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sister_Harb

28-10-2007, 09:15

Sabbah's blog
October 27, 2007

… that non-Jewish Israelis can’t buy or lease land in Israel.

… that Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews.

… that Jerusalem, both East and West, is considered by the entire world community, including the United States, to be occupied territory and NOT part of Israel.

… that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the "territories"? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is given to about 400 settlers, while 15% must be divided among Hebron’s 120,000 Palestinians.

… the United States awards Israel $5 billion in aid each year. Update: Here is a short clip from the documentary "Occupation 101," exposing US Aid to Israel:

… that yearly US aid to Israel exceeds the aid the US grants to the whole African continent.

… that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has nuclear weapons.

… that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites.

… that Israel currently occupies territories of two sovereign nations (Lebanon and Syria) in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions.

… that Israel has for decades routinely sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies.

… that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Occupation Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed by the IOF.

… that Israel refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war.

… that Israel routinely confiscates bank accounts, businesses and land, and refuses to pay compensation to those who suffer the confiscation.

… that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors.

… that the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders, is the Israeli AIPAC.

… that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions.

… that today’s Israel sits on the former sites of more than 400 now-vanished Palestinian villages, and that the Israeli’s re-named almost every physical site in the country to cover up the traces.

… that it was not until 1988 that Israelis were barred from running "Jews Only" job ads.

… that four prime ministers of Israel Begin, Shamir, Rabin, and Sharon, have taken part in either bomb attacks on civilians, massacres of civilians, or forced expulsions of civilians from their villages.

… that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays two American public relations firms to promote Israel to Americans.

…that Israel’s government includes a party which advocates expelling all Palestinians from the occupied territories.

… that Israel’s settlement-building increased rapidly since Oslo.

… that settlement building under Barak doubled compared to settlement building under Netanyahu.

… that Israel once dedicated a postage stamp to a man who attacked a civilian bus and killed several people.

… that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion in at least some instances approved of the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948.

We often hear of Ehud Barak’s generosity about an alleged return of 95% of the Palestinian Occupied Territories. When Palestinians refused, they were blamed for "missing an opportunity." The Palestinians have already accepted Israel’s existence on 78% of what was Palestine. For those who use the argument of the Bible: God said to Abraham, "Unto thy seed, I will give thy land." Abraham had two sons. Ismael - the Arab son, and Isaac - the Jewish son. So even if one wants to go to the Bible, the land would belong to both.

… that Palestinian Christians are considered the "living stones" of Christianity because they are the direct descendants of the disciples of Jesus Christ.

… that despite a ban on torture by Israel’s High Court of Justice, torture has continued by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners.

… that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world.

WELL, NOW YOU DO!

WHAT WILL YOU DO ABOUT IT!?
THE LEAST YOU CAN DO IS LET OTHERS KNOW

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m37611&hd=&size=1&l=e

Netcurtains3

28-10-2007, 13:54

some of what is in this link is true.
What is so upsetting is that some is lies.
Why can't people simply tell the truth?

There is plenty of support for palastinians without
making up lies.

Look at point one - the list says you cannot buy land in Israel if
you are not an israeli. This is actually false.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2058558_buy-property-israel.html

Why lie? What is the point? what do you expect to achieve by
lying?

Net

sister_Harb

28-10-2007, 14:28

Dear Net

if you are Palestinian origin, you can't simply buy land from "Israel".

Also after reading this one you can´t say that "I didn´t know" (surely from news you didn´t see this one?):

Report: “Al Ashqar family, ongoing suffering and abuse by the army”
Saturday October 27, 2007 03:01 by Saed Bannoura - IMEMC & Agencies

Friends of Humanity International published a report on the death of a Palestinian detainee in the Negev Israeli detention facility and the torture of his brother who became paralyzed. The report also highlights the ongoing suffering of their family.

In a detailed report published on Friday, the organization revealed the harm and suffering inflicted by the Israeli occupation on Al Ashqar family,

The report includes details and facts documenting extended suffering inflicted by the occupation on the family of Saty Al Ashqar, from Saida village, near Tulkarem city, in the northern part of the West Bank.

The family buried on Thursday its son, Mohammad, after he was shot and killed by Israeli soldiers who broke on Monday October, 24, into the Negev detention facility, where he was imprisoned, and fired rounds of live ammunition at the detainees. Several detainees were wounded, most injuries were in the head and chest.

The organization interviewed the father of Mohammad who said that Israeli soldiers repeatedly broke into his home, and that an officer once told him that he will “make his life a living hell, and will make everybody hate him”.

Commenting on the killing of his detained son, the father said that he has no doubt that it wasn’t an accident, especially due to the repeated threats by army officers to inflict more harm on the family.

