I am A Muslim and A Christian and Proud to say so! [Archive]

amlhabibi2000

03-03-2005, 01:56

Dear Anne-Marie:

This is self-contradictory statement of being Muslim and Christian at the same time, unless you consider Jesus, peace be upon him, as a prophet of Allah and not a god-reincarnate. Do you mean that?

Islam was the religion of Jesus and other prophets like Moses, Abraham, etc. as you rightly say in another post it means submission to the Will of Allah.

Hence Jesus was a Muslim and he followed Islam.

Actual Christianity believes in Jesus as a god-reincarnate, as god himself, Allah forbid.

It may seem contradictory but this is how I feel and what I believe.

I believe I can be both and more.

Anyway this is the path I choose.

Interesting point about God - Incarnate.

. O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, Who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women; reverence Allah, through Whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (that bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 4)

***************
28. Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay, from mud molded into shape;

29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

30. So the angels prostrated themselves all of them together:

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 15)

***********
These refernces confirmed my belief that Allah lives within each of us and therefore we all deserve a noble title.

It has only been ruthless and mean people who deny the Holy Spirits existence in each of us because of a lack of education and understanding.

Essentially the Lord created us equal and it is for us to see that there is equality in our lives.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Deathpasser

03-03-2005, 03:53

"
It may seem contradictory but this is how I feel and what I believe.

I believe I can be both and more."

Then you are Christian, because Christians beleive in contradictary statement that Isa(as) can be 3 persons at the same time. You are just mimicing Christian beleif.

"
It has only been ruthless and mean people who deny the Holy Spirits existence in each of us because of a lack of education and understanding."

The verse makes it plain that it is refering to God breathed life into Adam(as). There is no mention anywhere of God breathing the "holy spirit" into Adam(as), if that is the case then stop worshipping Jesus--the man with no father and worship Adam--the man with no father or mother! p.s. I don't really mean that, I'm pointing out a fundamental flaw in your idea.

Essentially the Lord created us equal and it is for us to see that there is equality in our lives.

I completely agree that God created all humans as equals, but where in Quran does it say we stay equal. A person is judged by his/her deeds--you were born equal but you make yourself better or worse. If you don't beleie that then all people should be in heaven with there being no Hell. Or all people should burn in Hell and there should be no heaven.

amlhabibi2000

03-03-2005, 04:34

"
I completely agree that God created all humans as equals, but where in Quran does it say we stay equal. A person is judged by his/her deeds--you were born equal but you make yourself better or worse. If you don't beleie that then all people should be in heaven with there being no Hell. Or all people should burn in Hell and there should be no heaven.

I agree with some of this statement.

I would add that we affect others also by our action or inaction.

We of course create hell ourselves by doing or not doing, by being educated or not educated.

By apathy or by over exerburent actions.

Life is a complicated as we want to make it or as simple as we want to make.

There is hope and it begins with us.

Thank you for your comment.

My beliefs are my beliefs take them or leave.

I am still on the journey of learning, patience.

Deathpasser

03-03-2005, 05:18

amlhabibi2000

03-03-2005, 06:08

"My beliefs are my beliefs take them or leave."

Your beleifs are irrational and logic is completely absent. You say you are Muslim yet Christian?!?!? Christian=3 Gods, Islam=1 God. You are saying 1=3, you are Christian, not Muslim.

Father, son and Holy Ghost are not three Gods.

It is just another way of saying the Lordf exists in all of us and indeed we are of many identities ie, I me, you, they, their, we, our etc. This is something similar and I do not believe it is detremental to anyone to say I exist in three person, Me, Myself and I as the expression goes.

Sometimes we are so intent on finding things wrong we forget what we fiond right.

I am building my Faith and My Beliefs on what I find Right and Juste in Islam, Christianity, Buddism, Judaism, etc.

If I build my Faith and Beliefs on wqhat is good and juste then I feel I am doing service to Allah andf Being a Good Muslim or one who submits to the will of Allah.

I apologize for the confusion but make no mistake this is the path I have choosen and I have done so freely without coersion or force as it is Allah I need fear and no one else and even Allah is most forgiving when I spell poorly or miss a word or forget all of what was on my heart and mind to reveal.

I mean no one any disrespect and I appreciate others follow Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc differently, this is my approach to Allah and my road to walk.

Whether others choose it is up to them as they have their road and I mean to misguide no one, this is just my path and my beliefs.

lubna

03-03-2005, 12:40

I am building my Faith and My Beliefs on what I find Right and Juste in Islam, Christianity, Buddism, Judaism, etc.

I mean no one any disrespect and I appreciate others follow Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc differently, this is my approach to Allah and my road to walk.

.

hello Anne marie

what are your views on jews and judaism? and why dont you call yourself, a muslim/christian/jew.....as i am sure you know jews are the people of the book too, so why leave them out and discriminate them!!

unless of course you dont want to be termed as 'anti semetic' by putting their name together with GENTILES religion.... and dont want to insult them :) :) :)

peace
lubna

amlhabibi2000

03-03-2005, 12:49

hello Anne marie

what are your views on jews and judaism? and why dont you call yourself, a muslim/christian/jew.....as i am sure you know jews are the people of the book too, so why leave them out and discriminate them!!

unless of course you dont want to be termed as 'anti semetic' by putting their name together with GENTILES religion.... and dont want to insult them :) :) :)

peace
lubna

Lubna

Thank you for pointing that out actually I do include this relgion but for the sake of time I often ommit it and some other religions as well as then the debate gets to large.

amlhabibi2000

03-03-2005, 12:54

47.29 . Or do those in whose hearts is a disease deem that Allah will not bring to light their ( secret ) hates?
47.30 . And if We would , We could show them unto thee ( Muhammad ) so that thou shouldst know them surely by their marks . And thou shalt know them by the burden of their talk . And Allah knoweth your deeds . .

Nay! We hurl the Truth against falsehood and it does smash it’s brains and thus it perishes. And woe be to you for what you describe (with your tongues). Qur'an 21:18

Indeed there is a woe but talking about ones beliefs is no cause for violence unless of course we say we are going to or are planning to hurt someone including ourselves.

Unfortunately the Fear of Allah has been marred by the fear of humans.

Though if someone told me they had plans to kill themselves or someone else I might call 911.

As I said speaking of your beliefs is no cause for alarm or violence.

