I'd love to post, but the rules...

[Mr Green]

Assalamoalykum and greetings

welcome to all the new and old members.

ok i have an idea, since most guest come and go quitely, how about me choosing a topic to start with and see if it creates ripple in peoples brain :) . inshaAllah no brain storming topics ;) .

how about the role of man and woman in islam?

wassalam , bye

Salaams

I would love to discuss this very important topic, but I fear that I will stray into areas that I am "not allowed to", so I shall abstain.

Maybe most guests come and go quietly because the rules say that they are not allowed to ask questions that might be deemed an attack on the Qur'aan or Ahadeeth? Just a thought.

Wa salaams

[Asif]

Maybe most guests come and go quietly because the rules say that they are not allowed to ask questions that might be deemed an attack on the Qur'aan or Ahadeeth? Just a thought.


:) And we absolutely respect their decision just as they respect ours.

[Mr Green]

:) And we absolutely respect their decision just as they respect ours.

Touche. :)

[Sadika]

Salaams Br Green:

I notice you are quite knowledgeable of Islam and have a kind and moderate manner of explaining Islam.

Why don't you use your knowledge to further the objectives of this discussion board helping in Dawah, instead of insisting in discussing themes that you have been told time and time again don't interest here?

[Mr Green]

Salaams Br Green:

I notice you are quite knowledgeable of Islam and have a kind and moderate manner of explaining Islam.

Why don't you use your knowledge to further the objectives of this discussion board helping in Dawah, instead of insisting in discussing themes that you have been told time and time again don't interest here?

Wa salaams

Where I feel there are points to be made in furtherance of what is in my sight just and right, I shall make those points, but when it become clear to me that those with whom I speak really do not want to hear, then I shall desist. I have left off this topic now, and will do what I can to offer my humble opinion on matters which shall not be quite so controversial. For there is still much of great import in this affair of ours.

I do apologise to all on this site if I have annoyed or offended in any way by my persistence, but I am sure you will agree, it is our duty to try to further the cause of Islaam wherever we can, and especially where we see fellow brothers and sisters who we deem to be not remaining true to this noble cause.

I thank you for your patience. In this you do serve the cause of Islaam.

Wa salaams

[Zainab]

Asalaamualaykum Br Green

I was just thinking about something and wondered if i could ask you a question...

Are you a muslim, because if you ar how come your called Mr Green.

Maybe this should be in another thread or something but anyway I dont know how im quite new here :o lol.

Anyway, if anyone could answer my question(s) then please do so.

May Allah thank you

Allah Hafiz
Zainab :)

[Mr Green]

Asalaamualaykum Br Green

I was just thinking about something and wondered if i could ask you a question...

Are you a muslim, because if you ar how come your called Mr Green.

Maybe this should be in another thread or something but anyway I dont know how im quite new here :o lol.

Anyway, if anyone could answer my question(s) then please do so.

May Allah thank you

Allah Hafiz
Zainab :)


Salaams sister,

Yes, I am a Muslim. "Mr Green" is just a user name, it's not my real name.

In any case, there is no obligation in Islaam to have a "Muslim" or Arabic name. It is encouraged, drawing on Ahadeeth, to give your children, or if you are a convert to take, a name of one of the Prophets, or their wives, or "slave of" one or other Allaah using one or other of His Names/Attributes (e.g. Abdullaah, Abdul Karim etc.), or some other name/word with Islaamic meaning, but it is not obligatory. This is to encourage us to take as our models such individuals, or inspire us to remember Aspects of Allaah or what we should do to be a true Muslim. There is certainly no injunction to give or have an Arabic name. This latter trend is just cultural. Names of the Prophets, for example, in other languages will do just as well.

Wa salaams

[Tayeb]

Wa-alaikum-as-salaam:

Thank you Sr Zainab for your intervention and a renewed warm welcome to myiwc.com . We hope to see you here as a regular presence in this growing Web-based Community.

I'm sorry Br Green you're being asked if you're Muslim. You have a challenging style that as you will recognise, Muslims aren't used to. We have made knowledge compartimentalised and there aren't open debates amongst ourselves.

I am confortable that you use an English name. I hope in my reflections below you'll find an understanding on why you are being questioned if you are Muslim. Personally I find most dangerous people who have Muslim names but are looking for fitnah and promote an erroding struggle against Islam. Your initial attitude and thread brought about a lot of suspicion and I myself did doubt on your true motivations, and I confess I still doubt and I hope you'll understand why.

As I said previously myiwc.com isn't an appropriate place, and the matters you wanted to discuss ought to be brought up in appropriate venues with help of our learned scholars so that we may be oriented towards true path and not be misguided, where we may find ourselves confortable that we won't be taken to a path of desbelief.

Unlike in the past, Muslims confront nowadays inflitrations by quite clever people who try to combat Islam from within. Hence Muslims become suspicious because the confrontation is so intense and our feelings are so hurt that we tend to draw ourselves towards within (if I may use the term again but in a different meaning) and refuse to debate and accept beliefs without analysing and understanding them, something that's against the nature of Islam, as alhamdulillah our religion isn't of dogmas and mysteries.

