View Full Version : perfect man,perfect woman
Once upon a time, a perfect man and a perfect woman met. they had a perfect wedding. Their life together was, of course, perfect. One snowy, stormy Christmas Eve, this perfect couple was driving their perfect car along a winding road, when they noticed someone at the side of the road in distress.
Being the perfect couple, they stopped to help. There stood Santa Claus with a huge bundle of toys. Not wanting to disappoint any children on the eve of Christmas, the perfect couple loaded Santa and his toys into their vehicle. Soon they were driving along delivering the toys.
Unfortunately, the driving conditions deteriorated and the perfect couple and Santa Claus had an accident. Only one survived the accident.
Question: Who was the survivor ????????????? (Scroll down for the answer. Trust me, it's worth it)
Answer: The perfect woman survived. She's the only one who really existed in the first place.
Everyone knows there is no Santa Claus and there is no such thing as a perfect man. Women stop reading here, that is the end of the joke.
Men keep scrolling.
So, if there is no perfect man and no Santa Claus then woman must have been driving. This explains why there was a car accident.
Men keep scrolling.
By the way, if you're a woman and you're still reading, this illustrates another point: Women never listen..... :p :p :p
Mr Green
10-10-2004, 00:56
Stereotyping can be great, can't it? :)
tbahrain
10-10-2004, 07:52
I kept on scrolling even after the last sentence thus proving I am not a perfect man then :D :D :D :D
Stereotyping can be great, can't it? :)
yes stereotyping is great when done ONLY for fun and humour, but when you start beleiveing it and get serious then you get astray.
as for me being a muslim woman, i can never be thankful enough to Allah for making me that, Alhumdulillah,( and so is a muslim man).
.as a daughter, i am the cuase of taking a father to heaven if he raises 3 of his daughters properly( hadeeth)
.as a wife, my husband is among the best if he is best to me ( hadeeth)
.as a mother jannah lies under my feet for my kids ( hadeeth)
.and among the things loved by our prophet saw woman is one of them!(hadeeth)
Alhumdulilah the status given to women in islam is the best and perfect!
and these perfect man, perfect woamn,ideal man,faminist woman, career woman,having it all woman,independent woman, liberated woman .....etc are all terms originated by west, i only refer to them either for feeling sorry for western woman, or for having a bit of a laugh at thier foolishness( i know its not very nice of me..... but am only not so perfect human yet.....sorry!!) but i think you cant stop laughing if someone does a silly thing but believing/boasting he/she is doing a clever thing.
any way i think i have done enough analysis of the joke now.....better stop as i can go on and on for being a WOMAN....... :p :p
wassalam
lubna
I kept on scrolling even after the last sentence thus proving I am not a perfect man then :D :D :D :D
as for you my respected brother tbahrain, you are the PERFECT brother for me Alhumdulillah/MashaAllah, may Allah keep this bond of respect a strong one Ameen.
wassalam
lubna
Mr Green
10-10-2004, 23:55
yes stereotyping is great when done ONLY for fun and humour, but when you start beleiveing it and get serious then you get astray.
as for me being a muslim woman, i can never be thankful enough to Allah for making me that, Alhumdulillah,( and so is a muslim man).
.as a daughter, i am the cuase of taking a father to heaven if he raises 3 of his daughters properly( hadeeth)
.as a wife, my husband is among the best if he is best to me ( hadeeth)
.as a mother jannah lies under my feet for my kids ( hadeeth)
.and among the things loved by our prophet saw woman is one of them!(hadeeth)
Alhumdulilah the status given to women in islam is the best and perfect!
and these perfect man, perfect woamn,ideal man,faminist woman, career woman,having it all woman,independent woman, liberated woman .....etc are all terms originated by west, i only refer to them either for feeling sorry for western woman, or for having a bit of a laugh at thier foolishness( i know its not very nice of me..... but am only not so perfect human yet.....sorry!!) but i think you cant stop laughing if someone does a silly thing but believing/boasting he/she is doing a clever thing.
any way i think i have done enough analysis of the joke now.....better stop as i can go on and on for being a WOMAN....... :p :p
wassalam
lubna
Salaams,
There are things I could say here about how some of our illustrious scholars view women, but I fear I shall get warning points, so I shall desist. Islaam does indeed accord women the highest honour and the Holy Prophet (saws) was indeed a champion of women's rights, but I am afraid to say not all our scholars by any means follow in his footsteps.
