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lubna
14-08-2009, 11:48
s3

here is something for brother sipraomer to read and inshaAllah things will get clearer for him .below is an excerpt from the link at the end.


''The Punishment of the Apostate according to Islamic Law

Publisher's Request

At present the evil of apostasy has spread extensively among Muslims because they are unfamiliar with their religion. In view of this fact there is an urgency now as never before to present the actual injunctions of Islam related to this problem.

Mawlana Sayyid Abul Ala Mawdudi, recognized as a well known and competent scholar throughout the Muslim world, has fully covered and clarified all aspects of this problem. He has dealt with the matter convincingly and effectively from both the revelational and the rational perspectives. He has demonstrated the perfection of the Islamic teaching on the subject and has effectively countered the objections raised by Islam's opponents. This valuable book should be distributed widely now in order to save Muslims unfamiliar with the subject from this terrible evil.

Three editions of this book have been previously published. Even then, the book has not been available for a period of time. We are publishing the fourth edition by offset in a more attractive format. It is our firm hope that our kind readers will enjoy this new edition and will co-operate in giving it as wide a distribution as previous editions received.

A.H. 22 Muharram, 1383
A.D. 25 June, 1963

Respectfully
Akhlaq Husain, General Manager
Islamic Publications Ltd., Lahore

Preface by the Author

This brief essay was written originally in response to a question and was published in the October 1942 to June 1943 issue of the magazine Tarjuman al-Qur'an. Since the topic deals with a very contentious problem in Islamic law and has created a disturbance in the hearts of most people, this essay is now presented as a separate publication.

The question alluded to above was as follows:

Has Islam established execution as the penalty for the apostate? What proof of this is found in the Qur'an? If execution as the penalty of apostasy cannot be established from the Qur'an, to what extent can it be derived from the Hadith and the Sunnah? Moreover what could have been the reason leading Abu Bakr to execute the apostates? How can the legality of the execution of the apostates be demonstrated rationally?

Under a truly Muslim rule should non-Muslims receive the same right to propagate their religions as Muslims ought to receive to propagate their religion? Under the Rightly-Guided Caliphs and their successors were rights accorded to kuffar (infidels) and ahl-i kitab ("The People of the Book": Jews and Christians) to propagate their religions? To what extent do the Qur'an, the Sunnah and reason demonstrate the absence of this legality?

I have thought much about both these matters but have not been able to arrive at any conclusion. Both sides have strong arguments. The Qur'an and the Sunnah offer no special explanation about these matters, at least as far as my limited understanding goes. It will be good if an answer to this can be published in Tarjuman al-Qur'an because many others like me are interested in this discussion.

Two matters in the question require clarification:

1. What are the authentic injunctions of Islam regarding the execution of an apostate and religious propagation by non-Muslim communities?

2. What arguments do we have which will satisfy us and which, we expect, will satisfy others that these injunctions are rational?

Both of these matters are discussed on the following pages.....''


read more at:

http://answering-islam.org/Hahn/Mawdudi/

sipraomer
17-08-2009, 09:52
Well Sister, Salam. The thing is answering.Islam .org is a propaganda site against Islam. let me be clear. I don't know whether you read it or just wanted to try to give me more info on the topic. Maudoodi is from Pakistan. My own maternal uncle is in his party Jamat e Islami. I have also worked in his party as a student for six months. I disagree to some of his writings. Mullah's have a problem in our region especially. They are not familiar to modern knowledge and are away from correct perception of Islam. I will give you reasons why he is wrong at this subject. First I want to notify answering.islam.org is the site opened by non muslims in response to answering.christianity.org which is opened by muslims. So the first site mentioned is not a good source for posting articles about Islam as these are often lies and against Islam.

Now coming to the subject.
First verse which the article metions.

But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief -- Lo! they have no binding oaths in order that they may desist. (9:11,12)[1]

This ayat is clear enough to show that it was a state of war. Non Muslims were constantly breaking their treaties. But here the writer says that it is clear that " Here "covenant breaking" in no way can be construed to mean "breaking of political covenants"

When we see all the eleven ayats of Soorah Taubah. We will realize the cunningly written deception in the first example in this article.



1. Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from All‚h and His Messenger (SAW) to those of the MushrikŻn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of All‚h), with whom you made a treaty.

2. So travel freely (O MushrikŻn - see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) All‚h, and All‚h will disgrace the disbelievers.

3. And a declaration from All‚h and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Isl‚mic calendar) that All‚h is free from (all) obligations to the MushrikŻn (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (MushrikŻn) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) All‚h. And give tidings (O Muhammad SAW) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.

4. Except those of the MushrikŻn with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely All‚h loves Al- MattaqŻn (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Isl‚mic calendar) have passed, then kill the MushrikŻn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Sal‚t (Iq‚mat-as-Sal‚t), and give Zak‚t, then leave their way free. Verily, All‚h is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[]

6. And if anyone of the MushrikŻn (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of All‚h) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of All‚h (the Qur'‚n), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.

7. How can there be a covenant with All‚h and with His Messenger for the MushrikŻn (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of All‚h) except those with whom you made a covenant near Al-Masjid-al-Har‚m (at Makkah)? So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them. Verily, All‚h loves Al-MuttaqŻn (the pious - see V.2:2).

8. How (can there be such a covenant with them) that when you are overpowered by them, they regard not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant with you? With (good words from) their mouths they please you, but their hearts are averse to you, and most of them are F‚siqŻn (rebellious, disobedient to All‚h).

