Our Weaknesses and Our mistakes

[sipraomer]

Bismillah Hirahman Niraheem


There is a phrase in urdu that before criticizing others, see in your own collar first. Muslims are being attacked, are being made fun of, are behind in science and technology and are behind in cultural morality even. We are following the west blindly because inside us there is a feeling that indeed we are inferior. Consiously or un consciously we have lost hope in the word of God. Where as we don't practice on God's orders and yet we ask that Oh God! If we are really beloved of yours then why?

That is Why?

Our intellectual institutions are damaged. What the Quran says , we are doing the opposite almost. Like christians we have limited Islam to the mosques only. In the month of Ramadan prices go high in Pakistan for basic food products. We depend on other's loans. We follow the business of interest. We are not tolerant in discussions and can't bear other's arguements. We believe in myths of cultures rather than true stories of our Prophet. We visit shrines and believe that dead beloved men of God can give us something but we don't believe anymore that God himself can give us every thing if we follow HIS orders. We get confused in our religion. Rather than listening to what Prophet says, we believe more on scholars. Where as very few scholars know the religion. We accept blindly what they say but we don't do effort to research ourselves what is right and wrong. Anyone giving a different perspective of the picture, we think him to be ours and Islam's enemy rather to debate with him/her intelligently. In fact we are our own enemy. Most of us tell lies. Quran orders us to lead governments with advice and dictatorships are practiced in majority of our countries. Hypocrisy and telling something while acting something else is at its peak. Corruption is at its peak. Instead of serving the mankind, most of us believe that Jihad is targetting the common public. Where as Jihad is eliminating wrong and bring right to power. We are ourself wrong so how can we tell others to be right and how can we save innocents from tyrrants when we support tyrants directly or in directly. We don't want to work. We don't want to struggle. We don't want to see in our own collars. And yet we claim to be muslims. And yet we criticize the non muslims. And yet we don't feel ashamed when we pray from God that Oh God! Shed mercy upon us. Where as we are ourselves not merciful to us.


This post was not to disappoint. Neither it was to criticize. Nor it was to create sadness. But it was just a reminder that what are we and What we should be.

Each and every one of us have a responsibility and we will be asked from the Ultimate Judge in the final court of Justice. There is chaos. But there is hope. But only if, we realize because before acting, we have to know, where the problem lies. We are the representers of truth. We have to practice this truth ourselves first. Read this post with cool mind. Otherwise you will not understand the message. May Allah show you what is right and what I want you to see.

[Netcurtains3]

Hi,
You said:
"Muslims are behind in science and technology and are behind in cultural morality even"

This is not true. In the West some scientists and judges/barristers/solicitors come from a muslim background.

So why is it that muslims do ok-ish in Western states but muslim run "rich" states like Malaysia have to have all sorts of quasi-racist laws in order for muslim malaysians to stay anywhere near on a par with the buddhist-secular-malaysians?

The reason is religion should keep its nose more or less totally out of politics and law. Religion is for the INDIVIDUAL, it is not for states or even family groups, it is for ONE PERSON only, and it should be totally personal. Keep religion out of the law and politics and all will be well.
Now we hear that Malaysia is going to FLOG a muslim WOMAN in public for drinking a glass of BEER!!!!! Had she been buddhist or secular etc it would not have been against the law. Malaysia is cracked in the head. That is your problem, the religious states are all crackers.... all of them, it doesn't matter what religion, its NUTS....
Its more than NUTS, its LOONY TUNE NUTS.

You just have to read some of the muslim posts here .....
I rest my case.

[sipraomer]

Hi,
You said:
"Muslims are behind in science and technology and are behind in cultural morality even"

This is not true. In the West some scientists and judges/barristers/solicitors come from a muslim background.

So why is it that muslims do ok-ish in Western states but muslim run "rich" states like Malaysia have to have all sorts of quasi-racist laws in order for muslim malaysians to stay anywhere near on a par with the buddhist-secular-malaysians?

The reason is religion should keep its nose more or less totally out of politics and law. Religion is for the INDIVIDUAL, it is not for states or even family groups, it is for ONE PERSON only, and it should be totally personal. Keep religion out of the law and politics and all will be well.
Now we hear that Malaysia is going to FLOG a muslim WOMAN in public for drinking a glass of BEER!!!!! Had she been buddhist or secular etc it would not have been against the law. Malaysia is cracked in the head. That is your problem, the religious states are all crackers.... all of them, it doesn't matter what religion, its NUTS....
Its more than NUTS, its LOONY TUNE NUTS.

You just have to read some of the muslim posts here .....
I rest my case.

You may be are right about Christianity or other religions . But Islam is a complete way of life. Unfortunately we can call no government today an Islamic government. It is not being practiced neither it is being understood righteously. Islam encourages prosperity and science and technology. As we were the leaders once. The example you gave is very wrong. Malaysia is the most advanced country in education and modern science compared to other muslim countries. Even if we leave religion for dialogue sake. Good governance is must to achieve economical prosperity. The west has left the religion that is why it has lost cultural stability should I say. So now Islam in its true practical form can only lead culture as well as science.

In ahaidth and Koran, we see the quotes like " Can those who know be equal to those who know not" and "Every muslim has the duty to gain knowledge".

As well as " Make your decisions through consultation" which gives an idea of democracy.

In Koran it is also said that " OH Muslim Ummah! Don't get divided"
Means that unity of nation is also emphasized.

Being honest, telling the truth, honesty in business, charity, tax for helping the poor(zakat), preventing the dictatorship of interest based economy where those who can't pay interest are constantly made slaves of further interests.

Governments accountability in front of the public if they are not following the Islamic code and not giving rights to the people given by God. All of these things are linked with practical life. Reminding you of the fact that many western governments have taken most of the governing laws from the Islamic governments of very first caliphs of Islam. Almost one hundred rules of only the shariah of Umar bin Khattab are still being practiced today in the western world. The department of police and population calculating department are one of the things introduced by him and still are being practiced to the day. So Islam is different in this manner.

[Netcurtains3]

sipraomer ,
This is your problem - a typical example. A muslim girl from a poor background from the East End of London. She got four grade A A'levels in Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology. She wants to be a doctor. Not one single university took her on this year. Why was this? The newspaper did not say apart from it did quietly mention her age - nineteen. In the UK you take your A levels at 18, os I'm guessing some of these are retakes. In order to get into medicine you have to do brilliantly academically at the right age AND also do a great deal of work experience at the same time (Eg join red cross, or St Johns Ambulance or go to 3rd World as a volunteer helper etc)..... Its a FULL TIME project to get into the top of the academic world. How can you be a ACTIVE RELIGIONIST (in the full sense) and also get into top univsersities at the same time - not everyone is Einstein, most people have to work incredibly hard. You're hitting your head against a brick wall - move on, the world has.

[sipraomer]

sipraomer ,
This is your problem - a typical example. A muslim girl from a poor background from the East End of London. She got four grade A A'levels in Maths, Chemistry, Physics and Biology. She wants to be a doctor. Not one single university took her on this year. Why was this? The newspaper did not say apart from it did quietly mention her age - nineteen. In the UK you take your A levels at 18, os I'm guessing some of these are retakes. In order to get into medicine you have to do brilliantly academically at the right age AND also do a great deal of work experience at the same time (Eg join red cross, or St Johns Ambulance or go to 3rd World as a volunteer helper etc)..... Its a FULL TIME project to get into the top of the academic world. How can you be a ACTIVE RELIGIONIST (in the full sense) and also get into top univsersities at the same time - not everyone is Einstein, most people have to work incredibly hard. You're hitting your head against a brick wall - move on, the world has.

Being an expert in religion is a different field like specialization. Being religous is somewhat different. Not every one can be a religon specialist. But every one can be religous. Religion of Islam is in every field. But as far as the jurisdiction or law making is concerned, that is the duty of religous experts and scholars. A common person is ordered to follow the code as much as possible maintaining a balance in his domestic and professional life. As far as that girl is concerned "Are you trying to say that she missed one year just because she was religous." If you mean this then your logic is foul. A man can be a scientist yet he can be an honest, humanity loving, truth telling, pious, and good person. That is what Islam is all about. Be good and walk on the right path.