Wa salaams
Assalaamu alaikum.
Amusing rendition. Thanku for sharing it with us, sister.
Anyways...about our beloved prophet(SAAW)...as we have been told in the Quran: he is the perfect exempler. No doubt about that, as with all else that lies within the Book.
And, even tho he (SAAW) was human, and was selected as messenger for us to represent the human possibility of attaining such perfection...yet sadly no one truly can achieve that at all times, as he(SAAW) did. That is one of the miracles of his(SAAW) status.
Yet, human he was, to give us inspiration and encouragement to attempt to set our goals towards such perfection.
Anyways...to get my long wind down a bit...if we were perfect...then we certainly would not be humans, now...would we? I mean...if we were perfect and sinless, then certainly we would be angels!!
The 'non-perfection' is one of the aspects of human qualities according to it's very essence of creation.
Of course, Allah's creation is perfect in all manners. There is no mistake in any of it. But it is part of our nature as humans, that we are not perfect in all ways.
And this is part of the test and passing that test of this life period...that we need to humble ourselves to realize our 'non-perfectness'.
May Allah help and guide us all.
Lulua.
Mr Green
12-10-2004, 00:24
Assalaamu alaikum.
Amusing rendition. Thanku for sharing it with us, sister.
Anyways...about our beloved prophet(SAAW)...as we have been told in the Quran: he is the perfect exempler. No doubt about that, as with all else that lies within the Book.
And, even tho he (SAAW) was human, and was selected as messenger for us to represent the human possibility of attaining such perfection...yet sadly no one truly can achieve that at all times, as he(SAAW) did. That is one of the miracles of his(SAAW) status.
Yet, human he was, to give us inspiration and encouragement to attempt to set our goals towards such perfection.
Anyways...to get my long wind down a bit...if we were perfect...then we certainly would not be humans, now...would we? I mean...if we were perfect and sinless, then certainly we would be angels!!
The 'non-perfection' is one of the aspects of human qualities according to it's very essence of creation.
Of course, Allah's creation is perfect in all manners. There is no mistake in any of it. But it is part of our nature as humans, that we are not perfect in all ways.
And this is part of the test and passing that test of this life period...that we need to humble ourselves to realize our 'non-perfectness'.
May Allah help and guide us all.
Lulua.
Salaams,
We have to be careful here in how we view our Holy Prophet (saws). Both Allaah in Qur'aan and the Prophet himself (saws) in Ahadeeth warn us against viewing him in other than human terms, with human weaknesses and frailties.
Muhammad (saws) is not the perfect example, he is the best example. These are not the same things. Perfection is one of the Qualities of Allaah. As such, no human can ever attain to it. Though we can never attain it completely, we must continually strive for it, for in the striving we will get much closer. The Holy Prophet (saws) made mistakes, just like the rest of us. He was only human after all. Qur'aan bears testament to some of his mistakes; others are described in Ahadeeth. This is what makes him such a good example, because he was just like us, so in being asked to follow him we have been set a realistic target, something we can realistically achieve.
We should view the Holy Prophet (saws) as our teacher, and his Companions (ra) as our fellow students. The good teacher is of course very aware that he is also a student, and as such can also learn from his own students. That is why in Ahadeeth we have examples describing the Holy Prophet (saws) taking the advice of his Companions (ra) on various matters, including religious ones. And we ourselves can not only learn from him as our teacher, we can also learn from our fellow students, which include his Companions (ra).
Wa salaams
Assalaamu alaikum.
