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Matrix 07-09-2002 21:02

New Testament quote
 
Assalaamu alaikum,

I posted a response about Jesus who in the New Testament who says
"...bring them before me & slay them..." as provided by Servant of Allah.

Boy did I receive a response. They were very quick in informing me that this was a parable that Jesus was using to explain a concept.

They are so adamant about the Quran being violent & quote it all the time about how it promotes violence...yet when I posted this they were taken aback & explained how mistaken I was. How could I possibly post such nonsense? How could I be sooooo wrong about Jesus? How could I post such a thing & take it out of context when I am not a Christian & know not what I am reading?

Its ok for them to misquote & take the Quranic verses out of context, but they did not appreciate it when I did the same with the Bible & Jesus.

Very curious I thought....

Thank you Servant of Allah for providing that quote as the "leader of the pack" over on the other board is always going on about how Jesus never said any remarks about violence & that the New Testament is about Peace & Harmony only. Yet when I brought that verse from the Bible up they reacted instantly.

I also asked them if the God of the Bible is the same as the God of the Quran. They claim that they are totally different entities. I have never thought this & was surprised that they felt this way.

Any thoughts on this matter? Is the God of the Bible the same as the God of the Quran?

God is God in my view.

We also had an exchange about the OT & NT. One of them was lecturing me about how the God of the Bible is peaceful & not at all violent in the NT & how this was in contrast to Allah in the Quran. I asked them if the OT God was the same character as the NT God & they all said yes. Yet, when I asked about how similar the OT God is to the God of the Quran they denied this. Apparently the violence mentioned in the OT is not relevant to them. I guess it goes back to the final comment that they believe the God of the two books are not related or the same.

Lulua 07-09-2002 21:12

Assalaamu alaikum.

Know that this dialogue was going on between u and another bro, br. matrix...but thought that I would remind u of some verses from the Quran.

Firstly, in having dialogue with non-muslims...u have to be tolerant of their claims (no matter how false) to an extent so as not to be insulting to them. This is in order that they should not respond in like (insulting of the Quran). Patience and tolerance is a key in dialogue and dawa.

Something that we all have to work at constantly.

As well, remember the verse: 'you cannot guide those whom you love, but Allah guides whom He wills'...???

Very important for us all to remember at times like these...dialogues and confrontations with non-muslims. There are times when you can only convey just so much...and as long as you have done your duty in conveying the message in it's truth...then there is little more (if anything) that you can do. The rest is up to the individual concerned...and the guidance of Allah.

As well, there comes a time, in such confrontations, when it is best to reply:

'to you your religion and to me mine'

And then let them alone. State what you know, and what you desire to point out, and then let them be. For those seeking the truth, Allah will not lead them astray. It will come to them eventually. But for those seeking to diguise and conceal the truth, then their punishment will be awaiting for them...and double for those to whom has come the message.

May Allah guide us all to that which is best.

Lulua.

lummirick 07-09-2002 22:30

Peace be with you, all virtue comes from God alone. Even the Lord God most high is attacked by those who cannot control their tongues. Those who rush to defend their own cultural type, often forget truth and justice..and become hipocrites at any percieved provocation...and so more misunderstanding is brought into the world. According to the Christian book, Jesus was accused of being in league with Satan, by some of those who wished him harm...and we hear this kind of vexating spirit often in the world today. Ignorance is not limited to one type of people...all people everywhere carry forth their share of ignorance...which also leads to intollerance and racism. Mohammed, blessed be his name has been accussed of the same by others, and of course there are hate mongers and misguided individuals that believe it is possible to to call Allah a false God, or vice versa.....God the Merciful has all manner of abilities to do as he wills, beyond our comprehension or the sad musings of ego/ethocentric people. There is but one God, and Mohamed is his prophet...this does not contradict anything spoken in the Bible. In fact, decent God-fearing people have been wrongfully attacked althrough history, just as have the heathens. Agression and wrong doing are a universal problem, and begin with unkind thought, and loss of patience, and unwillingness to set right misunderstanding. The Bible also says that those who are quick to show anger, have a demonic quality. According to that observation...many of us have demonic qualities...God preserve us from those traits.

servant_of_Allah 08-09-2002 01:34

Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah Dear Brother Matrix !

I apologize that i haven't finished replying to the article which you asked us to help you out with. I will try to finish replying, if i can, Insha Allah (Allah Willing).

Meanwhile, i did wish to address a few points that the Christians had raised at the site where you're discussing topics with them.

The point where these Christians talked about "moon worshipping", here are some articles to refute the lies that these Christians spread :

http://etori.tripod.com/moongod.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...h/moongod.html

http://users.erols.com/ameen/crescent1.htm

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/Polemics/moongod.htm

Wassalamu Alaykum,
servant of Allah.
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Matrix 08-09-2002 03:38

Thank you
 
Thank you all for your responses! Thanks especially for those links regarding "moon worhsip."

