hi i would like to say first that i am a muslim
i was born one
i was always interest in religion from a young age
i read the qur'an and many hadith
at first i started to doubt many hadith
they didnt make any sense to me ...and i am talking about hadith sahih in bokhary and muslim
then i started to doubt some verses in the qur'an
example verse(2:282)
anyway ..i still believe i am a muslim ...cause overall islam makes more sense to me then any other religion i heard of
i am still young and learning ..i am 22
i know my views might change
but meanwhile ...do you think i am evil or " monafek "...
cause i dont agree with a number of hadiths or verses from the qur'an
my question is ...what should a muslim do ..if he strongly think a verse in the qur'an is wrong and fraud ?
is he still muslim ?
i believe i am not the only with this problem..
i want to be a good person ...do my best and go to heaven
but if i agree to those verses i believe are wrong ..i would be lieing to myself
i dont think God would ask us to believe in which we dont understand and which we dont agree with
so ...what do you think ??
First of all...I wish to address your opening comment...that you are a muslim...and that you were born one(indicating that you were born into a practicing muslim family). This is a phenomenon, even amongst muslim families (heredetary muslims), and not only new muslims. In fact, my experiences have showed me that 'newer' muslims tend to find out more, and know more about Islam than those 'born muslims'. A belief of Islam is that all humans are born in the 'fitra'...or the natural, human tendency of the belief of tawheed, or in other words, all humans are born muslims. It is a natural tendency of humans. It is only the parents or guardians who train and teach us humans to be what we grow into...jew, christian, or otherwise.
OK...now to address your major question at hand. Actually, the mere fact that you are even concerned about the thoughts and doubts that you are having enough to even mention it here, is sign enough to show that you are on the tendency of true islam...it is only that you are having doubts, most probably caused by whisperings of satan. Let me make to you an analogy. Satan is like a theif...the greatest of theives, actually. And...a theif does not go about stalking and stealing from a shabby shack, but rather better homes...those which are evident that there is some treasure or something of value to be stolen. It is the same with satan. He pays much attention to those on the right track (of religious belief), to tempt and sway them (as he is recorded to have sworn to do so, even in the Quran)...and whispers in their hearts things...temptations of evil deeds, or doubts of their beliefs and knowledge, attempting to sway those who will be swayed. Mankind are weak, were created weak...we are told so even in the Quran. We cannot fight satan on our own, no matter how we may think that we perhaps can...nor should we try. The prophet Mohammed (SAAW) himself...although he was much stronger in his faith than we are...could not fight him (satan) on his own...but only with the help of Allah. We should take his example...and ask Allah's protection from satan daily...particularly in our acts of worship...whether it be prayers, or reading or reciting the Quran, works and deeds of charity, or merely our daily routines and activities. Satan is ever on the war path...and it is a great and on-going war indeed. Do not let him fool you by his ability to hide behind the screen of invisibility...he is there...at every action, every recitation, and every utterance. But...with the help of the Creator and the Protector...each and every one can win and succeed against satan.
There are many throughout time who have had their doubts...do not let those fears overcome you. I suggest that you concentrate more on the Quran...the message therein...for there is no mistake therein...it is the word of Allah for mankind...a book of guidance and warning and reminder. And sincerely pray to Allah for guidance...surely for those who truly ask...He will not turn away without help and guidance...regardless of current religious practice. But...you must ask for that guidance in true sincerety.
I pray that you may ease your fears and worries, and that you may find true guidance and peace.
First let me understand your difficulty. A person who is doubt as you are "citeoh", it means that you don't have sufficient knowledge about Islam. It's perhaps a coincidence that you mentioned the verse of the Holy Quran which is the biggest verse. What do you doubt in this verse? The complete verse or the part of it?