I stand corrected. Mistake made clear.
Thankyou, Mr. Green...for pointing that out...that the statement in the Quran regarding our beloved prophet (SAAW) is: 'best exempler'...and not perfect.
Ah...just one more example...of our human imperfections.
May Allah forgive me for my unintentional mistake.
Lulua.
Mr Green
12-10-2004, 14:37
Salaams sister,
Thank you sister for your humility.
Just one more thing on the subject of perfection:
I mean...if we were perfect and sinless, then certainly we would be angels!!
The Angels of Allaah are not perfect either. In the incompleteness of their knowledge, they questioned Allaah as to why they should bow down before Aadam (as), complaining why should they bow down before a man, when men would make michief on the Earth, when they glorify Him with praises day and night. Allaah then corrected them saying that He knows that which they know not, and then He taught Aadam (as) the names of things, and then asked the Angels whether they knew the names of things, and of course they did not because He had not taught them, and then He asked Aadam (as), and Aadam (as) told them. This story is important because not only does it teach us that the Angels are imperfect too - so we should not be tempted to worship them as others had done in the past, arguing that they were perfect and sinless - but also that the Angels are in fact subservient to us. They were not given free will, we together with the djinn have been. If we choose to submit to Allaah, our reward is therefore greater. We have the capacity within us to rise above the Angels.
Wa salaams
Salaams,
Muhammad (saws) is not the perfect example, he is the best example.
These are not the same things.
Assalamoalykum br. green
since you are playing with words, i had to consult my dictionary, here it is
perfect: complete,finished,whole,unspoilt,faultless,correct ,precise,excellent,of high quality.
best: commendable,right,proper,excellent,beneficial,well-behaved,virtuous,kind,adequate,sound,valid.
to me all of these fit the character of our beloved prophet muhammad saw
and let me be clear we are talking about human qualities here and not divine attributes. like we can call a person abdur rahman, though rahman is a divine attribute, similarly we can call prophet saw a perfect human and best human.
now how can we? simple, becos Allah made him so gradually, by correcting him where ever prophet saw showed human weakness. if a sentence initially written by a student with mistakes, is then corrected by The Teacher, remains no longer a wrong sentence but a perfect sentence!!
and it is for this reason Allah corrected every little flaw showed by our beloved prophet for being a human infront of the whole world , so not to leave any doubt about prophet saw being the perfect and best example for the rest of the world!!Allah didnt even let prophet saw stop eating honey!! see how minutely Allah was watching his prophet saw!
The Holy Prophet (saws) made mistakes, just like the rest of us. He was only human after all. Qur'aan bears testament to some of his mistakes; others are described in Ahadeeth. This is what makes him such a good example, because he was just like us, so in being asked to follow him we have been set a realistic target, something we can realistically achieve.
so yes he did make mistakes, but was corrected and was no longer an imperfect example of human.
as for angel and human i remember an urdu verse,
farishta mujh ko kehnay say meri toheen hoti hai
main masjoode malaik hoon mujhay insan rehnay do
meaning,
it is an insult to call me an angel
angels bowed down to me, call me human...... :)
may Allah guide us all to the truth Ameen
wassalam
lubna
Mr Green
12-10-2004, 22:28
Salaams sis lubna,
Assalamoalykum br. green
since you are playing with words, i had to consult my dictionary, here it is
perfect: complete,finished,whole,unspoilt,faultless,correct ,precise,excellent,of high quality.
best: commendable,right,proper,excellent,beneficial,well-behaved,virtuous,kind,adequate,sound,valid.
to me all of these fit the character of our beloved prophet muhammad saw
and let me be clear we are talking about human qualities here and not divine attributes.
