Imams Speak out against Domestic Violence

Om_Mohammed · #1 10-06-2001, 12:30

Imams Urged to Speak out Against Domestic Violence

Jamaat al-Muslimeen International Press Release
(In Cooperation with Baitul Salaam Network, Atlanta)

Wife-Beating is the Act of a Coward Using Religion as Cover for Oppression of
Women Must be Condemned

Even in divorce "DO NOT TREAT THEM HARSHLY ... (The Qur'an 4:19)

From Abdullah ibn Zama': Don't beat your wife as if she is a slave.
Would you beat her and then at the end of the day have sex with her?
(Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, Sahih Bukhari)
From Abu Huraira: A woman is like a rib which will break if you try to
straighten it. You can benefit from it even if it remains bent as it was made.
(Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, Sahih Bukhari)
From Muawiya al-Qushairi: Feed and clothe (women) as well as you do yourself,
and do not beat them, and do not abuse them.
(Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, Sunan of Abu Dawud)
From Ayesha: The messenger of Allah never hit a woman or a servant. He only
raised his hand in jihad in Allah's way.
(hadith in Sahih Muslim)

Respected Imams of the mosques of America: asalamu alaikum

I pray to Allah that my words will reach you. As you are the people able to
reach out to large sections of the Ummah, especially on Fridays, I appeal to
you to speak out against the oppression of our sisters-in-Islam: the mothers,
wives, sisters, daughters of the community.

As it has been said, the community is as strong as its smallest (weakest?)
link, which is the family. If great wrongs are being done in this basic
unit, the chances of the entire collective growing into health are remote.
As you know, violence is part of the materialistic, ego-oriented culture in
which we live. Wife battering is a very common phenomenon, and several
million women are battered by their partners every year in America. A survey
in North Carolina showed that women are beaten even when they are pregnant.
Unfortunately, this JAHILIYYA CULTURE also percolates into the Muslim
community, especially among women who do not have extended families
supporting them. What makes it worse among some Muslims, is the attempt to
use Islam as a cover for the crime of wife beating.

Respected Imams: Some Muslims are distorting sura 4, verse 34 of the
Qur'an to fulfil their purposes. This verse says in part: ...the righteous
women are devoutly obedient ... These people try to distort the verse by
adding the words {to their husbands} in front of the word "obedient." The
word in Arabic is "qanitat". The same term is used in sura 33 verse 35 for
both men and women: qaniteen and qanitat. Men and women who are devoutly
obedient (to Allah). There is no basis in the Qur'an or the Hadith for the
idea that women should be obedient to their husbands.

Islamic marriage is the relationship of equals who come together
through mutual consultation and consent. The Muslim woman does not enter
marriage to have her man as some kind of a superior being. That is the Hindu
idea of marriage, not of Islam.

As the Qur'an tells us, the works of the Muslims have to be by MUTUAL
CONSULTATION, not by the dictatorship of the one over the other.

Inshallah, I plan to write to you again on this issue, to continue
discussion of the rest of sura 4, verse 34 and related issues of how some
verses of the Qur'an supercede others.

May Allah help you and give you the courage to speak out on behalf of
our sisters-in-faith.

Sincerely
Your brother-in-faith
Kaukab Siddique
Ameer, Jamaat al-Muslimeen International
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O MUSLIMS! RAISE YOUR HANDS AGAINST THE OPPRESSORS: THE HINDUS IN KASHMIR,
THE RUSSIANS IN CHECHNIA, THE MISSIONARIES IN INDONESIA, THE JEWS IN
PALESTINE. Never against your sisters-in-Islam if you claim to be followers
of Sunnah Muhammad (pbuh).

Nzingha · #2 11-06-2001, 07:50

There is no
>basis in the Qur'an or
>the Hadith for the
>idea that women should be obedient
>to their husbands.
>

well i was with the writer until he mentioned that such an idea can not be found in hadith. I have a slew of ahadith that give such a view.

nzingha

- Never do I argue with a man with a desire to hear him say what is wrong, or to expose him and win victory over him. Whenever I face an opponent in debate I silently pray - O Lord, help him so that truth may flow from his heart and on his tongue, and so that if truth is on my side, he may follow me; and if truth be on his side, I may follow him.
al-Imam Al-Shafi'i

#3 06-07-2001, 15:59

How does this fit w/ this passage? Curious.