Yesterday I was watching, an almost one hour program, on Aljazira, by cable TV's "Discovey Channel". I was so 'surprised' (I'm using in inverted commas because deep within my heart knew that's true) to hear an Aljazira anchor on the dictatorship which is deeply inherited in Darulislam, as we cannot question the Imam that delivers the khutbah on why he said this or that short of being called kaffir or munafiqin, on the daughter being afraid to talk to her mother, where the father and eldest son seem to be aloof and unavailable for discussion. We'll pay a heavy price if we don't start to change from within. A lot of intellectual work has to be carried out to start out debates among Muslims on why this or that, and formulae of consensus be obtained firstly on major issues and then on minor issues.

If we Muslims are to take a leading role and look after our own affairs and destiny, then we need to start out movements of self-search. We are so deeply divided and with lack of knowledge of our own history that we tend to make the same mistakes over and over again, without our intelectuals and scholars helping out in these discussions. Perhaps what we miss is to have appropriate governments that are Muslim focused, accountable and learned with a World vision, conscious of history and the role that Islam has to play.

One of my great hopes is Turkey. I must confess when student Iran was my great hope though it was based Shia Muslim society right from outset. I personally believe that Iran has detoriated to such an extent that the regime has failed to pull out their people from utmost poverty, and bring about a rejuvenation. The regime is so blinded that doesn't see even 10 feet away (that my joke on Iran which I have said face to face to the Iranian Ambassador in Portugal ;) ).

There's in Turkey a growing democracy (though quite contradictory due to the heavy inheritance of Ataturk's vison of a secularised Muslim society), a government of learned Muslims that have come to power after decades of sacrifice and that resisted a Algerian-like civil war against the secularised army (that the army tried to provoke so much, but a huge and towering figure Erbakan resisted taking up arms). Turks were the soldiers of Islam, and in Turkey ruled the last Kalifahs, and must I say very wise ones, hence my hope for this little twinkling light.

I wish the Western imperialist countries recognise that their interfence in radicalising Muslims is causing a bigger suffering and they have to let Muslims find their way. They ought to stop interfering in Turkey and nourish the Muslim government there.

I will dwell into the last paragraph if we continue to debate, on what's the interference and how bad it's. Insha-Allah.

Ma'a-salaama,

[Mr Green]

Wa-alaikum-as-salaam:

Thank you Sr Zainab for your intervention and a renewed warm welcome to myiwc.com . We hope to see you here as a regular presence in this growing Web-based Community.

I'm sorry Br Green you're being asked if you're Muslim. You have a challenging style that as you will recognise, Muslims aren't used to. We have made knowledge compartimentalised and there aren't open debates amongst ourselves.

I am confortable that you use an English name. I hope in my reflections below you'll find an understanding on why you are being questioned if you are Muslim. Personally I find most dangerous people who have Muslim names but are looking for fitnah and promote an erroding struggle against Islam. Your initial attitude and thread brought about a lot of suspicion and I myself did doubt on your true motivations, and I confess I still doubt and I hope you'll understand why.

As I said previously myiwc.com isn't an appropriate place, and the matters you wanted to discuss ought to be brought up in appropriate venues with help of our learned scholars so that we may be oriented towards true path and not be misguided, where we may find ourselves confortable that we won't be taken to a path of desbelief.

Unlike in the past, Muslims confront nowadays inflitrations by quite clever people who try to combat Islam from within. Hence Muslims become suspicious because the confrontation is so intense and our feelings are so hurt that we tend to draw ourselves towards within (if I may use the term again but in a different meaning) and refuse to debate and accept beliefs without analysing and understanding them, something that's against the nature of Islam, as alhamdulillah our religion isn't of dogmas and mysteries.

Yesterday I was watching, an almost one hour program, on Aljazira, by cable TV's "Discovey Channel". I was so 'surprised' (I'm using in inverted commas because deep within my heart knew that's true) to hear an Aljazira anchor on the dictatorship which is deeply inherited in Darulislam, as we cannot question the Imam that delivers the khutbah on why he said this or that short of being called kaffir or munafiqin, on the daughter being afraid to talk to her mother, where the father and eldest son seem to be aloof and unavailable for discussion. We'll pay a heavy price if we don't start to change from within. A lot of intellectual work has to be carried out to start out debates among Muslims on why this or that, and formulae of consensus be obtained firstly on major issues and then on minor issues.

If we Muslims are to take a leading role and look after our own affairs and destiny, then we need to start out movements of self-search. We are so deeply divided and with lack of knowledge of our own history that we tend to make the same mistakes over and over again, without our intelectuals and scholars helping out in these discussions. Perhaps what we miss is to have appropriate governments that are Muslim focused, accountable and learned with a World vision, conscious of history and the role that Islam has to play.

One of my great hopes is Turkey. I must confess when student Iran was my great hope though it was based Shia Muslim society right from outset. I personally believe that Iran has detoriated to such an extent that the regime has failed to pull out their people from utmost poverty, and bring about a rejuvenation. The regime is so blinded that doesn't see even 10 feet away (that my joke on Iran which I have said face to face to the Iranian Ambassador in Portugal ;) ).

There's in Turkey a growing democracy (though quite contradictory due to the heavy inheritance of Ataturk's vison of a secularised Muslim society), a government of learned Muslims that have come to power after decades of sacrifice and that resisted a Algerian-like civil war against the secularised army (that the army tried to provoke so much, but a huge and towering figure Erbakan resisted taking up arms). Turks were the soldiers of Islam, and in Turkey ruled the last Kalifahs, and must I say very wise ones, hence my hope for this little twinkling light.