With respect, it is not about playing with words. Someone can be the best that there is among humankind i.e. the Holy Prophet (saws), and still fall short of perfection. We have to be real careful when we call any human being perfect. This is exactly the mistake that the Christians made/make with respect to 'Iesa (as), and recognising this possibility, the Holy Prophet (saws) said: Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of 'Iesa (as), but call me the slave of Allaah and His Messenger (Saheeh Al-Bukharee). I will happily call the Holy Prophet (saws) the best example for us to follow, but I will not say that he was faultless.
like we can call a person abdur rahman, though rahman is a divine attribute, similarly we can call prophet saw a perfect human and best human.
"Abdur Rahmaan" does not mean the same thing as "Rahmaan". Is the name "Abdullaah" to be compared with the Name "Allaah"? Of course not! We would never call a person "Rahmaan", so similarly we should never call a person perfect, for One Alone is Perfect and That is Allaah Most High.
now how can we? simple, becos Allah made him so gradually, by correcting him where ever prophet saw showed human weakness. if a sentence initially written by a student with mistakes, is then corrected by The Teacher, remains no longer a wrong sentence but a perfect sentence!!
and it is for this reason Allah corrected every little flaw showed by our beloved prophet for being a human infront of the whole world , so not to leave any doubt about prophet saw being the perfect and best example for the rest of the world!!Allah didnt even let prophet saw stop eating honey!! see how minutely Allah was watching his prophet saw!
so yes he did make mistakes, but was corrected and was no longer an imperfect example of human.
Whilst what you say has logic to it, I personally prefer to call our Nabi (saws) the best among humankind, yes, but nevertheless an imperfect slave and Messenger of Allaah. To emphasise his humanity - and therefore his imperfection - Allaah had him die, and how? After a somewhat prolonged period of suffering after eating some poisoned meat. And to further draw a line under his humanity - and therefore his imperfection - Allaah sent 'Umar (ra) to confront Abu Bakr (ra) when the latter came out of the house to inform the waiting people that their Prophet and leader (saws) was dead with words of denial, how could he be dead?, and Allaah inspired Abu Bakr (ra) to remind 'Umar (ra) that the Holy Prophet (saws) was only a man, and therefore subject to death. We have to be so very careful in how we view the Holy Prophet (saws), lest we fall into the same trap the Christians fell into.
Wa salaams
Assalamoalykum br. green
seems like either you are confused again, or trying to say things which i never said....
you said,
"Abdur Rahmaan" does not mean the same thing as "Rahmaan". Is the name "Abdullaah" to be compared with the Name "Allaah"? Of course not! We would never call a person "Rahmaan", so similarly we should never call a person perfect, for One Alone is Perfect and That is Allaah Most High.''
i say,
read my words again, i.e'' like we can call a person abdur rahman, though rahman is a divine attribute, similarly we can call prophet saw a perfect human and best human.''
here the prefix abdur rahman has changed the meaning of Rahman, so the former is for man and later divine, similarly when we say perfect human
,it meant a quality for man, as Allah is not human. Allah is just 'Perfect' (infact he is rather 'perfection' itself if we go more deep)
. so my point we can use divine attribute but 1st have to change them in human terms.
you said,
''Whilst what you say has logic to it, I personally prefer to call our Nabi (saws) the best among humankind, yes, but nevertheless an imperfect slave and Messenger of Allaah. To emphasise his humanity - and therefore his imperfection - Allaah had him die, and how? After a somewhat prolonged period of suffering after eating some poisoned meat. And to further draw a line under his humanity - and therefore his imperfection - Allaah sent 'Umar (ra) to confront Abu Bakr (ra) when the latter came out of the house to inform the waiting people that their Prophet and leader (saws) was dead with words of denial, how could he be dead?, and Allaah inspired Abu Bakr (ra) to remind 'Umar (ra) that the Holy Prophet (saws) was only a man, and therefore subject to death. We have to be so very careful in how we view the Holy Prophet (saws), lest we fall into the same trap the Christians fell into.''
i say why all this lecture about him being human? where did i deny his humanistic character?please read my post again , i said he made flaws, i said he was corrected,i said he made mistakes.....proves that i beleive he was a human.