"Righteous women are therefore obedient, ... And those you fear may be rebellious (nushuz) admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them."[55]

Nzingha · #4 06-07-2001, 16:46

The verse you pointed out is in regards to a woman who is fooling around on her husband. In Islam sexual laws tend to be strict because of the harm that it has on society. In this matter one is instructed to talk to their wives to let them know their behavior is wrong, than he is to not share her bed to let her know the severity, than he can "strike" her, and latter divorce her if he chooses. If one qualifies the stiking properly they will find the example of prophet Ayoub pbuh (if i haven't mixed up the names again) who was instructed to strike his wife with a handful of grass. this striking is not to inflict harm but to let the wife understand the severity of the situation. For if she is proved to be in an adulterous relationship harding things are required by law for her.

A wife in the same instance ie the man is messing around.. she is given an option of divorce outright.

hope that helps
nzingha

#5 06-07-2001, 17:08

Thank you for the follow up.

Asif · #6 06-07-2001, 17:10

Insha Allah your curiosity will soon end.

Although i have no idea what the "<55>" signifies, but i will ignore that.

The ayah in question is :

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct admonish them (first) (next) refuse to share their beds (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High Great (above you all). (4:34)

And the answer to your queries exists here:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating.htm

The article deals with all your confusions and queries. Insha Allah i found it interesting and i am sure you will too. Tell me if you are still confused after reading the article, i will try ask the webmaster to contact you.

But we Muslims also have certain queries which we would like Christians to answer, we're just confused you see.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "And in case men struggle together (in a fight) with one another, and the wife of the one has come near to deliver her husband out of the striking one (to save her husband), and she has thrust out her hand and grabbed hold of his private (the other man's groin), she must then get both her hands cut off, and the eyes of the men must feel no sorrow."

Ecclesiastes 25:22 "Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Women are evil????!!!). This verse has been taken from the Catholics Bible.

Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (Why can't they speak?)

Exodus 21:7-8 "And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master so that he doesn't designate her as a concubine but causes her to be redeemed, he will not be entitled to sell her to a foreign people in his treacherously dealing with her."

Insha Allah i am sure you will be able to explain to us those verses, which i incidentally found from the same site.

When Islam is compared to Christianity, or any other religion on Earth, i can without any hesitation say Islam has given women most rights. Other religions have always treated women like sub-humans. Islam has declared men and women to be equal in the sight of Allah, and this is also to be found in the Prophetic Traditions, as you will read in the article i have asked you to read.

In Islam, evil cannot be tolerated, and both men and women are punished for their evil actions, as per the Shariah.

If the woman is one who is to be sleeping with other men, then you want the husband to go to her and tell her "Honey, continue sleeping with those men, i am happy for you." Obviously he will be angry, and he has been told to FIRST warn her not to do this, i.e. continue in an act of disobedience. If she persists, then her husband will not sleep with her for a certain period of time. If she still continues with the disobedience, then she can be beaten by the husband.

After giving a wife so much chance, a person would probably kill her after this. But Islam forbids that. You must also keep in mind how Arab men were in those days, they would kill peope for honour and respect and dignity. If they would have caught their wife doing evil, they would have probably killed her. And you will observe this in that article. But Islam forbids that, and infact gives the woman so much chance, and then gives the man the right to beat his wife, to control her. And if the man has hit his wife too harshly, meaning he has been extreme, then he will be flogged. And if indulges in the same crime as the woman, then he will be flogged and the woman can take a divorce from him. So its not that if a woman flirts, then she gets punished by being hit by her husband. A man too is punished. Both are equal. If anyone in Islam does this crime, they will be punished.

Whereas in Christianity? In Christianity if a woman tries to save her husband and accidentally touches the private parts of a man, her hand will be cut. Why is it that men will not receive a similar punishment if they do a similar action with a woman?