Only beware least you hide your true beliefs and try to restrict others from their belief unless as I said it is a belief they should harm themselves or others.

Or unless it is a belief that we should not help the poor.

lubna

03-03-2005, 18:42

47.29 . Or do those in whose hearts is a disease deem that Allah will not bring to light their ( secret ) hates?
47.30 . And if We would , We could show them unto thee ( Muhammad ) so that thou shouldst know them surely by their marks . And thou shalt know them by the burden of their talk . And Allah knoweth your deeds . .

Allow me to explain Anne!

in the above ayahs Allah is taking about the munafiqeen i.e hyppocrets, and telling us that HE always exposes their secret hates and plans. and Allah is teaching us how to recognise them i.e by the way they talk.
as we dont take peoples words for what they claim to be but what they stand for and what ideology they propmote, so if a person 'claims' i am a peace lover but then he turns around and gets busy in causing fitnah and trouble on earth....only a fool or a blind will call him a peace lover!

same goes to people who call themselves muslims i.e the one who submit to ALlah, but then they trun around and bow down to any kuffar who gives them wroldy benefit and they clearly disobey Allah, only a blind fool will still take them as muslims.
so yes my signatures are a warning/reminder for the coward hypocrets .

and the ayah about truth and falsehood speaks for itself i.e

'The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.'

'truth is like olive oil in water ,keeps coming up'

so this ayah is a warning for the promoters of falsehood! that they are a sure losers! as Allah himself is cursing them!

entirely my pleasure to explain to you Anne mari..... :) :)

amlhabibi2000

03-03-2005, 19:52

Allow me to explain Anne!

in the above ayahs Allah is taking about the munafiqeen i.e hyppocrets, and telling us that HE always exposes their secret hates and plans. and Allah is teaching us how to recognise them i.e by the way they talk.
as we dont take peoples words for what they claim to be but what they stand for and what ideology they propmote, so if a person 'claims' i am a peace lover but then he turns around and gets busy in causing fitnah and trouble on earth....only a fool or a blind will call him a peace lover!

same goes to people who call themselves muslims i.e the one who submit to ALlah, but then they trun around and bow down to any kuffar who gives them wroldy benefit and they clearly disobey Allah, only a blind fool will still take them as muslims.
so yes my signatures are a warning/reminder for the coward hypocrets .

and the ayah about truth and falsehood speaks for itself i.e

'The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.'

'truth is like olive oil in water ,keeps coming up'

so this ayah is a warning for the promoters of falsehood! that they are a sure losers! as Allah himself is cursing them!

entirely my pleasure to explain to you Anne mari..... :) :)

Lubna

The pleasure is all mine in learning your perspective and the commonly held perspective.

I am not saying I am right , I am saying this is my belief, some will take it and some will leave it.

My hope is that at the very least it will encourage people to think a little more than they have been.

In the end we all have freedom to choose our path and return to Allah.

I am enjoying very much learning more about the Quran, Hadeath and Sunnah as I go along, and it does indeed prompt me to make a response with how I feel about it or believe it to mean or be.

No one is forced to belive as I do.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Zainab

03-03-2005, 20:16

amlhabibi2000

03-03-2005, 20:27

AA

Of course anne marie we are not forced to believe as you do but we are trying to educate you AND I am trying to understand you becuse what youre saying (that ure christian muslim and a jew) I belive is toatally wrong!

AH
Zainab

No problem Zainab, sharing our beliefs and understanding is why I am here to learn and share.

Hope you will be patient with me, I am one of Billions of Muslims (One who submits to Allah and each of us submits in degrees, some 10%, 20%, 30%, 40 % etc but in the end we all in the end end up submitting completely to Allah at our end time and in the here after.

Therefore as I said I believe everyone regardless of what spiritual path come under the umbrella of the Ummah of Islam. Under this umbrella there are many paths set before us to choose from and we are in the end free to choose while in this life if we are allowed to.

Salam Ali Koam Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Tayeb

03-03-2005, 22:48

Dear Anne-Marie:

The path of Islam is quite clear. It's based on the Holy Qur'an and ahadith (traditions) of the Prophet.

One cannot be Muslim and at the same time be a Christian, a Jew etc. Either you are a Muslim or not. To be a Muslim you have to believe in Oneness of God and that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is his Last Messenger. There never will be messengers of Allah after Muhammad. Even when Jesus returns he will be from the Ummah of the Prophet.

I have known for quite a number of years, participating for a while here, going away and returning. I think your message seems to be the same. You keep on repeating that we are Messiah, Prophets etc. You are using these words wrongly if in fact you don't use them literally.

I suggest you join Qur'an classes and learn better Islam going to the source, the Holy Book. I believe you live in Canada. I am sure there are some good groups where you can learn the Qur'an.

Ma'a-salaama,

Tayeb

03-03-2005, 22:51

Dear Anne-Marie:

On Qur'an classes please contact ISNA Canada. Their website is at:

http://www.isnacanada.com/

Ma'a-salaama,

amlhabibi2000

03-03-2005, 23:55

Dear Anne-Marie:

On Qur'an classes please contact ISNA Canada. Their website is at:

http://www.isnacanada.com/

Ma'a-salaama,

Thank you

I will do that.

Zainab

04-03-2005, 19:55

AA bros' and sis'

Hope you will be patient with me, I am one of Billions of Muslims (One who submits to Allah and each of us submits in degrees, some 10%, 20%, 30%, 40 % etc but in the end we all in the end end up submitting completely to Allah at our end time and in the here after.

Its good that you think that you will submit to allah completely - as you say - 'in the end' but I dont understand:

You said 'in the end we all in the end end up submitting completely to Allah at our end time and in the here after'. All of the people will not submit completely to Allah - thats why there is a heaven and a hell!!! It doesnt make sense!!!

By 'In the hearafter' i presume you either mean judgement day OR after that; when we are all in heaven or hell. If you mean judgement day then we will then all belive in Allah but that wont matter becuse we wont be able to do anything or even ask for forgiveness so waiting untill then to submit yourself fully is a very futile idea. Also if you meant after judgement day, then that means a time when either you will be in heaven for submitting ureself fully to Allah WHILST you were on this world or in hell for not submitting ureself fully to allah whilst you were on this earth and there can be no argument about that. We will not need to pray or anything in heaven so if you mean your comment in that way then im afraid it doesnt make sense.