I wish the Western imperialist countries recognise that their interfence in radicalising Muslims is causing a bigger suffering and they have to let Muslims find their way. They ought to stop interfering in Turkey and nourish the Muslim government there.

I will dwell into the last paragraph if we continue to debate, on what's the interference and how bad it's. Insha-Allah.

Ma'a-salaama,

Salaams brother,

You may be right about our sister Zainab's intentions, I personally did not take Zainab's question in any way other than why did I have a non-Muslim-sounding name.

With respect, I do not have any problem being questioned about my faith. I am daily questioned by Muslim and non-Muslim alike, about our faith, Islaam, and my personal slant on it. Alhamdulillaah there is much interest out there, amongst non-Muslims and Muslims alike, both in the basic aspects of our faith, and in as you say soul-searching, a search for a kind of renaissance in Islaam. Please understand, I have no problem with you doubting my intentions. I know that the questions I raise, and I do so in many quarters, are deeply challenging, but what I seek is to stimulate a more open debate than we have had in our community for many centuries now. There have been times in our history when our desire for learning and our willingness to search out all things were the envy of the world. Our philosphers, thinkers, scientists and astronomers laid the foundations for the western explosion of thinking and scientific inquiry, and they did so by taking the great works of other cultures, studying them, re-interpreting them, and building upon them. So will you find the influence of, for example, the Greek philosphers Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, on the development of Islaamic thinking and of course wider attempts to understand the world and our place in it. Such a desire to search out all things was not seen as a challenge to our faith, but complementary, indeed a manifestation of it. It is a great shame that today our community is no longer known for being forward-thinking but on the contrary, backward-thinking. This is the result of a mixture of ignorance amongst our brothers and sisters, tyranny in our lands, and non-Muslim propaganda and either direct or indirect suppression of our will and oppression of our people. Our people are held back, and so too is the world.

As ordinary men and women "on the street", we need to be more willing to challenge our scholars and each other, to engage in debate about all things, without fear of the consequences, either personal or otherwise. Our faith, being the truth that we believe it to be, will stand up to the minutest scrutiny, and as Muslims, individually and as a community, we will grow from the experience. Our scholars and intellectuals can be a help, but they can also be a hindrance. There needs to be a more equitable balance of "power" between our scholars and ourselves.

I too look to Turkey as a ray of hope in the darkness that for the moment has engulfed our lands and our people. I too once thought Iran looked promising, but for the moment at least, am deeply saddened by what I see there.

I think western countries know very well what they are doing. Their interference in our affairs, whether overt or covert, is for the most part very deliberate indeed. The longer we remain in poverty, ignorance and fight amongst ourselves, the happier they are (and by they I am not talking about the average man or woman on the street here, for the latter are in just the same boat as you and I).

We owe it to ourselves, the world and above all Allaah to start working on creating the right atmosphere in our community for the renaissance that we and our religion so richly deserve. A renaissance that does not see us lose our faith, but rather build on it. That is all I seek - to stimulate debate, to reinvigorate our community, to remove the veil of ignorance that holds us back.

Wa salaams

[Tayeb]

Wa-alaikum-as-salaam,

Though I agree with you I feel these matters are prone to lead to desbelief.

Also the knowledge of theological nature have higher learning disciplines that require studies.

It reminds me the story told by late Sheikh Darsh, ex-Imam of Central London Mosque, in "Impact International", a Muslim publication from London, about a Christian women who came to him when abandoned by her Muslim husband. The Sheikh asked where she'd married, if she had a marriage certificate. She respondend that a local butcher had married her to that Muslim man. Sheikh Darsh used this example to explain together with argumentations that every Muslim thinks he's and expert on Islam. They think they can issue fatwas, debunk this or that issue etc, without the necessary knowledge.

I deal in electronics technology, but I don't expect to hire an arts graduate for research and development (R&D) in electronics, unless I need some special packaging or create a marketing image, but then the hiring wouldn't have anything to do with R&D. Each one if in his own field of experience and training can be called an expert in his field.

Ma'a-salaama,

[Mr Green]

Wa-alaikum-as-salaam,

Though I agree with you I feel these matters are prone to lead to desbelief.

Also the knowledge of theological nature have higher learning disciplines that require studies.

It reminds me the story told by late Sheikh Darsh, ex-Imam of Central London Mosque, in "Impact International", a Muslim publication from London, about a Christian women who came to him when abandoned by her Muslim husband. The Sheikh asked where she'd married, if she had a marriage certificate. She respondend that a local butcher had married her to that Muslim man. Sheikh Darsh used this example to explain together with argumentations that every Muslim thinks he's and expert on Islam. They think they can issue fatwas, debunk this or that issue etc, without the necessary knowledge.

I deal in electronics technology, but I don't expect to hire an arts graduate for research and development (R&D) in electronics, unless I need some special packaging or create a marketing image, but then the hiring wouldn't have anything to do with R&D. Each one if in his own field of experience and training can be called an expert in his field.

Ma'a-salaama,

As salaam u alaikum

I am not convinced that an open and honest debate about all things is prone to lead to disbelief. I have questioned everything, giving everything as much thought as I possibly can, and I cannot help but conclude that Allaah exists, that I am better off worshipping Him, and that Islaam is the best way for me to go about this.