[Netcurtains3]

Hi,
I was under the impression that in Islam there is a lot of "official" praying at different times of day (affecting school work) , also lots of fasting periods (which affects concentration) also there is some requirement to learn stuff "of by heart" from Koran (taking time away from academic persuits but also affecting the way you learn - eg it makes the young mind think you learn by "learning stuff off by heart" which is wrong - that is not how you learn - eg you try and do a maths puzzle simply by learning off by heart - it will do your head in - the number of combinations required).
Thus a clever child from a muslim background, is, to my mind, handicapped by their religion - remember it does not take much - there is HUGE COMPETITION for the BEST PLACES - if you are down but 0.05% compared to the coal miners son or daughter from Durham that coal miners child will get the place and yours will not.
This is a fact, very few scientists compared to the general population are religious and the more senior the scientist (Eg nobel prize winners) the less religious they are. This is fact.

[sipraomer]

Hi,
I was under the impression that in Islam there is a lot of "official" praying at different times of day (affecting school work) , also lots of fasting periods (which affects concentration) also there is some requirement to learn stuff "of by heart" from Koran (taking time away from academic persuits but also affecting the way you learn - eg it makes the young mind think you learn by "learning stuff off by heart" which is wrong - that is not how you learn - eg you try and do a maths puzzle simply by learning off by heart - it will do your head in - the number of combinations required).
Thus a clever child from a muslim background, is, to my mind, handicapped by their religion - remember it does not take much - there is HUGE COMPETITION for the BEST PLACES - if you are down but 0.05% compared to the coal miners son or daughter from Durham that coal miners child will get the place and yours will not.
This is a fact, very few scientists compared to the general population are religious and the more senior the scientist (Eg nobel prize winners) the less religious they are. This is fact.
Prayers in different times give spiritual strength. It is scientifically proved that when a person bows down and sets his head on the floor, certain magnetic waves come from the earth which creates anti depressent elements in minds. A large part of the day which is from the sunrise to mid noon is free from prayer especially made for work. It takes only fifteen minutes to offer one prayer. Edison used to rest for ten minutes after every two to three hours. Like wise ablution and body exercise from prayer refreshes mind and body for the next activity.

Secondly learning Koran by heart is a virtuous deed but it is not compulsary.
This practice was started in the time of Muhammad so that the original scripture can be preserved no matter what happens. Secondly learning the meaning of Koran and practicing it is also necessary. Yes our religous schools emphasize on learning the Koran by heart more and don't emphasize on trying to know its modern meaning. It is their backwardness and lack of interest for bringing religous research to the advanced level. But it is not the instruction of Islam to do so. Fasting is only for one month of Ramadan in the whole year. It increases your concentration as you discipline your body as well as mind by prohibiting and stopping yourself to do bad deeds. Muslims don't perform well in their own countries because your leaders spend on education and ours spend on their own luxuries. It is a matter of good governance and right decisions.Malaysia is a good example that she spends 40% of her budget on education. And it is clear to the world that Malaysia is progressing economically and intellectually as well. Most of the Muslim countries are selling oil and buying luxuries instead of gaining education. Some Muslim countries are in hostile envirnoment and are compelled to continuosly focus on military advancement instead of focusing on educational and economical progress.

[Netcurtains3]

sipraomer,
Malaysia is not a good example as it uses positive discrimination in favour of muslims because without this discrimination the universities would be dominated by non-muslims (mainly chinese of a buddhist background).

Typical survey (30% of scientists believe in God against 80% in general public)
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/survey.one.in.three.scientists.believe.in.god/23833.htm


Private schools do so well in the UK, and one reason is the amount of home work they "force" the kids to do (it can be hours each night). Some kids from South East Asia spend nearly their entire spare time "doing educaton".....

On the other hand, faith schools can proveably be shown to be more successful than secular schools but sociologists point out that the
main reason for this is not religion but rather the social profile of people who are interested in religion in the free west - eg they tend to be more middle class than average because "having interests" (including religion) requires spare time, discipline and moderate intellect. Religious schools compared to purely middle class secular schools (eg private fee paying schools) don't do so well - thus religion is not really the key but rather the key is more akin to having "western middle class values" - often associated with the Tory pary: family, charity and education.

[sister_Harb]

The reason is religion should keep its nose more or less totally out of politics and law. Religion is for the INDIVIDUAL, it is not for states or even family groups, it is for ONE PERSON only, and it should be totally personal.

Dear Net;

this is just your personal and background opinion. Religion is indivual matter for most of Europeans now. Thats why most of Europeans feel themselves lonely as they have lost they contact to they relatives or to they family members or even to themselves and looking for some show from TV or cinema or drugs instead reliagion.

In islamic families they don´t need to look love and caring from outside; in Islamic countries this love and caring with others you can find from your family, your relatives, your community, your country and also from your whole Islamic Umma.

In Islamic Umma we have Islamic law whats main meaning is take care our needs and ourselves, control our behaviour and keep it in Islamic way.

As muslims we don´t need to be one person only- system, we are as same family where all parts take care others.

As born-European, I thank Allah as I am part of my Umma, not that kind of "individual community".

:D

[Netcurtains3]

Hi sister_harb,
There is no co-relation between lonelyness and personal faith.
Western lonelyness is related to the widespread
use of the motor car instead of walking. Women working also has added to the problem. This is also compounded by very large communting distances - in my case another Nation (but often communiting is about 1.5 hours from house - thus three hours a day!!!).

Of course there is some religious community for personal faithers - in Finland on Sunday the new Catholic Bishop of Finland is getting "Bishopised", and I actually
have blood relatives in Tampere.

[Netcurtains3]

ps....
When I said "walking" v "car" I should have explained why the car causes lonelyness to those who do not realise.

In the West, before the motor car, most people walked to work and chatted to people (neighbours/friends etc) on the way. When you came home late at night many people would still be on the streets and it would feel safer to be outside at night. Conversations, some quite deep, would be held on the bus or train. You still hear many conversations on buses (less so on trains but still many).

With the advent of the motor car community spirit was broken. What is required to "fix" the west is the removal of the motor car and the wide spread reintroduction of public transport and walking.

The car should be banned.

[Netcurtains3]

sister_Harb ,
I should also add that if you are talking about Finland
its worth pointing out that the women begging outside
Finlands main railways station appear to be wearing
head scarves (could be muslim) and the lonely youths
hanging around the main railway stations internet
booths are always north africans - I appear to be the only
European there. If what I say is correct something
does not appear to add up in this wonderful Finnish
Muslim community. On the other hand I did see many
Iranian (and other young Muslims) demostrate in
Helsinki square along side the communist party demanding
open democracy in IRAN NOW!!!! I hope you joined your
fellow religionists on this demostration for democracy...
Remember, I'm there now, I know what is going on.

[sister_Harb]

As Finnish I have no responsibility what other people in Finland are doing - may Allah follow them to right path.

I don´t talk Finland only but all western world. People here are lonely as they haven´t any controll of religion like they have in islamic world.

p.s. I have been member of communist party (SKP) for years even I don´t accept all of they ideas; I am maybe they only muslim member. I respect they ideas of social welfare but not about they love to ex-Soviet Union and some other matters like political matters of Kosovo; they know I support free Kosovo and they don´t but as you see, I am still member of that party

:cool:

[Netcurtains3]

Sister_harb,
There are lots of problems in Muslim countries (non-Western) with beggars:
http://www.groundreport.com/Business/Emirate-in-UAE-Bans-Beggars-During-Ramadan
If you were such a caring sharing religion then you would not have such a huge problem. The west, with its history of social welfare (and high taxation) is better
for the poor. Finland obviously has a real problem with depression because of its northern latitude (lack of light) and small isolated communities.
Lonelyness is a path often taken by the righteous.

[sister_Harb]

I know problems of Finnish people.

A lot of suicides, specially by young men, depressing, home violence, drug problems. Oops and they eat too much pork and have heart diseases too.