And it must be made clear, a pious Muslim woman will never disobey her husband, so the incident of her being it shall never arise. The Prophet (SAAW) NEVER hit his wives, and in many ahadith warned men from hitting their wives. If some men do this without any reason none whatsoever, then they are WRONG. If the wife is caught being disobedient (flirting, etc.). He cannot hit her for that straight away. Please read the ayah carefully. He should warn her from doing so. Then he should stop sleeping with her, and THEN and ONLY then, if she persists does he 'beat' her. He cannot hit her face, as it was forbidden by the Prophet (SAAW). What is wrong with it? If a man does a similar action, he gets flogged, but if a woman does it she won't be punished? Men and women are both EQUAL. And if they do something wrong, they are to be punished, except that a woman at least gets warned by her husband, in which case she actually is privileged compared to the husband. After this, i believe Islam is very fair in dealing with women. Because there is NO crime being done against a woman. Crimes are punished, whether you are a man or a woman.

Alhamdulilah, i am sure after this your "confusion" must have ended. Still i advise you to read the article Insha Allah, it's good and really helpful, alhamdulilah.

Also, what about women in Christianity? I have clearly demonstrated with brother Osamaa's article's help that women and men in Islam are equal. They both are punished for "disobedience". Man flirts, he is flogged, woman flirts, her husband beats her, and that also not excessively, else the man will be beaten. Why does the woman not beat the man? because the man may try to prevent her from doing so and can beat her up if she tries to, which will be wrong, so the State punishes him. What's wrong in that? Both equal.

But women in Christianity?.....

Allah help them, Ameen.

#7 06-07-2001, 17:37

>Insha Allah your curiosity will soon
>end.

What is "Insha"?

>Although i have no idea what the "<55>" signifies, but i will ignore that.

Reference number.

>The ayah in question is :
>
>
>Men are the protectors and maintainers
>of women because Allah has
>given the one more (strength)
>than the other and because
>they support them from their
>means. Therefore the righteous
>women are devoutly obedient and
>guard in (the husband's) absence
>what Allah would have them
>guard. As to those
>women on whose part ye
>fear disloyalty and ill-conduct admonish
>them (first) (next) refuse to
>share their beds (and last)
>beat them (lightly); but if
>they return to obedience seek
>not against them means (of
>annoyance): for Allah is Most
>High Great (above you all).
>(4:34)
>
>And the answer to your queries
>exists here:
>http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating.htm

I shall see.

>The article deals with all your
>confusions and queries. Insha Allah
>i found it interesting and
>i am sure you will
>too. Tell me if you
>are still confused after reading
>the article, i will try
>ask the webmaster to contact
>you.
>
>But we Muslims also have certain
>queries which we would like
>Christians to answer, we're just
>confused you see.
>
>Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "And in case men
>struggle together (in a fight)
>with one another, and the
>wife of the one has
>come near to deliver her
>husband out of the striking
>one (to save her husband),
>and she has thrust out
>her hand and grabbed hold
>of his private (the other
>man's groin), she must then
>get both her hands cut
>off, and the eyes of
>the men must feel no
>sorrow."

Part of the Old Law, not the New.

>Ecclesiastes 25:22 "Of the woman
>came the beginning of sin,
>and through her we all
>die." (Women are evil????!!!). This
>verse has been taken from
>the Catholics Bible.

First, the Catholic Bible is not mine. Catholicism is a false religion full of heresy.

Second, wasn't no your prophet that said that he say Hell and in it the majority were women?

>Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep
>silence in the churches: for
>it is not permitted unto
>them to speak; but they
>are commanded to be under
>obedience as also saith the
>law. And if they will
>learn any thing, let them
>ask their husbands at home:
>for it is a shame
>for women to speak in
>the church." (Why can't
>they speak?)

Because men are leadings in the church. See also I Timothy. Is this any different in Islam?

>Exodus 21:7-8 "And in case a
>man should sell his daughter
>as a slave girl, she
>will not go out in
>the way that the slave
>men go out. If
>she is displeasing in the
>eyes of her master so
>that he doesn't designate her
>as a concubine but causes
>her to be redeemed, he
>will not be entitled to
>sell her to a foreign
>people in his treacherously dealing
>with her."

Again you quote the Old Law.

>Insha Allah i am sure you
>will be able to explain
>to us those verses, which
>i incidentally found from the
>same site.
>
>When Islam is compared to Christianity,
>or any other religion on
>Earth, i can without any
>hesitation say Islam has given
>women most rights. Other religions
>have always treated women like
>sub-humans. Islam has declared men
>and women to be equal
>in the sight of Allah,
>and this is also to
>be found in the Prophetic
>Traditions, as you will read
>in the article i have
>asked you to read.