and how on earth his death becomes an imperfection? it is a natural process/end of a human life cycle.just like he felt hungry, went to sleep etc.
as for umar ra , we all know how passionate he was in all his actions, so what! if he got into a state of denial out of a strong love for prophet saw, but soon got out of it as soon as he heard the words of Allah recited by abu bakr ra. after all umar ra was a human as well.... :)
so please be assured i have full faith that prophet muhammad saw was a HUMAN( i better spell it out for you, incase you miss it again) but a special one! a fine specimin under close observations of Allah.
and hence was called a living example of Quraan! and we all know Quraan is the words of Allah
. so whats wrong if i call him the perfect human and best human , that is of course after corrections done to him by Allah ( which werent very many any way)
by the way christains raise isa as to the status of a divine being. and rejected that he was a human. and this is the whole argument/difference between us and them.
and lastly i am glad you found some logic in my words, its a start inshaAllah.
may Allah guide us all to the truth Ameen
wassalam
lubna
Mr Green
13-10-2004, 11:45
Salaams sister lubna,
Thank you for making clearer to me your reasons for citing "Abdur Rahmaan" as an example of why you think it is appropriate to call our Prophet (saws) an example of a perfect human.
Yes, I appreciate that you never said that he was not a human; however I believe that calling a human being perfect is the first step along the road to what the Christians did with 'Iesa (as), and that is why I think it is dangerous. That is why I think Allaah made a point of having the Holy Prophet (saws) die a suffering death - our suffering being a kind of payback for our sins - and that is why He inspired 'Umar (ra) to deny his death, so that He could again emphasise through Abu Bakr (ra) the humanity/imperfectness of the Holy Prophet (saws). For me, humanity is synonymous with imperfection.
Please tell me, where in Qur'aan does Allaah call the Holy Prophet (saws) perfect?
Wa salaams
Assalamoalykum brother
you said,
For me, humanity is synonymous with imperfection.
i say yes, it is but only when comparing with divinity. and alhumdulillah we both beleive that prophet saw was a human.and it is for this reason i used the word human after the two adjectives i used for prophet saw.
you also seem to think,
perfect human=divine.....how can it be so! so long it has the word 'human ' attatched to it, it will only go so far as a human can go and will never attain the perfection of divinity. as human and divine are both two different beings altogether.
you said,
Please tell me, where in Qur'aan does Allaah call the Holy Prophet (saws) perfect?
i say,where did i claim that Allah called prophet saw 'just perfect'?....no where!
but as for Allah praising his beloved prophet saw, here is the ayah
innaka la ala khuluqin azeem
see Allah Himself is calling his akhlaq azeem!.
and hazrat ayesha ra said about prophet saw, ''he is the living example of quraan''
and we all know there is no flaw in the quraan!
and prophet saw himself said,
''i am leaving you two things, Quraan and my sunnah, if you follow these two you will never go astray''
see the importance of the life,actions and words of prophet saw, Quraan is theory and sunnah is its practical. so please be very careful how you take prophet muhammad saw.
and remember how jews attatched all sorts of worst immoral stories to their prophets in an effort to make them humans,so they can get freedom to do all those shamefull acts as a religious act aoudubillah. when they took their prophets as human they took them to another extreme even lower than the ordinary humans Astaghfirullah.
and some of the prophets they took so forgranted that they even killed them without any hesitation.....now we dont want to be like them either! Asthafirullah.
so be careful when talking about our prophet saw as human, his humanity doesnt bring him to our lower level , he was still a PROPHET and can never come to our level.
with this post i shall conclude my debate inshaAllah.
may Allah guide us all to the truth Ameen
wassalam
lubna
Mr Green
13-10-2004, 14:23
Salaams sister,
Assalamoalykum brother
you said,
For me, humanity is synonymous with imperfection.
i say yes, it is but only when comparing with divinity. and alhumdulillah we both beleive that prophet saw was a human.and it is for this reason i used the word human after the two adjectives i used for prophet saw.