Therefore as I said I believe everyone regardless of what spiritual path come under the umbrella of the Ummah of Islam.

How is that so? There is only 1 spiritual path and that is in the Quaran.

Under this umbrella there are many paths set before us to choose from and we are in the end free to choose while in this life if we are allowed to.

There is only one path! 'Sirrat al Musthaqueem'!! THE right path and no other that will ever lead you to heaven except islam!! If you mean the diffent sects of Islam (sunni, shi'a etc.) then being a christian and a muslim isnt a sect at all 'under the umbrella of ISLAM'.

There is only one path. There is only one way. There are the commonly known '5 pillars of Islam'. They are for a reason. There is also no way how being a christian and a muslim is in any way shape or form possible. There in the quar'an is states that Jesus did not die on the cross. It sates Jesus NEVER is/was/ever will be the son of God.

That, Anne-Marie, is Islam.

AH
Zainab

amlhabibi2000

05-03-2005, 02:07

AA bros' and sis'

Its good that you think that you will submit to allah completely - as you say - 'in the end' but I dont understand:

You said 'in the end we all in the end end up submitting completely to Allah at our end time and in the here after'. All of the people will not submit completely to Allah - thats why there is a heaven and a hell!!! It doesnt make sense!!!

By 'In the hearafter' i presume you either mean judgement day OR after that; when we are all in heaven or hell. If you mean judgement day then we will then all belive in Allah but that wont matter becuse we wont be able to do anything or even ask for forgiveness so waiting untill then to submit yourself fully is a very futile idea. Also if you meant after judgement day, then that means a time when either you will be in heaven for submitting ureself fully to Allah WHILST you were on this world or in hell for not submitting ureself fully to allah whilst you were on this earth and there can be no argument about that. We will not need to pray or anything in heaven so if you mean your comment in that way then im afraid it doesnt make sense.

How is that so? There is only 1 spiritual path and that is in the Quaran.

There is only one path! 'Sirrat al Musthaqueem'!! THE right path and no other that will ever lead you to heaven except islam!! If you mean the diffent sects of Islam (sunni, shi'a etc.) then being a christian and a muslim isnt a sect at all 'under the umbrella of ISLAM'.

There is only one path. There is only one way. There are the commonly known '5 pillars of Islam'. They are for a reason. There is also no way how being a christian and a muslim is in any way shape or form possible. There in the quar'an is states that Jesus did not die on the cross. It sates Jesus NEVER is/was/ever will be the son of God.

That, Anne-Marie, is Islam.

AH
Zainab

Salam Ali Koam Salam Sister

Your right there are five pillars of Islam and then again maybe there are 10 Trillion and counting.

For you see every (religion) Spiritual Path to choose from has these same pillars (The people who call them selves by Islam are 10 Billion living and 10 trillion and counting.

Islam discribes a way of life that includes 5 main pillars like:

1. prayer
2. Zakat
3. Haj
4. ?
5.?

Someone mentioned them but I forget, I have so much on my mind.

I think there is a pillar called a living prayer where a person guides another to counseling or if in trouble takes counseling.

I think being a good person with good manners is a pillar

I think have good communication skills is a pillar of Islam

There are more but I will discuss them later.

Salam Sister

I am happy to answer your questions and also learn from you.

Deathpasser

05-03-2005, 06:53

amlhabibi2000

05-03-2005, 07:38

There is 5 pillars of Islam:

1-prayer
2-Zakat
3-Hajj
4-Fasting (during Ramadhan)
5-Shahada

I'll elaborate on Shahada, one you forgot:

Shahada(Arabic) La-illaha-illAllahu-Muhammadu-Rasoolullah

Shahada(English Translation) There is no God but Allah(swt) and Muhemmed(saw) is the messenger of Allah(swt).

Secondly, You seem to be keen on mixing all world religons into a new one. When you do not follow the recipe while cooking food, it will taste bad. In the same way you are not following the recipe and inclding things that will make Submission no longer sanctified. And someone who went by Bahai already beat you to the idea!

Third, if you practice all religons then you are also a Yazidi, who worship Shaitan and according to their own book there is no God/ no Allah(swt)! And you are also a Mormon, even though Islam already taught no prophet would come after Muhemmed(saw). If this is true then you are rejecting a verse from Allah(swt), and hence are not Muslim.

Salam

In truth it is not a new religion but a way of life discribe by the word Islam and under the umbrella of Islam ineed Allah has set many paths all of which include the 5 pillars of Islam except the shadah they/we make is to Allah and we accept his word and guide is ever flowing from him. That is why he said Mohammed PBUH was the seal of the Prophets because it refered to a coming day when it would accepted that the voice of Allah speaks through everyone of us and therefore more efforts in establishing excellent education teams and recognizing the station of Messiah in each of us is crutial so no one can turn to the other and say this one is unworthy of being fed when he is hungry or being heard when he is scared. No Mohammad was the seal on a docuement revealing a Messiah in the Multitude, that every person need and must speak up for themselves and Allah.

There is hope.

I do not have to create another reilion it exists without my guidance or effort however I hope to be a part of it. Inshallah.

The first shadah one taskes is at the creation of your soul before Allah sends it to the body, there you promise Allah to do you best

Lulua

05-03-2005, 07:54

Assalaamu alaikum.

As regards the pillars, I have found it quite interesting that I have noticed always when listening to ppl speaking on the topic, or reading the written word, they (the pillars) are always mentioned in one specific order. I think that this is not an accident.

In fact, one scholar pointed out to me once that the specific order of the mention of the pillars is in fact indicative of their true importance to the faith in general.

I will list them, giving a small description or explanation with each one, in their order as our beloved prophet(SAAW) was always quoted to mention them, to point out their importance each one in relation to the other.:

1. Shahadah.
This is the basic declaration and realization of the most basic tenant of the faith: that Allah is one: no deity other than Him, and that Mohammed(SAAW) is his messenger (i.e. the last of the messengers). Without this basic and beginning step of faith and reliazation, one is not a muslim. It is this statement, and the belief and physical enactment upon this statement, which is the base of the pyramid for a muslim to even BE a muslim.