Men and women are equal in Christianity too. Read the Bible w/ the New Testament and you will see it as so.

>In Islam, evil cannot be tolerated,
>and both men and women
>are punished for their evil
>actions, as per the Shariah.

Same in Christianity. All are judged equally by the Lord.

>
>If the woman is one who
>is to be sleeping with
>other men, then you want
>the husband to go to
>her and tell her "Honey,
>continue sleeping with those men,
>i am happy for you."
>Obviously he will be angry,
>and he has been told
>to FIRST warn her not
>to do this, i.e. continue
>in an act of disobedience.
>If she persists, then her
>husband will not sleep with
>her for a certain period
>of time. If she still
>continues with the disobedience, then
>she can be beaten by
>the husband.
>
>After giving a wife so much
>chance, a person would probably
>kill her after this. But
>Islam forbids that. You must
>also keep in mind how
>Arab men were in those
>days, they would kill peope
>for honour and respect and
>dignity. If they would have
>caught their wife doing evil,
>they would have probably killed
>her. And you will observe
>this in that article. But
>Islam forbids that, and infact
>gives the woman so much
>chance, and then gives the
>man the right to beat
>his wife, to control her.
>And if the man has
>hit his wife too harshly,
>meaning he has been extreme,
>then he will be flogged.
>And if indulges in the
>same crime as the woman,
>then he will be flogged
>and the woman can
>take a divorce from him.
>So its not that
>if a woman flirts, then
>she gets punished by being
>hit by her husband. A
>man too is punished. Both
>are equal. If anyone in
>Islam does this crime, they
>will be punished.
>
>Whereas in Christianity? In Christianity if
>a woman tries to save
>her husband and accidentally touches
>the private parts of a
>man, her hand will be
>cut. Why is it that
>men will not receive a
>similar punishment if they do
>a similar action with a
>woman?

You need to read the New Law and Covenant. No such thing exists there.

>And it must be made clear,
>a pious Muslim woman will
>never disobey her husband, so
>the incident of her being
>it shall never arise. The
>Prophet (SAAW) NEVER hit his
>wives, and in many ahadith
>warned men from hitting their
>wives. If some men do
>this without any reason none
>whatsoever, then they are WRONG.
>If the wife is caught
>being disobedient (flirting, etc.). He
>cannot hit her for that
>straight away. Please read the
>ayah carefully. He should warn
>her from doing so. Then
>he should stop sleeping with
>her, and THEN and ONLY
>then, if she persists does
>he 'beat' her. He cannot
>hit her face, as it
>was forbidden by the Prophet
>(SAAW). What is wrong with
>it? If a man does
>a similar action, he gets
>flogged, but if a woman
>does it she won't be
>punished? Men and women are
>both EQUAL. And if they
>do something wrong, they are
>to be punished, except that
>a woman at least gets
>warned by her husband, in
>which case she actually is
>privileged compared to the husband.
>After this, i believe Islam
>is very fair in dealing
>with women. Because there is
>NO crime being done against
>a woman. Crimes are punished,
>whether you are a man
>or a woman.
>
>Alhamdulilah, i am sure after this
>your "confusion" must have ended.
>Still i advise you to
>read the article Insha Allah,
>it's good and really helpful,
>alhamdulilah.
>
>Also, what about women in Christianity?
>I have clearly demonstrated with
>brother Osamaa's article's help that
>women and men in Islam
>are equal. They both are
>punished for "disobedience". Man flirts,
>he is flogged, woman flirts,
>her husband beats her, and
>that also not excessively, else
>the man will be beaten.
>Why does the woman not
>beat the man? because the
>man may try to prevent
>her from doing so and
>can beat her up if
>she tries to, which will
>be wrong, so the State
>punishes him. What's wrong in
>that? Both equal.
>
>But women in Christianity?.....

>Allah help them, Ameen.

Good day.

#8 06-07-2001, 17:48

Also, what of this?