The Organization mentioned in its report that since May 2003, soldiers broke into the house of Al Ashqar 25 times causing damage to the property and to plants, and agricultural products belonging to the family, in addition to the ongoing psychological pressure and distress resulting from these ongoing raids.

The oldest son, Lu’ay, 31, was arrested on April 22, 2005, and was extremely tortured during interrogation in Kishon interrogation center; he became paralyzed due to extreme torture.

Also, the organization stated that the third son, Aseemar, 24, has disappeared after he told his family that he cannot tolerate all of these military attacks and breaking into the family’s home, and also told his family that he doesn’t want to go through what his brother Lu’ay went through.

The organization also reported that in an incident which took place on June 14, 2007, soldiers shot and killed resident Mohammad Abdul-Jabbar Tweir, 23, who was present in front of the house of Al Ashqar. Soldiers though that Tweir is Aseemar.

The Organization demanded the formation of an international committee to probe the crimes practiced against the family of Al Ashqar, and demanded that the officers and soldiers who are involved in shooting Mohammad in the Negev detention facility to be prosecuted.

The group also stated that all injured detainees must receive the needed medical attention and treatment. It also demanded that the family of Al Ashqar should be compensated, especially after the death of Mohammad and after Lu’ay became paralyzed due to torture.

The organization added that the Israeli government, the Israeli prisons authority and the army should end their violations against the detainees, and should prosecute all soldiers and officers involved in abuse cases.

The organization also stated that the International Red Cross should increase its visits to all Israeli detention facilities and interrogation camps in order to protect the detainees from the ongoing violations.

http://www.imemc.org/article/51111

Netcurtains3

29-10-2007, 00:43

The list said "Non-jewish".
Its either true or false.

Your reply now says "palastinian".

This might or might not true, I cannot tell.
I'm pretty sure it must be hard because both
sides are basically at war - it would be a bit
like a German trying to buy a house in the UK
during the blitz. LOL. sorry, but that is
roughly (on a smaller scale) how it is.
NEVERTHELESS, I supect,
if they had a big wad of dosh, and bought the
house as an investment rather than to live in
they probably could buy the house - money talks
(this also goes for Jews trying to live in the Gaza
strip - I doubt that they would have a wonderful
time).

But, my point still stands, its either true or a lie.

Net.

tbahrain

29-10-2007, 06:47

So among this long list (though not exhaustive) only one is being disputed? ;)

The question is then "can non-jews buy or lease land in israel?"

First this: LAND LAW IN ISRAEL

The present landholding system in Israel can be traced back to the events of nearly a century ago, when the Fifth Zionist Congress meeting in 1901 created a private charitable organization called the Jewish National Fund (JNF) with the intent to purchase land for the resettlement of Jews in their ancient homeland. By the eve of statehood, the JNF had acquired a total of 936,000 dunums of land; another 800,000 dunums had been acquired by other Jewish organizations or individuals.11 These holdings amounted to some 8.6 percent of the total land of what would later be Israel; of the rest, more than 70 percent were public lands vested in the British Mandatory authorities.12 All the lands purchased by the JNF remained in JNF hands; these were never sold, either to Jews or Arabs, but instead were leased on a long—term basis for kibbutzim and other forms of Jewish settlement.

With the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, the new government inherited the state-owned lands formerly in the possession of British Mandatory authority as well as property abandoned by Arab refugees. The government sold some of this land to the JNF, and retained the rest. In 1960, the Israeli parliament passed a series of land laws including the "Basic Law: Israel Lands" that defined government-owned and JNF-owned land both as "Israel lands." It reiterated the principle that these lands would only be leased, not sold. While the JNF retained ownership of its lands, the 1960 laws turned administrative responsibility for these (as well as government-owned) properties to a newly-created agency, the Israel Land Administration (ILA).13

The land-owning situation in Israel today is as follows: 80.4 percent is owned by the government, 13.1 percent is privately owned by the JNF, and 6.5 percent is evenly divided between private Arab and Jewish owners. Thus, the ILA administers 93.5 percent of the land in Israel.14 Put differently, 93.5 percent of the land is unavailable for private ownership; such land is sold neither to Jews nor to Arabs but is leased out by the ILA. Thus, while it is true that Israeli law prevents the sale of state—owned land to Israeli Arabs, this alone is extremely misleading, for it is equally unavailable for sale to Jewish citizens of Israel. http://www.meforum.org/article/370

By non-jews we are alluding perhaps to arabs/palestinians as we are not so much concerned of british or americans non-jews buying land in israel as they are most likely to be buying in the bahamas or of late in Palm Dubai.

So what about the applicability of this law? Studies by Israeli academics have shown that land is not distributed fairly even amongst Jews. Professor Oren Yiftael of Ben Gurion University in Beer Sheva showed that development towns—built to house poor immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa—receive less land than the kibbutzim and moshavim affiliated to the political establishment.