9. They have purchased with the Ay‚t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of All‚h a little gain, and they hindered men from His Way; evil indeed is that which they used to do.

10. With regard to a believer, they respect not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who are the transgressors.

11. But if they repent, perform As-Sal‚t (Iq‚mat-as-Sal‚t) and give Zak‚t, then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the Ay‚t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know.


AYat 1 and 4 proves that there was a treaty and if they fulfill it and don't break it, don't harm them.

Later on Ayat 6 straight away says that If non muslims seek protection give them so. Being as non muslims. Where as the article mentions that God says that if they become muslims leave them. IF they don't then they should leave the place other wise they will be killed. Skipping the fact that if non muslims stop fighting and ask for protection , you should give them so.


So research on any topic is necessary. Our problem is that we don't research and the infidels take advantage of this. The very first example disproves the authenticity of this article. So I will not bother on further discussing the material given on that article. I request you sister to read before posting again and especially research about the site from which you are posting first. Authenticity of the source is also important.

sipraomer
17-08-2009, 10:00
What I am trying to say about Apostasy

If punishment to all apostates is right. Then, should we also say that non muslims should also have the same attitude towards those non muslims which embrace Islam. Especially in muslim minority countries.?

2. Reasons are given that a muslim if converts to any other religion, he may leak the state secrets.

My question to this weak argument is that

: Does every one know the top secrets like nuclear weapons or other state secrets. Only the government , the intelligence and the defense know the secrets. So if they convert to other religions, then they are to be punished as traitors. But as far as common public is concerned they are not to be treated like that. Other wise it will 1. be in conflict with this verse "that there is no compulsion in Islam".

and 2. It will give a bad name to Islam. So when God has not made a rule, why should we out of our ignorance.

The right perception and right logic is necessary.

Netcurtains3
17-08-2009, 12:07
sipraomer ,
In most christian religions (including Roman Catholic - my own religion) - the
"death" stuff is in modern times taken to mean a religious death and not a physical death - eg, specifically you are "excommunicated"
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

It can be reversed - eg Joan of Arc was called a heretic by the church originally and now a saint. Martin Luthur was excommunicated.

The problem is not one of religion but more the case that young people in some countries are receiving a very poor education and its little more than a crude indoctrination with little or no academic value. That is the nub of your problem - its nothing to do with what the specific meaning of a ruling is - its much deeper than that - its the whole education system itself - its rotten to the core. Even in so called modern Islamic countries (eg Malaysia) the non-muslims and secular muslims pretty much universally hate the current setup and want it changed.

lubna
17-08-2009, 12:27
s3

i have great respect and admiration for maulana mawdudi 's scholarly work. and i am not the only one. he is an international renowned scholar Alhumdulillah. i have read most of his books and have a collectiojn of them too. you dont understand him, i can only feel sorry for you.

i put this link of the site, cos that was the only site that had, the famous and best booklet translated in english of maulana mawdudi's on the subject of apostasy. its called ''murtad ki saza'' i.e ''punishment of apostate'' and its in urdu language.

i have got urdu booklet with me alhumdulillah.

as for the site being quote:The thing is answering.Islam .org is a propaganda site against Islam:end quote

the thing is it has pro punishment and anti punishment of apostate material. so the abul ala maududi one is pro . my main objective was for you to read his view. cos intersitingly the anti punishment is your view as well as the view of propagandanists against islam ....:)
as the saying goes,

badnam na hon*** to kiya naam na ho ga

i.e even if people are giving bad names to us, they are still promoting/advertising us.

and it happend in makkah when quraish bad mouthed prophet muhammad salalho alyhe wasallam infront of people coming for hajj . and in doing so they advertise the name of muhammad sallaho alyhe wallam and his mission so fast . they acted as an ecetronic media....:). and people got interested in finding out more about this man that they heard .
same happend after 9/11 when so many of quraan copies were sold that they ran out of them.

so i put this link for you to read the book of maulana mawdudi on th net as well as read the oppsing view i.e your view put by either the enemy of islam or confused muslims like you


and for your information wikipidia is a not a reliable source either, which you put in your previous post.it is biased against islam too. no surprise there.so is BBC.
once again the booklet 'murtad ki saza' is the best and concise book written on this subject. i would advise all to read it please. as these are times of fitnah, we need to equip ourselves with right information inshaAllah.

as for your question 1st question. it comes from stark confusion from you as a muslim.i will eloborate on it inshaAllah.

do you, as a muslim beleive islam is the ONLY TRUTH remaining?

sipraomer
23-08-2009, 18:51
s3

i have great respect and admiration for maulana mawdudi 's scholarly work. and i am not the only one. he is an international renowned scholar Alhumdulillah. i have read most of his books and have a collectiojn of them too. you dont understand him, i can only feel sorry for you.

i put this link of the site, cos that was the only site that had, the famous and best booklet translated in english of maulana mawdudi's on the subject of apostasy. its called ''murtad ki saza'' i.e ''punishment of apostate'' and its in urdu language.

i have got urdu booklet with me alhumdulillah.

as for the site being quote:The thing is answering.Islam .org is a propaganda site against Islam:end quote

the thing is it has pro punishment and anti punishment of apostate material. so the abul ala maududi one is pro . my main objective was for you to read his view. cos intersitingly the anti punishment is your view as well as the view of propagandanists against islam ....:)
as the saying goes,

badnam na hon*** to kiya naam na ho ga

i.e even if people are giving bad names to us, they are still promoting/advertising us.