The translator of Mishkat Al-Masabih wrote in a footnote of Fatwa by Qazi Khan that said beating the wife mildly is

"allowed in four cases (1) When she does not wear fineries though wanted by the husband, (2) When she is called for sexual intercourse and she refuses without any lawful excuse, (3) When she is ordered to take a bath [to clean herself] from impurities for prayer and she refuses and (4) When she goes abroad without permission of her husband."[60]
In another footnote the translator of Mishkat Al-Masabih said,

"No wife shall refuse her husband what he wants from her except on religious grounds ie. at the time of menstrual flow or fasting. Some theologians regard this refusal as unlawful as the husband may get enjoyment from his wife in other ways, by embracing, kissing etc. The duty of the wife is to give him comforts in his bed whenever he wants her."[61] (emphasis added)

Asif · #9 07-07-2001, 00:57

"Second, wasn't no your prophet that said that he say Hell and in it the majority were women."

Yep, he sure said so. And there is a very simple reason behind it. Women generally outnumber men in terms of population. Example, 52 % of the world today is female. And the population of females is expected to continue outnumbering that of men. The higher the population, the higher the chances of people not accepting Islam or not being obedient to the Shariah. Simple as that. The hadith nowhere says women are evil. Infact some women can beat men in piety, and can have a higher rank than men in terms of piety.

"Is this any different in Islam?"

Firstly, women in Islam generally pray at home, as there is a greater reward for them to pray at home. But there are many women who go to the mosque, and of'course they are not allowed to mix with the men, just as men are not allowed to mix with them, thus they have a seperate section of the mosque for themselves. But no, in the mosque, they talk, they can ask questions, and this takes place. Unlike the Church, where it is considered a shame for the woman to talk at all, and she can only ask her husband.

Insha Allah, i will also try to get a hand on the NT.

Asif · #10 07-07-2001, 01:09

I do not have the book in mention, nor have i ever read it. But a simple thing to be noted, the Qazi says the wife can be beaten mildly. Sister Nzingha has given a very good example of mildly (Prophet Ayuub striking his wife with a handful of grass). This is what mildly is. And, moreover, he cannnot do this straight away. The first 2 conditions are to come into action, then the 3rd one.

Going out for a woman without a mahram (someone from the immediate family) is forbidden. This is clear. And it is a disobedience of Allah.

If she is told to have a bath, and she doesn't, that is a disobedience of Allah, again. Because if she doesn't have a bath, then she can't pray, and may end up missing her prayer. This is very wrong. Even Muslim children, if they do not pray, for any reason, their parents have every right to beat them. And, i think had this not been done, most of us kids would never learn to follow Islam. The law on the kids being hit by the parents if they do not pray (And the hitting should not be "extreme" because he/she is only a kid) is very good. I am 16, and if i do not pray, my mom may still decide to hit me, after of'course warning me. Disobedience of Allah is punishable, whether man, woman or a child who has come of age (crossed puberty).

And you yourself have answered yourself. "Hitting mildly" in case of disobedience. And as the ayah is clear, after the first 2 conditions. and sis Nzingha has given us an example of hitting mildly. I do not think grass really hurts. Do you?

Good Day to you too

#11 07-07-2001, 01:26

Assalam-malaykum
MashAllah it is the first time i have visted this site and my eyes fell upon this messege 'imams speak out against domestic vilonce' I then c the number of responses to it so i thought i may add one more.One of the things that Muhummad (saw) bought to man kind was the mercy and understanding towards women, of being kind and just to them, giving them there rights which Allah has commanded his worshipers to fufill. I have to say u borthers have had a good disscussion over it and made some very good points. But my dear bothers u who i would if given the chance would shed my blood for because u to me are muslims whos blood Allah has made more sacred then the holy kaba its self let us not exclude our sister,in Islam, from this bound that we InshAllah should have for one another and give them there rights.
However in times like these it makes my heart full of sorrow that we can have a long discussion on the rights of women when when the right off Allah has been taken away. We ask of the imams to speak on issues of womens rights and they all rush to quench our thurst. Yet tell me why dont they tell us about Allahs rights? Of how Allah gave us this Quran not just to read or to put up on the shelf but to implement it in our lifes. So tell me why dont they tell us that there is haram upon our heads if we do not be governed buy it? why dont u ask them to tell us is it permissible for us to go to the courts of people in this whole world who jugde other than with Allahs Quran and do we not commit shirk if we do? O brothers of the ummah give Allahs rights and InshAllah he will give u yours and also your womens rights. Do not follow the fotsteps of the jews and cristian and take for worship these imams who withhold from u the sorce of this religion 'that Allahs book is the only legislation we should be ruled by' and any other is batil and if we accept it we will be burnt with the likes of Pharoh and Haman. I ask of u only one Question to ask ur self do we really have faith in Allah the why Allah wants us to have or do we have it the because of what the imam tells us???
I make Duawa than Allah guides us all to the stright path.
Assalam-mlakum

Asif · #12 07-07-2001, 01:42

Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah sister !