I think it would be fair to say that all of us have questions, even doubts. Some of these are I think perfectly valid, some just the whisperings of Shaitaan. Surely there is more to be gained, surely such questions would be better answered, and doubts dispelled, if we all had access to the opportunity to ask those questions and put forward those doubts, and get answers back from various sources, other ordinary men and women, and scholars too, without fear of recrimination. But in an environment where certain things are just "not talked about", how is that possible (no reference to this website being made, just commenting upon the climate prevailing in many Muslim countries and communities)?

Whilst your argument about going to a specialist has a certain logic to it, the problem here is that what we are talking about is something which no-one can claim to be an expert on. Beliefs are very personal things, we are each an expert in such matters in our own right. Moreover, whilst the scholars may know Qur'aanic science, or more Ahadeeth, or the ins and outs of Islaamic jurisprudence better than you or I, they may not necessarily have a better understanding of things. Knowledge and understanding do not always go together, and knowledge without understanding can in fact be dangerous. It is important on the matters of which we speak to pay attention to both the letter and the spirit of the law. 'Iesa (as) came to the Jews because they paid a lot of attention to the intricacies of the letter of the law, but for the most part had forgotten the spirit. He came to say, listen, you need both, do not forget the spirit of the law, which is love. Where some early Christians went wrong was in neglecting the letter of the law. So Muhammad (saws) came along to say, listen up, do not go to one extreme, of the Jews (who paid more attention to the letter) or the other, of the Christians (who paid more attention to the spirit). Letter and spirit are both needed. Second part of Al-Faatiha alludes to this. Why will 'Iesa (as) return? Because Muslims will make the same mistake as the Jews, paying more attention to the intricacies of the letter, and less to the spirit.

I am not saying don't listen to the scholars. I have gained much from listening to their arguments. What I am saying is listen to them, but never stop thinking for yourself. Hold onto both the letter of the law and the spirit. And look into all things.

Wa alaikum as salaam

[lubna]

Because Muslims will make the same mistake as the Jews, paying more attention to the intricacies of the letter, and less to the spirit.





Assalamoalykum

i accept that bit said by br green as true so didnt want to miss this chance of declaring it :) .....as we moslty dissagree on everything else.

but would also like to add this to it,

the jews also got into trouble by asking too many QUESTIONS , now we dont want to follow them on that one either! do we ? got to be very carefull!

examples:
their never ending questioning on the sacrifice of the cow,
their asking for the divine dinner from Allah i.e man and salwa
their refusal to fight the people of the city where they were suppose to enter saying the word hitatun , (which they change as well). and said Musa why dont you and your Allah fight. we are too scared.
etc etc
and to this day they are very proud of 'questioning' God, as one of the jew told me on a jewish site that i am member of.

so the muslims attitude is different than nonmuslims or jews. they accept every thing from quraan as word of Allah and dont doubt it for one second.
they might not understand wisdom behind somthing but they wont change , interpret or reform it in any other way than it is , just to please themselves or the people. like it happend to bible and torah.

wassalam
your sister in islam
lubna

[Mr Green]

Assalamoalykum

i accept that bit said by br green as true so didnt want to miss this chance of declaring it :) .....as we moslty dissagree on everything else.

but would also like to add this to it,

the jews also got into trouble by asking too many QUESTIONS , now we dont want to follow them on that one either! do we ? got to be very carefull!

examples:
their never ending questioning on the sacrifice of the cow,
their asking for the divine dinner from Allah i.e man and salwa
their refusal to fight the people of the city where they were suppose to enter saying the word hitatun , (which they change as well). and said Musa why dont you and your Allah fight. we are too scared.
etc etc
and to this day they are very proud of 'questioning' God, as one of the jew told me on a jewish site that i am member of.

so the muslims attitude is different than nonmuslims or jews. they accept every thing from quraan as word of Allah and dont doubt it for one second.
they might not understand wisdom behind somthing but they wont change , interpret or reform it in any other way than it is , just to please themselves or the people. like it happend to bible and torah.

wassalam
your sister in islam
lubna

Salaams sister,

Thanks for your input on this. Yes, we do seem to disagree on most things, don't we? :) One of the nice things about this site. We can disagree without that stopping us from having a debate on a variety of things or it descending into a slanging match. Definitely the way to go.

You are right, a number of the Jews got into trouble at the time of Muusa (as) for asking far too many questions, but we have to look into the nature of those questions, and the motives behind them. If we take the example given in Al-Baqarah, which is typical, they were commanded to do something, and they came up with one superficial question after another, asking each question in a "snide" manner, and when finally they agreed to carry out the commandment, they did so begrudgingly, as Qur'aan says "though they were near to not doing it." (2:71)

If the motives for questioning something are of a selfish nature, then we have to question those motives, but if the motives for questioning something are other-than-selfish, seeking justice, knowledge and understanding, then surely that is a good thing? Many religions demand that their followers do not question, but just do as their books or leaders say, and trust in their God or gods (or fear the punishment). This is a great way of stopping people from doing other than what you want (i.e. of oppressing/subjugating them). If I was a Christian, and I was told, believe that the Bible is the literal Word of God, that 'Iesa (as) is the literal Son of God, that he died for my sins on a cross, that he is the only route to salvation, and if you do not do it, then fear the fires of Hell (which is what quite a few Christians are told, and have been told), should they just do as they are told? No, you would ask them to look into the veracity of what they have been told. So why not do the same yourself with aspects of your belief? To suggest people do the one thing, but not yourself doing it is unfair and goes against Qur'aan when it says "Enjoin you Al-Birr on the people but you forget yourselves, while you recite the Scripture!? Have you then no sense?" (2:44) The last question is significant, because it directly appeals to us to exercise our sense, our logic, our minds. When faced with the blind following of rituals of the people around him, our beloved Prophet (saws) asked them why they did what they did, where was the sense in it, to which their only reply was, we found our fathers doing it. Previous Prophets did the same. Typically, idol worship was questioned through appeals to logic: Why do you worship that which has eyes but cannot see, ears but cannot hear, hands but cannot grasp, feet but cannot walk? These creations of your hands cannot hear your supplications and invocations, they can do nothing to help you, so why? Because we found our fathers doing it, because we have been told to do it, and not question.