You see brother, try your best in learning Islam, and don't teach Allah His Religion. Who ever doubts about the Quran, his/her faith is in a state of doubt, and if a faith is a state of doubt, then what ever comes is in doubt. Purify your faith with knowledge. When someone doubts about the Qur'ran he is not a believer, the Quran says, "This is the Book, whereof there is no doubt" 02:02
first i would like to thank munir and om mohamed for their replies
second
your replies fear me!
om mohamed ..
i am a living person , i am a human ... and i believe am a smart one ... i think then i believe...to believe i must understand
in the qur'an the same story repeat amongst different people and different prophets
a prophet come to a town ..tell the people and God ..real God ..or how God really is ..and what God really want from us
the people tell the prophet ...we already have a god the god of our ancestors ..
and the prophet answer them ..dont you have minds dont you use reason !!
i have a mind ..i want use reason
the verse in question say a woman testemony = one half that of a man ( only in case of signing a debt ) ...and the reason is ..a woman can forget
i dont believe this is true ...women in my life have proven to have a good memory ...they go to school and study business and business law in univercities
am i ask to believe ..that a woman with a business degree from a univercity , her testemony on a debt ...is not as good a that of a man ( he can be ignorant or with liltle or no education )
where is the reason in that ???
and no they dont have a bad memory
plus in sourat el nour i believe ..a woman testomy ( a wife ) equals that of a man ( her husband ) ..so ugh !! the qur'an want to confuse us ??
the qur'an is what GOD want to tell us ...those our God words
God ...God ...God dont do mistakes ..God dont confuse ...God even according to the qur'an itself ...want us to use our minds to reach him ...
plus hey ...first the jewish tawr'a ..and it got corrupt
second the christian bible it got corrupt again
THIRD the qur'an ...what God didnt know books dont work for us they get corrupt..they get corrupt
i dont mean to be rude or anything ..but think about it
and by the way the bible ..have a line that says ...God will protect it from corruption
you tell me its the devil !! ..thats lame ...what devil
any priest would say so to any christian who question jesus i guess ...he can tell him ...NOOOOOO its the DEVILLLLL bewaaaaare
got my point !
and mounir ...i believe in God ...why do you question my faith
because i think a line in the qur'an is wrong
what about muslim who never doubted a line ..cause they were too affraid ...passive ...not interested ..or maybe because they never read that line !!
i want to have no doubts ..thats why i question !!
i can ignore those question and doubt i have ...but what would that make of me !
an athiest i believe ...cause i would be saying what athiest says " would i questions what my mulim ancestors said ..."
and am not allowed to question ..when i did
om mohamed told me its the devil
munir told me i have weak faith
i wonder ..
anyway ...you can believe am the devil himself
faith is between me and God ...and maybe i should have kept it this way and didnt bring it here
First let me say that my position is that at times as thinking people we may come across things that don't agree with us at times. Even with the quran, it may be that a verse comes to us that we have a hard time understanding, so it is up to us to take time to understand. Yes Om Muhammad is very correct, in such instances shaytan whispers to us and makes us doubt even further. this is his job and yes at times it depends on our faith to what we want to submit to wether we agree with it or not. For Allah even says that sometimes we like a thing that is bad for us and dislike a thing that is good for us. Even the verse about beating a disobedient wife Muhammad pbuh said that he wanted one thing but Allah wanted another. It is up to us to submit to the things even if they confuse us or we disagree with them. This is all a part of being muslim. As we study and come to learn we should seek the aid of Allah to guide us to the way that is true, and to bring to us understanding for things that concern us. So with all that I believe alot of the confusion that the poster pointed out is normal.. but to believe that part of the quran is fabricated is another which is disturbing at least to me.