May I send you best recipe of Kalakukko - eat it every day next five years and your heart will says "piiiiiiiiiiiiiip". In Tampere they eat as "musta makkara" - made by blood of pork.

But they are not muslims.

:D

I am and I am happy to be.

[sipraomer]

sipraomer,
Malaysia is not a good example as it uses positive discrimination in favour of muslims because without this discrimination the universities would be dominated by non-muslims (mainly chinese of a buddhist background).

Typical survey (30% of scientists believe in God against 80% in general public)
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/survey.one.in.three.scientists.believe.in.god/23833.htm


Private schools do so well in the UK, and one reason is the amount of home work they "force" the kids to do (it can be hours each night). Some kids from South East Asia spend nearly their entire spare time "doing educaton".....

On the other hand, faith schools can proveably be shown to be more successful than secular schools but sociologists point out that the
main reason for this is not religion but rather the social profile of people who are interested in religion in the free west - eg they tend to be more middle class than average because "having interests" (including religion) requires spare time, discipline and moderate intellect. Religious schools compared to purely middle class secular schools (eg private fee paying schools) don't do so well - thus religion is not really the key but rather the key is more akin to having "western middle class values" - often associated with the Tory pary: family, charity and education.

Look! Racism is in every country. Some where based on religion. While in other places based on ethnicity or color. If Malaysia is not a good example then no country is not a good example. What I have said is that Malaysia spends more on education than any other Muslim country and that is why she is progressing. Secondly she doesn't have any military enemy nor she is in hostile environment. What point here I want to make is that you people have separated religion from this world's life. What Islam says is that religion is in every part of life. Secondly, frankly speaking many of our scholars also don't realize this fact and think that religous education is separate from world's education. Let me put it like this. Usage of Nuclear technology for a secular minded person will be for his national interest, which may include destruction of the other state. But a person who truly believes in Islam will not destroy other countries, instead he will use nuclear to fulfill his energy needs. Now a person who strongly believes in Islam will see the Islamic perspective of science. That would be for the betterment of mankind and not to create weapons etc etc.

I will try to elaborate more. For instance in a biology class, we are studying that how do lungs work. The procedure of eating food and breathing, etc etc. There is a hadith that we should drink water while sitting, not standing. Science has proven that it is dangerous to drink water while standing. Because both of the tubes of breathing and food are in an equal position while we are standing. This endangers us in a way that food or water could accidently go in the breathing tube and we could die. Now we have taught religion in a biology class.

We have learned two things here. Manners of eating and biological process of eating and breathing. etc. What I want to say is that there is a vast gap between this world's education and religous education. Our scholars have so far failed to fill that gap. But the true Islamic education will consist of the quality of such education seen in the above example. Islam does not discourages science or practical education, it encourages it.

I believe that I am using easy words and comprehensible ideas which you can understand. I haven't said anything impossible. What I am saying is that What should be? And what is not? Where as you are reffereing to the present condition of religious education. Christian or Jewish or religious education of other religions may be limited to commandments and gospels. Our religion emphasizes on research. No religous scripture but Koran says that go out and research. How the ancient nations disobeyed and then were destroyed. Means Koran encourages the subject of Archeology. Now you are pointing out to typical Mullah institution where the teacher has to give sermons which are not practical in this world's life. But when we say Islam is the complete code of life, it really is. If you study the un biased version of history. you will find hundreds of Muslim scientists who laid the foundation of modern science, yet they were very pious religious people.

[Netcurtains3]

yes I would love the recipe.
So far - to avoid pork I'm eating:
1. Chili con carne
2. spaghetti bolognese
3. carbonara (with english bacon)
4. english fry up (eggs, beans, fried potatoes, cabbage and any meat lying around)
5. tuna steak.

(can't buy cod or haddock or plaice or dover sole - what sort of country is it!!!!)

[sister_Harb]

I think, Net, you again and again write off topic here.

:D

[Netcurtains3]

sipraomer ,
You mis-understand me, when I say religious education, in the UK this INCLUDES Muslim (there are muslim state schools in the UK - we're not France ROFL). However, as the Muslim schools themsleves state (along with sociologists) so far the good results match the high socio-economic status of the people who send there kids there; they do not really add much value - I mean the results are in line with what would be expected from ultra-keen parents. So what I'm saying is, from the SOCIOLOGICAL evidence available there is no real evidence that religious education helpes people from deprived backgrounds and in fact its possible over stating the religious aspect rather than helping the poor actually causes violence war and death (eg Northern Irish Catholic V Protestant Schools). Working class muslim schools in the UK might well lead not to greater education but more violence aka Malaysia race riots of the 1960s

[Netcurtains3]

also you said:
"There is a hadith that we should drink water while sitting, not standing. Science has proven that it is dangerous to drink water while standing."

It is not dangerous to drink while standing (within reason) - all marathon runners are given liquid while standing (even running). If it was "dangerous" it would be banned.

[sipraomer]

also you said:
"There is a hadith that we should drink water while sitting, not standing. Science has proven that it is dangerous to drink water while standing."

It is not dangerous to drink while standing (within reason) - all marathon runners are given liquid while standing (even running). If it was "dangerous" it would be banned.


I advise you to visit this non muslim site..

http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/2091561.aspx

[sipraomer]

sipraomer ,
You mis-understand me, when I say religious education, in the UK this INCLUDES Muslim (there are muslim state schools in the UK - we're not France ROFL). However, as the Muslim schools themsleves state (along with sociologists) so far the good results match the high socio-economic status of the people who send there kids there; they do not really add much value - I mean the results are in line with what would be expected from ultra-keen parents. So what I'm saying is, from the SOCIOLOGICAL evidence available there is no real evidence that religious education helpes people from deprived backgrounds and in fact its possible over stating the religious aspect rather than helping the poor actually causes violence war and death (eg Northern Irish Catholic V Protestant Schools). Working class muslim schools in the UK might well lead not to greater education but more violence aka Malaysia race riots of the 1960s

Look buddy, in simple words. The present religous schools are not good for education and can produce nothing, Upto that part I agree to you and that is what I wrote in my very first post in this thread, if you recall.

What I said is that most of the muslims don't understand their religion and if our religious education is taught according to the modern perspective or scientific education, it will create a balance and beauty. You should not forget that secular educational institutions also produce racism, disturbance in the society. You should see the voilent young students of USA messed up in the gun and drug culture. I mean bullying and fighting is common in so called educational institutions. I am not talking about UK cause the English is a civilized nation as a whole. Although they are racist too. Now I don't know why you are not getting my point that according to Islam, there is no difference between religious and scientific or this world's education. Because Islam is not a bunch of commandments. Islam is a complete practical system. With its own judicial, social, economic, political, militaristic, diplomatic laws. The aim of starting this thread was to point out the same problem you are pointing out. But you are getting the wrong meaning. It is not that if most of us don't understand Islam and give a wrong perspective then Islam is like that. The thing is that rational logic is needed today to understand Islam in its true form and introduce a new educational system which will teach 2+2=4 through the eyes of Islam.

[Netcurtains3]

sipraomer,
I know the drink standing v sitting appears off topic but in reality it is on topic. A typical poor excuse for science is the site you picked - a school girl gives out hearsay to the gulliable about why its good to sit versus stand when drinking water. Her hearsay is connected to the distance the water falls from mouth to stomach and the wideth of the oesophagus. It is simple to disprove - get a ruler and measure the distance from your mouth to stomach standing or sitting (no slouching) - if they are more or less identical then she is talking cobblers (which she is). Also put a mirror to your mouth and look as you drink in both postures - its all nonsense!!! But worse than that, you want to promote "muslim" science but then use hearsay as evidence. tut tut tut.