Qur'aan and Islaam as a whole will stand up very well to the exercise of logic, if it is done in a rounded, comprehensive and just manner, rather than one-sided attacks on particular Verses, taking them out of context, and not looking at the whole of it. If someone comes to me and asks me why I do this and this, and I say to them, because it says so in Qur'aan, and they say to me, but why, and I say, I don't know, or I don't question, I just do it, they might marvel at my devotion, but it is unlikely to bring them any closer to Qur'aan, particularly if they have certain pre-conceived notions about Qur'aan, Islaam and Muslims. If however I say to them, this is why I do it, using logic and giving support to my position from Qur'aan and Ahadeeth, they will be more likely to look into Qur'aan and Islaam for themselves, and step closer to a Straight Path. Qur'aan tells us to invite to the Way of our Lord with wisdom and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. This means using logic, taking a balanced approach and using a kind manner.

Wa salaams

[lubna]

Assalamoalykum
br. green you said,
''Many religions demand that their followers do not question, but just do as their books or leaders say''
my reply,
our religion demands us to only follow THE book and do as the book says and also the sunnah , but we can question our leaders. infact to question our leader we have to learn our book.so we can tell where our leader is being deviated.
and one of the example is that of umar ra .any body could question him any time. he even got made quite by a lady who told him he cant fix the amount of mahr.
and this is the reason to seak knowledge is made compulsary on us muslims.
hadeeth are,
.seeking knowledge is fard upon every muslim man and woman.
.acquire knowledge even if you have to go to china.
.knowledge is the lost property of a mumin, who may pick it up whereever he or she finds it.

and for questions,there is a difference in asking a question
to ask a question to acquire knowledge
or to ask question to challange something or somebody
and we dont ask question to challlange quraan. we come to quraan as a source of guidance with a full conviction of our heart that what ever is in it, is beneficial for us no matter how unusual it may seem on the surface.this is called eemaan.

wassalam
lubna

[Tayeb]

As salaam u alaikum

I am not convinced that an open and honest debate about all things is prone to lead to disbelief. I have questioned everything, giving everything as much thought as I possibly can, and I cannot help but conclude that Allaah exists, that I am better off worshipping Him, and that Islaam is the best way for me to go about this.

I think it would be fair to say that all of us have questions, even doubts. Some of these are I think perfectly valid, some just the whisperings of Shaitaan. Surely there is more to be gained, surely such questions would be better answered, and doubts dispelled, if we all had access to the opportunity to ask those questions and put forward those doubts, and get answers back from various sources, other ordinary men and women, and scholars too, without fear of recrimination. But in an environment where certain things are just "not talked about", how is that possible (no reference to this website being made, just commenting upon the climate prevailing in many Muslim countries and communities)?

Whilst your argument about going to a specialist has a certain logic to it, the problem here is that what we are talking about is something which no-one can claim to be an expert on. Beliefs are very personal things, we are each an expert in such matters in our own right. Moreover, whilst the scholars may know Qur'aanic science, or more Ahadeeth, or the ins and outs of Islaamic jurisprudence better than you or I, they may not necessarily have a better understanding of things. Knowledge and understanding do not always go together, and knowledge without understanding can in fact be dangerous. It is important on the matters of which we speak to pay attention to both the letter and the spirit of the law. 'Iesa (as) came to the Jews because they paid a lot of attention to the intricacies of the letter of the law, but for the most part had forgotten the spirit. He came to say, listen, you need both, do not forget the spirit of the law, which is love. Where some early Christians went wrong was in neglecting the letter of the law. So Muhammad (saws) came along to say, listen up, do not go to one extreme, of the Jews (who paid more attention to the letter) or the other, of the Christians (who paid more attention to the spirit). Letter and spirit are both needed. Second part of Al-Faatiha alludes to this. Why will 'Iesa (as) return? Because Muslims will make the same mistake as the Jews, paying more attention to the intricacies of the letter, and less to the spirit.

I am not saying don't listen to the scholars. I have gained much from listening to their arguments. What I am saying is listen to them, but never stop thinking for yourself. Hold onto both the letter of the law and the spirit. And look into all things.

Wa alaikum as salaam

Wa-alaikum-assalam Br Green:

The debate is already on as I have said, but not in this discussion board that has different objectives. Muslims all over the World are already interacting with each other. Just do a search on the Web and you'll find out that debates are on right now.

Everyone thinks by himself guiding with the Holy Qur'an and Ahadeeth and seeks solace in something that's common on beleivers: our regular salat. We are all undergoing profund changes and a comprehension of Islam and in no other different time of history have Muslims have so become self-aware except the Companions of the Noble Prophet (ra) that were lucky to be there and then when the Revelations were occuring.