I have been blessed to come across this site.

May Allah's will guide us all.

Matrix.

Matrix 08-09-2002 03:48

Thanks for the reminder
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Lulua
Assalaamu alaikum.

Know that this dialogue was going on between u and another bro, br. matrix...but thought that I would remind u of some verses from the Quran.



I would appreciate any & all viewpoints regarding my posts.

Quote:

Firstly, in having dialogue with non-muslims...u have to be tolerant of their claims (no matter how false) to an extent so as not to be insulting to them. This is in order that they should not respond in like (insulting of the Quran). Patience and tolerance is a key in dialogue and dawa.
Yes...thank you for reminding me. Tolerance I think I have, patience...well, that is a whole other story! At first, I tried to respond with patience, but the things they post(ed) are so outrageous & insulting that it is difficult to not respond in kind.

However, I will keep that Quranic verse in mind in the future.

Quote:

Very important for us all to remember at times like these...dialogues and confrontations with non-muslims. There are times when you can only convey just so much...and as long as you have done your duty in conveying the message in it's truth...then there is little more (if anything) that you can do. The rest is up to the individual concerned...and the guidance of Allah.

As well, there comes a time, in such confrontations, when it is best to reply:

'to you your religion and to me mine'

And then let them alone. State what you know, and what you desire to point out, and then let them be. For those seeking the truth, Allah will not lead them astray. It will come to them eventually. But for those seeking to diguise and conceal the truth, then their punishment will be awaiting for them...and double for those to whom has come the message.

May Allah guide us all to that which is best.

Lulua.
Thanks again Lulua. I appreciate your input.

servant_of_Allah 11-09-2002 03:12

Does Islam Promote Violence?
 
Does Islam Promote Violence?
By: Javeed Akhter


The evangelist Franklin Graham and the conservative Christian commentator, Pat Robertson's assertion that Islam exhorts its followers to be violent against non-Muslims, are only two of the most prominent voices that are part of a rising cacophony of vicious criticism of the Qur'an. One can read and hear a whole range of negative opinions about this issue in the media. Few have taken an in depth look at the issue. What does the Qur'an actually say about violence against non-Muslims? Does it say what Robertson and Graham claim it does? Does it say that it is the religious duty of Muslims to kill infidels? But first some basic principles about reading and understanding the Qur'an. After all, studying the Qur'an is not exactly like reading Harry Potter. Like any other scripture there are rules that may be followed for a proper understanding of the text.

Muslim scholars suggest that those who read the Qur'an should keep at a minimum the following principles in mind. First, the reader should have an awareness of the inner coherence in the Qur'an. As the verses are connected to each other, the reader should study at the least, the preceding and following verses for a sense of the immediate context. Also the reader should look at all of the verses that deal with the same subject in the book. These are frequently scattered all over the scripture. The indices provided in many of the exegeses of the Qur'an as well as the books of concordance allow the reader to get this information relatively easily. Often there is information available about the occasion of revelation, the historical context, of a particular verse. This requires at least a cursory knowledge of prophet Muhammad's life. As Professor Fazlur Rahman of the University of Chicago would frequently point out, the Qur'an, in part at least, may be looked upon as a running commentary on the mission of Prophet Muhammad. Finally Qur'anic scholars advise us to analyze the way Prophet implemented a particular directive in a verse of the Qur'an in his own life and ministry. For all Muslims Prophet Muhammad was the ultimate exemplar of the Qur'an and its living embodiment.

Let us examine the verses in question with these exegetical principles in mind. One of the verses says "put down the polytheists wherever you find them, and capture them and beleaguer them and lie in wait for them at every ambush" (Koran 9:5). The immediate context, as Muhammad Asad (The Message Of The Qur'an) points out, is that of a "war in progress" and not a general directive. It was an attempt to motivate Muslims in self-defense.

Muslims were given permission to defend themselves around the time of Prophet Muhammad's migration from Makkah, where he grew up, to the city of Madinah where he spent the rest of his life. This occurred in the 13th year of his 23-year mission. The danger to Muslims in Makkah at this time was extreme and there was a real possibility of their total eradication. They were permitted to fight back in self-defense against those who violently oppressed them. "Permission is given (to fight) those who have taken up arms against you wrongfully. And verily God (Allah) is well able to give you succor. To those who have been driven forth from their homes for no reason than this that say 'Our Lord is God." Qur'an goes on to add, "Hath not God repelled some men by others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is ever mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down." (Qur'an 22: 39-42)

On another occasion Qur'an says, "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but don't transgress limits; for God loves not the transgressor." The verse goes on to say "And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression."(Qur'an 2: 190-193)

Muslim scholars are of the opinion that war is permitted in self defense, when other nations have attacked an Islamic state, or if another state is oppressing a section of its own people. When Muslims were to fight a war they had to maintain great discipline, avoiding injury to the innocent and use only the minimum force needed. Striking a blow in anger, even in battle, was prohibited. The prisoners of war were to be treated in a humane fashion. However, this is only a part of Jihad that Muslims are allowed to practice. A greater Jihad is struggle against one's own inner self.