and it happend in makkah when quraish bad mouthed prophet muhammad salalho alyhe wasallam infront of people coming for hajj . and in doing so they advertise the name of muhammad sallaho alyhe wallam and his mission so fast . they acted as an ecetronic media....:). and people got interested in finding out more about this man that they heard .
same happend after 9/11 when so many of quraan copies were sold that they ran out of them.

so i put this link for you to read the book of maulana mawdudi on th net as well as read the oppsing view i.e your view put by either the enemy of islam or confused muslims like you


and for your information wikipidia is a not a reliable source either, which you put in your previous post.it is biased against islam too. no surprise there.so is BBC.
once again the booklet 'murtad ki saza' is the best and concise book written on this subject. i would advise all to read it please. as these are times of fitnah, we need to equip ourselves with right information inshaAllah.

as for your question 1st question. it comes from stark confusion from you as a muslim.i will eloborate on it inshaAllah.

do you, as a muslim beleive islam is the ONLY TRUTH remaining?

Asalamo Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah Wabarakatuhu
There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is our last Prophet.

Sister having an emotional love for a personality is different. But when the word of God is being discussed we have to keep our mind and heart neutral. I respect Maullana Maudoodi. But it is not necessary that he is right on every account. Questioning a Muslim's faith is not an Islamic practice. As far as you ask me. Yes I believe that ISlam is the only truth. But one may not mis represent the truth. Because it would be its insult. I didn't quote wikipedia for promoting that apostasy has no punishment as some scholars have said so. I clarified the fact that apostasy has two kinds. And the arguement given in favor of all apostates is weak. It can't apply on all. But it applies on some who truly know the secrets of the state.

So apostasy has to be categorized if we give the arguement that secrets of the state are in danger to be leaked.

We have to leave favoritism in order to understand Islam in the right manner. What proof you have that Answering.Islam.org has not changed the english translation mis representing the whole concept.

Secondly the word of Scholar is not the word of God. We all make mistakes, so do the scholars. Our source of understanding Islam is only Quran and Hadith. Nothing else can be accepted unless they are not in conflict with Quran and Hadith.

If you dis agree with me please give arguements in support of your point. Just because scholars say so doesn't mean it is like that. That is the better way of understanding Islam.

lubna
08-09-2009, 23:49
s3

Whoso desireth any other religion than Islam, that religion shall never be accepted from him, and in the next world he shall be among the lost. Qur'an 3:83


Yes I believe that ISlam is the only truth.

that proves the followers of other religion are on falsehood cos they have altered their teachings. as is claimed by the Quraan.
can truth and falsehood be equal, NO!. can one with eyes equal to a blind, NO!

can a healthy and life giving drink be eaqual to a poison , NO!

so just becos we are offering people a healthy and life saving drink , doesnt mean that we have to drink their poison in return. we will say NO! and if they kill the ones drinking our life saving drink then so be it, those beleivers will only attain paradise. remember surah buruj!



and by the way non muslims i.e US and UK etc are killing/bombing muslim men ,women and children in the muslim MAJORITY country.they might have different plan for their apostates i.e reverts....only Allah knows.



But one may not mis represent the truth. Because it would be its insult.


so a person who takes islam as a truth which you and me both know IT IS A TRUTH, but then suddenly claims its not a truth but falsehood. isnt he misrepresenting the truth. infact he is lying.

will other people who havnt even tested and verified islam YET be mislead by this lier. they will say this man has been there and tested islam and found it to be false, which you and me both know is not true.

so this is why we say an apostate has a right to choose hell for himself but he has no right to guide others to hell as well. that is why we make him die for his wrong faith, after explaining islam to him again of course.
and in doing so he should attain the status of a hero for the rest of the apostates to come....... but apparantly he doesnt. i wonder why!

challange of death is the biggest test of ones faith in anything as is said in the holy quraan. mujahideen do it all the time and socrates did that too.

and that is why we dont kill dhimmis in an islamic state cos they havnt witnessed or accepted the truth of islam YET.

ther is no compulsion in religion, truth stand clear from falsehood. once you see truth clearly then there is no denying after that.


so to sum the answer to your 1st question: no we will not accept them to kill thier 'apostates' as they are not apostates at all but are indeed the guided ones.





may Allah guide us all to the truth, give victory to mujahideen and make islam prevail the lands Ameen.

sipraomer
14-09-2009, 19:49
s3

Whoso desireth any other religion than Islam, that religion shall never be accepted from him, and in the next world he shall be among the lost. Qur'an 3:83




that proves the followers of other religion are on falsehood cos they have altered their teachings. as is claimed by the Quraan.
can truth and falsehood be equal, NO!. can one with eyes equal to a blind, NO!

can a healthy and life giving drink be eaqual to a poison , NO!

so just becos we are offering people a healthy and life saving drink , doesnt mean that we have to drink their poison in return. we will say NO! and if they kill the ones drinking our life saving drink then so be it, those beleivers will only attain paradise. remember surah buruj!



and by the way non muslims i.e US and UK etc are killing/bombing muslim men ,women and children in the muslim MAJORITY country.they might have different plan for their apostates i.e reverts....only Allah knows.






so a person who takes islam as a truth which you and me both know IT IS A TRUTH, but then suddenly claims its not a truth but falsehood. isnt he misrepresenting the truth. infact he is lying.