Islam isn't a religion based on dogmas and mysteries.

You say "knowledge without understanding can in fact be dangerous". I agree. But to obtain knowledge from a source that takes you to desbelief can be dangerous too. I have seen too many "ulamas" that can lead you to the way bliss. What would be the case if they aren't ulama? So we have to know where we obtain kowledge is being transmitted from. Just as an interesting example, I met an "alim" from "Ahlu Sunat wal-Jamat" that just sat there where he was when prayer time came. He was asked why he wasn't praying. He said he had already prayed in "mehfil" of our Nabi, "auzubillahi, he was fooling us all! If I had been seeking knowledge from this man surely I'd be led to desbelief and fitnah.

Ma'a-salaama,

[Mr Green]

Assalamoalykum
br. green you said,
''Many religions demand that their followers do not question, but just do as their books or leaders say''
my reply,
our religion demands us to only follow THE book and do as the book says and also the sunnah , but we can question our leaders. infact to question our leader we have to learn our book.so we can tell where our leader is being deviated.
and one of the example is that of umar ra .any body could question him any time. he even got made quite by a lady who told him he cant fix the amount of mahr.
and this is the reason to seak knowledge is made compulsary on us muslims.
hadeeth are,
.seeking knowledge is fard upon every muslim man and woman.
.acquire knowledge even if you have to go to china.
.knowledge is the lost property of a mumin, who may pick it up whereever he or she finds it.

and for questions,there is a difference in asking a question
to ask a question to acquire knowledge
or to ask question to challange something or somebody
and we dont ask question to challlange quraan. we come to quraan as a source of guidance with a full conviction of our heart that what ever is in it, is beneficial for us no matter how unusual it may seem on the surface.this is called eemaan.

wassalam
lubna

Salaams,

A lot of Christians will accept their Holy Book with full conviction of heart, what right do you have to challenge them? If you can challenge them as to why they accept things which appear to you to be nonsensical, why can they not do the same? Or are you telling me that if I was a non-Muslim I should just accept that Qur'aan is Word of Allaah because you tell me? I should not look into it? If you think a non-Muslim can challenge Qur'aan, then why not a Muslim?

Wa salaams

[Sadika]

Salaams Br Green:

Coming back to your favourite theme of "fallacy" of Holy Qur'an?

;)

[Mr Green]

Wa-alaikum-assalam Br Green:

The debate is already on as I have said, but not in this discussion board that has different objectives. Muslims all over the World are already interacting with each other. Just do a search on the Web and you'll find out that debates are on right now.

Everyone thinks by himself guiding with the Holy Qur'an and Ahadeeth and seeks solace in something that's common on beleivers: our regular salat. We are all undergoing profund changes and a comprehension of Islam and in no other different time of history have Muslims have so become self-aware except the Companions of the Noble Prophet (ra) that were lucky to be there and then when the Revelations were occuring.

Islam isn't a religion based on dogmas and mysteries.

You say "knowledge without understanding can in fact be dangerous". I agree. But to obtain knowledge from a source that takes you to desbelief can be dangerous too. I have seen too many "ulamas" that can lead you to the way bliss. What would be the case if they aren't ulama? So we have to know where we obtain kowledge is being transmitted from. Just as an interesting example, I met an "alim" from "Ahlu Sunat wal-Jamat" that just sat there where he was when prayer time came. He was asked why he wasn't praying. He said he had already prayed in "mehfil" of our Nabi, "auzubillahi, he was fooling us all! If I had been seeking knowledge from this man surely I'd be led to desbelief and fitnah.

Ma'a-salaama,

Salaams brother,

With respect, this is not the only online discussion forum I participate in, nor is it the only circle I move in, so I am aware of the discussions that are taking place, but there is still much work to be done, there are still a lot of Muslims in the world who know that if they dared question certain things, they would put their lives and the lives of those they love in danger. So there is still much to do.

You are right, Islaam is indeed a simple religion, but it does have its dogmas and mysteries, as any perusal of Qur'aan will suggest. Think of the parables, the letters that start off a number of Suurahs, the Verses which talk of the Ghaib (Unseen), the Verses which mention things which are clear and things which are hidden.

Our best chances of obtaining the right kind of knowledge come when we look at a variety of different sources, and of course, in spiritual matters, make du'a to Allaah for guidance, and think deeply, looking deep within our ownselves. Ultimately, all answers may be found within, if we search hard enough. So has the Holy Prophet (saws), like 'Iesa (as) before him said, whosoever knows himself knows his Lord. Personally, I go with a combination of looking at all the available evidence, hearing the arguments of different people taking different positions, and my gut feeling, what just feels unquestionably right inside. That is after all the wellspring of faith.

Wa salaams

[Sadika]

Salaams Br Green:

I don't agree with you at all and I find you dangerous because your aim is to take us to desbelief. I have been following your threads for a while and I found that you are not seeking knwoledge, as contrary to what you said about Islam, you are dogmatic and mysterious indeed, these words are applicable to you. You want to bring your dogmas and mysteries here.

I feel you are an unwelcome presence. The moderators and admin may decide by themselves what to do with your presence, but you are a disturbance here and in my humble opinion they must ban you from here, because you are wasting the time of those who doing dawah work here.

