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  #16  
Old 09-04-2006, 19:38
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Tayeb Tayeb is offline
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Dear John,

I am against bigotry. To talk about Catholic church as if it has ever been in defense of democracy, when its internal system isn't democratic at all, to talk about working-class and having no sympathy towards it as demonstrated from your response to my last post in this thread.

Instead of coming in favour of working-class people that were murdered and exploited by Franco with the help of Catholic Church you ignore them altogether.

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #17  
Old 09-04-2006, 20:39
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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Tayeb,
If you really want an unbiased account of Spanish Civil war then Wikipedia it.

"
Many of these deaths, however, resulted not from military operations but the brutal mass killings perpetrated on BOTH SIDES. The war started with military uprisings throughout Spain and its Colonies, which were followed by Republican reprisals against the Church,
"

Had the Democrats won in Spain then its quite possible WW2 would not have occured. The Vatican backed Franco because the republicans were getting more and more dominated by Stalinist communists. So perhaps WW3 would have started earlier. I have a great deal of time for the working class, but of course this does not go to the point of smashing the MIDDLE CLASS. No in a REAL DEMOCRACY there is room for some wealth. I don't hate the rich simply because they are rich, I hate rich CORRUPT people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War

I can't believe that you seriously lay all the blame on the right, when in fact the whole situation was just generally awful. I can see by looking at your views on the Spanish civil war you are a person unwilling to compromise to find solutions.

It is you who has admitted to being a wealthy businessman and against giving the vote to working class muslims. You appear to want them to do as YOU and your GROUP want rather than to listen to what THEY want.

John
  #18  
Old 09-04-2006, 20:42
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Unhappy New Poll: Is Islam Under Attack?

I do not care about Sheikh Usamah because he is a millionaire or billionaire and he does not allow his wealth to pervert him. According to Peter Bergen's most recent book, The Osama I Know, which is a series of quotes from interviews of people who knew him, he did not even have air conditioning in his modest home in the Sudan. He lived with the utmost simplicity and piety, unlike spoiled Sheikhs with their luxuriant homes. He does not live on whims. I do not think a true democracy can even be a reality in any country because it will always be based on a capitalist system, which does not address the needs of most of the masses and you are wrong when you say that I don't care about the Muslim working class people, Allah (swt) did not give the Quran only to the wealthy, he gave it to all. He wants the duas and supplications from all, from the poorest of the poor, to the richest of the rich, in his eyes we are all of the same value. He does not say to the wealthy Sheikhs do not bother me with your problems, you have what you need so I do not need to hear from you. He may be disgusted with some of the arrogance of some of them, but he wants everyone to know him. I say that no country has a true democracy because for the most part, they don't. The US decided it's people were not capable to voting for laws themselves so we needed to have intermediaries who could intrepret them for us and vote for us. Most of the people in the US do not support the war in Iraq, yet the legislators go along with the President anyway, or he will override their objections and do it anyway. Yet this is the democracy we want to help the world achieve. Working class people everywhere have to reject being slaves to governments and governing systems that do not represent them. That is the only hope their is. In addition to that, we cannot allow them to disregard Islam in the systems they set up, be it financial, legal etc. which is what has happened. Islam is under attack because each time someone disputes one of the laws as being anti-Islamic, they are told nobody wants draconian stone age Shariah laws implemented. That is the mind set. So yes Islam is under attack in many ways. Do you think the introduction of Playboy magazine in Jakarta over the last week is an attack on Islam? I do. What does it seek to do?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
oi ginap,

you care NOTHING for the muslim working class people. [ADMIN: insulting word removed and given 3 warning points - it isn't first time you have used insulting words - control yourself John or you'll be banned from here! My apologies to sr ginap]

Look at the list of corruption tables you will see ICELAND is the least corrupt nation on the planet followed by most of the other scandinavian states. This is where modern WORKING CLASS democracy originated from.

