove that this doesn't clash. By the way this was pointed out to me by a Christian Scholar so I am not being biased.

I said;

> However the Quran
>>can be traced back to
>>its revealed time without any
>>change of its form having
>>taken place. Therefore the authenticity
>>of the Quran can be
>>undoubtedly seen.
>>
>>At the time the Quran was
>>revealed, eloquency of Arabic was
>>at its height, just as
>>magic had been at its
>>height during Jesus's time [as].
>
You replied;

>You simplify the matter of the
>Quran’s collection in a way
>that isn’t reflected in the
>hadiths. For instance in '
>( ibn Hajar, "Fath al
>Bari", 13 vols, Cairo, 1939/1348,
>vol. 9, p. 9)
>one reads that,
>
>'The Prophet died and the Qur'an
>had not been assembled into
>a single place.'
>
> Also in, (b. abi Bakr
>al Suyuti, "al Itqan fi
>`ulum al Qur'an", Halabi, Cairo,
>1935/1354, pt 1, p. 60;
>cf. Fath, vol. 9, p.
>18) one reads that,
>
>`Uthman's collection occurred when differences had
>become frequent. They were reciting
>in all the rich multiplicity
>of their Arab dialects. He
>copied out the sheets into
>a single mushaf, arranged the
>suras and restricted the texts
>to a single dialect --
>that of the Qurais on
>the plea that it had
>been revealed in the tongue
>of Mecca.’
>
>I point out these two passages
>only to say that the
>Quran went through a process
>of collection, and to ask
>you what documents you are
>referring to when you say
>that the Quran can be
>traced back to its revealed
>time without any change of
>its form having taken place?
>If Mohammed died before the
>Qur’an had been assembled in
>a single place, this in
>itself constitutes a change of
>form between the time
>of its revelation to the
>time of its collection.
>

Jared you just contradicted yourself here. If you believe that the Quran has mistakes because it was not gathered together during Mohammed's [saw] life then that means the Bible too must be full of mistakes since Jesus [pbuh] was not present when the Bible was written!

What you are forgetting is that the Quran had been fully revealed during Mohammed's [saw] life over 23 years. However at the time when the Quran was collected together Mohammed's [saw] comapanions including his closest, Abu Bakr were alive and it was only 2 years after the Prophet's [saw] death. Therefore the Quran had already been memorised by many who were of course still alive.

The fact is there has never been a change in the Quran from when it was revealed to today and no one can ever deny that.....if they did deny it they cannot prove it at all because no evidence exists or has ever existed.

You said;

>As pertaining to the miracles
>of Jesus, I mention them
>and other aspects in the
>example of his earthly life,
>only for you to consider
>the record of his words
>and deeds, because I believe
>that they indicate a greatness
>that cannot be surpassed.
>

Jared, I have already said over and over again that I respect Jesus [pbuh] fully because he is a Messenger of Allah [swt]. I have no doubt in that and I do not doubt what he said or did. What I am saying is that his followers did not do as he said, they eat pork and gamble and claim these things to be lawful.

As I can see you too belive of Jesus's [pbuh] second coming, Well inshallah when he does come he will destroy the Cross and lead the Muslims into prayer, because Jesus [pbuh] is a Muslim. Do you know what that word means? It means "One who submits to the Will of God". What is the Will of God? It is that none has the right to be worshipped except God. So why do you worship Jesus [pbuh]? Did Jesus [pbuh] ever worship himself? I think not! Who did he worship? God.

Hakima

[jcecil3]

The Jesus Seminar does not "tamper" with the texts, and Christians did not "tamper" with the texts of the New Testament or Old Testament. What the Jesus seminar attempts to do is decide which sayings attributed to Jesus in the gospels were really said by Jesus. In other words, they do not change the words in the gospels. Rather, they critically reflect on these words, and question the text, and struggle with the meaning and the history behind the text. Most Christian scholars acknowledge that since the gospels were not written by Jesus, there is some chance that his words were adapted to a local church issue in the first century. This is what good preachers do. Thus, there is a mix of Jesus' own thoughts, with the thoughts of his disciples. Christians believe that the authors of the New testament were inspired by God, so whether Jesus said something or not does not make a passage less divinely inspired. However, undertsanding the true intent of the human author in his or her historical context helps shed light on the divine meaning for today. When you compare the various versions each of the 4 gospels (Syriac versions, various Koine Greek versions, the Latin Vulgate versions, the Ethiopic versions, etc...) you find remarkable consistency across geographic regions, across different languages, and across remarkable time frames. The earliest known complete gospels match word for word with earlier fragments, and are quoted verbatim by early saints. The earliest complete extant copies of the gospels are as close or closer in time to the life of Jesus as the earliest complete extant copies of the Quaran are to the prophet (and I do pray that peace be upon him, though I am a Christian). When you do the exact same analysis on early version of the Quran, you find there is the same or greater variation as the variations of the gospels. It is the "problem" of variant readings that raises the question of what the original says, and what the person "behind the text" really said. Muslims are in disagreement over some of the writings that belong to the Quaran. I cannot read Arabic, but my English translation (translated by a practicing Muslim) just does not strike me as beautiful as the gospels. There is no more clarity to me in the Quaran than there is in the New Testament. Christians are "raking" the Bible as you put -- by questioning everything in it (but not by changing it). We believe that our Scriptures and our faith can stand up to critical analysis and the same literary scrutiny that an unbeliever would use on our holy texts. Our own scholars intentionally "deconstruct" and "reconstruct" theology all the time, preceisely because we believe that Christian faith can deepen and grow through such rigourous analysis. The Jesus seminar, and many Christian theological acedemies believe that intellectual ascetism and loving God with all your mind demands questioning your faith. More traditional evangelical Christians shy away from this form of Christian acseticism. Some Christian theologians believe that faith should questioned to the point where you are on the verge of losing faith. They hold that it is on the cliff of atheism that we come to a deeper awareness of the omnipotent and omnipresence of God. Do any Muslims believe the same about the Quaran?

>Assalaamu alaikum.
>
>It is not only the point
>and question of some people
>leaving christianity, or coming to
>Islam (although that is only
>a logical step for those
>who truly think and search
>for truth in religion). But...the
>point here being, is that
>the many deacons and elders
>of the churches...people who have
>long since been christians...admitting forthright...of
>their constant changes to the
>bible...re-arranging, and re-classifying what is
>actually God's word and what
>is not. If it (the
>bible) was such a pure
>source from God as so
>many christians like to claim,
>then there would be no
>way that they could so
>tamper with it on a
>regular basis.
>
>It is not us (muslims) who
>are raking the bible, but
>the christians themselves, with their
>frequent (or even infrequent) revisions,
>reviewings, arrangeings, and re-wordings as
>well as re-classifications of the
>bible that is destroying it's
>dependability as a source of
>guidance.
>
>The message that God revealed...to the
>people of the Book, the
>people who came before the
>advent of Islam, as well
>as the Books of those
>who came before them, we
>(as muslims) believe in. However...where
>is that today? How can
>it be found...when there is
>so much human interference. Yet,
>we (the total population of
>the world for time to
>come) have in our midst
>a more pure, more pristine
>message, more complete...and that can
>be found in the Quran.
>For those searching for such
>purity and truth, read the
>Quran...and you, too, shall see,
>inshaAllah.
>
>Om Mohammed.