You have your own worldview of whatever you thing of your self-righteneous. You cannot accuse us here of being intolerant as we allow differing views and you are an example. But remember your freedom ends where my starts. Hence we have rules here, as in any civilised place.
The hat of bigotry doesn't fit me. In fact Netcuratains - I think you have chosen to be his advocate - says catholicism is synonimous of democracy and they apart and parcel of the same. I say pure bigotry what he has been saying because he also says that besides being catholic he is atheist. This a true bigotry, you can't be a believer and unbeliever at the same time. You can't be believer in Jesus and say there are doubts he ever existed.
I advise you to read what Netcurtains has been saying before coming to his defense.
Tayeb, I quoted a single sentence to focus on the definition of a single word. You have formerly called me a bigot, and on another thread here you say the USA's foreign policy is bigotry. What does the word bigotry mean to you? What is your definition for the word bigot or bigotry?
If I understand your examples here... are you saying that you think bigotry means a person who you think has conflicting beliefs?
Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to his or her prejudices even when these prejudices are challenged or proven to be false, often advocating and defending these prejudices in a rude and intolerant manner. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or worldview such as racism, religion, nationalism or homophobia or Islamophobia.
I don't recall ever called you a bigot. It'd be quite a strong word.
That is not a very good definition but it works. The religious intolerant are clearly bigots. Those who are opposed to free speech are bigots because when their prejudices (beliefs) are challenged they fight back by suppressing the ability of others to have a voice. The best anti-bigotry is unilateral freedom of speech. Those who censor are bigots because again, suppressing the beliefs that others have expressed no matter how intolerable or illogical, is bigotry. Those who lift a finger over an apostate from any religion are bigots.
Many people within the USA most definitely have been bigots, having censored and been religious intolerant of others. It was by witnessing their own actions internally that they have learned what bigotry is... that is why censorship is a big mistake, because it defeats the ability of people to learn from each other.
Bigotry certainly can apply to people who are pro-democracy, pro-communism, pro-socialist, pro-dictatorship, or any other form of governing. If people unjustly censor, kill, or otherwise suppress the voice of people who have differing viewpoints... it is bigotry. However a police officer enforcing a law that was developed by the people is NOT bigotry. You are welcome to have the beliefs that theft, rape and murder are actually good and that you are entitled to them, but when you do them to society then justice would mean society can do them back to you.
I recognize from your viewpoint the USA are bigots for enforcing democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq. If that was the motivation of the people of the USA you are correct... and for some it is. But NOT removing Saddam and bringing him to justice would be a crime, and NOT removing training camps in Afghanistan after 9/11, given the defiance of the Taliban to remove them, would also be an injustice. If today those people wish to censor themselves or be religious intolerant that is their choice and mistake... it would be bigotry to force them to be tolerant of each others religions, and bigotry to remove their ability to censor themselves. However the moment society (a country) is intolerant of an individual or an individual is intolerant of society (their country), it is resolvable by justice. If you have a right to attack me for my beliefs then I have a right to attack you. When it is "Just us" then it is bigotry or hypocrisy. For example, whatever apostate you kill for no other reason than their beliefs, has a right to kill you for no other reason than your beliefs.
Being homophobic, Islamophobic, religion-phobic, democra-phobic, or any other belief is not bigotry, unless those people are unjustly rude and intolerant. It is NOT bigotry to not accept other people's beliefs... it is bigotry to not accept people with different beliefs than your own. Intolerance here means preventing others from judging for themselves what is right. I defend the right of every individual to be a racist, rapist, murderer, thief, homo, religious, democratic, or believer in any belief... but when society, the people, equally return the action it is a matter of justice. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
Tayeb despite your many attempts to be a self appointed representative, you do not speak for other people whether considered Muslim, Christian, or Arab. So why should anyone judge a religion or race by you? Why should anyone judge you by a religion or race?
I have asked you concrete questions and you haven't responded so I conclude that in fact you believe in what I have asked you on, as you could say clearly with no otherwise.
Your preaching and missionary activity is a self delusion because Muslims will never accept Jesus as a god or son of God. He was and is a prophet of God, there was nothing divine in him.
On Palestine, on Iraq, and elsewhere Muslims have already clear opinions and know these problems reflect the encroachment of a new wave of Crusaders. Desguised and behind NGOs are missionaries like you trying to convert Muslims, offering them money and worldly benefits. First bomb them then offer them Bibles is their motto.