This is what democractic WIKIPEDIA stays about corruption:

"
Some argue that the following conditions are favorable for corruption:

1 Concentration of power in decision makers who are not practically accountable to the people.
2 Democracy absent or dysfunctional. See illiberal democracy.
3 Lack of government transparency (Freedom of information) in decision making.
4 Contempt for or negligence of exercising freedom of speech or freedom of the press.
"

Yeah, you bow down to the whims of your billioniare shieks, or you can stand up and be COUNTED.... I am not a THING, I am a free man and I will not be made a fool of by you billionaire scum bags. I demand to be heard!!!
  #19  
Old 09-04-2006, 20:43
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I'm talking about post-civil war, Franco's dictatorship to 1975, when last execution was done.
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  #20  
Old 09-04-2006, 20:50
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Unhappy New Poll: Is Islam Under Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
Its immoral to come up with stuff like this:

"
but to be able to accomplish this, they must eliminate Islam because the Muslims who live in the countries they want to take over will object to being forced to adopt and accept Western ways. Why does France ban the hijab?
"

With no backing citations, or evidence of any kind. Islam was not banned when most of the Middle East was in French, Spanish and UK hands. We were not nice to Arabic people but we had nothing against their religion.

so hence the word (and its also a lie to say france bans head scarves - it does not - it simply insists on everyone wearing school uniforms at school. People can wear what they want in their own time).
No country can ban Islam overnight, it is a long term subtle assault on it and all Muslims. If you doubt it, look at how Muslims are treated in any country, in France it is a flimsy excuse that the hijab was not part of the school uniform and thus could not be accepted, it was dis-allowing the muslimahs to practice their religion which is necessary in living their lives. They cannot be Muslimahs only in the privacy of their own homes and in the mosque, because Islam is not solely a religion but a way of life based on religious law. So then they have to accept that they will be limited on where they can go to school because their religion is not accepted there; how can you think that is not an attack on Islam?
  #21  
Old 09-04-2006, 22:30
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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LOL,
Of course its not an attack on Islam.

You do not immigrate to a country that is world famous for its non-theistic
school system and then call trying to change the non-theistic school system an attack on Islam. The TRUTH is 100% the reverse, Islamic clothing is an attack on the non-theistic school system. No one is FORCING muslim people to immigrate into France. No one is forcing muslim children to go to French state schools. Families are making a choice to come to France and to go to state schools. Its their choice. You are the attacker. Lets at least get our FACTS right before we can even begin to discuss whether your attack is right or wrong.

So many lies - what is the point. Who are you trying to talk to? What point is there in lying? why do you bother? Who is fooled by your unbiased nonsense.

From Wikipdia:
"
Since 1905, France has had a law requiring separation of church and state, prohibiting the state from recognising or funding any religion. Schools directly operated by the national or local governments must not endorse or promote any religious dogma (whether endorsing an existing religion or endorsing atheism or any other philosophy). Schools funded totally or in part by the national and local governments by law must not force students into religious education; they should remain equally accessible to children of any, or no, faith. For example, even though a majority of the population nominally professes Catholicism (although far fewer regularly practice Catholicism), government-operated French schools have no communal prayers, religious assemblies, or Christian crosses on the walls. The Constitution of France says that France is a laïque (roughly, secular) Republic.
"

For ONCE IN YOUR LIFE WHY DON'T YOU TRY TO HAVE A RATIONAL CONVERSATION INSTEAD OF TALKING CARP NONSENSE TO YOURSELF.
some people, it beggers belief!

John

John
  #22  
Old 10-04-2006, 10:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
LOL,
Of course its not an attack on Islam.

You do not immigrate to a country that is world famous for its non-theistic
school system and then call trying to change the non-theistic school system an attack on Islam. The TRUTH is 100% the reverse, Islamic clothing is an attack on the non-theistic school system. No one is FORCING muslim people to immigrate into France.
Dear John,

There you're again entering to ethnicity as if Islam is professed by any particular group of aliens. In fact more and more of french are reverting to Islam. Islam encompasses diferent races, cultures, languages etc., just like I might say your faith catholicism.

The problem is that lacity in France is from Napoleon's time. The Islamic clothing wasn't an issue until racist and xenophobic french discovered they could target Muslims specially. If this enforcing was old I'd agree with you.

Catholic nuns and priests, also wearning ostensably religious clothing, were never targeted. The law was made to target a specific group of mostly french nationals who happen to be Muslims. Even if they weren't and they were foreigners they are citizens and have rights too.

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #23  
Old 10-04-2006, 10:43
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Dear John,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
Tayeb,
If you really want an unbiased account of Spanish Civil war then Wikipedia it.