will other people who havnt even tested and verified islam YET be mislead by this lier. they will say this man has been there and tested islam and found it to be false, which you and me both know is not true.

so this is why we say an apostate has a right to choose hell for himself but he has no right to guide others to hell as well. that is why we make him die for his wrong faith, after explaining islam to him again of course.
and in doing so he should attain the status of a hero for the rest of the apostates to come....... but apparantly he doesnt. i wonder why!

challange of death is the biggest test of ones faith in anything as is said in the holy quraan. mujahideen do it all the time and socrates did that too.

and that is why we dont kill dhimmis in an islamic state cos they havnt witnessed or accepted the truth of islam YET.

ther is no compulsion in religion, truth stand clear from falsehood. once you see truth clearly then there is no denying after that.


so to sum the answer to your 1st question: no we will not accept them to kill thier 'apostates' as they are not apostates at all but are indeed the guided ones.





may Allah guide us all to the truth, give victory to mujahideen and make islam prevail the lands Ameen.


First of all this verse in Quran tells us that that person has chosen hell fro himself. But this verse doesn't say kill him/her.

Secondly the person who after accepting Islam becomes an apostate is the one who has not accepted Islam with sincerity or true heart or his faith is weak.

He may mis guide other muslims but non muslims also misguide other non muslims even if they research on Islam , knowingly that Islam is the true religion after they research on it scientifically. Why is that that an Apostate will be more effective than persuading the non muslims.

IF Mushriqun used to make joke on our Prophet and tell this thing to others. They didn't lie/ They joked on the truth because they didn't know and couldn't comprehend. Today Non Muslims are mis representing Islam which is in its mis favour than its favor.

How can you or any Alim devise a punishment which God has not set.

The only argument given by scholars is that Apostasy is punishable because the secrets of the state could be leaked.

On the basis of this argument apostasy is punishable for Government officials only and not the public.

Islam doesn't bind the muslims on the basis of terror of death. That if you leave it you will die. Islam binds the muslims because of truth and because it is the real religion. Will it not instill this thought in the minds of non muslims that Islam binds muslims on the basis of fear and not truth.

You arguement doesn't have any base. No where in the Koran apostasy's punishment is mentioned. Some Scholars say that Apostasy is of two kinds. Harmful and un Harmful. For harmful (which is the apostasy of government officials) there is a death penalty and for un harmful (Common public) no punishment is described.

I agree to these scholars only

Give an argument on strong basis and strong references. Your argument is weak.

lubna
27-09-2009, 20:54
You arguement doesn't have any base. No where in the Koran apostasy's punishment is mentioned.

سورة التوبة

فَإِن تَابُوا وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ فَإِخْوَانُكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ ۗ وَنُفَصِّلُ الْآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ11

But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.



12 وَإِن نَّكَثُوا أَيْمَانَهُم مِّن بَعْدِ عَهْدِهِمْ وَطَعَنُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ فَقَاتِلُوا أَئِمَّةَ الْكُفْرِ ۙ إِنَّهُمْ لَا أَيْمَانَ لَهُمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَنتَهُونَ


And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.


''The occasion for the revelation of this verse: During the pilgrimage (hajj) in A.H. 9 God Most High ordered a proclamation of an immunity. By virtue of this proclamation all those who, up to that time, were fighting against God and His Apostle and were attempting to obstruct the way of God's religion through all kinds of excesses and false covenants, were granted from that time a maximum respite of four months. During this period they were to ponder their own situation. If they wanted to accept Islam, they could accept it and they would be forgiven. If they wanted to leave the country, they could leave. Within this fixed period nothing would hinder them from leaving. Thereafter those remaining, who would neither accept Islam nor leave the country, would be dealt with by the sword. In this connection it was said: "If they repent and uphold the practice of prayer and almsgiving, then they are your brothers in religion. If after this, however, they break their covenant, then war should be waged against the leaders of kufr (infidelity). Here "covenant breaking" in no way can be construed to mean "breaking of political covenants". Rather, the context clearly determines its meaning to be "confessing Islam and then renouncing it". Thereafter the meaning of "fight the heads of disbelief" (9:11,12) can only mean that war should be waged against the leaders instigating apostasy.''


so brother omer, quraan nowhere specifies that only kill the person if the secret of states are in danger as is claimed by the scholars you follow , but rather it says kill them if they stop reading salah and paying zakah and hence the reason hazrat abu bakr (RA) waged war against such murtadeen .

here is some hadeeth too,



. Abdullah ibn Masud (RA)reports:

The Messenger of God stated: In no way is it permitted to shed the blood of a Muslim who testifies that "there is no god except God" and "I am the Apostle of God" except for three crimes: a. he has killed someone and his act merits retaliation; b. he is married and commits adultery; c. he abandons his religion and is separated from the community.(Bukhari kitabu diyat,Muslim kitabulqisama,almuharibine,walqasas,wadiyat,abu dawood kitabul hudud baab fil hukm fi min irtad)

. Aisha (RA) reports:

The Messenger of God stated that it is unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim other than for the following reasons: a. although married, he commits adultery or b. after being a Muslim he chooses kufr, or c. he takes someone's life.(Nisaaee, baab zikr ma yahillo bihi dam al muslim)

. Any person (i.e., Muslim) who has changed his religion, kill him.

This tradition has been narrated by Abu Bakr, Uthman, Ali, Muadh ibn Jabal, Abu Musa Ashari, Abdullah ibn Abbas, Khalid ibn Walid and a number of other Companions, and is found in all the authentic Hadith collections.