Discrimination against Palestinian, Druze and Bedouin Israelis is not just confined to land ownership. The state discriminates against them in relation to development credits and the allocation of resources to local councils in towns such as Nazareth, with the result that Palestinian local authorities lag far behind their Jewish counterparts in terms of services and development. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jul2002/arab-j18.shtml

Now since only jews are allowed to emigrate to israel, if those from the 'middle east and africa' are discriminated against (because they are non-caucasians?), would it be wrong to say worst would be applicable to palestinians?

Take this example: The Katzir communal association, which only accepted Jewish members, stopped Israeli Palestinians from building homes and businesses in the community even though its land belonged to the state via the Israel Lands Administration.

The case became a cause célèbre in Israel and clearly posed a dilemma for the High Court, as it took five years for it to hear the case and reach a decision. Despite the court’s ruling more than two years ago, bureaucratic procedures have been used to block its implementation and prevent the Ka’adans from buying and building a home in Katzir.

Perhaps israel's law on rights of return would throw some light on the land for non-jews issue: Israel is the only state in the world that is not the state of its citizens but of the whole Jewish people, both those within Israel and throughout the world. This in turn gives Jews rights that non-Jews do not have. Under the Law of Return, one of Israel’s Basic Laws—Israel does not have a constitution—is that Jews have the right to immigrate to Israel and become citizens, whereas Palestinians who were born there and fled during the 1948 war to establish the Zionist state do not.

tbahrain

Netcurtains3

30-10-2007, 01:05

tbahrain

30-10-2007, 06:58

Netcurtain3,

Maybe they are not lying but telling the truth as they themselves experienced it firsthand. Having a law that says equality to all is one thing but implementing that law justly is another even in defiance of whatever rulings. Good example is the so called security wall/fence/barrier/whatever. The ICJ has ruled it to be illegal but do the isrealis care? Notice also the 60 over un and unsc resolution regarding israel and not a single one has been complied with. Any other country wound be bombed back to the stone-age.

We can go on and on and on and the list would be endless but the truth of the matter is this is the most ruthless, undemocratic, hypocritical state in the world, in my opinion below even burma or zimbabwe.

tbahrain

Tayeb

30-10-2007, 17:27

tbahrain,
I didn't bother to look beyond the very first one on the list.
My point is once you bring lies into a "court room" the "jury"
ignore all your evidence. This is a shame as the Palastinians
have many valid points.

I know its a lie because even the Muslim press reported that
recent immigrants to Israel from Russia included Nazi gangs
eg from BBC web: "Some of the immigrants are thought to have only the most tenuous links to Judaism,"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6987848.stm

I'm not disputing that some people find it hard to live in certain
areas in Israel - its a shame because had the writer said that then
it would have been a truth. Why did he (or she) feel the need to extend
this by a lie?

It only damages the Palastinian cause. Perhaps the blog writer is
Jewish? I sometimes feel this is the explanation - why would a Palastinian lie if the only gainer is the Israel.

On the Israeli Nazis, although there was an attempted "whitewash" by CNN and BBC as there was utter disbelief among jews. Anyhow none of these nazis can be deported as they are citiziens by right, i.e. they have a jewsih ancestor.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/09/wnazi109.xml

"The men, all recently arrived Russian immigrants who are nominally Jewish through a grandparent, ...".

So John sorry they aren't any christian or non-jewish immigrants.

Netcurtains3

30-10-2007, 20:45

sister_Harb

30-10-2007, 21:48

Here is some other articles about the real nature of Isreal, for example they "democracy" and how they really treat they citizens who are non-jews:

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/258.shtml

:rolleyes:

Tayeb

30-10-2007, 22:43

Tayeb,
There are two seperate things:
1) buying a property
2) Living in it.

From the evidence I think its beyond doubt that more or less anyone can buy
investment property in Israel thus proving the first part of the blog wrong.

But I would go further, clearly a huge percentage of new wave immigrants are not Jewish. Some pretend to be and others start out by being "guest workers" and then simply stay (aka turks in germany).

John, I am ready to invest in Jerusalem and want to buy land there. Let's try out and I offer you partnership or commission. You can contact me by email or PM and we'll discuss terms and conditions. I accept such a challenge to prove whether anyone can buy land in Israel.

Netcurtains3

30-10-2007, 22:57

tbahrain

31-10-2007, 12:46

s3, br tayeb,

Sounds like a good idea however would like to suggest that you immediately make it known that you are a non-jew better still mention that you are a Muslim. Let's see how far it goes. If I am a betting man I would say it would not even take-off unless you are dealing with a con-man.

Anyway, here's an interesting article by a well respected writer Israel Shahak.