Now the verse in question is one that I stumbled with as well. But then i actually reflected on the whole aya rather than taking just a portion from it. For one Allah establishes that the witness of a woman is on equal level with a mans. And for the most part calls upon just witnesses with no specification in gender. So this told me that the aya in surah baqarah was not indicating a weaker womans witness.. unlike the orientalists and some muslims claim that a womans witness is worth half than a mans. If we look at the whole aya we notice that this is in a setting which may be an open market.. where strangers come into contact with each other. There is no indication that all those involved know one another let alone are related to one another. For Allah says to call upon anyone who can write, and that person can not refuse his service. So this tells me it is a stranger situation. So here you have the merchant and the customer.. calling upon anyone in the market to write the contract.. so they have to find witnesses.. these witnesses don't have to be known to them, total strangers will do. So here you have a situation where men are called upon first.. but if you cant find any two women and one man.. so if one forgets the other can remind her.. this is a protection for the woman.. since you have a STRANGER situation..what if the man forgets?? is he to meet with the stranger, unrelated woman alone to be reminded if he forgets? and if she forgets she is to call on this unrleated man to remind her? just a set up for complications.. for a mixed meeting like this between the unrelated calls for problems. People had no fear to start rumors about the prophets pbuh own wife aisha r.a do you think any would fear when it came to a common woman? I would like to see the face of my husband that i have to get together with a strange unrelated man to remind him of the contract we witnessed. So this is a protection for al involved.. here these two women can meet no problem if one forgets the other will inform her. If the man forgets.. there is no issue of him meeting an unrelated woman alone because there are TWO women.. this way all are protected from the diseased minds of those who will start rumors, from the jealousy of a spouse, from the uncertainty of family memebers, it also protects the woman physically by not meeting alone a strange man.. as well as both the man and womans private parts.. because neither will come to temptation if they have to meet to remind each other because there is always a third.
This is how i have come to understand the verse. I know there are other explanations maybe someone can shed some light for you as well. But if you have doubts, or dont understand.. instead of thinking the negative..that it is fabricated.. you need to seek Allah's guidance and ask Him to show you the way of understanding. Rejecting it because you don't understand at a period of time is not the route to take, because you may unknowingly reject Allah. So until you understand some porition of quran..just accept it as the word of Allah.. and admit you don't understand.. and seek understanding. I have found this to be the best route
ma salaam
Nzingha
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
__________________
The greatest calamity that befall the heedless is that they are ignorant of their own faults.
-Ali Hajwiri
Citeoh...no one is accusing you of anything...whether it be lack of faith, or lack of knowledge, or following the devil or being the devil...as you have implied. You asked for our advice and insight...and we all have given you our best at that. Even the best of muslims...including prophet Mohammed himself, could not fight the temptations of the devil on his own, needing to seek the guidance and help of Allah. Do not let your pride get the best of you, and be led into believing that you are strong in your faith...for you are not, and neither am I, nor is any one else these days. It is an on-going battle, fighting the temptations and whisperings of satan, and following that which has been directed for us by Allah.
Nzingha...thankyou for the wonderful insight as to 'why' this directive has been given(about the witnesses). It seems much more logical than the commonly given explanation of the weakness and tendency of women to inventing stories and changing the facts. Anyways...it is something that is in the Quran...a part of the message and directive from Allah to mankind...and something of which we are not to question as to why, but to accept and follow.
In trying to accept such things that perhaps do not agree with our own weak human desires, perhaps it is better to look to the proofs of the truth and divine revelation of the Quran, by seeing the truth in it through the creation and existence of all of nature, and then such directives become easier to understand, accept and follow.
Along this such line, I shall post, inshaAllah, in another posting, a relation of an experience by a well-known modern-day scolar of Islam. It is too long for continuing in this message here, and gets a bit into a new topic.
The question here has been raised of the happening of contradiction within the quran, stating that at one place the permission or acceptability of only one female witness, whereas in another place there is the requirement of two female witnesses. Perhaps this viewpoint or understanding will shed some light on the reasoning of such a happening.
It is not that it is contradiction, but rather of abbrogation of one verse to another. Let us remember that the quran was not revealed at only one sitting, but something which was revealed in stages, over a period of years, and many times in response or on occasion of things happening in the daily lives of the muslims of the time, remaining to be a guidance and reminder for all of mankind of all ages. In this light, let us consider for a moment, for example, the topic of liquor, or intoxicating beverages. We all know that it is a prohibition...something totally and unquestionably haram. However, that is not how it was done at the time of the revelation of the quran. It was prohitibited slowly, in stages, in order (perhaps) not to cause difficulty upon the new muslim, and in order not to scare or chase them away from islam, making it easy for them to accomplish, not causing difficulties for them in realizing their religious responsibilities. There is a verse in which it was said to have some benefits and some harm, but the harm was greater than the benefit. And then...there is another verse in which the muslims are instructed to keep away from the salat (prayer) while in a state of intoxication. And then, finally, is the verse in which all intoxicants are strictly and namely prohibited. Although not in consecutive order in the placement of the verses of the quran, one abbrogates the previous, until we have what we have today, in the finality and completeness of the message of the quran...the total prohibition of intoxicants.