2. Prayer.
No coincidence that prayer is the next in line, for it is the next important as regards it's level in comparison to the shahadah itself. A muslim is required to pray at least five times daily, every day. Only certain circumstances are excused from the prayer (i.e. menstruating women, etc.), and even the ill and traveling are expected to pray. The prophet(SAAW) has been recorded as equating a person who neglects the prayer equal to a kafir...perhaps even worse (since a muslim has been endowed with the message of the truth and the directives of how to live as Allah wishes: performing the prayer). One of the many ahadith on this topic mention that the main difference between the believers and non-believers is the prayer. SubhanAllah. Glory be to Him!!!

3. Fasting.
Muslims have been commanded to fast one whole month out of the year. There are options for other superrogatory fasts, of course. But the mandate is the one prescribed month (i.e. Ramadhan).

4. Zakat.
All muslims who are eligible to pay the zakat (required to pay out of their earnings and savings) to the poor people must do so every year as per their eligibility.

5. Haj.
The grand pilgrimage to Makkah at the time of the haj. It is required upon every muslim once in a lifetime, and even then only according to the requirements endowed upon him/her. If the muslim meets those requirements, then this duty is implied upon him/her. And if they do not meet those requirements, then this duty has been relieved from him/her.

-------------

Please note also the amount or frequency each of the above mentioned pillars are performed or observed, in regards or association with their order that they appear in the list:

The shahadah is repeated many times throughout the day. It is something that a person may repeat upon waking up as well as going to sleep. And it is something that a person may repeat at the time of facing any danger or surprising situation (such as in a car accident, etc.). It is something that one says when reciting the call for prayer (done five times daily), as well as at certain prescribed times and instances throughout the prayer itself. This declaration of faith is repeated many times throughout everyday of the life of the muslim, many more than merely five times as is the prayer itself.

The prayer is performed five times daily throughout the life of the muslim. Many muslims will and do pray more than merely five time. But it is a daily occurance, without end.

The fast is performed for one whole month of the year (30 days). Many muslims fast more than that throughout the year. But for every muslim, the basic requirement is the observance of these particular 30 days (Ramadhan).

The zakat is observed or performed once a year. But it is only a momentary action, taking up a period of less than one whole day in most instances. Depending upon the finances of a person, and his/her ability to locate and distribute to those deserving of the zakat, it may spread out over a period. But it is not such a consistent act such as is the fast. Nor is it incumbent necessarily on every single muslim, as is the fast. Only those who are financially eligible to pay the zakat are to pay it. And it is to be paid to those deserving and needy of it.

The haj is something to be observed and performed once in a lifetime. If one has the opportunity and ability and wish to perform it more than that, this is acceptable. But the basic requirement is only once in a lifetime. And even then, according to certain stipulations. That one have the funds to realize the trip for the haj, and that one is physically able to do so. And for women, the restrictions are even more: that she have a mahram to travel with her in accompiniment. If any of those restrictions are not met, then the responsibility and duty of the haj has been released from the individual, until such time that the restrictions are met.

------------

And Allah knows best.

Lulua.

amlhabibi2000

07-03-2005, 01:20

5. Haj.
The grand pilgrimage to Makkah at the time of the haj. It is required upon every muslim once in a lifetime, and even then only according to the requirements endowed upon him/her. If the muslim meets those requirements, then this duty is implied upon him/her. And if they do not meet those requirements, then this duty has been relieved from him/her.

Haj can also be made to ones family, a pilgrimage to see what needs work and who needs help. Haj can also be made to ones friends again to see who needs help and guidance, so it is welcomed also Haj to the community to see where our assistance is needed and who can help, these kinds of Haj are key and need be preformed as often as needed to ensure no one is being violent or ignorant of information that can assist them in coping with the stresses of life, ie sexual health info to deal with that kind of problem so ones sexual appeitie can be managed in a good way and ones temper be held in check so one does not act on some of the symptoms of the stages and levels of sexual frustraTION LIKE FEELINGS OF BEING ATTRACTED TO THE SAME SEX, OR CHILDREN, THE URGE TO EXPLOIT OR USE CHILD SEX SLAVES.

tHESE KINDS OF hAJ ARE KEY AND ESSENTIAL THEN IF ONE HAS DONE SOME OF THIS AND HAS MONEY LEFT TO GO TO mECCA OR ANY OTHER HOLY PLACE IN THE WORLD THEN THIS HAS A DOUBLE REWARD FOR THEY HAVE DONE SOME THINGS TO SOLVE ISSUES AT HOME BEFORE THEY SEEK THEIR OWN PLEASURE.

sORRY FOR THE CAPS USE,

Deathpasser

07-03-2005, 06:04

Haj can also be made to ones friends again to see who needs help and guidance

That isn't hajj, when you make a migration for the cause of Allah(swt), it is called hijra. You can't do hijra and then say on judgement day that you already did hajj.In fact, if the reason of doing this 'hijrah' is as a false excuse for hajj, then it isn't even hijrah. Allah(swt) knows best.

tHESE KINDS OF hAJ ARE KEY AND ESSENTIAL THEN IF ONE HAS DONE SOME OF THIS AND HAS MONEY LEFT TO GO TO mECCA OR ANY OTHER HOLY PLACE IN THE WORLD THEN THIS HAS A DOUBLE REWARD FOR THEY HAVE DONE SOME THINGS TO SOLVE ISSUES AT HOME BEFORE THEY SEEK THEIR OWN PLEASURE.

No, you are using hijrah as an excuse for dieing before doing hajj. Hajj isn't for ones own pleasure, although it brings pleasure to those who do it-it is for the sake of Allah(swt). Can you provide your source that purposefully doing migration to avoid hajj gives you double reward?

Lulua

07-03-2005, 08:33

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

Anne...with all due respect, you are confusing and misinterpreting the meaning of some arabic terms.

I will try to clarify for you:

'haj': This means strictly the yearly pilgrimage to Makkah. It is a duty upon each and every muslim to perform once in his/her lifetime, according to the requirements of it. If one meets those requirements (i.e. ability physically and financially), then he/she must attend to this duty once in his/her life.

'hijrah': this is emigration from one land to another for the sake of Allah. The basic hijrah of the muslims occured in the time of our beloved prophet's(SAAW) life, when they migrated to Madinah, in escape from the torture and torment inflicted upon them by the regional tribes and inhabitants of Makkah. They (the muslims) later returned to Makkah, conquering it for Islam, and hence the prophet(SAAW) declared that there is no more hijrah. No more command of need of migration for the whole of time. In other words, the whole world has now (at the time of the prophet's statement) been declared regional for Islam and muslims to live anywhere.