Anyway, my point is, using SCIENCE to look at Muslim education (or Christian education) the evidence from the WEST is that there is a superficial appearance of religious schools doing well but this does not take into account the social status of the parents who send kids to these places. Also there is plenty of evidence from right round the entire globe that SPERATE religious schools (by faith of adherants) creates war, genocides, bullying , death and global destruction. The secular state in Turkey arose, I suspect, in some part due to war guilt connected with killing millions of "christians" (Armenians) in death marches and also in Germany/France with the death of millions of poles, jews, communists and gypsies. In fact, the state of Israel would not exist now if it was not for religious bigotary nor would Kashmire exist as a "problem" and Pakistan would still be part of India and Ireland would be part of the UK. Religion has not caused all the worlds problems but it has not always been helpful. You talk about Muslim "rule" of science but your problem is that science tends to suggest that (a) too much religion is a distraction from scientific achievement and (b) the setting up of religious schools has a history of causing more violence not less.

Thus, in summary, assuming in a captialist enviroment the best always floats to the top, we will not expect islam (or any religion) to be "big" in science and general education - its a non starter.

[Netcurtains3]

This is a "Tory" Graph blog to back up my ascertions:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/5992368/Exclusive_over_60_per_cent_of_Britains_Muslim_scho ols_have_extremist_links_says_draft_report/

[sipraomer]

sipraomer,
I know the drink standing v sitting appears off topic but in reality it is on topic. A typical poor excuse for science is the site you picked - a school girl gives out hearsay to the gulliable about why its good to sit versus stand when drinking water. Her hearsay is connected to the distance the water falls from mouth to stomach and the wideth of the oesophagus. It is simple to disprove - get a ruler and measure the distance from your mouth to stomach standing or sitting (no slouching) - if they are more or less identical then she is talking cobblers (which she is). Also put a mirror to your mouth and look as you drink in both postures - its all nonsense!!! But worse than that, you want to promote "muslim" science but then use hearsay as evidence. tut tut tut.

Anyway, my point is, using SCIENCE to look at Muslim education (or Christian education) the evidence from the WEST is that there is a superficial appearance of religious schools doing well but this does not take into account the social status of the parents who send kids to these places. Also there is plenty of evidence from right round the entire globe that SPERATE religious schools (by faith of adherants) creates war, genocides, bullying , death and global destruction. The secular state in Turkey arose, I suspect, in some part due to war guilt connected with killing millions of "christians" (Armenians) in death marches and also in Germany/France with the death of millions of poles, jews, communists and gypsies. In fact, the state of Israel would not exist now if it was not for religious bigotary nor would Kashmire exist as a "problem" and Pakistan would still be part of India and Ireland would be part of the UK. Religion has not caused all the worlds problems but it has not always been helpful. You talk about Muslim "rule" of science but your problem is that science tends to suggest that (a) too much religion is a distraction from scientific achievement and (b) the setting up of religious schools has a history of causing more violence not less.

Thus, in summary, assuming in a captialist enviroment the best always floats to the top, we will not expect islam (or any religion) to be "big" in science and general education - its a non starter.

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090721234743AAImDu3

I can't find a jornal. But I believe you should discuss this thing with a local medical expert as some of the replies here say that Medical Experts say so that drinking water while standing is dangerous for stomach and creates kidney problems. I hope you read articles related to scientific miracles of Koran and change your mind about that. Visit www.harunyahya.com . EVen if there are no religous schools. the things non muslim powers are doing will create voilence in the muslim nations. There are many political and social issues in it. It is not related only to religous educational institutions. THat is a separate topic. You are only concerntrating that where the radicals are being groomed. But should you also consider that why these radicals are being created. You should observe the western foreign policy including your country's. What they are doing in the Muslim countries. What is the reality of 9/11. Observe the whole scenario. Then think again that why these radicals are being created. Now religous schools call this fighting Jihad. Without religous schools it will be called Fight for freedom. If Gandhi started a movement against the British Empire, he was not studying in a religous school. Like wise in the second world war where many millions of people died in the war, that was not also the creation of religous institutions. Even Hitler didn't killed the Jews because they were Jews. He killed them because they were responsible for Germany's weak economic conditions. They were controlling the economy and not giving chance to the christians in Germany to have jobs and freedom of economy. It was also a war for power. USA has been Russia's enemy not because of ideological difference. But because USA doesn't want Russia to be equal to her. Neither she wants China to rise. So this is a completely different discussion. First of all I am emphasizing again and agaiin but I guess you are not getting my point, that the present religous school system of Islam is not good. It is out dated and most of the people studying here are low IQ level people. But despite of the fact, you can't merely blame these religous schools for war and genocide. Was Massoulini , Stalin, MAo religous people. No, There genocides were based on political gains and the revolutions of their ideologies. Those who opposed them were killed.

Now Pakistan came into being because Muslims of India feared and feared righteously the mob rule of hindus. We can see the life of a common muslim in India who is harrased all the time. The Kashmire movement is also a more ethnic movement. Religion is a motivator because it encourages fight against the wrong. But calling Kashmire movement or Pakistan's movement and Partition of India a religious drama and a disastrous incident is false. India was divided because muslims were not being treated equally. And if India remained united a greater civil war would have started among muslims and hindus. Muslims of such population couldn't remain as a minority in India.

Third thing. You people call Freedom fighters as well as suicide bombers, as terrorists. We people call those who fight against the occupying armies freedom fighters and suicide bombers who target the public nevertheless the public is muslim or non muslim, of our country or of even the public of the country whose forces have occupied our country as terrorists. You call all the muslim fighters as terrorists cause of you national interest. We how ever differ in the opinion.

Finally I would like to remind you that many of the non muslim scientists acknowledge the scientific miracles of Koran. You should see this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gElU

When the very first main source of Islam i.e. Koran agrees with science unlike bible then how can Islamic Education System can't be modernized according to scientific standards. In which the morals and pieties of the society can also be taught and the divine scripture could also be consulted for future discoveries of science which are mentioned in the divine scripture like the present discoveries mentioned in a 1400 years old book.

There are two things.

1. Science
2. Scientific method, Research method, practical problem solving according to present day problems.

I emphasize in both. Our religion is flexible enough to fulfill the needs of all nations and all circumstances of all times.

However I admit that it is not apealing enough for those who want to see the thing with their own eyes. No example could be shown to the world for now that , Look this is an Islamic state, with interest free economy, with religion based scientific education, with healthy and productive society who also has not forgotten the values. With a profound and swift judicial system which could prevent crime before it happens at massive scale. An able government.

But people who believe in logic , who read the scripture through unbiased neutral mind. Who seek the truth. Will likely agree that Islam is a true religion which is for the betterment of mankind.

There are many confusions. As different scholars give different opinions. Sometimes for political gains. Sometimes honest opinions but irrational because of lack of modern education.

What is the Dillema. The problem is that this world's education has drifted from religous education. Your religion discourages science by executing Galileo because according to him sun revolves around the earth. Where as the bible says that all the heavenly bodies are static. The Koran already agrees that all the bodies of this universe are in motion. Then how can it be that a righteous Islamic goveronment will discourage science when our holy scripture encourages it and agrees with it. So far no scientific discovery mentioned in Koran is in dis agreement with the Koran as well as Sahih Hadith.


You are seeing Islamic government as the Pope rule in your country. Where as the situation is not like that. Islam is totally a different religion totally misrepresented by today's muslims because we have left our own religion ourselves. That is why we are suffering. You left your religion and it did good to you in the matters of science while it destroyed your social system. We left our religion and we are destroyed all together. Read the unbiased history when Europe was in the dark age and muslims were in the golden age. Your people came to the Arab countries and used to learn in their universities learning Science and medical, art and religion. At that time your streets were full of mud and we were the developed nation of that time. We ruled because we practiced on Islam. You rule because we left Islam.

[Netcurtains3]

I'll get back later,
but you might want to edit out the Yahoo Answer link - The reply that was accepted said "No Science" right at the very top.

[Netcurtains3]

sipraomer,
if you're interested in how the west sees the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists there is a good movie you might like:

"v for vendetta"

Originally written as anti-thatcher but the movie is re-written as anti-blair.
(not sure brackets work here - but if they do this is the link:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta_(film)


On a LOGICAL explanation of the difference, a "freedom fighter" is someone who fights for the right to have a vote. If they have a vote and that vote is not listened to then a freedom figher is someone who fights to get the majority view counted. then there is the freedom fighter for justice - someone who has been wrongly sent to prison fights to get his freedom.
Using that logic, the IRA had a mandate to fight originally, but once NI was set up and the South and North came to an agreement the IRA lost its mandate. However the death of Bobby Sands (and others) in prison gave some a strong sence of legal injustice which has since been rectified hence a peace accord.