"
Many of these deaths, however, resulted not from military operations but the brutal mass killings perpetrated on BOTH SIDES. The war started with military uprisings throughout Spain and its Colonies, which were followed by Republican reprisals against the Church,
"

Had the Democrats won in Spain then its quite possible WW2 would not have occured. The Vatican backed Franco because the republicans were getting more and more dominated by Stalinist communists. So perhaps WW3 would have started earlier. I have a great deal of time for the working class, but of course this does not go to the point of smashing the MIDDLE CLASS. No in a REAL DEMOCRACY there is room for some wealth. I don't hate the rich simply because they are rich, I hate rich CORRUPT people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War

I can't believe that you seriously lay all the blame on the right, when in fact the whole situation was just generally awful. I can see by looking at your views on the Spanish civil war you are a person unwilling to compromise to find solutions.

It is you who has admitted to being a wealthy businessman and against giving the vote to working class muslims. You appear to want them to do as YOU and your GROUP want rather than to listen to what THEY want.

John

I repeat I was talking about post-civil war, Franco's dictatorship to 1975, when last execution was carried out.

Is it unpalatable to your catholicism to admit that the catholic church was part and parcel of a modern day genocide in Spain? They were collaborators of Franco's fascist dicatatorship?

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #24  
Old 10-04-2006, 11:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
For ONCE IN YOUR LIFE WHY DON'T YOU TRY TO HAVE A RATIONAL CONVERSATION INSTEAD OF TALKING CARP NONSENSE TO YOURSELF.
some people, it beggers belief!
John: I am warning you moderate your language. I haven't given you extra points but I know you mispelled the word in bold. I know fully well your intentions in mispelling. You risk being banned from myiwc.com.

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #25  
Old 10-04-2006, 19:46
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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tayeb,
look at your last posts.

Can you honestly say, with your hand on your heart, that you are in any way at all trying to have an honest conversation?

what you appear to be saying is:

"Catholics were awful in Spain during time of Franco so therefore is valid that Muslims can be awful now"

three errors at least here:
1) Pope Paul VI was anti-franco. 2) Opus Dei (based in spain) was netral (both "facts" are available on wikipedia. 3) Two wrongs do not make a right.

I haven't even bothered to discuss your French stuff, its not worthy of a comment.


John
  #26  
Old 10-04-2006, 20:14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
tayeb,
look at your last posts.

Can you honestly say, with your hand on your heart, that you are in any way at all trying to have an honest conversation?

what you appear to be saying is:

"Catholics were awful in Spain during time of Franco so therefore is valid that Muslims can be awful now"
Dear John,

Apart from Megiddo I rarely find a christians who wants to have an honest discussion here. Tell me did I say what you have put in my lips?

Anyhow will you at least be honest and admit that the catholic church collaborated with Franco's regime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
three errors at least here:
1) Pope Paul VI was anti-franco. 2) Opus Dei (based in spain) was netral (both "facts" are available on wikipedia. 3) Two wrongs do not make a right.
I think you're lost out on popes. Pius XII was the pope when the civil war finished. He was succeeded by Pope John XXIII (1958-1963) and Paul VI (1963-1978). Franco's regime ended in 1975 when he died.

On Opus Dei check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei_and_politics

"Some of Franco's ministers were from Opus Dei."

So much about Opus Dei peace lovers.

"... José Maria Escrivá, founder of Opus Dei... insisted that with Hitler's help the Franco government has saved Christianity from the communism".

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #27  
Old 10-04-2006, 20:48
Netcurtains3 Netcurtains3 is offline
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I didn't think it worth while mention Pope John as his Vatican 2 obviously shows him as a liberal. I'm surprised you feel you need to argue that John was a Franco-ite.

Wikipedia says:
"
("Work of God") was, according to some historians, one of the most most influential Catholic lay group during the Franco period together with the ACNP or the National Catholic Association of Propagandists, who was influential both in the early and late years of the Franco period. [1] Opus Dei denies any political aims, and some historians and journalists argue that it was (and remains) politically neutral. Others underline the conservative tone of all of its members.
"

I think you will find most MODERN research (eg without emotional baggage or the early post franco yearS) will say Opus Dei was neutral.

Thats enough.
I've had here for a while.
Its all words that cannot be said.... It really is seriously that bad.

I'm off for a while.