'jihad': basically, and literally, it means struggle for the sake of Allah. It can be in the physical sense, as on the battlefield. Or it can be in a more metamorphical sense, such as the jihad upon one's own self, or the self of others. There is the 'jihad of the pen'...where a person may make his/her own force of jihad the written word, in attempt to help educate others as to the right path, and encourage them on towards that way. Or there is the jihad of one's own self...to fight off the temptations of taking the easy way out of things. Such as forcing one's self to get up for the fajr prayer in the early dawn hours when all others are comfortably sleeping in their warm beds. Or perhaps the jihad in forcing one's self not to eat or drink in the daylight hours during the time of fast. And the list can and does go on and on for this type of jihad.

------------

It is apparent, dear Anne, that you have confused some of the terms. And it is also apparent that what you are speaking about in your last message here was in fact 'jihad', and not 'haj'.

There is no 'other' haj than that which is mentioned and described as the prophet(SAAW) himself performed the haj, and that is traveling to Makkah at a certain time of the year, and once there, then performing the rites and rituals of the haj as he(SAAW) has so rightly demonstrated and explained to us.

I hope that this has become more clear to you now.

Lulua.

amlhabibi2000

07-03-2005, 09:51

Dear Lulua

Thank you for those references.

For me my Haj and the most important one is the one that I make to myself, my friends and my family and my community, a sacred journey to healing and resurrection for all for if I journey to the Kabah and leave behind one friend being beaten or abused and turn my face away from their suffering and do nothing then how can I go to the Kabah and circle round it knowing I have left Dawah undone?

How can I face myself spending the money needed for such a journey when I know my brother is left in hunger or without clothes or shoes?

How can I go there knowing I left someone on the street in the cold without shelter and seek my own comfort even though in making haj there is sacrifice and some discomfort.

If I have left my community and left no means for the poor to have food and shelter how may I journey to this sacride place when I have not respected Allah in the most sacred place the World, my heart and the heart of others.

I know Haj is an amazing experience and kindles brotherhood, however it seems futile to make Haj if the things I mentioned are not addressed before you make your journey there.

Also ever where is a place where Allah may be praised and glorified and though some places may be speacial and visited more often all the world is a speacial place and all the people are waiting for the pilgrims to arrive to bring them word and comfort or at least set in place in their communitities safe places to share their stories and recieve excellent counseling and tools like knowledge about how to cope with the stages and levels of sexual frustration and depressions and any resulting anger, stress, confusion and especially stop any further acts of injustice and violence.

I suggest that the Ummah make a emmense pilgrimage to those areas that still force young girls and women to have the sexual organs removed by force and if 1 million Muslims showed up and said this is wrong they would get the hint if you get my drift.

As a woman needs all her derlicate parts for pleasing her husband and it is no sin to have these as Allah gave them to her for the purpose as I said to please her husband and for her pleasure and there is no sin in this.

Sister how long can the world of Islam sit back and hear that young girls and women are being tortured and experience being cut by ignorant people among them without the whole of Islam rising up to their defense and bringing these precious lams salvation and the needed medical attention to address the carnage of what has happened to them.

So sister this year rather than go to the Kabah for Haj why not go to the areas where this practice is done and as I said if 6 million people showed up and shouted female curcumcizion is against Allah and is forbidden then maybe they might listen.

So you see sister there is a Need for the kind of Haj I am talking about and this is Haj also.

For me making the Haj I mentioned is the most important to me at the moment and though you believe I am confused in the terms I am saying this is my Haj.

I may make the greater Haj at some point but what is greater than bring solice to a suffering world then I may make Haj to Makah with a clean and peaceful heart.

Tayeb

07-03-2005, 10:58

Dear Anne-Marie:

Having been back from Hajj very recently - by the Grace of Allah - with renewed spirit, and reading what you say, I think with due to respect to your views that you are misinterpretating Islamic teachings without enough knowledge. Your interpretations with due respect are out of ignorance of Islamic teachings.

Hajj is one of pillars of Islam the 5th and last one, and obligatory on whoever has the health and financial conditions to do it. Actually the 4th pillar Zakat is also compulsory on whoever has the conditions to pay it, i.e. financial. So really you don't visit your family, say as Hajj, as the term means in Islamic context to perform certain rites that mimic exactly what prophet Muhammad taught us.

The actual Hajj starts at encampment of Mina, passing a night at Muzadalifah, passing an afternnon at Arafat, stoning the Shaytan (devil) at Jamarat, Kurbani, sacrificing an animal, performing doing Tawaf around Kaabah, and Sa'i i.e. walking and running between Safah and Marwah. All these localities are at Makkah, actual Saudi Arabia.

Ma'a-salaama,

Lulua

07-03-2005, 12:35

amlhabibi2000

07-03-2005, 12:49

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

Anne...for a person who claims to be fighting the war of ignorance and arrogance, I find it amazing that you are so negligent to our own attempts here to enlighten you as to the true teachings of Islam.

As I mentioned before, the correct interpretations and translations of those terms.

And br. Tayeb has kindly added his own mention as to the Islamic teachings as well as his own recent experience at the haj.

It is not for us to attempt to change the meaning of that word haj into another meaning. The haj means only one thing, and that means to leave all of the worldly dealings of this world, including our own loved ones and our work and all else that we may love and enjoy (including also that which perhaps we do not enjoy, yet need to do from day to day)...to answer the call of Allah and perform this duty upon us. Once in a life.

This is what the haj is.

There simply IS no other haj.

Now, as for dawa (i.e. spreading the word of the message of the truth-i.e. Islam), that is a daily task we must all take up. Including while we are on the journey and task of the haj.

But there is no possibility of 'making a haj' for the sake of anything else, or in any other manner than which has already been described.

I do not question nor deny that there are many social disorders which need to be addressed by us all, including that which you have mentioned. But addressing these social maladies cannot be a replacement for the haj.

They are entirely two separate entities.

I hope that this becomes to be clear to you.

Since you are so constantly commenting on your desire for enlightening and educating the world, I imagine and hope that you will begin with yourself, by widening your own horizons as regards the true meanings of such Islamic ideals and factions.