[Netcurtains3]

just a note on the Jews - another reason why "islamic" education will not amount to a can of beans.
You said the "Jews" were behind the German fanancial collapse. Eg you said:
"He killed them because they were responsible for Germany's weak economic conditions"

Lets look at the facts.

1. There are people of the Jewish faith involved in the finance industry but in reality, even back then,
the people most involved in finance were the Swiss and Scots (Swiss are self evident but perhaps you did
not know that the Scots were (back then) behind HSBC (worlds largest bank), Standard Life, General Accident, HBOS, Royal Bank of Scotland,
Scottish Widows, Scottish Life, Clydesdale Bank (much of the stuff behind the current global collapse).
Hitler took ZERO action of any sort against the Swiss and never mentioned the Scottish bankers.

2. However most Scots, Jews and Swiss are not involved in finance - thus GENERALISING about them in this way is wrong. Hitler was
'a few bricks short of a full load'.

This hi-lights another problem with religion. The existance of and life of the people mentioned in Holy Texts is based on
history that says things like: "He killed them because they were responsible for Germany's weak economic conditions" - in other words
a load of nonsense. Did you know that the name Moses is mentioned a great deal more in the Quran than Mohammed and yet many HISTORICAL scholars
(if not nearly all) now believe that Moses did not exist, what we know HISTORICALLY about Jesus is next to nothing
and Mohammed might well be, for all we know for sure, not a name at all but a title - we might not know the man behind the title
at all - zero. Should SCIENTIFIC mankind be linked to three shadowy figures?
Can't you see that scientific advancement cannot be linked to religion its a non-starter.

I see what you are saying, you want muslims to be better educated, but I think that is the wrong way to look at it. It should be
you want PEOPLE GENERALLY (of all religions or none) to be better educated. It should not be put forward in an religious site, it should
be put forward in parliamentary debates concerning taxation and the people of those lands should then vote if they want to pay more taxes to
be better educated or not. That is how it should be. religion should not be part of the debate. As an aside the Fins are about the most
educated people on the planet (and pay the most taxes for it) but it does not make them happy. Its not a one sided debate. I'm pretty sure the
fins pay too much on education and miss out on REAL life.

[sipraomer]

sipraomer,
if you're interested in how the west sees the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists there is a good movie you might like:

"v for vendetta"

Originally written as anti-thatcher but the movie is re-written as anti-blair.
(not sure brackets work here - but if they do this is the link:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta_(film)


On a LOGICAL explanation of the difference, a "freedom fighter" is someone who fights for the right to have a vote. If they have a vote and that vote is not listened to then a freedom figher is someone who fights to get the majority view counted. then there is the freedom fighter for justice - someone who has been wrongly sent to prison fights to get his freedom.
Using that logic, the IRA had a mandate to fight originally, but once NI was set up and the South and North came to an agreement the IRA lost its mandate. However the death of Bobby Sands (and others) in prison gave some a strong sence of legal injustice which has since been rectified hence a peace accord.

I assume you think that Britian is the only country in this universe. Yes I have seen the movie. There is also a third form of freedom fighter. A person who fights against the occupying forces to liberate their country is called a freedom fighter too. Life is not all about democracy and votes, When the enemy has occupied your country, you fight for your life and not for your political system. Fighting against your own government is a different issue. Fighting with the alien forces is altogether a different one. Both who fight against one's own government as well as the aliens are called freedom fighters according to Islam. When US was Afghans ally in the war against Russia, the same hollywood called these people Mujahideen or Freedom fighters. So my friend, Politician and Media always speaks for the interest of the country , even if it is a lie. When they were with the US, they were good. When they went against them, they became radical extremists and the whole Muslim world became fundamentalists and blah blah blah!.

When the British attacked on America, they called Red Indians as terrorists. Putin in Russia when attacked in Chechnia , he called the muslim population there terrorists. So common folk is always fooled by governments and media. It is a kind of intellectual dictatorship.

[sipraomer]

I'll get back later,
but you might want to edit out the Yahoo Answer link - The reply that was accepted said "No Science" right at the very top.

I am not interested in accepted answer. I am pointing out many of the answers. Now I am not a medical expert my self. This topic needs research. You may ask a doctor without mentioning Islam so that he could give an unbiased opinion about it.

[sipraomer]

just a note on the Jews - another reason why "islamic" education will not amount to a can of beans.
You said the "Jews" were behind the German fanancial collapse. Eg you said:
"He killed them because they were responsible for Germany's weak economic conditions"

Lets look at the facts.

1. There are people of the Jewish faith involved in the finance industry but in reality, even back then,
the people most involved in finance were the Swiss and Scots (Swiss are self evident but perhaps you did
not know that the Scots were (back then) behind HSBC (worlds largest bank), Standard Life, General Accident, HBOS, Royal Bank of Scotland,
Scottish Widows, Scottish Life, Clydesdale Bank (much of the stuff behind the current global collapse).
Hitler took ZERO action of any sort against the Swiss and never mentioned the Scottish bankers.

2. However most Scots, Jews and Swiss are not involved in finance - thus GENERALISING about them in this way is wrong. Hitler was
'a few bricks short of a full load'.

This hi-lights another problem with religion. The existance of and life of the people mentioned in Holy Texts is based on
history that says things like: "He killed them because they were responsible for Germany's weak economic conditions" - in other words
a load of nonsense. Did you know that the name Moses is mentioned a great deal more in the Quran than Mohammed and yet many HISTORICAL scholars
(if not nearly all) now believe that Moses did not exist, what we know HISTORICALLY about Jesus is next to nothing
and Mohammed might well be, for all we know for sure, not a name at all but a title - we might not know the man behind the title
at all - zero. Should SCIENTIFIC mankind be linked to three shadowy figures?
Can't you see that scientific advancement cannot be linked to religion its a non-starter.

I see what you are saying, you want muslims to be better educated, but I think that is the wrong way to look at it. It should be
you want PEOPLE GENERALLY (of all religions or none) to be better educated. It should not be put forward in an religious site, it should
be put forward in parliamentary debates concerning taxation and the people of those lands should then vote if they want to pay more taxes to
be better educated or not. That is how it should be. religion should not be part of the debate. As an aside the Fins are about the most
educated people on the planet (and pay the most taxes for it) but it does not make them happy. Its not a one sided debate. I'm pretty sure the
fins pay too much on education and miss out on REAL life.


"This hi-lights another problem with religion. The existance of and life of the people mentioned in Holy Texts is based on
history that says things like: "He killed them because they were responsible for Germany's weak economic conditions" - in other words
a load of nonsense. "


Hahahhahha! Lol! I didn't take it from religion or the Koran or anything. I took it from the english translation of Hitler's Biography and I know that Jews reject this accusation of His. They give only this explanation that Jews have nothing to do with Gernmany's inner weaknesses etc etc. Where as what I have heard from other sources besides this book is that Jews were the economic elite and were against the catholic christians of Germany.

Secondly you mentioned History. A lot of historical account has been lost. The Koran has mentioned various times about the Archeological sites we find today. One of them is the story of Noah. His nation disobeyed him. DIDn't accept God. God told Noah to build a ship in which only his followers and one pair of every animal will come. There was a huge flood aftwards and all his nation was destroyed. That ship can be found in Southern Turkey. Then you mentioned about Moses. The man who opposed him (Pharaoh) his mummy can be found in Egypt for a lesson to the mankind. This has been mentioned in Koran as well. So proofs and signs are every where for those who see, and think.

By religion I only mean Islam. Why Islam shouldn't be part of the debate in the parliament when Islam itself gives the laws of the parliament. That all human beings are equal in the eyes of God. No one is superior on the basis of race, richness, nation or power. Only those are superior who are pious.