Excerp: The "Salvation of the Land," that concept which is pushed into the brains of all the Jewish pupils in Israel from the kindergarten on. What is this? The meaning of this term is that according to the teaching of Israeli Ministry of Education, a land which was "saved"—was to a Jewish ownership. A land which has not yet been "saved" belongs as yet to human beings who were born of non-Jewish mothers, and one has to "save" it. Messengers of the JNF, who enjoy the most forceful support the Israeli government and especially of its "security arms," are employed continually in "saving" land both in Israel and in the conquered territories, and in changing it into an additional area of racism.

The best and the newest example is Rafiah Approaches. I do not want to discuss here the problems of the "fair" or "unfair" compensations for the Arabs who were expelled from that area, or the problem of "Jewish work" or "Arab work" in that area. (The debate on those questions I leave to hyprocrites of MAPAM and MOKED). I want only to ask a simple human question: Do the people who lived in that area until a few years ago enjoy the right to dwell in the new racist town of Yamit?4 Has an Israeli Arab the right to settle in Yamit? The open and the official Israeli answer is: No! Only Jews enjoy the right to live in the new racist town of Yamit, and in the other settlements established near it. The reasons for that step do not interest me. Maybe the Tsars of Russia had a good reason when they have prohibited Jews from dwelling outside the area of the "Pale" only because they were Jews. But this was racism! Similarly what is done now in Rafiah Approaches and similar acts of "salvation of land" in any other area, in Israel or in the conquered territories constitute a similar act of racism.

Full article: http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/racist_israel.html#bottom

tbahrain

Tayeb

31-10-2007, 18:53

thats a very interesting idea.

Why don't you simply follow the link I posted near the top of the thread and ask for further details.

Ask as a muslim man, upfront, no mucking about, ask if you can buy investment property in Israel. You do not want to live there, just invest there - a straight business deal all above board and koshur.

From the site it has:

"
you should send an e-mail to lyle@buypropertyinisrael.com explaining your concerns or stating your questions. Lyle Plocher is the founder of Buy Property In Israel. Lyle is the owner and Designated Broker of Urban Connection Realty in Phoenix, Arizona and is also an Associate Broker with Venice Properties in Venice, California.
"

just email Lyle: lyle@buypropertyinisrael.com

Come on John, I'm not bluffing. Lately I've been investing in Mozambique, Zimbabwe and in Czech republic. As a foreigner I had no dificulties in buying land in Zimbabwe contrary to the propaganda in UK.

On Israel I bet I won't be that sucessful. I know of land in Jerusalem that can be purchased but the jewish owner(s) will never sell to a Muslim. Even if they do I won't be able to finalise the deal due to hurdles that can be brought about, like I am non-resident, or that the jewish owners have decided otherwise, and many other things.

But I am willing to try. I promise you'll make money, if you help me by being the front man.

I am confident I can also get some investors with money if the first deal goes through.

Ma'a-salaama,

Netcurtains3

31-10-2007, 21:29

Tayeb,
I'm not interested in being a front man.
Everything has to be 100% above board - open and clear.

I am not an Israeli or a Palastinian and I should not take
sides (I can see both sides have rights and wrongs).

I will email the person in the above link and find out more.

I'll let you know what happens.

John

Netcurtains3

02-11-2007, 21:50

It doesn't look like I'm going to get a reply.
Perhaps I should try an estate agent based in the UK.
I'll keep you posted.
Net.

Netcurtains3

03-11-2007, 17:38

.surprise surprise.. They have replied:

"
A non-Jewish person can still buy a home in Israel. The key is finding property that is “privately owned” as opposed to “government owned”. In some cases, you might have difficulty dealing with a Jewish person that doesn’t want to sell to a Muslim. They don’t really have strong “fair housing” laws there like in the U.S. I don’t know what the “fair housing” laws are like in the U.K.
"

So it appears that you do have a point - but if you do not tell them your religion and they do not ask?

John

Tayeb

03-11-2007, 21:09

Dear John,

I have also checked by myself and found out the same thing and worse of all not to be able to complete the process of buying. It is not worth the hassle, but when I do get some investors I will try to buy.

I want to buy from jews as they hold the best land and have no problems like with water and electricity. In Israel even these basic scarce resources aren't distributed evenly. Unless after I buy some land, I find out that water and electricity has been limited for me.

Welcome onboard from innocence. At least you found out the truth on this matter.

Ma'a-salaama,

Netcurtains3

03-11-2007, 21:56

Tayeb,
I personally would not buy land in a place I would not visit.

On the other hand, I would visit the basque part of spain as its
only a short distance from England (either car ferry from Portsmouth
or £90 return ticket to Toulouse and hire a car at the airport).

I think the Basque region is one of the least developed parts of Spain
but it is "relatively" near biarritz, san sebastian and the pyrenees
(Pamplona) all good tourist trail sites.

However, I am currently not buying property, I'm bargain hunting
AIM penny shares ( currently ZYZ.L (potential huge marine contract
with Indian government for new 2008 Marine Laws) and PFC.L (recovery stock))

John