Perhaps (and this is merely my understanding) the occurance of the differentiation of the verses previously mentioned, is something like this...an abbrogation of the second (in it's chronological historical relevation) over the first...and not a mistake or contradiction in the quran. The reason (again perhaps) for the first which has later been abbrogated not being removed from the final and completion of the message, is (or could be)...that it is important for us to know and realize the stages of Islam...not only for the sake of knowing history itself, but for our own benefit of becoming and evolving into better muslims. The muslims at the time of the revelation of the Quran did not become muslims overnight, nor did they know and understand the message in one sitting, but over a period of years, and in stages. We, therefore, today (as well as in all ages)...learn, discover, understand, and implement the message (similar to those early muslims) in stages, continuing the tradition, as well.
May Allah forgive me for any mistakes I have made, and lead us all to better understanding of what He wants and expects from us.
Citeoh...you might be interested to see an article I recently posted in the Social Matters Forum. It is titled 'a scholar's experience'. It might shed some light on some things in the message of the Quran.
I would like to read the article you have on naskh. From what I have studied women witnessing are not part of abrogation. I have found that many resort to abrogation in haste with no real basis for it. And there are very few, if any, insttances of naskh within the quran. Would be a good topic
ma salaam
Nzingha
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
__________________
The greatest calamity that befall the heedless is that they are ignorant of their own faults.
-Ali Hajwiri
Anybody who rejects an ayat of the Quran and suggests it is not from Allah or suggests that Allah swt made a mistake is no longer muslim.
Allah does not make mistake and the Quran is complete and saved for all time and this is part of Belief Iman - Aqeeda.
Alternatively having a personal dislike to something Allah commands is possible as Allah says you may like something bad for you and hate something good for you, but at the same time you have to leave it to seek the rahma of Allah.
This two witness = weaker women is an orientalist attack and is well used by them to give a reason when Allah swt never gave a reason - these people run when the real challenge to write a verse like that of the Quran is offered - we are told that shataan has lost hope in taking the whole of Islam away and only concentrates on attacking little pieces. I strongly add that we do not know the reason all we know is that it is better for us.
It is like when the husband is in control of spending the wealth of the family - this does not mean the wife suffers for not having money rather it is incumbent on the husband to spend on the wife hence the wealth is with both.
I would strongly say to the posting brother to realize that the shataan is very close to taking him away from islam, please learn islam to strengthen your iman.
It is like when the shataan whispers for you to delay your prayer, then miss your prayer, then to abandon prayer then to deny prayer is part of islam then finally to leave islam.
Concerning the Qur'an, I think the reply and the explanation given by the other participants are clear and enough.
When I said that in some circumstances the iman may become weak and some times it becomes strong, I was not judging your faith Brother "Citeoh".
In Ramadan, our Iman becomes stronger, because of what? We all know that. When we commit a sin, and if we do not make taubah, our iman becomes weaker and weaker.
Islam means submission, submission to what? and to whom? Do we ask ourselves? Are we submitted? Well each and every one knows for himself. Qur'an is the ONLY Book on which there's no doubt, but sometimes, some people have doubts, so let us try to understand those people who have the doubts.
When we read the Islamic History, when the Qur'an was revealed, the Makkans did not doubt about the essence of the Qur'an, but they did not accept, because it was revealed to Muhammad and not to others. When the Qur'an was read, they made noise, and so loudly so that they couldn't hear it, but once they heard Qur'an they started changing within their hearts and outwardly.