The word Jihad comes from the root Arabic word "Jahd," which means to struggle or to strive. It is understood by piety minded Muslims as a positive, noble and laudatory term. That is how most apply it in their personal, social, political and military lives. The history of the Muslim rulers, on the other hand, gives us examples of those who attempted to sanctify their wars of personal aggrandizement as wars for a noble cause by applying the label Jihad to them. A few even named their war departments as the departments of Jihad. This kind of behavior may be likened to a politician's attempt to wrap him in the flag. Such exploitation of the term should not be allowed to corrupt the original or the commonly understood meaning of the word, which is to strive for the highest possible goals, struggle against injustice and practice self denial and self control to achieve the moral purity to which all piety minded people aspire.

The "holy war" concept, for which many non-Muslims use the word Jihad, is foreign to Islam. Rather, it comes from a concept first used to justify the Crusades by the Christian Church during the middle Ages. The concept of "holy war" may even go back to the time when the emperor Constantine the Great allegedly saw a vision in the sky with the inscription on the cross, "in hoc signo vinces" (in this sign you will be the victor). The Arabic term, as has been pointed out by scholars, for "the holy war" would be al-harab al-muqaddas, which neither appears in the Qur'an or the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Hadith). Prophet Muhammad's wars were defensive wars against groups who sought to eradicate Islam and the Muslims.

It is interesting and useful for social scientists or philologists to study how the meaning and usage of words differ in different communities. Ironically the word "crusade," because of its association with the crusades in the middle ages, should have had a pejorative sense to it and yet the word has acquired an ennobled meaning in the West. This in spite of the fact that the Church itself, along with most historians, acknowledge the injustice of the Crusades and the atrocities done in the name of faith. On the other hand, the word "Jihad" which means for Muslims, striving for the highest possible goal, has acquired the negative connotation of the holy war.

It is clear from even a cursory study of the Qur'an that Islam does not permit, condone or promote violence. Just the opposite, it abhors violence and allows it only in self-defense. A claim to the contrary is no more than bad fiction.

The critics of the Qur'an should remember that if the Bible were similarly quoted out of context, it would appear to be an extra ordinarily violent scripture. I will leave Graham and Robertson to defend the violence in the Bible and the history of Christianity.

Javeed Akhter is the Executive Director of The International Strategy and Policy Institute www.ISPI-USA.org His latest book is titled "The Seven Phases Of Prophet Muhammad's Life."


Taken from http://iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV0208-1720
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Matrix 11-09-2002 05:22

God Bless You!
 
Assalaamu alaikum

Servant of Allah,

Thank you very much for posting that url & article. It is perfect timing for a discussion I am ending.

I have decided to take advice from this board & move on with my discussions...their hatred only grows the more I post. I am a poor representative of Islam & wish I knew more to make my posts a little more convincing. :( I have used some of what I have learned from this board but it only enrages them further...

In any case, I have said what I wanted to say & think I shall leave it at that.

Thank you all very much for your guidance, assistance, & patience.

I still have questions & will post them...if you don't mind!

May Allah guide us all to peace & wisdom.

Matrix.

Lulua 12-09-2002 09:08

Assalaamu alaikum.

Matrix...I don't think that you are a 'poor muslim' as you have put it. We are all weak in our knowledge and experience, and that is why we should share with one another, just as we are doing here on this discussion board. The mere fact that you have come to us or other muslims with your questions and need for help, indicates quite strongly that you are not a 'poor muslim', but rather one who is seeking the help of others...which is a good sign, I think.

As for the anger rising from the non-muslims who you have been communicating with, I do not doubt that at all. Most probably, the forums which you are participating in do not have such strict regulations as what this forum does, and so you will experience there a greater surge in angry and hate-filled replies.

It is when the level of anger and hatred get to that level, that perhaps it is better to just leave it alone. State what you need to state, perhaps with proper daleel from Quran and ahadith to back it up, and then let them go along their angry way.

Not all people will see things the same way, and not all people will understand all things. And there will be many who will reject the message of Islam. Sad, but true. But then, we need to also remember that the basic responsibility upon us is to 'relay' the message...and not attempt to force it upon anyone. The rest is for them-if they choose to accept or reject it.

And in the end, these conversations are nothing of a contest-there is no winner or loser. But for those who reject the message of Islam, certainly it is they who are the losers. Not us who are muslims and remain muslims, nor Allah, nor Islam. But those who reject the message. For sadly they have had the message come to them, and yet they choose to reject.

May Allah help you, and help us all to relay that which has come to us.

And please, of course, do keep up the good work, and continue your correspondence!!

Lulua.


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