1.How can you or any Alim devise a punishment which God has not set.

The only argument given by scholars is that Apostasy is punishable because the secrets of the state could be leaked.

On the basis of this argument apostasy is punishable for Government officials only and not the public.

2.I agree to these scholars only

brother you have just contradicted yourself in your points 1 and 2.




Islam doesn't bind the muslims on the basis of terror of death. That if you leave it you will die. Islam binds the muslims because of truth and because it is the real religion. Will it not instill this thought in the minds of non muslims that Islam binds muslims on the basis of fear and not truth.

brother you are confused again, islam wants serious minded people to join its ranks and not,impulsive, fickle, jokers , superficial,emotional,capricious people.

so only people who recognise islam as THE TRUTH will join it. and others are free to live as non muslims WIHOUT any FEAR. islam doesnt force them to become muslims but indeed demands from them their PROMISE and LOYALTIES once they do .

as the hadeeth goes,
'' la emaana limanl la ahda lahu''

''he who doesnt keep his promise has no eemaan.''

may Allah guide us all to the truth,give victory to mujahideen and make islam prevail the lands Ameen.

wassalam
luubna

sipraomer
29-09-2009, 02:42
سورة التوبة

فَإِن تَابُوا وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ فَإِخْوَانُكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ ۗ وَنُفَصِّلُ الْآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ11

But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.



12 وَإِن نَّكَثُوا أَيْمَانَهُم مِّن بَعْدِ عَهْدِهِمْ وَطَعَنُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ فَقَاتِلُوا أَئِمَّةَ الْكُفْرِ ۙ إِنَّهُمْ لَا أَيْمَانَ لَهُمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَنتَهُونَ


And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.


''The occasion for the revelation of this verse: During the pilgrimage (hajj) in A.H. 9 God Most High ordered a proclamation of an immunity. By virtue of this proclamation all those who, up to that time, were fighting against God and His Apostle and were attempting to obstruct the way of God's religion through all kinds of excesses and false covenants, were granted from that time a maximum respite of four months. During this period they were to ponder their own situation. If they wanted to accept Islam, they could accept it and they would be forgiven. If they wanted to leave the country, they could leave. Within this fixed period nothing would hinder them from leaving. Thereafter those remaining, who would neither accept Islam nor leave the country, would be dealt with by the sword. In this connection it was said: "If they repent and uphold the practice of prayer and almsgiving, then they are your brothers in religion. If after this, however, they break their covenant, then war should be waged against the leaders of kufr (infidelity). Here "covenant breaking" in no way can be construed to mean "breaking of political covenants". Rather, the context clearly determines its meaning to be "confessing Islam and then renouncing it". Thereafter the meaning of "fight the heads of disbelief" (9:11,12) can only mean that war should be waged against the leaders instigating apostasy.''


so brother omer, quraan nowhere specifies that only kill the person if the secret of states are in danger as is claimed by the scholars you follow , but rather it says kill them if they stop reading salah and paying zakah and hence the reason hazrat abu bakr (RA) waged war against such murtadeen .


Again sister lubna you have posted this passage from the same article and same site. This is a distortion of the fact. You are taking it out of the context. Here it is clearly mentioned in these verses that there was a peace treaty among muslims and non muslims. They broke that treaty and because of it God has ordered muslims to wage war. In that sate of war if one accepts Islam or seeks protection by surrendering while remaining nomuslims, they are to be pardoned. But if they keep on fighting then they are ordered to be killed. You are the victim of same propagandist which base this argument and say that Islam teaches that all of the non muslims are ordered to kill.

DO you read and surf the net. Do you know that these verses are used by non muslims to propagate this thing that Islam teaches to kill all the non muslims but the real truth is that if we read frist verses of this surah , we know that God is talking about a peace treaty. Non muslims broke that treaty and waged war, in that state of war non muslims are to be killed but if they surrender or accept Islam, they are not to be harmed. A non muslim can also surrender like the surrendering of non muslims in the victory of Makkah when our Prophet said this thing that any non muslim who takes refuge in the house of Abu Sufyan and who remains in his home will not be harmed. DO you know that? Please research on this topic and don't just copy paste again and again the same thing when I have explained you again and again the same thing. These verses are posted here out of context, out of context, out of context. to blame Islam of tyranny. islam is a true religion.

I have read ahadith of the Prophet and have found many sahih ahadith talking about the punishment. But I again argue that those ahadith are about harmful apostates. For instance there was a jew who converted to Islam but created a foul group of followers and taught them that HAzrat ALi is equal to God. Naozubillah, Ali (RA) ordered them to be burnt.

My question again remains that then what is the meaning that Religion has no compulsion. If you can't convert others with force, how can you retain others through force. Will they be true Muslims if they remain muslims out of fear.

Secondly, Islam is for our benefit. God doesn't care if all of the humans embrace or reject Islam. God says it is for your own benefit. If you embrace and practice Islam then you will save yourself from hell. If not you will burn in hell.

Thirdly, in hadith , it is also said that , that person who doesn't offer prayer commits kufr."

So should we kill that person who doesn't offer prayer after saying the kalima too. Because if he commits kufr by not praying, he is also an apostate technically.

Several meanings can be taken from a statement. So please elaborate in detail and answer the questions I ask to clarify this problem.
I have stated very Clear facts. I am not confused. You are not informed as far as I think. ANd please next time also tell the number of hadith or ayat quoted so that it is easy to confrim and research on that hadith and verses.