Secondly it is Koran which says " Consult others while deciding your decisions".

I tell you there is a huge defect in democracy in which the public rules.

Science tells us that wine is dangerous for health. WIne also is the reason for many car accidents in USA. thousands of killings happen because of this. You know what? Wine was declared once illegal in the constitution of USA. You know ! What happened next?

There was such a massive protest from the public that the congress had to withdraw that bill.

No matter what Nectar. No matter what. You will have to admit that in today's world. Secular states have failed to maintain the social and ethical balance in the society. The family unit has been destroyed. Marriages don't work any more. Because of vast divorce rate children are suffering. Muslim nations are also following the west. Divorce rates are also increasing there.

Religion is the only motivator which can teach and discipline the society in ethics. This is the fear of afterlife which will eventually prevent us from crime if our faith is strong on God and the life here after.

THis world's judgement, and law enforcing agencies are not perfect. Many criminals because of bribe or defects in the judicial system even in the west and progressive nations, are walking freely. Despite of democracy and advanced technology, there is a high crime rate in the west.

This crime can only be controlled by three things.

Interest free based economy.

Revival of the family system by reducing material wishes and concentrating and giving more time to the family.

Fear of the life after death that we have to pay for our sins even if we prevent this world's punishment.

I opened this thread. Because I wanted to point out. That we are not practicing on Islam. You are one of those who can't be convinced by logic or debate. You want to see the practical demonstration and its result. Then only you can be convinced.

That is why I started this thread. Most of the non muslims today say , Give us proof, Show us how it is. This is the main problem. Secondly I advise you to read Koran. Without explanation and without any scholar's narrative. Then join all of the pieces. Then think rationally. But keep an intention in your mind that you are trying to understand its message. I hope you will better understand Islam like that. Un fortunately, I can't advise you a good hadith translation as it has been translated by misguided muslims. These translations have some defects.

[Netcurtains3]

you said:
"against the catholic christians of Germany"
In reply I have posted the link many many times - its a picture of every single constituency in Germany and how they voted in the 1920s/30s. In it every single constituency in the land that had a Catholic majority did NOT vote for hitler.....

You see what I'm getting at? You are not using any of your academic education apart from good spelling..... You want to promote science but reject its findings. Germany was in a worst state (ORIGINALLY) than the UK, France and Holland because it had to pay HUGE war damages to the UK , France and Holland (it was the West that did the damage to Germany not the people of hte Jewish faith). Once these were lifted its decline was on par with everyone else - in fact it did better.

It is not valid to fight an occupying army "IF" they are (and the evidence is that they are) giving the people the vote to make their own minds up. Eg the Americans in Korea - It is South Korea that is Free and the North a slave.
The Red Indians in America were the allies of the British against the Americans, in fact many of the fled to Canada. However lets not concentrate on pretty ancient history, nowadays many states in the USA now have MAJORITY hispanic populations (a native "indian" population to North America) and in a short while I think even California will be hispanic again. So your anti-indian arugment will have to be put to Indian politicans ... lol.

In your "wonderful malaysia" you do know that Malaysia has native peoples and the Malays are "recent" arrivals to Malaysia (15th century). If you are anti-America because of Indians then perhaps you should investigate what the "muslim" malays have a history of doing with the ORIGINAL natives of Malaysia. How many states in Malaysia now have majority "Original" inhabitants?

[Netcurtains3]

sipraomer,
I should point out I read a few pages of the Quran, it reads to me (no delibrate offence) as gibberish . Take it further, suppose an Eskimo read the Koran and noted that you could not eat animals that crawl. He would not be able to eat Seals and thus he would die. To an Eskimo the whole idea would be absurd. Or a Finn - how could they give up pork - they appear to eat nothing else (I know Sister Hard said "fish" but actually the Baltic is dead and many of the lakes in Finland are poison - can you be sure of the fish source or is it safer to eat pork?)

You go on about the crime rate in the west but actually crime reporting has changed over time - if go back to "victorian values" (which you seem to be suggesting) the crime rate was probably worse then.

You mention problems of alcohol but it also has some medical benefits, the UK with perhaps the worst drink problem in the world has about the lowest car accident record of any country in the world!!!!

- I know that the middle east car drivers are meant to be particularly bad. So there does not appear to be a clear cut co-relation to the amount drunk in a country to the number of road deaths - if you use international comparisons as a guide (there actually is a co-relation but obviously there are other important factors besides drink - certainly never drink and drive).

Interest has allowed economic growth and progress to occur. Without it we would all be living in caves. However, there is an environmental case to suggest that progress destorys the planet so perhaps poverty is best in which case interest is wrong.
Old fashioned families only work if there is enough house work to do. Modern houses need little upkeep (compared to pre dishwasher, pre-washing machines, pre-central heating, times) - the house wife as a full time job is a defunct occupation.

Its also worth noting that Europeans have been in America since 986AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland

[Netcurtains3]

ps,
you have also lost the plot with talk of Noah's Ark - ROFL and a mummy in Egypt - come on man are you a 5 year old - it is slightly offensive to me that you bring such silly ideas to me as if I would believe them.

In the US the American Electorate VOTED to ban drink (it was in the MANIFESTO) and then the American Electorate VOTED to reintroduce it (it was in the MANIFESTO)....

The people decide by voting for the MANIFESTOs of the parties that they like. The parties then try to introduce in law the promises they made in their manifestos. Often they do not manage to stick to their promises (for various reasons) and the electorate (after 4 years) listen to their excuses, and if they are no good, or the other side has produced a better Manifesto they get kicked out.

Surely you read the manifestos of the parties you like?

[sipraomer]

you said:
"against the catholic christians of Germany"
In reply I have posted the link many many times - its a picture of every single constituency in Germany and how they voted in the 1920s/30s. In it every single constituency in the land that had a Catholic majority did NOT vote for hitler.....

You see what I'm getting at? You are not using any of your academic education apart from good spelling..... You want to promote science but reject its findings. Germany was in a worst state (ORIGINALLY) than the UK, France and Holland because it had to pay HUGE war damages to the UK , France and Holland (it was the West that did the damage to Germany not the people of hte Jewish faith). Once these were lifted its decline was on par with everyone else - in fact it did better.

It is not valid to fight an occupying army "IF" they are (and the evidence is that they are) giving the people the vote to make their own minds up. Eg the Americans in Korea - It is South Korea that is Free and the North a slave.
The Red Indians in America were the allies of the British against the Americans, in fact many of the fled to Canada. However lets not concentrate on pretty ancient history, nowadays many states in the USA now have MAJORITY hispanic populations (a native "indian" population to North America) and in a short while I think even California will be hispanic again. So your anti-indian arugment will have to be put to Indian politicans ... lol.

In your "wonderful malaysia" you do know that Malaysia has native peoples and the Malays are "recent" arrivals to Malaysia (15th century). If you are anti-America because of Indians then perhaps you should investigate what the "muslim" malays have a history of doing with the ORIGINAL natives of Malaysia. How many states in Malaysia now have majority "Original" inhabitants?

Now my friend there are many things to consider. I have not read much about it but Hitler mentions of a consipracy of Jews against Germany at that time. A Treaty of Verssailles or something, I don't know. Sorry if you are yourself a Jew, if I have offended you in any way. But it seems that your American friends themselves say, some of them that Condoleza Rice made the 9/11 lie and wanted to attack muslims. And she is a jew, i guess.

On the other hand what Israel is doing to Palestine, all know it but are quiet. Shame on so called civilized nations.

All the Jew controlled companies including Pepsi are supporting the Zionist campaign against Muslims.

On 9/11 4000 jews in Pentagon were absent.

Now I don't know what views you have about this but there is some truth in it.

Ok if there was no such conspiracy then Why Hitler hated Jews so much. Because Hitler was a christian? Christians are others also , they never killed the jews. Why Hitler then?

[sipraomer]

you said:
"against the catholic christians of Germany"
In reply I have posted the link many many times - its a picture of every single constituency in Germany and how they voted in the 1920s/30s. In it every single constituency in the land that had a Catholic majority did NOT vote for hitler.....

