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lubna
04-07-2007, 23:46
s3

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17963.htm

Why do we hate them?

By Gilad Atzmon

07/04/07 "ICH" -- --- When I came over to Britain some thirteen years ago, I found a very tolerant place. I was amazed to see so many people of so many colours, not just living together in peace, but living in full harmony. At Essex University, the institute where I was doing my postgraduate studies, everyone was enthusiastic about post-colonialism. The Brits, so it seemed to me at the time, were repenting over their embarrassing colonial past. I was mildly impressed but not totally overwhelmed. At the end of the day, it isn’t that difficult to denounce your grandfather’s crimes.

I was amazed to see Turks and Cypriots running grocery shops side by side in Green Lane. My first roommate was a Palestinian M.A. student from Beit Sahour, it all felt natural. It didn’t take long before I fell in love with the town and decided to make it into my permanent home.

At the time, Britain was very different from the place I came from. In my homeland the human landscape was officially reduced into two types. In a manner of crude binary opposition there was always a clear division between the ‘Good’ and the ‘Bad’, the ‘us’ and the ‘them’, the ‘West’ and the ‘East’ or just the ‘Jews’ and the ‘Arabs’. In the place I came from, peace couldn’t even be seen on the horizon. But in the London of the 1990s, there was no such dichotomy. Painfully enough, this has changed. On a daily basis our media outlets repeat the idiotic question: “Why do they hate us so much?” By now it is rather clear, the binary opposition between ‘us’ and ‘them’ has made it into an integral part of the British discourse as well.

When I moved over in the early 1990s, British politics was very boring. John Major was in power. But then, not before long, a young, dynamic, visionary politician removed him from office. This politician is a man who has managed in just ten years to demolish one of the most harmonious societies in the West. Tony Blair, the great new Labour promise, had been running the country for a decade; he managed to drag this country into every possible conflict, and to escalate minor conflict to crisis levels. He has managed to lie repeatedly to his people, his parliament and his cabinet, he has launched an illegal war that cost over 700,000 innocent civilian lives. He obviously failed to see the impact those wars may have on his multi-ethnic society at home.

Blair has just left the PM office, thank God for that, however, this country is now on the brink of moral collapse. Its civil rights system is under severe threat. Politicians of all parties are calling for tougher detention laws. The possibility of mass deportation of new immigrants doesn’t look like a remote nightmare. Yet, most worrying is the role of the ‘free’ media in this country. The leading papers and TV are succumbing quite willingly to the official Government line of thinking. It’s something that reminds me too much of the recruited media in my doomed homeland, the place I left thirteen years ago.

I find myself wondering, how dare the media ask ‘why do they hate us?’ Don’t they know the answer? Don’t we know the answer? Weren’t we the ones who demolished Iraq? Wasn’t it our PM, Tony Blair, who gave a green light to the Israelis to flatten Lebanon? Wasn’t it Tony Blair’s government who dismissed the democratically elected Hamas in Palestine? Wasn’t it Blair who allowed the Israelis to starve Gaza?

For those who still fail to realise, to kill is rather simple, to turn towns into piles of rubble isn’t that complicated either. Yet, to raise a child may take a few years, to build a city takes hundreds of years and to establish harmony between human beings takes thousand of years. We should stop lying to others and to ourselves. We know perfectly well why they hate us, they have some good reasons, as things stand momentarily, we are the ones who are killing them en mass. It is us who demolish their towns and kill their kids.

Thus, rather than raising the pathetic question, ‘why do they hate us?’ we’d better evade our self-righteous mode, and ask ourselves, ‘why do we hate them so much?’ or even, ‘why do we hate so much?’ in general.

To bring peace to London, Glasgow, Britain and the West is to look in the mirror, to look into our severe and devastating wrongdoings, to repair the damage made by Blair, Bush and company, to revise the dream of ecumenical Western society. It is possible. It is within our capacity. We have been just there not that long ago. I remember it very well, it was only thirteen years ago, I felt it when I landed in Britain.
Gilad Atzmon was born in Israel in 1963 and had his musical training at the Rubin Academy of Music, Jerusalem (Composition and Jazz) A multi-instrumentalist he plays Soprano, Alto, Tenor and Baritone Saxes, Clarinet, Sol, Zurna and Flutes. Also a prolific and often controversial writer, Atzmon's essays are widely published his novel 'Guide to the perplexed' and 'My One And Only Love' have been translated into 24 languages all together. Visit his website http://www.gilad.co.uk/

Netcurtains3
05-07-2007, 07:02
We don't hate muslims, people DISLIKE things that threaten
their way of life.....

I'll list a few things what a typical Anglo-Saxon catholic man
likes and if they are not compatible with Islam it will make
us dislike the muslim religion:

1. short skirts at wimbledon or bikinis on the beach.
2. Beer
3. Bacon sandwiches
4. Case Law v Shira Law
5. Democracy v potentate (Caliph)
6. seeing peoples faces
7. Romantic Marriage (not arranged)
8. Dating
9. Music (anything from Artic Monkeys to Mozart)
10. Hollywood and French movies - all Carry On Movies
11. Dancing
13. Taking the micky out of clerics

Don't like RELGIOUS concepts of:

1. more women going to hell (scary)
2. marrying young girls (sicko feeling)
3. religious food, prayer and clothing laws (rediculous)
4. allowing more than one wife (revolting)


I don't really feel at all comfortable that people
have such beliefs - I don't "hate" the people who
hold such beliefs (apart from marrying young girls)
but I do find it unpleasent.