Tayeb, like the word 'democracy' or 'censorship', the word bigot is not in the bible or the Qur'an. It requires debate and I asked you for your definition. You said you hate bigotry and you have formerly called me a bigot, along with Americans in general and Jews or Israel in general, so I thought it might be good to nail down what exactly you think bigotry is. I am happy with the answer.
According to the written Gospels, Jesus was a Son of God and a Son of Man who has great faith and in whom great faith is placed. I was of the opinion we are all God's children... is that not the case? I have a biological father so am I not a son of man too? You are welcome to believe as you wish.
Your concrete questions are as concrete as silly putty... they are generalizations where there is clearly a discrepancy between us what a Muslim is.
You try to speak of the clear opinions of Muslims that you clearly don't know. You don't even know the opinion of your family and friends until they open their mouths... so either your eyes see the unseen and the Holy Spirit tells you the thoughts of billions of people, or God forbid you conjecture and lie about what their opinion is.
If you can’t use google it translates to:
” God is most downtrodden …”
I guess this means a TRUE muslim sees god in African homosexual AIDS victims and beaten women in Afghanistan. God is on the 8:30 Northern Line as a crushed sardine and a drug addict in Edinburgh’s Westerhales council estate.
God certainly is not a man who owns a gun
Original question was "Is Islam under attack? " I read all the discussions and understood about it.. so... so even you discussed.
We could also ask is Europe under Islam attack? Yes it is and it has been a long time. I remember when I was just a little girl (8 or 9) and at school my history teatcher told that "Islam" is coming to Europe. He told it like the snake would come to Paradise!
I afraid many years that "snake" called Islam, then I met sensible, nice muslims and later I became muslim.
But is Islam under attack? What Islam and whose Islam? I am personally supporter that Islam what Hamas represent and it is not moderate Islam at all. In Europe I seem to be as fundamentalist and at the same time I am not; I am member of communist party (auts); pasifist (auts), feminist (auts) and even accept ***s (AUTS) and I am fundamentalist. I support those people whose call "suicide bombers" as martydom operations"; I call it as resistance.
I see that you are a member of the Communist party.
Can you tell me why Marx says this in the very first line of the Manifesto:
A spectre is haunting Europe -- the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies.
As an amatuer psychologist I think people put their pet hates at the top of lists.
It seems to me that this Jewish, athiest man (Marx) living in protestant/orthodox europe hated Catholics and associated spiritual beliefs (Spectre) more than anything else.
So why do Communists hate the Catholic church more than any other religion ?
IMHO, its because there was only one type of Communist society that has ever succeeded and that is communities of Monks. If you read "How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization" the truth comes out....
This is one of those eye-opening books that put to rest widely accepted but nonetheless misguided notions about the past. In 225 information-packed pages Tom Woods reveals how, in the aftermath of the collapse of the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church single-handedly revived and rebuilt Western civilization. The Benedictine monks, for example, transformed wasteland and swamps into fertile fields, harnessed water power, and bred healthier strains of livestock. The Jesuits became pre-eminent in astronomy and developed a scientific approach to archaeology. The Church fostered village schools and the great universities of Paris, Bologna, Oxford, and Cambridge; operated hospitals and orphanages; sheltered and fed the poor; and formulated the idea of basic human rights. Thanks to this book, people who use the term "medieval" as an insult are going to be awfully embarrassed.
Yes Communism does work - but Catholic Communism is the REAL thing because it has a 2000 year track record. The concept of Monks developed in Egypt and then moved to Ireland.
Or another reviewer:
That said, I half expected to see a Chapter on Gregor Mendel, the Augustinian abbot and father of genetics. How this could be overlooked was in my mind a huge oversight (and otherwise 5 stars). Another reviewer mentions music. The contributions are good and wide-reaching, but one only wonders what else might be missing. It definitely needs a 2nd edition and it needs to be in paperback to reach a wider audience. The cover art is exquisite.
If you want to know what religious persecution is then this is it - in Spain between 1936 and 1939 at least 6,832 priests and religious were martyred, including 13 bishops. Or in Russia up to the 1970s. During the first five years of Soviet power, the Bolsheviks executed 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and over 1,200 Russian Orthodox priests. Many others were imprisoned or exiled. Believers were harassed and persecuted. Most seminaries were closed, and publication of most religious material was prohibited. By 1941 only 500 churches remained open out of about 54,000 in existence prior to World War I.
I hate a victim culture. Get a life!
Last edited by Netcurtains3 : 09-07-2006 at 09:46.