You see what I'm getting at? You are not using any of your academic education apart from good spelling..... You want to promote science but reject its findings. Germany was in a worst state (ORIGINALLY) than the UK, France and Holland because it had to pay HUGE war damages to the UK , France and Holland (it was the West that did the damage to Germany not the people of hte Jewish faith). Once these were lifted its decline was on par with everyone else - in fact it did better.

It is not valid to fight an occupying army "IF" they are (and the evidence is that they are) giving the people the vote to make their own minds up. Eg the Americans in Korea - It is South Korea that is Free and the North a slave.
The Red Indians in America were the allies of the British against the Americans, in fact many of the fled to Canada. However lets not concentrate on pretty ancient history, nowadays many states in the USA now have MAJORITY hispanic populations (a native "indian" population to North America) and in a short while I think even California will be hispanic again. So your anti-indian arugment will have to be put to Indian politicans ... lol.

In your "wonderful malaysia" you do know that Malaysia has native peoples and the Malays are "recent" arrivals to Malaysia (15th century). If you are anti-America because of Indians then perhaps you should investigate what the "muslim" malays have a history of doing with the ORIGINAL natives of Malaysia. How many states in Malaysia now have majority "Original" inhabitants?

Now my friend there are many things to consider. I have not read much about it but Hitler mentions of a consipracy of Jews against Germany at that time. A Treaty of Verssailles or something, I don't know. Sorry if you are yourself a Jew, if I have offended you in any way. But it seems that your American friends themselves say, some of them that Condoleza Rice made the 9/11 lie and wanted to attack muslims. And she is a jew, i guess.

On the other hand what Israel is doing to Palestine, all know it but are quiet. Shame on so called civilized nations.

All the Jew controlled companies including Pepsi are supporting the Zionist campaign against Muslims.

On 9/11 4000 jews in Pentagon were absent.

Now I don't know what views you have about this but there is some truth in it.

Ok if there was no such conspiracy then Why Hitler hated Jews so much. Because Hitler was a christian? Christians are others also , they never killed the jews. Why Hitler then?

Thirdly there is a rule in Islam. A corrupt muslim ruler will be handled by muslims. No non muslim can come and just fight for demolishing the corrupt government. Because Non muslims will promote their religion or should I say their way of life.

It is a fact that America is killing many innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq was not divided. American came killed and divided Iraq in two parts. American caused a civil war in Iraq. American are killing Afghani citizens. America is creating more fuel for terrorists by killing the innocent civilians. Was Saddam Husaain not better than USA who killed some thousands. Where as USA has killed 3 million so far and who knows how many more she will kill?

Is this what is democracy all about. Wake up Necturian. Your governments are making the things worse. They are waking up the sleeping dragon. Your diplomats will agree with me. It is against your favor that you people are waging war against us. You are waking the demon. You are waking the demon.

The West is making a foolish mistake. The same mistake Soviet Union wanted to make

Some wise people in our country say that Bush is good. Not because he is fighting terrorism but because he is waking up the Muslims.

This is a political mistake. Wether you admit it or not.

[sipraomer]

ps,
you have also lost the plot with talk of Noah's Ark - ROFL and a mummy in Egypt - come on man are you a 5 year old - it is slightly offensive to me that you bring such silly ideas to me as if I would believe them.

In the US the American Electorate VOTED to ban drink (it was in the MANIFESTO) and then the American Electorate VOTED to reintroduce it (it was in the MANIFESTO)....

The people decide by voting for the MANIFESTOs of the parties that they like. The parties then try to introduce in law the promises they made in their manifestos. Often they do not manage to stick to their promises (for various reasons) and the electorate (after 4 years) listen to their excuses, and if they are no good, or the other side has produced a better Manifesto they get kicked out.

Surely you read the manifestos of the parties you like?

Both of these things are living proof. Both of these things are mentioned in the Koran. Both of these things were not discovered at the time of revelation. Both of these things besides others were found by archaeologists. Even a five year old would be convinced after reading the Koran, why are not you?

Changing or making the law for your own interests and not for the betterment of the society and being lazy is not the right way. Surely you can understand what point I am trying to make. Aren't you?

[Netcurtains3]

Hitler is ex-communicated (it was a Catholic law AT THE TIME that if any Catholic voted for hitler they would be ex-commicated hence so few catholics voted for hitler).

Hitler was mad. He was a vegetarian, lover of hindu symbols and arian myths - a wacky dude.

If you take the religion away from the situations in Palastine its clear that they shuold only be one DEMOCRATIC country in which both communities share the tax and live happily together.

You talk of rich Jews but actually Israel only has a GNP on par with PORTUGAL - hardly richcontrollers of anything

[Netcurtains3]

.....also "am I jewish"....

That really depends on how you define Jewish. To me a Jew is someone who is of the Jewish religion. If they are not religious or change religion then they are not Jewish - to me. For example, to you, perhaps, Disraeli (19th century UK Prime Minister) was Jewish but to me his religion was Anglican and his nationality was British. Did you know that it was Disraeli who was dead against attacking the Muslims of the Middle East and fought a bitter campaign against Gladstone on this issue. Gladstone, like Tony Blair was a "Do Gooder" Liberal and Disraeli (like David Cameron a Tory) who was all for staying out of the Middle East. So how does that tie in with all your mad cap theories?

Most of my genes come from Ireland. My religion (or lack of it), Catholic+Atheist+Agnostic also comes from there. However I am 100% British.
If you look at top three richest people in the world one is an atheist, one an agnostic and one a Catholic (Gates, Buffett and Slim).... Does that mean I am in alliance with these three men? Perhaps in a weird way it does. Where does this leave your Jewish conspiracy theory? What about winners of Nobel Prizes? The Hungarians (Europeans but distantly related to Turks and Chinese) win more nobel prizes than any other people - does this make a Hungarian conspiracy theory?

For sure I can see that you do not like the state of Israel existing - you forget that we ALLl would like to see a "happy" solution for all the children and parents of that area. To my mind if they all became agnostic it would solve the entire problem. Lets put politics mixed with religion into the dustbin of history where it belongs.

Did you know the ancient arabs bought the Guitar (originally called or derived from Sita I think) from India and it evolved slowly (via spain) into Guitar. Wouldn't it be nice if Arab peoples once more sat on camels holding guitars and singing rock songs as they travelled the moon lit deserts to their girl friends as they once did hundreds of years ago instead of thinking bad thoughts about people who hold a religion called jewish (which if you think about it is a pretty nutty religion - a belief in arks and noah and moses crossing the nile - its a load of balony - let them believe it if they want to - its pure nonsense - move on.

[sister_Harb]

Yes; Jews are just only religion, not a race as zionists claims.

Where you two are walking? What this all has to do with original issue?

:confused:

[sipraomer]

Hitler is ex-communicated (it was a Catholic law AT THE TIME that if any Catholic voted for hitler they would be ex-commicated hence so few catholics voted for hitler).

Hitler was mad. He was a vegetarian, lover of hindu symbols and arian myths - a wacky dude.

If you take the religion away from the situations in Palastine its clear that they shuold only be one DEMOCRATIC country in which both communities share the tax and live happily together.

You talk of rich Jews but actually Israel only has a GNP on par with PORTUGAL - hardly richcontrollers of anything

They can never live happily. Do you think that America is a christian state who is waging war on Iraq and Afghan for religious enmity against Muslims?

America is a secular state and is waging war against Iraq for oil and to secure air bases in Afghanistan to fight China in future as well as to denuclearize Pakistan in order to clear the path for Indians so that they could also fight with China.

Jews are united and have suffered for thousands of years and have been humiliated. They are united. IN the USA there are many rich jews controlling the industry. Many of them are controlling the Media. Also they are controlling the CIA and other intelligence agencies. Their orders come from Israel not the American government.

[sipraomer]

Hitler is ex-communicated (it was a Catholic law AT THE TIME that if any Catholic voted for hitler they would be ex-commicated hence so few catholics voted for hitler).

Hitler was mad. He was a vegetarian, lover of hindu symbols and arian myths - a wacky dude.