Tayeb
05-07-2007, 18:38
Hojn,

I think you have drunk too much of Muslim hate, or better Islamophobia.

Ma'a-salaama,

Netcurtains3
05-07-2007, 19:01
.....I can certainly see that it sounds (reads) like that.

I can assure you as I was growing up (A college student)
I had Palastinian mates and as an adult I have had Muslim
Indian, Iranian and Egyptian mates too.

I've looked at the facts, and I seriously cannot bring myself
to like or be neutral about the aisha story, the veils on the
street, the "more women in hell", the 70 virgins for men in heaven.
I think these are the things that upset my sensibilities.

Perhaps if a Muslim woman explained
these things to me (not a muslim man) I might be able to
understand it from a female persepctive.

Tayeb
05-07-2007, 20:50
If you hate Muslims so much and dislike our beliefs why are you wasting your time with us? The list you gave is typical of Islamicphobic persons.

If you explain one day why God chose Mary when she was 11 to 12 years old, I may explain to you the marriage of Muhammad with Aisha.

Netcurtains3
05-07-2007, 21:43
Hi,
No it's not like that.

For sure I have mates who are muslim...

But you do not ask these sort of questions to mates,
these are questions are best dealt with over the net
where we do not have to pretend to understand other
peoples religions just so that we can get on. The net
is ideal to get stuff off your chest because it is impersonal.
Mary is like King David and Abishag the Shunammite
- Abishag was descibed as a "young woman" - no age is given and
no sex takes place.

It would be nice if religion was not linked to a sort of patriotism or
nationalism and we could simply discuss these issues like old mates
without any extra "stuff" involved... That's why its best discussed
between women - there is no sort of male pride involved over
nationalism and patriotism.

Only the other day you and a lady muslim talked about the McCann's
and Madeline - it was not me who bought it up. So I go to my local
infant school to pick up my 11 year old daugher. I see the 9 year
olds in the playground.

We are two "strangers" here, so I guess it's easier to talk about.
How can I, in all honesty (seriously), how can I find it theologically acceptable?

Now, I have given it some thought.

I came up with these:

a) it never happened (likelyhood - VERY LIKELY).
b) its a meta-phyiscal event (eg Mohammed had a trauma at 6, his parents died, and at 9, he lived with his uncle - ages tie in with the girls dates).
c) perhaps the ages are wrong (eg Mohammed seems to have died at 51, 53, 63 - and thus if these dates vary by 10 years perhaps the girls dates vary by 10 years)....
d) the book was written 200 years after mohammed so perhaps its just plan wrong.

But then after I looked at this, I thought, it doesn't matter what I think, it matters what the Sunni Religion thinks.


john

Tayeb
06-07-2007, 12:54
Dear John,

The marriage between Aisha and Muhammad did occur. There may be difference in ages counting for both.

However in the past and up to end of 19th century the age of consent was low. There was no universal higher education. Girls married early.

In jewish society a girl that reached puberty was marriageable. Mary being from a good Jewish family was in age of marriage thus the story of Joseph a much older man (35+) and widower ready to marry an 11 or 12 years old girl.

My great grand mother was 13 when she got married. Her husband was 14 years old. They were from higher-middle class families.

In England the age of consent for heterosexual acts was set at 12 in 1275 and remained so for six centuries. A concern that young girls were being sold into brothels led Parliament to raise the age of consent to 13 in 1875.

Ma'a-salaama,

Netcurtains3
06-07-2007, 18:47
....your examples are all called "relativism" eg so and so
murdered someone so murder is ok.

In religion, unlike science or politics, things are put in
terms of absolutism eg Murder is absolutely wrong no matter
who else did the murder.

A 13 year old has lived nearly 50% more years than a 9
year old. In societies where people often died in their mid
20s it probabily (I'm no judge) can be seen as ABSOLUTELY
correct to marry at 13 - it might give you a good chance of
passing your genes on to the next generation. The fact that
you exist is of some proof of this "fact".

Can the same be said of 9 (in ABSOLUTE terms)?
I don't see how....especially in religion. But I would
be fscinated to hear what muslim women think about this
story.

You ask why I log on, it really is interesting - sometimes its like
looking through a telescope to another world.

John

Netcurtains3
07-07-2007, 11:55
Tayeb,
You've told me about your early life so I should tell you about mine.

My parents both come from very poor working class background.
My dad's dad was a dustman (his mum died early). My mum's dad
drove a horse and cart for a brewery. My mum's mum was a tea lady
in a canteen. My mum came from Bethnal Green (East End of London)
and my dad came from Whitechapel (also the East End of London).
My mum married late (25). I was born when she was in her early 40s.
I am the youngest of a large family. Unlike me, my parents both came from tiny families (perhaps due to poverty) - my dad was an only child and my mum was
one of two. This takes you back to about 1910.

John