Dr. Zakir Naik also explains these verse in a lecture.


Seconldy, how about the reverts. Means that person who accepts Islam. Then changes his course and then accepts it again.

I know many instances when new converts were not treated nicely. Because of that reaction they changed their religion again.
What about that ?

Should we in this case kill those who have changed their religion again. Or should we punish those muslims who have misbehaved with their new muslim brothers and sisters. Here which thing is right to do?

Punsihment of apostasy doesn't apply on all.

sipraomer
29-09-2009, 04:08
So when we go deep down and deal different cases, we have to specify which kinds of apostates are to be killed and which are to be not. Those who are mistreated by fellow muslims and leave Islam. what about them. Those who are not trouble makers , what about them. Those who don't pray or are lazy, what about them as they are also doing kufr. Those who are not spreading lies about Islam after leaving Islam, what about them. Those who are misguided by our own scholars and because of the wrong information they get a wrong impression, what about them.

If muslims remain muslims out of fear of death , what quality of muslims they will be. Will they not think that I am a muslim just because the state will kill me if I leave Islam. Will they be called true Muslims.? These are the questions I want to ask.

Please answer them in order to convince me or tell me the real meaning of this Hadith.

lubna
02-10-2009, 00:13
They broke that treaty and because of it God has ordered muslims to wage war.

and how did they breake that treaty? as Allah says, by not praying and giving zakat and reviling the deen openly i.e turning apostate and then they need to be fought.


In that sate of war if one accepts Islam or seeks protection by surrendering while remaining nomuslims, they are to be pardoned. But if they keep on fighting then they are ordered to be killed. You are the victim of same propagandist which base this argument and say that Islam teaches that all of the non muslims are ordered to kill.

all of the above you said has NOTHING to do with apostasy. we are not talking about non muslims at war or plain original non muslims here.

DO you read and surf the net. Do you know that these verses are used by non muslims to propagate this thing that Islam teaches to kill all the non muslims

brother why are you panicking, Alhumdulillah you and I are muslim. and we both know very well that islam doesnt teach to kill ALL non muslims.so please dont drag them in and stick to the point.




but the real truth is that if we read frist verses of this surah , we know that God is talking about a peace treaty. Non muslims broke that treaty and waged war, in that state of war non muslims are to be killed but if they surrender or accept Islam, they are not to be harmed. A non muslim can also surrender like the surrendering of non muslims in the victory of Makkah when our Prophet said this thing that any non muslim who takes refuge in the house of Abu Sufyan and who remains in his home will not be harmed. DO you know that? Please research on this topic and don't just copy paste again and again the same thing when I have explained you again and again the same thing. These verses are posted here out of context, out of context, out of context. to blame Islam of tyranny. islam is a true religion.


yes Alhumdulillah i know very well about conquest of makkah and abu sufyan, but what relevancy that has with the apostasy ?I WONDER!
those makkans who took refuge in abu sufyan's house were all NON MUSLIMS and not APOSTATES. furthermore it only proves to your ' propagandists non muslims' that islam DOESNT teach to kill ALL non muslims.

I have read ahadith of the Prophet and have found many sahih ahadith talking about the punishment. But I again argue that those ahadith are about harmful apostates.

give us the proof of your claim. where in quraan and hadeeth you can find this differentiation of harmful and less harmful apostates.

i have given my proof from quraanic ayah and hadeeth that what is apostasy and what is the punishment for it.


My question again remains that then what is the meaning that Religion has no compulsion. If you can't convert others with force, how can you retain others through force. Will they be true Muslims if they remain muslims out of fear.

kafirs are free to beleive what ever, be it a cow,a monkey,a son of God,fire,stars,sun ,moon,their ancesters etc. we only present islam to them and if they beleive islam is the truth then they accept it, if not ,they are free to reject it. and we will not kill them for it. here that ayah comes i.e there is no compulsion in religion, truth stand clear from faslehood.nobody is forcing people to revert to islam.

and this is totally wrong that we make people remain muslims out of fear of death. on the contrary we are stoping those people from entering islam who play games and chage their loyalties for their persoanl interests, and who dont have stability in their character and opinions. to establish an islamic society and state is a serious objective. so we dont need time wasters.we want people of clarity of thoughts and mind. and people should know that you only enter in it if you find it to be the right thing to do. and there is no way out once you do enter it.this way we stop the unsure and confused people from entering it.



Secondly, Islam is for our benefit. God doesn't care if all of the humans embrace or reject Islam. God says it is for your own benefit. If you embrace and practice Islam then you will save yourself from hell. If not you will burn in hell.


true , that is why you wont find fanatic islamic preachers as you would in christianity and other religions.you wont find muslims giving money and provisions as you would find in missionaries.

Thirdly, in hadith , it is also said that , that person who doesn't offer prayer commits kufr."

So should we kill that person who doesn't offer prayer after saying the kalima too. Because if he commits kufr by not praying, he is also an apostate technically.

so long he hasnt denounce islam completely, he still has a hope and can pray by getting beaten up.

prayers is the main difference between a kafir and a muslim. why would a person not pray after he has said shahadah. we start teaching a child to pray when he is 7 and punish him when he is 10. so you and me as parents will make sure our children are true muslims and any revert will not accpet islam if he finds prayers to be hard.

it is the duty of parents and then duty of islamic state to establish prayers and zakat in the society.as Allah says in the quraan when we give authority to mumineen they establish prayers and justice in the lands.