First of all, welcome to IWC.

I agree with you that it is a shame that people question about 'Women's rights in Islam". When Islam is the first religion on Earth which brought women their rights, and gave them a status equal to men. People ask, why is a woman covered, ti is against her human rights. Subhan Allah, what about Allah's rights? he Has asked women to cover themselves so that they do not fall prey to the evil desires of some evil men. Is the wife equal to the husband? She surely is. If she wouldn't be, then why is it that it is in Islam that marriages are most successful? It is not man who has ordered her to do anything. Infact, i will now leave it to my sisters in Islam to answer if Islam or Allah Has taken away your rights?

As a woman in a local newspaper here said :
"Allah Has given us rights that were never granted to us by men. And Allah Has done justice with us, and Who does better justice than Allah? Can you name such a being?"

But if that is what is being questioned, then we are here to answer. But at the same time if you wish you may continue other discussions.

And i would in the end like to post Surah Al Faatiha, as a dua for all of us, Insha Allah.

In the name of Allah Most Gracious Most Merciful

1. Praise be to Allah the Cherisher and Sustainer of the World.
2. Most Gracious Most Merciful.
3. Master of the Day of Judgment.
4. Thee do we worship and Thine aid we seek.
5. Show us the straight way.
6. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured. Not of those on whom is indignation brought down, nor of the astray.

Ameen.

Asif · #13 07-07-2001, 02:25

Just a few verses from the Bible (NT) i was wondering about.

1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

A woman cannot teach a man? Unless i have misunderstood this verse. We do have many female Muslim scholars. Infact the Prophet's wives used to teach the Sahabah (Companions of the Prophet) much.

Romans 7:2 "For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage."

A woman cannot divorce or take divorce from her husband as long as he is alive?

1 Corinthians 7:13 "And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him."

1 Corinthians 11:3 "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

1 Peter 3:5 "For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, "

This means that man does have authority over a woman in Christianity, but not a woman over a man.

1 Corinthians 7:1 "Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry."

Why? At least it saves a person from committing adultery. In Islam it is good for a man to marry. But why not so in Christianity?

1 Corinthians 11:5-10 "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels."

So a woman's head is to be shaved if she doesn't cover her head during prayer, am i right?

Asif · #14 07-07-2001, 02:53

"Second, wasn't no your prophet that said that he say Hell and in it the majority were women."

I did more research on this. This is what our Prophet (SAAW) said exactly:

Sahih Bukhari, The book of Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you."

I do not understand what you find wrong in that. Will you tell me what is wrong in that? If a woman disobeys her husband and does not appreciate any good he does, and rather says he has never done good to her, then do you think this is right? Read the hadith carefully and tell me. Has the Prophet (SAAW) declared women who are pious and obedient to their husbands to be in Hell? He mentioned disobedient women. If a man mistreats a woman, what do you think will be his destination? Before shooting arrows in the dark, it would be wise for you to learn Islam. All the Christians who come here with such an intention should first learn Islam. If you try to refute it without even studying it, then you will be easily refuted, as demonstrated.

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. (The Noble Quran 4:34)"

A man has clearly been declared the protector of a woman. And he should treat her well. And if he doesn't, then he is in a loss. But if he does, and his wife isn't thankful, then she is in a loss. Anything wrong you see?

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said "Paradise is under the feet of the (good) mothers." Now, perhaps you will say Islam is not fair to men. Because Paradise is under the feet of good mothers, not good fathers.

Also, when a marriage takes place, women receive Mahar "marriage gift". But men receive nothing, even if the woman is rich and the man poor. Now will you say Islam treats men unfairly?

But i have posted some verses from the NT which you may help me understand better.

#15 07-07-2001, 15:57

This has been most interesting.

But this is how I come away from all of our chatting. My knowledge of Islam is limited, and you have been enlightening. But your knowledge of Christianity is also limited as you don't understand what he verses mean.

While I enjoy sharing our faith, I see no reason to argue them as both parties are "shooting in the dark."

Good day and peace.