Lulua.

Respectfully Sisters and brothers I am not trying to change the meaning of Haj.

I am saying this is how I perform my Haj.

This is to me my most important Haj.

After I have done all I can do then I can travel the world and visit all the glorious places where mention of Allah may be made and his praises glorified includin Makkkah.

So no I have understood what Haj means , this is my Haj you are welcome to make of it what you will, however ponder it a little before disgarding it as be useless information. Lives are waiting for salvation and ressurrection and we all can do our part hence my Haj and the small difference I may make in doing this method of Haj and the impact is we all did some of this as well.

Inshallah manyu a tear is being shed even as I write and these can only be turned into laughter and praise for Allah by going out into the world and making a difference in what ever small capacity we can for we are the tide that must reach the shores of the suffering and the tools like knowledge must reach the waiting minds left in ignorance so salvation and ressurrection may happen.

I am but so insignificant and yet I know my voice counts and so do all the voices in this heavens realms. For heaven is what Allah had intended when he created this glorious Earth and all the creatures that live and dwell upon it.

That the time might come when all the inhabitiants live and dwell in peace and it is possible but it takes work and education, counseling, consultation, prayer and living prayers like guiding those in need to counseling.

Massahallah may it be soon.

Tayeb

07-03-2005, 14:02

amlhabibi2000

07-03-2005, 16:32

Dear Anne-Marie:

Instead of Hajj which has a specific meaning why don't you use the word pilgrimage? In fact pilgrimage in English means visit to a holy place and in this view of your you consider your family a holy place. Fine enough. What we contend is the use of Islamic terms in a way that they don't reflect at all what you say, it's the usage of Islamic terms in a free manner. You could next say the Bible is your Qur'an? Or the water you drink is the Zamzam? etc.

Qur'an is the Book that was revealed to the Prophet and cannot be used freely and lightly at least for us Muslims. We also feel deeply that you are misusing the term Hajj. I'd ask you, do you become Hajji for visiting your family.

Don't you see the difference, visiting your family is your duty and to receive their visit is same. Would you receive a visit of Makkah? You don't visit your family once a lifetime, you visit as often as you can, unlike Hajj that's obligatory only on Muslims and once a lifetime, for those Muslims who have conditions to do it. You don't need to be a Muslim to visit your family, nor does your family need to be Muslim to visit you. Don't you see you are wrong in misusing the word?

Ma'a-salaama,

Tayeb I hear your point however what is the point of going to Makkah and visitning the Kabbah if you have left your home in disarray with issues of incest, family violence, treating your spouse or children badly and violently?

Yes Tayeb I am most certainly using the word Haj in this indeavor and I do not apologize for using it. And not only do I call all Mankind to an education and counseling and consultation jihad, with prayer and living prayer like guiding someone acting out violently to trained counselors to learn self control techniques and this journey I am definititely calling Haj for Allah exists in part in us and his glorious creastion of us means we need to make this Haj and we must arise as a people and perform this Haj until there is no one left suffering in silence then there will be indeed heaven on earth and the first kabbah is our Spirit.

So if one spirit (person) is suffering then journeying to the Kabbah in Mecca and leaving them to suffer makes our Haj worthless for we have not performed it completely in my view.

I mean no disrespect just expressing my view and my understanding of Islam, one may like what I have said one may not.

The only thing I ask is that it is considered and as I said if one in your family is suffering from family violence see the whole family gets counseling before you make Haj for this is part of Haj in my eyes.

I will also say every spot on the Earth and in the Universe is a place to know and love Allah and glorify him.

Let everyone have every reason to fully glorify and praise him no matter where they are and recognize his existance or presence in all of us.

Let no person deem another unworthy of knowing and loving Allah in themselves or others by being left in situations of violence, poverty or ignorance.

Tayeb I am making Haj as I speak and have been most of my life and I may not finish Haj until the day I die then I begin a new kind of Haj.

May Allah give you patience with me and the expression of my Faith and beliefs in Islam as I know them to be.

May Allah give me patience and the tools to share this more widely so the truths and proofs may be considered by all and healing may go out to the Multitude.

We are Messengers of Allah and we must be trained and educated well to be prepared for this station and that we may respect that this station is one which takes time and patience as there has been much ignorance and a lack of excellent education and those who due to noit understanding the importance of this station and that this station of Messenger is within each of us. Some of us are better at being the Messenger of Allah than others but in everyone there is a message even if it is a message hey I need guidance.

We are all Leaders and Learners our whole lives in this process and none are exexempt.

I realize I have raised some important questions and in due time I will anser them as best I can.

Again may Allah continue to give you patience with me and my expressing My beliefs and understanding of Islam as I know it to be.

Lulua

07-03-2005, 18:39

Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.

Greetings and good day to all.

Anne...know that u wrote ur last message more or less in direct to Br. Tayeb. But just thought to add my insight to this as well, if I may.

First of all...sorry to burst your bubble...but in fact, you are not making any sort of haj at all when you speak here or elsewhere. That is NOT...repeat...NOT...what the haj is.

We all know that there are many maladies of society all around us everywhere. There is no way on earth that we can possibly cure them all.

Not to say that we shouldn't try...of course, we should always try our best, and with our consistent prayers for Allah's help in it, to help those who are in need of our help.

But there always comes a time when we ourselves must realize that we as humans can only do just so much.

There was a time in our beloved prophet's(SAAW) life when he himself realized that he and his companions could no longer stand the force of those against them, and so they resorted to emigrating from their homeland for the security of a more welcoming land, so that they could build up their strength both physically as well as spiritually. All of this under the Divine directive of Allah, of course. And, when the time was ripe, they returned to their homeland once again, to conquer it and to make Islam reign in the land. SubhanAllah.

There are other incidents when the prophet(SAAW) himself realized that the human presence at the time could do no more, and so a retreat was necessary (whether in the act of war or otherwise).

And, please DO bear in mind...that prophet Mohammed(SAAW) was the best of all of mankind. In all manners.

Anne...we are not messengers nor prophets. This ideal or concept is totally and completely against all teachings of Islam.

And so is your understanding (rather, misunderstanding) that you persist to keep of the term 'haj'.