Allah also says in the quraan that people will be burning in hell for not praying salah.
do you still think not praying is a small matter?




I know many instances when new converts were not treated nicely. Because of that reaction they changed their religion again.
What about that ?

Should we in this case kill those who have changed their religion again. Or should we punish those muslims who have misbehaved with their new muslim brothers and sisters. Here which thing is right to do?

Punsihment of apostasy doesn't apply on all.

it is not me or you who decide but the job of islamic state and qazi to judge each individual case and then deal with them systamatically. i.e remove their confusion and misconceptions,present islam to them again ,beat them etc etc



so to sum it up the punishment of apostate is applied by islamic state/qazi . it is their job to investigate the matter.. so the islamic ruler or qazi imprisons him and talks to this apostate and explains islam to him again ,might beat him ( to test how strong his conviction is) and asks him if he still wants to denounce islam and accept death for it. if he says yes then he is put to death (like socrates and can become a hero for the rest of apostates to come...:) ), but if he thinks its not worth it then he will come back to islam. death is a big test Allah says in quraan to jews, if you think you are more beloved to Allah then wish for death i.e hasten to meet Allah.

but if he is a coward and escapes the death by lying i.e hypocracy according to you, then so be it . he has a right to be hypocret and burn in hell for it but he has no right to misguide others and take others with him. his hypocracy is in his heart and only Allah knows about it,you and me dont. unless he comes out and says i lied, then he will be put to prison and the process repeated again....

and lastly yes hypocracy is worst than disbeleif, that is why a non muslim's life is spared but a muslim turning non muslim is a hypocret! ask yourself, is islam worth abandoning? you will say NEVER then who will leave it but a hypocrite. who will call sugar a poison but a hypocrite/lier.

Allah says in quraan, al fitnah akbaru minal qatl i.e fitnah( making people astray from deen) is bigger than murder!


i think i have said enough on this subject, i will rest my case inshaAllah.
if we still dont agree , then so be it. to you be your way, to me be mine.

may Allah guide us all to the truth, give victory to mujahideen and make islam prevail the lands Ameen.

sipraomer
26-10-2009, 05:55
Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from All‚h and His Messenger
(SAW) to those of the MushrikŻn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of All‚h), with whom you made a treaty. (At-Tawbah 9:1)

So travel freely (O MushrikŻn - see V.2:105) for four months (as you will) throughout the land, but know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) All‚h, and All‚h will disgrace the disbelievers. (At-Tawbah 9:2)

And a declaration from All‚h and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Isl‚mic calendar) that All‚h is free from (all) obligations to the MushrikŻn (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (MushrikŻn) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) All‚h. And give tidings (O Muhammad SAW) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve. (At-Tawbah 9:3)

Except those of the MushrikŻn with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely All‚h loves Al- MattaqŻn (the pious - see V.2:2). (At-Tawbah 9:4)

Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Isl‚mic calendar) have passed, then kill the MushrikŻn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Sal‚t (Iq‚mat-as-Sal‚t), and give Zak‚t, then leave their way free. Verily, All‚h is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (At-Tawbah 9:5)

And if anyone of the MushrikŻn (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of All‚h) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of All‚h (the Qur'‚n), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not. (At-Tawbah 9:6)

How can there be a covenant with All‚h and with His Messenger for the MushrikŻn (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of All‚h) except those with whom you made a covenant near Al-Masjid-al-Har‚m (at Makkah)? So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them. Verily, All‚h loves Al-MuttaqŻn (the pious - see V.2:2). (At-Tawbah 9:7)

How (can there be such a covenant with them) that when you are overpowered by them, they regard not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant with you? With (good words from) their mouths they please you, but their hearts are averse to you, and most of them are F‚siqŻn (rebellious, disobedient to All‚h). (At-Tawbah 9:8)

They have purchased with the Ay‚t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of All‚h a little gain, and they hindered men from His Way; evil indeed is that which they used to do. (At-Tawbah 9:9)

With regard to a believer, they respect not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who are the transgressors. (At-Tawbah 9:10)

But if they repent, perform As-Sal‚t (Iq‚mat-as-Sal‚t) and give Zak‚t, then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the Ay‚t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know. (At-Tawbah 9:11)


I have posted these verses to tell you that you are wrong. I don't know from where you have heard this information that it was because the muslims stopped paying zakat and offering prayer. You are buying the story from a Imam Mosque may be. But the fact is that you haven't read the verses from start despite of the fact that I insisted on this issue that read the whole verses. Sister this is our problem today that without researching we are believing and that is why we are being lashed.

These verses are revealed for Kafirs (Infidels and Infidels don't pay zakat neither offer salah.

But if they repent, means if they convert to Islam from Kufr and Pay zakat and Offer Salat as Muslims.

But if they remain kaffirs and but retreat or stop fighting then Leave Them Alone. THose who have not broken the treaty 9:4. According to 9:5, the second condition is that if they convert to Islam. According to 9:6, if they throw away arms, and show the white flag, means if they stop fighting surrender then give them Protection.

According to all of these verses these are the points proved.

1. There was a treaty between Kaffirs and Muslims.
2. The Kaffirs broke the pact.
3. In the battlefield Kaffirs are to be killed like in any other situation of war. One army kills the opposing one. So this is the time of war, they are to be killed.
4. IF they surrender protect them.
5. If they stop fighting leave them.
6. IF they convert to Islam and pay zakat and Salat as mulsims , then they are your brothers.