Okay, so maybe we are just getting caught up on the words here. I still feel very uncomfortable using the word "perfect" in association with anything other than Allaah, even our beloved Prophet (saws), but we both agree that Muhammad (saws) was the best among humankind and in that sense I can agree that he was as perfect as it is humanly possible to get.
you also seem to think,
perfect human=divine.....how can it be so! so long it has the word 'human ' attatched to it, it will only go so far as a human can go and will never attain the perfection of divinity. as human and divine are both two different beings altogether.
I most certainly do not! I take refuge in Allaah from ever being led so far astray!
Since it seems relevant here, I believe we should view Muhammad (saws) as Allaah has described him:
"And verily you (O Muhammad) have an exalted standard of character." (AQ 68:4)
"Say: O humankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allaah - to Whom belongs the Dominion of the heavens and the Earth. None has the right to be worshipped but He; it is He Who gives life and causes death." (AQ 7:158)
"Say: I possess no power of benefit or hurt to myself except as Allaah wills. If I had the knowledge of the Unseen, I should have secured for myself an abundance of wealth, and no evil should have touched me. I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings unto people who believe." (AQ 7:188)
"Say: I am only a man like you. It has been inspired to me that your God is One God. So whoever hopes for the Meeting with his Lord, let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his Lord." (AQ 18:110)
"Say: I am only a human being like you. It has been inspired to me that your God is One God, therefore take a Straight Path and obedience to Him, and seek forgiveness from Him. And woe to Al-Mushrikuun (those who associate partners in worship with Allaah)." (AQ 41:6)
"Muhammad (saws) is no more than a Messenger, and indeed Messengers have passed away before him." (AQ 3:144)
"Indeed in the Messenger of Allaah you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in Allaah and the Last Day and remembers Allaah much." (AQ 33:21)
"Muhammad (saws) is not the father of any man amongst you, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last of the Prophets." (AQ 33:40)
"Say: I am not a new thing among the Messengers nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am but a plain warner." (AQ 46:9)
see the importance of the life,actions and words of prophet saw, Quraan is theory and sunnah is its practical. so please be very careful how you take prophet muhammad saw.
Qur'aan is not just theory. Qur'aan has a mix of the theory and the practice. We can find Sunnah of the Prophet (saws) in Qur'aan also.
and remember how jews attatched all sorts of worst immoral stories to their prophets in an effort to make them humans,so they can get freedom to do all those shamefull acts as a religious act aoudubillah. when they took their prophets as human they took them to another extreme even lower than the ordinary humans Astaghfirullah.
and some of the prophets they took so forgranted that they even killed them without any hesitation.....now we dont want to be like them either! Asthafirullah.
so be careful when talking about our prophet saw as human, his humanity doesnt bring him to our lower level , he was still a PROPHET and can never come to our level.
Of course the humanity of the Prophet (saws) does not bring him to a lower level, I am not suggesting anything of the sort! I am just saying let's not exalt him too much either. He was just a man, with human frailties and weaknesses. Yes, he was a Messenger of Allaah, the last of the Prophets, a truly great and noble man, whom we should do our best to follow, but he was just like you and me. He had the same hopes, dreams and fears, the same tendencies, the same weaknesses, he had likes and dislikes, he made mistakes, sometimes he forgot Allaah - else why did he feel the need to repent to Allaah more than seventy times a day?
"Say: I am only a man like you. It has been inspired to me that your God is One God. So whoever hopes for the Meeting with his Lord, let him work righteousness and associate none as a partner in the worship of his Lord." (AQ 18:110)
"Say: I am only a human being like you. It has been inspired to me that your God is One God, therefore take a Straight Path and obedience to Him, and seek forgiveness from Him. And woe to Al-Mushrikuun (those who associate partners in worship with Allaah)." (AQ 41:6)
He just did a better job of overcoming his selfishness, and of course he was chosen by Allaah as a Messenger and example for all humankind, and the last of the Prophets.
Wa salaams
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