The point of going for the haj is basically in obeying the command of Allah, and answering His call. It is merely one aspect in which the muslim answers the call of Allah. But it is truly a very basic and underlying statement of Islam as a whole, emphasizing the brotherhood of mankind...in that all present have discarded (at least for the time being) all that is precious and important to them of this world. Including their own loved ones. They put their minds and hearts and souls strictly for the worship and glorification of Allah, in the place which He has commanded, and at the time in which He has commanded.

A person may dedicate his/her whole life to taking care of the sick, attempting to educate the ignorant, helping those in need of all sorts of needs...yet if they do not perform the haj (pilgrimage to Makkah) once in their life, and they had met the requirements of it (i.e. they were physically and financially able to do so)...and they die without ever having performed this important duty, then they die in debt to Allah of this duty.

Now, if you are truly inclined and wanting to learn the truth about Islam and the teachings of Islam, then you will take to heart the words which we have written here for you.

I believe that it cannot be explained in simpler terms.

And if you must continue to persist in your distorted misinterpretation of this pillar of Islam, then I personally will understand you to be unwilling to even try to learn or understand.

And so, my dear friend...if I find that your response is merely a recurrance of the responses that you have written so far, then I will remove myself from this discussion and any further similar discussions of this nature, because it will then be evident that you are unwilling to try to learn the truth.

I am sorry, but I must be frank about this. For we have been given two things in this life, which are not replacable, and of which we are to be held responsible for.

And those two things are time and health. And frankly, this merry-go=round debate is becoming a waste of time. And I fear Allah and the Judgement Day, and I do not want to be held accountable for wasting my time with those not willing to learn.

I will continue to speak and write the truth as it is written in the Quran and demonstrated by the example of our beloved prophet(SAAW). But I will not waste my time with those who are unwilling to learn when the truth is sent forth.

I hope that you will not fit into this above-mentioned category, AnneMarie.

Lulua.

Zainab

07-03-2005, 19:56

AA

Ameen sister lulua :)

Anne-MArie you say you wish to learn.... right? So let me teach you :p...

Starter of the lesson

Anne, when you say haj it means Pilgrimage to the Ka'ba okay?

So when you say wrong things like

Tayeb I am making Haj as I speak and have been most of my life and I may not finish Haj until the day I die then I begin a new kind of Haj.

It means:

Tayeb I am making The Pilgrimage to the Ka'ba as I speak and have been for most of my life and I may not finish The Pilgrimage to the Ka'ba until the day I die then I begin a new kind of Pilgrimage to the Ka'ba .

Open qustion:

Q) Now does that make sense?
A) No!!

Lesson To be learnt:

How can you make the pilgrimage to mecca as you speak? HAJ season is over (unless you think it is actually HAJ season too therefore it would be my role to teach you also that it isnt!).
Now i know that it is good to be enthusiactic but , Anne-Marie, HAJ doesnt last that long!
Its also actually Haraam to try and make a new kind of HAJ so dont bother.

Conclusion

HAJ means pilgrimage to mecca.
You might aswell say 'im going to the post office' when you mean you want to help your family by doing something completely different.

I hoped that Helped Anne-Marie. I put it very simply so you can understand as you say you want to learn but absolutley refuse to do so. Are you sure you want to learn or do you want to make us learn? Our God has made us learn with his Quaran and i hope inshallah that He will do so you aswell.

Note: You do have to do HAJ. All of the suffering in the world can never be wiped out. Thats basically like writing in your organiser "Got to do HAJ. Date = 8th Zul-Hija of erm.. let me see.. NEVER!!!!"
Why would God have told us to do it if he actualy doesnt want us to? This is distorted and you should really stop this, Anne. Shaytaan is causing harm to you and trying to use you to harm others so do us a favour will you? DONT LET HIM!

AH
Zainab.

lubna

07-03-2005, 20:07

WELL SAID!!
ZAINAB DEAR!!

you just made shytaan run away with his tail between his legs... :p :p :p

amlhabibi2000

07-03-2005, 22:59

WELL SAID!!
ZAINAB DEAR!!

you just made shytaan run away with his tail between his legs... :p :p :p

I am by far not shatan nor am I even close.

I am patient and you will understand I have my beliefs and what I understand Islam to be and I am still learning some of the traditional thoughts.

However Islam is evolving like everything else in our world.

Salam

Zainab

08-03-2005, 18:11

AA

Lol thank you dear sis Lubna :p

Anne Marie, ISLAM CANNOT EVOLVE! If there is ONE thing that will always stay the same, no-matter if the world is ending; no-matter if its judgement day; no-matter whether it's in the past; future or present; and that thing is ISLAM!

If you try and change Islam like many priests and other people are trying to do (in christianity OR any other religion) then that is not islam anymore and It will never be!

I dont believe Sister Lubna sever said you were the shaytaan.

AH
Zainab

Kurt Kawohl

09-03-2005, 00:43

However Islam is evolving like everything else in our world.

Salam

Agreed...unless evolvement continues, stagnation sets in.

The spirit, when the mind is in mental stasis, can at times connect with the Supreme Spirit, as evidenced by God’s messengers. (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Ahmad, Bahá’u’lláh, etc.) The mind's ability to interpret this connection and messages is often deficient, hence we have the creation of various religions.

God is spiritual, hence all interactions with man is via man's spirit. Man can not physically hear God's words therefore any claims of having heard God's words are incorrect. God does not contradict himself, it is man's claims of having heard God's instructions physically that is contradictory.

Please peruse the Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam. http://www.alislam.org/books/philosophy/index.html
In The Philosophy of the Oaths of the Holy Qur’an paragraph 7 & 8 state:

As six hundred years had passed after the time of Jesus, and no recipient of revelation had appeared during the interval. The whole world had been corrupted. The history of every country shows that before the advent of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, falsehood had become current throughout the world. Why did this happen? This happened because divine revelation had been held back for a long time and the kingdom of heaven had fallen into the hands of human reason alone. No one is unaware of the corruption in which the people were involved by following defective reason. Thus when the rain of revelation did not descend for a period, the water of reason dried up.