These verses have nothing to do with apostasy if we read from the start. That is the point I am pointing out from the very start.

I see where your voice is coming from. I opened a whole thread named Our mistakes and our weaknesses after you said some harsh words.

1. You said previously that Do I still believe that Islam is the only truth. Means you were doubting my faith.
2. Instead of arguing me intelligently, you are saying that I am confused. And I am following wrong scholars.

I don't follow a specific scholar. I follow everyone who is telling the truth and who is right, even if he/she is a kaffir. God has given me a mind like He has given to others. I prefer to use it. I don't believe anything just because it has been said by a famous scholar. I mentioned earlier that a scholar's word is not the word of GOd. He is a human. he can make mistakes.

You are without doubt representing a misunderstood side of Islam. I will not further discuss on this topic and will not respond to your comments later on as the very first comment in your last post shows your lack of knowledge and your lack of conviction of researching on this topic. You have not even read the verses I so much insisted to be read from the start of this Surah.

No one has the right to judge other's faith. Are you the one I am going to answer on the day of Judgement? No! Then who are you to give me the degree of faith? I will tolerate disagreement but not insults. You say me that I am confused. In reality you are good at copy pasting, but you are no good in thinking , intellect and researching and analyzing the whole thing.

O'Really and Mr.John have also disagreed with me. But they have given arguments. They have not said that I am wrong just because they think they are right. They have given me arguments. Are you sure that you are right? Are you the sole interpreter of Islamic Teachings.

This is our problem today. We can't accept others views. In the same Quran it is written that research on anything. Don't believe on things said just like that. But do research. The same Quran you are quoting tells us to research.

I believe that in hadith also it is more of a political order not a religious one.

At that time Islam was starting and there were not much converts.If you have read, there was a War of Uhud in which 300 Hypocrites left the strong Muslim Army of 1000. These were the situations which Muslims had to avoid. So first of all apart from references , the scholars have given only one reason. Apostate must be killed because state secrets are in danger to be leaked.

And I have given the reason on the basis of this argument that this reason can't be applied on all people. This can be applied only on those people who know the secrets. State officials know the secrets. So on the basis of this argument , all of the people can't be targeted.

This is a wrong approach towards Islam and its teachings. Unless you change your attitude and stop calling me confused, I will not further discuss.

lubna
26-10-2009, 11:11
s3



i think i have said enough on this subject, i will rest my case inshaAllah.
if we still dont agree , then so be it. to you be your way, to me be mine.





I will not further discuss on this topic and will not respond to your comments later on

it is better that we agreed to disagree rather than going all fanatical about it.

Asalam o Alaikum, I visited many sites. I answered many questions. Had have a real hot debate. Fought with words even. But I happened to come to a point where I can't find guidance. This matter which is disturbing me is Apostasy. In Koran Allah says that There is no compulsion in Islam. But some scholars say a person who leaves Islam is to be killed.

Can any one explain and shed some light on this matter.?


so Alhumdulillah, i just fulfilled my duty towards you as you asked for it .you are the one who sounded unclear about apostasy from your above words( which i called confused).

i tried my best to help you as this matter of apostasy is crystal clear to me Alhumdulillah.and we will all be rewarded for our intentions inshaAllah.


may Allah guide us all to the truth, give victory to mujahideen and make islam prevail the lands Ameen.

sipraomer
26-10-2009, 15:56
Yes but later on I also cleared out this matter of apostasy. I posted the above mentioned views about apostasy in another thread. And you opened this thread in response to that post. I asked this questions many days ago. And after doing some thinking I got to the conclusion later on. Then you opened this thread.

http://www.myiwc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8542

In this thread I responded my own question after researching , when for so long my question got un answered. I was unclear at first. But later on I found the answer. You opened this thread far later sister.

By the way , if in anger my words have offended you then I apologize. I didn't mean to hurt you. It was just a reaction. Please don't doubt anyone's faith.

sipraomer
26-10-2009, 16:17
Some group of Muslims believe in killing apostates because they follow a Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him regarding the apostates. While Islam was weak and still growing among Jews, Christians and Pagans, Muslims did not have the full and complete religion that they needed. Some Jews and Christians wanted to take advantage of such situation to destroy Islam. They had a plan to adopt Islam first and then desert it, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterward

http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

sipraomer
26-10-2009, 16:20
By the way I also have this source for you to read.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

In a hadith it is also mentioned that Allah will not forgive a person who accepts Islam, then leaves it, then accepts it again, then leave it again.

According to this hadith even if your logic is right and I do agree to the concept you have explained that Islam is not a joke, even then seeing this hadith , we should give a chance to those people to reconsider for once. After accepting Islam if they leave it and then accept it then afterwards accepting for the second time, if they leave afterwards , then they are to be punished.

Beating or life threat cannot bring faith in a person. So Life threat should not be intentioned for the retaining of muslims. But yes I do agree to this that it should be there to stop People from joking with the religion.

But in this context they should be given one chance with a warning. That if for the second time you accept Islam, make sure that you believe it the right religion otherwise you are gonna die.

My point is also not useless. Do consider it with cool mind. By the way thank you for showing me the other side .

sipraomer
26-10-2009, 16:27
Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."

sipraomer
26-10-2009, 18:27
By the way it is unfair to compare Socretes with apostates. Socrates was against false religions and customs and emphasized on the virtues of truth, logic and common sense. Apostate is the wrong guy. So please don't compare a good man with a bad man. I like Socrates by the way.