[Mr Green]

Salaams Br Green:

Coming back to your favourite theme of "fallacy" of Holy Qur'an?

;)

Salaams

No, just responding to points made by others. I do not believe Qur'aan to be false.

Wa salaams

[Asif]

I feel you are an unwelcome presence. The moderators and admin may decide by themselves what to do with your presence, but you are a disturbance here and in my humble opinion they must ban you from here, because you are wasting the time of those who doing dawah work here.

As-Salamu-Alaikum Dear Sister !

Whilst I do not agree with alot of things Mr Green says, I do think that it may be a bit harsh of you, my dear sister, to have said what you have said above. I can understand that you are unhappy and concerned (as are many of us) about alot of things Mr Green might say/does say, but so long as he complies with the rules of this website, we won't have any right to ban him.

With that said, I'd like to remind Mr Green that this website aims to promote Sunni teachings and we do not appreciate such statements as "The Qur'an is not free from mistakes/fallacies/inconsistencies".

We believe that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah; His Speech. It is not a creature of Allah Ta'ala (created by Him), but is His Speech, and is thus free from mistakes/fallacies/inconsistencies, etc.

May Allah guide you and me, Ameen.

Wassalam,
Asif.

[Mr Green]

[QUOTE=Sadika]Salaams Br Green:

I don't agree with you at all and I find you dangerous because your aim is to take us to desbelief. I have been following your threads for a while and I found that you are not seeking knwoledge, as contrary to what you said about Islam, you are dogmatic and mysterious indeed, these words are applicable to you. You want to bring your dogmas and mysteries here.
[QUOTE]

Salaams sister,

Do you presume to know what Allaah Alone knows? Please be careful sister in making the presumptions you are making.

"O you who believe! Let not one group scoff at another group, it may be that the latter are better than the former; nor let women scoff at other women, it may be that the latter are better than the former, nor defame one another, nor insult one another by nicknames. How bad it is to insult one's brother after having faith. And whosoever does not repent, then such are indeed Zaalimuun. O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it. And fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful." (49:11-12)

Wa salaams

[Mr Green]

As-Salamu-Alaikum Dear Sister !

Whilst I do not agree with alot of things Mr Green says, I do think that it may be a bit harsh of you, my dear sister, to have said what you have said above. I can understand that you are unhappy and concerned (as are many of us) about alot of things Mr Green might say/does say, but so long as he complies with the rules of this website, we won't have any right to ban him.

With that said, I'd like to remind Mr Green that this website aims to promote Sunni teachings and we do not appreciate such statements as "The Qur'an is not free from mistakes/fallacies/inconsistencies".

We belieev that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah; His Speech. It is not a creature of Allah Ta'ala (created by Him), but is His Speech, and is thus free from mistakes/fallacies/inconsistencies, etc.

May Allah guide you and me, Ameen.

Wassalam,
Asif.

Salaams brother Asif,

May take you up on something which has been debated by the scholars: your last paragraph? Some scholars have argued as you have argued, others have argued that Qur'aan IS a part of Allaah's Creation.

Wa salaams

[Asif]

Salaams brother Asif,

May take you up on something which has been debated by the scholars: your last paragraph? Some scholars have argued as you have argued, others have argued that Qur'aan IS a part of Allaah's Creation.

Wa salaams

The belief that the the Qur'an is a creature of Allah (SWT) is a Mu'tazila and Shia belief. It is not the belief of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jammah. The Qur'an is the Speech/Word of Allah (SWT) and is uncreated.

If you wish to further discuss this matter, then you are free to contact a Sunni mutakalim who is willing to answer your questions, Insha'Allah. Unfortunatey, I am not a mutakalim or a scholar.

[lubna]

Assalamoalykum

br. green you said,
''If you think a non-Muslim can challenge Qur'aan, then why not a Muslim?''
my reply,

A muslim is not a muslim until he beives in the Quraan,see the problem in your statement?
its like if an athieset can say there is no God, how come a beleiver cant say it as well...... ;)
as for challangeing quraan , it has been proven that there has been no change , and hence the reason non muslims convert to islam after finding it out that it has been still the same as it was at the time of revelation. the little example is the method of preserving it i.e by memorising the whole quraan. have you ever met a christain or a jerw who has memorised the whole bible or torah.... :)

you qouted the ayah,
O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it. And fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful." (49:11-12)

my response,
see the highlighted word 'much' that means a suspision under limits is allowed, other wise how would we use safety techniques and planing against the enemy.and some suspicions indeed are sins. but not all.

i can relate to sister sadika's feelings as those were my feelings too, but am trying to put a brave face on inshaAllah :) and hoping shytaan will not take the better of any of us at all inshaAllah. and this ayah is my strength inshaAllah.
Nay! We hurl the Truth against falsehood and it does smash it’s brains and thus it perishes. And woe be to you for what you describe (with your tongues). Qur'an 21:18

may Allah keep us on the right path Ameen and save us from the traps of shaytan Ameen.
wassalam
lubna

[Mr Green]

Assalamoalykum

br. green you said,
''If you think a non-Muslim can challenge Qur'aan, then why not a Muslim?''
my reply,