So in these oaths God Almighty draws attention to this firm and eternal law of nature and calls for reflection upon it that all the vegetation of the earth depends upon the water of heaven. Thus, for the hidden law that governs divine revelation the obvious law of nature is a witness. Then try to derive benefit from the testimony of this witness and do not make reason alone your guide, for it is not a water that can continue without heavenly water. As it is a characteristic of heavenly water that it pulls up the water of all the wells, whether it falls directly into a well or not, in the same way, when a recipient of divine revelation appears in the world then, whether a wise person follows him or not, reason is illumined and clarified to a degree not witnessed before. People begin to search for the truth and their faculty of reflection is stirred up from the unseen. Thus, all this upsurge of reason and of the heart is initiated by the blessed advent of the recipient of divine revelation and the waters of the earth are pulled up by it. So, when you find that everyone has started a search for religion and an upsurge has stirred earthly waters, then rise up and be warned and know for certain that heavy rain has fallen from heaven and that the water of divine revelation has fallen upon a human heart.

Kurt kawohl

Deathpasser

09-03-2005, 01:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by amlhabibi2000
However Islam is evolving like everything else in our world.

Salam

Agreed...unless evolvement continues, stagnation sets in.

It seems you both lack the understanding of two very simple english terms, both of which I will define:

evolution
perfect

Forbidden unto you ( for food ) are carrion and blood and swine flesh , and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah , and the strangled , and the dead through beating , and the dead through falling from a height , and that which hath been killed by ( the goring of ) horns , and the devoured of wild beasts , saving that which ye make lawful ( by the death stroke ) , and that which hath been immolated unto idols . And ( forbidden is it ) that ye swear by the divining arrows . This is an abomination . This day are those who disbelieve in despair of ( ever harming ) your religion ; so fear them not , fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you , and have chosen for you as religion AL- ISLAM . Whoso is forced by hunger , not by will , to sin : ( for him ) lo! Allah is Forgiving , Merciful .

6.115 . perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice . There is naught that can change His words . He is the Hearer , the Knower .

11.1 . Alif . Lam . Ra . ( This is ) a Scripture the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded . ( It cometh ) from One Wise , Informed ,

Evolution:
1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

Perfect:
# Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
# Being without defect or blemish
Complete; thorough; utter

Now, how can something perfect develop into a better form. That's irrational to say the least.

...Bahá’u’lláh...

1) Bahaullah was a kafir, not a prophet.

2) You yourself mentioned only the names of alleged prophets as an example of "connecting with the holy spirit". And it's not necessarily true, if by connect you mean communicate. Gibrael(as) also in one ahahdeeth was seen by the sahaba--I can not remember the exact hadeeth.

Please peruse the Philosophy of the Teachings of Islam.../link to website/...

Oh great, a Mirzai.

Also, you are referring to an outside non-Muslim, in this case apostate, referance. "Oaths of the Holy Quran paragraph 7 and 8"

Is this the book which Ghulam Sahib published useing the stolen money of other people? Allow me to quote this "great" man who you want others to learn about Islam from:

"My enemies are dirty swine and their women [wives, daughters, sisters] are more wretched than bitches."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 14, P. 53; Najmul Huda, P. 10, 53)

"There is nothing more foul than a pig in the world. But the ulema who oppose me are more foul than pigs."
(Anjam-i-Atham, P. 21)

"If Abdullah Athum is saved from death (as per Mirza's prophecy) and if all the world say the Christian was correct, then the bastard will not follow the right path."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 9, P. 32)

"Abdul Haq is not content with our victories. He is itching to become a bastard."
(Anwar-ul-Islam, P. 30)

Ironic part:

"I have never abused anyone."
(Moahiburahman, P. 18)

"He is worst who is abusive, his heart is as filthy as Latrine."
(Sar-e-Sumain, P. 74)

"Abuses and rebukes are not the acts of a believer and a believer can not be a curser."
(Azalat-ul-Auham, P. 66)

Exposeing the Mirzai Kufar:

irshad.org

http://alhafeez.org/rashid/

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/

http://webpages.marshall.edu/~laher1/qadiani.html

Kurt Kawohl

09-03-2005, 01:41

“Living your life to the fullest”, IMHO means living a moral, decent life that experiences the wonders of the universe. This allows the spirit to expand its knowledge so that it can contribute toward the intellectual expansion of the God which is pure energy, the progressive, collective pure spiritual intellect, the “Union of Spirits of the Spiritual Realm”.

Faith is about cultivating unity. Agreements and similarities should be highlighted and promoted, and differences should be seen for what they really are, small, insignificant, easily resolved.

Many philosophers and I highly respect and agree with much of the teachings of Islam.

“The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity”.

Please see my spiritual experiences at http://transcendentalists.org

Namaste,
Kurt

Zainab

09-03-2005, 17:08

Asalaamualaykum all brothers and sisters in Islam

I Agree with deathpasser.

Islam is perfect so you CANNOT perfect it more!

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion.

The religion of the future is the religion of the present and the religion of the present is the religion of the past and the past prophets which is ISLAM!!!!!

It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology.

Why should it?

Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity

Islam is a meaningful unity and people who try and evolve it arent in Islam.

Simple.

Wasalaams brothers and sisters in Islam
Zainab

Kurt Kawohl

09-03-2005, 19:51

Islam is perfect so you CANNOT perfect it more!

So say all religions...and the divisions & stupidity continues.

Only Allah is perfect...peoples interpretations of their spiritual interactions are by their conditioned fallible minds...hence you have various religions.

Tayeb

09-03-2005, 20:26

Assalamu-alaikum and gretings to all:

This discussion is getting nowhere and therefore I am going to lock it. If any of the intervening parties feels prejudiced with this please contact me by PM and let me know what you want to say.

It started with Anne-Marie saying something that is totally wrong, as you cannot believe in One God, as Muslims do, and yet believe that a man, Jesus, was god. That's what entails to be Christian. One cannot be Muslim and Chrstian at the same time.

I and others tried to explain that Jesus is a prophet of Islam and he was also a Muslim. Islam is the religion of previous prophets before Muhammad, peace be upon him,

It seems obvious that Anne-Marie is proposing a new religion based on ideas of peace, education etc. However these propositions are vague because they don't deal with poverty, rape, etc. i.e. they can't be solved with simple formulae like of education, counselling etc. It can be way, but other type of reforms are needed like economical measures to help the poor not to remain poor for ever, "teach him to catch fish...". Who says that educated men and women can't be depraved or evil? So laws that are severe in punishment are required so that they cannot do their evil deeds. These all matters are addressed by Islam, a complete way of life, the religion that God (Allah) has given to all mankind.

Ma'a-salaama,