If you take the religion away from the situations in Palastine its clear that they shuold only be one DEMOCRATIC country in which both communities share the tax and live happily together.

You talk of rich Jews but actually Israel only has a GNP on par with PORTUGAL - hardly richcontrollers of anything

What you said about Hitler is a weak arguement. Why he killed Jews? My question remains un answered.

[sipraomer]

.....also "am I jewish"....

That really depends on how you define Jewish. To me a Jew is someone who is of the Jewish religion. If they are not religious or change religion then they are not Jewish - to me. For example, to you, perhaps, Disraeli (19th century UK Prime Minister) was Jewish but to me his religion was Anglican and his nationality was British. Did you know that it was Disraeli who was dead against attacking the Muslims of the Middle East and fought a bitter campaign against Gladstone on this issue. Gladstone, like Tony Blair was a "Do Gooder" Liberal and Disraeli (like David Cameron a Tory) who was all for staying out of the Middle East. So how does that tie in with all your mad cap theories?

Most of my genes come from Ireland. My religion (or lack of it), Catholic+Atheist+Agnostic also comes from there. However I am 100% British.
If you look at top three richest people in the world one is an atheist, one an agnostic and one a Catholic (Gates, Buffett and Slim).... Does that mean I am in alliance with these three men? Perhaps in a weird way it does. Where does this leave your Jewish conspiracy theory? What about winners of Nobel Prizes? The Hungarians (Europeans but distantly related to Turks and Chinese) win more nobel prizes than any other people - does this make a Hungarian conspiracy theory?

For sure I can see that you do not like the state of Israel existing - you forget that we ALLl would like to see a "happy" solution for all the children and parents of that area. To my mind if they all became agnostic it would solve the entire problem. Lets put politics mixed with religion into the dustbin of history where it belongs.

Did you know the ancient arabs bought the Guitar (originally called or derived from Sita I think) from India and it evolved slowly (via spain) into Guitar. Wouldn't it be nice if Arab peoples once more sat on camels holding guitars and singing rock songs as they travelled the moon lit deserts to their girl friends as they once did hundreds of years ago instead of thinking bad thoughts about people who hold a religion called jewish (which if you think about it is a pretty nutty religion - a belief in arks and noah and moses crossing the nile - its a load of balony - let them believe it if they want to - its pure nonsense - move on.

First of all I didn't say that you are Jewish. Read with open eyes. I asked that are you a jew? Secondly there is a difference between you people and jews. Britian has an influence of christianity but it is 40% secular because of your political and social system. America is a totally secular system. Israel is a jew state. Jews are different from Christians. Christians are today united for economic sake. They are not strong in their religion. Jews are strong in their religion and they have an enmity against the Muslims.

If you deeply study Islam, and Jewism, you will find that before Muslims , Jews represented the religion of Islam and were the beloved of God. Moses, Abrahim, jesus, many prophets came to the Jews. But they were arrogant and didn't listen to God. They thought that they are the beloved ones and they will be forgiven by God no matter what they do. God gave the leadership to Muslims i.e. the Ummah of Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him. Now Jews have this enmity against Muslims that why we have been given the leadership. This racist jealousy and religious jealousy ignites hatred in them for us.

Jewism is more near to Islam than Christianity. Jewish Prayer is more like a muslim prayer. Jews slaughter eatable animals in the same way Muslims do.

Their only enmity is jealousy against us.

Yeh Christian or Jewish politics is able to be thrown in dustbin as it has destroyed science and society and order in your countries previously.

But society ,ethics and politics and righteous flourished in the realm of Islam.
So Islamic Politics should remain and be practiced in its true form. I have explained in detail and if you re read it and research on what I say , I guess you will be convinced. How ever if you want to argue and don't want to understand or don't agree because of the propaganda of your media, I will not further the discussion.

[sipraomer]

sipraomer,
I should point out I read a few pages of the Quran, it reads to me (no delibrate offence) as gibberish . Take it further, suppose an Eskimo read the Koran and noted that you could not eat animals that crawl. He would not be able to eat Seals and thus he would die. To an Eskimo the whole idea would be absurd. Or a Finn - how could they give up pork - they appear to eat nothing else (I know Sister Hard said "fish" but actually the Baltic is dead and many of the lakes in Finland are poison - can you be sure of the fish source or is it safer to eat pork?)


Koran has also said to preserve the environment and not to damage. So who made those seas poisonous. Like wise Koran also says that if you find a place not suitable then go find another place, migrate there and find good lawful food. The science finds that pork is dangerous for health. All the poisons of other animals like snake can be diminished by sweat. But pork becomes a part of your body and it creates diseases.

Now you are ignoring scientific findings and just using your academic education in good spellings. To be very frank and with no offense , I find your logic and arguments gibberish.


You go on about the crime rate in the west but actually crime reporting has changed over time - if go back to "victorian values" (which you seem to be suggesting) the crime rate was probably worse then.


Because they were Victorian values not Islamic values.


You mention problems of alcohol but it also has some medical benefits, the UK with perhaps the worst drink problem in the world has about the lowest car accident record of any country in the world!!!!

Quran clearly states that you like those things which have small benefits but larger problems and larger risks. Is it the course of wise?


- I know that the middle east car drivers are meant to be particularly bad. So there does not appear to be a clear cut co-relation to the amount drunk in a country to the number of road deaths - if you use international comparisons as a guide (there actually is a co-relation but obviously there are other important factors besides drink - certainly never drink and drive).


I think you should visit this site and educate yourself first before commenting.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_die_in_car_accidents_yearly_due_to _alcohol

http://ezinearticles.com/?Alcohol-Related-Car-Accidents&id=302154


Interest has allowed economic growth and progress to occur. Without it we would all be living in caves. However, there is an environmental case to suggest that progress destorys the planet so perhaps poverty is best in which case interest is wrong.
Old fashioned families only work if there is enough house work to do. Modern houses need little upkeep (compared to pre dishwasher, pre-washing machines, pre-central heating, times) - the house wife as a full time job is a defunct occupation.

Interest is an enemy for the poor. It makes rich richer and poor poorer. IF you hear Bill Clinton speeches he also suggests and it has been his policy to take more taxes from the rich and lesser taxes from the middle class so that it could be invested to provide more jobs.

Islam gives the golden rule. Don't pay the interest and instead pay the tax and spend it on poor to accomodate them.

Those who can't pay interest are burdened for paying further interest giving them no choice but mortgage. Increasing the risk for those poor folk either to die or to commit crime. If in UK zakat is regulated and economy is interest free then Job less allowances will not be needed and it will lift the heavy burden over UK's economy.


Its also worth noting that Europeans have been in America since 986AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland


Perhaps you should visit this site for further detail upon interest based economy.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16133084/-Causes-of-Recession-of-Economy-Curse-of-Interest

http://openmindrequired.com/blog/2008/06/the-real-reason-for-inflation-and-deflation/

[sipraomer]

Swine Flue because of Pork

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/tag/pork/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKM9xYfD2XM&feature=related

[sipraomer]

Living proof by a non muslim about Pork

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFW4-1QL6sg&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[sipraomer]

This will be the end of dicussion cause Nectar your argument is based on what your Media tells you. You have no real knowledge of our religion. So I will not further discuss.

[Netcurtains3]

goodbye.
I have enjoyed the discussion. It has helped me to understand the view of someone from Pakistan and for that I am gratful.

If I leave you with one thought it is this, you know in your heart that Noah's ark et al did not exist but IMHO you do not want to accept this truth. As you get older and older people tend to get wiser and wiser. Remember that.

[sipraomer]

Good bye my friend and I would leave a counter thought for you.

If you read the book of Charles Darwin, you will read his letter to his friend that the theory of darvinism has no reality. He created it for the ease of categorization of species because of his study.

And deeper down there you have to ponder on the fact that nothing happens by it self. An action has an equal and opposite reaction. So Athieism is against science. And religion supports science. God said, world created. God acted world came into being as a reaction. Atheism is a lie to promote your cause to run away from christianity which was disastrous for science and your progressive well being.