A muslim is not a muslim until he beives in the Quraan,see the problem in your statement?
its like if an athieset can say there is no God, how come a beleiver cant say it as well...... ;)
as for challangeing quraan , it has been proven that there has been no change , and hence the reason non muslims convert to islam after finding it out that it has been still the same as it was at the time of revelation. the little example is the method of preserving it i.e by memorising the whole quraan. have you ever met a christain or a jerw who has memorised the whole bible or torah.... :)

you qouted the ayah,
O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it. And fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful." (49:11-12)

my response,
see the highlighted word 'much' that means a suspision under limits is allowed, other wise how would we use safety techniques and planing against the enemy.and some suspicions indeed are sins. but not all.

i can relate to sister sadika's feelings as those were my feelings too, but am trying to put a brave face on inshaAllah :) and hoping shytaan will not take the better of any of us at all inshaAllah. and this ayah is my strength inshaAllah.
Nay! We hurl the Truth against falsehood and it does smash it’s brains and thus it perishes. And woe be to you for what you describe (with your tongues). Qur'an 21:18

may Allah keep us on the right path Ameen and save us from the traps of shaytan Ameen.
wassalam


lubna

Salaams sister

I believe it is possible to believe in Qur'aan and still assert that it may have been corrupted. The two are not mutually contradictory (can I say that admin/moderators? I am just responding to a point here, I am not directly attacking Qur'aan).

I shall not take your indirect challenge up of discussing whether or not it has been changed.

In response to non-Muslims converting, why do so many convert back out of Islaam again in the ensuing years? I find this deeply worrying. Clearly we are not doing as good a job as we should in this cause of ours.

Your remarks about 49:11-12 are right; my point in posting these Verses up was merely a warning, because when it comes to judging others we have to be extremely careful.

If you take refuge in Allaah, as you appear to be doing here, then He will protect you against the assault of Shaitaan.

Wa salaams

[Lulua]

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

Sis Lubna has touched upon an extremely important aspect in her last message. And that is that as muslims, we are to take and believe in the Quran as a whole...without question to it's authenticity. And yet it proves itself as it developes. And it appeals verse after verse to the sense of reason and logic. Without need to question. Unlike the other scriptures (Bible, etc. )

No harm in questioning the scholars themselves, who are humans, but of course in most respectful manner.

SubhanAllah...even the scholars of old were famous for their utmost quality of respect towards one another, even in times when they were not in agreement on a particular point or topic. Each held their own ground, yet all in the manner of the highest respect.

But to 'question' the Quran or the message of Islam...is something else entirely. Examine it, helping to prove it's true divine nature and essence. But not questioning in the manner of disbelief. This is where the danger lies for the individual. Not the message...for that is something protected as promised by Allah.

May Allah help and guide us all.

Lulua.

[Mr Green]

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

Sis Lubna has touched upon an extremely important aspect in her last message. And that is that as muslims, we are to take and believe in the Quran as a whole...without question to it's authenticity. And yet it proves itself as it developes. And it appeals verse after verse to the sense of reason and logic. Without need to question. Unlike the other scriptures (Bible, etc. )

No harm in questioning the scholars themselves, who are humans, but of course in most respectful manner.

SubhanAllah...even the scholars of old were famous for their utmost quality of respect towards one another, even in times when they were not in agreement on a particular point or topic. Each held their own ground, yet all in the manner of the highest respect.

But to 'question' the Quran or the message of Islam...is something else entirely. Examine it, helping to prove it's true divine nature and essence. But not questioning in the manner of disbelief. This is where the danger lies for the individual. Not the message...for that is something protected as promised by Allah.

May Allah help and guide us all.

Lulua.

Salaams sister,

I realise I am in a minority with my views. But I seek not the approval of men (or women), only the Approval of Allaah. I have the Prophets as my examples, people who were not afraid to stand up for the Truth when all around them said otherwise. Nuuh (as) is one of my favourites.

Wa salaams

Wa salaams

[Tayeb]

Assalamu-alaikum Br Green:

Let me ask you to stop bringing the same matters on Qur'an and Ahadeeth that you have done since you registered. Our rules and aims are clear.

Otherwise we'll have no other choice but start giving you warning points, based on spamming, unless the post is deemed to be penalised with higher number of points.

We request you not to bring the same matters that has been already classified as not welcome in this discussion board.

Any matter related to questioning the authenticity of verses of the Holy Quran and Ahadeeth will receive immediately at least 1 point of warning and the message may be removed or edited.

Repeated warnings may lead to complete banning.

Let's proceed to other type of discussions that you may like to participate in.

Ma'a-salaama,

[Mr Green]

Assalamu-alaikum Br Green:

Let me ask you to stop bringing the same matters on Qur'an and Ahadeeth that you have done since you registered. Our rules and aims are clear.

Otherwise we'll have no other choice but start giving you warning points, based on spamming, unless the post is deemed to be penalised with higher number of points.

We request you not to bring the same matters that has been already classified as not welcome in this discussion board.

Any matter related to questioning the authenticity of verses of the Holy Quran and Ahadeeth will receive immediately at least 1 point of warning and the message may be removed or edited.

Repeated warnings may lead to complete banning.

Let's proceed to other type of discussions that you may like to participate in.

Ma'a-salaama,

Salaams brother,

With respect, I did not raise the topic this time.

Wa salaams

[Zainab]

AA

Sorry Mr Green I didnt mean to offend you anyway :)

Thank you
Zainab

[Mr Green]

AA

Sorry Mr Green I didnt mean to offend you anyway :)

Thank you
Zainab

Salaams sister,

Don't worry, you did not offend in any way :)

Wa salaams