John
  #28  
Old 10-04-2006, 22:37
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Question New Poll: Is Islam Under Attack

None of the Muslims who wanted to go to that school sought to change the school in any way, nor force or encourage others to adopt their religious beliefs, they went there because of the educational curriculum. Islamic clothing is an attack on their school system? A Hijab is a personal choice, it is not attacking anyone, or asking anyone else to wear one. The students are not voicing their religious or political views, they are only there to learn. There are plenty of mujahid commanders children who go to attend schools in London, do they have to want to grow up like the Queen or Tony Blair and endorse their beliefs because they are in that country? No, they just want the technical education they cannot get in Afghanistan. You are right no one is forcing Muslim children to go to French schools, but why should they be denied the right to go to any school, simply because their religion requires their head be covered in public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
LOL,
Of course its not an attack on Islam.

You do not immigrate to a country that is world famous for its non-theistic
school system and then call trying to change the non-theistic school system an attack on Islam. The TRUTH is 100% the reverse, Islamic clothing is an attack on the non-theistic school system. No one is FORCING muslim people to immigrate into France. No one is forcing muslim children to go to French state schools. Families are making a choice to come to France and to go to state schools. Its their choice. You are the attacker. Lets at least get our FACTS right before we can even begin to discuss whether your attack is right or wrong.

So many lies - what is the point. Who are you trying to talk to? What point is there in lying? why do you bother? Who is fooled by your unbiased nonsense.

From Wikipdia:
"
Since 1905, France has had a law requiring separation of church and state, prohibiting the state from recognising or funding any religion. Schools directly operated by the national or local governments must not endorse or promote any religious dogma (whether endorsing an existing religion or endorsing atheism or any other philosophy). Schools funded totally or in part by the national and local governments by law must not force students into religious education; they should remain equally accessible to children of any, or no, faith. For example, even though a majority of the population nominally professes Catholicism (although far fewer regularly practice Catholicism), government-operated French schools have no communal prayers, religious assemblies, or Christian crosses on the walls. The Constitution of France says that France is a laïque (roughly, secular) Republic.
"

For ONCE IN YOUR LIFE WHY DON'T YOU TRY TO HAVE A RATIONAL CONVERSATION INSTEAD OF TALKING CARP NONSENSE TO YOURSELF.
some people, it beggers belief!

John

John
  #29  
Old 11-04-2006, 09:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netcurtains3
I didn't think it worth while mention Pope John as his Vatican 2 obviously shows him as a liberal. I'm surprised you feel you need to argue that John was a Franco-ite.

Wikipedia says:
"
("Work of God") was, according to some historians, one of the most most influential Catholic lay group during the Franco period together with the ACNP or the National Catholic Association of Propagandists, who was influential both in the early and late years of the Franco period. [1] Opus Dei denies any political aims, and some historians and journalists argue that it was (and remains) politically neutral. Others underline the conservative tone of all of its members.
"

I think you will find most MODERN research (eg without emotional baggage or the early post franco yearS) will say Opus Dei was neutral.

Thats enough.
I've had here for a while.
Its all words that cannot be said.... It really is seriously that bad.

I'm off for a while.

John
Dear Johon,

Your holding onto Wikipedia is partial. You write what pleases you. The 200,000 and over who died under oppression of Franco's regime are a reality that you can't whitewash, but then eurocentrics like to whitewash everything and not recognise how awful they have been. We know of the secret linls (and even double role) of the Catholic Church with Nazism. I witnessed how the Catholic Chruch worked with portuguese fascist regime of Salazar and later Caetano in Mozambique, so don't talk about innocence of Pope Paul VI, as if he didn't know of massacre of Wiryamu (Mozambique) etc.

Anyhow Pope Paul VI's role can be accounted from 1963 to 1978, but on the whole he didn't change the policies of Catholic Church.

My aim really to unmask once for all the connection you make between democracy and catholic church as if it were any key of civilised behaviour. It's a joke as really you adon't know the bloody history of Catholic Church. On Jose Maria Escrivá do you know what he thought of Jews?

Ma'a-salaama,
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  #30  
Old 11-04-2006, 13:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayeb
I am against bigotry.
Can you describe in your words what bigotry is? I think you are confused. Those who are religious intolerant are bigots. Those who are opposed to free speech are bigots. Those who are for censorship are bigots. Those who lift a single finger over an apostate, are bigots. But in your words, can you describe bigotry?

Here is a definition from a dictionary for you:
(1) stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. (2) actions, beliefs, prejudices, of a bigot. (3) to be so emotionally or subjectively attached to one's own beliefs as to be unthinkably hostile to all others who disagree.
 


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