We doubt, when we don't know, once we know it and understand it, we never doubt. To every one I request to read the Qur'an and try to understand its meaning in a deep way and hesitate not in asking those who know it. The verses of the Qur'an have a deeper meaning.
i do not think the explanation of the verses given by other is enough
for one that stranger situation ..is totaly unacceptable
because the verses ..said ...choose a witness that you agree upon "meman tardawn"
second i read 2 different explanations ...
one of sheikh "sayed otb"
it said that women are incompetent in witnessing in this situation , because its a business situation and islam prefer that women stay at home and raise the kids
obviously this interpretation is totally wrong for many reason
and it only shows that even a good and respected sheikh like sayed otb would turn the facts so that the quran become free from mistakes
because ..women should work
women should study ...women wont study to stay home
some women are poor and unmarried and just have to work
some women are poor and have kids and must work to feed them
some women are just smart and like to work and realise their self full potentiel
women have proven to be as good as men in many areas of work
especialy the ares that require mental skills and not physical skills
so if islam is a true good religion its must promote working women and not vice versa ...this explanation of sayed otb destroys islam ...his effort to explain and unexplanable verse resulted in something even worst
well ..so ...this interpretation is wrong ...i went to read what another sheikh said
i read what Ibn-kaseer had to say
he said 2 women are require because women have less brain
"naqeesat akl"
i suppose refering to the hadith that said women have less religion and reason
anyway ... al shuhada says "ash hadu an la illah ila ALLAH wa an mohamed abdo wa rasooloh"
so i guess i dont have to believe or like every verse in the quran to be moslem
I believe in God and that he is only one...i believe mohamed is his prophet ...
i dont have to believe in more to be moslem
i do my best everyday
i do refer to the Quran in many and most things
but i dont wonna believe that women are mentaly inferior to men
i guess any men of us men ...could have been born a woman
we are all humans all humans are in a way alike
sure some are smarter then others ...but i dont think every man on earth is smarter then any woman
it is not acceptable to accuse every woman to be mentaly inferior to men
God made women to be mothers ...mothers raise kids all kids
would God create mothers mentaly inferior
i doubt it!
else , prove me wrong ...but bring your best to it
i am not anti-islam ...i am anti-no-brainers that many people want us to be
follow but dont question or ask !
i will question , i will doubt every verse
cause thats my only way to truly believe and have trust in my belief
>for one that stranger situation ..is
>totaly unacceptable
>because the verses ..said ...choose a
>witness that you agree upon
>"meman tardawn"
>
extending an approval to one witness over another does not necessarily indicate that all parties are known to each other. Keep in mind w/in the same aya that the witnesses can not refuse, those who are known to each other generally don't refuse each other. Keep in mind there is a mahram issue, even if they are "friendly" doesn't mean they are related which plays a big part in male and female interaction.
I wonder, is all you see in this verse a question of mental competance of women? Or are you seeing such a thing only because it tends to be the explanation of others.. ?
ma salaam
nzingha
- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i
__________________
The greatest calamity that befall the heedless is that they are ignorant of their own faults.
-Ali Hajwiri
I believe that you try understanding the verses that you thought are wrong. Nothing wrong can enter the book!
And if you are in real search of truth, then ofcourse you are not unbeliever or kafir or munafiq.... inshaAllah.
If I am of any help to you, I would be glad to do so... Please see my article specially on Quran at annoucement area called "What about Quran?" InshaAllah it may you believe in all the verses.
Or you can my discussion group called "Critical Issues and The Quran" by sending a blank email to CIssues-subscribe@topica.com
There you are open to raise any question because it basically deals with critical issues in all the religions and the back bone of this list is "Explore the Truth". You will be able to join any disscussion to add your comments. It works through the emails (mailing list) and if you dont like you can unsubscribe any time.
May Allah open our hearts to understand and accept the Truth.
and yes at times it depends on our faith to what we want to submit to wether we agree with it or not. For Allah even says that sometimes we like a thing that is bad for us and dislike a thing that is good for us. Even the verse about beating a disobedient wife Muhammad pbuh said that he wanted one thing but Allah wanted another. It is up to us to submit to the things even if they confuse us or we disagree with them. This is all a part of being muslim. As we study and come to learn we should seek the aid of Allah to guide us to the way that is true, and to bring to us understanding for things that concern us. So with all that I believe alot of the confusion that the poster pointed out is normal.. but to believe that part of the quran is fabricated is another which is disturbing at least to me.
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